Transcript
Chris Minnick: Yes. and
Chris Penick: Static free.
Chris Minnick: Mm -hmm.
Chris Penick: Yes We we eliminate static cling.
Chris Minnick: Yeah, I mean, that's you know these things are important.
Chris Penick: See you. There you go. And we're going to talk about. All sorts of learning things. And if you've seen our first two episodes, you've seen then our just, hey, what we're about and getting to know us. So I am Chris Penick, sometimes known as DJ Crispy.
Chris Penick: At some point... I guess we'll have to put that into... a show as to how we got those but I don't think it's vital.
Chris Minnick: Yeah, I mean, i my name's... Chris Minnick also.
Chris Penick: There we go.
Chris Minnick: ah i My nickname is C Money. And actually, I wanted to mention that the nickname C Money was given to me by my. filmmaker friend Marlene Rhine, who is in the process of shooting.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: It's cool that it's happening.
Chris Penick: All right. All right. Okay. So if this is your first time. tuning into us, then... All you need to know. The good thing is that This is my brother from another mother because he's.
Chris Penick: You know, he is a Christopher James. And I am a james christopher difference minic and pinic, but still. Yes, and we've we found out so many weird quinces like that.
Chris Penick: That, uh...
Chris Minnick: We both came from state. We're born in states that start with the letter M.
Chris Penick: Yeah. There you go. We'll figure. Start with the letter M. stays the start with an M. As if there's only, you know, one or two of those, right? Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Okay And but we are all about learning. Learning. on your own, learning in school, learning in the university, learning on the job. We're all about learning. And and I like to say, and I say it very often, that you know learning is living.
Chris Penick: Or maybe living is learning. yeah It works both ways. And you know we are going to talk about that a little bit today. I have... Probably gonna, I'm gonna... Nag a good chunk of this episode today.
Chris Penick: you know not that I don't do that often anyway, but.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I i want to talk about... Something that I've noticed with especially self -directed learners, or if you want to be fancy, self -didactic. people, right? When that is, you know, you're trying to learn something on on your own. You want to go learn how to skateboard or you want to go learn. I don't know.
Chris Penick: pick Pick something. Anything. You want to paint. You want to draw. You want to dance. You want to ah know how to speak. Russian, French, German, Spanish. You want to? get better at math because you didn't pay attention to your math teacher in high school.
Chris Penick: any of these things. There's... One big important piece with that, and and I find it all the time, especially when students come to the classroom, I can tell. at the beginning. I'm not always right. Chris, how does this work with you? do Can you tell who's going to be some of the successful students? At the beginning, do you get...
Chris Penick: It takes a little bit.
Chris Minnick: You get you get a sense. I think that you know, there are people who if somebody ah Smiles? When they, you know, come first in the classroom or, you know, is it's it's subtle hints.
Chris Penick: Mm -hmm. Yeah. well Hmm.
Chris Minnick: And I can i can i can tell, you know, who.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Who wants to be there? And I think that's.
Chris Penick: Oh. Wanting to be there.
Chris Minnick: you know The first step is wanting to be there.
Chris Penick: Okay
Chris Penick: Okay, that's good. All right. So that's going to fake factor in into my discussion today. All right, because what I want to talk about. All right. What I want to talk about is mindset. all right You can think attitude. You can think whatever it is. i just I had this little epiphany earlier today when I probably should have been doing other things. but So I just started scribbling some notes. so Chris, see money's going to play the victim for me here. I'm going to ask him a few questions here and I'm just going to, I'm going to try a few things. i gonna All right. One thing. All right. All right, Chris.
Chris Penick: Just hold on here now.
Chris Minnick: Yes, Chris.
Chris Penick: I bet somewhere on your computer. There is like a a folder. or a tab you've had open since like March. or you've got an email receipt for some course you signed up from for, and you maybe or a book you bought. that you know you maybe read three chapters or the video course you watched three videos and then you meant to get back to.
Chris Penick: But there was something like that. Am I Do I have a good prediction?
Chris Minnick: that that That is my life. It is a good prediction. Yes.
Chris Penick: Okay, okay All right. So you waited to get back to it. But you didn't. Right. There you go. i'm I'm in there. I'm right there with you.
Chris Minnick: Oh, I still will.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: I have i have a list of... 35 currently bookmarks that auto open when I start my browser.
Chris Penick: Okay, there you go.
Chris Minnick: Because these are things that I want to learn.
Chris Penick: There you go. I don't feel so bad anymore. Okay. There you go. Right. So somewhere in the months. Days, weeks, ah or whatever order it was in, how long ago it was, you kind of quietly filed away the evidence, in a sense. It's still in your mind, right?
Chris Penick: And, and maybe now I don't think this is the case for you because you and I have this attitude, but I have a feeling. And so listener answer this for me. if you know, maybe you just thought you're not one of those self -taught people.
Chris Penick: And, you know, that ah yeah, i it's it's a talent or something. You know, some people have a natural ability for this or some people are just. born learners. Okay. And. I am going to state right now that no, please stop. First thing, it wasn't. discipline.
Chris Penick: And it it it wasn't how you wired. It's not wiring in your brain. all right Because, by the way, we do want to talk about, you know, Chris and I, you know. ah feel very strongly for the ADHD community. we have We'll talk about our...
Chris Penick: association with that and maybe in future episodes but that that's another thing right and there are all sorts of or you know dyslexia and i've dealt with other learning disabilities um that's that's a whole nother thing and that still doesn't change mindset.
Chris Penick: Right. It's not wiring. It's not my it's it's there are five beliefs, I think, that people have. that of what learning is supposed to feel like. And the problem is all five of those are wrong.
Chris Penick: And they're all fiber fixable. all right and that's what i want to talk about Okay, five.
Chris Minnick: Five. Alright.
Chris Penick: I got five. Five's my number.
Chris Minnick: Five of them.
Chris Penick: Five of them. Okay. So the first one, all right. is that most of us probably have like some sort of... sort of silent rule in her head. Okay. Let me, let me, if you ever thought this, maybe when you're younger, I know Chris, you probably don't think this way now.
Chris Penick: But. Play play along with me here. Help me out a little bit here when you were younger.
Chris Minnick: Can do.
Chris Penick: Okay, if you did something and Especially like maybe elementary, middle school. and it felt hard. It felt. difficult.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: So you you're There's a part in your... brain that goes, okay, that felt hard. I must be bad at it. did did Did that thought ever cross your mind?
Chris Minnick: Yes, absolutely.
Chris Penick: Okay. I mean, I'm i'm not going to ask, I'm not going to force you to elaborate. I don't want to, you know, if you want to, please feel free on any of these. I know there, I know there are yes, no questions right now. um But that's specifically, yeah, yeah.
Chris Minnick: No, I mean this is, you know. for me specifically
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Uh... I grew up in a very musical family. I have an older brother who was this guy. G. is a genius musician you know just he's he's he he is you know
Chris Penick: Oh, nice. Yeah.
Chris Minnick: I.
Chris Penick: Ska band, folks.
Chris Minnick: Just...
Chris Penick: Ska. Look it up.
Chris Minnick: can play and you know way beyond sky you can do but
Chris Penick: Ska. Hmm.
Chris Minnick: I grew up believing that I was bad at music because I couldn't do the things that he does. He's five years older than me. And he was, you know, just playing like
Chris Penick: See? Yeah.
Chris Minnick: instruments like from when he was very young and I never even tried because when I picked up a guitar I was bad at it.
Chris Penick: Yeah, see
Chris Minnick: ah without ever actually bothering to. Practice.
Chris Penick: Oh, see that in that. Okay. I've been there too. i i the guitar actually kind of touched a ah sore point there right now it's like i have been an intermediate player for many decades now and i'm like don't want to do that you know it's like How many times have I tried to learn? I'm going to learn the the caged system or whatever, the fretboard. Eh, it doesn't happen. So I'm going to tell you, okay, if you think...
Chris Penick: It felt hard. I must be bad at it. If that thought or something like that ever crossed your mind, I'm going to tell listeners, I'm going to tell people watching this. That's backwards. That's entirely backwards. It's just the opposite, okay? so ease is what, when something's easy, that's what already knowing something feels like.
Chris Penick: If it's easy. then you already know it. There's nothing to learn. right i Mean high school students college students. I bet you yeah I mean I did this in high school So...
Chris Penick: Um... i I was never much of a highlighter. I did like to make scribbles in my books. you know but i don't know were you a highlighter did you like if you got a reading assignment
Chris Minnick: All right.
Chris Penick: The... the thing Go for it.
Chris Minnick: Honestly, i was I was never very good at school. uh just in general is very bad at school But, um...
Chris Penick: and Okay.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: I would I would. True. when i when i had to learn something I would do everything I could to make it not be school. And so i one of my favorite techniques for...
Chris Minnick: um practicing math was to set up a video camera. I was really in big end into shooting video.
Chris Penick: Oh, okay.
Chris Minnick: And I would make i make a little movie of myself. um Like.
Chris Penick: Okay. Okay. So that.
Chris Minnick: reciting equations.
Chris Penick: All right. Well, that's perfect. OK, so that's perfect because that's actually something I'm going to get to in just a second. That's one of the five. You're on the five.
Chris Minnick: Oh, cool.
Chris Penick: Good. there That's good.
Chris Minnick: Alright.
Chris Penick: OK, so because like what I see a lot and I've seen this in my own kids sometimes, they weren't. that battered. but My oh I won't I won't name names. There you go they'll They'll get after me later when they see this but I did see one of my family members had they were reading I believe it was Frankenstein ah for school.
Chris Penick: It was one of these books, you know, one of the classics that you get in every, it looked like every page had a little flag on it and everything was highlighted. And like when everything's highlighted, then nothing is of special importance.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Right. And so.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: But I used to do that. I used to get like a social studies book. I'd highlight sections or college.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I remember doing that. I took art history class and I would highlight things in the art history book and then go back and reread them and somehow feel that I was studying.
Chris Minnick: Mm hmm.
Chris Penick: Well, that's frictionless, right? That, that does, that's easy. That feels so. it It feels like I'm doing something, but it teaches you close to nothing.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: There's still no pain. All right um um I'm gonna sound like a gym guy here for a second. We're gonna talk pain. And so there's a name for that.
Chris Minnick: Pain.
Chris Penick: There's actual name for that in in learning theory. They call that desirable difficulty. so the material that feels harder while you're doing it. is usually the material that stays.
Chris Penick: That's what stays in your head. If it feels like a struggle, And i've said this and again chris in an earlier episode tried to get me to go to this quote. I have a a wonderful music professor who i had a loved and hated because he would tell us when we were having difficulties with an assignment, he said, the learning is in the struggle.
Chris Penick: The learning is in the struggle. So, you know, things like people say things like. I don't know. You're gonna learn a language. I don't get French. Well, that's a mood, right? I don't understand why I need to use a different verb tense when I'm talking about some things in the past.
Chris Penick: That's a question. And the question is...
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: more of an easier way to find an answer. Right? Wait, I see something. You were going to comment?
Chris Minnick: oh no no that that's i mean the the whole like i don't get why i gotta do this you know when people like fight the actual reality of things you know that they're trying to learn and just be like
Chris Penick: Mm hmm.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Oh. it
Chris Minnick: Uh. why does it have so many verb tenses? And it's like, Dude.
Chris Penick: ah Yes. Because it does.
Chris Minnick: This has been around for a long time.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: long way longer than you thought to challenge whether it should be the way it is
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Right.
Chris Minnick: So.
Chris Penick: Right.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So, okay. So then that's the, so that's the. First thing I want to... close up the first one with okay so the first one is that feeling of don't be oh no I can't learn instead, right?
Chris Penick: Because you you don't want to chase a feeling of understanding. if you you know What you want to do is chase a better question. Find a better question if you don't understand something look and that's kind of what you were doing I loved it with with your reciting your equations on the video that's actually related.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I think we've mentioned before, like Feynman method. We haven't talked about what that is, but Hey, stay tuned.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: or Later episodes. We'll talk about. the Feynman method. um So, all right, all right, we're going to play another game then here since i've got you playing my my student here All right, I want you to Let's see You probably, okay.
Chris Penick: I want a picture of a bicycle. There you go. I'll try that one. I'll try a bicycle.
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: All right, try a bicycle. just Just take a second. I want a real one. I want to picture a real bicycle. You know, the handlebars, two wheels, the chain.
Chris Minnick: Alright.
Chris Penick: All right. you You got it? Got it in your head?
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: Okay. Now. Okay. Some of these you can answer, I bet. Some of these maybe not. Let's see. Right. So now without looking anything up, which wheel does the chain drive?
Chris Minnick: Two wheels.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: The back.
Chris Penick: Okay, good. Where exactly does it attach?
Chris Minnick: to the gears attached to them.
Chris Penick: Okay. Is there anything that connects the front wheel to the back one?
Chris Minnick: Hub.
Chris Minnick: The chain.
Chris Penick: That the chain connects to the front one
Chris Minnick: Oh, the front wheel. No.
Chris Penick: See no, no, no, I this is not to be mean this is actually what okay How how do you calibrate the brakes?
Chris Minnick: Nose. It's like... Hey. uh with the little screwdriver and the little
Chris Penick: Yeah. So, okay.
Chris Minnick: thingy.
Chris Penick: All right. This was not to put, make it mean and say, look, Chris doesn't know how to work with bicycles. um But it was more instead. you' You've seen thousands of bicycles. You probably have one.
Chris Penick: Maybe. Right.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: You've written on it. Right. And so. You've seen it. And that's familiarity. Okay, there's a difference between familiarity And. Recall.
Chris Penick: All right familiarity is yeah, I've seen it I know what it looks like and and it's why tutorials are yeah like online video and and feel like you're doing something. is two Tutorials feel productive, and everybody complains about online video tutorials, but you know people ask students ask us all the time, especially when we teach programming classes, right? And the thing is, they feel because, well, yeah, you see the software and you're like, oh, well, I could do that.
Chris Penick: Because your brain goes, oh, yeah, it makes sense. I saw it.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: It all worked. Right? but producing it yourself. which is what you did with your equations In the video...
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: That's recall. That's a real test tutorials train familiarity. But they don't. Life. or working on something trains the second.
Chris Minnick: exactly and like just watching a video over and over and over
Chris Penick: you know Oh.
Chris Minnick: very rarely does anything for you.
Chris Penick: And. And it is the thing that people try to do with language.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: um There's a big movement in language right now, so something called comprehensible input, which I get.
Chris Minnick: Mm -hmm
Chris Penick: and i And I agree with this to a point, and that is, okay, go watch like go watch movies, go watch TV in your target language. Great. Okay, but it's not going to work.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: If you truly want to be... fluent the next step has to come. you got to force yourself to recall.
Chris Minnick: yeah and always I mean
Chris Penick: You have to put
Chris Minnick: In terms of languages, sorry to interrupt.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: The most important, I mean, the best the best way to learn a language is immersion.
Chris Penick: No, go
Chris Minnick: just you know
Chris Minnick: all right
Chris Penick: Fine. you don't just You don't just learn to paint. by looking at a bunch of paintings. from the masters. That's one thing you do. You do observe the masters. And I bet you Jill could attest to that.
Chris Penick: Right. But... You also try to... produce it yourself. Right. Recall. You know you try to do it see
Chris Minnick: That's that's Mm. Yeah.
Chris Penick: Go ahead.
Chris Minnick: No, I was gonna say that
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: That. Yes. I mean, I think. you know, absolutely like. looking at art is, you know, the second most important component just as like reading is the Maybe reading may even be the first. most important component for learning how to write.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: But... um that's you know
Chris Penick: Yeah, but if you you can't call yourself a writer or that I'm learning to write if you never actually sit down and write A paragraph if all you do is read other writers or books about how to write
Chris Minnick: You still need to actually do the thing at some point.
Chris Minnick: You got a point there.
Chris Penick: Okay, so that one we've talked about There you go.
Chris Minnick: It's true.
Chris Penick: which means that you can't be afraid to make a mistake. So I'm going to just, this is this is my highlight -worthy line then, okay? I'd like to say... I... Nice!
Chris Penick: ah All right. So if you haven't been wrong yet today, then you haven't. tried to learn anything. yet today. All right. There's got to be something where you're wrong.
Chris Penick: All right. And then you've been actively learning. All right. Okay. So that. i i'm just to I'm only in point one and two.
Chris Minnick: Right on.
Chris Penick: I'm going to summarize these quickly here.
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: But i might the the problem is, too, is that that struggle. Right. That being active on this. The problem is, is that it has a shelf life of how long it lasts in people. That's the other. See, that's where I fail. I will fail so I don't know about you is that like i You know.
Chris Penick: I think I've been a wanting to learn how to play guitar better. now like i said for decades see so well the shelf life and i will go sometimes for like a month at a time not picking up my guitar
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: That's not good See, so it's that.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So. getting into. there's There's a lot that's being stuck right and there are two ways to fail that I think all right and so you know One is you quit at...
Chris Penick: minute two of it. you know you start the other one is you just grind along in silence because it feels better than admitting that I didn't make a mistake. There's got to be some sort of measurement in there.
Chris Penick: All right, so I like to, you've done this with the students when we've been working in class, you tell them, all right. five minutes if you can't You're stuck on a problem.
Chris Penick: five minutes and that's because it's you know, that's in programming.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Come find us. Ask a human. All right.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: And bring what you tried. Right. keeping eye So I think... for things outside i don't know medicine i don't know how well this i'm not a doctor and i you know Though I have played one.
Chris Penick: on you so ah Hey, that's another episode, too.
Chris Minnick: ah
Chris Penick: um But I think... 20 to 30 minutes.
Chris Minnick: ah Keep that one private, yeah.
Chris Penick: like Yeah. Yeah. So... Like, for painting. I would think like 20 to 30 minutes of an honest attempt. at trying like a certain technique.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: Maybe you're trying to do, you know, shadowing correct or whatever, or, you know, to get. eyes you're trying to draw uh hands right don't artists hate to draw hands spend 20 to 30 minutes in keeping track of how you did it.
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: Right and then see if maybe you can find the specific mistake and if you can't then ask a human Bring your notes to the human. Ask them. Find somebody who can draw hands. and do it. So I'd like to think, you know, So the point I'm trying to make is I think about There's a time limit to the struggle.
Chris Penick: Right. The struggling. stops teaching you. in And then it just starts. hurting you at a certain point. that but different topics.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: I think are going to have a different time limit to that struggle. So I know I keep quoting. you know So I guess the takeaway, maybe this would be the bullet point, is that needing... to ask for help is not. That's not a confession.
Chris Penick: All right.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: that's That's being stuck for three days. and hiding it or being stuck for decades. At the same level.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: That's the actual. failure.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: That's the part. there you know i i I keep telling myself I'm going to go get a guitar instructor. Alright, this is as much for me.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: This is self -therapy to say
Chris Minnick: Yeah, that was good.
Chris Penick: Yeah, alright.
Chris Minnick: That's good.
Chris Penick: So I think the last one, you know.
Chris Minnick: Dig it.
Chris Penick: Okay. All right, so what do we what how do we what do we like to do at the end of like You and I have done programs, which for our audience, programs are where we have a series of courses that we will do. for students for a group of students from an organization.
Chris Penick: And at the end of those... programs we often do What? what do we What do we put at the end, Mr. See money. What do we do?
Chris Minnick: Uh... What do we do at the end?
Chris Penick: Oh, maybe that was not descriptive enough.
Chris Minnick: Evaluation.
Chris Penick: Will they do evaluations?
Chris Minnick: bad Bad jokes.
Chris Penick: Bad we do those all the way through it
Chris Minnick: Uh...
Chris Penick: Yes, we still do that.
Chris Minnick: Assessment.
Chris Penick: We haven't did assessments what do okay before a few days before the end What do we do?
Chris Minnick: project.
Chris Penick: There we go, okay or capstone or project right we do a project project was the one I'm sorry I folks I tried to feed him his script He didn't you know Didn't work. There you go.
Chris Penick: So... All right, so that goes with... with, build something. That's my number four. And I'm going to summarize all these.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: And I think we can put them in the comments, but number four is build something. So like if, if, all right, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to leave programming ones out of there. But if you like, if you want to learn a language.
Chris Penick: i i thought this was a good one for me and i brought this up with chris earlier it's like okay ordering my favorite meal. in my target language you know going to a French, Spanish, whatever restaurant
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: and ordering my favorite meal that's a good small project you could do that in a week you could learn the vocabulary you need for that You can learn the proper way to say it politely. You can do all that's a good chunk and it's testable You could try it.
Chris Penick: You've got to test. The test is go to the restaurant. right And try it and see if it works. projects always tell you what to learn next. Now, hey, once I learn... How to order. Then I guess the next thing is, ooh, maybe I want to learn how to cook it.
Chris Penick: Ooh. you know, so now. I need to learn the vocabulary, you know that goes with the cooking and I need to it's that so If you hit the a wall in something I think
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: I like... I like to think if you hit the wall on the same thing three times, That wall, that's the thing to study. the wall is steady we used to Well, you talk about music.
Chris Penick: How... Did you take any music courses in school?
Chris Minnick: mm -hmm
Chris Minnick: yeah definitely i mean i studied i was in like you know high school band
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: and that's how i learned saxophone and then i you know yeah i've had uh teachers over the years.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Uh...
Chris Penick: how did they tell you to practice like if they gave you new sheet music or anything did they Do they give you any techniques or any? ways to
Chris Minnick: It would always be, you know, practice a certain amount of time over a certain over a certain amount of time, but then it also, you know, always.
Chris Penick: like hey
Chris Minnick: It was geared toward. some kind of recital. or performance and so like this is like the project kind of thing like you're saying
Chris Penick: it's a project Yeah. i I like that.
Chris Minnick: But.
Chris Penick: i i So that that my only gripe with that is that see I've had teachers like that and then I had a great Mr. Sharpio would tell us, he says, practice backwards. He said, people always get the end. The big beginning is beautiful.
Chris Penick: And then you get to the end of the piece where the piece is. And it's just.
Chris Minnick: Oh. Oh, like, okay. So like actually.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: Like, actual...
Chris Minnick: Interesting.
Chris Penick: And he would say, he would say practice backwards. And then he'd say, okay. And it's, and it's measure by measure.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Says all right you know Or maybe five four or five measures at a time.
Chris Minnick: Yeah, totally.
Chris Penick: four or five measures at a time until you get those four or five measures. Beautiful.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: Then you move to the next four. Now that's a lot of time when you think about it, like one sheet of music. you know i mean that's got you know 60 there are more measures of music.
Chris Minnick: Bet you make. You make progress that way. Yeah.
Chris Penick: Exactly. And it's measurable. You could actually.
Chris Minnick: Mm hmm.
Chris Penick: you know And he would take it as an excuse if you weren't ready. even though we you know because he would try to get you like halfway to the spring concert whatever
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: He would ask. All right. Let's see. Can you do it now? and we're like all right i'll try and you play from the beginning in the beginning sounds horrible because you followed his advice and then it reaches a certain point where it just sounds gorgeous.
Chris Minnick: m
Chris Penick: And you end with a big finish because it's all beautiful there because you've been practicing that part. He's like, I can tell how far back you got. You know, so you know, right
Chris Minnick: Yeah, yeah, no kidding. Backwards.
Chris Penick: Yes, that's it. but
Chris Minnick: That's good
Chris Penick: It doesn't necessarily have to be backwards, but it's that unit, you know, it's breaking it down, right?
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: So I like to say, scope it to something embarrassingly small. Anything you want to learn. like I like it.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I don't know you know with art I don't know what do you think? What's a small unit in art? Like...
Chris Minnick: i You know. Being able to draw a head, a face, like a front on. Face this you know it is
Chris Penick: Yeah. that's That's a good unit. Yeah My daughter's been complaining about eyes.
Chris Minnick: yeah That's, I mean...
Chris Penick: Lately. So even just a single eye She's been... She has a sh...
Chris Minnick: even just...
Chris Penick: Page of eyes. that she was working on.
Chris Minnick: seeing things like you know paint paint an orange
Chris Penick: Yeah. Yeah. or Or see...
Chris Minnick: And.
Chris Penick: Yeah. What about literature?
Chris Minnick: You think, oh, it's an orange circle. No, it's not an orange circle.
Chris Penick: It's an orange circle.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: It's not an orange circle. No No, you're right.
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: So, yeah, exactly. ah Well, what about literature? Because you're you're you're my... My lit guy. I like this. how out You're lit.
Chris Minnick: yeah I'm lit That's true.
Chris Penick: And. that That's lit.
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: It's like it's like ah the reaction So, all right. So I, so number four for me, and i I'm, um I've been taking a lot of time with this and those of you who have bared with me, please. Thank you. All right.
Chris Penick: is you know, is. picking a project right making it making it a project or better yet maybe making it something testable making it something A small test quizzes if you you know it for lack of better terms, you know, there's so that find your wall The wall helps you figure out what the next test is. How do I break through that wall? you know And then I think the last thing, there's a lot of people.
Chris Penick: you know, You've got when you're. trying to teach yourself or trying to learn something on your own. You've got no other students. You've got no. cohort like you and I work with, there's nobody around to tell you. And I want everybody to hear this. Okay. On anything you're trying to learn. Okay. So pull your ears closer to the mic or to the speaker. Sorry. I'm closer to the mic. All right. And listen to this. All right. This is important. All right. Minutes close. Ready?
Chris Penick: All right. Everyone else is struggling too.
Chris Penick: everybody else when they learn. No matter when you see some big, I don't know, what who's the, whatever, pick some. i mean i studied violin in school you studied sax you know yeah I think every single one of those people will tell you that there was a period of time.
Chris Penick: When they struggled or there's something great actors great musicians great writers There's something they struggled.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: Everyone else is struggling through.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: And if you don't. recognize that you end up in this vacuum. Where. You keep... benchmarking yourself against strangers and especially, oh, kids online these days, you know, TikTok and Instagram, they benchmark themselves against people they've never met online.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: you know, And that's why. I have a lot. This is where Duolingo. It gets my love -hate. They have a thing called leagues. which is you get experience points, XP the more you go through the thing.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: And right now, I will brag, I am number one in the semifinals of the Diamond League tournament.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Against people I don't even know.
Chris Minnick: Go Chris!
Chris Penick: They don't know. It doesn't mean anything, it right?
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So...
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: Right i've fallen victim to that because i'm trying in it, but it did do something sneaky It did encourage me to go play with duolingo more. It's an addictive thing there
Chris Minnick: ah Yeah.
Chris Penick: But it's not really putting it to the test. It's not really letting me learn. So in some of those languages that I'm studying, I can't go like order a meal.
Chris Penick: I can't. I mean, I can ask for a coffee because I've learned the word for coffee in almost every language, cafe.
Chris Minnick: aha
Chris Penick: You know, it's the same over and over again.
Chris Minnick: Very good.
Chris Penick: So there you go. I can i can order a tea. It's either Tay. Tea. Or ciao.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Or chai.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: there you go you're set But...
Chris Minnick: Cool.
Chris Penick: it's not testable. Do you see what I'm saying? It's not so. I think. it this is needs It needs to be measured. Right. So I'm going to give my last little bit is.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: So... And I. Talked about Chris with this, and i he's let me make this into mostly a monologue. And I apologize to our listeners, but it's been bugging me for a long time. So the only honest comparison That you have is with you A month or a month and a half ago.
Chris Penick: That's it. All right. Keep a log. Just put one line a day in it, a learning log, you know, what conf confused you? What clicked? Record your wins to record the wins too because you will look back on that you'll forget
Chris Penick: You will forget you will it will feel one day. Oh, this was easy all along or to someone else it will look like, and spread that news. Because to somebody else, they'll look at it and go, oh, look how easy he does this thing. Or look how easy they do that. Look how easy she gets up and, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna. Bring some guests here. I got a stand -up comedian friend. Look how easy she does the stand -up.
Chris Penick: You know.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I have a feeling if you ask them it wasn't that easy. you know
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Expect a plateau. It's going to happen. Flat stretches are normal, but that's you know not necessarily stalling. Don't quit because of the plateau. All right. Everybody underestimates.
Chris Penick: how far they've come and how much they know. So if I leave you with anything, all right, I'm gonna just put it all together, right? Confusion or struggle? All right. Confusion is the work.
Chris Penick: struggle is the practice. Test yourself instead of trusting your gut. Time box that struggle. figure out how to make it. small units. Make something.
Chris Penick: Build something. Make a conversation. Make a painting. and measure only against your past self. I think those those those are my rules for learning.
Chris Penick: And that that's it. So there you go So before you go buy another course before you all right, that's it.
Chris Minnick: So that's it.
Chris Penick: That was my big long spiel And probably now um this is the end of our podcast because everybody's going to say, man, that that that c DJ Crispy talks too much. um yeah So, alright. So with that, what are some ways to...
Chris Penick: i i'll bring up one and then i'll flip it over to you because we like to recommend things right And so I like ways to measure. And ways to...
Chris Penick: you know, work with this. Okay. So this is all about. you know so this book that da and There'll be a link. You know out there for you see make it stick the science of successful learning Peter C. Brown, Henry, I guess it's Ruttiger.
Chris Penick: i Hope I Mr. Rettiger III. If I said your name wrong, I apologize. Mark A. McDaniel. So three Harvard smart guys who went around and studied learning and teaching all across the country.
Chris Penick: and said, let's just study what's evidence bat -based that works. And one of the things was. Test yourself. they're They're all for, like, yeah yeah. teachers giving i know we all hate the pop quiz but the pop quiz used as a way to learn not for your grade It's beautiful.
Chris Penick: It's wonderful. You find out what you know. but See, so that goes back to mindset. All right. What about you, Ben? You said you had something for us too, right?
Chris Minnick: cool
Chris Penick: You had something?
Chris Minnick: Well, I mean, the the you know the what I'm reading right now.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: I'm very much enjoying Dave Eggers new book. Cantroposto.
Chris Penick: Can't propose to.
Chris Minnick: This is, he is, he's a a fiction writer. i famously wrote a ah memoir in the late 90s that you can...
Chris Minnick: check out but uh he is uh
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: One of my favorite authors. He's written some science fiction novels too about... uh sort of
Chris Penick: I didn't know it.
Chris Minnick: The horrors of social media. um The Circle is one. Which...
Chris Penick: Oh that's his! I didn't know that.
Chris Minnick: Yes. yeah and so um he but he's the man he's
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: ah He... runs a ah center for teaching kids to write in San Francisco. And. ah He is.
Chris Penick: oh
Chris Minnick: um He's the man. And so...
Chris Penick: I would love to hear what he thinks about that. about you know yeah we i
Chris Minnick: I'll see if I can get him on the podcast.
Chris Penick: Let's get him so
Chris Minnick: But then... ah
Chris Penick: Is it Eggers?
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: Is that Eggers or Eggers?
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: How do you say? What emphasis does he put the syllable on?
Chris Minnick: Eggers.
Chris Minnick: I believe it is Dave Eggers.
Chris Penick: Emphasis on the... Eggers, okay.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So dave dave If somebody will get this to you. And you will help us because all we want to do is like, hey, you want to make writers? We want to make writers.
Chris Minnick: I'll ask him.
Chris Penick: Ask him just just yeah, I mean he's just right around the corner, right?
Chris Minnick: Alright. Yep.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Yeah. Yeah. And then, okay, real quick update here. had our first ah Moving towards better AI challenge or not, not AI.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Penick: night I challenge.
Chris Minnick: I've got AI challenge in my head.
Chris Penick: You're mad about AI, I know.
Chris Minnick: No, it's because of a program I'm teaching right now where there's an AI challenge component.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: But. It is the I. learning challenge. And I challenged Mr. Penick to Spin a basketball on his finger.
Chris Penick: Not yet.
Chris Minnick: And. We are now a week into the challenge. And let's see how so he is.
Chris Penick: Oh, do you see that?
Chris Minnick: He's made some progress.
Chris Penick: A little bit. That was, that this is only, yeah this is like I said, I'm only like about a week in.
Chris Minnick: You're doing all right.
Chris Penick: and
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: And I looked up several videos. And I looked at even just like wikiHow and some of these... Places out there and they all tend to say roughly the same thing. It's it's there's there's a lot of physics and balance you were right There's a lot of physical imbalance involved in this.
Chris Minnick: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Penick: And my wife is joking too. She says, oh, great. you know you asked me to do something on my arthritic fingers so
Chris Minnick: Maybe it'll help.
Chris Penick: So... Yeah, maybe I'll help. That's right. what they They want me to you know do exercises and lift weights and all that.
Chris Minnick: Exactly.
Chris Penick: to to keep my bones healthy.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So... You gotta to get it like right in this spot. Look at this. You gotta to get it like right there.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So the it's like
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So many moving parts that you just don't even think about. And when you see the guys doing this, you know, there's standing there going like that, like you have in the image.
Chris Minnick: ah
Chris Penick: I love the screenshot for this.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: Um, That's really hard That is deceptively difficult.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I'm gonna keep trying.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I'll get there, but I don't wanna...
Chris Minnick: All right, cool.
Chris Penick: Alright. So I'm not there yet. Bye.
Chris Minnick: Alright.
Chris Penick: I have made some progress. All right. How about you? All right. Now you. Now, see... You should see I don't don't think you notice this
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: The... Anime fans out there will be mad at you that you didn't notice this. Okay, because...
Chris Minnick: No, you're you're all about the anime. i have you know i was You challenged me to draw, ah to learn.
Chris Penick: Mm -hmm.
Chris Minnick: to make up and draw. anime characters of of us. And and so.
Chris Penick: Hehehehehehe.
Chris Minnick: um me i've never listen I've never watched any anime. I i have... i've never been interested in it and so i've been actually watching some anime Uh subscribed to or I got the trial subscription for the crunchy rolls thing
Chris Penick: Yay! yay o
Chris Minnick: and so i started watching some anime as i saw one you know and one's like some kind of like Skeleton Knight. or something and i'm you know watching that and there's some some other ones
Chris Penick: Okay Alright. Do you you remember any other titles? of of what you're
Chris Minnick: I don't remember the titles, but I've just been watching like different genres and kind of just, you know, learning here, but I've also been drawing.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Penick: All right. i've Okay.
Chris Minnick: And so...
Chris Penick: Well, my son. has said oh you want to give do you want to give it up do you want to show what you've been drawing so far do you want to hold it Okay. There we go.
Chris Minnick: so This is you.
Chris Penick: This is me I can see Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: All right
Chris Minnick: Uh... So. I've been you know drawing like... bad portrait and then removing lines and so this is me in the process of
Chris Penick: Removing lines. Interesting.
Chris Minnick: removing lines from my initial drawing.
Chris Penick: That makes sense but like oh, I love this little band across the top here of hair You give you giving me more hair than I actually have I appreciate that.
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Minnick: Well, yeah, yes, you know like
Chris Penick: Thank you You know? So. What else? Yeah. All right.
Chris Minnick: Superhero strength.
Chris Penick: All right We'll get there
Chris Minnick: hair. I've got a lot more drawings in here, but this is the most recent. and so
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: I'm sticking with just showing the most recent for now
Chris Penick: Oh, you're not gonna show like where you started
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: Okay. all right all right
Chris Minnick: Later on I'll make an animation or something.
Chris Penick: Yeah, exactly well, there you go. Yeah, we could just do shots of as it progresses. i need i I'm going to record some more of these.
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: um I have to go outside. It's just been so killer hot outside to do this. Okay, but you should let me help you on with one step This is one you should find. All right.
Chris Minnick: all Alright.
Chris Penick: you Don't worry, you don't have to understand what that says.
Chris Minnick: Glasses of water.
Chris Penick: but the
Chris Minnick: What's it say?
Chris Penick: Glasses of water? No. ki Can you see the characters there? So this is an anime called Cowboy Bebop. And...
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: Cowboy Bebop And I think you can find it on Crunchyroll. If not on Crunchyroll, I know that it has been on Netflix every now and then. Do not find the latest live action reboot that came out a few years ago.
Chris Penick: I mean, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't. great it's not anime either so um Yeah, find Cowboy Bebop. That is a classic 1998, I think. and that
Chris Minnick: I've heard of it.
Chris Penick: Yes, and that will give you And I think you'll enjoy it actually too, because it has an arc that goes through the whole thing. It's only, it's a total of 24 episodes, I believe.
Chris Minnick: Mm hmm.
Chris Penick: see, so you've got and you know, it's got gangsters and crime and spaceships and
Chris Minnick: alright
Chris Penick: And, you know. and romance and and people with swords and all kinds of weird stuff. So it's it's awesome. And, you know.
Chris Minnick: Rockin'.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: Try that one.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: That one might do it.
Chris Minnick: I'm down. I'll check it out.
Chris Penick: All right Okay.
Chris Minnick: Alright.
Chris Penick: So I think we we've i've I've talked people's ears off tonight. and um We've done I appreciate everybody listening to this I'm gonna summarize them points. that we can put in there.
Chris Minnick: Awesome.
Chris Penick: Let us know. What's your project? What are you going to try to get done by, let's say this comes out on Monday, by Saturday? What are you going to build? What are you going to make? what One little thing. Remember, keep it small. a cheap testable What are you gonna go tell one joke because you want to be a stand -up comedian great try it out the office or something
Chris Minnick: Hehehehe.
Chris Penick: you know or write one page of the great american novel draw one hand because I want to learn to be an artist. and i don't know our sketch one anime character
Chris Minnick: Right on.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Yeah, let us know in the comments.
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: And also... We need one more thing. If you have any ideas for the challenges.
Chris Minnick: Just one more thing.
Chris Penick: We need to see this. The only trouble is there's no way for folks to send the challenges to us so that Only one of us can see it. Blah blah blah. That's okay.
Chris Minnick: Heh heh heh heh
Chris Penick: I guess you know because remember
Chris Minnick: I can find a way. It's not like we're, you know.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Yeah, but but you know if you have ideas for the learning challenges, we're gonna have those monthly
Chris Minnick: way
Chris Penick: Put them in the comments. and We'll ah see who becomes the volunteer. I mean the victim. I mean the volunteer. I mean, no. Yeah. Yeah the the
Chris Minnick: We might, I mean, at some point we might do like a reader challenge.
Chris Penick: if
Chris Minnick: Like this is someone suggested by the reader.
Chris Penick: I would like that I would love that
Chris Minnick: Well...
Chris Penick: I would love that.
Chris Minnick: Let's...
Chris Penick: but
