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Meet the Liberal operative who blew up the Green Party
147 Plays3 years ago
Duncan Kinney sits down with Noah Zatzman, former advisor to former Green Party of Canada leader Annamie Paul, for a feature interview. Zatzman blew up the Green Party of Canada by posting about how he wanted to unseat two-thirds of the party's sitting MPs for their criticism of Israel.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey folks, Duncan Kinney here to remind you that the Progress Report is a proud member of the Harbinger Media Network. And a pod on Harbinger that I want to highlight is the latest from our friends at the Forgotten Corner. Jeremy Appel and Scott Schmidt welcome back Dr. Gosia Gasperovic to talk about how Alberta can dodge the fifth wave of COVID that is, of course, coming our way.
00:00:21
Speaker
This week's guest on our show is also a very interesting interview with Noah Zatzman, the former liberal political operative who did what I only ever joked about doing, and that's blowing up the Green Party of Canada. And he pretty much did it single-handedly. So that interview is coming up. But first I just want to say it's nearly December, which means it's part of our annual funding drive, which means right now I have to ask for money.
00:00:46
Speaker
If you like this podcast, if you listen regularly, if you like the original journalism and analysis you get at The Progress Report, we need your help. We need you to kick in a little bit of money every month. There's a link in the show notes, or you can just go to theprogressreport.ca slash patrons and just put in your credit card and start up a recurring donation.
00:01:05
Speaker
$5 a month, $15 a month, hell, $50 a month. Whatever you can afford, Jim and I both really need it. And we also really appreciate it. We can't do this work without the support of our listeners. So thank you so much. And now onto the show.
Introducing Noah Zatzman
00:01:33
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host, Duncan Kinney. We're recording today here in Amiskwichiwa, Skaigen, otherwise known as Edmonton, Alberta, here in Treaty 6 territory on the banks of the mighty Kasiska-Sawanissippi, or the North Saskatchewan River. Joining us today is Noah Zatzman.
00:01:52
Speaker
political operative who nearly single-handedly blew up the Canadian Green Party.
Background in Liberal Politics
00:01:58
Speaker
Noah, welcome to the podcast and congratulations on destroying the Green Party of Canada, something I only joked about doing with my friends. How are you doing today? Duncan, thanks so much for having me. In my real life, that's what seems to have happened, but I really appreciate you having me and looking forward to our chat.
00:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, so okay, I wanna preface this by saying like, you know, I am not invested in the success or failure of the Green Party at all. I'm not a member, I don't organize, I don't, actually I think in my early 20s I did a video package where I said I was supporting the Green Party, but like, in modern day Duncan really doesn't care that much about the Green Party except over the past year I have been rapturously reading
00:02:46
Speaker
an inordinate amount of content about the Green Party because of internal drama and all sorts of funny business going on within the Green Party of Canada that saw its leader lose, its leader, Annemie Paul, who has now resigned as leader of the Green Party. We've seen a decrease in seats for the Green Party and really an incredibly poor result in the federal election on the whole.
00:03:12
Speaker
And I don't know how many of these folks are listening. Green party supporters exist, I suppose. They're likely looking around at the wreckage of their party wondering, what the fuck happened? And so you reached out to me about coming out of the pod. I wanted to understand the person behind what happened with the Green Party. So let's get into it. Let's start off with some easy questions. How would you describe your politics? Where are you from?
00:03:41
Speaker
circumstances that led to Noah's Aspen being talking to me over the internet right now. Yeah, I know. Well, Duncan, thank you again. And really, it all started when, you know, a friend of mine reached out last summer and asked if I wanted to help out Annamie and her leadership. This friend of mine was connected through, you know, family. And that's why I think we're often described as family friends.
00:04:03
Speaker
There's a connection through that. But really, I'm a Liberal Party person. My family has been Liberal Party members from time immemorial, so to speak. I worked for Premier Wynn in Ontario. I worked in the federal parliament for the Liberal Party. I consider myself a progressive, liberal,
00:04:28
Speaker
you know, a person always have. And so much of, you know, I think what happened with Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott in the Prime Minister's first mandate before I even met Annamie had soured me on the federal liberals. Obviously, the situation in Ontario in 2018 with Kathleen Wynne
00:04:52
Speaker
It was very difficult for me and for everyone, didn't get a lot of support from the federal liberals, and then really felt strange from the party, from this party I had been part of as a result of the way they had treated Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane. So when my friend called me to say, will you come and help enemy and could be the green leader, I thought, why not?
00:05:17
Speaker
And I think that what started off, Duncan, as you know,
00:05:25
Speaker
really needed just helping a few days a week on leadership with media and communications became something that I was more invested in and more invested in to where when she won the leadership, I kind of sort of took over the media and communications elements almost entirely and began along with a few others running her office. It's something I really was doing as a friend, something I should have,
00:05:52
Speaker
probably knowing everything now stopped, moved on from doing what the by-election had finished in October. We had a lot of success in the leadership in the by-election, but then things went haywire. I mean, yeah, your personal, your professional, your political history doesn't make it seem like you're a natural fit for the Green Party of Canada. But I think you explained
00:06:18
Speaker
a bit about why you ended up in Annamie Paul's office and working for Annamie Paul. Why don't we talk about, I mean, is there something that drew you to the Green Party? Is climate activism, is climate action something that you are passionate about? Was that what drew you into the Green Party aside from perhaps the personal connection to- No, no, it was entirely the personal connection that drew me into the leadership and into the party.
Commitment to Climate Action
00:06:45
Speaker
concurrently dunking at the same time, just ironically, happened to be working with Climate Strike Canada and a whole other range of climate groups on the previous throne speech from a year and a half ago. They had a campaign called Not Going Back.
00:07:03
Speaker
You know, I certainly have found myself over the last number of years really focused on climate. And I think what really sparked out for me was four years spent at Discovery Channel working primarily on Daily Planet, which for those who remember, was a nightly show that Discovery Canada aired at seven every night. And they were really the first folks, you know, Jay Ingram hosted Zaya Tong, eventually Dan Riskin.
00:07:32
Speaker
Jay Ingram, the legend, who I think lives in Edmonton, by the way. I think he follows me on Twitter. He does. He does. Jay's the greatest Canadian in my mind and a wonderful human being. So so much of my first introductory time on a climate and really in my first few months working at Discovery with Zai and Jay,
00:07:57
Speaker
We had Fukushima, we had so many other things happen, which, you know, this was already 10 years ago I started there when I was 26. And so that was the beginning for me. And working with Zaya Tong as well, who was a longtime climate champion, Jay, a longtime climate champion, you know, as a young 26-year-old made a mark. And I've stayed in that, you know,
00:08:24
Speaker
Not entirely, but it's been certainly a part of my life, and the last two years a much bigger part of my life. So I got to ask, what do you think the biggest problem we face as a species today? What is the greatest crisis that we face?
00:08:45
Speaker
Obviously our warming planet. I think we've seen obviously in British Columbia horrific Horrific double whole tragedy I would say this year both with the heat dome and now with the atmospheric flooding Atmospheric rain and the flooding I think that that's certainly
00:09:07
Speaker
And I think that the most important thing to be thinking out when it comes to climate change and our warming planet is what we're going to do about it. And the energy transition that's required right now, I really did draw me into anime and probably kept me with anime because anime always talked about chance of a lifetime. And I think that, I think everyone's going to be looking out to see how the Trudeau government, how the government of Canada decides to meet the climate targets that they've committed to a cop.
00:09:37
Speaker
Well, at the same time, you know, electrifying the grid in a way that, you know, allows for mitigation and adaptation. And I think we really have to go full steam now. And I think clearly the biggest threat to the planet is rising oceans, rising oceans and whether that's, you know, completely unpredictable. And in the case of, you know, Lytton BC, for example,
00:10:04
Speaker
saw an entire town burn down. And what I really took from a lot of the commentary around, and I'm not sure about you Duncan, was that the line that many folks said, which was, it could have been any town.
00:10:16
Speaker
So, yes, I mean, the climate emergency is an emergency and it really should be top of mind, which is why it was so shocking to me that, you know, we spent so many months in the Green Party talking about Israel-Palestine and not about, you know, especially with members out in BC, you know, what was happening with the climate emergency.
00:10:39
Speaker
Fair enough. So you brought up Annamie Paul. I definitely want to ask about Annamie Paul. How would you describe her as a politician? As a politician, well, Annamie is just a lovely person. I think as a politician, she was looking to be the best version sort of of what a politician sort of could be, kind of in the Jed Bartlett West Wing kind of a way, you feel me? Okay, okay.
00:11:06
Speaker
And unfortunately, that's very naive in our system that exists now, right? It's not an NBC broadcast network show debuted in 1999.
00:11:20
Speaker
Politics is not written by Aaron Serkin. No, absolutely not. I wish. I wish. So I think that, unfortunately, you know, anime won the leadership and was placed in a situation which required sort of a lot of background politicking, a lot of caucus management.
00:11:42
Speaker
And he's the kind of person, the former ICC prosecutor that she is and her incredible professional history, was really looking probably to do committee work and policy work. And she's a policy wonk.
00:11:59
Speaker
So, you know, when we see some of these professional politicians, you know, Pierre Poliev, you know, Mark Holland, you know, she's not in that vein. You know, Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Atoll, she's not in that vein. This was outside of her wheelhouse, which is also, I used to say that all the time, you know, I would say this is out of the wheelhouse, out of the wheelhouse. And often folks would say to me, that's why people like her. That's the appeal.
00:12:25
Speaker
So, well, so speaking of professional politicians, what
Challenges in Green Party Leadership
00:12:28
Speaker
was the relationship like between Annamie Paul and Elizabeth May? Like fucking terrible. Like awful. Like the relationship between Jenica and Paul and Annamie were, I would say mostly better throughout most of the year, ironically. What does that mean when you say it's awful?
00:12:52
Speaker
Like, how was it awful? Yeah, I mean, I think it was just two people who wanted to lead the party, only one of whom was the leader of the party. I think that, and again, I can't really speak so, you know,
00:13:16
Speaker
You know, I'm not, it's this, you know, there's a psychological part of this too, where I don't really know why the relationship broke down between Elizabeth and the enemy. Um, but I entirely blame Elizabeth. Um, I think the way that that she, that enemy was treated by, um, by Elizabeth at times was, um, uh,
00:13:42
Speaker
not appropriate and I think that made things very difficult from the start. I actually had an outstanding relationship in my mind with Elizabeth.
00:13:54
Speaker
And there was one time, you know, and I think this, you know, speaks to sort of some of the microaggressions and beyond that Annie felt this last year, which made it the quote unquote the worst experience of her life, as you probably heard in her final press conference, which was I remember saying to her,
00:14:16
Speaker
you know, at one point during the year, you know, just, you know, let's just let caucus do what they want to do and let Elizabeth say what she wants to say and we're going where she wants to go. And I think Annamie said something to me like, you know, you're experiencing this differently than I am, which was such a kick in the pants for me. You know, I'm experiencing Elizabeth through my vantage point, as you know,
00:14:41
Speaker
a cis white male privileged person who had been in the business already, right? That's not the way the enemy and many others were experiencing Elizabeth or experienced Elizabeth. There is this incredible quote from Liz May that's rather long, but I think it's worth reading out in full.
00:15:01
Speaker
And also, and asking a couple of particular questions, but it's from the Victoria Times colonists. I'll just read it from it now. Quote, this is Elizabeth May speaking. From where I stand now, having supported her in the leadership contest, having done everything I could to support her when she became leader, including campaigning in Toronto in her by-election, offering to, this is important, offering to stand down in Saanich Gulf Islands riding so that she could run here.
00:15:24
Speaker
accepting her instructions that I not give media interviews nor participate in press conferences, to shrink my role and shrink some more, except to support her by fundraising for her Toronto Centre campaign in my own writing, I wonder what more I could have done." Well, she could have done it, right, Duncan? She could have fucking done it. She didn't do it. You ever hear Andrew Scheer anymore? No, right? She was everywhere all the time. She never did it. And so anyway, I'm sure you have a full question. I just wanted to make sure.
00:15:52
Speaker
No, no, no, that's a very fair reaction. It's an incredibly patronizing quote. Particularly the thing that is worth following up on is the offer to stand down in Saanich Gulf Islands and for enemy Paul to run there as opposed to Toronto Centre. Did that offer happen? Was it real?
00:16:09
Speaker
I think the offer was made publicly. You know, I don't think for the life of me it was real. I mean, because I live in the real world. Elizabeth knows, everyone in Canadian politics knows, San Angelo Islands is Elizabeth May's seat.
00:16:28
Speaker
demographics in that community, the work that she has done, incredible work. She is an excellent constituency MP in that way.
00:16:44
Speaker
I think that it was just not, and I think Elizabeth says so many things that are at the time of benefit to her. And I think that's what that quote is about. And that's what that idea is about. And it was not a real idea. Elizabeth loves being in parliament. She just ran for speaker at an office hall. Parliamentarian of the year, baby.
00:17:13
Speaker
McLean's, what, what? So I think that, yeah, like with a lot, as I've learned with a lot that comes out of Elizabeth's mouth, you have to take it with a grain of salt, a very, very, very large grain of salt. You're an experienced political operative. Do you think that, I mean, shouldn't enemy have Paul have run in the safest green seat that was available to her, which was Elizabeth May's seat? I think that
00:17:44
Speaker
You know, we did, the idea of, of Annamie's election was to grow the party. So I think if she had done that, that, you know, the SGI specifically, San Francisco violence specifically, it might not have looked particularly good, but I think certainly there were other places, you know, in BC, uh, that, that might've worked. Um, and certainly, you know, to jump off of that, Duncan, there were places in Ontario that probably worked better too. You know, as you know.
00:18:06
Speaker
The Greens have a – had an MPP in Guelph or something. Yeah. That's right. So Mike Schreiner had been elected 2018 in Guelph. The Kitchener-Waterloo-Guelph region is very much – as we know now with like Morris's election – very much on-site with green values.
00:18:24
Speaker
And, you know, I think, though, that Annamie really felt that she wanted to. She had, you know, we had done very well in the by-election and she wanted to try a third time. All I can say as to the political strategy behind that was that almost everyone in her orbit and in the party urged her not to, including myself.
00:18:46
Speaker
Okay. I'm glad she was getting good advice because I mean, yeah, any idiot. I'm just some fucking independent Goomba journalist in fucking Edmonton, but it's like.
00:18:55
Speaker
Toronto Centre has been liberal for the past 20 some nearly 30 years. Before that, it was Tory. I know you had the one decent by-election result, but in a general, I never understood it. No, two different things. I think that it was also Duncan when she made that decision that kind of an indication to some of us that
00:19:18
Speaker
the fights with the party had already been sort of full bore at that point in February, even though it hadn't been reported yet. And so when she, you know, we looked at, you know, I even at one point begged, I said, just Toronto Danforth, you know, you know, Spadana, can you imagine if she had picked Spadana Fort York, right? You know, what would have happened given Kevin Vong and everything with that?
00:19:40
Speaker
So again, there were, um, there were other options and it just, I think the choice reflected what was happening internally, which was a terrible situation for enemy, even at that time in February. So what is your relationship with enemy Paul these days?
00:19:56
Speaker
Um, so, you know, we're still through the, through the family friends, um, uh, you know, engaged with, um, you know, her, her wonderful mother-in-law and wonderful father-in-law, wonderful family. Um, you know, unfortunately we have not had a chance to catch up since, you know, the summer when this all went down. Um, but you know, I've made, uh, decided through the summer,
00:20:24
Speaker
to continue helping her team and her people as much as I could, especially through the crazy times Duncan when, between the time that Dennika let cross the floor and when Annemie had won that legal battle for leadership in the middle of the summer, up through when she opened her office, I was as much, you know,
00:20:48
Speaker
as available as I could be to her team, who I consider just dear dear friends and spoke every day until yesterday. But I think that we both felt that you'd have to ask her, but I think that around mid-June that as a result of the
00:21:08
Speaker
just intense amount of online harassment and anti-Semitism that was coming our way. But it was just, you know, my parents had to deal with their address. It was just crazy that it was just a good idea to just, you know, part, you know, part ways and, you know, so I really, it's, you know,
00:21:29
Speaker
heartbroken for her, heartbroken for her family that, you know, this was her experience and, you know, because it wasn't the worst experience of my life or I'm sure many other people who worked with her. But we are an enemy, right? It wasn't, and again, I speak, go back to that situation with Elizabeth where I was experiencing it differently, right? So again,
00:21:49
Speaker
Animes intersectional experience as a black woman, as a Jewish woman, as a woman, right, was a critical piece of this. And when she talked about, you know, the glass shattered, but she'd be crawling over it and bleeding, you know, I think that was evocative of that.
Controversy Over Statements on Israel
00:22:11
Speaker
So you said earlier like when it all went down and I think now is the time to kind of bring up, we're 20 some minutes in and now is the time to talk about when it all went down. I'm just going to read the Facebook post that started essentially a cascading series of events that led to the green party getting trounced in the last federal election and enemy Paul stepping down as well as a whole bunch of other bullshit.
00:22:34
Speaker
Quote, this is a quote from you, Noah. We will not accept an apology after you realize what we've done. We will work to defeat you and bring in progressive climate champions who are Antifa and pro-LGBT and pro-Indigenous sovereignty and Zionist, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. I mean, the thing I left out there was BLM. I forgot that. I meant to put that in as well.
00:23:01
Speaker
Fair enough. And this is in the context of you going after two separate elected Green MPs, or at least Green MPs at the time, Jenica Atwin and Paul Manley, who had, I can't remember the exact context of their statements, but essentially had expressed solidarity
00:23:19
Speaker
with Palestine, I think in the context of evictions from Sheikh Jarrah, I can't remember the exact context. No, they didn't express solidarity with Palestine because I express solidarity with Palestine. They expressed
00:23:34
Speaker
views that are anti-Semitic towards Israel and the Israeli state. So in Paul Manley's case, he talked about ethnic cleansing. There being ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem, which is a complete fabrication. And Ms. Atwood has been widely reported, tweeted about an apartheid state. And of course, as you know, she had to apologize when she crossed the floor 72 hours after crossing the floor.
00:24:04
Speaker
And I'm just going to jump in here because I'm not necessarily here to talk about Israel. Again, I'm an independent journalist who lives in Edmonton, Alberta. I don't write about Israel. It's not a core part of my political identity being for or against it. I definitely have my opinions on Israel.
00:24:24
Speaker
But I think I want to go back to that statement because I think it's it's it's very strange to me, actually. Like how many progressive climate champions who are Antifa and pro-LGP, LGBT and pro-Indigenous sovereignty and Zionist exist? Well, I mean, Richie Torres, right? U.S. Congressman, you know, we have this. I mean, it speaks to, I think, Duncan, the Antifa, this guy's Antifa. He's black blocking up and like and showing up when Nazis are marching.
00:24:56
Speaker
I mean, Rich, I mean, in the, you know, among certain elements of the left, I mean, you know, I don't know how many of them would associate with Antifa or not. But I think that in terms of, I don't know if the question is really about the linkage that I'm making between Zionism and these other progressive causes, but
00:25:15
Speaker
I think that this was sort of the big battle that you saw take place over the summer, not only in the Greens, but the NDP when it came to Israel-Palestine. Does that answer your question? Well, no, it's like, how many of those people exist? Like, of those lists of, you know, listed off all those things, progressive climate champions who are Antifa and pro-LGBT and pro-Indigenous sovereignty and Zionist. How many of those people exist?
00:25:36
Speaker
Well, I would think that, I would hope, and my idealized world, that would be the Liberal Party of Canada, right? I think that they, a lot of them do exist. And I think that really so many Jewish people, I mean, my grandparents were in leftist socialist movements when they were kids, right? So, so much of,
00:26:01
Speaker
The Jewish community in the US and Canada and Israel has been progressive, has been socialist, has been leftist. The state of Israel was founded by socialists by David Ben-Gurion, who was a leftist. They founded Kibbutz.
00:26:17
Speaker
No, I think that, you know, there is a long history of linking all of those things. And I think that that is what was so, in my mind, what was so, you know, so troubled, this element of the Green Party led by Demetri Lascaris and Paul Manley.
00:26:40
Speaker
I just have to say, I don't know anyone who is like this. I do not know any Zionists who are staunch pro-Indigenous sovereignty or who are staunch Antifa people who are like who are at the Witsuitin, like I was at a Witsuitin solidarity rally that happened. And I didn't know everyone there. I mean, I'm not going to try and expand my personal circle to include everyone.
00:27:05
Speaker
That overlap, you, you throw that Zionist in at the end of that Venn diagram and it becomes very tiny. The fact that they overlap with those other groups. I think it's, you know, I think, I think that, um, I guess all I can say is you've met one today, Duncan.
00:27:25
Speaker
Nice to meet you. You've met one today. And I think that there are, you know, the intersection of all those ideas among progressive people, I think, you know, is much more
00:27:42
Speaker
a thing than you probably think. And I think, again, this is why I always talk about this AOC versus Richie Torres idea in the Democratic Congress, because the left is having this, the progressives are having this book that relates to that.
00:27:57
Speaker
I gotta be honest, I don't know who Richie Torres is. I try not to follow American politics. My brain's already broken by Alberta politics. I shall. I shall. Was this talking about US politics then? Yeah, I mean, I just, I can't, I can't. I already pay attention to all these psychos out here. So, I mean, I don't know. This, but this statement essentially sets off the chain of events that led to, eventually, Annamie Paul resigning as leader of the party and the, and the Green Party.
00:28:26
Speaker
going down catastrophically in the last federal election. Do you regret those statements at all? No. And I don't think that my Facebook post
00:28:41
Speaker
is necessarily the reason. I mean, it's certainly, as you say, perhaps set things off, especially as related to the federal council and the non-confidence vote. When it comes to Jenica, when I think she would have crossed the floor anyway, and she had already made her plans. But that being said, I don't regret a thing. There was anti-Semitism coming out of our federal parliamentarians. I was working with them every single day. I had to speak up. Do you think saying what you said helped Annamy Paul?
00:29:12
Speaker
Obviously not, but this was not a situation where we could have not spoken up.
00:29:25
Speaker
Um, this was not a situation, um, where, you know, I needed to sit there and think Duncan about what are the political ramifications, you know, when you are experiencing, when you are experiencing hate, when you are experiencing intolerance, it's not something you are the political, the political ramifications, you know, all the political ramifications, um,
00:29:47
Speaker
do not necessarily enter your mind. And I don't know, you know, I should say that I was speaking about more than just, you know, Paul and Jenica. I talked about Jagmeet Singh, Timitri Lascaris, a number of other folks who also in my mind disseminated anti-Semitism. But no, I don't regret it at all. And I wish the party would have dealt with my accusation and my
00:30:12
Speaker
and what I was trying to say instead of saying back to me, you know, no, no, no, we'll tell you what anti-Semitism is. So very frustrating and an awful experience, obviously.
00:30:25
Speaker
So, you know, I've tried to stay as far away from party politics as possible. And by and large, electoral politics sucks ass. But no, what kind of person joins a party and then tries to publicly turf two thirds of its elected MPs?
00:30:48
Speaker
Well, I think that, yeah, no, it's, it's, um, you know, to me, it was the opposite Duncan. It's, you know, what party has someone join them and then allows their MPs to say those things. Right. So for me, it's the, it's the flip side. Um,
00:31:03
Speaker
I had only the intention up until May, until the Israel-Palestine situation began, of wanting the utmost best for the party. We were looking at great polling in Toronto and Montreal, great polling at West and out East, and so on. But then when something like this happens, and you just, and I guess I didn't have the sense, and the enemy's chief of staff, Phil Spidle, said to me,
00:31:33
Speaker
A few days before this all happened, the party was going to implode over Israel. And I said, no way, Phil. What the fuck were you talking about? He was right. He was right. But I think that speaks to what the issue is now, which is I think the carbonization of this party. This party is going, you know, this party could not let go, right, over my statement. They destroyed themselves over it. They burnt themselves down over it.
00:31:58
Speaker
They could have moved on, they didn't. And because Israel and Palestine was a bigger deal in the climate for the Green Party, that to me is the course of it. I'm not going to, just going to ignore the fact that you used Corbyn's name in that way because Jeremy Corbyn is a saint. But up until this most recent election, Paul Manley was all by himself a third of all elected Green Party of Canada members of parliament.
00:32:25
Speaker
And there's a quote attributed to you in Jewish Insider where you said, you actively work to organize and defeat Paul Manley. Do you feel it was your mission to have this Green MP lose re-election? Yes.
00:32:46
Speaker
Was that too blunt? Yes. No, no. I want to know why. Absolutely. I did what I said I was going to do. I don't... Well, there's a bit of a... So in the Ta'i in July, you said you weren't calling for manly and at-win's defeat during the federal election. This is a quote from that Ta'i article.
00:33:06
Speaker
My intent was I wanted to challenge them in their nominations, and you said it was your right as a Green Party member to do so. But then in Jewish Insider in November, you said you actively worked to organize it. Manly, you just told me that you did it.
00:33:18
Speaker
I mean, well, that was what you told the tie. That was before the tie article, which was an entire story, which was obtained on ethically. We won't go into that, but that entire situation and my comments were given at the very outset.
00:33:37
Speaker
of the situation when I think we were trying to make things a bit better. But again, I did no political work as related to Mr. Manley or Ms. Atwin until the General Duncan. So this was in June and July. And the election was until call to August. Does that answer your question?
00:34:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I mean, you said you would work to defeat them. You didn't mention, I mean, I suppose you didn't say you were going to explicitly go against them in the federal, but then you, I mean, but the implication was that you were just going after them in the nomination saying it was your right as a Green Party member to do so, right? But then as a Green Party member, you still went and worked to defeat Paul Manley, right?
00:34:27
Speaker
But I wasn't a Green Party member in August, right? I let my membership lapse. So, you know, once the federal council had asked the enemy to repudiate me and send that to the national press, that was pretty much the end of me and the Green Party, wouldn't you say? So, no, it was, it was, they were completely different. You know, one happened at the beginning of the summer and one at the end.
00:34:50
Speaker
Fair enough. So there's an excerpt from that Jewish Insider piece that I think is worth bringing up because I think it's why we're talking today.
00:34:59
Speaker
Um, I ended up taking a bit of a screenshot from that piece and saying, Lord, give me the confidence of Noah's ads, man. And it's hard to kind of explain the entire context of this, but essentially you and David Suzuki for some reason are going back and forth. Uh, and, and you're saying, quote, I'm a young person who's one of the most active political operatives in the country on climate.
00:35:24
Speaker
I mean, come on, man. It's like a bit of a weird flex. Like you go into David Suzuki on that. Um, yeah, no, I mean, I mean, is your question about Suzuki or about the statement?
00:35:36
Speaker
Uh, I mean, do you want to talk about both? Yeah, why not both? I mean, you kind of, that's why I said, Lord, give me the confidence of Noah's Atsman because like, I mean, I don't know. I'm not involved. I'm not involved in the like climate movement, super duper deep. I mean, I pay attention, man, but like you're just a guy and like the most active political operatives in the country on climate. You saying this to David Suzuki. I mean, do you think that's a little arrogant?
00:36:03
Speaker
Um, no, I didn't say it's a Suzuki. I said it to the reporter. Okay. Yeah. But still, do you think that's a little arrogant?
Active Role in Climate Politics
00:36:11
Speaker
No, I think it's true. I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier in the call, Duncan, you know, I was the Canadian publicist for the number one show covering climate between my 26 years old and 30. I was this top aide for the leader of the Green Party. You know, I had worked extensively with, you know, Greta Thunberg's folks here in Canada in the summer before. And so, no, I don't think that's, you know, you know,
00:36:35
Speaker
And I think the fact that Ms. May and Dr. Suzuki have been spending their summer attacking me probably lends itself to what I'm sort of saying there, don't you think? I don't know. But so then that was like, okay, I read that piece and I'm like, Lord, give me the confidence of Noah's Aspen. But but I have to come back. I put an emoticon with a cry like smiley cry face, you know, it was good.
00:37:01
Speaker
And so I have to come back to this then. So do you think doing what you did to the Green Party helped like the climate movement and climate action? I think that what happened to the Green Party was a result of a grassroots government structure that cares more about
00:37:30
Speaker
you know, a foreign policy issue than it does about what should be the animating issue of the party. And so, you know, no, I mean, I think that they are now going to have to reckon with this, the party. And so I'm hoping that, and if they can't, obviously, goodbye party. They were not doing anything on climate.
00:38:01
Speaker
period, right? They weren't speaking to the issues. Mr. Manley and his chief of staff were calling me every day asking me about Benjamin Netanyahu and whether I thought he was fascist while there's an emergency in British Columbia, their home province. It makes no sense. So no, if anything on that, it was, it's the party
00:38:20
Speaker
You know, not I, and I mean it routinely, and this is a bigger conversation for another podcast, but routinely throughout my year, I'm asking everyone, should we do climate today? Should we do climate today? Let's do climate today. During the election, I'm emailing the folks I know, do climate, do climate. Why are you talking about this or this? It's the Green Party. So no, I think that, no.
00:38:44
Speaker
And to just talk briefly about Dr. Suzuki, I don't know why the fuck he is inserting himself into this situation. We'd had nothing but a distant but fine relationship previously, and there was absolutely no reason for it. So I understand maybe he
00:39:04
Speaker
Wanted to defend maybe Elizabeth his old buddy But you know, I can't mean these people who I've idolized growing up Suzuki and Elizabeth may attack me all summer very strange Duncan like really fucked up and anyway, dr. Suki has his own problems this week, so I don't want to pile on but It's very very very fucking bizarre
00:39:29
Speaker
Fair enough. So like the dominant political paradigm here in Canada is, you know, pro-Zionist, pro-Israel, like the entire Canadian political establishment is pro-Zionist, pro-Israel, but then, you know, the fifth place party, the Green Party of Canada shows up and some members of both elected and the grassroots have some criticism of Israel. And what happens?
00:40:01
Speaker
So this is in May, you're speaking. So in May, we went back and forth for a number of weeks to attempt to see if there could be some sort of reconciliation between myself and MP Atwood and MP Manly. And at a certain point, we know now, like, Janneke had just stopped communicating.
00:40:31
Speaker
And, I mean, it was widely reported, you know, so, you know, it, it accurately blew up, blew up everything that we had worked for. Everything. I mean, the party was on the rise. I mean, you could very well make the argument they had an elected a, they elected a member in frickin' Fredericton, for Christ's sake, and actually won an election, not just had someone cross the floor to them.
00:40:57
Speaker
But again, like the entire Canadian political establishment is tilted towards Israel and says whatever, like essentially supports Israel unequivocally, right? The Liberal Party, the Conservative Party, the leadership of the NDP Party, so maybe not some of the grassroots. I think Mr. Singh has been changing his position this last year though, just as a note. Fair enough, and I haven't been keeping
00:41:26
Speaker
track of every single thing. Again, not my job. It's not what I do for a living. It's not what I do in my spare time, is track about what certain politicians are saying about Israel on any given moment. But this fifth place party within Canada
00:41:43
Speaker
There is criticism Israel emanating from it and then it ends up in a smoking ruin a few months later. And I don't know what to think. You don't regret doing anything. Again, I don't give a shit about the Green Party. I think the Green Party as a political project is...
00:42:00
Speaker
I mean, I'm happy to see it crumble. And I don't think it was an effective political movement. I don't think it was a way forward for any type of meaningful climate action. I don't think really electoral politics is in and of itself a very meaningful way to challenge corporate power and capitalism, which is essentially what we have to do in order to
00:42:21
Speaker
do stuff on climate. I don't think carbon prices and endless COP meetings are going to solve anything. I don't know if I really have a question here or if I am just kind of whistling in the wind. Why don't we come back to you and your story? This story seems so odd in that not a Green Party person show up in the Green Party a few months later, the thing is a smoky pile of rubble.
Reflection on Green Party Fallout
00:42:44
Speaker
And full marks, congratulations. Would do it if I had the chance. Obviously not on this issue.
00:42:49
Speaker
But like, how do you feel? Let's end it on that. How do you feel about what happened with the Green Party? I feel proud to have stood up for Israel and the Jewish community. I feel heartbroken for anime.
00:43:14
Speaker
I feel that I want to now really engage when it comes to online hate, for example, because I feel like I've experienced, you know, just a daily sort of
00:43:31
Speaker
really frightening level of engagement from, you know, really a lot of probably grassroots Green members calling me all kinds of things, you know, threatening my life. And so that's really, that's really fucked. But at the end of the day, on balance,
00:43:48
Speaker
I'm proud to work for Annemie, I'm proud that she broke the glass ceiling, even if I'll be, you know, briefly. It was mostly a fantastic year up until the end. And I just want
00:44:05
Speaker
you know, folks to know, you know, and Canadians to know, I think they do know how wonderful Anime is and how amazing it could have been for the party. And it just completely blew up.
00:44:22
Speaker
Fair enough. That's all the time we have for today. I want to thank Noah Zatzman for joining me on the Progress Report podcast. If you like this podcast, if you want to join the 500 or so other folks who help keep this independent media project going, it is very easy. And we are in fundraising season.
00:44:37
Speaker
There is a link in the show notes. Also, you can go to theprogressreport.ca slash patrons, put in your credit card, 5, 10, $15 a month, 50, 100, whatever you can afford. Me and Jim would really appreciate it.
Closing Remarks
00:44:51
Speaker
Also, if you have any notes, thoughts, or comments, I am very easy to reach as well. I am on Twitter at, at Duncan Kinney, as Noah's Aspen well knows, and you can reach me by email at DuncanK at Progress Alberta.
00:45:02
Speaker
Thank you to Jim Story for editing. Thanks to Cosmic Family Communist for our theme. Thank you for listening, and goodbye.