Transcript
Speaker: What happens when the thing you've spent years building suddenly isn't the thing you're building anymore? For both of us, leaving the workforce was a much bigger identity shift than we expected. We didn't necessarily leave for the same reasons.
Speaker: We didn't experience it the same way. And we certainly didn't arrive on the other side with the same lessons. But somewhere along the way, we both had to wrestle with the same question.
Speaker: What makes a life meaningful when your job isn't the thing defining it? And that's what we're talking about today. We're telling the stories of how we each left the workforce, what we thought we were leaving behind, what made us finally do it, and what we found on the other side. Sometimes you don't realize how much your identity you've wrapped up in something until you have to unwrap it.
Speaker: And sometimes the biggest turns in our lives are the ones we never would have planned for ourselves. So join us as we go back to the beginning and tell you about the twists, turns, and unexpected lessons along the way. This is The Great Resignation. Welcome to Twists and Turns, confessions of lifelong BFFs.
Speaker: Two best friends who know where all the bodies are buried, metaphorically. After more than 20 years of friendship, we've survived chaos, heartbreak, answered prayers, questionable choices, and plenty of twists. We're not experts, influencers, or internet debaters. Just two friends talking honestly about faith, friendship, and God's goodness through all of it.
Speaker: Shall we pray? Yes. God, i just want to start by saying thank you for this opportunity to just unpack this time in my life and in Anne-Marie's life that was at first seen as just something really challenging and difficult.
Speaker: But through time, prayer and conversations, we have been able to realize that this is yet another way that we are able to reflect and keep things in our lives in the appropriate spaces and priorities. And I'm grateful for the lessons that you've taught me along the way.
Speaker: And just the ways that Anne-Marie has shared what she's learned, and what that's done for our friendship. And we pray for this conversation that it could be encouraging to anybody listening that if they are feeling or experiencing the same things, they are not alone. and that they remember where their source of strength should come from, and that is from you. And I just pray that you bless this conversation and those who are listening, and it's in your name that we pray.
Speaker: Amen. Amen. Here we are. Welcome, friends, to another episode of Twists and Turns, Confessions of Lifelong BFFs. I am Anne-Marie. And I'm Helena. And we are so happy to be here. i believe that by the time this is published, it will mark one year since we've started our podcast. Can you believe that? No, that, I mean, no Yeah, we we made it. Happy anniversary.
Speaker: Happy anniversary friend. Yeah. And it's, um, I mean, gosh, so many good conversations and not even just the ones that got published, just conversations that we got to have with people in our lives, conversations that we've gotten to have with our husbands who are also people in our lives, but, um,
Speaker: Just the different ways that we've been able to discuss things even with each other that have just been life-giving and beautiful. It's just been such a gift. My husband and I were listening to an episode last night because I'm editing one right now. He said, I know these stories, but to get to hear the two of you and your perspective as you unpack it with each other, there's just deeper and deeper layers that I'm getting to know more. So even the ones that are closest to us are benefiting from this and we are personally benefiting from this we've learned so much and we're just really grateful for people who listen and and and people who give glory to god as they hear it i will say your dad said probably the sweetest thing of 2026 maybe yeah and for context he knew my dad in a professional setting. but I say that. So my dad did radio and TV. He was a radio and TV personality locally where we grew up. And so he was sort of known in the community and your dad listened to him on the radio, which I thought was so funny. i forgot that.
Speaker: I know that he did, but I forgot. But he said, i love yours and Helena's podcast. And he said, your dad would be so proud. And he knew my dad. So it's, it just, it meant so much more. cause he's not just passing out compliments. And two, cause he knew my dad. And I often think of my dad when we're doing this because he did do this and and I got to be there with him for that. So just crazy how life comes full circle. Well, thanks dad for that little yeah encouragement. So sweet. So today we are starting something that's sort of an unofficially three-part series. We're just kind of examining what our role is as women and why being a woman matters, sort of, in ah in a kind of indirect way as we look at what society has told us it means and
Speaker: to be a woman and the conclusions that we've formed on our own. And please don't hear this as an indictment against um any any one position because it's not that. It's just us telling our stories as we hear a lot of the conversation and us examining, well, how did how did we personally experience these things? And so Today, we're talking about what our careers looked like.
Speaker: We both stepped away from full-time employment, and that's really going to feed into a conversation about motherhood. The two are So interestingly linked. I think that's true for a lot of moms. It looks different in practice for a lot of moms, but I think this is also true whether or not you are a wife or mother. The career part of this just can't be ignored. And these are the things that we've learned on the other side.
Speaker: and just the perspective that we have. And I think this is good to revisit it. I also hope, I don't know how big the audience might be of like either single women or just married women without children who maybe aspire to be a mom. Or not. Or not, yeah. I think the struggles and feelings that we going to attempt to unpack could either help someone in that category kind of assess where they may be but then also for somebody who is entering into motherhood as a new mom or, you know, hoping to be there soon, hopefully this could kind of like heed a warning. Like if you have these feelings in the future Like just know one, you're not alone. that It's normal. But to like catch it before it gets, yeah you know, too tangled unless like it doesn't need to be that that way. Recognize where it's coming from too. Yeah. I just hope that if somebody's like, meh, well, that's not me. And you don't know what the future holds. Right.
Speaker: ah Certainly my life looks very different than what I expected. So for sure, we're going to go back to the beginning on this and just start kind of with set the tone for what we even did. So what did you do in the working world? So for me, when I i know I've talked about in the past, the determination to graduate, to get a degree, I got a business degree and desired to have a job and a career where I was able to use what I studied. I graduated and it took a little time for me to actually land a job. I went to a job fair because I tried to go in like my senior, my last semester, my senior year. and went to a company and gave them my resume and was like, I would love to work for you and interviewed, but didn't get the job. And then i looked and they were back at this job fair. So I went back, handed them my resume again and was like, you didn't hire me, but I'd really like to work for your company. Here's my, I literally gave them my resume and left. Like I didn't go anywhere else.
Speaker: Yeah. I was like, that's where I wanted to work. Gave him my resume, got a call, ended up getting the job the second time I interviewed. So I ended up working in recruiting. That being my first job, I was thrilled to have a job at a, at a, place that was so well respected. i think that kind of put a little feather in my cap. I think that was also the intimidating piece about it. Like I wanted it, but yet I was completely terrified because I felt so unqualified to, to offer. i didn't have anything to offer, or at least I didn't think I did. Ended up moving to the city where I am now. So i was able to transfer my job because I also have an office here. supported an office in New York, got to get my feet wet in a couple different areas within the business and supporting different areas of business, which was really interesting to me because it was a whole new world of kind of seeing behind the curtain. And I did that for almost five years, not quite five years. So it sounds like to me, you were proud of a prestigious organization wanting you to work for them, even if they didn't work them the first time. Right. Right. So beyond what the job offered you monetarily, it was also giving you kind of a status, a validation of your own value? Yes. I think I wanted to know that I was worthy of a job that like that because that had, you know, being in in school, specifically a business major, you see these
Speaker: professionals coming in, you take these workshops, you do all these things. And this is like the goal. It was what I had worked towards, but also kind of felt like not entitled, but like what should be the next step. I think there was also, as I observed what you were doing, I think there was always a am I enough? Even in that role. For sure. I think I i showed that in my eagerness to be available, Yes. my willingness to sacrifice things that, you know, sleep time, whatever it was. I just wanted to prove that if they needed something, I was reliable. Yes. To not only be willing to do it, but do it well and ah in that I cared. I recognized my piece of the pie. my contribution to this part of the business operating well. Because I worked in recruiting, knew everybody in the lines of business that I supported. So it was almost like I got to help these people. And that was part of the...
Speaker: the job that I loved. Like i love talking to people. Like I like getting to hear about them personally. Like that part was really cool. Like I remember I was onboarding a guy that was moving from Boston. The weekend he was supposed to be moving was when the Boston Marathon was going on and that they had the bombing. and i Oh my gosh.
Speaker: and i was like i just want to make sure are you okay do you need more time like that was the level of care that i genuinely desire to bring to that position That these people felt this sense of security that I'm making this right career move and somebody who's in this receiving part of, you know, this arrangement cares about my well-being and feel prepared. I really thrived on being that for people because I'm very detail-oriented in that way. And so I was able to tap into that skill set that I didn't realize could be an asset to that job. yeah Just caring about people in an HR kind of setting is essential, but unfortunately not as common as you would expect. Yeah. In that time period, we were still living in the same city or we were living in the same city once again for most of it. And I remember a lot of our conversations being around the value that your superiors had in your work, even things that were not your responsibility. So you just going above and beyond to create solutions when no one was asking for it. yeah Sometimes that was well received and sometimes it wasn't.
Speaker: I remember looking at that time and listening to you and thinking, one, that's inspiring. And two, I felt sort of the nervous, anxious, underlying, am I enough? And I don't know that I would have recognized it enough to say something to you or did I, nor did I feel like I, you know, that it was any of my business. I was doing my own thing. I was like, you do you girl, it's your yeah job. Like it's not, you were asking for advice. It was just, you were just processing things. So. Yeah. And and I think too, like being in that type of role, it was something that was still so new. i needed to figure out how to be, but I had an amazing mentor who I still keep in touch with. Shout out to Amy. She recognized what you are referring to. Her and I came up with a code word that my husband and actually still use this Yeah.
Speaker: willing to say no it could be to your detriment and to the detriment of the quality of your work And you're not helping anybody. And at that point, I didn't recognize that. I thought if I said no, was perceived, you know, to being lazy. i didn't care. I'm not a team player. Thankfully, Amy being wiser and aware, saw that in me and said, hey, it's okay if you are at capacity to say so. By the way, when you get to that point, you didn't even have to explain anything. You could just simply tell me pineapples. Right. pineapples or in the adult world, I'm not available. Right. I'm not available. that's Unfortunately, i i don't have the capacity for that at the moment. That was a very needed word of advice and encouragement. For sure. I felt really proud that they saw value in what I was contributing. There were opportunities for growth, but for whatever reason, the opportunities that were presented to me that were the obvious next steps I started moving towards them, but only because I thought that I was supposed to, not because I felt this desire to do them. And not that i wouldn't find joy at in certain parts of them for sure, or that I wouldn't be good at certain parts of them. But I think that kind of intuition of like recognizing this isn't really kind of get me excited to be here and having so thankfully some sense of awareness of that I think is was helpful when I kind of ultimately recognized and was willing to admit that I was ready to step away isn't that interesting to look back on now
Speaker: and see what that was is it's like somewhere within you, you could tell what you were looking for. And this thing that you took so much pride in yeah was also not going to be what fulfilled you. it was really hard because I thought this is it. This is the goal. Studied this. I got the job. You have a much thicker file when it comes to... Spoken like a true former recruiter. Yes. You have a much more lengthy resume and tenacity behind it. We are just two different animals when it comes to our working careers.
Speaker: Yeah. So but Emory, what did you do? What did I know. I was going to say, yes. Yeah. So, I mean, i I started working really young. It's important to understand this part. The reason I started working to begin with, there's a part of me that's always looked at something and said, i could probably do that. I wonder if I could. And so but there's a natural curiosity and that was part of it. And the other part of it was a financial thing. You know, we grew up and my dad was self-employed. My parents did not talk about money troubles or anything, but I felt that
Speaker: the weight of the financial stress. I didn't want that. Right around the time you and I had met each other, maybe a year before, we moved to a different part of town that was a little bit more expensive. People were living at ah at a higher socioeconomic rate. I felt like I had to keep up with that. And so I would ask for things and I just got tired of hearing no. And so that is why I started working I started as soon as I was legally allowed to get a job that paid an hourly rate. Like I was working before that at my dad's shop. I was 14. There were two competing grocery stores and one of them that was kind of like the less preferred would hire you a year earlier the- Yes. And so as soon as I turned 14, I was on my parents to give me a ride up to that grocery store so that I could apply. And I did not stop working. So even in high school, it was like, it's fine for you to tell me no, I'll just do it myself. I had this intense sense of pride in being able to provide things for myself.
Speaker: You know, I paid for my own car insurance and my own cell phone. And I think maybe even like my own prom dress. If you've heard previous episodes, there was this hyper controlled environment that I was in and having financial resources that were mine, it gave me back some control. And I was addicted to that. I really thrived in the, you can't tell me what I can and can't do. I'm going to forge my own path. But you have also just the natural curiosity part of it too. So I was always wanting to learn more and know more. And if I would see something, like I remember as a little girl when my mom would take me to the grocery store and watching the cashiers punch all the numbers. And I was like, I want to do that someday. learned all the different produce codes. It's funny. My husband also worked at a grocery store in high school. So we will like... Are the codes still the same? Yes. Yeah. that's so funny. Cause I remember you always being like how fast you are. Anyone who's worked in a grocery store in that era is probably laughing right now. Cause you remember in high school, my junior year, I found out that you could get in the work program, which meant that half your day and half your grade was working. And I was like, yup.
Speaker: sign me up for that. I just settled into this idea of I'm in control of everything and I said yes to that. And so i think it was my senior year, my work program teacher, he would he would get different companies would come to him and ask, do you have any kids to send to us? And he sent me to one that was like, this guy was like a multi-level marketing. Like he wanted people to be on the phones and like call and be a solicitor and stuff. So I lasted 30 seconds. There's one guy and then he gets a couple guys. And then those guys get a couple guys.
Speaker: It was weirdest. not pyramid scheme or anything. But it kind of looks like a pyramid when you draw it out. Yeah. But then he found a local practice with two real estate attorneys. They needed a front desk person. my teacher referred me for that one and I got that job.
Speaker: And that was really my first exposure to real estate finance. You know, I started just as the receptionist and then they gave me various other responsibilities that they felt comfortable with. That was in high school? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yes. Why didn't I remember that? I think that was part of the time that we were fighting. Oh. Or not like super duper senior year. i ended up getting a job at a local financial institution, but the department that was based where we lived was in real estate. And it was on an interesting side of the industry. It was i was on the default side. So people who are struggling to make their mortgage payments. I was 18. mean, I'm just freshly 18. The person who referred me had some very clear, communicated ulterior motives to getting me that job, which was to keep me close to um yeah someone that they were close to. In fairness to that person, they were very confident that I was able to do the job based on their knowledge of me. Interestingly, the the woman that I interviewed with, who was who became my manager, who I'm still in contact with as well, she had been in the work program and started very young ah in the workforce too. And so we connected and and that was great. It was rewarding financially. It ended up taking me to some really crazy cool places. It took me to New York City, which was incredible. i lived in the same building as Jeremy Lin when he was the point guard for the Knicks. And it was like Linsanity.
Speaker: ah So Jeremy Lin is a retired basketball player. It's a sad story of how it all kind of fizzled out. But at the time, he was a point guard. He was at his prime. Knicks. And he was the guy. Literally, Helena, I would walk into my building and there were girls waiting outside because they knew he lived there.
Speaker: gosh. And they were like just waiting to get a picture or say hello or whatever. Like I watched him walk in with his parents. Whatever they were doing, they were there to see him clearly. oh my gosh. I made some of the greatest friends on that project. Literally these two girls were dear friends at the time. As I was, when I left that project, cause it was about nine months. Like when I left, we stood out in the street and just cried before my taxi came to pick me up. Cause we just, we, we had such a great time together. I remember sitting in this apartment that I would have never been able to afford.
Speaker: you know, it was corporate housing, so i wasn't paying for it. And I remember looking out at the city. There was a part of me that was like, once again, i control this. It's me. It just felt like that narrative just kept getting reinforced. I worked for a different lender and I ended up managing basically two teams. Like they they gave me a team that was two times the size that you're supposed to have. And they were, you know, kind of like a hodgepodge of various employees that had had really been through the ringer. And so it was like, I want to say this carefully because I have deep respect for each one of these people and saw...
Speaker: each one of their potential. You know, it was like marked as sort of underperforming. But like when you looked at why it was like, yeah, because no one has ever given them proper training. Like it's not that they can't.
Speaker: It's that they can't with the tools that you haven't given them. You know, right. I gave all that I had to that and got a lot of respect for that. What it gave me besides a paycheck, and it was a great paycheck and I'm super thankful for it, is it gave me a sense of validation.
Speaker: that i'm I'm the one. i I was always the one that people came to when they couldn't figure something out. was like, just ask Anne-Marie. And that was even true, you know, when I did finally step away from corporate employment.
Speaker: And even when I left, you know, they were like, you know, in our team meetings, we're still like, what would Anne Marie do And there, you know, there is this sense of like, I got it. I'm going to figure it out, which is part the natural curiosity and part this, I come to find lie of you look after yourself. We both really had a sense of pride in what we did and we cared about what we did. And I think even in the moment, while we were never in the same industry, except for a restaurant,
Speaker: Which, you know, we still took pride in what we did. we did. I do feel like I recognized that was something that I saw in you, you know, before I started working. And that was something that I was like, oh, that is an obvious way to go about working is to care and do it well. Yeah. So I think while our professional careers did not look the same, that we could very easily connect on, that it wasn't an option to just kind of be laissez-faire about what we were doing because it had our name attached to it, which meant that we cared and it was going to be done to the best of our ability. Yeah, you're right. It looked very different. I think you were much more organized than I was or my organization was not obvious, as obvious as yours. But I agree. If we could just have Anne-Marie from the smack dab middle of your time in New York, like girl was on a mission because she was... Like just at a whole nother level. And I was so jealous because I was in my senior year of college and I just was not there. It's a very common dream to say going to school, especially in business. There's so many opportunities in New York with the, you know, world of finance or just business in general. That's a very natural landing spot for people professionally. If we could kind of channel that Anne-Marie in that moment in time what do you think her response to kind of getting a ah glimpse of your life now would be little Anne-Marie and all of her many pencil skirts at that time would have said I just think she would look at me and go how can you be so free and There'd also be just sort of a disgust for like, have some have some self-respect. Don't you want people to know you're valuable? You know, like I think there was so much that I wrapped up in my identity that wasn't actually my identity.
Speaker: You know, if I had, it it did happen, you know, I left that site and nobody cared. You know, it was like people cared, obviously the human, the humanity of people cared, but I was just so deceived to think that my value was more than it was in those places.
Speaker: And in particular, i think if, I think if i that version of me saw me now, And just the ways that I prioritize things now, she just wouldn't understand. She'd be like, right what what happened? Like i know like we were upwardly mobile. The capacity was not there. She had no value for the eternally valuable things. Some eternally valuable things I definitely had an awareness and a value of, but marriage, like being a wife and motherhood, like being, I had no desire to be a mother.
Speaker: I had no interest whatsoever in ever having children. I was like, that's somebody, in fact, while I was in New York, ah one of the times that I was flying home, you know this story, don't you? I know. i know exactly where you're going.
Speaker: I would like to personally apologize to this man whose name I don't know um and who you probably will never hear this. But one time, you know, they would fly me back to my hometown on that project every weekend. And I took advantage of that because at that time, my dad was not well.
Speaker: On one flight, this poor, sweet young man was sitting next to me by himself with... a very small child, like four months, maybe it was a a tiny baby. Like he was with a baby. i sat next to him and I, when I sat down, I was immediately infuriated. I was like, and, and some of that was fair. It was like, I had a really long week and I just, I use these flights to decompress. i don't want to talk to anyone. I definitely don't want a screaming, crying baby next to me, you know?
Speaker: um So there was part of that, but there was also a, this is your problem, not mine. And this poor man obviously was struggling. He was a new father. he did not have the child's mother with him.
Speaker: and he was looking to me for help. And I was like, first of all, I wouldn't have known what to do. But second of all, I was like, how in my mind, I didn't say these words, but it was like, how dare you think I'm going to help you? This is your responsibility. You brought this child into the world. you figure brought this on yourself. Seriously. It was like, you wanted to be a dad. So you're up batter, go swing, you know, like, and don't bother me with your problems. Cause it's not my problem. which is so cringe to think about now, like as a mother and and just having a heart for children. But at the time it was like, right I don't want nothing to do with anybody's kids.
Speaker: And I definitely don't want my own. You don't know until you know, you know? Yeah. What about you? It's so interesting because from my perspective, as I was watching that version of you, i could see the ways that you were resisting your natural abilities because you were pursuing something and trying to make it fit. But I am curious to know now what that version, if we could bring her in what would she say about you? What would she think? Yeah. Well, as you know you were talking, it was just making me recognize through time and experience, I have been able to gain the ability to understand, call it wisdom, age, whatever. i don't want to be so bold as to say I'm like...
Speaker: this super wise soul. Any problem that I would have had with looking at my life today at that point, I would just be like, you don't even know, sit down, you know? true.
Speaker: so true Just pat her on the head. Drink your juice, baby. Yeah, drink your juice, boo. Like you don't even know you're angry about. Like you are so angry and offended because you are so naive. I think I probably would have been up in arms and been like, what are you doing? You're caving in to what society has told you to do. That's what I was wondering is if she would have looked at you and been like, you gave up. Right. Yeah, you did.
Speaker: You gave up. You kind of fell for it. You drank the Kool-Aid. That kind of ties into why you did leave. Right. Why did you finally decide to step away?
Speaker: There was a couple, you know, things that kind of came into play. My family grew unexpectedly. I decided it was the best thing financially for our family to continue to still work at some capacity. You know, we were saving for our house. I was able to make an arrangement to still work. from home, I told them I would have my daughter at home with me. And I did that for about a year and a half. And this is pre-COVID, obviously. This is pre-COVID. That was such a privilege if your employer would allow you to do that. Absolutely. Yes. For people to be allowed to exclusively work for from home, like did not have a routine to be in the office on a weekly basis at all. And then on top of that slide in I'm going to keep my child with me and be limited on my availability for phone calls. And they let me do it. That gave an extra layer of pressure to perform. I really needed to show that I was capable of
Speaker: producing. It got to a point where she was getting older. The part of hr that I was working for was going to kind of break away and do something different. It was kind of a ah time where I could easily say,
Speaker: I'm going to not move on to this next assignment. I'm going to call it quits right here. Kind of kept everything at a nice clean break professionally, but then it was a very good time for me personally. But I still was digging my heels. I really had a lot of confusion around identity in that space because I was still a new mom, still a new wife,
Speaker: You know, I had only been married not even three years. Like it had just been three years when I quit my job. Not a ton of time professionally. You know, it only been just about five years. And I felt like I was really supposed to be, i should be gaining momentum professionally, right? Like that's when you've kind of gotten some... experience under your belt and you're kind of more capable to start running. I was kind of being tugged in three different directions and not knowing enough to say which one was supposed to be priority at what time. You and I have had several conversations about just the genuine heartache I felt after And the guilt, confusion. I mean, there were so many emotions I was feeling and didn't understand and why. and even my husband would say like, why? This is what we always said. Poor guy. He was like, I don't know. Like I thought this is what you, but you said it was the beginning for me of a lot of soul searching.
Speaker: That was very, very necessary. You know, I've talked about a book that I read during that time that was very impactful. There was a quote that just kind of hit me and my mind just kind of started spiraling. I had a very Anne-Marie moment, I would like to say. And I took a moment and I wrote down my thought just to kind of share the way that these words landed for me years later after hearing them again. So the book that i read is a Woman's Place and it is by Caitlin Beattie. She radically changed the way that i started thinking about work. And it says, provision doesn't always come on our timetable, but God delights in giving his children good gifts. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: to do i wrote when i was sitting in the struggle of not working and only being a stay-at home mom it ripped open my insecurity of needing to feel validation through a job and to feel important. I needed that job to tell me that I was smart enough and I was able. I had felt my whole life up until that point that the expectation of my life and all that I'm capable of was to do the bare minimum. Whether I was told that or came to it on my own, I'm unsure.
Speaker: QL Woods.
Speaker: like it's hard What, like it's hard? All while taking on this idea of Bible study much more seriously because i felt at that time i was still a bit ignorant. So to leave the job I clung to in order to utilize the degree I worked so hard for, also to prove something, and provide challenges where I could gain valuable experience, I felt like something was being stolen from me. I was being pushed forever.
Speaker: back down. Because it was difficult for me to balance everything, i felt like the fears of inadequacy had to be true. But of course, in God's timing, he revealed and is still revealing that I am right where I should be. i am so incredibly grateful that because I'm not working, I have the capacity to grow in relationship with the Lord in ways I never could have imagined. The desires for validation never went away, but through obedience to him, I am validated by my creator because I am rightly focused on why I do what I do and who I do it for. The fulfillment I always was searching for has space to grow. And I don't know if I will ever go back to a paying job. What I do know is if I do, i will be able to do so with much more joy. I remember all those conversations. Yeah. And it's so funny because when you were wrestling with that, I was still very much in the working world and very much, you know, upwardly mobile in my career and doing all the things and pursuing all of that. But I remember thinking like, just let it go. let it go, Helena, like you are, you are made for something so beautiful that you're resisting. Why would you resist the ways that God made you? Like you're not merely a housewife or merely a mother. Like, and I may have said this at the time, I can't remember, but it was like, I wish I could do those things because I didn't feel like I could. The irony that I was,
Speaker: could preach it to you. No problem. Right. I couldn't see it for myself. It was like, just let it go. Like it doesn't matter. It doesn't definitely doesn't matter as much as you think it does right now. I don't know if I said this out loud to you or not at the time, but it was always like, it's just not who you are. Like you could do this excellently. That's not a question. You can do these other things really excellently better than most people that are so life-giving. Right. I remember you telling me the story of you'd be sitting at your laptop. Your daughter would come up to you and be tugging at you and saying like, will you play with me?
Speaker: And you were like, I can't, I can't, you know, I can't do that right now. And that was one of the things I think that was helped you kind of go in that direction was like, i I actually can't do all of these things. But I also remember that I watched you balance it pretty incredibly. So right, literally, as I was coming home from our hometown, after my dad passed away, i got like violent food poisoning. Oh, gosh, yes, I remember this. And your husband came and got me. this was hilarious.
Speaker: Sidebar. And I was like keeled over in my bed and was like, never tell this story to my future husband. It's like, no problem. You just did it. Yeah. He knows it now. And you nursed me back to health.
Speaker: I just laid in your guest room, like just in total agony and listened to you on your conference calls and taking care of your daughter, like with joy and gladness. And I remember, yes, as you're like crushing up aspirin to put in my applesauce so that I could get some pain relief from what was going on. I want you to know like you did do those things excellently.
Speaker: Obviously, you know this, it was the right call for you to step away from that. But at the same time, like you were, you were doing those things well. Mom guilt is so true for everybody, but like, I know your daughter always felt happy and safe and secure, even though, you know, there were times that she, which, you know, builds resilience. Like she doesn't get everything she wants. You can't always play with mom. There's a bluey episode about that. It's fine. like But I think you also kind of articulated something that I had never really thought before.
Speaker: When you were mentioning the autonomy that working and making your own money provided you, we're so different. Our situations and circumstances were very different. I don't think I recognized that my part of my drive was to have that same freedom. Part of my resistance was it felt like I was handing over the control to somebody else. yeah and And you are. you were. Yeah. And if we're further proving the point, like the control is never mine anyways. So it needed the alignment to begin with.
Speaker: But because specifically financially, I was terrified to not have some level of contribution out of fear that I would no longer have my seat at the table. Yeah. And my husband never gave me reason, you know, in my marriage to say like, oh, well if I stop working, then I no longer get to have this conversation. But I think at least part of that was that fear of I've worked so hard to be able to have this Freedom. This illusion of freedom. It was like, I finally got it and then I had to give it away. It felt like.
Speaker: That was a big part of it for me was always needing an exit plan. You know, there's, think trauma does that to you. when You start to look for the exits in the room all the time. Yeah. I always had that. There were things that set me up for when I finally made that decision. One of them was premarital counseling. So, you know, I met my husband later in life. That's probably all relative. But to me, it felt like I was getting married later than I had hoped. Premarital counseling was helpful to just remind me or to reestablish like what marriage is because I walked into that relationship with one more life experience. I mean, I lived Right.
Speaker: go into a marriage saying i don't need you right Like, y'all mary yeah, marry you, but I don't need you. Right. It's true that you can function on your own, but there's a reason God said it's not good for man to be alone.
Speaker: Right. It's because it's not good for man to be alone. You need community. In marriage, you need your community is each other, first and foremost. What was demonstrated to me in the premarital counseling, it was just like, you know, just fundamental, like here's what God designed marriage to be. And it reminded me that, you know, this is a partnership and it's a 5149 partnership, not because he's more valuable than me, but because he's responsible for shepherding this relationship and he will answer to God for that. that helped me to want to help him, you know, like recognizing the responsibility that he has. It also took marrying the right person. If you have someone who's predisposed to expecting a subservient, just compliant, disregarding, you know, the other person and exploiting that person, then that doesn't work. I knew I had the respect of my husband before I entered into this relationship. And if I hadn't, it
Speaker: wouldn't have happened. So what happened is i sort of became like a sort of surrogate mother to someone dear to me that's in my family. So one of our relatives who was in high school at the time moved in with my husband and i It was unexpected for everyone, um you know, and it happened through tragedy. and And that was that was really hard. I was working remotely at that time. The person that i reported to from where I stood didn't have great boundaries around work and life And because there is an awareness that I'm always accessible. Like I have the messaging app on my phone and my laptop is in the other room, you know? So it's like, if you're home, can we talk about this real quick? And it was like, there just wasn't like a, you know, but it's like, there is no real quick and in what we were doing anyway. And so i was working a lot. There were times that I would not get up from my chair hours.
Speaker: hours and hours, like not even to use the restroom. It was just like there were too many things happening at once. And so I recognized as this child was in my home processing their own life experience that was really hard, I was not going to be able to to love them well and still hang on to this all-consuming position. And so my husband and I talked about it and we made the decision together that I would step away from my job. I had been there for many years. I really enjoyed that job. it was very rewarding for so many different reasons, but it was very clear that it was time to step away so that I could be present for something that was eternally valuable. Just the practical things like transporting, you know, a person, you know, taking them, picking, dropping them up and often picking them up from all of their various activities and just being present for just the day to day that comes with school, just paying attention and being a good shepherd of a person as they are coming into life and You just don't know that until you're in it. But that also meant I was completely dependent on my husband financially, which was, you know, this is the only time in my life that I don't have an exit strategy, you know, and and the Lord has done a great work in my heart, you know, to recognize like a trauma response. And it's appropriate and it serves you well in a certain moment, but also like that's not the way to live your life. You can't hold everybody else accountable for something that somebody else that's not them did, you know? And I didn't ever have a question about being financially dependent on my husband, but I, you know, that was a complete 180 from the way that I had always lived my life. It became apparent very quickly how little,
Speaker: that title and that salary and that position actually mattered. Like when i looked around at the eternal things, it was like, I don't want to get to the end of my life and the eulogy be you know what?
Speaker: She loved real estate finance. My last day was a Monday and I literally was working. I was so hoping they were going to let me go early because sometimes that happens. Like I gave them three weeks notice, not to because I knew I was going to catch them off guard. I literally was working on my laptop until they cut my access off. So you were like, click save.
Speaker: Off? Yes. Wow. That was on a Monday. We moved houses oh yeah that Saturday. And the next day was Easter, interestingly. And I found out that day that I was pregnant. Whoa. Which that's, stay tuned. There's a whole story behind there, but... You know, you made me think of something as you were kind of talking about the realization for your capacity once you stepped away. Because like clearly I had that same realization for my child when I stepped away because you could feel it. like Yeah, you have space to notice now, don't you? Right. Well, it's like you felt like the... inability to be something for everybody at every moment during the day. i don't even know that I would have even recognized what my life would or could have looked like if I saw what it is now. I didn't have an example to say, hey, this is how you can not have a real job And be very intentional with your time and resources and still do important work. It might have taken me a little bit longer to get to where I am today because I didn't know what that was supposed to look like, nor did I have just a weak muscle to kind of... get back into shape. Like I had to kind of create that roadmap for myself. John and I talk about this with our girls. We never want them to wonder, is it going to be good enough on paper? Is it, you know, going to make me feel fulfilled because I don't know what that looks like. Like we want them to understand where their source of of purpose should come from. So these other things, so it doesn't take them as long Hopefully as it did for me to make that realization. It's the celebrating the eternal things.
Speaker: You know, it's modeling that, that it's like what in our lives, like for our kids, what do they see us celebrating? What do they see us prioritizing? Because they're going to learn from that what's important. They'll cling to that as they start to make those decisions career-wise, whether they choose to have a career or not. you know like Maybe they meet someone young and decide to just get married and have children and never pursue a career. What's the mindset and the attitude if that's the case? Or maybe they go into ministry and they never get married or have children. Maybe they yeah hu that is maybe they never get married or have children and they have a career for their entire life and they love people well.
Speaker: right The heart behind it is the eternal. That's the priority. you know And that's the misconception too when people hear bear fruit, multiply. like what That doesn't sound right. Be fruitful and multiply? Thank you. i don't bear You know that guy that said that thing in Genesis? Be fruitful and multiply.
Speaker: go That doesn't mean go go make a bunch of babies. like i think Well, it did it did in that moment, but it's that but that was his command to Adam and Eve. You can still look back on certain people's lives who do not have children and see evidence of fruit. Yes. That to me is something that... Not every church, but a lot of communities are are maybe kind of driving home this expectation, maybe unintentionally, maybe intentionally, kind of putting this pressure. If it's not now, it's never.
Speaker: That was part of my confusion. Yeah. Where you live now, I felt that so strongly in yeah in the community that I was in when I was living where you are. Yes. That my singleness was a sickness.
Speaker: That it was like, yeah what's wrong with her? Bless your heart. You're single. Oh, she's single. oh what happened? yeah I'm single because there's a whole bunch of jack wagons out here who aren't marriage material and I'm trying to be obedient to the Lord and I'm fumbling around trying to decide, am I being too picky or is this person really not a good idea? Like that's why I'm single. And it's also just this like slippery slope of...
Speaker: Like why tell a woman that her value lies in whether or not she's married and or a mother yeah because you're setting her up to feel like she's lesser than. It's a tricky thing because it's like the lie is so powerful because there's enough truth in it.
Speaker: Marriage is a good thing to be desired. Parent has a good thing to be desired, but it doesn't mean that it's the only thing we should encourage our children in marriage. Like this is a good thing, but it is okay. i think you like, you nailed it though. I think at the end of the day, this comes down to What are we idolizing in our lives at any given stage? i have witnessed motherhood and people's children's being an idol because however they learned, it's from you. So it's kind of like,
Speaker: people get that in their mind and it's like, God forbid their child falls out a line. It's like, stop doing that to your kids. Well, again there's enough truth in that lie. There's so much love that cannot be described or adequately articulated that comes from particularly motherhood, but parenthood in general. Like there's a love deeper and wider and unique that comes in parenthood. It's easy to take that truth and turn it into an idol. I've never felt love the way that I have for the children that I've raised. It's not just, I'll walk through fire for you. I'll do anything. It is the love that God has for us. Like I believe so strongly that he gave us this relationship, parent and child, so that we could have just a taste of what it feels like for God to have unconditional love for us. Like, I just love you. I just do because I do. The idolatry comes when you're constantly putting that above the Lord. Right. You cannot elevate the gift above the giver and expect to experience the fullness of the gift. Yeah.
Speaker: It works in the opposite way. For you, i know there was some initial fear. What do i do But where was the point that it finally like or ah has it, you know, where is the point that it finally started to kind of sink in like on the other side of it? Like, what have you learned? What have you seen? What do you know now that you didn't know then? I wish I knew there were ways to not feel so lonely because I think the loneliest I ever felt was when my babies were babies. Yes. It's really hard to leave the house when there's so much that needs to be done while there's such a schedule. You have like, you know, one thing goes out of place and like your whole day is destroyed. So like, I really struggled with that. And yeah I, you know, come to find out just because of the way my brain works, that was times a million. It felt like just the level of angst that I felt around that. It started to take a turn for me when my kids were able to be in school and preschool, whether it was two days a week, three, and then kind of like, obviously, went to five days a week because I was able to find things to do without them that were fulfilling and allowed me to feel this sense of self again. it was really good for me to lean into that. That was the time when I started going to a women's Bible study where I started finding that community. was
Speaker: really comforting space to find myself because I'm growing in knowledge of the Lord. I'm growing in relationship. My faith is just becoming something I didn't know I was capable of all while I'm experiencing the church and the community in a way that is allowing me to feel seen and heard and supported. When that all started to kind of happen and happen consistently, I really started to understand things better. What I started to recognize walking away was, okay, I made this awesome salary, but at the same time, i was exchanging my time for that. You know, you end up just outsourcing so many different things that So for me, it was deeply appreciating the value of time. So I lost a salary, but I gained time that I could then invest in the people in my household. Just kind of, I think what you're saying, like it's you got the time back and then you got to use that time in ways that
Speaker: grew you and ultimately made you better for your family to be able to pour into them and administer to them and to love them well. As you come to the end of this and we kind of look back on it, like what are final thoughts about stepping away and the place you are now and and how that feels and trying not to sound cliche here, but like, I do just feel really grateful. I don't think without kind of wrestling with all these fears and just things that I just thought were that aren't, I don't think that I could have truly appreciated where I am today. Like even just yesterday, i was able to provide a meal on a meal train and the person who was receiving it is going through treatments for breast cancer.
Speaker: And it was also my anniversary. And so she's like, thank you. and And my child told her so. So she was like, thank you so much for my meal on top of it being your anniversary, by the way. and And to me, like one, it didn't even cross my mind. that i mean, it was just, you know, it was a Monday. But at the same time, it was like, I say these things and I think it is truly felt. And I told her, i said, it is my genuine privilege to get to reciprocate this because it was provided to me literally under the same circumstances.
Speaker: That is what for me, it was getting to the point of recognizing that. If I would stop resisting, I could feel the joy in doing the things that I am good at and that I just want to do They're not as meaningless as I was trying to convince myself. Yeah, they're not meaningless at all.
Speaker: They're really meaningful. I thought that for something to be worthwhile, like I had to really struggle at it because that meant that i I cared. That is the complete opposite of God's design for your or desire for your life. It's like he gave you gifts so that things will be enjoyable for you to do.
Speaker: for his glory. Just to to punctuate that, nobody needs to tell us who we are and who we should be except for the one who made us. And we recognize the ways that we kind of were listening to voices, maybe sometimes well-meaning and and sometimes just misinformed, but certainly also a common enemy that you know was trying to divert our path. But the reality is God gets to tell me who he made me to be. And I get to trust him because he's trustworthy. For a period in our lives, that was in the working world. But that was not our identity ever, nor will it ever be. Our identity is Daughters of the King. And that's really the the conclusion of the great resignation is that in letting go of something, we gained so many things. We got there different ways.
Speaker: um But we got there and we're here. And I think we're unified in the perspective because God is the same. And so it's cool to look at two very different people who are wired very differently. Motherhood is not easy for me.
Speaker: And keeping a home is not easy for me. And supporting my husband as his wife in the daily tasks doesn't come as naturally. Keeping a calendar and all of that stuff is not my whatever. But this is the place that God has called me to be right now. And nobody gets to tell me other than him. Amen. We're so thankful, friends, that you have joined us for this episode of Twists and Turns. If it benefits, inspires, or otherwise blesses you, we give all glory to God.
Speaker: As always, this is our love letter to God. And so that's all we're doing is just telling his story through our stories and bearing witness to that in our lives. Stay tuned for the next part of this sort of mini series that we're doing where we're going to talk about our motherhood journeys, each one of us, as different as our leaving the workforce stories were. Our motherhood journeys were so much more different, yeah even more different than that. Thanks for listening. Share this with a friend if you think that it would benefit them or share it with anyone. Like it or comment on it ah because the engagement helps people that you don't even know get exposed to this content. Thanks for coming along. We'll see you next time.
Speaker: Bye, guys.
