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Intercultural Relationships
123 Plays9 months ago
Join Fara and Grant on the latest episode of the Doorknob Comments podcast as they dive deep into the beautiful complexities of intercultural marriage. Le like to think that love knows no borders, but what about the hurdles that come with actually making it work? Together, they explore the ups and downs of love across cultures, from navigating emotional expressions to dealing with societal pressures and language barriers.
In this heartfelt conversation, Fara and Grant emphasize the importance of open communication and understanding each other's cultural backgrounds. They share personal anecdotes and insights, highlighting the need for creating a shared cultural space within the relationship.
And it's not just about the couples – they also touch on the broader societal challenges that impact all relationships. From there, they discuss the role of therapy in helping couples navigate these cultural complexities and build stronger bonds.
Ultimately, this episode is a reminder of the power of empathy, negotiation, and respect in fostering healthy and thriving intercultural partnerships. Tune in for heartfelt stories and valuable advice that will resonate with anyone in love, regardless of cultural differences.
Key Takeaways
- Intercultural marriages are Increasing due to globalization
- Partners from different cultural backgrounds may experience and express emotions differently
- Intercultural couples may face societal resistance or familial pressures
- Effective communication about cultural values and expressions is vital
- Couples can create a "third culture" within their relationship
- The Journey of Intercultural marriage Is both challenging and enriching
In This Episode:
- [01:05] Intercultural marriage and its rising prevalence
- [02:30] Challenges in intercultural relationships
- [10:16] Impact of cultural values on relationships
- [17:24] How cultural backgrounds impact the expression of emotions
- [23:42] US cultural perspective on friendship vs Russian and Lithuanian cultures.
- [26:03] Family and societal attitudes in Intercultural relationships
- [33:30] Creating a third culture in intercultural relationships
- [36:12] Evidence-informed relationship practice
Resources and Links
Doorknob Comments
Dr. Fara White
Dr. Grant Brenner
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Origin
00:00:00
Speaker
they mention russian-lithuanian culture while they share with the us the values of passion selflessness preoccupation with the other person and transcendent feelings of love only people in the us think of friendship is being part of a long-term marriage hello i'm dr fairway and i'm dr grant brenner
00:00:21
Speaker
We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the doorknob comment. Doorknob comments are important things we all say from time to time just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the doorknob.
00:00:38
Speaker
Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking, and experiencing.
Defining 'Doorknob Comments'
00:00:49
Speaker
Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.
00:01:05
Speaker
Hi, welcome to doorknob comments.
Intercultural Marriage: A Growing Trend
00:01:07
Speaker
I am your host, Grant Brenner. I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Farah White. And today we're going to talk about a subject of increasing interest and importance, namely intercultural marriage. There's various terms for intercultural marriage. Many people may be more familiar with interracial marriage or mixed marriages. The point is that intercultural marriages are on the rise going from less than 5% in the 1960s
00:01:34
Speaker
to perhaps over 20% nowadays, especially in urban environments, which are quote unquote, hyper diverse. And in particular, we're talking about Western cultures today based on a recent research study that I reviewed in my blog experimentations on psychology today called building a successful intercultural marriage and family.
Challenges in Intercultural Relationships
00:01:55
Speaker
Farrah and I are going to talk through the various factors and we hope that it's useful and fun for you.
00:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad we're talking about this because I do think that when people are, let's say, dating and thinking about, I mean, we're saying marriage, but it could be really any long-term partnership, romantic relationship, friendship. A lot of times when we feel close to someone, I think we tend to overlook where they came from and where we came from, too.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good point. And one of the recommendations, you know, for any couple, particularly if they're, you know, getting quote unquote serious is to identify all of the different important areas that people tend to omit and talk about them. So a lot of times that's finance or, you know,
00:02:47
Speaker
Not just how many kids do you want, but also how do you raise kids? What are your views on discipline? How do you manage finances? That'll be a topic for a future episode. And then one that we really need to add, especially if people are dating outside their culture, which is much more common today for a variety of reasons,
00:03:07
Speaker
is what are the main things that are likely to come up in intercultural relationships. So the research that we reviewed identifies four big areas as a kind of what we'll be talking about today. These are based on a review of a large number of prior research papers that they consolidate in what's called a meta-analysis or a qualitative review in this case over the last two or three decades. So those four big buckets are
00:03:37
Speaker
One, culture-related stressors and their impact on relational functioning. Two, cultural differences in the experience and expression of emotions. Three, familial and societal attitudes towards intercultural romantic relationships. And finally, conveying love to a partner in a different language.
Communication and Miscommunication
00:03:58
Speaker
Those are big buckets and there's specific things in each area.
00:04:03
Speaker
For sure. I think the first one that you mentioned, and maybe we can just touch on each one a little bit. This idea of like a stressor, which you could say is really any big thing that happens in a relationship. Maybe it's moving in, maybe it's meeting family, maybe it's having a kid, but those are things that I think a lot of people like
00:04:31
Speaker
maybe just have a template for them from their culture or from their own family. And it could be really, really different. Um, so one of my favorite things about talking about dating alongside like people who are in therapy is when we say, Oh, well, you know, I'm not sure if he's serious or I'm not sure if she's committed or how do you tell, how do you tell? And also what does that mean to you?
00:04:59
Speaker
because someone can say, oh yeah, I'm totally committed, I'm all in. But that can mean two very different things to different people. Yeah, I mean, I think that's generally true in communication. People use the same term and they mean different things. And there's less of an interest sometimes in getting into the details, especially I think this is a little bit, it's relevant, but it's sort of off the direct subject is,
00:05:27
Speaker
we live in this text-based communication and you text something and you assume the other person knows what you're talking about and it leads to huge amounts of miscommunication just in the way you're describing.
Societal Disconnection and Relationship Dynamics
00:05:39
Speaker
And because I think attention span is shorter because there's so many things competing for attention, because we avoid closeness and intimacy, I think our society is increasingly disconnected even though there's more and more or
00:05:55
Speaker
maybe this is a cause effect thing, that there are more and more studies that show how lethal and bad for your health loneliness is. It's kind of like no duh. We live in a culture where we try to avoid connecting with each other and the pandemic just sort of widen that, but social media has pushed that further and also brought a lot of different cultures into close contact.
00:06:19
Speaker
and that means work right that's complex and by work i mean the work of slowing down and talking through terms like
00:06:28
Speaker
What do you mean by committed? What do you mean by all in? Can you think of any examples of people when they've said that but they're actually on different pages? Well, I think like one common thing is how much contact is normal to have with someone that you start seeing, right? And some people are really big texters and they have access to their phone all day and they can almost have full conversations.
00:06:57
Speaker
by text. So I feel like that's totally true. So that relates to the second one, maybe cultural differences in the experience and expression of emotions, as well as how people convey love, love rather. So for one person, like texting may be like, hey, I'm super connected. For another person, they may be like, I need to meet in person. Like texting doesn't do it for me.
00:07:21
Speaker
it doesn't do it for me or I don't, you know, I might be really into some something or someone but I don't have the bandwidth to text no matter what, right? So people can, I think misread that and I
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, but what does bandwidth mean? I mean, that's a garbage pail term. It just is a way of saying like, um, I'm not going to do it and I'm going to pin it on something I'm calling bandwidth. So we could, we could make the same, we could, we could use that as an example. Like what do you mean by bandwidth? Do you mean literally? Like I hear people have this argument all the time with significant others and with worry, they're like, literally you don't have time to text me during the day. It's like, it only takes like a minute.
00:08:04
Speaker
Right, but maybe some people find it stressful to open up their phone and open up their messages and go through everything. So that's not bandwidth. That's like, you know, that person finds it stressful. So why do people say I don't have the bandwidth instead of saying,
Cultural Expectations in Family and Child-rearing
00:08:19
Speaker
I understand, you know, this is an example, I understand that it's really important to you and I'm, you know, and I don't want you to feel like I'm not paying attention to you. But for me, the way my brain works, when I can't shift, you know, back and forth, when I'm working, I can't be looking at text messages. It's just, I wish I could, but, you know, my ADHD gets in the way or whatever. So bandwidth is just a term that I use, I hear used to kind of explain anything.
00:08:48
Speaker
Right, maybe, but I guess. It's just a good example of miscommunication because one person may say, yeah, I totally get it. Like you can't, you can't pay attention to other stuff. Another person may be more literal and say, you really don't have five minutes every two hours to check your phone. If you cared.
00:09:07
Speaker
If you really cared, that's my love language is texting. You want to text five times a day for the rest of my life? I don't think that's reasonable. Okay, but you're saying never. You're saying you can never do it.
00:09:23
Speaker
What if I have an emergency? Okay. Well, that's different. Like that's, you know, I text with my friends, you know? Right. And that actually, I don't want to skip ahead, but I do think- Well, too late. Okay. Well, skipping to this idea and this was sort of- I don't have the bandwidth to stay on track with those four items in order. Okay.
00:09:41
Speaker
This was later on. It's sort of like, what do we expect out of relationships? Express emotions through passive aggressive jokes. I hope that's okay with you. Yeah, that's okay. I do speak that love language because culturally we're quite similar.
00:10:00
Speaker
But I see it in younger people today. There's just a huge amount of snark. It's like, do you speak snark? Like I don't speak snark. If you speak snark and I don't speak snark, then the person who doesn't speak snark is going to be offended.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yes. So we were talking about culture related stressors, like differences in how people raise kids, for example, and how everything can change overnight. I've heard so many horror stories. I've heard so many wonderful stories. When people have kids, all of a sudden it's like they realize that they have completely different ideas and desires.
Cultural Differences in Emotional Expression
00:10:37
Speaker
Yeah, but I wonder how much I think people think about having kids and how it's going to, let's say, impact their lives as a couple and think about, let's say, adding to their family. But I don't know if they think about it, really what it's going to feel like after, let's say, this child arrives and we identify on so many levels, right? Because on one hand, we can relive
00:11:02
Speaker
our own childhoods through this. On the other hand, we feel a connection maybe to our own parents. And so it brings up a lot and I just feel like it's such a shift.
00:11:13
Speaker
Well, if there's like trauma in one's own childhood and they haven't dealt with it, then kids can kind of blow things up in certain ways, even beyond kind of the normal, like having kids change how you feel about your life and your mortality and your sense of responsibility. But I'm also thinking about the nuts and bolts stuff that people need to talk about when they have kids. Who's going to get up in the middle of the night? Are we taking turns? How do we take care of this baby that we've decided to have?
00:11:39
Speaker
Do we let the baby cry it out or do you go in when they're crying? Can the baby sleep with the parents ever or are we being strict with letting the kids stay in their sleep training for their cribs? So the thing is every one of these items, whether it's kids, whether it's buying a home together, whether it's what holidays to celebrate and how, if you're from different religions,
00:12:04
Speaker
They all require a lot of work to talk through. Yeah. And who has the bandwidth for that? Right. Right. And why do people want to date people who aren't part of their culture in the first place, right? Why not make the easy choice? Maybe, but maybe they're trying to move away from something or someone they didn't like. Maybe they just fell in love with someone. There could be a million reasons for that.
00:12:29
Speaker
Something better than others, right? I guess it's just kind of thinking. You're trying to avoid some aspect of your own identity and you're looking for the other and you're trying to find something for yourself in the other. And then a lot of people find out that they marry someone very different from themselves and they end up repeating very familiar patterns that they were afraid of. That can happen.
00:12:54
Speaker
But maybe that's for some people, it feels a little bit safe because it's like, oh, this person is from halfway across the world and they're nothing like my mom or dad or whatever it is. And that's the Dalai Lama once said, everybody pretty much the same. Yeah.
00:13:16
Speaker
Another thing that comes up is sort of power dynamics, like what are the expectations as to who is in charge of what in the relationship. Most often that comes up in differences in gender role, but certainly in same-sex couples.
00:13:31
Speaker
you still have power dynamics. And one of the things the authors pointed out in that study that we reviewed is that sometimes racism can come up, they call it intimate racism. So if there's a power differential and one person is from the main culture that you're in, like let's say, right, you're in the States and you're American.
00:13:51
Speaker
and you married someone from outside the States, then in a sense, from a cultural point of view, the person who's from the US is sort of like the mainstream person. And that can play out in very destructive ways if there's essentially either sort of control dynamics or even racism within the marriage or the relationship. It can come up in dating as well. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that as I try to methodically go through the points.
00:14:19
Speaker
Well, I do wonder if there are any ways, and this is something that didn't really come up, so we'll have to kind of be creative. It didn't come up in your writing, I don't think. Let's say like, what are the main things that we should try to understand about someone's culture? And yes, you had mentioned these very practical ideas about babies and houses, but I also think
00:14:47
Speaker
really trying to understand what are the values that shape any particular culture. So those values could let's say be family based, they could be education based, because those are really big things. And I do think in the study, it was interesting, you had like, they looked at certain cultures and how people sort of gravitate to each other. And I do think it's because
00:15:16
Speaker
let's say people prioritize different things. So there may be a way to look for commonality and connection, but also see, okay, well, how does this manifest differently?
00:15:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, values come up in every relationship. You know, if people are from very, very similar backgrounds, they still need to talk through their values in different ways. True. But there's an expectation, right, that like, oh, if we grew up watching the same shows on TV, then we have, let's say, more in common than someone who grew up, you know, in a farm town someplace very far away where they didn't have access to any, you know, electronics.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah. Is that an intercultural difference if someone from the East Coast marries someone from the heart of the Midwest, even if they're from similar religious backgrounds or similar ethnic backgrounds? So, I mean, I agree with you. I think that's important, but I think it transcends
00:16:16
Speaker
sort of cultural differences in a way, like every couple needs to talk through their values. There's specific things with culture, like different cultures, they talked about express emotions differently. So for example, in the US, according to one of the studies reviewed, people tend to talk about their feelings openly, whereas in Filipino or Chinese culture, actions speak louder than words.
00:16:41
Speaker
And so that reminds me of the five love languages also, which is kind of like, I don't trust what you say to me. I trust what you do. You can commit to do something, but unless you actually show up in the ways we agreed, then I doubt your authenticity.
Interpersonal Dynamics and Cultural Norms
00:16:57
Speaker
And that extends to also the expression of emotions.
00:17:01
Speaker
discussion of feelings. And I would say sense of humor also is one of the big things that wasn't specifically identified. But different cultures really have different ways of interpreting humor, you know, going back to that kind of, you know, sarcasm plays well in one culture, but not in another. I'm curious what you think about that from the point of view of values and communication and emotion.
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think a sense of humor is certainly important. And I think if we try to put people's, let's say, love languages or their expressions in the context of what we know about their culture, we may have more success in understanding it. I agree. You know, and so just to try to say, well, maybe I've been with this person
00:17:49
Speaker
for a year or 10 years or 20 years, but let's say the first 10 or 20 years of their life, feelings were expressed completely differently. People change. Yeah, people change. You can't oversimplify. Yeah, you can't. But also, if someone has gotten the message when they're five years old that it's not okay to cry, no one wants to hear you complaining,
00:18:15
Speaker
And if you feel sad, just like go up to your room so that we don't have to deal with it. Cry into your pillow. Yeah. Oh, it's so sad. But, you know. I mean, we hear things like that all the time. We do. It's so damaging. Right. And I think it's damaging. You think it's damaging. Maybe other people. To another culture that's the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do because we have to fortify people against like the hardship of life.
00:18:40
Speaker
I mean, that's like intergenerational trauma and stoicism, but it's also like, think about the group. One of the big differences is whether a culture is individualistic or communal. And in communal cultures, to your point about context, if someone says, if you're feeling upset, isolate yourself. It's not necessarily hurt yourself and be stoic. It's also, you know, you have an obligation to the group and you need to keep that in mind.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yes, but then I think the messaging is the group can't handle your sadness. So, right? That's the idea. We don't want to bring other people down. So let's hide it and sit alone with it. Maybe, but I don't believe that that is the way it would be framed by someone from that culture. And I think you could make the case that the perspective that you're describing, like hide your sadness, it's bad to have feelings.
00:19:36
Speaker
is essentially a Western value to the exact point of the study. That expression of culture, of emotions in the US culture, with some exceptions obviously, really highlights sharing emotions, working through them. It's very psychologized.
00:19:54
Speaker
I would be careful just about being culturally imperialistic, you know, or judgmental and saying our culture is good because we share feelings because you know, you and I are biased. Okay. So I think sharing feelings is a good thing. Obviously grew up in that culture on like, I think a pretty hardcore level. Yeah. But I think being in a relationship with someone who didn't grow up that way, which is basically everyone, you know,
00:20:23
Speaker
Um, who didn't have like shrinks as, as parents, but, um, yeah, but to try to say, well, you know, it may be actually, and I, I do see this, you know, with, with patients or with friends and, and also obviously.
00:20:43
Speaker
in my own relationship where sometimes it can be really hard to have certain conversations if someone is unhappy with me or someone, let's say, has negative feelings and a sort of tolerance for negative feelings, tolerance for conflict and what people think someone's reaction is gonna be, I believe is very culturally informed.
00:21:08
Speaker
Yeah, there's individual factors also. And as you were implying over time, not just individuals change, but relationships establish dynamics, some of which are maladaptive. In disaster work, we often say people need to know you care before they care what you know. And in some of the self-help and relationship work that I've done, like Relationship Sanity book,
00:21:30
Speaker
or irrelationship or making your crazy work for you. We really talk about creating a context where people can talk and listen to one another in non-judgmental ways so that you can really develop mutuality and understanding based on compassion, which is also somewhat culturally bound, though sort of compassion comes from the East, so to speak. I think this Western value, like it's good to talk through feelings,
00:21:55
Speaker
And that comes up a lot in couples. You could really just argue, should we share our feelings or not? But I wanna say it's a more nuanced
Humor and Friendship Across Cultures
00:22:05
Speaker
question. It's not either or, but easily things can become oversimplified. Cause the question may be really, when do we talk about feelings and in what ways? And also how do you show feelings? So if you happen to end up with someone who doesn't express their feelings and talk about everything, you know, like,
00:22:25
Speaker
you might in couples therapy, do you also have an obligation to work out how to express feelings in ways that they understand?
00:22:37
Speaker
if you're with someone from a culture where actions speak louder than words, do you kind of insist that talking through feelings is the only way to do it? Or do you sometimes clean the oven because that means I love you? And then you kind of put aside your own narcissism. Right, but I think it has to be a negotiation.
00:22:58
Speaker
Right, well then there's a communication question. The other thing they mentioned, just moving along a little bit, because this is such a rich topic, the cultural differences in the expression of emotions, I'm curious what you think. They talked about one study that found that people in the US, their basic definition of what a committed relationship means, to your point, includes having like a lifelong best friend. Whereas in other cultures, they mentioned Russian-Lithuanian culture,
00:23:28
Speaker
While they share with the US the values of passion, selflessness, preoccupation with the other person and transcendent feelings of love, only people in the US think of friendship as being part of a long-term marriage.
00:23:42
Speaker
Yeah. And I've heard that, you know, in the U.S. we value friendship and personal relationship and like sharing and disclosing. The idea that the person who you marry is supposed to be your friend. If you're starting off with that assumption and then you marry someone who's like, I didn't know I have friends. You're my spouse. Like we're not friends. Right. But that's right. Okay. Thank you. I think, um,
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah. It's professional. Yeah. But, but it's, I'm just thinking about like when, um, I worked in a lab before med school and I was the only American there and I would like come in and talk all about my personal life and like everything like the kids were doing. And then I'd be like, Oh, and so are you dating anyone? You know, and they were like, thought I was so intrusive and weird.
00:24:41
Speaker
That's so odd. And they were like, yeah, we don't want to know your personal life and we don't. I mean, eventually I actually did kind of come to a place with them where we had a really nice friendship. But like I was like, I actually can't tolerate going into work every day and not being able to be friendly and treat people like friends. So I feel like you should probably do a job where you talk about personal stuff all day long and it's appropriate to that setting.
00:25:09
Speaker
really. Yeah. And it really it's not just with people from other countries, too. I'm reminded of differences even in different regions in the U.S. Comically, I'm thinking of Meet the Fockers, where one family is, you know, quote unquote waspy and the other family, I think, is Jewish. And I think the mom is even like a sex therapist or something. And the couple is they're just very, very emotionally demonstrative. They talk about how amazing their sex life was like.
00:25:37
Speaker
that morning and the quote-unquote more waspy people, the CIA guy who is secretive by nature, Robert De Niro, is just extremely uncomfortable and thinks it's just flat out wrong, which goes to the third point maybe of family and societal attitudes toward intercultural romantic relationships. So it's kind of like in the crude sense, do the families approve or not?
00:26:03
Speaker
Right.
Family Influence and Power Dynamics
00:26:04
Speaker
And I think that that brings up a lot of different things, I think, for me because I think gender roles, sharing, let's say, domestic duties, those kinds of things really depend. Are you a good wife? Yeah. Are you a good wife? Like being a good wife means different things in different cultures, right? And so what am I willing
00:26:28
Speaker
to do as someone who has grown up in this culture. I'm a good wife. I try to talk about feelings all the time. Yes. But I don't like cooked dinner from scratch. Right. And but that's because that's well, I guess it would be nice and and
00:26:46
Speaker
It could and should be, but it's not something that- And you work too. You work full-time. Right. So I don't prioritize it as, okay, well, that's how I take care of my husband. But just imagine a woman who works full-time, is very involved and take care of the kids, and the in-laws are like, why doesn't she cook dinner from scratch? Right. I mean, that's my life, basically.
00:27:11
Speaker
Well, I don't, I didn't mean to get into your life, but like you said, you know, yeah, this is like the lab, you know, where you, you know, it's, um, but I do, I think it's let that be stricken from the record. You get to decide later on, you want to leave that in. It's been many years. So I think they've learned. You're okay with it, but I mean, to the point that you hear that a lot and there is inherent gender bias there. For sure. Which varies from culture to culture. The U S has no gender bias.
00:27:39
Speaker
None at all. Nope. We got rid of that, I think, a while ago now.
00:27:46
Speaker
In case people are wondering, we're using humor to make a point that there is work to be done for gender equality and many other things. Yeah, but I do think that this is an area actually where it could be an area of connection, right? If we can be really open-minded and non-defensive and not really take any of this too personally and just
00:28:14
Speaker
I think it's so interesting to hear about other people's marriages, relationships, and particularly I think wanting to know about your in-laws because that's the relationship that
00:28:27
Speaker
So you might want to really check into that. And I've definitely heard of relationships that don't work because the families don't agree. I guess Romeo and Juliet is sort of a prime example of that. But for sure, let's add that to the list of things to think about before you jump in. On the other hand, sometimes people, you know, they want to shoot first and ask questions later. They love someone. They have a romantic love. And so they're not going to let that get in their way.
00:28:55
Speaker
What that means is later on that work will still have to be done because it may be that the community, the family marginalizes one of the spouses. I heard about a story recently outside of my clinical practice is not from a patient, but they married someone from abroad in an arranged marriage and within a month it became evident that the man was emotionally abusive and
00:29:21
Speaker
had the belief that he should just call all the shots and control everything, even though this won't surprise people, but even though the woman was the primary income winner, the man came in and just saw it as
00:29:36
Speaker
his domain and his property and even started pulling in one of his male siblings was going to join them. And it just, it became very evident very quickly that this was a setup for domestic violence as well. And, you know, none of that, I guess, was vetted beforehand, like what's your family like, get to meet them, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But I do think meeting them, I do think understanding, let's say, um, the story of, of where we come from, um,
00:30:05
Speaker
Well, how do they treat people and are they going to change overnight once you are married and you can't get out? Right. How do you know that in this culture? Right. We can always get out. And in most cultures, luckily you can. But I do think there were like over time, it's been an institution that maybe people didn't have the option. And so they were committed and they were just going to stick with it.
00:30:29
Speaker
Well, that's cultural also, and probably a good thing to discuss is like, well, I hate to bring it up, but what happens if we grow apart and we'll work on the relationship, but what are your feelings about separating or shifting into a co-parenting relationship down the road? But if it's like, oh no, once married, that's it.
00:30:52
Speaker
That's my very strong value. Whereas in US, the divorce rates are 40 plus percent. And so it's almost when people get married, it may be implied that if it doesn't work, we'll split up. But then maybe they haven't thought through like what happens when you have kids and what happens once all your finances are entangled. So if that's what you're thinking and it's kind of a trial marriage, then maybe get a good prenup.
00:31:17
Speaker
and plan out ahead of time like what the exit strategy looks like the way business people do like an operating agreement will will stipulate what happens if one of the members wants to leave the partnership and we don't really do that with long-term committed relationships.
00:31:32
Speaker
Right, but I think we should. Actually, there was an article a while ago in the Times about a relationship contract and revising this contract, and I think- It hasn't caught on. It has not caught on because, I guess, spoiler, it's not really- It's not romantic. It's not romantic, but it might- It could be.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah. Make it romantic, you know. I think it's, you know, a lot of times it is. It's an interesting thing. You know, in Judaism, we sign a katuba. I don't know what it says because it's like written in Aramaic. But I mean, this idea of relationship contracts is not new, but I think a lot of times people
00:32:15
Speaker
Did your dad transfer the requisite number of cattle when you got married? I really don't know what that thing says. I do think I signed it though, which is kind of... Too late. Too late. That's okay. For the fourth one, I'm sorry, I'm being a little OCD. Okay. You really want to get to the fourth one.
00:32:32
Speaker
I really want to pay love to a partner in a different language, which we're sort of talking about anyway. Like the idea that a pre-nup or a relationship contract, one person may see that as an act of love and devotion. They want to protect themselves and the other person. Another person may see it as a betrayal.
00:32:50
Speaker
They may. And the same way that, let's say, love language, acts of service, someone can say, well, it's so great that you cleaned up the kitchen. Somebody else could say, well, what I really wanted to do was just like sit on the couch with a cup of tea and talk about our days. So it's good to spell all that out. And some of it is culturally determined and some of it isn't.
00:33:13
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that couples can hopefully outline, negotiate, and navigate that stuff together as they create, let's say, their own blended cultural relationship.
Creating a Blended Culture
00:33:30
Speaker
Oh, right, that's the term, like you make a new culture, like a third culture, a third culture is the term they use. So that's tricky if the communication style is culturally determined and doesn't work well. So if one person doesn't talk about important things and the other person is like, we have to talk about important things, how do you actually navigate and negotiate what things mean in terms of this language that's used to convey love?
00:33:55
Speaker
So the literalness of the communication is important. Humor is also something like that as well. Like playful teasing might be affectionate in one culture and for someone from another culture or maybe they're on the spectrum a little bit or something like that, they just feel uncomfortable. Why are you being mean to me? Or insulted and humiliated. Like it's interpreted as mean rather than expressing understanding through humor and looking for a shared
00:34:21
Speaker
way to get relief, you know, humor often blows off relief during stressful times. They give a specific example in the study. Okay, do you want to share it? I totally do. Once I'll just read it.
00:34:37
Speaker
One study, for example, reported that in Russian-Israeli couples, the more reserved stance of the Russian culture with emotional expression can clash with the more freewheeling open style of Israelis. Of course, these are also stereotypes, but they're often based in cultural norms. This may lead to conflict, but again presents opportunities, if managed well, for cross-cultural enrichment, that creation of a third culture together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:35:07
Speaker
And I think we do see it here and particularly in New York. And I actually think it's a beautiful thing. I love everything that's sort of blended and infused. Because to me it's a sign of the desire to connect and create something with other people. So I think
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:35:31
Speaker
even though we've sort of outlined it, well, there's a lot to navigate here because there is, as with any relationship, I think it could ultimately result in something very beautiful done right.
00:35:45
Speaker
Yeah. And it does require that work and that grace with one another and generosity and learning compassion for oneself and others. And how do you feel about the idea of, um, you know, cause we're talking about this one research study that reviews research and obviously there's oversimplifications and Western culture is very much like evidence based and like, tell me if it works or not. Where do you stand with evidence informed relationship, um, practice E I R P. I just made that up.
00:36:14
Speaker
Okay. Do you think people should approach relationships in a scientific way? No, I think people should go with what, that people should follow their instincts. Isn't that misleading though? You're a psychodynamic therapist, right? Can't instinct be projective and then you think you're following your instincts, but it's really just some thing of yours. If you're always looking at it and you're, but I think
00:36:40
Speaker
The idea of the evidence base while I appreciate its role in things. There's lots of different ways to look at evidence right so there are plenty of healers and I guess relationships and you know where.
00:36:58
Speaker
They don't get their information from peer review journals but they get it passed down in other ways and i think it would be yeah i think that's a bit different are you perhaps if there's a sort of wisdom tradition though i think that can be different if there's a real wisdom tradition on the other hand some of those things are just idiosyncratic and
00:37:22
Speaker
Right. I'm most focused on the possibility of distortion. If you're just sort of going by instinct, I think that's important to trust oneself and to know when is it kind of reliable instinct and when am I projecting. Yeah, but that's what therapy is for, right? It can help with that. It can help with that sometimes, if you're open to it. Yeah, exactly. Good. Any final words?
00:37:47
Speaker
No, thank you for listening today. Thanks for tuning in to hear our convo. We'd love to hear from people, either DM us through Instagram, follow us on Instagram, we can rate and review. We would really appreciate that. We want to know what you think. Yeah, and definitely if you found something interesting, please post this and share it with your peeps. Yeah, okay. Thanks.
00:38:17
Speaker
Remember, the Doorknob Comments podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.