Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 26: Everything Is Everything: Transpersonal Therapy, Complexity and the Self
93 Plays3 years ago
Join Fara and Grant with Dr. Terry Marks-Tarlow, psychologist, scientist, artist, author, and yogini for an eye-opening discussion of how we can understand the deep interconnections between people through the lens of fractal mathematics and psychology. Fractals show how nature and the mind is structured, giving us in sight into who we are and how we move through the world.
Read more at:
www.markstarlow.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction by Hosts
00:00:05
Speaker
Fuzzy boundaries are everywhere in nature and fuzzy boundaries are everywhere in our complex world. Hi, thanks for listening to Doorknob Comments. I'm Farah White. And I'm Grant Brenner. We are psychiatrists on a mission to educate and advocate for mental health and overall wellbeing.
Doorknob Comments: The Overlooked
00:00:24
Speaker
In addition to the obvious, we focus on the subtle, often unspoken dimensions of human experience, the so-called Doorknob Comments people often make just as they are leaving their therapist's office.
00:00:34
Speaker
We seek to dispel misconceptions while offering useful perspectives through open and honest conversation. We hope you enjoy our podcast. Please feel free to reach out to us with questions, comments, and requests. Thanks so much for tuning in
Guest Introduction: Dr. Terry Marks-Tarlow
00:00:49
Speaker
today. I'm Farah White here with Grant Brenner and our guest.
00:00:52
Speaker
Dr. Terry Marks-Tarlow. Dr. Marks-Tarlow is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Santa Monica. She's a professor and author of more than 10 books, a dancer and a composer, and most recently has written a fractal epistemology for scientific psychology. Thanks so much for being here.
00:01:12
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. Your recent book, though, there's so many things we can talk about.
Transpersonal Therapy and Fractals
00:01:18
Speaker
It's a collection of excellent chapters by a variety of star-studded authors, yeah, incredible blurbs at the beginning, incredible references from really well-known people, including Alan Shore, who, if you study attachment theory at all, you'll recognize he's a seminal thinker in the field.
00:01:35
Speaker
And it's an amazing tour de force that covers a lot of territory. The focus being on transpersonal therapy. But before we dive into that, how did you get interested in fractal mathematics as it relates to psychology?
00:01:51
Speaker
I love to tell this story. It goes back to just graduating from graduate school and realizing that depression, which I had done my dissertation in, really didn't interest me. And what did was creativity. And I know that the best way of learning anything is to teach it. So I started to teach at UCLA Extension in creativity, was asked to moderate a course
00:02:21
Speaker
a large course, which really scared me at the time because I didn't feel qualified, but that's all right. I just jumped in. So people were flown in who were experts in creativity and through that experience, I started drawing weekly with a sculptor who was friends with Richard Feynman, the physicist.
00:02:42
Speaker
And as the repeatedly smartest man in the world, I figured I better study up so I could pick his brain, especially because he wasn't really talking to the press at all. And so it was like having this private opportunity and we would draw and then we'd go into the hot tub and it was really in the hot tub that I could pick his brain.
00:03:04
Speaker
So I started to read science and wanted to be intelligent in asking him questions.
Fractals and Personal Growth
00:03:11
Speaker
And I came across Fractal Geometry. This is a story that I tell in Psyche's Veil, which I know Grant knows that book because you helped.
00:03:21
Speaker
So the Feynman story is when I discovered fractals, I ran to him and I said, don't you think fractals are profound? And someone in the room said, well, what's a fractal? And he spent the next 10 minutes or so.
00:03:36
Speaker
with a state of the art explanation of fractal dimensionality and just technical, gave a technical description of what fractals are. And I waited patiently and when he was done, I said, don't you think fractals are profound? And his answer was, I don't understand them. Which at the time made me feel crestfallen.
00:04:01
Speaker
One of the validations that they were indeed profound. Over time I came to realize that the paradox of the smartest man in the world saying he doesn't understand something he just explained to the utmost capacity, that kind of contradiction is inherent in the psyche and so I
00:04:22
Speaker
learned a lot in the aftermath about how contradiction gets unfolded in the psyche and is at the heart of the psyche as well as the heart of the universe, which is part of fractal geometry. But at the time, I felt just crestfallen that I had to figure out why I thought fractals were profound alone. I couldn't have somebody tell me. So I spent the next 20 years trying to why I
00:04:50
Speaker
thought fractals are profound and the result is this book. I mean I think this is sort of the culmination of figuring that out and really kind of coming into my own. And I have a fractal pattern in my own life of men sort of dismissing my initial impulses and then me getting angry or just seeing my heels in to prove
00:05:14
Speaker
I have something to say. The fractal book came out of a very similar thing with Harris Friedman, who was a transpersonal researcher. And when I first met him, he came to a clinical intuition workshop that I gave, and I found out he was a transpersonalist. So I sort of geared what I said to what he said.
00:05:36
Speaker
He invited me to write a piece for the International Journal of Transpersonal Studies on fractals. And that's really what spawned the book. But he didn't believe in what I was doing at all and called what we were doing an adversarial collaboration. And now he's the one that talks about fractals more than I on a daily basis, because in my own home,
00:06:01
Speaker
If I use the F word, my whole family turns against me. So I don't tend to talk about it. I'm curious about what it's like to teach a course in clinical intuition. And yeah, I did sort of haven't known that, you know, haven't read much about it.
Clinical Intuition and Neuroscience
00:06:19
Speaker
I'm wondering highly intuitive, right? Yeah.
00:06:21
Speaker
I think that clinical intuition is the heart of psychotherapy, no matter what anybody is doing. Really, it has taken interpersonal neurobiology, Alan Shor's approach, Dan Sifo's approach, to legitimize that.
00:06:40
Speaker
And because by understanding what's happening in the brain and the nervous system, then we can start to understand how intuition works as opposed to its previous reputation as being airy fairy or non scientific and, and all of that but I
00:07:01
Speaker
I think it should be a staple in every single course of any kind of clinical training because it does fill the gap between theory and practice. It's intuition. Yeah, it's how we embody theories, how we embody relationship. And so I love teaching and I do teach courses in clinical intuition and
00:07:29
Speaker
It was really sort of the precursor of moving towards the transpersonal as I then have moved from a more local level of body to body sort of intuition. I'm wild over there. A bunch of books just fell down. This is really spooky. Spooky action at a distance.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, actually, that's exactly what I was going to say. And going, you know, going from the local what happens in the room type of intuition to things like intuition through dreams, which then goes into circles back around into the more transpersonal kinds of non-local dimension. So my most recent
00:08:16
Speaker
writing is on the non-local part of intuition, but it's providing bread and butter to people that don't even realize they're starving. And people tend to say, oh my gosh, I feel validated and I feel at home now in myself because we tend when
00:08:35
Speaker
When things are more left brain, pure theoretical, we tend to hide the, you know, our, our sensibilities of that, but that's not what we do in the room. That's not how it happens in the room. Yeah.
00:08:51
Speaker
I tend to be very intuitive and I'll mention things, you know, because I work associatively. I think one thing even for non-clinicians is to be open to your associations because a lot of times we're, I think, trained to suppress certain ways of thinking.
00:09:07
Speaker
uh particularly if you're in a more conventional or conformist type of mindset. Exactly. So I'll say stuff and then you know the other person will say I was I watched that movie last week that happens over and over again you know or I'll say something that I like I wonder you know if if someone heard what I was saying not because it's all you know off color but because it just seems like a non sequitur like just unrelated to what we're talking about I say something and then
00:09:35
Speaker
And then the other person when I'm doing therapy will have some childhood memory that is very closely connected with my intuitive utterance. And you never could have guessed. There's no linear way
Synchronicity and Fuzzy Boundaries
00:09:50
Speaker
to predict that.
00:09:50
Speaker
That's the non-local stuff, and that's synchronicity also, which is the subject of my most recent paper with Jakob Shapiro, the psychiatrist who's one of the editors of the fractal book, because I think that kind of synchronicity is there's self-similarity between inner and outer processes. There's a resonance between inner and outer.
00:10:17
Speaker
I'm really really excited I'm now I'm teaching that book at ci is the California Institute of integral studies, and one of the students wrote a paper that just blew me away on the ecological.
00:10:32
Speaker
application of this, that resonance between inner and outer, but outer as the broader framework of nature as a fractal process. And so it's very exciting stuff because it's bridging. It feels to me like these ideas bridge these different worlds, bridge these different elements that don't tend to be put together. In fact, they tend to be separated out, like people
00:10:57
Speaker
stake their territory and they say, you know, this is, this is the real stuff and the other stuff isn't real. But the idea of, of, of fractal fuzzy boundary, fuzzy boundaries are everywhere in nature and fuzzy boundaries are everywhere in our complex world. We just don't like them.
00:11:18
Speaker
And unfortunately, society is polarizing and going the opposite way of trying to draw boundaries instead of look at the fuzziness, but I think they're everywhere, especially in psychology and especially in personal relationships.
00:11:33
Speaker
Absolutely. I completely agree. I'm wondering how this sort of translates in terms of your practice and what it looks like as these fuzzy boundaries kind of play out. Well, in psychoanalysis, I think that most contemporary psychoanalysts are practicing inner subjectivity and people call it different things. They call it the analytic
00:11:58
Speaker
Third, just imagine the difference of between sitting with somebody where the boundaries are really firm between which I would say is somebody in a defensive stance or both people in a defensive stance. So there's actually no real exchange. There's just there's just ideas in a in a single direction.
00:12:24
Speaker
going back and forth versus a truly fertile moment relationally, whether it's in therapy or it's with your good friend or it's with a relative where you get lost in one another, you get lost in the moment and the moment takes both of you somewhere as opposed to your figuring out what you want to say or where you want it to go. Those are fuzzy boundaries.
00:12:52
Speaker
Right. There can be sort of some level of union or merger temporarily. And then you tap into some sort of higher type of information or something like that.
Transpersonal Psychology Explained
00:13:04
Speaker
It makes me want to ask you to kind of define what transpersonal psychology is.
00:13:10
Speaker
Well, I come in through the back door of it, and so I think there are great politics around how it's defined, and the way I'm going to define it has nothing to do with the field. For listeners, you might find it interesting that all these different schools of psychology have all kinds of weird politics. I'll try not to bog down on that.
00:13:36
Speaker
I mean, one way of understanding what transpersonal is is simply a psychology that goes between people. So cultural things and that sort of thing, cultural archetypes, archetypes that say of the good mother and the bad mother or the hero or this kind of thing that arise independently all over the world. That would be one aspect of transpersonal.
00:14:04
Speaker
Another aspect of transpersonal is people's unique experiences subjectively, like in consciousness. So religious feelings, peak moments, special highs, flow states, this kind of thing subjectively is considered transpersonal. And then there's the edge of it that is
00:14:31
Speaker
more like paranormal things like uncanny known knowing that grant was talking about earlier that kind of thing where I'm just thinking about a friend and she calls on the phone, which happens to people all the time and
00:14:46
Speaker
It's easy to dismiss these things just through statistics. Oh, how many times do I think about people and they don't call so it's we can marginalize those experiences, but the more we tap into them, the more they tend to happen.
00:15:02
Speaker
And I do believe that each person, just like each person has a sort of a characteristic way of expressing stress, like some people get headaches, some people get stomach aches, some people, you know, loopy thoughts that they can't stop obsessive thinking, this sort of thing. They sometimes lash out at other people, right?
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah, aggression, that kind of thing. That's another one. I think that each person also has a sort of a characteristic way of leaning into their own trans person world. So I have synchronicity happen all the time. And even synchronous, the grant named a synchronous event kind of thing. Other people who are more empathic than I am have
00:15:48
Speaker
They're very good at reading other people's minds at when I'm less good at but but so the outside sort of hits me rather than from the inside. I think of that as in a mechanistic way like you know how is that information transmitted I don't I don't imagine that it goes through the ether.
00:16:05
Speaker
I think Richard Feynman, who you mentioned earlier, talked about these things. There's got to be a way that it happens physically. I think a lot of that, as I would imagine you would see it similarly, has to do with the nature of the brain and the nervous system as being largely composed of oscillating resonant phenomenon so that we're sort of designed to vibe off of each other.
00:16:30
Speaker
And a lot of it is just nonverbal. Like a lot of it isn't what you're saying. It's how you're saying it in your face and how you're moving. Plus there's the history you develop together. So you've got like some model of the other person that you've been unconsciously sort of building over time.
00:16:44
Speaker
The greater the intimacy, the greater the chance that these things will happen. And the greater, the more intense the moment, the greater the chance. So when there's high arousal events like near death, and that has to do with survival too, you know, that there's an evolutionary press.
Quantum Models in Psychology
00:17:01
Speaker
for information under these very high risk situations. So unconscious to unconscious communication and unconscious to unconscious information sharing, I think is a big part of it. And Yakov have also just done a quantum model for the non-local stuff. So the nature of the brain, but also how we may be tapping into a unitary level of potentiality under the surface
00:17:30
Speaker
is another piece of the non-local puzzle. And one thing that Yakov is very insistent about kind of myth busting is the idea of energy fields because
00:17:47
Speaker
energy in physics degrades over distance and time, but this non-local stuff does not. People can be in Faraday cages and still have this information sharing happening. A Faraday cage is a closed metal surface, and so you can't have any radio waves inside of it. So if you were inside of a closed metal surface, your cell phones wouldn't work.
00:18:13
Speaker
Right. And people still have remote viewing from inside a cage like that and consciousness appears to not be constrained by by it. And so it's not an energetic thing. And in our field, all this stuff about energy fields and stuff, although at the local level,
00:18:36
Speaker
There's probably a piece of energy, except it's more metabolic energy, I think. This gets very tricky with the quantum physics because, of course, particles can get connected with each other in a way which physicists call entanglement.
00:18:51
Speaker
no matter how far apart they are, if you measure one, then you know the state of the other one. So if you have an entangled photon and its spin is up, if you measure it, you know the spin of the other one is down. But until you measure it, you don't know anything about them individually. You only know about them as a paired system. And so people speculate that somehow consciousness is also non-local.
00:19:17
Speaker
in the way that particles can be entangled and be a light year apart. But still, if you measured one, you would know the other immediately. Exactly. And there are different ways of understanding the role of consciousness. Copenhagen interpretation that it's actually real consciousness. Some others say it's just the universe as measurement itself. And we use David Baum's model, which is
00:19:44
Speaker
is more the implicate or that there's just a whole kind of level consciousness can tap into. Kind of beautiful, I think, inside of a psychoanalytic model because when we talk about implicit versus explicit processes, there's almost a self-similar resonance between that. It's like what you were talking about before.
00:20:09
Speaker
Consciousness is more explicit, meaning it's based on words and listening to words and thinking about things in a very conscious way, but so much of the communication that we're talking about, certainly transpersonal, is implicit. It's unconscious. It's body to body.
00:20:30
Speaker
kinds of things. And two levels appear to be in this quantum model that there's the implicate order that is the whole realm of anything being possible, the potential. And then there's the explicate of how things are manifest real world at a material level. So it's kind of similar actually to the human, to the whole human psyche. This is really my first introduction to anything like this.
00:20:58
Speaker
What's beautiful, I think, about this way of looking at uncanny knowing is that it's a more scientific way. And it's not just psychics, talking about psychics that people love, but many people dismiss. This isn't real. Quote unquote, too, woo woo.
00:21:21
Speaker
It's woo woo. Yeah. So that excludes people from sort of having access to certain tools. Even something like the idea of fractals. Okay, right. In psychoanalytic therapy, we talk about transference. So the way the person is relating in therapy is similar to their developmental relationships.
Fractals in Nature and Personality
00:21:40
Speaker
And fractals are all about
00:21:42
Speaker
Similarities. So if you have this basic idea, you look at some fractals or you imagine how a forest, you know, contains little versions of itself all throughout and the big, the big forest looks like the little forest. And right as you walk through a forest, it looks like it's constantly evolving as it's coming at you. And, you know, the leaves look like little branches and the trees have big branches, right. And it, right, it looks like
00:22:05
Speaker
the branching of the lungs and the branching of the blood vessels. Nature is made of this type of mathematical structure, but I think it's a shorthand way for people to understand a big pattern that they're part of. It's a pattern that transcends space and time. It's on same pattern, different scales, whether it's across time or size or generation. Epigenetics, the new field of epigenetics,
00:22:35
Speaker
how our experience and how we're taking care of changes our genetic expression, and then that gets inherited by the next generation. So now we have this self-similarity over generation from one to the next. So it's really broadening. It helps to broaden the focus. But when the transference is too tight, when
00:23:00
Speaker
petition is too exact. We're locked into kind of a rigid behavior pattern that's very unhealthy. Sometimes people are also locked into rigid patterns of chaos, which is a little paradoxical, but very common as well. And so the healthy place is in the middle of those two. It's called the nervous system, but I wonder if things would be different if it had been called the calm system.
00:23:28
Speaker
I love that. I thought that was a benign joke. I think so. Well, you think things would be different if it's called the calm system? Possibly. I'm not sure the direction of causality with when we talk about someone being nervous or having nerves has a pejorative negative overtone. But I think that that ability for people to be more cognitively flexible is connected with spontaneity.
00:23:53
Speaker
the ability to improv, to use improvisation. And like you're saying, you can be stuck like in a rigid state where a person is like just repeating, like obsessive compulsive disorder is an extreme example of that. Or you can be so chaotic that you're stuck in this like hyper disconnected state, which could be like some post-traumatic states or like bipolar disorder like mania. And both of those extremes are suboptimal. Exactly.
00:24:21
Speaker
it's somewhere in the middle. Enough stability for communication and order, but enough instability for creativity and novelty. Yeah, so that's a whole different model, by the way, of mental health that is based on complexity theory.
00:24:37
Speaker
because the old model of mental health is stability. Well, it's that balance. I know that they call that a far from equilibrium system, where there's a sort of a balance between the stability of the boundaries and the permeability of the boundaries. But maybe I know you've written about this and use it as a therapist and thought about it extensively and talked about it. How do you think about personality and what would you tell listeners kind of like,
00:25:03
Speaker
What can I understand about myself that I might not have gotten from sort of traditional models. Yeah, I remember when I was in graduate school and very unhappy with the cognitive behavioral model that I was doing my dissertation in and learning and didn't believe in the
00:25:21
Speaker
to begin with and disproved in my dissertation that I went to Gestalt to get some extra training. The way they talked about personality is the optimal condition is not having a personality. It's sort of like what we were just saying. If you're sort of stuck in one manifestation,
00:25:45
Speaker
then, you know, that's not very healthy. And each situation should bring out something slightly different to fit the context and or in each relationship is going to bring out a different side of ourselves. And so I think that a more fluid and dynamic process model of personality is possible in this way. We do resemble ourselves over time. No question about that, just like our
00:26:15
Speaker
themselves and yet they're all the cells and stuff change over time and so there's a balance between change stability and change that I think is well captured. I actually think fractals are sort of the meta pattern of patterns so it's the way patterning works and
00:26:38
Speaker
Things have a fractal pattern and that's their identity is that specific pattern and I think that applies to our identity as well that there's a fractal piece to it that allows us to recognize ourselves but also gives plenty of room for change and growth and evolution.
00:26:58
Speaker
And also, there's a I'm reminded of Hillman is a famous union James Hillman at the acorn theory of the soul is a fractal theory. So this idea, his idea is that at birth.
00:27:14
Speaker
we our soul is complete. And it's not just Tillman, I think this is a religious idea in a number of different religions that that it comes whole and complete with its own pattern, the way that the whole tree is embedded inside of the acorn to begin with. And so there's a very holistic quality to to to fractals, as opposed to a reductionist quality, other ways of
00:27:42
Speaker
parsing the world into parts. This does the opposite. The pattern is at the level of the whole and the parts fit the same pattern. We spoke with a parenting psychology expert last week, Sarah Bren, for the week before.
00:28:02
Speaker
And she uses a parenting model that the name is escaping me. Do you remember Farrah that was started in the 70s? The rye model. The rye model, which has a similar idea of seeing the child sort of as whole from the beginning. An autonomous. Yes, I know the rye people very well. I have some in my own group. Cool.
00:28:24
Speaker
Well, I think one of the things about fractals is for people to understand that they don't exactly repeat. So there's kind of a flavor which is unique and you can see it with essentially infinite variation. Like a fractal is something mathematically and visually you can look it up online like fractal zoom.
00:28:42
Speaker
you know, on your favorite streaming video channel. And the more you magnify it, the more you see this implicit order. And it looks the same, but it's different. Yeah, like snowflakes, right? Like a snowflake, I think, is a good way of understanding that concept. Each snowflake resembles each other, but there are differences when you look very closely at
00:29:06
Speaker
like people right like you can tell a person's a person right we all I remember I I went to a talk that Dalai Lama gave many years ago I heard him speak twice and both times I fell asleep within at least like maybe at most five minutes but I remember him saying like all people are pretty much the same
00:29:24
Speaker
two eyes, nose, mouth, you know, of course, there's variations, but everyone is also very different, right? From afar, we all are the same. As you zoom in and get close, you see everyone is quite unique. This is something about being able to see yourself fully requires compassion and love. I want to ask you about before we have to wind down because my sense is for people who really have difficulty with themselves.
00:29:49
Speaker
difficulty with self-acceptance or difficulty loving themselves, including their faults. It's very hard to catch a glimpse of the whole personality, which gets in the way of self-knowing, perhaps.
00:30:02
Speaker
Now you're talking about the value of using practical metaphors for people in how they view themselves. And there are some wonderful ones, including, you know, one of the things that people can feel really bad about is the repetition of their own issues.
Patterns in Therapy and Healing
00:30:20
Speaker
And they think that to be healthy means
00:30:23
Speaker
to work something through means to make it disappear, but nothing ever disappears. And especially from the point of view of the brain, everything is still there and even if we don't use it. And so this is a good metaphor for that you can still make progress even with the same patterns and without looking for them to disappear. And I think the other thing about love and compassion and connection with the universe
00:30:52
Speaker
large is fractals connect us to the universe at large. And so it becomes easier to have compassion for ourselves when we can feel more connected like that.
00:31:04
Speaker
in a general way, not just to two other people, but also to nature at large. And nature turns out to be healing during this time of COVID. People should be getting outside and in nature because looking at fractals, there's research, Richard Taylor's research, just looking at nature and the fractal quality of nature is is soothing and healing.
00:31:27
Speaker
And if you're in a hospital, having a window outside, but even a picture of nature will help people heal. I also understand that for people who have trouble organizing their thoughts, that images of nature help the brain to approach a more organized state. Interesting. For ADHD.
00:31:47
Speaker
Grant, is that why you have your screen? Well, one of the reasons my background, which is a physical background, it's not like a digital background that people have on Zoom, is just a canvas panel with a picture of a forest. Most people like it. Oh, I like it. Oh, yeah. And I'm so glad it's not one of those virtual backgrounds. I hate them.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, well yeah there's this a certain deliberateness in that choice as well but you know, to each their own right some people are more deliberative, and I think what you're saying about change, you know, maybe one of the last things we can ask you about, sure people wish they could change overnight, and you can tell them change can take time though sometimes
00:32:32
Speaker
There are sudden bursts of change that we see developmentally that's a longer conversation, but have you ever worked with or met someone who they seem to set their mind to change and then they make a sudden change and they seem to become different virtually overnight.
Conclusion and Further Resources
00:32:50
Speaker
and get rid of a problem they've had for a long time. Do you have any thoughts about that type of change? Oh sudden change versus gradual change. Yeah like you know is it is it as durable is that based in suppression and then later on it comes back or you know do you but like I said I've certainly met people who you know they've made a decision and then they're going to stop doing something or they're going to change the way they act
00:33:17
Speaker
Right. I think, you know, that's part part of personality, I think, is how the what change looks like in each person, that some people are very slow changers and they need really gradual, incremental change in a particular direction. And then other people who probably tend to be more creative or more comfortable with uncertainty
00:33:44
Speaker
Those are often the ones that can have those sudden changes, but the sudden change people can often flip back. The gradual change people tend to, it tends to be a more lasting change. Just think about dieting. I mean, I think that applies. People that gradually lose weight have a better chance of holding onto it than the really sudden starvation type diet.
00:34:10
Speaker
Thank you so much for being here and I'm wondering where can listeners find you if they want to learn more about you and your work. Website is best. It's Mark's, my last name, which is M-A-R-S-T-A-R-L-O-W dot com. And all my books, there are links to buy the books.
00:34:30
Speaker
There are also videos of different presentations and all the papers I've ever done, you can download as well. And I've done a lot of papers. I've written papers. For real. It's fantastic. There's art too, right? You're an artist as well?
00:34:46
Speaker
I mean, oh, that's right. My art is on air and I illustrate all my own books and I curate psychotherapist art, which is up right now. If people want to see psychotherapist art and there are a lot of New York artists in this one because of Leanne posting that's under LACPA mirrors, L A C P A
00:35:06
Speaker
M-I-R-R-O-R-S dot com. There's a virtual gallery of almost a hundred artists with artist statements and some videos of artists spotlight. And there's a free artist spotlight this Sunday. Oh, that's awesome. Maybe we can link to it. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you so much for the invitation. I just love talking about all these things and you guys are great. Thanks very much.
00:35:41
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Dornop comments. We're committed to bringing you new episodes with great guests. Please take a moment to share your thoughts. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find us on Instagram at Dornop comments. Remember this podcast is for general information purposes only and does not constitute the practice of psychiatry or any other type of medicine. This is not a substitute for professional and individual treatment services and no doctor patient relationship is formed. If you feel that you may be in crisis, please don't delay in securing mental health treatment. Thank you for listening.