Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 4: Anne-Marie's Turn
100 Plays5 months ago
Helena and Anne-Marie take listeners through the defining moments of Anne-Marie's faith journey—from a complicated church upbringing to the turning points that changed her life. This conversation explores how belief can both wound and heal, and how Jesus met them both in the middle of it all.
Listener note: this episode discusses spiritual abuse and may be sensitive for some listeners.
Recommended
Transcript
Opening Prayer and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Shall we pray? Yes. Okay. God, um we just want to first say thank you for this really exciting opportunity to, um to be in this room together, um, to talk about you at the center of our conversation. We just pray that you glorified today. um I pray for Anne-Marie as we are going through today's conversation. i pray that you remind her of your presence and your comfort and your love for her.
00:00:39
Speaker
And I also pray for anybody who may be listening to this episode that any of Um, these things that we're discussing may resonate with them. Um, and I pray that through our conversation, um they are turned back to you and remember who you are and how much you love them. Um, and I just pray that we can still laugh and enjoy this conversation as we always do. and at the end of the day, we bring you all the glory and all the thanks and it's in your name that we pray.
00:01:16
Speaker
Amen. Amen. Well. Here we are, twists and turns in the studio. So for those of you who are maybe hearing this episode for the first time, we want to start off by saying twists and turns. So we are two BFFs for over 20 years who have seen it all and lived it all alongside each other, despite differences and very different backgrounds and life paths. So the story is part victory lap. and part witness we know where all the bodies are buried in each other's lives and while our lives look pretty beaver cleaver now that is nowhere near where they started for either of us we are grateful believers in jesus christ we are students of the word best friends for over two decades bearing witness to one another's lives and god's goodness in our lives we are not theologians apologetics
00:02:16
Speaker
politicians and just going to give the disclaimer if anybody's looking for a fight we are not here for any of those shenanigans so um with that being said we are going to um get started and let us just also say again we are here together in the same room Which is so unusual. This is
Anne-Marie's Church Upbringing
00:02:40
Speaker
unusual. it's it's It's been really fun to record and talk and have these conversations. And so when the opportunity presented itself for me to come and visit, it was an obvious next step to say, well, clearly we're going to record something so that we can yeah in the same room and
00:03:02
Speaker
have as much fun as we do in person. So here we are. And let's also just point out that we have something going on here. So Christmas came early. Yeah. Yeah. Drove up from the airport and she had an entire check bag full of gifts. So maybe you can consolidate on the way home.
00:03:24
Speaker
Oh, gosh. I was actually thinking about that. I'm pretty sure I could put my carry-on inside my checked bag along with everything else and just be perfectly fine. There you go.
00:03:35
Speaker
I know the last episode, we kind of left everybody off with the disclaimer that we were going to talk about some things today. We're going to get into some subject matter that you may or may not have been super excited to talk about, but really felt it necessary to share your story, to share your experience.
00:03:59
Speaker
We know it's not going to be easy, but we, our hope is that it's going to help other people along in their situation should they have anything, any similar experiences. So today we're going to talk about kind of the church environment that Anne-Marie grew up in and what it was and how it impacted her. um So kind of set us up and let us kind of get an idea of like what the perspective is that we're going to be from your perspective, what we're going to be discussing. Hopefully we haven't lost too many people yet, you know, with that, because I do think you hear that and it's like, cool, you either grew up in church or you didn't. And that may not seem like a terribly relevant conversation. conversation to have. um There's pretty specific reasons why we felt like this was a relevant conversation to have now as we're kind of laying the foundation for who we are. So whereas, you know, Helena, we really felt like it was important to share experience
00:05:04
Speaker
experience with cancer because I do think that gives more weight to your words when you're talking about the value of your life and the things that you delight in that may seem simple or irrelevant to other people. And it's such a huge, I mean, your life is can market in pre-cancer and post-cancer. And so for me, this is that.
00:05:26
Speaker
For a lot of people, their experience in church hopefully is gonna be very different than what mine was, but that was such a foundational part of my upbringing and an all-consuming part of my upbringing. And so that's really what we're talking about here is this is um a very extreme example, unfortunately, of what spiritual abuse looks like, but it is not anywhere near an original story. And so that's a big part of it of like the why of doing this episode. One, giving you the foundational understanding of the position that I come from when I say what I say.
00:06:09
Speaker
And then two, the longer that I live, the more that I talk to people. you know, I really thought like my family had a bad experience.
00:06:19
Speaker
And the more people that I meet and whether they're currently attending church or whether they just have a history with that, it's like, wow, this is... This is really rampant. It's not exclusive to one organization. It's not exclusive to even one religion. But this is, you know, for for me as a Christian, when I look at Christianity, this is rampant. And it benefits all of Christianity to recognize the places that we are not being obedient to God.
00:06:49
Speaker
trusting him with our stories and with other people's
Father's Wisdom and Life Timeline
00:06:52
Speaker
stories. And it also hopefully will be maybe healing or insightful for for people who who I know have experienced unfortunately similar things, maybe a different flavor of the same thing, but um certainly something similar as well. And so that's really why we're even having this conversation.
00:07:12
Speaker
There are going to be some parts of this I know that will be difficult to relate to, hopefully. But there will be these common threads of like, well, I wasn't treated that way, but I did have a similar perspective of maybe... the church or the Bible or who God was. And that impacted me in a similar way. And maybe I had never really even made that connection before. That's a great kind of outline of how we're going to be going through this conversation. If there's one of those pieces that you really hope that people focus on, or if there's one thing that you hope people take away from this conversation, what would that be?
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, when we were talking about that question, immediately what popped in my mind. So 10 years ago, my dad passed away sort of quickly, not as not as abruptly as your mom, but um quickly.
00:08:03
Speaker
And my mom asked him a question toward the end when when we we really thought he was going to live, um but he was going into surgery and she asked him like, what do you want your kids to know? Like, what are the things that you want to tell your kids? And what he said was, i love you.
00:08:21
Speaker
Seek the kingdom first. Don't blame God for what man does. Those are the things that I hope that if you hear nothing else, yeah I hope you hear those things. You are loved. I love you. um Seek the kingdom first and don't blame God for what man does. Yeah. I mean, i almost feel like that's like full stop. Yeah. We can be done. It's like the shortest podcast ever. yeah And I just love that.
00:08:47
Speaker
It's just I forgot. i do remember you telling me that. Yeah. So give us a little bit of an idea of like how long did this experience last for you Where did it kind of begin? Yeah, timeline flyover I think is helpful. wanna just say we're we're not gonna get into specifics of ah what church.
00:09:08
Speaker
Again, this is rampant. This is not exclusive to one organization. So when you hear some ambiguity, it is intentional. It's intentional because What I've noticed in these conversations is the specifics create noise that really take away from what's important about this. And so it is an intentional thing, and it's not to be weird or evasive. It literally is is because we understand the core of this story. So I do want to give just a flyover so that you understand, like like you said, gosh, how long this lasted. So I was born into this church in the South um near where Helena and I grew up. My parents had met and married in a in a specific church. About the time I was a year old, that church was falling apart. There were some practices that were happening, particularly by the lead pastor, that were dangerous, harmful to himself and others, and um sinful.
00:10:03
Speaker
And biblically speaking should have been addressed and legally speaking should have been addressed publicly. And they were not. And so one of the leaders that had been mentored in that church had moved up to the Northeast. My dad recognizing and confronting leadership with what was going on down South in our church and and saying, what are we you know how are what are we going to do about this? um how Why are we not confronting this? um And not getting ah ah any kind of a satisfactory answer, but more of a, we can't we can't do that because it would tear the church apart. So my dad, having having at least a baseline understanding of ah who God is and how you you don't just ignore those things and it go well, it could not condone or participate in that any further. And so he reached out to this contact that we had That person was leading a church up in the Northeast at that point and said, come and be here.
00:11:00
Speaker
And so we moved from down South up to the Northeast. And um we were there from the time I was about a year until just before I turned five. The church was our life. So all of our friends All of our everything, all of our activities, everything was based around the church, and that would continue. My dad at some point while we were up in the Northeast got laid off, and he was on unemployment for a year, for a solid year. so you know i was I was little. My brothers were a little bit older than me, but you know he had a family to provide for. And so he had this stack, this binder of cover letters, of resumes that he literally sent out every single day for a year. I went through them and looked at all the dates that he typed out and whatever, and he could not find a job.
00:11:52
Speaker
And so he had a lot of connections back down south and was offered a job. And he took that job. And so we'll get in, I'll get into a little more of those specifics, but he took the job so because he had to feed his kids. And so we moved back down South, kind of close to where we had been, where you and I eventually met and grew up together. So my whole upbringing was down South in inate an affiliated church to the one that was in the Northeast, because they had church presence in most major metropolitan cities at that point. It had really exploded at that time. And so they had a lot of church plants, but they were all reporting up to this one kind of main
Separation from the Church
00:12:33
Speaker
church. So about the time that I met you, that I really started to question things for various reasons that we'll get into.
00:12:42
Speaker
Shortly after you and I met, maybe the next school year, I separated from that church, which as a as a child separating from that church just meant you had to still go, but you no one could talk to you. because We'll get into it. and I wonder if people are already like, what?
00:13:04
Speaker
I'm getting there, bear with us. So just trying to do a timeline first so you guys get the idea of like, you know, this went on. um So I separated from it, still being a minor and still under my parents' roof. I made a deal with them because I did not want to attend the services anymore, but I had a job at that point, as I think people who've been following along know. And so what I said to them was, if your concern is where I will be on a Sunday morning, I commit to you that I will work every single Sunday morning until I turn 18. And if you ever want to call up to the grocery store and um verify that I'm there, you can do that. And they thought about it and they were like, okay.
00:13:46
Speaker
And so that's how I was able to physically separate from the church and still be under my parents' roof. And then once I turned 18, obviously I had freedom to do whatever I wanted. just because of the the foundation that was laid within that organization and and my worldview, 18 mid-20s was pretty tumultuous.
00:14:10
Speaker
I will say candidly, i got married to a former member of the church as well. That marriage ended in a divorce for so many reasons, not um not a good situation. But just just the idea in my mind of, well, no one else is going to understand me because no one has been through this. But like this person will, obviously, because they lived it, which is not a reason to get married. It's just not. um And that was in that 18 to whatever, 22, 23 range.
00:14:45
Speaker
But I put these in the notes as the wild years because they were wild. Like they really were just I there are several moments in there where I was really separated from organized religion almost entirely, certainly still praying, but rejecting religion.
00:15:01
Speaker
the organized religion piece pretty strongly, not a relationship with God, but the the organized piece. I just, whatever I was curious about, I pursued that. So thankfully, that didn't involve things that would have killed me because I would have not survived. if you know I mean, I just went kind of fully in the direction of whatever i had been really shielded and um sheltered from before that. And so and you got to experience some of that. Thanks for sticking around. And then there's some stories there, but it's so many stories. Well, another episode. Another episode. I mean, we got lots of time. We're going to get into it. But then by the time I came home, my parents had moved on
00:15:46
Speaker
mercifully to a different church, which was monumental for reasons that we'll get into. that was not a That was a very, very difficult, painstaking decision for them. And the church that they had joined had these two pastors that I will forever be thankful for. So obviously, no church loves a divorce, but certainly um this church it was notorious for treating the those with that particular issue less than kindly, less than kindly, we'll go with that, less than kindly and and without much logic or consideration of other people's humanity.
00:16:28
Speaker
It was like more of a, it was like a worse sin. Yeah. It was it yeah maybe like a hierarchy of wrongdoing. Yeah, it's almost like there's scarlet letter. Yes, absolutely a scarlet letter. And i mean, you didn't have a lot of options. It was like you either stay single or you go reconcile with this person, which was not an option. It was very just legalistic. And so you think, I mean, anyone who's read anything about Jesus's interaction with the Pharisees, it was like quintessential.
00:16:57
Speaker
phceical legalistic And often anyone who's experienced in any way a divorce, like that may be the solution later on. But the first thing that needs to happen is relationship and community. And that was just absolutely not a thing. And so...
00:17:14
Speaker
I was worried about that going and visiting this new church that they joined. And what I experienced in that church was love and grace. And I just was embraced in a way that I had never, ever, ever experienced in my whole entire life, attending every church service from birth until that time. And so we had at this new church my parents went to, no affiliation to the previous organization. There were these two pastors there. So the primary teaching pastor was a true student of the word. So his lessons were, hey, let me tell you about what I learned this week and let me show you how I got there. So he taught me how to study the Bible. And I had read Bible.
00:18:02
Speaker
Most of the Bible at that point. So i I had memory verses in my mind. They were just not in any relevant context to what they actually meant. right um So he was so integral in my healing.
00:18:19
Speaker
And then next to him was um associate pastor who was kind of being mentored up under him. And he was just kind of a wild-eyed, just wild guy, but in ah in a fun way, but it was so clear That he had felt the weight of God's grace and mercy in a way that just poured out of him. And so his message was constantly, God is crazy about you. He loves you so much.
00:18:48
Speaker
He constantly would say, God is relentlessly pursuing you. I had never heard anything like that. And so to have those two together, teaching me how to pursue God myself and reminding me, God loves you. like And and he is he is constantly, almost singularly pursuing relationship.
00:19:11
Speaker
like That's what he wants is genuine relationship. Those things were so paramount to my healing and to my growth and to ultimately me falling in love with Jesus. So that's really the timeline of how long did this last? My experience in that church, physically there from birth to age 16, my parents stayed affiliated with the church until I was about 19. Okay. And there still...
00:19:40
Speaker
and there are still residual just loose ends and things that I've worked really hard to remove myself from even now, you know, many years later. Is that like just mindset that you're kind of like undoing?
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, personal mindset. i think mindset of ah people who are close to me. Mm-hmm.
Church's Control and Indoctrination
00:20:02
Speaker
And just the knowledge of the the ideology that still exists. There's not enough degree of separation between myself and and that and really trying to kind of graciously be separated from that, which is part of the reason I didn't want to have this conversation. But...
00:20:21
Speaker
Recently, like I listened to um a sermon on abuse. We might link it. We might link it in the comments because I think it would be helpful for people to understand. But he really got the pastor that was that was um explaining abuse, he really got granular about like this is abuse and this is not abuse. um And he went into financial abuse and spiritual abuse. And obviously, the the obvious abuse that you would you know consider... in particularly romantic relationships, but in any kind of relationship. And a lot of it really, really resonated because I was like, wow, yep, all of those things. Wow. Oh, my goodness. But one of the things that he said was, the rights to your story belong to the one who wrote it.
00:21:07
Speaker
And that's, I think, ultimately what... That and a chorus of other people kind of saying similar things, like that's ultimately how we find ourselves in this building, in this moment together, talking about this specifically. so Yeah.
00:21:24
Speaker
So let's kind of take a step back and kind of focus a little bit more on this church yeah as an organization. And they, the way you kind of described it it was kind of this all consuming,
00:21:42
Speaker
you it's church on the weekends and these church members, this body is heavily involved in your life. And it's kind of like your day to day. How did this organization kind of operate? How did this kind of work? Yeah, it's a good point because I do think that's in conversations that I've had with many people over the years, it is hard to imagine. Like what how did church become so all-consuming? Beliefs of this church, like first and foremost, they believe and taught ah that they are the one true church.
00:22:23
Speaker
So unless you are part of this very specific organization, You are not saved. So it does not matter if you've professed your faith in Jesus Christ. It does not matter if you are a student of the word or any of those things. um If you are not a member of this specific, it's not part of any mainline denominations of Christianity. So it's a very specific, you are not saved and you will go to hell. And the method and means of becoming a member is through baptism.
00:22:57
Speaker
You are not saved unless you are baptized. And you are not able to be baptized unless and until you complete this extensive series of studies. I want to be careful because it's like all of these things I think started with purish intentions. And it's just the subtleness that created absolute calamity. And so you complete this series of studies that's meant, I think, to educate you, one, on what Christianity is, which, I mean, many churches have like a, hey, you need to know what we believe before you're signing on here. Right. These are seemingly normal good things. Yeah, pretty innocuous, except this one is pretty, it took me, so as a kid, ah i started the pre-studies because if you're doing this as a child, um you have to do some some ah remedial to lead up to the main series of studies. So I think it took me a year to get through the remedial and then maybe another year to get through like the main studies. And how old were you?
00:24:03
Speaker
When I started the pre-studies, I was 10 11, maybe. and this was like a you know, I'd be meeting weekly with someone to go through these things or even, to you know, it would be the evaluation you know,
00:24:19
Speaker
um Are you ready to take on the next pre-study based on our conversation of the previous study? And the evaluation for readiness was so confusing to me. so So you have to go through this series of studies once you get to the end. And it's important you understand, like, just an example of this one. And I give this example a lot, just but I think it really bears the weight of um just the psychological state in which you find yourself.
00:24:46
Speaker
when you're walking through these studies. So you go through various studies, kind of starting out light of just like, you know, the gospel in general. And then you get to a place three or four studies in where you're having to create a comprehensive list of every sin you've ever committed. so Here was my experience. Here was the experience of other accounts that I've heard of people who I have never met who matched almost exactly what my experience was. other relatives of mine who this was also their experience. you know So again, this was an expansive network. And so this was the model of this organization. They list every verse in the Bible that lists every sin.
00:25:28
Speaker
So primarily in the New Testament, where there are these you know talking about the the difference between like walking in the spirit and you know not And they list specific sins. So you have to go find those verses. I had to go and find those verses, list out every sin, and then for each individual sin, list every time that I had ever committed each one of those sins. like i don't even know how you're supposed to remember these things. Well, so, okay. So I was, i think I was 12 or 13 by the time I got to that point.
00:26:02
Speaker
And So I brought it to my person. They are supposed to function as a mentor. i think that's a very dangerous word to use because that's absolutely not what my experience was. But that's essentially what their function was supposed to be. So I brought it to whoever was responsible for so facilitating that study.
00:26:28
Speaker
And they looked at it and they essentially said, and this is this is my experience, but it is not only my experience. It was like, you need to pray about this because you did not try hard enough and you need to go back and pray and and add some stuff because clearly there's some stuff that's missing here.
00:26:46
Speaker
And so I had to go back and be like, nope, these are the sins that I've committed. What I find interesting hearing the age that you were at that point And then having somebody say, like, I think there's probably more here. When you and your young mind are already kind of searching for these wrongdoings. It's like, how do how do you at that age Are you thinking about things that may not be bad that you're like, well, maybe I could put this down to to satisfy this list or or like, you know what I mean? Like, do you come up with something? Do you lot like, you know, like, do you embellish or like, or are you scared because then you'll have to answer to for it like that kind of thing? Yes, all I think all of those things probably went through my mind of just like, well, i can't lie because then – but I think what it did, even as you're saying it it, there were things that I believed were sinful that were responses to my environment. Right.
00:27:53
Speaker
ah So anger is not sin. I mean, Jesus had righteous anger in the temple, and he flipped some tables and made a whip and like made a scene.
00:28:05
Speaker
That's not sinful. But I do think that that was like a – so I think that was probably one that it was like, well, I was you know angry about this. Like, yeah, I was angry about a lot because nobody was ever listening to me, and everybody was dumping on me.
00:28:18
Speaker
um And so, yes, there probably was a lot of that. And it was like a a fear of I'm already really embarrassed and ashamed of these things. And like you're telling me there's more. What is it that you adult who's pouring into me sees in me that's so bad that you believe that this is not a complete list?
00:28:37
Speaker
Did you ever ask that? No, no, there there there definitely was not a um a place for. healthy dialogue like that. Not at all.
00:28:48
Speaker
Because you're a very logical person. So like I could feel like you as a child just being like, well, you tell me. Like if i yeah didn't give you the right answer, then you tell me what that answer is.
00:28:59
Speaker
Yes, I am a logical person. But I think taking everything in and not feeling like there was a safe place for me. You know, knowing that my parents were on board with this, you know, and we'll get into that. I think that's an important part of that because I think a lot of people, I know a lot of people may think like, where the were your parents? You know, yeah my parents would never. And I'm like, well,
00:29:21
Speaker
They might. So you get to this place with the sin study where you really are broken down. that That list was read out loud in front of multiple people, a panel of women, one of whom I was mild to moderately comfortable and close with, the rest of whom, one of one of whom I think was a total stranger, um and the rest of whom I had very minimal relationship with. So to read you know really personal things out loud as a child to all these adults, or somebody else read it, I just had to sit there and listen.
Personal and Family Impact
00:29:57
Speaker
And then after you get to that, you get to us a study where they talk about the crucifixion in a means that is intended to highlight the suffering that Jesus experienced
00:30:12
Speaker
i Again, trying to be objective, i think the intention may have started to try and evoke the ah the guilt of, I did this to Jesus.
00:30:24
Speaker
My sin is what caused him to have to be crucified on the cross. You can't stay there. you know like It's true. i am responsible. you know Jesus's sacrifice was necessary because of my inability to atone for my own sins. That's true.
00:30:43
Speaker
He doesn't resent me for that. Right. And he did it joyfully and willingly. Like he obviously didn't want to suffer and prayed not to. um And he did it confidently for just the chance that I might turn to him and know him. And so that's and that part was never, ever, ever addressed. It was a lot of shame and guilt. It was just a tremendous amount of, you know,
00:31:12
Speaker
you're bad and your badness is the reason that jesus had to die shame on you like you killed him and so that's the point that you get to where you're really kind of break broken down and it's not long after that point uh that you get to the end of the studies and they just start kind of grilling you on like right before you get baptized by the way so whatever it took me you know two, three years, whatever it was, every time that I'm interacting with someone, which was often most days a week, you know, I had whoever was assigned to me as a mentor, I'm using massive air quotes if you can't see me because, like again, not a mentor.
00:31:54
Speaker
They would remind me every day that I would speak to them like, hey, you know if you died today, you would go to hell. like You have not been baptized. So you're saying this is like as the for these three years, these are phone calls.
00:32:09
Speaker
Phone calls in person. That happened. multiple days a week uh-huh yeah and most days a week yeah most days a week and are you calling them or are they like calling you like this is happening like are you just expected and you just do it out of yes fear essentially i was expected to initiate that and if i didn't i would get a call but i you don't want want to be in that it was reprimanding call it wasn't like we're concerned are you okay yeah Why haven't I heard from you? you need to What sin are you living in that you're not confessing? And so most nights, probably every night, before I went to sleep, I was so scared to die. It was like every single night, i would just my prayer was, please don't let me die tonight because I don't want to go to hell.
00:32:53
Speaker
for For most of my childhood, because it was like even before I got to the point that I was able to even start the pre-studies, it was a regular conversation that like you're not baptized, you're not saved. From the pulpit or like just all of the interactions? Yeah, ok all of the above.
00:33:08
Speaker
All the things. So it's weird, like, being inside that organization that it's like, I'm expected to bring people in but I'm not even in. you know? Eventually, I was able to kind of, I don't know, give the right level of um allegiance in my responses. Because that's really what it felt like at the end of it. It felt like, are you assimilated?
00:33:28
Speaker
ultimately i mean, the the root of the the final evaluation that came from, like, an elder's wife or something that was like, what are you going to do if... Someone questions you about this. What are you going to say? you know are you What if you meet someone outside this church that you you know really have a strong affinity to? Which actually happened, by the way. So that was part of the, like, you get to the end.
00:33:51
Speaker
By the time that I was at you know the end of that, you and I had met. Mm-hmm. No, it was I met you right after i got baptized. So ninth grade. Okay. I didn't realize it was that close. Yeah. Okay. I did meet a boy at the grocery store that I worked at who was really, really kind to me comparatively. I mean, who knows? It'd be hard to ah not, I wasn't being objective at that point, but comparatively was so kind and took an interest in me. And clearly he was interested in a relationship, but took an interest in me and was very, very kind to me. And I did invite him to church because like you can't you can't date well you can't date at all before you're baptized, um but you can't date outside that church. um So if you want to date someone that you meet outside that church, you have to convert them and then you can start dating. And so I certainly invited him and he did come to a couple of things and he was like,
00:34:47
Speaker
Good for you. No, thanks. you know But that was one of the things before I got baptized is they said this. and And to be absolutely clear, there was no impropriety in that relationship whatsoever.
00:35:01
Speaker
There was nothing going on other than we had mutual feelings for each other. We saw each other at school. We saw each other at work. But like there was no impropriety. So there wasn't like something that someone could point to to be like, maybe this is an unhealthy situation. relationship it was you have strong feelings for this person and that is going to pull you away from the kingdom if you want to be baptized you cannot speak to this person anymore speak yeah i could not have any kind of contact and i had to make that decision which is weird because like we work together i was gonna ask like that seems pretty impossible yeah
00:35:37
Speaker
And we went to school together. We definitely saw each other all the time. So I had to call him and say, hey, I am pursuing my relationship with Christ, and I cannot have any kind of friendship or anything with you. And, I mean, you knew him. So, like, it's it he was so gracious and so confused.
00:36:00
Speaker
I was going to ask, like, did he say, like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm not sure if that's – healthy for you. He said, what I recall was, I don't really understand, but whatever it is that you feel like you need to do, do that. Because what do you say? Like, who who, what realm of reality does something like that happen, you know? And I remember getting off that phone call and going in my parents' room and laying on their bed and just weeping and wailing because I was so sad. Like, yeah there weren't a lot of nice people to me taking an interest, you know, and and someone who I also was mutually interested in. And um that was that was heartbreaking and really hard.
00:36:43
Speaker
It could have been done a different way. Like, because, like, obviously that wasn't a viable relationship. Yeah. But there was no leaning in and no, it was a very legalistic, like, you need to cut this person off.
00:36:56
Speaker
And we don't actually care about him. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it they're just, it was so anyway. So that was baptism for me. Confession. So yes, we did this in study once, but confession was a daily thing.
00:37:08
Speaker
So I cannot even wrap my brain around the idea of this repetitive like practice, the the stress, the physical stress that that would put a child in to say, give me more. That's not enough.
00:37:27
Speaker
Like surely you're more sinful than that. Yeah. And it's like just conditioning your mind to view yourself in this light that is,
00:37:38
Speaker
not the way that God sees me wants you. Yes. And it's like, sure, like as believers, we acknowledge the things that separate us, but that is why we rejoice in the gospel. yeah And the fact that there wasn't a balance in that, like, sure, like that isn't in in any capacity. Okay. Yeah.
00:38:04
Speaker
to have ah ah especially a child do but to leave them there in that space and not say oh but by the way yeah there's this redemption that comes in and that makes you whole it breaks my heart yeah to think of you as a small child You brought up communion and that reminds me. So we took communion every Sunday.
00:38:30
Speaker
And the, so I was not permitted to take communion and you're not permitted to take communion until you're baptized. um So I was passing the tray every week. They would always say, and this is a big part of it, like we did go straight from the Bible, but we would take a lot of things out of context.
00:38:47
Speaker
Air quotes straight from the Bible. Yeah. I mean, there it all all the words came from the Bible. They did. Right. An example of that was they would quote scripture and say, you know, before you take this communion, you need to examine your heart.
00:39:01
Speaker
yeah And this is from scripture, like because if you take this communion and your heart is in the wrong place, you are eating and drinking judgment on yourself. Mm-hmm. So every time when I was able to take communion, i was like, oh, my gosh, like, am I taking, you know, like, i I know that I am an imperfect person and I know that I've screwed up this week. Like, did i confess every sin? Is there something I've forgotten?
00:39:28
Speaker
Every single moment was always like, I gotcha, you know? And so taking communion even was terrifying. I wanna be very clear about that. Like that scripture, having read it as an adult, what's crazy about that is I think it's in Corinthians, I think it's 1 Corinthians,
00:39:45
Speaker
And he's speaking to first century Christian church, and he's talking about communion and the way that people are taking communion, where some people were going to the communion table and treating it as though it were their meal. So they were getting drunk on the wine, they were eating all the bread, and then not leaving enough for someone else in the body to take communion. And it's basically like, if you're hungry, eat at home. Yeah.
00:40:10
Speaker
And then he says, examine your heart before you take communion, because whoever takes communion in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment on themselves. I never heard that context as a child. I heard the Bible says if you take communion in an unworthy manner, you eat and drink judgment on yourself. So you need to examine your heart. So in my mind, like I'm constantly my own worst enemy, and I'm probably going to do something that's going to forfeit my salvation by the things that I already have to do. Because if I didn't take communion, then someone's going to be like, what's wrong? Are you struggling? Right. I was going to say you're kind of darned if you do and darned if you don't. Truly. And again, like you can tie all of this stuff back to scripture. yeah like That's, i think, the most insidious part of this particular organization, especially to have been born into it. Right. like There's enough truth in it to make it a very powerful lie.
00:41:08
Speaker
Obviously, Helena knows my parents. you know My parents were second parents to her. you know Her second home was our home. And so it's a hard thing probably to digest like knowing pete these people and knowing your experience. like how do they you know but And my point to her was like if you believe...
00:41:27
Speaker
that you are the one true church. If you've if you've crossed that threshold and youve you've subscribed to that belief, why wouldn't you want to get your kids started as early as possible? right In the same ways that, you know, we have our beliefs and ah the things that we want to instill in our children and plant seeds and get them started early. Like for my youngest, like,
00:41:51
Speaker
They're not probably old enough for someone to to expect that they would know their directions. But I know that child's capacity. So I'm not saying something is over there. I'll say that's to your right.
00:42:07
Speaker
So that they can put together, because I know that they can use context clues and figure out like, oh, this way is right. And this way is left. Like, these are things that I'm instilling in them, you know, early, early, the same way that, you know, my parents, from what they were convinced was true, were were absolutely surrendered to instill in my brothers and I. You were assigned...
00:42:30
Speaker
An individual at every point, each person in the congregation had, we'll call them an accountability partner. That was not an organic relationship. So typically like leadership would would assign you a person to talk to daily. So confess your sins daily, but you also, this practice of asking them advice. If you can't see me, I'm doing air quotes again, because that term, it's such a dangerous, like there were so many words that were used ah in the wrong context that foundationally, like when, you know, if you grow up hearing ask advice, and really what it means is ask permission, right, that sucks that you have that, you know, kind of warped perspective. um And so what asking advice meant in a very practical sense was asking permission for everything from the menial to the to the mega.
00:43:22
Speaker
For example, when my family was in the Northeast and my dad was unemployed for a year, when my dad finally got a job down South,
00:43:34
Speaker
He asked advice of the head pastor, who was the same one who had you know has said, you guys come to to to the Northeast. The lead pastor said, no, you need to stay here.
00:43:47
Speaker
And ultimately, my dad decided to move us back down south. So before we got back down to where you and I grew up, that church, with that our departing church, called ahead to the church that we were going to be joining and said, we want you to know that this family is coming against advice.
00:44:10
Speaker
And my dad and, by extension, me were, from that moment on, marked. Like, you're insubordinate, um and that's a problem.
00:44:21
Speaker
What were their reasoning for not wanting you guys to leave?
Realization and Personal Growth
00:44:26
Speaker
do Do you know or is there an assumption? Yes, I believe that it was the kingdom is growing here.
00:44:32
Speaker
And so you need to be a part of that. To my knowledge, there was not like a, let's come up with a solution so that you guys can eat. right It was, no, like you need to just be here. And not like the Lord's telling me. right it It was, no, you you need to be here. So the so the advice part, you know, that that from from the time I was just before I turned five,
00:44:56
Speaker
I was marked because of my last name. And so you think about like my dad, you know, the time at which my parents were converted to this church. Each of my parents, from my perspective and what they have shared with me, seem to have been connected with this organization at vulnerable parts of their lives. hmm.
00:45:17
Speaker
they did witness and experience powerful things that convinced them that this was the one true church. So whatever it is that they're saying must be true because we are having the experiences would support that this is something where God is present. And and in fairness, I believe that God was present.
00:45:41
Speaker
you know And you think about the downfall of the originating church that they departed from. the downfall was concealed, unconfessed, undealt with sin that wasn't rooted out, which like if you look in the Bible, that is always the catalyst for someone's demise. So I don't doubt that there was radical things happening.
00:46:09
Speaker
I also don't doubt that there was stuff going on under the surface that caused a lot of problems. My dad, I think, being a really intelligent, really inquisitive man.
00:46:21
Speaker
Eventually, in his study, you know, when he got converted, he was not biblically literate. He was enthusiastic about learning, but he was not biblically literate. At the point at which he got years under his belt and was reading the Bible and studying it on his own and being a logical, intelligent person,
00:46:42
Speaker
started asking questions after, you know, he had moved us down south against advice and stuff. So he's already looked at as insubordinate. Then he starts saying, hey, this is what I'm seeing in scripture, but this is what we're doing or this is what we're teaching. Help me understand the difference.
00:47:01
Speaker
And there were not answers to those questions because Just to be very frank, most people who were put in leadership positions from a biblical literacy perspective strictly were out of their league.
00:47:16
Speaker
They couldn't answer those questions, but he's causing problems. So him being marked, I mean, i i felt it. My brothers felt it.
00:47:26
Speaker
Like we felt the weight of our last name. Nobody was treated great. We got some extra special treatment. you as a family kind of leave those it's like times like on a Sunday and just be like, man, like why is everybody treating us like this? Or was it kind of this unspoken like keep your head down and just kind of...
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah. b You got to remember, we were born into it. this This was my reality. I had no context that things could be different.
00:48:00
Speaker
Okay. Because if you're so like, the church believes they're the one true church. They also believe that the world, anyone outside of that organization is potentially poisoning your thoughts or your um walk with the Lord or or your affiliation to the kingdom. I'm using air quotes if you can't see me.
00:48:21
Speaker
So we were so insulated and isolated and and really directed to do that. Don't read anything outside of you know our teachings. don't um you know that That is sinful really so I didn't have relationship with people who functioned outside of this organization very often. And if I did, it was really limited. So no, I didn't have a sense of like, it shouldn't be this way. i certainly and we all had a sense of this is miserable. Right.
00:48:56
Speaker
But that was just my baseline reality. Okay. Until right around the time that we met. So again, like, you know, I meet this boy.
00:49:08
Speaker
um a year later, i meet you. The same year that I met this boy, I met one of our mutual friends. who Same thing. It was like, i don't know why this girl's talking to me. Like, she was, you know, beautiful and...
00:49:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:40
Speaker
um she didn't know a stranger No, and she really genuinely loved everybody. Like, yeah that was one of the beautiful things about her. um But that's ah that's a whole other episode. We're going to get to that, I think. It was around that time that it started to, those things started to be a question. Because I started to get context for, wow, right all these people in this organization don't like Mm-hmm.
00:50:06
Speaker
And i I have done everything that I know to do to be more likable. I don't know who I have to be to be someone that's accepted and embraced and appreciated for who I am, ah but I can't. you know And I'm never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to preserve my salvation. I'm always one decision away.
00:50:33
Speaker
whether it's an inadvertent or a deliberate decision away from just losing it. And so the point at which I started to think like, this shouldn't be this way was was right around the time that we met. I remembered last night, like I actually attended a church service with you.
00:50:53
Speaker
I have no recollection of So yes, I did get to come and experience this. As I have learned about my child self, you know, looking back and as an adult, I have always operated in a sense of like ignorant bliss. Yes.
00:51:15
Speaker
Yeah, there's been a couple of times that it's like you have been present for some memories that were really unpleasant for me. And you look at it in a totally different perspective. Like, yeah I loved what you shared about like, you saw my parents on stage or my dad on stage singing and you thought...
00:51:28
Speaker
How nice. Yes. So I remember going and I can't even remember. I feel like there may have been some kind of like, hey, let me just let you know what you're about to get into. Because you understood that it was different than what I was used to. sure And maybe even like a, you may enter encounter this person or that, you know, like that kind of like, yeah here's a name, like I'm going to place the face so you can kind of make those connections. Yeah. I think I remember, I know I remember your dad being on stage singing. I think I recall maybe one of your brothers being there. Yes, he would have been. And not sitting together.
00:52:12
Speaker
no I think. And I remember thinking that was odd. Like, why are we not together? Like, why would we not all sit together? That wasn't the communal piece of church was something i was not used to yeah so that to me was intriguing to think like not in like a dangerous i want to be a part of this way thank you lord but like i found it really sweet that yeah i was like look at your
00:52:45
Speaker
not singing like i love that like that's so refreshing i don't recall anything from the sermon i don't remember there being something that was brought up in the sermon that i that caused me to ponder ah you know further investigation or struck against my beliefs like i think it was like good for you guys that was a great sermon So I've gone back and listened because I've been like, okay, now that I am much more biblically literate than I used to be, I'm not saying, again, I'm not a theologian. I'm not an apologetic. i'm not I am an enthusiastic student of the word. But now that I've gone back and listened to some of that stuff in the in the sermons that I have personally heard,
00:53:31
Speaker
There's very little substance. There's a lot of words. Okay. So i can i'm I'm not surprised to hear you say that. There's a lot of charisma okay in the presentation and very little to do with the word of God.
00:53:52
Speaker
Do you remember... The entrance of the speaker. I'm so disappointed if this didn't make an impression on you because this is like to me. i feel like I remember you talking about it. The speaker, whoever it was, it was usually the head pastor or whatever. So they would come up to the stage and as they were coming up, the whole congregation would get up and whistle and clap and cheer for them. Okay. And they would stand at the podium and kind of let them.
00:54:27
Speaker
you know, rev them up or whatever. and then often it would be like they would kind of, you know, kind of motion for them to calm down so people would cheer louder. oh god it was all contrived. Like we all knew our part that we played in that. Sunday was a show and it wasn't a show for the Lord. It was not the saints ministering to the presence of the Almighty being there. It was we know that there are potential new people in our midst, and we want them to see these things. Like I look back and like the church that we go to now, there are things about just the mechanics of it that rub me wrong because of the the show that we were putting on on Sundays. But what I absolutely... And these are these are preferences only. Like this is not a I have a concern about... you know
00:55:20
Speaker
the health of our church. These are personal preferences deeply rooted in old wounds that I have from from knowing, you know, my parents were both in worship ministry. And so I got to see the the mechanics of that. And so I knew enough to know what was going on that was contrived that I didn't like.
00:55:38
Speaker
So I'm coming from that place, but it's, you cannot deny the presence of the Lord. And there is, even in hands raised and overt worship, it is not about who sees me in whatever experience that I'm having with the Lord. It is about the body of believers being together and delighting in the presence of the Lord. I also ah have the absolute privilege of knowing those who lead worship and knowing their heart and know the spirit in which they're coming from. And it is so very different.
00:56:13
Speaker
yeah But it is ah it's such a it's crazy to hear you coming into that and being like, oh, how nice. And then remembering that like... For all of our conversation about Jesus, there was an absolute and utter lack of reverence for who he is. right And that pains me. That breaks my heart. It is really interesting to kind of... walk through the timeline of things with you because i was there when you kind of made that decision to leave and kind of like start your life like as apart from this church I was there for for those early days yeah
00:56:58
Speaker
That all was happening at the same time that I had lost my mom. I was treading water, like I was trying to just survive. yeah And so I probably didn't have the capacity to see that you have may have been suffering in some area of your life because I was just in so much desperate need for just relationship.
00:57:25
Speaker
I didn't know enough to say, and how are you doing? You know, like, are you, how are you feeling today? Did you feel like you would have been ready to kind of dissect certain things at that point? I didn't really understand. even Even within the last year or two, as I've been unpacking it, I'm like, ah even when I prayed, like, where is the bottom of this? um Because I can't find it. I can't find the bottom. It just keeps going and it's, you know, um but I... like opening up these wounds. Every time you hear there's more yeah uncover. Yeah, and how widespread it was. And, you know, it wasn't just a bad experience my family had. it with This was systemic and widespread and all these things. and
00:58:05
Speaker
But as you know, I was a pretty angsty teenager. I'm surprised I wasn't more overtly expressing my anger about that. But I do think... the point at which I was able to like have the conversation with someone from the church and say, like I can't do this anymore, I'm done. it was such a relief to have like a release of that, that I do think maybe it was just like, a I'm putting this behind me and moving on. and it really was not until college where our mutual friend, gonna use a buzzword,
00:58:41
Speaker
And if I haven't lost you already, don't let me lose you now. my Our mutual friend was in college and she called me and was like, hey, I'm doing a um i'm doing a ah paper on controversial topics and I'm writing about cults and I want to interview you. And I was like, why? Which is wild to me that...
00:59:01
Speaker
You kind of had, like you said, like the boxes were there to be checked. Sure. But you were not trying to give it this title. Like it was just your experience. Right. This is what you knew to be church. And you were just like, well, I guess church is just not for me. Is that what you kind of gathered up until that point? Right. Well, okay. Again, like i didn't I didn't ever at that point, like certainly I don't believe these things now, but at the point that I stepped away from it, I didn't think this is not the one true church.
00:59:32
Speaker
Like I wasn't rejecting their doctrine. I was saying, I simply can't do this. Like if you believe that every moment, like I'm i'm a microsecond away from losing my salvation and going to hell, I have been living in hell for a really long time in this situation, and I simply can't do this anymore. So I give up.
00:59:54
Speaker
Apparently, I'm going to hell. So that's what you – when you walked away at 16, you were essentially in your mind and understanding from their teachings. Yes. Surrendering and just saying, like, i I'm – Just going to have to come to terms yep with the fact that i'm goingnna go to home I'm going to hell and I would rather at least have some sanity if I could find it or know what that looks like. Yeah. Then continue. I didn't want to die.
01:00:24
Speaker
you know, I wasn't, I wasn't ready to die. Like those were not um thoughts that I had, but I, I felt like I was going to die if I stayed in that. And, you know, it was just, I was, it couldn't, I just couldn't do it anymore. And so it was like, and I even said to the person who was like, very briefly was my accountability partner, who was a relatively sane, adjusted person. um i don't think they're a part of the organization anymore, but I said, I'm not saying I don't believe in God. Like, I just can't do this. And i didn't stop praying. Like, I – which is an interesting thing to think. Like, I was still talking to God. Right. Even though I thought he had condemned me. Like, somehow I still understood or it had this expectation of the ability to approach him. Right. Right. And the whole time I was just going, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But I i still, know, of no like guilt, like it wasn't like, oh, I should probably talk to God so that I can you know be safe from this or whatever. Like I thought it was done and over, you know, like I, but I still had relationship with him. i mean, and that really kind of ties into what the wild years became and why they became that. Right. So you were like, this is what it is. So let's just... Yeah. Whatever whatever I was trying to prevent you know from stealing my salvation, it doesn't matter anymore. So if i if this looks interesting or somehow attractive, I will pursue it. you know A lot of those things were so damaging to my mental well-being, you know to my physical well-being, to my relational well-being, all of those things...
01:02:07
Speaker
Because I just never from birth had anyone really speaking value, like validation into the value of my life. Right.
01:02:19
Speaker
um And I believed that my life was primarily for the benefit of others. Right. even to the detriment of myself and i think you like could probably see that as you look back yeah like yeah and marie definitely would put herself in uncomfortable situations right and that makes so much sense now while you have been removed from this organization for years it continued to yeah haunt and it It informed my decision. So, and I like, this is a place I come to because it's like, I always, I understand the argument is like, well, are you trying to victimize yourself and make it like it's somebody else's fault that you made those decisions? Absolutely not. I own every single one of the decisions that I made, good and bad. I made them. That's free will exists on purpose.
01:03:07
Speaker
I made those decisions with that information. Right. And I find that the better information that I have that Certainly I'm not perfect, um but I make better decisions. right And I think that's true of everyone. So it's like, there's yes, what I'm not trying to do is separate myself and say I'm not responsible for these things and it's somebody else's fault and it's all their fault. That's not what I'm saying. um But i I hope that anyone who hears this who is feeling some shame...
01:03:40
Speaker
around places that they find themselves in that it's like, why did I even do that? Like, what the heck was I doing? Like, it would be very helpful to examine what narrative has followed you and where did it originate?
01:03:56
Speaker
Because if you're trying to get out of this cycle of, because you I mean, you saw all the shenanigans and I imagine, i don't want to project, but I imagine that some of the collective thought was like,
01:04:08
Speaker
Why can't you just stop stop doing that? like Well, I think like – When it came to, you know, us being in our early twenty s and we're kind of figuring out adulthood and relationships and that kind of thing. i mean, we approached relationships so differently. Yes. And I think it's so obvious how we approached relationships in response to our desires and or experiences. Yes. It was like we were looking for something that we either lacked or desired or were kind of used to. Yeah. And so I think because our, those experiences for us were so different, we had such different relationships that Yeah. um And so I would look at it and be like, well, he's not very nice to you or I wouldn't like that. Why? No. And like I but it was like, where's the threshold that you stop allowing people to treat you so poorly? Because it's like you were my best friend and I loved you. And it was like.
01:05:26
Speaker
While our relationship was not certain, was, you know, certainly not perfect. Right. But it was, you know, i I hope like we stuck around each other because like we, it was fairly enjoyable. Right. And so it was like, well, why can't he see that?
01:05:40
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Like, I think that's what it came down to was like, I, Think she's pretty great. What's the problem with you? you know You know, in those years, like that's kind of when you were talking about our our mutual friend kind of bringing things to your attention, essentially. She did. And I think that is so fascinating that it kind of came to light in that way. Like, did you have a moment of like denial?
01:06:14
Speaker
or were you like, oh, my gosh, that's it? Lots of moments. When she initially said, i want to do, you know, I'm doing this um paper on cults.
01:06:24
Speaker
I genuinely was like, why are you talking to me? right and my And my immediate response was to go to Google and and look and see. So I just Googled for the organization church organization and the word cult and all these survivor groups popped up. And it was insane. Did your heart just drop into your stomach or were you just like did that like, what was your physical reaction to that? I was horrified. I was like, this part of it was like, you know, that like always, always feeling um like no one ever came to my defense for my entire childhood. And so there was a part of it that was like vindication of like, I'm not crazy. Like this actually happened. um It quickly just turned to
01:07:09
Speaker
ah what probably came out as anger or rage, but at the core of it was just deep heartbreak. Because as you start to look at, and this is still true, like at least in the last year or two, as I've i've done a little bit of research, like I've had to be like, all right, I get it. I see what's going on. I understand. i forgive you. I forgive all of you. Like, and i I have no responsibility in this anymore. Like, you know, whatever. and But like, as I've seen it, it's still, this is still true that current members are in the comments of the survivor groups continuing the whatever, the accusation and the arguments and the just frivolous, fruitless debates um that are so...
01:07:57
Speaker
prideful and hateful and short-sighted and uneducated, frankly. Complete opposite of the gospel? there's a very There's a tremendous lack of compassion and care um for people's experiences. I mean, these are they're like there were people who came to the same place that I did of like, I can't do this anymore.
01:08:25
Speaker
And they made a different decision than I did. And so there's when you when you think about that, it really like you know in the in the years that I saw that at first, you know my reaction was anger, but like it really at the core was just heartbreak of like, how can you not see this was supposed to be your brother or sister in Christ?
01:08:47
Speaker
How can you not... hair for their experience, whether you agree with it or disagree with it. Like, how is there not a recognition that that's a human being, like, that God designed that person in his image, that he sent his own son for their life?
01:09:09
Speaker
And you can't see past your own, I don't even know what, just to get to a place of like genuine love and value of other people. So I've definitely gone through the whole gamut of, yes, there was denial at first. There was a lot of vindication. I think there were many years of, I can't wait till I get to call this person out and this person out and this person out and this person out.
01:09:37
Speaker
and Now, were your parents still apart at this point or had they already left? when When our friend called me up in college, they were still in it. Yeah. Did you want to call them and...
01:09:49
Speaker
the Oh, we had many conversations. Maybe this is a good place to to talk about that because I think everyone's like, what was happening with your parents? When are we going to talk about that? Like, right we had many conversations. My parents are different people. And so the conversations were different. than But the ones that really like come to mind and stand out that I think are worth sharing, my dad... was way above average in intellect. And and at a point in his life, his wisdom did eventually catch up to his intellect. there We did have some good conversations, but it was like, I recognized I'm not smarter than my dad.
01:10:25
Speaker
And so though like that was a question that I had being removed enough from it of like, hey, I don't think I'm any smarter than you. Help me understand how we got here. Right.
01:10:39
Speaker
And he said a couple of things that he said. and The first one was like, you you use the frog in a pot of boiling water analogy of like, you put a frog in a pot of lukewarm water and you slowly turn the temperature up. Frog's not gonna jump out. it's It will be too late. He's already gotten adjusted to the temperature. If you were to... Throw him in a pot of boiling water, he might jump out.
01:11:03
Speaker
This was a slow burn over time of like, you see things that aren't quite right, and but you still believe at its core that it's, you know, this is the only place to be.
01:11:15
Speaker
And so you kind of just make allowances or or you just pray that things will be different or whatever it is that they did. But it was like they would see little things. And over time, it became the experience that my brothers and I had in childhood, which was different.
01:11:31
Speaker
I mean, I wasn't there, but according to my parents who were there, different than what they initially experienced. and That was the first thing. And the second thing, when it comes to like forgiveness for my parents, like the church...
01:11:43
Speaker
really taught, give us your children and we will make them disciples of Jesus Christ. And my parents bought into that. And so a lot of my formative years were spent more often with a air quotes mentor than being discipled by my parents. And I didn't know enough to tell my parents like,
01:12:07
Speaker
the things that were happening, the conversations that were being had, because I assumed that they knew and that they condoned it. And another point I asked him, like, how could you have possibly let this happen to us?
01:12:20
Speaker
And he apologized, um which I appreciated. um and he also said, i want you to know every single thing we did, we did because we thought it was the best thing for you.
Rediscovery of Faith
01:12:32
Speaker
And for me, that was enough because it meant like my parents loved me. right They were wildly misguided. right But they did these things not out of neglect, but out of a genuine place of love. And ultimately, like the end of the story or the place we find ourselves now is like at the core, the tiny little glimmer of whatever it was that I knew of Jesus was enough to sustain me through all of the nonsense, including being indoctrinated to how to study scripture and do it at a regiment. So like I was constantly reading the Bible as a kid.
01:13:15
Speaker
um So if someone were to say like, well, you don't really know what the Bible says, I'd be like, I probably know more of what it says than you do. Like I can rattle off scripture left, right, and center. I'm in the word every single day. that The danger of that was i was reading it from my modern Western limited, you know, seven-year-old perspective, seven to 15-year-old perspective um without a lot of understanding of the world around me and certainly not an understanding of the original language, the culture.
01:13:48
Speaker
Right.
01:13:57
Speaker
the insidious part of that is like i had a base of scripture which should have been enough for me to just go if that's the one true church and i can't get down with this then christianity is not for me right Through that experience, there were so many things that seeds that were planted that even in the midst of evil, yeah God was able to make a beautiful mosaic out of all these broken pieces. like And there were people breaking all the pieces all throughout my life. um And so like you can have your feelings about...
01:14:36
Speaker
you know and And Monday morning quarterback all day long, like what you would or wouldn't do as a parent or what you wouldn't or wouldn't do as a person finding yourself in this situation. But the reality is it doesn't matter. Like God's love genuinely, genuinely, genuinely is more powerful than the strongest lie, even when it includes...
01:14:59
Speaker
indoctrination and ah and a gross misrepresentation of the gospel, which is which is what happened to me and not just to me, unfortunately. It's just really inspiring to kind of hear your pursuit.
01:15:13
Speaker
You like ran after him. And I could just, I was on my own path, right? God was reaching out to us in different ways. Like he was putting people in our lives that were ultimately getting us to this point where we can share this together. But we did not do that together. No.
01:15:32
Speaker
And I think while having that time of awakening in my own life, at the same time seeing you,
01:15:44
Speaker
pursuing god and attending this church and and growing in your faith and witnessing that it was slow but it and there were still people speaking truth in us it just wasn't you're going to hell because you had a drink last night but it was more of the recognition of like it is for freedom that you've been set free so no longer live your life in bondage. Like it was speaking the truth into your life matters.
01:16:13
Speaker
God is who he says he is. He is trustworthy. So even though you see this thing that seems like it's the better thing, like actually the thing that you're trying to escape by going out on Saturday night, What you're actually looking for is in your relationship with the one who created you right rather than shame on you because your sin looks different than mine. do it Your sins are on the hot list, and so shame on you. Like that's the difference. sins were very external that Certainly, and well-documented. I think looking back, I recognized and thought to myself, like, we're making these same silly life decisions.
01:16:54
Speaker
and And you showed me like you were attending church and in learning and growing. And I was like, well, she's not being turned away.
01:17:07
Speaker
and she's not feeling shame to the point of abandoning this relationship with God. yeah Certainly there's room for me. While we didn't do things identically, like we were not in the same church going to the same Bible study hearing the same messages, we were being pursued and and loved on and we got to see it firsthand happen in each other's lives. God can literally use anything.
01:17:39
Speaker
yeah anything anyone to reach you i mean he made it all so of course he can like i loved when you shared that i think it was last summer like i just wept because it was like those times in my life even as i was doing all that i was i had so much embarrassment and it was like i don't want to be this way like i don't know why i can't get out of this cycle I appreciated so much hearing you say that even through that, like, because y'all had a front row seat to it because we were all, you know, together in most of it. But for you to say that, like, my wrestling with God and my pursuit of him, even in my folly.
01:18:19
Speaker
made space for you to feel like there was a seat at the table that he prepared for you was like, right I didn't do any of that. That was all God. And like, wow, that he took, you know, the part of my story that I least like talking about and made it part of your story of falling in love with him was like, only God, only God could do that. And how beautiful.
01:18:42
Speaker
Like, yeah. Beauty for ashes, you know, a robe from rags, like all the things. And i just, I'm so overwhelmed, you know, overwhelmed by that.
01:18:54
Speaker
So, yeah, it's, um I love you, friend. I love you too. oh Is there a way that you were able to reconcile all these yeah these lies and dismantle them and then replace them with truth? Like, how did you kind of come to like piecing that back together? Like, what did how did you learn that? What did you learn? I started to approach the Bible to learn what it said and not try and make it what I wanted it to say. Like there was a ah place that I finally trusted that God was good and he was for me. And so even when I would get to a place of, I don't understand what the Bible, what this is saying, I didn't just go, well, then it's all, oh this seems contradictory. So yeah.
01:19:46
Speaker
It's all, you know, thrown it all out or whatever. But instead, i would i would get to a place of there was enough trust in my relationship with God at a certain point to go, i don't know what this means yet.
01:19:57
Speaker
But I trust that he is going to give me the information that I need when I need it. And it was wild to watch it happen because it was like I wouldn't necessarily solicit that. from anyone. It was like, I would read something pondered on my own, either pray about it or just process it and just have that posture of, I know because of what I've experienced, you know, whatever I could call back to that God is for me.
01:20:23
Speaker
And I know that he's good. So I, I trust that he'll, he'll provide. And then it would be like, it would come up in conversation, like randomly where someone would be like, oh, because blah, blah, blah. And it was like, I literally was just,
01:20:38
Speaker
ah So, for example, like the the church that I grew up in part of this whole doctrine of baptism for your salvation, there are scriptures that you can use to support that. The rebuttal is, well, who who was saved without being baptized? Like who was who in the Bible was saved without being baptized? There were several. But you talk about the thief on the cross. That's exactly who I was just thinking. Like talk about last minute.
01:21:04
Speaker
but Like very last minute and certainly no immersion baptism. Right. And they say, so the rebuttal to that is, well, um Jesus was still alive when that person was saved.
01:21:17
Speaker
Actually, it says in the Bible, and there's a reason this detail is in here. Jesus breathes his last, cries out. The temple curtain is torn, meaning the temple curtain was the separation between the general population and going into the holiness and presence of the Lord. So the symbolism of that curtain being torn in two is like, it's done. He said, it is finished, breathes his last, he's done. And then what happened? They had to break the thieves' legs because they were still alive.
01:21:47
Speaker
Oh. And they didn't break Jesus's legs because he was already dead. And there's a gazillion things like that, that it's like little landmines. um But I really like the first thing was approaching scripture like that. And the second thing was approaching scripture just in general, like having relationship with Jesus, talking to him as he is, as a friend closer than a brother, not necessarily my default being to pick up the phone and call you. Mm-hmm.
01:22:14
Speaker
for my first thing, like, yes, we're in relationship and we we process things, but you're not my first line of defense. My husband is not even my first line of defense. He is my closest companion and and my closest friend, but actually Jesus is a friend closer than a brother. And like that has made a lot of difference and just good sound teaching where it's like those little landmines have just been undone Little by little over the years, there's absolutely been professional counseling involved. Those are the things like it's it's just been leaning in rather than blaming God for what man does. He he gave us free will on purpose.
01:22:59
Speaker
he is a risk taker and most of the time he's on the end that hurts the worst because we get to choose wrong if we have a choice and often we choose wrong and he has given us that free will over and over and over again that means that we unfortunately also experience the consequences of other people's free will choices yeah Even at vulnerable times. And that I certainly can attest to that. You know, this is this story is a witness of, you know, people do have free will, they literally can blaspheme the name of God, and he will let them do it, right to an extent, and people will be harmed from that. And yet,
01:23:45
Speaker
That free will is what allows for genuine relationship with him. It's what allows us to choose him because if he's the only option, there is no choice.
01:23:58
Speaker
And that's a crazy thing that he would even do. So like, yeah, there's brokenness, but like the wholeness is coming and and it comes here on earth through closeness with him. And I've experienced that for sure.
01:24:14
Speaker
There is space for healing. Yes. And I think it doesn't take something as extreme as the story for somebody to feel church hurt. Or even just the greater experience with Christianity.
01:24:33
Speaker
I mean, I think there's a lot of people that are in some marginalized places. Mm-hmm. That have experienced Christianity in a way that's a gross misrepresentation of the gospel. And what I'm not saying is that, you know, the Bible doesn't address certain things as sin, but but remembering that sin is going in opposition to the creator's will for his creation.
01:24:56
Speaker
So it will cause death and destruction, whatever it is. Sin is anything that separates us from having right and close relationship with God. So my response as a Christian to sin is one, not to celebrate it.
01:25:14
Speaker
And two, not to expect anyone to celebrate mine. And three, to appreciate and recognize the humanity of my fellow brother and sister who has made a decision contrary to their best and highest good according to a fully trustworthy, all-knowing creator. That does not evoke in me A spirit of ah self-righteousness or hatred or unkindness or elevating myself and my sin above anyone else's. And that, I think, is probably relatable to most people, yeah regardless of how extreme their experience has been. And I feel like I've gotten to this point also with the help of amazing professional counselors.
01:26:04
Speaker
When you experience that, a relationship with God in the right way, the natural response that comes from that is the desire for others to have it.
01:26:18
Speaker
That's when things become clear is because you're looking at people through that lens. Right. That is something that as we've both grown yeah in our relationship with God, like I've seen that in you. I think you got there a little quicker than I did. Yeah.
01:26:38
Speaker
Because I remember, like, seeing you respond to things specifically around the time when your dad had passed away. There was things that were happening in your environment. And I was like, I'm about to go off. Yeah. And I'm like, and you were, like, so calm. And, like, the way that you were like, hey, we're not going to do that, okay? And I was like, I'm about to, like, tell her about herself right now. Yeah.
01:27:04
Speaker
Like it took, I think it took me becoming a parent and in in recognizing, I think parenting is humbling for so many reasons. But for me specifically, God was like, nah, girl, you need to have some kids and I'm going to tell you about yourself. Like it is, it's supposed to be your, I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, both to will and to do according to his good purpose. Yes, is.
01:27:29
Speaker
If I'm not the same person that you see in church, like, I got a problem. It should permeate every area of your life, absolutely. It's ah not going to happen overnight. And I think that is the misconception there. Yeah. Right. Sanctification is lifelong. It's true.
01:27:51
Speaker
I did not grow up with these certain with this terminology. And when I would hear it, my reaction was to push. That doesn't mean anything to me. So therefore, I you're trying to do something right now.
01:28:06
Speaker
And I don't like it. You know, like I was very defensive. Sure. What I can look back at as an adult now in hindsight is once you have this understanding and it that that light bulb goes off and you can make those connections, it's not something that can ever be taken from you. That is so freeing because it gave it gave me permission to kind of explore things and be wrong and that be okay and ask a question and that be healthy and encouraged.
Reflection and Apology
01:28:45
Speaker
You know, i my heart breaks. Obviously, hearing more of these details of of what you had to go through as ah as a child. But I'm so grateful and mesmerized, too, at, like, you know, watching it happen.
01:29:05
Speaker
you know, in real time. Yeah. And then having the opportunity to then say, oh my gosh, like, let's sit for a second and take a look back. We're good. But like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, all appropriate things like it's, you know, i i don't want to minimize it.
01:29:24
Speaker
God's goodness doesn't minimize that this was heartbreaking. You know, it wrecked my family. It really, changed the trajectory of my life and in some ways not great. And in some ways, like the best thing about this is like what it gave me was a contrast for who God is not. Right.
01:29:46
Speaker
Like I was fully immersed in the counterfeit for so long that seeing the real, it was like so easy to recognize it. And that's a gift. Like what what the enemy intended for evil, God used um for my good. and so but But it is right and appropriate to grieve those things that were lost. My childhood and the ways in which the gospel was misrepresented also by me.
01:30:15
Speaker
I misrepresented the gospel in this situation. And i want us I want to sit with that for a minute because for so long, I was looking for an apology that's not coming.
01:30:27
Speaker
Probably. i mean, anything's possible. And I do pray by name for specific leaders still. Regardless, like I was looking ah for a long time for an apology that I don't expect, um thinking that somehow that would make things better and it it won't restore what was lost. God has, so you know, tenfold restored what was lost in so many different ways. I recognized recently I owe an apology.
01:30:59
Speaker
Like if I believe that what was wrong what was happening in this organization was wrong, and I do unequivocally believe that it was wrong, I participated.
01:31:10
Speaker
i spread that. I misrepresented the gospel. I pursued people in that way. And I'm sorry, like I own that. So whether it was me that you experienced that through, or you friend that's hearing the sound of my voice, whether you are someone who experienced spiritual abuse and church abuse in this organization, I've used enough details that if you were in it, you know which one it is. um But if you don't, you don't need to know it's okay, because there's a bunch of them, unfortunately. Wherever you find yourself in this story, knowing that you were exploited, abused, and the gospel gospel was misrepresented to you, let me apologize to you.
01:31:55
Speaker
That's not right. That shouldn't have happened. not right. That shouldn't have happened. And that is not who Jesus is. And I am sorry.
01:32:05
Speaker
i am sorry that you were abused. I am sorry that you were exploited. i am sorry that you were led astray. I'm sorry that you were fearful. I'm sorry that you were misinformed and miseducated and deceived and lied to.
01:32:22
Speaker
i am sorry. That was not right. And I also just want to say like, ah Speaking from a place of total experience, the love of God is infinitely more powerful than the most powerful, carefully crafted lie that could ever, ever, ever be crafted by the enemy.
01:32:46
Speaker
So if you have rejected Jesus because of what you experienced, I'm telling you with all of my heart, it is worth another look.
01:33:00
Speaker
And I
Purpose of Sharing Stories
01:33:01
Speaker
think that's probably a great place to leave it Thank you for kind of walking through all of that because I know that it wasn't easy, you yeah I certainly felt led, like, and I was like, don't want to that. Yes. It's like, well, I just, I appreciate you walking us through all of that when it obviously brings up wounds and it and you were clearly being obedient to to to God to share because it's going to shed light on people's experience while
01:33:41
Speaker
not within the same organization or everything being the same, there's a lot of parallels that we can all kind of draw from our experiences. So for that.
01:33:54
Speaker
Thank you. thank Yeah. Yeah.
Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
01:33:56
Speaker
I hope that um what you take away from this is not poor Annemarie, that's a really messed up childhood. Like, don't hear that. The details that were shared were not to so to victimize me.
01:34:09
Speaker
They were to paint a picture for how... comprehensive this experience was and how all that was needed by the Lord was the tiniest little faith of a mustard seed. um And and he has radically and beautifully transformed my life, um even in the midst of Just a really, really, really awful foundation.
01:34:38
Speaker
who So hear that. Don't hear this poor girl. Like, don't hear that at all. Hear God is good. and Period. And bigger. Yes. Bigger than all the things that we go through yeah or can imagine.
01:34:53
Speaker
We are just really glad that you all were here with us to kind of go through all of these stories and just to kind of walk through this experience with with us and with Anne Marie. So we just want to say thank you and just remind you guys that this podcast is a love letter. It's our love letter to God.
01:35:13
Speaker
And if it benefits, inspires, or otherwise blesses you, we give all the glory to him. And we're really glad that um you're here. And we hope that you come with us to join us on the next Twist and Turn.
01:35:27
Speaker
um And thank you for listening. um If you loved our podcast, the best compliment that you could give us is to share it with a friend. So just find that little button and share it. And um yeah, we hope to see you next time.
01:35:42
Speaker
Bye.