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"Stop welcoming me to my own country" - Senator Alex Antic
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Senator Alex Antic is a Liberal Senator representing South Australia in the Australian Federal Parliament. In this wide-ranging conversation with host Will Kingston, Alex discusses the Voice referendum, the future of the Liberal Party, the challenges facing the west and the rise of China.
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Transcript
Introduction to Spectator Australia and Australiana series
00:00:00
Speaker
The Spectator Australia is a weekly delight for anyone who loves insightful analysis, contentious opinion and hard-hitting comment.
00:00:08
Speaker
with the finest writing on current affairs, politics, the arts, books and life. You will read regular columnists who delight, provoke and amuse, and editorial features of incredible breadth and depth. There is no party line to which its writers abound. Originality of thought and elegance of expression are the sole editorial constraints. A digital subscription is just $16.99 a month and you get your first month free. Sign up today at spectator.com.au forward slash join.
Discussion with Senator Alex Antic begins
00:00:52
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Australiana from The Spectator Australia, a series of conversations on Australian politics and life. I'm Will Kingston. In the past, politicians would write long, boring tomes to promote their philosophy if they were on the way up, or to define their legacy if they were on the way down.
00:01:10
Speaker
Of course, some politicians still do this. When Ron DeSantis recently launched his new book, he may as well have put up a big sign in flashing neon lights saying what a great president I would be.
00:01:22
Speaker
From what I can tell, my guest today likes to do things a little differently. If you go on to South Australian Senator Alex Antic's Instagram account, you'll get a de facto manifesto delivered in bite-sized snippets from the man himself. In the sea of bland mediocrity, that is Australian politics, these clips are a blast of fresh air. Alex says the things we are all thinking but perhaps too afraid to say.
00:01:45
Speaker
His recent cry of stop welcoming me to my own country in one such viral clip was met with sighs of relief from sensible people everywhere, accompanied by a quiet nod that indicated that this guy gets it. Alex, welcome to Australiana. Thanks, Will. Thank you very much for that nice intro. Let's start with that welcome to country ritual.
The symbolism of 'welcome to country' acknowledgments
00:02:06
Speaker
Some people would just say it's a nice gesture. What's the harm? What's your response to that?
00:02:10
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think it probably started out that way. I mean, we hear these stories and I don't really seem to be able to pinpoint exactly where it started, but it seems to go back to a few decades back when some activists and I'm told that even the likes of Ernie Dingo, I'm told we're looking for
00:02:28
Speaker
You know, something nice to do and, you know, something nice to say before a sporting event. Now, that's, you know, so be it. I think the thing that's really sticking in people's throat, though, is the amount of times we hear this and the manner in which I think it's been deflated by just the constant repetition. It sort of gets to a point where you do have to say, well, look, you know,
00:02:50
Speaker
at least half of the side of my family has been here for five, six generations. Probably the same with you, the other half only one. But in any event, we all call Australia home. And why are we being welcomed to our own country anymore? And why are we hearing it seven times a day? I mean, to give you an example, this goes back almost a decade. This goes to show how long this has been going on. I sat on the Adelaide City Council where we would often do a series of standing committees and we'd do all four in one night. We'd hear it something like four times
00:03:18
Speaker
in two hours this welcome to country. And it really dawned on me then that this was just being used and abused by inner city white people in order to make themselves feel less guilty. So I just think in one sense, there's got to be an end to this. There's got to be a way in which we sort of roll the clock back and say, listen, we're all Australians and
00:03:39
Speaker
We've got to give this up. It sort of comes back to the issue about when have we actually reconciled? How often are we going to have to keep going through things like this, not just this? It's just a little emblematic issue. It doesn't really affect much. But I think it's the point. The point is that, in my mind, it demeans people who've been here for generations. And that's the point. That was the whole point of the statement. I don't want to be welcome to my own country anymore.
00:04:02
Speaker
You mentioned there that this is a little emblematic thing. And I think that's a really important observation because I think that's something that people are really frustrated by is that this is a symbolic gesture in a long line of symbolic gestures in Indigenous affairs. I think a lot of people would say that the Kevin Rudd's apology made people feel warm and fuzzy. It didn't actually improve the quality of life of Indigenous people.
Symbolic gestures versus substantive changes in politics
00:04:25
Speaker
Why are so many politicians quick to default to symbolic gestures over substantive changes in this area?
00:04:31
Speaker
I think the answer to that is because politicians don't like being yelled at by Twitter and by the ABC. If you take a step backwards and you actually look at what's happened, Aussies are pretty pragmatic, pretty sensible, pretty common sense people, but it almost feels like over the last 20 or 30 years, a dark cloud of control has drawn on top of people to the point where people are frightened to say what they think for fear of being called one of these isms.
00:04:57
Speaker
say I don't want that welcome to country ceremony for fear of being called a racist. They might say, you know, I believe women's sport is for women, but they don't want to be a transphobic, you know, whatever it might be. And I think people are just naturally, because they don't want to live their life in conflict, just worried about getting yelled at. And I think in many times, many cases, worrying unnecessarily, because I think most people, most Aussies are pretty pragmatic, very open minded. There's this nonsense that the left in this country and many of the institutions will tell us.
00:05:27
Speaker
that we're a systemically racist country is just absolute crap. We are not a systemically racist country. That's just a construct of the hardcore left. I mean, these people are the radicals, right? Aussies mainly just want to go about their day-to-day life.
00:05:43
Speaker
I think that's where it comes from. People just simply don't want to be taken to task for just speaking their mind. And that doesn't mean you have a license to say all sorts of terrible things. But Aussies, I think, generally just are acting in best interests of all their fellow Aussies most of the time. This is a control mechanism that is being used very effectively. And I don't think politicians want to take it on any more than the person who's going to a dinner party or the pub.
00:06:11
Speaker
or anything else want to take these on. And in the meantime, as you quite rightly say, all the big issues, the genuine issues, the voice, by the way, is the great example of this. I mean, this is just, you know, sort of symbolism really over any form of practical help for struggling Indigenous communities. And, you know, that is a real shame. The left do this well, gesture politics is what it is. You mentioned the voice.
Debate on Indigenous 'voice' in parliament
00:06:36
Speaker
Why should people vote no?
00:06:38
Speaker
Because, I mean, there's a lot of detail that's to come. That's the first thing. But the basic line is the same reason they should have voted no anytime. I mean, I've been talking about this for 18 months because it will divide Australians unnecessarily. What we're being proposed is something ultimately that could put a line down the middle of Australian society. We have two different classes. I mean, I go to Australian Parliament and sit in that Senate chamber because it says Australian at the bottom of my passport. So does Jacinda Price.
00:07:08
Speaker
You know, so does, you know, Lydia Thorpe. I mean, we all go there because we're Australians. And so we can get into the detail about, you know, the excess spending, the excess costs, I guess the sort of the problems with actually getting the referendum up and fairly and all those sorts of things. But the basic bottom line is it's not racist to vote. No, it never will be. And we don't want to divide Australians in this manner.
00:07:34
Speaker
I would suggest, Alex, that a lot of the Liberal Party base, if not most of the Liberal Party base, reached that principal position that you've just articulated in about 15 seconds. You were one of those people. Why did it take so long for your fellow Liberal Party members, party members, I should say, to get their act together?
00:07:54
Speaker
I don't think it's unreasonable. I did. I made the point a long time ago publicly that I had no intention of supporting this regardless. Then that was exactly for that reason because it's divisive. I couldn't personally see any detail that could be given to me which would change my mind on that. I just don't see how that was the case. Having said that, I think it's perfectly reasonable for
00:08:16
Speaker
the party itself, for the opposition leader, Peter Dutton, to do that. I think it's probably sensible politics to hear more detail of what's being proposed before you come to a position.
00:08:30
Speaker
So I don't take any issue with that at all. And I'm very glad that that position has been reached because this is a really important turning point in Australian history, I think. I mean, I think you might have seen what has happened in Queensland over the last few days with this treaty proposal being rolled out. If you want to see the future of this country, should this referendum get up, that's what it starts to look like. Treaty proposals and ultimately even
00:08:57
Speaker
the further dividing of this country through the creation of sovereign nations in some form. Now, what that looks like, I can't tell you, but ultimately, I don't think anyone wants to see any more division in this country. And the best way to ensure that is to vote no.
00:09:13
Speaker
to the voice. Well, if I imagine if someone was on the yes side that they would say, well, that's not the case. This is just a modest change to give Indigenous people a say in the issues that matter to them. How do you respond to that line of thinking?
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah, we hear that. It's funny that word comes up a lot at the moment in the Senate chamber. The Labor front bench are using it all the time for every change they want to make, which is far from modest. It's always characterised as modest. This is about as far from modest as anything ever could possibly be. This ultimately has all the prospects of changing the fabric of the Australian nation in ways we can't even imagine yet. So I don't see any of this as being modest. And by the way, we see this all the time. This is what
00:09:55
Speaker
Let's call it progressive politics. I really don't like that word, but let's call it that for the time being. It's like slicing the salami. Every time we are given a modest proposal, it's a modest slice of the salami, we find that there's another one coming after that and another one coming after that and another one coming after that. It doesn't matter. You pick your issue.
00:10:13
Speaker
And that applies. Let's take the issue of same-sex marriage.
Progressive politics and continuous agendas
00:10:17
Speaker
You know, we're now seven or eight years down the line from that, I think. And we're now debating the issues of gender bathrooms and women playing women's sport and you name it. Those issues continue to be pressed when we were told that, you know, really all that people wanted, the rainbow activists, all they wanted was this one issue. So you see a link between those two things?
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think that activism has progressed now. And I think that the one thing the progressive side of politics do is continue to take ground and continue to move the dial. That's my frustration with conservative politics in these countries.
00:10:59
Speaker
We are, I believe, too often waving the white flag when we need to be holding the line, if not pushing back in the opposite direction. There's nothing that anyone should feel embarrassed about, about, you know, believing in their country, believing in the models that have worked. I mean, you know, we said the other day, you don't have to be a person that loves everything about King Charles to be somebody that respects the constitutional monarchy in this country. And I think it's never been more important to support that model because
00:11:26
Speaker
Let's have a look at what a republic would look like in 2023. It would look pretty bad. So, yeah, I think I think it's about holding the line. I think conservative politics in 2023 has got a muscle up because people out there are with us. They are ready for a bit of pushback and holding the line at a very minimum. We'll get to the conservative side of politics in Australia in a second. Before we do, you mentioned that it's you're not a racist if you vote no. And it points to this really worrying part of the debate.
00:11:57
Speaker
where I think a lot of people on the yes side and some people on the no side as well are reflexively smearing anyone who disagrees with them as hateful, ignorant races. What do you think this says about political
Polarization in political debate
00:12:10
Speaker
debate in this country today? I think it's probably never been more polarized, really. I think we're seeing this all over the West. You see it in the United States, don't you, where you've got almost tribal-like behavior. I have to say, one of the things that really stood out was the manner in which the left dealt with COVID.
00:12:27
Speaker
You can see the blind adherence to the narrative coming out from some of these arguments. You had people that once were very anti-corporation, being very pro-big pharma. You had people that were, I suppose, more about workers' rights becoming very pro-mandate. The only thing you can put that down to is the influence of social media, of the media cycle, the news cycle, to push a narrative and to have people stick to those
00:12:55
Speaker
lines without any room for veering off course. Look, I don't know. That's a task for a more apt political scientist than myself, but I suspect that a lot of this is the influence of social media and pushing people into their own corners, if you like, all over the West.
00:13:16
Speaker
I suspect that your social media following and mine is probably pretty similar, but it might be very different to people that would sit on the other side of the political spectrum. I think probably more than ever, we're not seeing media with a common ground, which ultimately is, I think, dividing us even further.
00:13:38
Speaker
I sometimes say I don't know that it's really the case, maybe I'm naive, but I don't know that it's really the case that anyone enters parliament with a view of doing wrong, doing evil.
00:13:48
Speaker
And that applies to people that stand for labor and the Greens. We just see the world a different way. But you wouldn't know that if you saw the tenor of the debate anymore. Every side thinks the other one's got devil horns on. And I don't know what we do to fix that, except to say that I think social media has had a massive, massive input to that.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah, it is interesting. I've spoken about this phenomenon with several people on this podcast and it's the phenomenon of turning politics into sport. You no longer look at a policy or an issue on its merits and think about, well, what are my values? And then how does that
00:14:29
Speaker
influence how I think about this policy. You go to the Liberal Party or do the Republicans or do the Tories support this policy, and then I retrofit my values to fit that. It's a really worrying thing. It gets me thinking about a question on this. Is there a position or a policy that you can think of where you are at odds with, I guess, either a traditional Conservative position or at odds with most of your, for want of a better word, teammates on the Liberal side of the party?
Challenges within the Liberal Party coalition
00:14:56
Speaker
Well, look, I guess some of the COVID measures were probably the closest thing I've come to in recent times. I really do think that the approach taken all over the country was illiberal in many cases. And, you know, I mean, if you look at the Liberal Party, it's, I think, a very tried and trusted and very effective political force, which is the combination of liberalism and conservatism.
00:15:22
Speaker
In the case of forcing people to choose between their job and an untested medical procedure, I can't think of anything more illiberal and less conservative than that. And so I think that's probably, maybe that's more of the libertarian side of me than anything else. But that's probably the one that stands out. Other than that, I would say that there are only
00:15:51
Speaker
rats and mice issues and policy that you might occasionally raise an eyebrow to. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but that one certainly was the real standout. You mentioned the broad church of the Liberal Party and connecting the conservative ideology with the libertarian liberal ideology.
00:16:10
Speaker
It was tried and true. I think some people may suggest that that broad church is cracking somewhat and has been cracking since Howard. And then some people would argue that the rise of the teals is a byproduct of the Liberal Party being unable to hold those two strands together. What does the Liberal Party need to do? Well, firstly, do you agree? And secondly, how do they try and keep those strands together in this day and age?
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think we have seen a natural fracturing of the Alliance over not just the last five years, I think, but probably the last 25 in many ways. I mean, I think this goes back even to the Howard era. I mean, you know, people, let's say, people like Pauline Hanson were originally liberal, so was Clive Palmer.
00:16:51
Speaker
We have seen a natural flow, I think, of some of those portions of the Liberal Party that you would expect. I think that's probably politically predictable that when you do have effectively a coalition, that's what it was. Robert Menzies effectively made the Liberal Party from a disparate
00:17:09
Speaker
bunch of differing conservative and liberal forces and brought them all together. And it really was a coalition of its own form in a sense. So I think it's pretty natural that you would see that kind of flaring. And of course, you would expect that out of a party that values individual freedom and values the individual rather than a collective force. I mean, I look over at the Labor Party.
00:17:33
Speaker
all the time. And I know there are people sitting in those ranks that disagree. I mean, I know it as a fact with a lot of what they do, particularly as that party drifts to the left. And so the Labor Party has pushed out all of those, you know, those old DLP style or most of them, I shouldn't say all of them, but most of them, you know, labor types from the right. And so it's a natural thing, you know, politics is an evolving sort of thing. Whether that explains the teals, I mean, I think that's probably more of a
00:18:02
Speaker
That's probably more of an economic argument, I think. I think there are parts of the community now that have done very, very well, that are very successful, that are very wealthy, and perhaps see the brand of the Liberal Party in a manner that I wouldn't. I mean, I think our future is in more of a traditional suburban and almost even a working class phenomenon.
Shifts in political demographics
00:18:26
Speaker
We see that in the US as well, of course. The Republican Party now in 2023, and probably since 2016, is now really probably a more effective voice for the working man than the Democrats, which are more of an inner city voice now, could ever hope to be. So these things are evolving. Staring ahead of the curve is the trick in politics. And I don't claim to be any great political scientist, but I don't think that we are going to win the next election.
00:18:54
Speaker
by appealing to solely the wealthy inner city trendies and elites. We win elections when we speak to middle Australia. We did it in 2019. The demographics haven't changed that much either. I mean, it's just a fact. What changed, I think, was that we unfortunately drifted from that message. A couple more questions on the Liberal Party specifically. Do you think it has a problem with women?
00:19:17
Speaker
No, no, absolutely not. No, I don't I don't believe that for a minute. I don't I mean, you know, you take South Australia, for example, I don't really even the only time I ever hear that is when there's a pre-selection and, you know, one side's got a female candidate and the other one doesn't. And then, you know, the role supervisors, I don't I don't see it at all. I, in fact, you know, particularly here in SA at state level, I think we've pre-selected of the last
00:19:43
Speaker
We get this right. The last five or four upper house pre-selections, all by one, have been women. And that hasn't happened because we've gone looking for women. We've gone because we've had really good ones. And there are more to come, by the way. We've got some absolutely incredible conservative, genuine liberals, like people that actually share our values, some of them who are relatively recently involved.
00:20:04
Speaker
There's a sort of a movement around some parts of the West, this kind of mama bear movement with women that are tired and fed up with having to watch their daughters play against blokes in sport, that kind of concept. And some of them are just doing incredible things politically and watch this space. I don't think there's a problem in the first place, by the way, but I think that's an easy angle to exploit politically in a cynical manner if you want to. So I assume off that answer, you would be against formal quotas for women in the Liberal Party?
00:20:34
Speaker
Without even batting an eyelid, I will oppose that until I'm six feet under, which hopefully isn't soon. Let's turn to your ambitions before you are eventually six feet under. Do you want to lead the Liberal Party one day?
00:20:50
Speaker
to lead it. Look, I have no aspirations to do that. I've got to tell you, one thing, it's very hard to do that from the upper house. And secondly, I just don't think that that would be a natural fit.
00:21:07
Speaker
I enjoy the sport of politics and trying to push through the political landscape. And that's what doing the sort of things that we're doing out of this office does. There's a need for people who provide a counterweight. And I see my role as being speaking about issues, trying to get some publicity onto them, and trying to get the political landscape back to where it was with a center-right
00:21:33
Speaker
approach, not only in the Liberal Party, but in Australia as well. If I can do that, then I'm very, very happy. I'll leave the fronting up to Radio National to someone with a better temperament than I. It was worth a crack anyway. You mentioned your role, and then you also mentioned the upper house there, and it makes me think about
00:21:53
Speaker
the Senate and I guess improving politics in Australia more generally. So I look at the Senate and I see, well, it used to be a legitimate House of Review. So I think, for example, I go back to the role the Democrats played at their best. I think they were a positive third force in Australian politics. I think they generally, at least at the start, did play that keep the bastards honest role quite well. I think if you look at that
00:22:18
Speaker
incarnation of the Senate and then you compare it to the Senate today, which is comprised of on the crossbench roads and special interest groups. I think the Senate is playing a very different role than it used to. Do you think the Senate does more harm than good today?
00:22:34
Speaker
Oh, that's a great question. Look, I don't think it's doing more harm. The question I guess is whether or not it's providing its role as a house of review. I mean, one thing I would say about that is it is increasingly difficult to do that when a lot of these
00:22:51
Speaker
you know, legislative instruments are being railroaded through. I think the Senate is at its best when it sits back, it gets its committees working, it's standing committees like legal and constitutional affairs like I sit on and people are given a good opportunity to really debate them. And I will say the committee structures generally are pretty collegiate. So I think a lot of that work does get done
00:23:11
Speaker
effectively behind those closed doors where there are no cameras and people don't have to grandstand and everyone's looking for their five minutes of fame. But it's wholly dependent on what the electoral cycle throws up, isn't it? So at the moment, we've got far too many greens. There are, I think, 11. And what I would like to be able to do, and I don't think it's going to make much difference on your podcast, Will, because I think everyone's going to agree with me, but
00:23:36
Speaker
I would love to be able to convey to the Australian public that when they vote Green, they're not really voting for environmentalists anymore. Maybe that's part of what they do now, but it's become so much more. I think if you look back to the Bob Brown Greens, people like that, and you look to the current
00:23:56
Speaker
model, you're seeing a very different set of ethos. And you'd expect things evolve. It does always seem, though, that those of us that draw a line in the sand for conservative values tend to get called names where those who are pushing in the opposite direction tend to get treated like heroes. What does that tell you about the media cycle? Well, that's a whole different topic, and we'll get to that one day. But
00:24:19
Speaker
So I don't, look, I think you're right. I think the Senate works well when there is, you know, and I don't say this from the Liberal Party's point of view, because obviously I'd like to see the ability to move things through from our side routinely. But I think it does work well when there are less, you know, numbers there in the middle. And that certainly, I mean, what we're seeing at the moment is Labor and the Greens just governing without much oversight, frankly, that's my view.
00:24:46
Speaker
It's interesting you mentioned Bob Brown there i saw it and even thought of Bob Brown in years and i saw a tweet the other day of a photo of him off in the forest somewhere and i thought you know. I would love to have Bob Brown back in the kind of greens leadership role is a heck of a lot better than what we have now and i think it makes me think of a broader point here and that is.
00:25:05
Speaker
I would argue that the talent of politicians across the board in Australia, probably across the board in the Western world, is much lower than it was in the Paul Keating Howard years. Would you agree? And if so, why?
The rise of career politicians
00:25:18
Speaker
Why not?
00:25:18
Speaker
Look, I think one of the problems I think we have faced, I just can't judge that. I don't know. I know what you mean. I think it's hard to judge when you're getting older because when I was in my 20s, I looked at people that were in the Senate and in the House of Reps and they were adults, and now I'm that age and I can't judge people. So it's very hard to be able to give that any kind of
00:25:39
Speaker
scientific cred, I've got to say. But one thing I can say is I am worried about the political professionalism we're seeing in politics. And I'm not the only one, by the way. And when I say political professionalism, I mean the amount of people that either don't know anything else other than politics or people that have never done anything else other than politics. And, you know, we used to from my side used to laugh at the ALP, the Australian Labor Party for simply running union
00:26:06
Speaker
delegates and organizers through to a minister's office and then into parliament, and that's all they knew. And Bob Hawke talked about it. He actually talked about what a blight that was before he died. Not that long ago, sort of five, six years ago, he made that statement.
00:26:22
Speaker
But the problem is that there are times, not always, I think we have less of it, but there are times when the other side of politics, my side of politics does the same thing. And that's a problem. And John Howard said the same thing. He not at a dissimilar time to Bob Hawke made the same observation that we need people that have life experience and we need people that aren't necessarily just career politicians in parliament.
00:26:46
Speaker
I think that's a bit of a feature of the last 25, 30 years, and I think it's really unhelpful. One of the things that I have been trying to do, and you get a varying degree of...
00:26:58
Speaker
of views on it, but he's trying to bring real people, people with everyday experience and liberals, people that believe in the values and will stand for them back into the South Australian division. We've been doing it very successfully and it's starting to give us a new wave. I think a new generation of really good people coming into parliament in the upper house, because of course, things just move as they do through the election cycle.
00:27:21
Speaker
So I think that's probably the most important thing in parliament at the moment. I take the example just to touch on that point. If you're a young liberal staffer and you decide that you're interested in politics and you go and work for an MP and then
00:27:36
Speaker
You get involved in the party, and then you stand for parliament, and you're a very good MP. And I think there are lots of examples of that. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. But when that's almost everybody, and I'm not saying that is at the moment, but I'm saying if you get to a critical mass, when all you've got in parliament are people who know nothing more than politics, it becomes hard to speak out. It becomes hard to speak without fear or favor, because what do you do if you get rolled at an election? All you know is politics.
00:28:05
Speaker
So I think that is at least a significant portion of what we have to be careful of. I want to be clear. I don't think that's happened. I don't think we've reached a danger point with that. But I think we've got to be aware of it. The Liberal Party works best when we're bringing people in who've got real life experience. And that's been our strength. Military people, doctors, small business owners, moms that have been stay at home moms that just get elected as well. Everyone brings their own perspective. And that's, I think, where we strive for our best.
00:28:34
Speaker
Okay. Well, we've solved the problems, immediate problems for Australian politics. Let's zoom out to the, some of the hot button issues of the day. I will start with everyone's favorite question of politicians in 2023. How do you define a woman?
00:28:50
Speaker
Yeah, well, I don't have too much problem. It's an adult human female. And I didn't think that'd be a particularly difficult one for you. I didn't go away and come back to you either, as seems to be the case. And I feel bad. I mean, poor old professor, I know he didn't want to do that at that estimates hearing. And I didn't mean to, you know, it wasn't, but it does show the point that these, you know, these bureaucracies now are
00:29:14
Speaker
stifling people from telling what they believe. And because there's a weight of people behind the senior bureaucrats, I think, that may disagree with them. So there's a few problems there. But ultimately, doesn't that just highlight the point? The fact that that's become a sort of a global question and everyone's getting asked it now. I mean, that's hard to imagine five years ago.
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, it is. Well, you went on record and you talked about the rallies in Victoria. I'll quote, you said, last week, a group of brave women in Victoria gathered to protest men using their bathrooms and dominating their sports. The activist media and leftist political hacks of this nation described it as an ugly, evil, harmful political gathering, never even seeking to distinguish between the nitwits who turned up in black from the genuine female protesters.
00:30:05
Speaker
I agree. At the same time, your fellow Liberals, technically at least, have expelled more redeeming for being one of those brave women. What was your reaction to her expulsion?
00:30:14
Speaker
Well, I don't understand it. I mean, I don't understand how it got to that point and I'm very sad about it because I don't know Moira well, but I've met her once, I think, and I found her to be very genuine and very engaging and very principled by the way. I mean, we talk about having a problem with women and all I've seen of Moira redeeming is that she's a strong voice for women's issues and she somehow seems to have found herself on the outer with the Victorian division. Now, I mean, you know, these are
00:30:40
Speaker
Speaking about other divisions from your own division is a danger sport in politics and I really don't want to tell the Victorian division anything they don't want to hear but I just don't see what she did wrong and I've said that publicly multiple times.
00:30:52
Speaker
And I think it's a real shame. I think she, you know, I think she really does have a lot to offer. And I can't I mean, if this is this is the standard now for and I know there were a few intervening, you know, this sort of cascaded like a lot of these things too. But the starting point was this, the original point of
00:31:12
Speaker
conjecture with what happened was that she attended a women's rights rally that was gate crashed by neo-Nazis. Now, if that's the standard that we are up to then, I mean, every single union thug that turns up at an ALP show is going to bring that show and the people that attended into Distribute. And that can't be right, can it? I mean, that just simply can't be right.
00:31:37
Speaker
No, it can't. I think those facts are spot on. I know that you are somewhat limited in what you can say. I'm certainly not. I think it was disgraceful and I think it was a very poor reflection on the Liberal brand. This is a separate but related question. How have we as a society gone from believable women in the aftermath of the Me Too movement
00:31:59
Speaker
to ignoring the public assault and abuse of women like Kelly J. Keene in Melbourne and in Auckland and Riley Gaines almost overnight. How's that change happened in society? Incredible, isn't it? It's a great point and well made too, I must say. But it is absolutely staggering that we could. I was thinking about it the other day. I was reflecting on the likes of Moira and Catherine Deves and people like that who have taken a strong stance on very reasonable issues in my view.
00:32:29
Speaker
And you really can draw a line, I think back to the original suffragette movement, where women were threatened 100 years ago more, were threatened, were humiliated publicly, were shamed by their peers, and really isolated politically in many respects.
00:32:47
Speaker
for views which are quite uncannily reasonable, probably then, but also now, in many cases. I mean, I don't profess to be a total historian on the suffragette movement, but a lot of the stuff they were talking about was the right to vote, you know, the right to an equal vote. Now, there wouldn't be too many people that would, you know, would be about that anymore. But at the time, you know, these people were marginalised. It's hard not to draw a distinction between some of these brave women, and they are brave women.
00:33:13
Speaker
today to that movement of yes, the year. And so, look how that's happened.
Conservative activism in defending values
00:33:19
Speaker
Things have moved very quickly in five years. The progressive movement has found its lane and it is now on the wall path. And I keep saying the long march through the institutions that the left have been on, the march is not on anymore. These people are through, they're finished, they've taken their boots off and they're drinking whiskey.
00:33:37
Speaker
So if we're in a conservative start to understand that we are not the establishment anymore. We are no longer with the whip hand. We are up against it. So no more capitulation. I'm talking about politicians. I'm talking about
00:33:52
Speaker
everybody on the street, we all make excuses for things that we know are wrong, and it's not just politics. It's also getting people back involved in the political process in the media, in their business, at their local footy club. We want people to be vocal about what they believe in to help us hold the line.
00:34:12
Speaker
Well, one media institution that is vocal about what it believes in and won't tolerate that sort of stuff is the Spectator Australia. It's covering all the hot button Australian politics issues. And we will give you a wider view of the converging social, economic and military crises the West is facing at the moment. Sign up for a digital subscription today for $16.99 a month with one month free at spectator.com.au forward slash join.
00:34:36
Speaker
Alex, in that plug, I stole a quote of yours. You have indeed said we are living through. Just thinking how very learned you were during that. That's right. I don't have a problem appropriating good material. You have said we're living through converging social, economic and military crises. And you've also said the West is to blame for its own demise. Can you expand on that?
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think what I was talking about there was the, you know, the situation we're finding ourselves in now globally, let's say, I mean, we've got a, you know, I think what will be a very studied period where I think that the alliance between China and Russia and others, the so-called BRICS alliance as a starting point is now starting to gain serious global economic and military traction, which is a real worry for the West.
00:35:27
Speaker
And we're seeing a change. We're seeing a shift in the global political sphere where the US is not our greatest ally. The US is no longer unassailable at the top of the tree. There are real question marks over the US dollar being the standard. There's real questions over the military in the US and whether it keeps its mantle as the number one for long. I mean, it still is, but how long does that last? There's some real watershed stuff going on at the moment.
00:35:55
Speaker
All the meantime, we are distracted by the voice and by, you know, gender politics and whatever. Now, the question has to be, you know, how long do we continue to, you know, get distracted by this stuff while the big game is playing on? And you see that in Canberra all the time. We walk in and we're talking about, we're naval gazing, if you like, at sort of, and we have to, I mean, it's, you know, a domestic political arena, we have to do that. But there's some serious stuff happening out there on the geopolitical stage.
00:36:23
Speaker
And I think that people need to start to understand that. And we're in a precarious position in many respects in that sense. And our generations ahead would thank us for being more aware of it.
00:36:39
Speaker
Well, a very big piece of that geopolitical puzzle is China.
China as a geopolitical threat
00:36:44
Speaker
You've been very forthright in calling China an enemy of Australia. What should Australia's foreign policy with regard to China look like? Well, that's a massive, massive question, I suppose. I mean, I guess we, you know, it depends on the view you take. I mean, we should be trading with the world and I don't have a problem that anyone has, but I think
00:37:04
Speaker
I think we saw what happened post COVID when China decided it didn't like what we were saying about COVID and it just turned the switches off. And I think and I believe that many Australian businesses are now pivoting towards other markets and looking to sort of bulletproof our future from a trade point of view. But obviously we need to be trading with everyone. And but yeah, look, I don't know. I think we
00:37:30
Speaker
You know, we have to accept that I don't believe the CCP is not, you know, and we have to say this, I mean, we're not talking about the Chinese people who are very good people. We are talking about the ruling elites, the Chinese Communist Party who I don't believe have Australia's best interests at heart. And everything we do on a foreign policy level needs to bear that in mind. I'm sure it does. In many respects, I'm not suggesting it doesn't. But, you know, ultimately, that regime is not our friend.
00:38:00
Speaker
How likely do you think a conflict is between the US and China in the next 10 years? Look, I think on a personal level, I think it's almost inevitable. On some level, I mean, you couldn't put a crystal ball down and work out what it looked like. Does it look like a flashpoint in Taiwan? Does it look like something else? But, you know, history would show that a rising power and a sort of a diminishing power ultimately do come to blows at some point. I just think it's inevitable. We know China's got designs on Taiwan. What it actually looks like, I mean,
00:38:29
Speaker
We don't know, but I think, look, my gut feeling is it'll be sooner than that. I think we'll see you in the next five. Do you think Australia is militarily ready to support the US if that sort of eventuality does occur?
00:38:44
Speaker
Well, I mean, whether or not we're ready, I don't know that we'd ever be really ready for that kind of warfare, would we? I'm no military expert by any stretch. But look, I don't know. I think a lot of this good work was done in the last term of government, where we did see the coalition and our current leader, Peter Dutton, doing some really good things in order to, you know, the Orcas deal for starters, which is going to have a big impact. But how could you ever be ready for
00:39:10
Speaker
you know, a genuine battle with a superpower. We are only ever going to be a piece in that puzzle. I think the most worrying thing is how the US is ready for that. And we know at the moment they're, you know, their military is stretched already with the war in Ukraine, ammunition's low. And so, you know, there are some problems there, I think, and I hope they can sort them out because a lot's riding on it.
00:39:35
Speaker
We have a few more minutes, but I want to get on the topic of China. I want to get your thoughts on this and that is you've spoken at length about the danger of a CCP style social credit system.
CCP-style social credit system warnings
00:39:46
Speaker
For listeners who may not be across it, what does that look like and why is it a risk for Australians?
00:39:52
Speaker
I mean, the social credit system, I think, is a massive problem. I think we're creeping towards it every single day at the moment, and Covid really showed that. So what we're talking about when we say a social credit style system, I'm sure most of your listeners are aware of this, but in China at the moment, if you are just a regular citizen and you, for example, get a
00:40:16
Speaker
speeding camera fine or you're seeing Jay walking or you simply miss a payment on your mortgage. Potentially, that's tracked in many cases and your social credit score will drop. If it drops too low, you can be excluded from services. There are stories about people incurring the wrath of the regime and then being shut out from being able to buy a train ticket or a plane ticket.
00:40:44
Speaker
We saw that famously with the bank in China that went under, and I think it was one particular province, I forget where it was, but when people descended upon that town in order to actually physically get their cash out,
00:40:59
Speaker
The government simply put up a sort of a red cross on their COVID travel passports and people simply couldn't travel. So we saw the beginnings of this under COVID here. We had all sorts of
00:41:14
Speaker
early warning signs about a social credit system. The most notable one that I remember was the QR codes, of course, which was a big deal. But there were even little things. South Australia had a home quarantine app where if you had been directed home to quarantine for COVID, which is all a bit of a distant memory and can't let it be a distant memory, but it is.
00:41:35
Speaker
you would potentially be allowed in certain circumstances to download this app and to use it as almost a form of home detention where you'd get prompted three or four times a day by the app and you'd be required to take a photo of yourself, which would then use the GPS data, send that information back to South Australian Police and SA Health. And if it all correlated and you were where you said you were,
00:42:00
Speaker
you didn't get a knock on the door from the police. And if it wasn't then, or you didn't answer, then you would get a knock on the door from the police and they would show up. And that was all in the name of COVID. So my great fear is what does this look like at the next emergency, whatever that is. So do we see climate emergencies where people can't use their digital currency because they are, say for example, looking to buy a tank petrol or perhaps there's some limits put on the things you can buy at supermarkets.
00:42:29
Speaker
This technology is arising all around us. And Australians would be wise to be very wary about this because I think it will happen. Alex, we're just about at time. My final question, we've talked about a lot of kind of different strands here and I want to pull it together.
00:42:46
Speaker
Are you optimistic about the future for Australia?
Challenges facing Australia and future outlook
00:42:51
Speaker
And if you were to look at kind of this country and go, what's the one big ticket item that we need to be thinking about and potentially that we can change, what would that be for you?
00:43:00
Speaker
Look, I think in the long run, I am optimistic that people are starting to understand what's been happening over the last few years. And I think people are going to need to wake up a little bit more about some of the stuff. The problem with conservatives and everyday Aussies is everyone's out doing their things that they are meant to be doing, running businesses, taking kids to school. Everyone's busy, working jobs, I get it. Not everybody is afforded the luxury of thinking about politics all day like I do.
00:43:28
Speaker
That is a very real thing. I do think that we are in for some difficult times in the next few years. I think the sort of spending we saw in this budget is a great example. I do feel as though we are going to have to go through a period of
00:43:45
Speaker
Sadly, a period of difficulty for Australia in order for people to shake off the nonsense of, let's say, climate alarmism, for example. And the best way, I'm not wishing this on anyone, but I think the most likely way that will happen is as bills continue to rise, which they will. It's just almost beyond doubt.
00:44:04
Speaker
Beyond that, I am hopeful that we are going to start to see a return to sensible values in this country, but I do think there are genuine global pressures that are coming, the ones we talked about with the geopolitical forces, and I do worry that we are going to see a period of conflict in the next period.
00:44:23
Speaker
Look, beyond that, it's hard to say, but Aussies are pretty resilient. We've got to get back to finding that resilient streak. We need to be more crocodile dung-dee and less, I've got to find a nice, safe analogy here. Less, help me out.
00:44:40
Speaker
Lydia thought came to mind, but you may not be able to say that. Well, yeah, less something else. I don't know anyway. But, you know, that that's what made this country work, really, is that resilient. We've got to find the Larrickans again as well. You know, I think one of the things I'm really sick of is Aussies being told they can't laugh at anything anymore. You know, no one's no one's laughing at stuff out of malice. This kind of nonsense about microaggressions and subliminal racism and all this nonsense. Like we don't we want to be like that. We want to get back to what we used to be.
00:45:09
Speaker
I could speak about that topic with you for another few hours, but your chief of staff is on my case, so we will save that one for the next podcast. I recommend everyone follows Alex on social media. The links are in the show notes. You can substitute with how he's thinking about the issues of the day. Alex, thank you very much for coming on, Australiana. Well, thanks very much for having me and keep up the great work.
00:45:31
Speaker
Thank you very much for listening to this episode of Australiana. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a rating and a review. And if you really enjoyed the show, head to spectator.com.au forward slash join. Sign up for a digital subscription today and you'll get your first month absolutely free.