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The Gaslight Effect with Dr. Robin Stern
98 Plays5 months ago
In this episode, Grant and Fara have a conversation with Dr. Robin Stern, the Co-Founder and Senior Advisor for the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. Dr. Stern is also the author of The Gaslight Effect and the host of The Gaslight Effect Podcast. They delve into Dr. Stern's journey in exploring gaslighting, the common tactics used by gaslighters in relationships, the role of shame and isolation for victims, and much more. Drawing from her 30 years of experience in treating individuals, couples, and families, Dr. Stern offers valuable insights into gaslighting dynamics and the steps to reclaiming one's narrative.
We hope you enjoy!
Key Takeaways
The longer you’re in a relationship where you’re second-guessing your reality and accommodating the other, the harder it is to leave.
Many times shame can begin to creep into gaslighting relationships. Victims might be ashamed to bring their gaslighters behavior up to family and friends, and can further isolate themselves.
In This Episode
[0:00] Introduction
[1:05] Episode Overview
[02:30] Robin’s Journey to Exploring Gaslighting
[10:10] Red Flags and Disavowal
[17:15] ‘Stage 3’ of Gaslighting
[18:40] Masquerading Gaslighting in Relationships
[22:10] The Role of Isolation and Shame
[24:30] Reclaiming Reality and Pushing Back
[27:40] Gaslighting vs. Other Forms of Dysfunctional Communication
[30:40] Navigating Behavioral Intention
[33:55] What about Gaslighters?
[35:40] Closing Thoughts
Resources and Links
Doorknob Comments
https://www.doorknobcomments.com/
Dr. Robin Stern
Dr. Fara White
Dr. Grant Brenner
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Doorknob Comments Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
You begin to try to negotiate and and establish yourself as someone who's worthy, and you're defending yourself rather than saying, I'm out of here. like No matter what is the reality of the argument, I don't ever want to feel like this when my boyfriend, husband, partner, family member is talking to me like this. Hello, I'm Dr. Farah White. And I'm Dr. Grant Brenner. We're psychiatrists and therapists in private practice in New York. We started this podcast in 2019 to draw attention to a phenomenon called the door knob comment. Door knob comments are important things we all say from time to time just as we're leaving the office, sometimes literally hand on the door knob.
Interview with Dr. Robin Stern
00:00:42
Speaker
Doorknob comments happen not only during therapy, but also in everyday life. The point is that sometimes we aren't sure how to express the deeply meaningful things we're feeling, thinking, and experiencing. Maybe we're afraid to bring certain things out into the open or are on the fence about wanting to discuss them. Sometimes we know we've got something we're unsure about sharing and are keeping it to ourselves. And sometimes we surprise ourselves by what comes out.
00:01:08
Speaker
that you Welcome to the Doorknob Comments podcast. I'm your host, Grant Brenner, with my co-host, Dr. Farrah White. Today, our guest is Robin Stern, PhD. Robin is the co-founder and senior advisor to the director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. She's a licensed psychoanalyst with 30 years of experience treating individuals, couples, and families. She is the author of The Gaslight Effect, The Gaslight Effect Recovery Guide, and is host of The Gaslight Effect podcast. Robin is the author of hundreds of articles published in popular media, including The Washington Post, Psychology Today, and Harvard Business Review, translating science for the general public. Welcome, Robin. Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here with you, Grant and Farah, and um I look forward to our conversation.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, we're really um excited to speak with you today because I think you know we do a lot of talking about relationships um and I know that is your area of expertise.
Understanding Gaslighting: Origins and Examples
00:02:11
Speaker
i I'm curious how you got started and what sort of appealed to you you know about the the gaslight effect and it inspired you to to write the book and then um and then the workbook, which I have right here. Thank you. Well, I'll be happy to start it somewhere with that the answer to that question. i think I think I've always been a therapist. I remember when I was very young, um I grew up on Long Island and I in the town called Garden City, which was a like a prototype for the suburbs. And I had a front stoop and I used to sit down on my front stoop and friends would come and we would talk through their problems. and
00:02:53
Speaker
So from the earliest ages, I've always been very interested and curious about what was going on for other people in their lives. And of course, growing up as a young girl and having sleepover parties and parties of girls getting together, we spent a lot of time unpacking relationships and our motivations. And so I've always been interested in that. And then I read a few books where the psychologist saved the day. And I remember one book, maybe it was, I Never Promised You, Rose Garden. The psychologist was drinking a Diet Coke and had her feet up on her desk, and and she was talking through the issues for her patient. And that really appealed to me. That kind of, not necessarily the Diet Coke, but definitely the relaxed way in which this psychologist was interacting with the patient and the connection, how important that connection was. So those were early beginnings of, gee, that's what I want to do for the rest of my life.
00:03:51
Speaker
And then for gaslighting, just through the years began to see more and more women who were coming into my office reporting that something was uncomfortable in their relationship or they thought there was something wrong with them or wondered whether I could tell them who was right or wrong in a relationship dynamic because somehow their intended or their partner had crossed the line where they began to feel, well, okay, he's not hitting me, but like it's weird.
Gaslighting Tactics and Their Impact
00:04:25
Speaker
It's like am like, am I crazy? Am I crazy or is he crazy? um Is it okay to be uncomfortable about this? And through the years when there was, ah got the channel that plays the old movies, when that channel played the movie Gaslight, I was fascinated. Because like the women I was seeing in my practice,
00:04:46
Speaker
This story was about this confident, confident, self-assured, adoring wife, this diabolical, really evil gaslighter guy we come to find out. And you watch her devolve in the movie over a period of minutes. I recommend that people watch it. It's fascinating. She starts out by hearing something from her husband. I think he says, gives her a brooch that he belonged to his relative, and she Oh, I treasure this. And he says, and don't forget where you're going to put it, or I'm putting it in this in your bag. Don't forget. And she thinks, what a silly comment. Like, what do you mean? Like, of course, I'm not going to forget it. And then, of course, the audience knows that her diabolical husband steals that from her from her bag. And so then, of course, she can't find it. So within a matter of 20 minutes on screen, and a matter of weeks or months in real life, she comes to think
00:05:46
Speaker
Maybe I am forgetful. Maybe he's right. Because a along the way, he continues to insist that she is forgetful, ah maybe even paranoid. He's messing with her head, as they say. And he's kind of, I guess, grooming her. He's grooming her, yes. Interesting that you brought that up, because in another area that I've come to to know while doing this work and gaslighting, gaslighting is often the gateway to grooming for a cult. It occurs to me it's also a way to test for whether someone is susceptible, right? If you try to gaslight someone a little bit, they either go for it or they don't, and then you pick the ones who go for it. I see this in online dating profiles, um and I hear about it, because sometimes you read a profile and it'll say something, and if I put myself into the mindset of the perpetrator, which you kind of have to do is as a trauma therapist, right, as uncomfortable as that can be,
00:06:44
Speaker
I think, well, if I'm a predator, what am I looking for in a dating profile? And the things that might jump out would be things like looking for someone who is faithful and won't cheat on me, which suggests that the person has a history of being in maladaptive relationships, and you know that tends to repeat. What's interesting about what you're saying is that that often the test that I would come across in hearing about it from people who survived cults or even in watching movies, there is a movie I saw a few years ago, believe the name is something like Marlene Martha May, a series of girls' names that this character had to take on in order to go through her experience. But early on in the movie, there's an episode that goes something like this, and I know that I'm not going to get it exactly right, but ah the cult leaders said, well, I want to be able to trust you.
00:07:44
Speaker
So in order for me to trust you, I'm going to have to know that you are willing to keep a secret. No matter what goes on in this office, you can't talk about it outside. And if you can hold that confidence, then I know that I can trust you. And then, of course, during those times, those blackout times, ah very egregious things would happen. Not necessarily in this movie, but in real life. I've heard these stories where people would feel violated and be violated during those times where there be sexual acting out on the part of the therapist and of course the patient can't talk about it because if she talks about it then she won't have the trust of the
Recognizing Gaslighting in Relationships
00:08:24
Speaker
therapist. So the whole framing of I need to trust you and here's what you have to do to prove it to me is completely distorted and warped and gaslight inducing.
00:08:36
Speaker
tells you how great the sort of fear of abandonment is and how you can leverage that to get power. um Just before we move past the original term, so why was that movie called Gaslighting? Thank you for that question because it was set in old England and it would the home was lit by gaslights and also there were lamps on the street that were gaslight. But this guy, the protagonist husband, was walking in the attic and the gas lights were flickering in the house as he was putting on the gas light in the attic. And so Ingrid Bergman, who played his wife, Paula, would ask the housekeeper, her husband, do you notice the lights dimming? Do you notice the lights flickering? And they would say, no, nothing, nothing was dimming. No, I don't see anything. And so this was part of his attempt to move objects and then ask her where they are and why she moved them.
00:09:33
Speaker
to ah challenge her perception, to challenge her memory, and then eventually to say, you're crazy. Certainly distressing. And I know that there are lots of of sort of present day versions of that where people will see things, hear things um that they don't like or that they're not comfortable with, um especially in these sorts of early partnerships when Everyone's still getting to know each other and presumably on best behavior. ah So I am wondering for listeners, what are some of the first signs? Because Grant, you had talked about something that you might see in a profile. I wonder if there are other things that you've come across that Robin, your patients may have brought up and you think, this is a little bit of a red flag.
00:10:29
Speaker
the The way I think about it is I've also worked with people who have so who have survived and are in recovery from relationships. They say, so well, how would I notice next time so that I can have a healthy relationship, but I can kind of recognize the perpetrators right away. And a lot of times there's like a blind spot for those things. And yeah it's nice to actually like, well, here's what you look for. Well, and a lot of times, and maybe this came up in another conversation we had there, ah people go through this process of disavowal. They they don't deny that it happened, but somehow like they make believe it it went away. And that often happens, especially early on, because in a situation, let's say on a first date fair, we're talking about dating early on, somebody says something to you like, well, you're flirting with these people. Is that who you are as I'm getting to know you? And you think that's really silly or it's really like not okay, but the guy is so cute.
00:11:25
Speaker
and he took you to this great place for dinner, and he, after all, lives the kind of life that you want to live, and he goes to sports events, and you like sports events, and he goes to theater, and you like theater, and so all of a sudden. Checks the box. Checks the boxes, and you feel that this sense of discomfort, but then you begin to feed the other things that you feel. Early on, if you are feeling that kind of discomfort, pay attention rather than just dismissing it or just looking at the other side of the picture. If you are constantly second guessing yourself, if you are listening to conversations that suddenly ah pivot in the middle, you're asking a question like, where were you last night? And the response is something about you like, what are you paranoid now? That is a sure sign that that guy is or that person is going to use that strategy to do that again to you.
00:12:21
Speaker
Do you also find that people will argue both sides of it, like almost like the the angel and the devil on each shoulder, like, well, he seems really nice and he brought me flowers, but hey, he is telling you that what you thought was true isn't true, and that's a bad sign? All the time. All the time as stage one bleeds into stage two. um Because you begin to to hear that otherwise this is not True. It's not positively true. I worked with someone, I worked with a man who was dating a woman and he said, I know she's lying to me. i My friends saw her on a dating site, but when I confronted her with it, she said, no, that wasn't really me. It was somebody who looks like me or maybe it was an old dating site and I forgot to take it down. He said, I know it's not true because I can never reach her when we're not together. But when I confront her with it, she says it's true and we have such a great time together and
00:13:18
Speaker
Bonded in so many other ways and so I don't know like what do you think and I know you know one thing that that I do know for sure is that when People experience physical abuse or when your partner is cursing and screaming at you It's very easy to say he did it or they did it or she's crazy But when there's this more distrust of your own um perceptions that's happening over time. It's very easy, especially for women, to point their finger at themselves and say, there's something wrong with me. right Because of the gender bias in society, which sort of conditions women to doubt and defer. And and to accommodate. but Be nice, accommodate.
Psychological Effects of Gaslighting
00:14:07
Speaker
And there's nothing wrong with accommodating. Actually, it's wonderful to be able to accommodate to somebody's
00:14:12
Speaker
movie choice or to somebody's vacation choice or even to somebody's whatever, whatever. But when you accommodate to the point where you're giving up pieces of yourself and what you know to be true, you're in danger. Well, a compromise should be reciprocal. right Or it should be limited to how much can we accommodate before we start getting uncomfortable. A lot of times when people bring something up, it's because they're not sure how uncomfortable they should be. And they trust us as a sort of outside opinion. um Maybe it's something shameful to share. Yeah, reality check. But also, there may be a reason that they're telling us and not a girlfriend. Yeah. And and when you talk about like,
00:15:01
Speaker
of the reality check and definitely I want to get to the stigma too but when you talk about a reality check it's so interesting because if I said to you Farah I really like your orange shirt you would say thanks but I'm not wearing an orange shirt right and I say oh come on you know it's an orange shirt and you would not have to negotiate with yourself to think whether or not it's an orange shirt you wouldn't have to negotiate with me you wouldn't have to defend yourself you would just think I don't know what you would think, but you would know it's an orange shirt. shirt So when when in the gas lighting process do we give over that reality check to someone else?
00:15:41
Speaker
And that's something concrete and tangible. It occurs to me that a lot of these things that gas sliders can do, my favorite couple's example, which is pretty innocuous, is which way is the toilet paper supposed to be? Is it bangs or or a mullet? you know And everyone knows it needs to go over the top because, you know like obviously. But you could if you wanted to mess with someone, you could you could flip that around and tell them that they put it on wrong. and start getting them to doubt. And so you can kind of lie is what I'm saying with behaviors. You can move things and it's kind of a physical lie. and Just like you can just say whatever you want with words, right? You could say, no, your shirt is definitely orange or, okay, well, it's it's kind of orange tinged. It's off white, but it looks orangy to me.
00:16:25
Speaker
If something is concrete, you will know it. well You know if the door is left open or not. You'd have to be really kind of out of touch with reality to doubt that. But when it comes to words and symbols, right a lot of it is just social consensus. And so Farah, to your point, right if you're two people in an echo chamber, it's very different from if you have one person. But I've also been in the situation with patients who are in abusive relationships where i'm I'm very clear and may reference it say to your book or a diagram from your book and say here these are all the things and they're all going on and the person will still oh I know what you mean and then then they've they already have like Stockholm syndrome they already have identification with the aggressor and they're already defending the other person's gaslighting and at that point they're like gaslighting themselves in some way.
00:17:16
Speaker
or they they don't even need a gas lighter to do it anymore because they've stepped into his shoes and they can take on that perspective. I know then what I call stage three of gaslighting, um the one of the examples that I've written about is a woman went to a store to get dinner. And while she was in the store, she realized that they had not ah they had run out of the Atlantic salmon and the wild salmon. And so she had to buy farm raised salmon. And as she was shopping, she began to think, you know he's right, I don't love him enough. you know If I really loved him enough, I would have gotten to the store early to make sure that they didn't run out of the wild salmon. But I'm so selfish that I was home on the phone with one of my friends and I didn't think I need to get to the store on time because I want the the wild salmon for dinner. So she takes on and took on the perspective of the gas lighter.
00:18:11
Speaker
I think that makes me think of the gender bias, too. It's like being a good homemaker. Yes, that often comes up. But i if if I had a couple who was arguing about toilet paper incessantly, I think would think that there were a whole host of other things that may be going on inside. Yeah, I think there's a level of comic relief, right? It's an uncomfortable subject. even you know The comedic part of my brain is thinking that wild-caught and farm-raised salmon are different shades of orange.
00:18:43
Speaker
There's something, you know, that we touched on a little bit, and it's a concept that I think is really important. So I'm wondering if we can talk more about this idea. You know, we have the one person who's in the store and has this very sort of self-flagellating narrative, like, oh, I'm just talking to my friend, I shouldn't be doing that. What about this idea of a partner trying to make you better or saying this is for your own good. And can we talk about how sort of toxic that is? And is there any way for it to sort of masquerade as other things?
Coping Strategies for Gaslighting
00:19:24
Speaker
Well, thank you for bringing that up, because one of the examples we've talked about, the three of us, um the last time we spoke, really fits that narrative. And so the couple walking down the street in her neighborhood as
00:19:38
Speaker
ah they're dating and she's saying hello to people and he's accusing her of flirting and she doesn't think um she's flirting and so she pushes back and and thinks that he's being weird and he keeps insisting that she's flirting and so um they have a conversation about their relationship but he says ah you can do something for a relationship that will be really helpful and what you can do to stop our fighting is you can look at the sidewalk instead of gazing out front of you so that people will not flirt with you or greet you and you won't be tempted to flirt, even though you're saying you're not flirting, what happens? She does that. She starts when they go out um looking at the sidewalk and she notices that they're not fighting. And so it's great, right? He was right. He had the cure all for their fighting.
00:20:31
Speaker
and The point at which she came in to see me was when he took it to the next level and he said when we go out to dinner You'll always face the wall that way people won't see you as being open to being greeted and we won't we will continue to have a great dinner we won't be fighting over dinner and she again thought he's right like that's that's the way to be a good partner, but that is extreme or more that more extreme version of the sidewalk now she's facing the wall um left her uncomfortable enough that she sought a space therapy to to Unpack that and she said well, what do you think like it feels a little weird, but he's right like it works it was really hard to Help her to take apart what she called his flawless logic
00:21:25
Speaker
to see it as the way he was framing it in his distorted view, in his manipulative view, right, to control the narrative, ah rather than her owning her own view. She was trapped in that view, which seemed to her to be very logical. You know, and a lot of people wouldn't raise the alarm after the second thing, right? The next thing is like, let's not go out and we shouldn't see your family. And I don't think that friend is really a good friend for you, the isolation. And that's a key part of what happens um in the gaslight gaslighting relationships over time. Not only does your controlling other want you to be isolated, shame begins to creep in.
00:22:13
Speaker
So a lot of people I've spoken to, women through my office through the years and and men too, talk about how ashamed they are that they're even in a relationship that they feel like can't even talk to their friends about because their friends would say, that's not cool or you seem unhappy or like you're not, you don't seem like yourself. And so there's a part of them that knows that it's not okay. But when they start to think about it, there are all these other ways that they can argue the other side. and stand in their lover's shoes to look at themselves differently. So very problematic to be isolated and then to continue the isolation, not only because your partner wants you to continue it, but because you're ashamed.
00:23:06
Speaker
Join a claimed educator, psychoanalyst, and author of the bestselling book, The Gaslight Effect, Dr. Robin Stern on The Gaslight Effect podcast, where Robin interviews fascinating guests and explores gaslighting in relationships, cults, and culture. You'll learn what it truly means to be gaslighting, how it feels, how to recognize it, how to understand it, and ultimately how to get out of it. Join Dr. Robin Stern on The Gaslight Effect podcast. Episodes can be streamed at robinstern.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you see that there are times where what the gas lighter uses is kind of a twisted version of something healthy? Like, hey, we're supposed to grow together. That's a part of a healthy relationship is we help each other grow as people. Of course, of course. So here's an example. I know I cheated on you, but marriage is about being able to
00:24:02
Speaker
ah push the envelope. Marriage is about loving someone with all their flaws. And you know after all, like you don't travel with me on my business trips, and I'm a man, i I need to be able to be sexual. So of course I have to cheat. But you know if you don't like it, well, you know it's your fault. and And if you can't accept it, well, that's okay because you just have to forgive me anyway, because we're married. Right, or you don't dress up nice since you had kids. Exactly, or you gain whatever. You gain self-esteem and it's not attractive anymore. That's my def defense of humor again, sorry. Right. I think when somebody gains that self-esteem where they're really stepping into their own reality and reclaiming their reality, their integrity, it's impossible to stay in the gaslighting relationship. And if you have to stay, for example, your job depends on it or you're raising kids and you
00:25:01
Speaker
can't free yourself that marriage. So what do you do at that point? Hopefully you can limit it. Hopefully you can pay attention to your own triggers or your gas lighters triggers. You can take time away. You can check in with your feelings and honor your feelings. And you can opt out of those conversations by just saying things like, you know, sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Or I know you believe that really strongly. I don't. Or that just is wrong to me. Sorry. You learned to feel comfortable with the truth. Yeah, sorry, Farrah. I really like that idea because I think that you're right, Robin. People imagine that, well, there's no way to change this relationship. There's no way to stand up for myself without losing someone that maybe they really care about. And I think it's equally powerful to be able to say to someone,
00:25:58
Speaker
I'm not going to continue to be gaslighted in this way, um or even just demonstrating. Like, you know what? I'm going to be home from our girl's dinner after we get the check. And that's the way it's going to be. um And then seeing how much the other person can accept and being able to sort of make the distinction between what's healthy and um collaborative and respectful for a relationship versus what's what's not. Yeah. and i'm always And I wonder if you find this also in your practices.
00:26:37
Speaker
like fascinated with, like, what is that actual moment where you move from, I want to be collaborative, I want to accommodate, um I want to be empathic and really understand where you're coming from, to, like, he's right. There's nothing wrong, actually, with asking the question, maybe he's right, if you're not already accusing yourself in the question. and Because it is okay, so maybe I am sensitive. That doesn't mean that you didn't leave me waiting for three hours, but I am sensitive. So is there something that I want to work on? Always okay to think about that. But when it's coming up continuously, when every conversation is a pivot and some blaming or shaming of you, rather than an accountability somebody being accountable for the and even answering the question.
00:27:34
Speaker
yeah There really should be mutuality and room for multiple perspectives and it's both and I'm insecure and what you're saying is valid to some extent. I think people use the term gaslighting quite a lot and I'm i'm sort of divided. I wanna ask whether there are things that could be construed as gaslighting, but which maybe are a different kind of dysfunctional communication. Well, you can just be a bully, straight up be a bully. And um I'm not putting up with this shit, you know, or you're just a pain in the ass. And if you insist on a negative, ah if you insist on being critical and negative and um putting somebody down over time and that person has given power over to you or idealizes you or is living with you full time and you're the channel that they're listening to,
00:28:28
Speaker
Gaslighting can happen even if you're not doing that pivot yourself. But the the mark of gaslighting is that pivot. it's not um It's not that I have a different opinion. It's not that i ah I think this movie's better than you than the movie you're putting out. And it's not always just the words, of course. It's the tone. You're forgetful ah again. That's the moment of attempted coercive control. Yes. It's almost like a hypnotic technique. Yes. And yeah so in in my language, the language I used in the book, where I talk about people engaging in this, even if inadvertently, ah but making a choice to to take the hand of the gas cider when he's extending his hand, come tangle with me.
Therapists' Role in Addressing Gaslighting
00:29:16
Speaker
And so you are stepping into it the minute you start to say, but I'm not paranoid, but don't you remember that
00:29:25
Speaker
um Last night I couldn't reach you and I didn't ask you where you were it was just because XYZ and you begin to try to negotiate and and establish yourself as someone who's worthy and You're defending yourself rather than saying I'm out of here like no matter. What is the reality of the argument? I don't ever want to feel like this when I'm when my boyfriend husband partner family member is talking to me like So it's kind of like learn to recognize that and don't participate. And don't participate. And I think that actually that's a very hopeful thing because even though people say, well, but are you saying that it's the gas IT's fault? No, it's not the gas IT's fault, but somehow inadvertently you are participating. So you can any day choose the attitude um or mindset or step into the mindset of
00:30:20
Speaker
I know I've been participating in this, but I just don't want to do it anymore. This is called gaslighting and I need to stand in my truth and I need to write down my truth so I remember if I think I might forget. And I'm going to write down these conversations so I see where they pivot because I just don't want to do this anymore. This is all so fascinating, really. And I do like the idea of people being able to sort of extricate themselves. as well as being able to stand up for themselves within the relationship. And I did want to ask you because I think some of our listeners will be curious about whether the stuff, you know, social media stuff comes up. Um, this idea of, well, you know, I was talking to this guy now we're in a relationship.
00:31:12
Speaker
and exclusive and he still follows 25 scantily clad influencers and likes all of their bikini photos. um Is that my own insecurity? He's sort of gaslighting me maybe and telling me these are coworkers and he's just being friendly. And you know how do we tease that apart? Or maybe it's the woman who wants to post certain things and comfortable. So I do feel like we're navigating this whole new world. Everybody has different sort of standards of acceptability for themselves and their partners. yeah And
00:31:55
Speaker
Do you see that unfold um real time in your practice? I think that's a good question. I want i want to add one piece to what you're saying Farrah and for you Robin, is what I often see is people get hung up on intention. Do they intend to do it or not? And what I'm often saying is kind of deal with intention later, just know that it doesn't work for you first. So tell me more about what, like give me an example of what you mean by that. So for example, did he intend to hurt my feelings or is it not his fault because he grew up in a tough household and his father was mean to him? So you know he doesn't really mean it. Instead of focusing on, is this meeting my needs? No.
00:32:41
Speaker
they focus on is the person to be forgiven or excused? buts So I think that it's very tempting to try to explain the behavior. We all try to make sense out of things. And that's very common when we are empathic, when we're socialized to like see the other perspective all the time to take to stand in his shoes and say, well, or to imagine what it's like to stand in his shoes and even imagine his upbringing. So his mother wasn't adequate and so therefore, therefore But as much as you can understand and feel empathic, because maybe that's all true, he grew up watching porn. And so of course he's going to be tempted because it's right there. And how could he say no? And he's he didn't really even try to to see it. It just popped up on his computer. You may explain it to yourself and it may even be the case. Doesn't mean you need to stay in the relationship when it makes you so uncomfortable.
00:33:36
Speaker
You know, I've heard um women say to their partners, I wish I were the kind of person for whom that didn't matter, but I'm not, I'm not. So you may have a really good explanation and maybe you didn't intend to, and maybe you're telling me that you can't help it, but I can't hang out for that. I'm wondering, you know, because no doubt there's some people who could be listening to our podcast who are the perpetrators, who are are the gaslighting people. what What would you say to them? I would say um that you are also deserving of compassion. People are not born gaslighters. You weren't born. It's not like ah it's not a diagnosis in the DSM. It's not a personality disorder. It is a series of strategies or learned behaviors that either you saw, you experienced, or you happened into. And by happening into, I mean,
00:34:34
Speaker
Um, somebody said, you know, I try to reach you and where were you last night and you don't want to tell them. And so suddenly you find yourself on the spot. And so what do you do? You deflect it. Oh, well, what was your problem that you had to know where I was every day? Are you so like hovering micromanaging? Like what's your deal? Rather than thinking, wait a minute. I don't like that answer. You're thinking perhaps what is my deal? Right? So the gas lighter. is not necessarily a bad person, but just trying to deflect the conversation away from taking responsibility or from an outright lie. And the gas light tea accommodates that. And so it worked because it does work. It does work. And once the gas light tea has begun to second guess themselves, then you're really like you're dancing with Tango. The longer you're in the relationship,
00:35:31
Speaker
where you're second guessing your reality accommodating to theirs, the harder it is to leave. It's incredible how long it can take. It just is hard for people to make sense. People, you know, and Farah, oh if you have a last question, I see we're close to time. It's been really fascinating. Thank you, Robin. This is sort of an infinitely deep topic and unfortunately so relevant. People say, well why did well, how come you're in therapy so long? You know, I read about this brief therapy, but it is so entrenched. And unless you've kind of really worked with people and, you know, I've worked with people where as a therapist, I can be very straightforward. Like this is what's happening. This is gaslighting. And it can be very, very hard to make the decision or to come come to see reality. And the I think the other thing that happens sometimes in therapy is that the
00:36:24
Speaker
um the person who's been gaslighted wants the therapist to take over the role of, you tell me what the reality is.
Introducing the How We Feel App
00:36:33
Speaker
And it can be tempting because you might be sitting there sitting on your hands thinking like, you've got to be kidding me, right? Yeah, they can be guessing each other too. Yeah. And you know, it you can be listening to something that is so hard to believe that somebody would accommodate to. And yes, it's almost absurd to think about it. But no matter how difficult it is, no matter how unbelievable it is, like you're there. And what happens when people are really consumed in a gaslighting relationship is that they report feeling like I don't even recognize myself. Like it's soul destroying. Like i'm I have no ego left. I have no identity. I can't make decisions. So that in getting out of a gaslighting relationship, encouraging,
00:37:22
Speaker
compassion and patience for yourself, but also um taking the opportunity to make even small decisions. I like this. I don't like this. Farrah, last question. any Anything on your mind? And yeah it would be great to follow up with examples and stuff, but yeah what do you think? Well, I think we touched on some really important points here. I think people will be able to recognize um gaslighting as it's happening. And my only real question is, you know, how can people follow you, find you? um I know you have a podcast of your own. So we definitely want to link to all of that. But yeah, tell us what you're what you're doing most recently. yeah And an incredibly useful app for understanding emotions. Oh, definitely checking in with your emotions becomes easy. And um you learn a lot more if you
00:38:18
Speaker
get the app called How We Feel. And it is a co-creation of our team at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and a team put together by the founder of Pinterest. And his tech team or made amazing designs and all the backend technology. And you can understand more about your feelings. You can follow the patterns of your own moods and emotions through a week, through a month, um And you can learn how to better deal with them if you use the app. So I would recommend how we feel to everyone. And um I really loved our conversation. i I'm left with questions like, tell me what you've witnessed in your lives about gaslighting outside the office and when did you get get to know about gaslighting or when did you begin to think it was important? So those are my questions to be continued another time.
00:39:15
Speaker
and Robin Stern, easy to find, great material. You have your own podcast, which is well worth listening to. Thank you, Grant. And I wonder if there can be a module on how we feel, which is kind of a, I don't intend this in a tongue in cheek way, but something that can be specifically useful for people who are trying to find their way out of dysfunctional relationships like gaslighting. Certainly something to think about. Thank you. Well, I look forward to a next time when we will continue a conversation and maybe hear about what's going on and what you've learned about gaslighting through your work. And I would say to everyone listening, just have patience with yourself and compassion. It is not easy to either be in it or to leave. Thank you so much for inviting me.
00:40:03
Speaker
You're welcome. and And for listeners, yeah, please feel to reach out to us. Doorknob Comments, easy to find at doorknobcomments.com. We would love to get your suggestions, feedback, insights, and so on. Feel free to reach out. Thanks for listening. Remember, the Doorknob Comments podcast is not medical advice. If you may be in need of professional assistance, please seek consultation without delay.