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5. Shifting Focus with Jenn Vernarsky
21 Plays2 years ago
“Don’t be afraid to ask for help, but that help might not be free.” Preach!
Jenn Vernarsky isn’t afraid to invest in herself, and it’s paid off—big time. Despite an established left-brain career in nursing, her right-brain creativity kept pulling her deeper into the world of photography.
What began with a family vacation and a starter DSLR camera quickly grew into a passion.
“There’s so much burnout in nursing,” Jenn reflects. She loved her patients, but she didn’t want that to be her fate. Maybe there was a way to have it all?
(Spoiler Alert: There was!)
Jenn strategically invested in the mentors, systems, and gear she needed to build a successful elopement and portrait photography business. One day at a time, she began tipping the scales from nursing income to generating her own revenue doing what she loved most—taking pictures.
Now, five years in, Jenn has learned a lot about how to manage clients, arrange her schedule, and learn up new skills, while picking up nursing shifts in her slow season. Most importantly, she’s learned that “Humans make mistakes.”
Her advice? Forgive yourself, learn from it, and press on. Oh, and take pictures every day!
For more inspiration, subscribe to Unbound Turnarounds on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts!
LINKS:
- Connect with Nicole
- Connect with Mallory
- Connect with Jenn: www.jennifervernarskyphotography.com
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Transcript
Introduction: Unbound Turnarounds Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Unbound Turnarounds, a podcast all about the challenges women business owners think about constantly, but rarely voice. We're Nicole and Mallory, entrepreneurs, friends, and co-founders of Business Unbound, a community helping women alleviate the headaches, heartaches, and backaches so work actually works for life. This is your safe space for the ups, downs, and the turnarounds.
Winter Preparations: Nicole & Mallory
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome back to Unbound Turnarounds. We are here again. Nicole, how is it going? It's going okay. We are in full prep mode here in Montana for the first winter storm. You've already gotten it in Canada. Unfortunately. I know, condolences. It is here. It is time. Time to hunker down. Yes. Well, that's good. So how's it going
Guest Introduction: Jen Vernarsky
00:00:55
Speaker
today? How are you feeling about our next guest?
00:00:58
Speaker
I am excited to see her sweet face again, because it's been a couple months since we've seen her. We'll talk about why, but Unbound actually brought us in touch with her in the first place. That's right. So let's see, who do we have today? So today we are chatting with Jen Vernarsky. She is originally from the Pacific Northwest, and she is all about those dynamic landscapes, all this moody weather, except maybe this is going to be too much weather.
00:01:25
Speaker
She is also importantly obsessed with Gary's anatomy, so we want to put that out there. She decided to pursue a career in photography, and she really wanted to take her clients outside and really make the most of everything Montana has to offer. She wants things to be way away from the ordinary and way into the wild, which is awesome.
00:01:47
Speaker
So she does this one-of-the-kind, adventurous Montana elopement and portrait photography, and she is just all about those silly spontaneous moments.
Jen's Balancing Act: Photography & Nursing
00:01:58
Speaker
So we, like I said, we had the pleasure of actually meeting her through Business Unbound when we did our brand photo shoot in Whitefish, Montana in May.
00:02:06
Speaker
So, we wanted to have her on. We knew that immediately when we met her and we wanted to slot her into this very first season where we're talking about the why behind why women start their own companies. And the motivations behind that are just really diverse and Jen has a great story about
00:02:23
Speaker
having two careers at once, which is something some of us have tried to do. I tried that at the beginning, but she's actually managed to still make it work and she's getting some big things that work for her life personally and professionally from both careers. So we're excited to talk about that.
00:02:39
Speaker
Welcome, Jen. We want to go ahead and kick things off with a high-low. Tell me what's a high from last couple of weeks and what's a low in your life? Well, a high for me is that October 18th marked five years in business.
00:02:58
Speaker
Oh, congratulations. That's amazing. I did like, I should have done like a five year photo shoot or something, but I didn't. But yeah, it's like crazy. And I looked at like the statistics of how many small businesses fail in like the first five years. And it's like 45%. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Not surprised though.
00:03:20
Speaker
That's amazing. Happy anniversary. Thank you. You'll be intrigued to hear this. In seven years of doing photography and five years in business, I had my first client where I told to go to the wrong location for a session.
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah, my heart sank when we realized it. I am surprised that is the first time, but yes. Yeah, I was really appalled and shocked, but this comes back to CRMs and that they aren't foolproof. It was something of we have rescheduled them and I already had them set up with a workflow for a specific location and forgot to change that workflow.
00:04:03
Speaker
the client was really understanding, but it was like CROs are not foolproof. As much as they prepare us, we can't be 100% reliable on them. No, but still worth it because you still get so much good out of it in so much time, but that is, I can feel that gut, your stomach like sinking with you. Yeah. So that happened also this month.
00:04:31
Speaker
It happened, but look, you're still here and you're still alive and you're still smiling. Everybody's okay. Yeah, so that happened. Well, thank you for sharing that and starting us off.
Jen's Nursing Journey
00:04:45
Speaker
Before we get more into the photography fun, which is exciting and I want to hear all about your entrepreneurial career.
00:04:54
Speaker
Tell us about your professional career before you went out on your own. So my professional career starts back in 2009. I started nursing school at Montana State University. I actually did a distance learning program because Montana State University does not have
00:05:14
Speaker
like an actual like full on campus in Kelisville, Montana. So I did like a, it's like a small little room next to the hospital inside of a basement of a building. At least it was back then, but it's not anymore. Yeah, we had no windows with natural light. Oh no. Oh no. Yeah. Okay. So I did my schooling through MSU, graduated in 2013 and worked at a small hospital in Whitefish, which I've actually been there 11 years now.
00:05:45
Speaker
In nursing, the first few years after I got some experience, I pushed myself to get national certifications in medical surgical nursing as well as orthopedic nursing. I've renewed those, both of them, last year for another five years. We'll see if I renew them after that point due to the number of CEs and hours put in for work.
00:06:10
Speaker
What made you want to go into nursing? You struck me when we met you as a real people person. You can confirm or deny if you were faking it so convincingly that I bought it, but you seem like someone who really likes being around people and being helpful. Was that what drove you to be in nursing? Yeah, I can't remember.
00:06:32
Speaker
Like growing up, it was never something that I was like, I want to be a nurse. And there isn't like a ton of nurses in my family. Everybody's a teacher, but science is really intriguing to me. I really love science and I love like science-based evidence and stuff like that. And so I think like, I just had this calling that like, I'm really good at taking care of people and very much the being a people person is a huge part of it, especially with like,
00:07:01
Speaker
bedside rapport and taking care of patients and being able to communicate so well with people. And I would call myself very much through my 20s, a very extroverted person. Through your 20s caveat.
00:07:19
Speaker
Yeah, I honestly like during COVID is when I actually like really honed in on my introverted side. I actually don't really, I don't really love like large crowds anymore. And I get overwhelmed really quickly with anxiety. I don't know, but you lost the tolerance for the crowds two years off. Yeah.
00:07:37
Speaker
Yeah. So I love people. I'm a social butterfly at heart, but that really comes in well with nursing because I feel like I could probably strike up a conversation with anybody. And then also like learning really good communication skills to have those hard conversations and just difficult things that arise. Yeah. But that makes sense. That's so funny because that you were just talking science, science, science, and then here we are.
00:08:04
Speaker
You're also super into the art side of your brain. So you're kind of hitting both things. I mean, they seem totally opposite. So I guess the next logical question is how did you end up becoming a photographer? What was nursing not providing for you to have you want to seek this other path or was there something missing or how did you even get to that side?
Photography Passion & Business Beginnings
00:08:27
Speaker
That's an interesting story.
00:08:29
Speaker
I didn't really take any art classes in high school. Like I am not an artistic person or so I thought. Here we go. It started probably back in it was like when I was in college, I was living not but a half mile from where I currently live.
00:08:47
Speaker
And I lived with my aunt during like the end of my college years. And there was this field that was across from the mailboxes when I would check the mail. And there were all these, they're weeds, they're very like, I call them like dandelion weeds, but they like come up with these huge puff balls. And the sunset would set on that side behind like this weeded field. And I had an iPhone 5.
00:09:13
Speaker
at the time and I would just run like I did start with the four so nice nice yeah let's take it way back but I had an iPhone 5 at the time and I would just like jump out whenever I would check the mail and go take a picture of these like weeds in this field with the beautiful sunset behind them
00:09:34
Speaker
And that kind of started this passion for photography. Like I was like, oh, these are really pretty. I was hiking a lot during my early twenties and so taking pictures of these beautiful landscapes. Fast forward a little bit to the end of nursing school. I met my current husband back then. We were starting to date. We went on a road trip to the Oregon coast.
00:09:57
Speaker
And I had this thought of getting a camera before I went. And so I went into Best Buy. I posted in a local group, Nikon or Canon, and came down to the conclusion that I should get Nikon. So I went and bought a little starter kit from Best Buy, the Nikon D3300, with two kit lenses, and off I went to Oregon.
00:10:20
Speaker
And yeah, so I while we're there, I asked everyone that had a professional camera to tell me what their settings were. You're like, I was like, Montana. Can I ask you about your camera? Yeah.
00:10:35
Speaker
That's like, I'm a new photographer and I don't know how to use it. I remember like I was like, I want the waterfalls to not show the motion that I want it to be this like glazed over water look from like exposure. Yeah. Yeah. I remember just like asking this guy, how did you do that? And oh, the pictures, they weren't perfect, but I had fun and I brought my tripod and I still have photos that like my husband took of me from that trip and
00:11:03
Speaker
Just like with you and your camera. I love how your personality that you said you're so good at nursing comes out in this very start of your entrepreneurship, but you didn't know that yet. So it's just how one of these skills is kind of crossing paths. That's so interesting.
00:11:18
Speaker
It just became like kind of a creative outlet. I don't think like I didn't jump into portrait stuff until probably like late 2014, like early 2015. And I think like I made my best friend and her baby pose for photos for me.
00:11:37
Speaker
Aw, that's cute. I still have them. I have those very first photos I took. I think it's important to say, because a lot of times I think starting a business, even though you hadn't started your business yet, you were learning a new skill.
00:11:57
Speaker
And you right away were asking people for help and advice. And sometimes that's really hard to do because it feels like if you admit you don't know everything, then suddenly you're not an expert and you've got all that imposter syndrome. And the opposite of that was what you seem to do, which was, hi, I see you doing what I want to know how to do. Please tell me how you're doing that. And I imagine that people were happy to do that.
00:12:21
Speaker
I mean, I think they gave me like as good advice as they could for my knowledge base of a camera, but also just being willing to ask for help is like huge. Very huge. Yeah. Yeah. And so what kind of other training when you got back and you were like, I kind of love these. I feel like this waterfall could be a little bit better, but how did you continue learning about it to the point where you thought, you know what? I'm going to try portraits now. I feel like I have this camera kind of figured out.
00:12:48
Speaker
I watched some YouTube videos. I think I downloaded this book on Kindle. It was like Nikon D3300 like photography guide or whatever. Sure. I think I downloaded that little book.
00:13:01
Speaker
and I like worked my way through it. I had this interest in like star photos and you know we can kind of sometimes see the northern lights on the horizon here and that really interested me as well. So I think I bought like a how to photograph like night sky book didn't really seek like professional I don't I say professional help but like actual person like mentoring until probably close to 2000
00:13:32
Speaker
So it was a couple of years, like I kind of just like shot on, there's like different modes on your camera. So you're like manual aperture mode, shutter mode, and I think one is called like program. And so I just shot in like aperture mode until I took this like in-person class. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. And then you learned everything that your camera could do.
00:13:55
Speaker
I didn't learn everything, but I did after that class, I pushed myself to learn how to shoot in manual mode. And manual mode is like, it's like the hidden key to like really honing in on your photography because you have complete control of that image and how it turns out in the end. And it was really, it was good to push myself because it's like a scary thing for a lot of photographers to think about like going into manual mode. Cause they're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know.
00:14:23
Speaker
Sure. What this means or why it affects it this way, but it's all about the triangle of light and learning your triangle of light and exposure. That relates to every entrepreneur. It's scary in the beginning. Yeah. Yes. 100%. Yes. And it is super manual.
00:14:42
Speaker
I'm just like, oh gosh. Yes. Well, so I'm curious when you, so you started taking the photography mostly for fun and just kind of honing your skills and learning how to do it. What was the feeling that you got when you were taking photos? Was there something about the process or
00:15:01
Speaker
kind of the lifestyle of being out shooting that made you kind of plant that seed of what? Like maybe I could turn this into something professional instead of just a hobby. So it really just started with like, I would do like all of my friends' photos. And then I would get some people at work, some people that saw my stuff on social media. I think I created
00:15:28
Speaker
a Facebook page pretty early on. Sure. Because I got married in 2016 and I had a page before that. And I even got like a little website on Wix going, which look at you. Yeah, man, I was like.
00:15:44
Speaker
don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to spend a hundred dollars for a website per year. Right. Right. But it kind of started with that initially, like, I think I was like scared to charge people because I knew that I was like a beginner and I was like, if you want to donate money and I'll do your photos, that's fine. And I think like most people like would just throw 50 or $75 at me. And then finally, like after a few months of doing that, I was like, okay, I feel comfortable. Like,
00:16:10
Speaker
putting a little bit of a price tag on things. And it was during like early, like the end of 2017, early 2018 that I was like, oh, like this could be a little extra money in my pocket outside of nursing, which would be nice. I'm paying off student loans and all that stuff. And I was like, this would be nice to have a little extra income. So I was like, I could do both.
00:16:35
Speaker
I only had three days a week, so I could just do both of these things. That's true. You did have the nursing schedule, probably, which gave you a lot more flexibility already, and possibly a hunger to keep that flexibility, I'm guessing, with the second job that was also flexible.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Make your own schedule. What did husband think about this when you were like, you know
Support & Financial Planning
00:16:56
Speaker
what? I've been shooting these photos just for funsies, but now I'm thinking second business. So my husband's always been really supportive. And I think like maybe he thought it might have been like a little bit of a fever dream at first when you're like, I'm going to have this other business and I'm going to make money.
00:17:16
Speaker
And he's an entrepreneur. He works for a training conductor, right? Yeah. Yeah. He's an engineer. So it's not like he's never had his own business and worked for himself. So I think like he was also very like exploring a person. He was like, well, how much is this going to cost us? And, and of course the sticker price of photography equipment.
00:17:37
Speaker
When you think about it, I'm like, no, no, no. I'm going to save up money. I'm going to do sessions. And for the most part, almost all of my gear I was able to buy outright after saving money. Nice. I never really had to take out any loans or anything to get gear because it's something that
00:17:53
Speaker
I just slowly accumulated and added through the years. I didn't ever want it to be like this like big debt thing just to line your gear. And maybe I still don't have the top notch gear, but you know what? The gear that I do have, I know how to work and it uses really well. And it takes the pressure off, right? When you're starting to not say, well, gosh, I have to make money right away and I have to make this much right away. And that just kind of taints everything else that you're doing with this mindset of,
00:18:19
Speaker
needing to make this amount of money. And instead you were like, you know what? I'm just going to get gears, I get it, and not have that hanging over my head. Which I think is very smart. Tell your husband it could be worse. You could be into horses, so. True. Yeah.
Business Unbound Course Promotion
00:18:36
Speaker
That's also expensive. Yeah. Give him a little perspective, and he's going to be like, no, this is the best. You're right.
00:18:43
Speaker
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00:19:03
Speaker
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00:19:32
Speaker
You've hinted that you started this, one of your whys. What you've identified so far is that it was a little extra money. But I want to go a little bit deeper and ask you again, is there something else? Because if it's just money driving you, that wouldn't have lasted you five years, right? So what else is there about it that kind of goes a layer deeper into your why of doing the side business and keep you've kept doing it for five years, which is amazing.
00:20:01
Speaker
Ultimately, the why behind it was it really was this good creative outlet outside of nursing.
Creative Balance: Photography & Nursing
00:20:09
Speaker
Nursing is very stressful. I think a lot of people know that, especially like in your beginning years, you can burn out really easily. It's really easy to say yes to extra shifts and making extra overtime. It's really easy to burn out in nursing.
00:20:24
Speaker
I say that in any type of nursing it's very very common and a lot of hospitals and organizations say try not to have nurses burn out because I don't know what like the statistic is but I think a lot of nurses burn out like in their first two years of nursing because it's like mentally, emotionally, physically exhausting depending on what type of nursing you're doing.
00:20:45
Speaker
So I think it just became like this really nice creative outlet that I could do on my days off. And it was like really exciting to be doing these photos and I would turn them around. People were like, I love them, but also like seeing myself grow in that. Then I was like, oh, I want to get better. I want to be like this photographer and really have these really nice photos that I'm turning around and delivering to people.
00:21:10
Speaker
And it just wanted me to do better for myself and in my business. But it became this really fun, creative outlet outside of nursing. While I was still working both, I saw the freedom that photography gave as far as entrepreneurship and those first two years
00:21:32
Speaker
I hate to use the word hustle, but I put so much time and energy into my business to try and just have things be seamless. And here I am today, like crazy. When I look back, like what has changed over five years, but those first few years, man, I struggled like every little bit and I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to figure it out how to do this. Those challenges, they like bring really good rewards at the end.
Operational Systems & Client Experience
00:21:59
Speaker
When you mentioned, and we've talked about this a little offline too, but when I was your photography client in May, I was just like, wow, she has her systems dialed. Like she's clearly invested a lot of time and energy and this process and everything. The reminders are coming to me and all the details I need, and she's answering all the questions before I ask them. And that sounds like something that you started setting up right at the beginning. And usually I think a lot of people
00:22:26
Speaker
get to the systems part a little bit later. So what was it that made you say, you know what? I'm going to put a process around this. So I started using Dubsado, which is my CRM.
00:22:41
Speaker
It's Mallory's Brush. My favorite too. We love Dubsado. Once you figure out how to set it up. The setup is probably. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think I paid for Dubsado in 2020. Like I signed up for like the year and or like fall of 2020 with like probably one of their Black Friday deals. It took me months. Like I didn't actually start like putting it into use until like March, April of 2021. Because I didn't figure out like figuring out how to like
00:23:11
Speaker
the packages, the workflows, all that stuff was a lot for me. But I did it. I had another photographer who I happened to meet a few years ago, she was like, Oh, I'll get on a zoom call with you and I can go through with you and show you the workflows. It was so helpful. We spent two hours she showed me like, you need to do your packages first and then set up your emails and then you can do proposals and
00:23:32
Speaker
She showed me all of that work. Wow. That was so nice of her. That's amazing. I know. Yeah. And so like I've offered that to other people after that, because I really thought it was so hard to set up just in general, but it pays for itself. It's worth it because it's like another employee.
00:23:51
Speaker
or an employee, but I will say I don't want to scare people off of it because there's some functionality that you can get to right away. It's just setting up the workflows and the automation piece is certainly a learned skill. They also have really good, and we're not, I mean, I'm endorsing them just because I love them. We don't have an endorsement affiliate officially with them or anything, but
00:24:14
Speaker
I think that their training is really good online and they do have a really helpful support team. And then you can also find people to, you can hire people to do it to set it up. So don't let it scare you away because once they're in place, like we said, it is so worth it. It's the secret sauce to efficiency and gaining more time.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yes, I will touch base on that a little bit because it is daunting, but I will still tell other photographers and entrepreneurs to use it because it's not just for photographers. It's not just for YouTube with Unbound Business. There's so many different small businesses that could use this.
00:24:51
Speaker
CRM and I would just say like the flexibility with it compared to other CRMs is like tenfold like how customized you can have it be which is really awesome and I just want to tell people like push through that hard part of setting it up and use it because the workflow part of it like you were saying for you over the years I've paid attention to what people are asking me at what points and they're like you know about two weeks before they're like what location are we meeting at and two days before they're like what do
00:25:20
Speaker
wait a minute, what time is my session again? And so I have thought about when I get those questions, what the questions are being thrown at me. And I was like, okay, like I'm going to set this workflow up to be preemptively like answering my client's questions. So then it's not that I like
00:25:39
Speaker
don't want people bugging me, but it's like most people have similar questions. And when you're working with over a hundred plus clients a year, like you only have so much bandwidth for answering emails and I'm already getting the inquiry emails and all that stuff. So you just have to be efficient with your time because you're, I'm a sole business owner and I work for myself and dubsado has made that so much easier because I can plan that stuff out.
00:26:05
Speaker
You know what I love about what you just said, though? I mean, I love everything about talking workflows and automations. Don't get me wrong. But what you just said is something you can't teach people. And I think if more people took a moment to do this, they would.
00:26:21
Speaker
get more positive feedback, more referrals, but you're anticipating your client's needs. It's not, I mean, yes, you're getting the benefit of efficiency and not having to spend as much time responding with the same things. But the anticipation of their needs, knowing what they're going to need before they know it is why you're doing so well and people will refer you and the system feels professional and it feels buttoned up and they just have a seamless user experience. So kudos to you because you can't teach that to everyone.
00:26:51
Speaker
No, and I think that part of what sets me apart from other photographers and why people would choose me is part of that experience. I have the experience and knowledge of knowing that these questions are going to come and I can preemptively
00:27:09
Speaker
react to that and also like, and they're like, Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that I needed to know this. And like, that was so helpful. So I'm really glad that I like have honed in it. And I don't want to say that that was all my idea. Like I've paid for mentors over the years from more experienced photographers who have like guided me in workflows and being like,
00:27:29
Speaker
try and do this stuff beforehand because it is super helpful. Your clients are really appreciative because before it even comes a thought, they're like, oh, this information is being presented to me. And I'm going to do something with it and say, thank you for presenting it now. Yeah. So it's part of what makes my client experience so seamless. And it just is also a really good, like open communication door. So yeah, I'm very grateful.
00:27:53
Speaker
I mentioned like the way you felt at the very beginning was like maybe I shouldn't charge people because I'm new and you have to do that kind of feeling of like everyone's going to know I'm new, even though no one knows you're new. But I think the systems piece and having that workflow set up and having the website and just having a professional face on the company
00:28:15
Speaker
is one of those investments upfront that both makes you feel more legit, right? Which makes you act more legit, but also it's the same for the people that are coming to you as clients,
Workflow Adjustments & Scalability
00:28:25
Speaker
right? They see that professionalism and the more that you look and feel that way, the less you're going to have those little voices being like, they're going to know you're new. Yeah. Everyone knows they can see it. They can't see it.
00:28:39
Speaker
Right? Like for me, it was having a brand and a website and the things. And I was like, if this looks professional to me, it will look professional to everyone else. And I don't have to go around being like, I've only done this for three months. Nobody cares. It's about the work. But the other thing that I really like when you're talking about this is that I think
00:28:56
Speaker
maybe with or without knowing it, you were investing in the longevity of your business and making sure that you had the time and the energy to keep this going with a second career and a marriage and three dogs and all the things and travel. And so to me, when I hear you say that, I hear like, you know what, I'm not going to subscribe to the idea that I need to be doing everything myself, manually, painfully. There's no award for that.
00:29:26
Speaker
So people might clap you or pat you on the back and they're like, I can't believe you're running your business by yourself. But I do hire things out because it's a lot all at once. I hire out someone to manage my Pinterest and I've hired out blogging over the years, even though I love blogging and the whole aspect of SEO. But I've hired those things out over the years because
00:29:50
Speaker
It's exhausting, and trying to do it all by yourself sometimes can cause you to mentally break down. Hence, the taking care of yourself and taking care of your business is sometimes letting go of a little bit of control. Control, yes. And for the listeners out there who are going, oh, that sounds amazing, but maybe they're already five years in,
00:30:12
Speaker
And I know you set it up in the beginning, which is brilliant and probably saved you a lot of time. Well, two years in. Oh, see you're two years in. Yeah, because you have to. That's what I was going to say is you can't necessarily know what you're going to need right from the get go. So you might have to fudge your way through a little bit until you figure it out. And then you kind of know after a few years in.
00:30:34
Speaker
what you need to set up or what the workflow should even be. And if you haven't done that yet and you're thinking this sounds really good, you can do it at any point. I mean, I'm working with client right now who's been in business for seven years. Like you can do it and gain that efficiency whenever it makes sense for you. So don't shy away even if you're not doing it in the very beginning.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's something you can pick up at any time. Prior to DevSato, I used acuity scheduling, which allowed me to do contracts, questionnaires, and just calendar planning. But the thing it didn't have that I wanted was workflows. And realistically, having those workflows were so efficient rather than just throwing together a half.
00:31:18
Speaker
communicated jumbles, experience of here's a little bit of outfit help. Here's a little bit of location help. Instead, I've taken the time to like build the guides, send them out, answer questions to be really helpful for my client.
00:31:32
Speaker
It's return on time invested. So you're investing time in the beginning, but you're getting more time in the future. You're gaining that return on that time that you invest now. It's very smart. Well, and it's related to, I think, what you started going into there, which is,
Outsourcing & SEO Strategies
00:31:50
Speaker
that mental weighing of when to hire support and for what. And a lot of people struggle with that. I have in some ways too, and there are things I wish that I'd hired out earlier.
00:32:03
Speaker
And you, it sounds like, even though there were some of the things like blogging that you could do yourself, of course you can do it, but what was it that kind of made you think, you know what, I probably either shouldn't be doing this or I don't need to be doing it, or there's something else I want to do more. So what is your normal thought process when you're like, you know what, maybe it's time to stop doing Pinterest.
00:32:29
Speaker
So I never really did Pinterest for my business. And I took this course and I was like, oh, this is really beneficial. And I could see other photographers and like, it goes by like monthly impressions and views. And you'd be like, wow, they're getting like,
00:32:45
Speaker
800,000 monthly views, a million monthly views. And I'm like, that's just another outlet and avenue to potentially bring in clients. And I wasn't currently doing it at the time. And I called my best friends. And I was like, hey, do you have interest in running my Pinterest for me? And I was like, you'd probably like to start your own business. I could get you more clients. So she started her own business. Nice.
00:33:12
Speaker
two years now that she's been running my Pinterest. Oh, wow. Yeah. She started her own virtual assisting business, has been doing it. And I think she really enjoys it. She doesn't do it full time. She only ever did it like part time, but she was like at one point she was working with like five or six clients that I had brought in for her.
00:33:29
Speaker
Oh, asking groups are like, I need a virtual assistant. You're like, Oh, check out my friend. Like I have a website. And yeah. So I was like, you're going to be an entrepreneur front. Yeah. This is like it's Nicole. This is what Nicole does with her friends. Yeah. She turns them into entrepreneurs. And then I hire them. Oh my God. This is so Nicole. I'm like, I can teach you. We're big proponents. Is that the right word?
00:33:58
Speaker
Yes. We're big advocates for hiring people, you know, and I know some people are not, but honestly, just knowing you have that connection and if you can do it with honesty and integrity and know that your intentions are pure, that if anything comes up, you'll just resolve it respectfully. I think it has been, it's been really successful for me. I only work with people I know. That's just kind of the only way I feel comfortable doing it.
00:34:28
Speaker
But the thing about the Pinterest piece too, and I know you, you have a lot of experience at this point with SEO. So search engine optimization doesn't live in that world, but like that's also what Pinterest is, which makes it different from a lot of other social platforms. So things like
00:34:44
Speaker
Instagram, yes, you can pay for views and whatnot, but Pinterest is an actual search engine similar in function to Google, which a lot of people don't know. So that's why for a lot of people, especially someone in a visual business like photography, that is an investment worth making because you can not only be sharing your work product, but you're actually getting more eyeballs on your business in a dependable and organic way that you don't have to pay for.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah, which is really cool. But it sounds like probably SEO was not a big part of your nursing program. I would imagine not really covered in the dark basement room in which you learned healthcare. And so for things like that, you had to start from scratch on getting clients and doing all of that. And it sounds like you've also
00:35:35
Speaker
not just invested in the physical tools like the camera and the gear and all the things and not just the workflows, but how to make the internet help bring you business, right? So how did you go down that path and say, you know what, how am I going to create this funnel of interest and clients?
00:35:52
Speaker
I think for me, I was like, how do I get these clients to come to me without depending on other people to send me referrals? And while a huge part of my business is word of mouth referral, it's not all of it.
00:36:08
Speaker
Back in 2020, I had paid for like a mentor with a photographer out of Oregon. And she had started talking about SEO and marketing. And I was like, oh, well, how can I do better for my business? And she went through and looked at my website and she said, what's your main goal? And like back then I was very heavily, heavily focused on family photography and taking like pictures in Glacier National Park.
00:36:35
Speaker
And she was like, well, I don't want to say like missed marketing, but like there wasn't a lot of people like honing in on Google about Galicia National Park family photographers. And so she gave me like the input of what I needed to put on my website to be helpful for clients that are traveling. She was like, I want you to write blogs about these specific things. I was going to say, I bet your blog is because you wanted the SEO.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah. A lot of my blogs draw a lot of traffic to my website. And then she talked to me about a course for photographers to really like ramp up your SEO and how to be better about it. And so like I invested in this course and went through every single module. I took a blogging course, which like taught me like the in-depth like ins and outs of like how to write a really thorough blog and like,
00:37:27
Speaker
the importance of H1, H2 headers and how to like search for keywords, find out what keywords you need to be ranked. Oh girl, we can nerd out about this. Oh my gosh. I could go on and on about SEO because I absolutely love SEO. So I just started like geeking out hardcore about SEO.
00:37:46
Speaker
pretty heavily in 2020, 2021, making sure that my Google My Business listing was on point and all those things. I just never realized the importance of backlinks and being listed on other directories and getting those backlinks and how important they were. So yeah, I spent probably the better part of my last three plus years in business, really honing in on those things to make sure that
00:38:12
Speaker
I'm covering all my bases, and Pinterest was one of them, which was why I wanted to get on Pinterest. And I legit don't manage any of my Pinterest. My friend does everything. That's great. So people ask me, like, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, she literally does it all. And I go on and look at it. I have no idea.
00:38:30
Speaker
I'm like, I have no idea. She does it all. And I just pay her to do it for me. And she actually really likes it. So I trust her. And she's brought me from one point eight thousand monthly views to I'm up to almost almost three hundred thousand monthly views on Pinterest, which is huge. And it brings an inquiry, which I was like, well, it's cool. It's like another outlet that like I pay her a minimum, a certain minimal amount a month that like I pay her. And it's honestly like I'd rather pay her than pay Google ads.
00:39:00
Speaker
But the best part of SEO is that I don't really have to spend a ton of money on advertising because my blogs are doing it for me. I learned early on in my SEO search that like the average social media post only gets attraction and like searchability for about 48 hours. And a Google, like a blog, like Google, most of your content could be found for like 700 plus for like years and years and years. The searchability is so good.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah. So I was like, I'm going to put my effort into that. You're like, this makes more sense. Yeah. I mean, I just don't even care about social media. Like I, Pinterest or not Pinterest, Instagram hardly brings me any inquiries. And now in Mallory, people do, if people do inquire, I send it to my website, but I just like, I just, I don't know. You know, all our listeners are like, okay, be right back. I need to go write some blogs right now. I need to go to leave my Instagram. I'm like, I'm going to be a black hole.
00:40:01
Speaker
Keep your Instagram if it's working for you. Remember, you are the one who gets to make the choice of what's working for you. Yes. And I always tell people like when I have newer photographers reach out to me for any sort of like mentoring, I tell them like, if something's working for you, then do what works for you. And that's okay. Because like if your website is not working for you right now, and it's not bringing in SEO and intro,
00:40:24
Speaker
Instagram is bringing in inquiries. That's great. Keep putting your time there. But like for me, it never was the inquiry driver. Mine was my website. And so for me, I can put whatever I want on my website. And I know that Google will pick it up. And if I put the right things in there, it's going to push it out to all of the hundreds of thousands of people versus Instagram. It might be coming to Glacier for vacation.
00:40:49
Speaker
Absolutely. Yes. That is where I heavily invested my time and efforts is into those types of things. Okay. I have a new thread I want to just point out that I've noticed you saying throughout this whole thing. It's that you continue to learn new skills or you have been. Even back when you said you were burning out from nursing, one of the ways to combat
00:41:16
Speaker
burnout is by learning a new skill. And it's partly why Nicole and I started this business is we wanted something new to work on that energized us and kind of kept the burnout at bay per se. So I didn't know if you even noticed that you have been doing that, but it is one tactic for people for almost like a self-care practice. Honestly, you're starting to feel that lull and that low.
00:41:42
Speaker
pick up a new skill that could be beneficial for your business. Yep. This is true. Okay. But then let's switch gears because I want to talk more about, so you hired your bestie.
00:41:54
Speaker
She's part of your support network, which we love, but tell us more about what support network you have in place because you are managing two different careers that take two different pieces of your mind and your brain. And I'm assuming that you have to have some people in place to help you when things get a little dicey. Yeah. And I will say like for perspective for like listeners that I have officially as of November 1st, I will have been full-time
00:42:23
Speaker
for two full years in photography. So that's like 95% of my income is photography. And so nursing is, I'm very pure end right now, which is called per diem, meaning I only pick up like so many shifts and that's like different for all types of hospitals.
00:42:42
Speaker
For me, I typically work the majority of my shifts during my slow season of photography, which is often like November through March. I will pick up extra shifts during those months just to keep myself busy in the winter because when it's 32 degrees or lower and blizzarding, people don't want autos. So much lower. So much lower. Yes, it's much lower, but like today, maybe 32. Yeah.
00:43:07
Speaker
So for that perspective, that's where my time breakdown is for the last two years. And I forgot what question.
00:43:19
Speaker
When I think about the fact that your side hustle became your main hustle and your main hustle became your side hustle, that seems like it's been a gradual process. That 95% has probably just eked up from 5% to 20% to 40%. It's just taken over more and more.
00:43:41
Speaker
because you have built a business that works for your lifestyle, which I think is huge. And so I'm curious what types of boundaries do you have in place to make sure that you can keep doing this,
Boundaries & Sustainable Practices
00:43:56
Speaker
right? If it's something that you love, what kinds of boundaries do you put in place with like your schedule or your family time or how many clients you take on, right? I think it's, especially for photographers, I think a lot of people get burned out just
00:44:10
Speaker
doing way too much. You can't do six sessions a day. You can't do it. Yeah. So how do you kind of man, and you could, you could. So over the years, my progression, so 2021, November of 2021 was when I like declared like full-time photography before that it was like almost like a 50 50, especially like from like 2020 on, because I had been dropped down to like so many hours. And then I was picking up with
00:44:37
Speaker
photography. So yeah, it's that slow progression. As I went into my business full time, like I had already been doing photography. So I felt like I was kind of working photography full time, probably all of almost all of 2021, like doing it pretty much full time. Other than that was when I like shifted to full time allotments.
00:44:58
Speaker
And like going forward with bookings, like I've done it now two years in a row where I've like been pretty consistent about I wanted elopements to be my full time priority. And something like I had to tell my clients this too, but I didn't want to overbook myself and
00:45:16
Speaker
I know a lot of vendors in the photography field and you see stuff on social media about the burnout of taking in so many things or triple header weekends and you see it, you see the burnout, you see the stories people are posting and just like the backlog of editing and like people are so exhausted and I was just like I don't want to be there and that just isn't like my end goal and
00:45:38
Speaker
as much as I want to hustle as hard as I can. Like I've already like, I hustled a lot in nursing and, you know, got my certifications and I burnt out. And then for photography, like I hustled to get my business going, but I've gotten to this point where I'm like, okay, I'm like happy, I'm content here. And then I set boundaries. And a lot of that came with like,
00:46:02
Speaker
learning that you didn't have to answer emails within two hours of receiving them. If people email you at 7pm, it's okay to email them the next day during your business hours that it's okay to not answer emails on weekends. And if you're not in the Headspace to answer emails, don't answer emails. It's okay. Unless it's a pressing matter, it can wait a day or two. And I think
00:46:26
Speaker
The communication is a little bit different for everybody in their business. Some people allow their clients to text them. Sometimes they don't. For me, like I have never been like in a texting realm with clients until about, I don't know, like usually like three days before a session, I'll give them a number if they need a text or call me, or for like a lot of answers, usually that like two week mark that I'll like have them. I think they always have my phone number from like the initial start, but I usually don't open that communication door through texting until about two weeks before.
00:46:54
Speaker
because with texting people expect an immediate response. And there's not like an easy way to set the boundary of like, I've read this and I'm gonna come back to it later because I am the type of person that like, if you don't hear from me right away, you might hear from me at bedtime at 10 p.m. or the next day or four days from now. And then I'm like, I'm so sorry, I didn't get back to you. So just like designating which outlets I want to receive communication from
00:47:21
Speaker
not taking on every booking that comes my way, saying no. And if I don't feel like it's a good fit, then I don't book it. Part of that has to do with like reading out through inquiry forums. You can tell when people are simply just price shopping when they inquire based on like the communications.
00:47:39
Speaker
and they're looking for a deal or you can tell if people are just like rushed and they're just like oh we just need to get this done but I try and go for people that are like invested and that really want to work with me and I can usually tell instantly when they inquire they're like I've been following you for a year like I have prioritized this I want to work with you I will work with whatever days you give me I know that those like are my ideal clients and those are the people that I ideally want to work with in the end
00:48:06
Speaker
are the people that are like, I've seen your work, it speaks to me, you're the one. I know I want to work with you. So I have set boundaries like over the years to make sure that I take time off. And I don't book myself every day because you will burn out like as much as people think that they won't, you will burn out. And it's important to make sure that you have days off. Enjoy time with your family, enjoy time with your friends.
00:48:31
Speaker
Enjoy time where you're not at your computer, you're not answering emails, you're not editing, you're not writing blog posts. You just take a day off and read a book. Read a book. Go outside. It's okay for those things and I've learned in my business.
00:48:48
Speaker
As much as I like, you deserve that time off. You shouldn't have to come on social media and be like, I'm so sorry. Like, right. I just did the day off. Like, yeah, like it's okay. You're human. It's okay. A day off from life, you know? And so I've learned that my business, it's okay to just do that. And I think like through my communication with all my clients and my couples that I work with.
00:49:10
Speaker
I don't really get people that are, like, pushy or harassing for photos by a certain date. And I think that's because I've set expectations, like, early on. And since we're done photographing, like, for their session or their moment day, I tell them, like, okay, well, this is when you can expect your full gallery. This is when you get to see peaks.
00:49:30
Speaker
I think having those boundaries, expectations in place, they are preemptively knowing when they're going to get it. And that has been so helpful. Communication with your clients is number one. Number one, make sure that you are having boundaries.
00:49:47
Speaker
Yeah. Setting the expectation first. So they know and then you can enforce the boundary if needed, but then they're not even pushing against it because they know what it is. So it's a smart strategy. Yeah. And I think for the most part like day of, I get to have some really cool conversations with my couples like on their low end days and
00:50:06
Speaker
they're like, Oh, no, we see your passion. We know that you love this. And even throughout booking, like I tell them you're my only elopement this week. Like my time is dedicated to you. Nice. I often don't book anything for myself the day after elopements as a rest day. Nice. And a lot of times it's so I can get like a sneak peek out or their gallery cold or something. And it just depends. Like sometimes if it's falls on the weekend, I don't edit for the weekend. Like it just depends. But
00:50:34
Speaker
It's setting those healthy boundaries because you deserve to not be like on the grind 24 seven and for mental health wise, you need to do those things.
Community & Continuous Learning
00:50:43
Speaker
Yes. Well, and it's so often that, you know, and a little bit of this may be gendered, but so often that people want the busy award and they want to say how busy they are. And, you know, my schedule is packed and I can't possibly do everything, but I'm going to stay up till 2 AM trying and just, it's a bit of an identity.
00:51:03
Speaker
I think, and one that I would say Mallory and I both don't subscribe to anymore, but used to, right? I mean, I used to, and I think you did too. It's really nice to hear that even five years in, you have already come to the place that took us longer of being like, you know what? This is not about being the busiest photographer on the planet.
00:51:26
Speaker
That is not the goal. The goal is to have this business that works for my life financially and also just something I'm passionate about. And I want to work with these people and learn new things. I think there's seasons, right? So like you said, starting your company. And when I was starting my company, you can hear in my episode, episode two, I had my full time job. And then I was working from like 8 PM to 11 PM every night and a lot of weekends. So.
00:51:52
Speaker
If you know it's a short season, I think the grind and that hustle, if we're throwing that lingo out, is where it needs to come in and then it can be done. It has to be done because we're trying to build businesses that you can keep running for a long time.
00:52:08
Speaker
You can't reach the five year mark and still, well, maybe you can, but you might not be enjoying it very much and have this for even your whole career. You really do have to prioritize. And I think a lot of those boundaries you set are really good reminders for all of us.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I agree. When I think about the way that you've set up your business and just hearing you talk about it, it seems like you've done a lot proactively to make sure that this business works in your life, but there are still all the ups and downs, right? Like every business has
00:52:40
Speaker
the issues and the roadblocks and the dumpster fires and all the things. And I'm just curious, like when those times come up for you, going back to the why of you starting this business, how does that help you keep going through those times or keep them in perspective?
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think like when I hit like hard balls like that, I often rely on, I have a few like close, I don't want to call them like co-workers, but there are other photographer friends that I've built in the industry and fall back on support from them. And I'm like, what would you do in this situation? Like those close friends have become
00:53:18
Speaker
really great like we're able to rebound questions off of each other to help navigate part of like this business because I feel like if I haven't seen it they probably have or they have a better response than I might have because we get really hard questions sometimes or how do I word something like this to a client or
00:53:38
Speaker
how are your bookies looking for the next season? It's so different for everybody, but relying on the people around you in that support system and even just hearing that somebody's made a mistake and knowing that you're not the only one that's going to make a mistake and something that I learned in nursing is that humans make mistakes.
00:53:58
Speaker
And it's not above anybody to make a mistake. And that follows through in business too. And I remind people like, even though that I am a business worker and I'm here to provide a service that I am human and I also make mistakes. And at the end of the day, you can't burn yourself to the ground just because you did one thing wrong. I told a client the wrong location.
00:54:22
Speaker
Yes. And it was okay. Like it was okay. The world did not end, but it's just like remembering the end of the day when there's like hard things that it's okay. There's another day. We're going to learn from this. How can I learn better from it? What can I achieve out of this and grow from it? And that is probably like what keeps me going in my business is that like, this is just a hump. We'll get through it. Like we have our lows.
00:54:48
Speaker
This is reminding me whenever knock on wood, hopefully I'm not making very many mistakes, but when I do, I own them and say, and so Nicole, I'll be like, Oh, I just miss this. Like my bad. I'm so sorry. And you know what she always says to me, Jen? You're the worst. That's not it or else we wouldn't be here today.
00:55:12
Speaker
That's right. I was having a moment. Nicole had it make it all funny. Yes. No, that's how she is. No, she literally writes. Oh, thank you for reminding me that you're human. She writes that almost every time. Oh, you're human. Congratulations. Yeah. I mean, she honestly doesn't make enough mistakes to the point where she makes it. And I'm like, Oh, thank goodness. Like if you'd known that.
00:55:34
Speaker
Right. At least it's not just me over here, like forgetting things. Yeah. I made once a day. So I have had my monthly quota. Right. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not perfect in my business. And I, I know that. And I think like,
00:55:50
Speaker
It's it's it's OK like as much as people think I'm put together and what they see the highlights on social media like it is interesting and humbling at the fact that like newer photographers and stuff sometimes like like oh my gosh you've got it so together and I'm like oh it's been a road like yeah I didn't always have it together and a lot of what this is what you see but it doesn't mean I'm perfect like sometimes it takes me five days to get back to an email and that's just life.
00:56:19
Speaker
And I own it. And I no longer, I no longer come at every email after a day or two and be like, I'm so sorry for my delayed response because we shouldn't have to be apologizing. And I just say thanks for your patience. Like that's what I say now too. Yeah. Like I've learned that you don't have to be apologizing for everything. That's correct. Because you're human. Just thank them for the patience and move on. And if it was really that big of an inconvenience to them, then they're probably not the right person for you. And that's okay. Yeah.
00:56:45
Speaker
I was going to say, I think because of the work you're doing, finding the right people. If you're partnering with the right people, they should know and be able to accept those times when you make a mistake. If you're also owning it in a respectful way, which you would. Yeah, definitely.
00:57:03
Speaker
Well, I know we're coming up on the end of this particular conversation, but I do want to close with more of a fun question. Since you just hit your five-year milestone, which is amazing, what is one piece of advice that you wish you'd gotten at the beginning? And it could be something big or something little, but it might very well be something that you tell other photographers when they come to you.
00:57:30
Speaker
I think I tell people, especially starting photographers, don't be afraid to ask for help, but that help might not always be free. It's really important to invest in your business. I know when you're starting, the cashflow might not be there, but know that what you're doing is you're investing for the future.
00:57:48
Speaker
And I wish that earlier on, like I wish I wouldn't have waited as long as I did to start paying for mentors with photographers. And you can't always expect people to like just give you information for free. When I think about the thousands and thousands of dollars I spent on education and courses and right mentorships just to learn a little bit more and be able to like have that free door to ask questions and be like, how do you do this so seamlessly? Just know that like reaching out on social media isn't always like the great greatest way to like get
00:58:18
Speaker
help or free help or expect free help that way. But don't be afraid to invest in your business. It's not going to be free. And take photos every day, whether it's your coffee cup, whether you're taking a picture of your house, the tree outside, your dog, your kid, weed photos every day.
00:58:36
Speaker
Just learn how to use your camera and take photos every day. Glamorize those little things and that will help you the most is using your camera and taking photos even if you don't have paying clients because we didn't all have paying clients at the beginning. It takes time. I'm really glad that whatever Nicole said to you in our inquiry that we made the cut so we got to meet you. I do.
00:59:01
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to think back on that. I had limited dates that week because it was my husband's 40th birthday. That's right. And we were having a surprise birthday party. But I was just drawn to you. I like your story. I loved what you two were doing in your business. And I think that helps too, being drawn to the work that you're going to be photographing or hire out.
00:59:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think that helps as well. Like I, I loved your story, your purpose, like what you were stood for. And I was like, I want to be a part of this. And I, part of me, you didn't know this, but I was like a little bit intimidated at first, like two powerful business women, like you're on a work time. And I was like, all right, let's
Client Connections & Communication
00:59:45
Speaker
just go with this. But like, no, we're not doing an elopement session. I know. But I write a little bit and it was just, um,
00:59:54
Speaker
Yeah, your, your energy together was really good. And I felt like our conversations were really fun and we just laughed and YouTube kind of just went with it. And I loved like, it was just really fun. And I don't get all clients that do this. I have had other people do it, but I loved like your PDF that you sent with these are some of the things we're looking for in our session. Oh God, I say that I did that.
01:00:18
Speaker
But I'm also a type A, doesn't it? I'm also a type A. And I, like, I loved it. You were like, we're looking for like these types of horizontals or vertical shots. And these are some of the things we want to be doing. These are like priority shots. And I don't always work off a shot list, but it was specific enough and I enjoyed it. It was really fun. I've had
01:00:37
Speaker
A lot of my couples send me PDFs of like, these are some locations we want. These are some poses we want. And I always try and try and be as accommodating as possible. And I don't even know if I hit all the photos on your list, but I tried. Doesn't matter. Yeah. Doesn't matter either. Yeah. We've never thought about it. Mallory's like, I had no idea.
01:00:56
Speaker
Have you seen the PDF? I think you need to look at it. Yes, because I made the original list in an email, and then Nicole took it and made it into a fancy deliverable, as she does, which is one of my favorite things about you. Thank you. Oh, gosh. You're welcome. It was great. But this may not be the last of Jen in our lives with Business Unbound if we do an in-person retreat.
01:01:18
Speaker
Hint, hint. We may try to magically get her there. So stay tuned for that in potentially 2025. Hang on tight. That's a ways away. I have to wait a year. Yes. We've been busy. But anyway, Jen, it has been such a pleasure to see you again. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing all those nuggets of wisdom with everybody. And for all of our listeners, thanks for tuning in. We cannot wait to see you guys next time.
01:01:47
Speaker
Thanks for listening. Hop over to UnboundBoss.com to join our community and leave us a voice memo. We absolutely love hearing from you. If you like the podcast, please subscribe, leave us an Apple review, and share your favorite episodes with other women entrepreneurs. Talk to you soon.