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Episode 17: The End of The Beginning
136 Plays8 months ago
A long time ago… in a windy city, far, far away… Your hosts Nick Sperry, Andrew Kouba and Sam Graebner sound off on the recent news on Atomic Mass Games announcing the end to Star Wars Armada and Star Wars X-Wing.
Watch 312’s announcement on its involvement with the X-Wing Alliance: https://youtu.be/FPLH-E68IM0?si=i6Z9Dhgo64GJMZeb
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Background
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to the 312 Squadron podcast. My name is Nick Sperry. And I'm Andrew Kubo. And I'm Samuel Grabner.
Announcement of Game's End
00:00:11
Speaker
Well, guys, it is finally happens. A lot to talk about. um it you know it's it We've gotten the announcement. We've gotten the thing. um we'll We'll dive into that in a moment.
Emotional Reactions
00:00:21
Speaker
But um of course, just a couple of days after we get this news, it's good to come together and have this honest conversation. um ah you know I think it's important to wear our hearts on our sleeves and our emotions on our sleeves when we talk about this because it's it's kind of a gut punch to read, something that we all kind of felt a little bit maybe in the back of our minds as a very strong, maybe it's to some likely possibility or outcome has finally come to fruition. And we've seen the official text on the webpage and the announcement from the official company that handles
00:00:52
Speaker
Star Wars X-Wing that the game will no longer be supported or developed beyond this OP season of 2024 to 2025.
Future Prospects and Community Role
00:01:01
Speaker
I want to first ask you guys, Sam, I'll i'll throw it over to you. what is If you were to just give me one word to describe how you feel, besides just like disappointed, I think is an obvious one, but like, right what's an impression, a word to describe the impression of of when you read that for yourself? Freedom? Like, so i I always felt super constrained by 2.5, having come from 1.0, missing most of 2.0, playing 2.5 and jumping into all of the objective play and scenarios and and all of the extra layers of the game. um Now we can do what we want to do.
Community Empowerment
00:01:48
Speaker
which is potentially still play objectives, potentially still play 2.5, but ah we're not forced to, so there's freedom in it. It's exciting. Andrew, what about you? Yeah, I would say bittersweet would be my my word. And so saying that you know it it's it's bitter that they're not developing it, that it's no longer going to be supported officially in like the tournament capacity. um But I will say sweet in the fact that we know we can finally be let off the hook. We have an answer to what is coming in the future. And it also gives the community freedom to fully take over this game. and
00:02:31
Speaker
make it better. Yeah. we're and we' I like Sam. You said freedom. I think bittersweet is another one. i I'm still processing it. I've been kind of, Sam knows, it's been kind of my head deep in kind of creating some points for fun to test and stuff. And we'll get to that in a bit. But yeah I've kind of had some moments to to like sit here and process it. And it's just kind of, it's definitely, um it's surreal and, but not in the you know
Processing the News
00:03:00
Speaker
a great way. its it's it's one of those things where i i feel like
00:03:05
Speaker
This is going to be bear with me as I'm bad with my extreme and dramatic analogies, but I feel like it's like you take your dog, your three year old dog, perfectly healthy to the vet because they have like a toothache and the vet says, I think we need to put your dog down. The toothache is just too much. I just felt like this game could have been prevented from going down this. It was very preventable. That's how I feel. I feel like it's like it doesn't make sense, right? It's like, how did we get here? How could my dog need to be put down because of a toothache? Doesn't make any sense.
Official Announcements Review
00:03:32
Speaker
yeah The game is being put down. And it sucks. um So i I mean, I don't know if I fully agree with like that analogy. Well, it does. It does. I think it works, to be honest, because it doesn't make any sense. It's like here we are after worlds. You can draw the you can draw the comparisons. Like the healthiness of of the animal is like worlds and how many excellent players showed up.
00:03:58
Speaker
And like the fact that we were all feeling really good about where we were at and then you get told by the person that you know represents or as the profession of like we're the ones that know we're the ones that are in charge of like the knowledge of telling you how the game is going, how your pet is doing, how healthy they are. And it's time to to walk away.
Community Reaction and History
00:04:19
Speaker
And that's why I feel it's an extreme analogy that some people won't get. I think it works in this case because it the game is healthy. The game is healthy. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying to get at is the game is healthy. I would say that the the heart was healthy. But, you know, it's riddled with all sorts of, you know, cancer sales wasn't good. Right. But yeah.
00:04:40
Speaker
You know, that's that's different. That's not a true thing. That's that's this dog has, you know, like nine different cancers. But the heart and brain work, you know, I don't know, nine different cancers. If like people are still pulling up showing out to play the game, there's no product. That's the thing. Yeah, I'm not able, though. That's the preventable stuff. Yeah. You know, your dog is smoking nine packs a day. So there you go. And you'd be just as confused. How is my dog smoking? I have questions. But anyways, there we are starting us off with a real bizarre analogy that I like as I did on theme with our last recording. um Sorry, I'm going on tangents right now. I am I've gotten to the point where, you know, it's like the the five was a five stages of grief.
Speculation on Community Adaptation
00:05:24
Speaker
Yes. Where it's like you have to process it and there's like denial, um acceptance, and I feel like I've gone through all five stages like all at once. I really don't i don't know i don't know if anyone has gotten to acceptance like quite yet. you Right. Yeah. I think we're all still in the denial and anger period. Yeah, for sure. What I've been doing behind the scenes have kind of been forced into the acceptance stage because things are just moving super fast on the community side. So that's good. um I'll tease a little bit of that. I can't say like too much, but um here we are. I want to read the announcement if you guys don't mind indulging me while I do that really quick, just so people can. Sure, sure.
00:06:05
Speaker
Atomic Mascain saying update on Star Wars X-Wing and Star Wars Armada. It's the title here on the 13th of
Critique of Official Messaging
00:06:10
Speaker
June. After long and careful consideration, we were here today to announce the end of development of Star Wars X-Wing and Star Wars Armada. We are grateful for the community's passion engagement passionate engagement and support over the past few years, rising production costs, global manufacturing, and of course, you got to throw in the pandemic related challenges and made it increasingly difficult to produce high quality pre-paint and miniatures, which ultimately led to the decision to end development. Although development is ending, we are not stepping away from these games entirely. Atomic Mask Games will continue to support tournaments that organize play for both games, with OP kits to be found in your local stores, which is interesting because I still haven't heard any news on that, culminating in the Open World Championship at Adepticon in March 2025. Thank you for your continued support.
00:06:55
Speaker
and dedication. I've got the Asmodee one if you want that as well. Please. Can you read that? Can you? Yeah, actually, yeah, send that to me. I sure if you don't mind. Actually, I think it's in my DMS. If I scroll down to when Chris sent it to me. oh yeah i got it and i got and you got it okay yeah right got it is asthma d We would like to take a moment to express our heartfelt appreciation to the Star Wars X-Wing and Star Wars Armada communities. While development of these games is ending, and we will have a limited quantity of product available for purchase while supplies last, the adventure is far from over. We are here to support Atomic Mask Games through a farewell tour
00:07:31
Speaker
culminating in the Open Worlds Championship at Adepticon in March 2025. This will be a fantastic opportunity for fans to enjoy these games to the fullest with our full support every step of the way. But that's not all. Our dedication to the Star Wars galaxy remains stronger than ever as we're cutting two of our games. Ho, ho, ho! are thrilled to bring you new adventures with engaging expansions and developments in both two games you don't play, Star Wars Shadowpoint and Star Wars Legion. Let's go! Thank you for being a part of our community. Asmodee giving us one third or two thirds of this post to talk about X-wing and then immediately telling us to buy into a different game. Really appreciate. Respect that one. So those are the two posts circulated back to back on the 13th.
Community Support and Event Planning
00:08:19
Speaker
What do you guys think of those two? The Asmodee one pissed me off. Yeah. Yeah, it fucking pisses me off, man. It's pretty.
00:08:29
Speaker
The the the as many one is is bald faced and and like bordering on kind of cruel. Yeah, it's like just a reminder that your game is dead in the two games that we love or or you know, we want you to go and buy those because they're doing well. Right. I felt like that was a kind of ah like you said, cruel is a word for it. Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you care about a game being supported, you know, those are two that are being supported. I mean, I think the writing was on like, like you knew what was going to be the message when they said X-Wing and Armada together, you know. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Did you did did it? Did it rub you the wrong way? What Asmodee said that tried to like push people to another game in the same. No, like i guess I didn't like rub me the wrong way just because I feel like as a community, we've known this was coming for a long time. Like it it definitely my dog.
00:09:26
Speaker
It wasn't surprising to me. Unfortunately, and unfortunately like this is like what we've been talking about for the last three episodes of the podcast. is you know is it Is it finally over? And we had some theories about what it would look like, but we knew that even if it was sticking around and they didn't come out with this, it would be like low effort no matter what. So I was kind of happy that we now officially just have an answer. Yeah, I mean, I think the quote unquote like so. So atomic mass games should have mentioned something about the farewell tour, but as he does.
AMG's Handling and Challenges
00:10:01
Speaker
So it's kind of like, hey, like let's all walk to the graveyard together, holding your corset and your game or you get your game as using the words farewell tour, but but amg not I felt was was was glaring. Like I thought that was an interesting choice of words to use farewell tour. I think it's also something that didn't need to be in there. But at least we now know that they're not planning on supporting the game beyond.
00:10:24
Speaker
this OP season, at least that's what a farewell tour means to me. Oh, for sure. I yeah, I mean, I don't think that they are going to support organ. Like this is the last year for organized play as is supported by AMG. Yeah. Did you guys see a Depticon's post about about this? Yes, I did. They are still supporting X-Wing going forward as best they can. Yeah, I'm trying to let me try to find that post. Armada, X-Wing, and Adepticon, this R2 unit of yours seems a little beat up. You want a new one? Not in your life. Me and that droid have been through a lot together. By now, the news of Atomic Mask Games' decision to end the development of Star Wars Armada and Star Wars X-Wing has circulated, and understandably, this revelation is disappointing to many in the community. We also understand that sometimes difficult decisions have to be made.
00:11:19
Speaker
As far as what happens to X-Wing and Armada, always in motion the future is. But one thing we can say for sure is that both games have a place at Adepticon 2025 and beyond. Even after the world's open next year, Adepticon will continue to work with our partners and the community to ensure that both systems have a home at the convention. See you at the rendezvous point and then they link to AMG's post about that we just read.
Sustainability and Community Efforts
00:11:45
Speaker
That's awesome. That that post is really interesting because it almost felt like it was written by a fan of the game. Right.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah, but I also think that you know if you've ever been to Adepticon, they know that there's a strong community behind it. They know how many people the game draws in. So Adepticon is not in any. That's what our Twitch chat's saying, too. Yeah, it's not a surprise. They did say more words than AMG did about X-Wing, though, if that was a longer post. Yeah. I mean, like they they know how much how much attendance it draws in. So they want to keep this this train running as long as the the fans do. Yeah, so shout out to Adepticon. We appreciate that. um Yeah. Do you guys think, you you know, it was it was 2020, end of 2020, early 2021. I don't remember the exact timestamp date when there was a reorg and FFG kind of lost tabletop games and just moved on the card games and board games. And then AMG became the tabletop game company for Asmodee. Yeah. um Do you guys think
00:12:45
Speaker
and And I know it's going to be easy to be like, oh, well, like business wise, it just wouldn't have, but like, do you think it would have been better if the game, if if the game couldn't be shepherded? I don't even think that's a word, but upheld by AMG. Do you think it would have been better to try one more studio? what ah or what is just better to just let the game slowly die and drag it out for a year before we actually hear the news. The game is done. We're done with the game. yeah I mean, yes, Samuel, if you want to take this one first. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm of two minds. ah The first is that really like, yes, it would have been better. It would have been more exciting. It would have been probably less on AMG's plate to try and shepherd a brand new game in
00:13:35
Speaker
Shatterpoint along with a well established game in x-wing along with everything else they're doing but the The second is that like I don't know I think once once ah FFG got removed from the game the writing was just on the
Pandemic Impact on Competitive Scene
00:13:52
Speaker
wall in in general like the It seems like from everything we've heard that sustain the games, the game was having a sustainability issue. And like, frankly, we were kind of running out of stuff for them to produce and make for us. It's a game. It's a big game. And and it's been around for a long time, like, what was it, 2012 that the that came out? Yeah, like that's that's a long time. It's a lot of contents, a lot of product.
00:14:25
Speaker
Probably too much content and product on the front end. Yeah. um I mean, I partially disagree. I think at least in terms of support, you can there's ways that you can do like scenarios, card packs, stuff that just keeps things interesting at a low cost for them, like lower overhead. But in terms of ships, like I was in the camp that we didn't need more ships because we had so many. Right. I mean, honestly, we the community was asking for reprints more than anything else. But I don't know if shepherding, if pushing this between a different studio would have made a difference. The issues behind X-wing's bottom line for the stakeholders that matter for these companies was still at risk. So moving it back to to FFG or moving it to another studio, I think just draws this process out and just drags it along and it doesn't fix anything.
00:15:19
Speaker
especially when we know that FFG after all of their layoffs, like they're still working with a diminished studio too. So just in my opinion, just be the same problems that you would have a AMG and now would just be directed at FFG. So I think that this is the best case scenario as what we have like right now. It's it's really interesting to think about from 20. From like the start of the sea of um 2.0 in 2018 to 2024 or will be 2025. We've had three world championships. Yeah, it'll be it'll be four. I guess technically it'll be four by next year. It'll be one before COVID for 2.0. So only ever one world championship for 2.0, which still blows my mind. Yeah, that's three.
00:16:11
Speaker
three So between, so that's what, that's five years, one, ah over the course of five, almost six years, really um having just a few world championships ah for the game, I think is what makes it hard. And you have to just, you have to accept and acknowledge the pandemic is the pandemic, right? yeah It is, it happened. And that's why this happened. But it's just really difficult to stomach how we kind of felt like we had we had leveled up the game and and and created new additions of the game. And then just kind of moved on quickly to the next one and then only gotten a couple, a short spell with what we have now before walking away.
00:16:52
Speaker
entirely. So when people, you know, obviously people looking back at 2.0, well, it was getting stale. And for those that played online a lot or just played during the pandemic with their friends and consistently still played, I get it. i was But in terms of OP, like it didn't really have much of a lifespan because of COVID. Yeah, for sure. but I mean, I would honestly say the pandemic supercharged the competitive scene. Like that's what got people playing online, got people talking and meeting each other from all over the world and probably saved the game. I mean, honestly, yeah, I think Covid was actually probably one of the best things that could have happened to to X-Wing in from the competitive standpoint. You know, even even if we weren't in person, i people were playing more X-Wing than ever.
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah, which is from a business perspective, I think if you're like, ah ah you know, an executive at Asmodee, it's frustrating because people are getting to try out your game. and And if anything, it's still kind of like free publicity, but people are like playing your game for free. And I think it was they always had a comp they were always struggling with that and trying not to to show that they were paying attention to the meta during COVID, even though FFG was, because they because it was on Tabletop Simulator, which has like licensing issues they have with LFL. So they that's what AMG has even told me to into my face, is about they can't really associate.
00:18:15
Speaker
with tabletop simulator in any way. So on one hand, it saved the game and it got a lot of people into the game and got people to try things that they couldn't do with the product that was unavailable or they couldn't afford, which is great from a consumer perspective to be able to demo a game to that capacity and just keep playing it safely while there's a huge pandemic out there. But then like business wise, you know, is on one hand, you people are upset that people are still using COVID as an excuse. But from a board game perspective and what an executive with Asmodee would feel. It's definitely – they didn't get to make any money really a lot of money off of that. yeah It's still translated to sales but not to what they would have hoped for. Right. i mean But i mean I would say that like I think one of the reasons why you know they wouldn't be going after tabletop simulators is because those are the type of people that would buy the physical product. I mean what i also think that this is just an issue of –
00:19:07
Speaker
Competitive X-Wing players are not the core market for X-Wing sales. like We're not the drivers. The drivers are are, one, casual players, but then also people who just like the models and are going to put them on their desk um and and have a little like like countertop fleet, um but without like playing the game. So, you know, in that regard, I don't think table tabletop simulator helps them bring people into the competitive sphere. But I that's, I think, where the the issues lie with, you know, why I don't want to throw shade at the people behind the development of X-Wing, you know, at the at the at AMG or at FFG is because, you know, they're in love with the competitive scene. And that that part of it has been growing. And we've seen that growth happen since the pandemic.
00:19:57
Speaker
like in person. um But the I think the unfortunate reality is that we are just not the core market for that.
Market Dynamics and Player Types
00:20:05
Speaker
And I think that that's what you know, even what they saw was that if they're coming out with like card packs, scenario packs, things like that, hoping to to aim at a more casual market while giving stuff for the competitive one, the competitive people are the ones who are are buying that product. And that just isn't as big an audience as the casual collectors are. Right. ah Anecdotally, my the casual collector is you know my my boss's boss who had a conversation with me about X-Wing and was like, oh yeah, I've got a closet full of unused 1.0 ships and 2.0 stuff that I bought and never never used and spent all this money on and and never never got to play the game because of COVID. And it's like, yeah, I get it. That is that is absolutely the case.
00:20:51
Speaker
um Now, we in this in the live production studio that we got to record in Rockford, we talked about kind of like Embracer Group. and asthma D and AMG and just kind of the ladder of like superiority, of course, being like the parent company and then like the main master company, the owner of asthma D and obviously Embracer is in a situation where they're like splitting off their theyre like assets and trying to sell asthma D separately. And that that I think now was the time for them to just make this decision because of the bigger,
00:21:28
Speaker
kind of looming situation that I know a lot of people, I mean, on one hand, I understand not really wanting to, you know, not even needing to think about it or whatever, but it's important context um on the business side, because I think it's easy to just be like AMG bad. And trust me, like I do think they botched it. um I will will get there a little bit, but it's it was just kind of you The writing was on the wall, as Sam said, like all the way back to I think interesting, Sam, that you mentioned that when it went over to AMG, you felt like there was almost a little bit of a sign, or or and there was a lot of uncertainty upon the you know across the community.
00:22:05
Speaker
about what this meant, about a different studio who didn't create X-Wing and didn't seem to know too much about X-Wing, because why would they? you know They didn't work on the game being responsible for it, and it didn't work out. um But they weren't really set
Innovation and Community Leadership
00:22:22
Speaker
up to succeed either. I think they were lazy on certain things and could have done some things that prolonged. the lifespan of the game a little bit longer, but I still think in the next year or so, we probably would have gotten to this point anyways. Um, just, you find the wells run dry and you're no, there's no reinforcements on the way. And you are trying to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. And they, they went to 2.5 and kind of injected their own idea of how to make the game better. And in some of the things I thought worked well, and then a lot of other things were rough and some things just didn't work. And here we are.
00:22:57
Speaker
What I find fascinating is so ah over the past couple of days since the announcement, um I dived into 2.0 legacy a little bit just to dip my toe in just to see what was going on and played a couple of games. And the difference, because like I mentioned, I didn't play a lot of 2.0. But the the difference between like just set up like the actual like physically like getting the game on the table and getting rolling was at least like a 15 minute difference. Night and day. Yeah, just night and day. Like it's just like, oh, OK, we can just start playing now. We don't have to roll and put place ah objectives and set everything up and roll again. And it's just yeah, it's just it's it's night and day.
00:23:41
Speaker
um So I think in a lot of ways, like what they were trying to do had some merit to it and in some ways is still good. But man, they really just like tacked on a lot of stuff. to There's a lot of layers. Yeah. Yeah. Two point. It was very simple, simply structured. Yes. You're just like, all right, you know, throw down my three or four ships with like a few upgrades and just dogfight for 75 minutes. Yep. And you get so much more game out of it. It's just yeah, it's. I'm a little, I'm a little 2.0 pilled right now. Oh, okay. Yeah. I know Andrew probably disagrees with, with, with that. Um, but I'm not going to speak for you. Like, like, I mean, I'm not, I'm not going to yuck anybody's yum. Um, I think that i appreciate but I think that, no, like I had, I had fun playing 2.0. Um, I I'm just personally just had more fun with 2.5. I do like the strategy elements of obstacle placement, uh, turn zero and planning through your opening.
00:24:42
Speaker
um I think it does add a lot of cool complexity to the game. um But i mean i will I will say that we're going to talk about this like later. As far as communities keeping things alive, the 2.0 community who really loved that did a great job at keeping up with points, making sure the new content was integrating into 2.0, keeping their scenes alive and running. And I think that you know that's just an awesome framework that we're going to have. and And it gives me a lot of faith that
00:25:13
Speaker
you know, X-Wing as a whole, even if AMG's not a part of it, is far from done. Yeah, I mean, I i say good riddance. Like, it's, I don't hate AMG. I'm I'm tired of it. Like, they they let us down whether you can say, oh, well, business. Yeah, I just cited all the thing, the added context, um that didn't help their cause. But they, you know, i they never really, it wasn't their game. And it felt like you just kind of got that vibe that it wasn't their game. And, you know, it. Yeah. It's like that. It's the meme with the guy with his girlfriend and he's looking back at the other girl and it's like MCP for them. And, you know, I
Criticism and Communication Issues
00:25:50
Speaker
mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a smaller studio. I think that they're also given a tiny. fun so Yeah, I mean, right. But they're given a directive on what to prioritize and it's going to be, you know, what's making money. Like, I don't ever want to say that they weren't passionate about the game or X-Wing because I think that they were. But I mean, I will say, though, it they just the time
00:26:12
Speaker
was not given to X-Wing the same as it was their other products that has officially been stated now. um And what's great is now it's the stewards are going to be a community that is willing to put in a lot of time. And now we have the freedom to actually, you know, make the game what we want. And I get to take my dog to another vet and the vet is the community that's the community. And like your dog just has a toothache will give you an antibiotic. And there you go. See, I'm right i'm I'm doubling down like Jar Jar or luke Lucas double down on Jar Jar. And I think that it's the the the dog is passed on and he's now a force ghost. Oh, no. The dog is a force ghost. My dog! My dog!
00:26:55
Speaker
The dog's gonna be with you forever as a forest goat. As a forest goat. Exactly, just it's always there, always there indeed. Smoking, smoking, smoking. Smoking, just continuing to smoke. a Smoking dog, a smoking forest ghost dog is the takeaway, ladies and gentlemen, from this podcast episode. ah Nothing else, the smoking forest ghost dog. I'm a fan art of this. Yes, that's a great idea. I do know some people, Sam, we can definitely make those connections. For me, the cigarettes would be like some of the low levels of toxicity that goes through any sort of fandom. Let's talk about about that. toxicity here because I think we've done a pretty reasonable job of citing maybe some some corners and minority parts of the community that were toxic around AMG and the changeover and transition everything. But I do want to talk about a little bit of the maybe more passive aggressive toxicity I thought that we got from AMG or at least that's personally my opinion that I feel like we got from AMG when it came to just kind of like handling
00:28:03
Speaker
a fan base that is very passionate about their game and kind of just like. Oh, I thought we were going to talk about the toxicity of and all the the X-wing fail like some of the X-wing. No, we talk about that too much, man. and We talk about that stuff all the time. Like, why can't we talk about the fact that, like, when the the first the first like kind of post about the change of X-wing, they're basically like that there was there were there was language. It just could have just been proofed or just changed a little bit that just made it seem like it's the way that they were talking about the game, it didn't get it. I didn't understand what they were trying to say. It was confusing. And that was the start of their communication issues, because they were known for not being good at communicating. And then they were just like they hope they started a discord and they they must have thought to themselves, well, what about all the fans of this game that we keep ignoring and not giving them any updates for like so many months, almost a year? Well, they're probably going to ask about the game. It's like, oh let's just ban them.
00:29:00
Speaker
yeah i'd be out of yeah i don't know some of them probably deserved it but again we've talked about that part already about the toxic x-wing fans whatever but like they didn't help they like were throwing gasoline on the fire a little bit as well and so it It's just like, guys, why are you? You can't blame people for wanting to know what the hell is going on. Like, it's been so long. It's not like it's been two months or six months. It's been over a year. Like, it's a long time. It's it turns out it's because they weren't doing anything, but they couldn't tell anybody that they weren't going to do anything. I'm sure it was up in the air, whether they would or not. And they just they couldn't communicate that. Yeah, that's what I think. But yeah, I mean, it's when they weren't want to say anything.
00:29:45
Speaker
Probably not. like Like not even like we'll have updates in the future. That's like a nothing burger, but still something. I mean, that's kind of what they've been saying the whole time. Well, recently until like this post, but like there is definitely times where they were just trying to like ignore or like ban people from their Twitch chats and their discords that were like reacting with X W I N G. Like that's like a heinous thing to do. It's discord. It's social media. Like what are you going to expect? Yeah, I mean, so but I mean, what I would say, so we we talked about, we talked about the the toxicity of fans towards AMG. We've done that before. I would say that, you know, the there's a mourning period that's going to be happening because if you're a fan of X-Wing, then we were all in a relationship with somebody who didn't care about us. Like, and and and I'm not saying didn't care about us, but acted like, you know, we weren't around.
Hope for Community-Driven Future
00:30:36
Speaker
Um, that is its own type of trauma for sure. The, the one toxicity that I guess I was going to try to reference was, uh, the community to itself. Um, and, and a lot of the fallout that I've just seen, like there's a lot of, there's some vitriol. that's happening in like Discord groups, Facebook groups, people being like, this is why I burned all my X-Wing stuff three months ago. you know like that like That kind of like that kind of like reaction. and there's a lot There's a lot of processing that goes into it. There's a ah definitely a feeling of of mourning, knowing that there's
00:31:16
Speaker
no captain officially at the helm so far. But, you know, I just hope that as a community that we're not turning in on ourselves. There's a lot of like great and cool things that are are still yet to happen. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, dramaticically why not which is great. And then second. Yeah. I mean, honestly, at this point, AMG is done with it. You know, I don't care how people start to start to move on. Yeah. I mean, AMG as a company might not be around that. Yeah, I just I think I think what I think we gave them a lot of slack, maybe a little just we were super patient with them as we should have been for a
Business Context and Global Collaboration
00:31:54
Speaker
while. But then it just kind of like we just kept making that argument. It's like, you know, I think some yeah folks were just constantly just being like, it's you know, give them some slack on some slack. It's like this. Yeah, I mean, no, I mean, I you know, I was definitely
00:32:08
Speaker
one of those people, i I still am, by, by, by giving them some slack, I mean that I was saying, you know, I don't think that any, that they're going to do anything for the X-wing community on their own besides the bare minimum. But, you know, I'm just hoping for a better future where, yeah you know, that might be the case. And if it's not going to be a better future, I'm happy that we have the one we have where we're finally just released from you know, the not knowing. Yeah. I mean, and that gets us to kind of the main topic besides the obvious that we've already been talking about is just like the community and just the future. And, um you know, it it might ring hollow to some people to be like, oh, the community will take over. What does that mean? I think that that can be there can be a lot of infighting, a lot of disagreements. So we in the past, like when two point zero became two point five, a lot of people quit and tried to keep a legacy server and
00:33:02
Speaker
And more power to them, might nothing against that. But it didn't work out the first time they tried to do that. It was a mess. Sure. And it was a lot it was you know a lot of people, very divisive. so Oh, for sure. I can tell you. Oh, go ahead. Oh, I know. i But I was going to say, but in the long term, it was going to succeed. um And I think it's at a great place now. I mean, that was the one thing i when this whole thing was happening, people, you know, being like, oh, they should never switch to 2.5. And I would just comment being like, well, there is actually a really huge 2.0 community that has the squad builder everything. It's good to know, like.
00:33:36
Speaker
um But that's gonna be the trend the transition of anything. You just, you don't know how it's gonna really fully turn out. Like what we have right now as a community is like a handful of silly putty. And if you like squeeze it really tight, you don't know like which finger gap. The the putty is gonna like shoot out in so it can go a number of different ways. I like that one yeah what are these analogies i don't have Some theories, but I mean, but the thing is is anything that's not fully formed yet can go any number of directions sure I I have some theories though on on
00:34:10
Speaker
what I think is going to be coming up next. so just you know A lot of you guys know that since 2019 when we started this channel and in streaming to where we are now and and the amount of explosive growth we've experienced, we've gained a lot of opportunities to stream events to um interview the developers of X-wing at the time atomic mass games a little over a year ago we got to do that. We just gained a lot of notoriety um as as 312 Squadron and that's given us the opportunity and the honor to be able to be directly involved as a community stakeholder and ensuring the game is
00:34:48
Speaker
taken over properly by the community. And when I say community, I don't just mean like our Discord or like our local players here in Chicagoland. I'm talking about like I am working directly with the head community members from across the the world. Not just America, but like every major country that, or even the smaller countries that have an X-Wing community, they are represented in this initiative. So it's really exciting. I'm very honored to be a part of it. it's There's a lot of people, and so there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen right now. I think we're all just trying to... We're doing a good job of getting on the same page about things. um By the time this episode is is posted, there will have been an announcement.
00:35:34
Speaker
from ah all of us on, um you know, we're here, this is what we have planned. And it's going to be kind of a ah long road ahead as we are respecting the fact that there is still an official OP season through Adepticon, but that doesn't mean we're not going to be working on what's after that. And there will be a lot to look forward to um before Adepticon in terms of what to expect. um you know We're talking about the best way to continue the lifespan of the game so that it is sustainable and exciting and has room to grow even more. I'm not talking about like designing new product ourselves or anything like that, but just keeping the game fresh.
00:36:15
Speaker
and um ah yeah some Some people are probably going to reach out to me and in in in ask me to like inject what they want. um And with all due respect, i I want to be a part of the conversation and I will be and I have my own own influence. But the wheels of progress are going to be moving slowly if you want to do this correctly. And I i need to make sure that Everybody is represented.
Community Initiatives and Rule Updates
00:36:38
Speaker
So I will not be able to be your personal messenger when it comes to putting what you want into the game. We have a lot of biases. So just i know keep that in mind. We have a lot of ideas and a lot of them are really good. Some of them are weird and crazy. And I'm an ideas man, an idea man who is crazy and weird sometimes as well. um And so shot my my sister and Nick and then you were like, all right, we'll see. Like no.
00:37:04
Speaker
So there's a few people that have reached out, and it's yeah it's it's just I have to really because I can't promise anything. But um in the meantime, I just want to let everyone know that ah us as 312, independent of this larger committee, have created some points ah points update that people can have fun with and practice and test and gather data for, which absolutely could be ah pivotal in reporting to the the overall committee in terms of what we've noticed about and points. And this is good. Like this is what I see the future of X-Wing kind of going towards um is that like you have Omaha and Texas Hold'em like different like styles of poker. Magic the Gathering has like the same thing like there is EDH, CEDH, Gladiator, all these like different like formats, some of them in Highlander, some of them they're like regional specific. Like I think that X-Wing we're going to have like
00:38:00
Speaker
the Chicago rules, the Boston rules, the you know Helsinki rules like set, the UK X-Wing, like each kind of community is going to start off initially creating their own ideas on what they like with the game. And we're all going to be kind of sharing back and forth what we like, probably going to be a lot more squad builders running around there. But I think then at some point they probably will all converge into what would be recognized as like the new x-wing.
00:38:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah, some some folks, Sam, I appreciate you being a part of like testing and and trying it out, even if you guys decide to. Very competent players decide to start hitting obstacles through your testing phase. I don't know what you're doing. But I appreciate you being involved early on in this. And a lot of people are really excited. like I posted on our Patreon for everybody, free, paid, whatever. And we've gone 80 people and joined our Patreon already to see these points. like people and like That's like, oh, 80 people. But that's a lot in 24 hours. That's a lot of people. That's a lot people more excited, but some people are taking it too seriously. Even though I'm a part of this like committee, I am not going to be the person that decides the points. So stop freaking out if I put Sam Wessel at nine points and for a first iteration. I just don't want people practic practicing list with Sam Wessel. OK, just I want people to practice the things I changed in CIS, for example. Hey, it's like it's as exciting to have new points. Finally, it is. People are passionate about it. Some people are just I think
00:39:29
Speaker
thinking a little too much of it in terms of just like what it means, the the overall implications. It's just like, no, this is all data. but right will like get it Right. Get it on the table. Test it out. Yeah. It's easy to miss the forest for the trees with this one. Yeah. Also, yeah if you think of something totally busted, awesome. Play that. That sounds fun. Like, you know, try, like see if it actually is too busted. and Yeah, exactly. Like ah I made Captain Phasma three points with two loadout. Like there you go. But Maoris went up to four. Maoris is four points in Tomax. SL is four points. But ah Duchess became from went from five to four, for example, stuff like that. ah Boba nine to eight. Look, there's like there's right. I mean, and there's a lot of things that like we've all known for a while, like needed to be changed. So, you know, there's a lot of good stuff to like pull the trigger on that.
00:40:23
Speaker
And not to bring up the AMG thing again, but it it's not like they didn't have their own biases ah about how they wanted points to play out. like Thank you. They absolutely did. like You can't look at the way Republic Jedi were treated after after with 2.5 points like and not say like, oh yeah, they just were reacting they were super reactive to the way 2.0 played out. like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i and We all have our bias. Right. We do. I will say the the one great thing now is that you don't need to buy a starter set vader anymore. ah Yeah, you triumph.
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah, you can we we all win. Yeah. Yeah. yeah ada And actually, that's a great thank you, Andrew, for mentioning the stars. That's because that was a great idea that had a ton of pilots that were terrible in it. Not all of them, obviously, yeah but like, man, they botched that, too. ah Those are things they could have avoided, but they didn't know how to like, you know, can i Can I say that overall, I don't think they did a very good job with designing stuff for X-Wing because we never got a single, besides the starter set, a single ship release from Atomic Mask Games that wasn't like passed over from FFG's plans. Right. Yeah. I mean, it was the it was like I said, it was the lowest amount of effort period.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, you know but yeah, again, um as freedom is the word that Sam said, a there's a lot to be excited about. um it's It's definitely easy to feel mopey and disappointed, and I am too. I feel disappointed, but I also am seizing the day, taking this opportunity to give people a chance to play games where they're they're playing stuff that they would never play and having a ton of fun doing it. Like people, the reception overall has been really good, and I'm excited to play a bigger role moving forward and in the bigger picture of the game. But in the meantime, 312 is offering an alternative to the game that, you know, ah we are working on a squad builder for it. By the time this comes out, it might have already you be released for our points. And so I just, you know, just want to clarify again, this is not a representation of the committee that I am a part of. It is something I did on my own.
00:42:30
Speaker
Yeah, and like i'm I'm really excited to to be a part of like this. and And I'm excited to get back on the table playing X-Wing. Super stoked to try these new points and and seeing what we can do to like keep this game going at the current competitive level. Because we're going to be out there streaming. We're going to be out there still putting together events at good games. And I'm sure that Adepticon is more than willing to work with the community to keep you know worlds and to keep X-Wing happening there as well. you know I don't see things like the the Lone Star open you know going away anytime soon.
00:43:09
Speaker
Um, can we, do you guys mind if we quickly pivot to a couple of things that our audience asks? Yeah, go for it. All right. So Bender asks, uh, what kind of quote unquote silver lining slash blessing in disguise can we take from this situation to pass along to new players that have just joined or that we can use to still try and recruit players to a quote unquote dead game? I mean, I think that that's what we've been saying all along that, you know, the, the game isn't dead. Their local community is alive and well, and now we're going to have. you know, a better game experience with points being updated more often. It's now under the stewardship of, you know, your local community to make the changes that they see necessary to keep this game going.
Appreciation and Reflection on Game Design
00:43:55
Speaker
I would say that you can tell them that they can look at on any
00:43:58
Speaker
message porter forum, they're not deactivated. They're more people coming in than ever. You know, I mean, even, you know, Nick, when you were talking about the posting the the new points, how we had, you know, 80 new people jump in and take a look at that. Like, to me, that shows that people are hungry for this and that there's a lot of dedicated people that are still excited to play. Couldn't put it better myself. um Are there any, JJ asks, this is a good question, are there any good things from from um AMG that we will miss? Oh boy.
00:44:31
Speaker
um The crazy designs with their cards. I mean, you know. The over-designed SLs, yeah. Yeah. i ah They're fun. I love i like really like flying like some of the new cards. The one thing that I think will miss is like that they didn't have a chance to come out with anything like that for scum or for first order and resistance. They were really onto something with Battle of over battle of Yavin. i like oh i was I thought they were like really onto something there. You know what? i Child over Mandalore, also really good. Battle of Yavin, awesome. Battle over Endor, the scenarios. I will say the scenarios really were awesome.
00:45:14
Speaker
um And then at Adepticon 2, when they were doing their side event, the unconventional warfare, I thought that had a lot of potential to be added to a game state of some kind as well. I thought that was a really cool idea. So they were coming out with some neat things. This was exactly what I was going to hit on was the the the at least the the interesting innovation inside their game that they were putting together. Uh, was fascinating, like their, their.
00:45:48
Speaker
Unconventional Warfare was a ah breath of fresh air for points that were, not that it was an update to points, but just like ah a way to play the game slightly differently, a slightly skewed version that was a super fun. And so I i will miss i will i will miss innovation from a top-down perspective. What we will replace it with will be innovation from a crowdsourced community perspective, which I think will also be interesting. Yeah, for me, um, I think I will miss, I mean, it's something we can still play with and we will, but just like the added layers of strategy behind having to plan around like a scenario. I thought they really were onto something with that. It took me a while to really get into it.
00:46:37
Speaker
But I've played the best I've ever played in my life at X-Wing in 2.5. I was onto something with being a good player in 2.0, but I hit like another level in 2.5, and the game got harder. Yeah. yeah It got and way more ships, more double mods, more layers. more you know ah the Running through the gauntlet of Gen Con through 2.5 versus when we played in tournaments in 2.0, it's just like twice as hard. It's exhausting. and um It's it's you know as as much as it sounds like me patting myself on the back and be like, oh, you do so good. um Which, of course, but I miss. I do think that they um the way that they looked at that aspect of the game and trying to add influence other ways to be able to strategize, I think will be something that I will, I guess, miss, but still maybe you already will have and continue to have. You know, who knows?
00:47:29
Speaker
i They were onto something with that as well. There were definitely some things that I think if they had more resources or just a little bit more care, however you want to define it, they could have run with it and done a better job than some of the stuff at the very end that we got that I think just wasn't tested properly or as well or as long as it needed to be, or just felt a little more lazy um than what we got at the beginning. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Oh, in the chat here saying, I'll miss playing find the typo on the prize cards and all tarts. That is true. They were they were inexcusably and unacceptably bad when it came to proofreading because they didn't do it. He just didn't do it. Find the game mistake in our preview article. Yeah, let's put linked actions on a on a pilot on an altar for some reason. I'm like, that's almost a deliberate accident right now. So that's a funny one.
00:48:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, as Andrew said, well, as us as as as a 3-1-2, we're going to be doing even more. It's not like, you know, I think some people might say, it's like, oh, what does 3-1-2 do now? People are going ask to ask that at GSP. But I can tell you for both us and GSP, we're we're we're we're here to to be a part of keeping this game alive. It's not an excuse for us to leave. Some people are quitting now. I think we're looking for a reason to quit. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like this is the time to be practicing with new points, even if they're not official. Who cares? The game isn't going to be supported anymore. It doesn't matter if official doesn't mean anything anymore unless you're really dedicated to playing with the same stale points in this OP season at GT's and Adepticon, which, you know, there's nothing no shame in that at
Optimism and Embracing Change
00:49:01
Speaker
all. I might at least I might go to Worlds. I'd like to just to see everybody one last time. It's going to be a bittersweet moment. Right. um But, you know, there's no
00:49:10
Speaker
I think you should be ah embracing thinking and appreciating those who are trying to just inject something and to get people excited about about the game and and the opportunities that we have, because we're no longer beholden to atomic mess games. Can I float a take out there? Please, no, this is for the takes, man. So I've been workshopping this. I think that this game was always, ah and and this may be a little obvious, but I i think that X-Wing has always been a tacit agreement between the community and a company that ran the game about what the game would be.
00:49:49
Speaker
It was never because there's and part of this is because informed by the fact that like the stakes are really low. The stakes are like we play a game that is fun and we enjoy ourselves and we play fun games. This doesn't really change anything. What it changes is just who the agreement is with. It's with each other now instead of just a corporation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. um but That's a good point. I mean, what well said. Nice job, Sam. We might have invite you back.
00:50:24
Speaker
Anytime. Yeah, even though you left us. Hey, hey, we supposed to know that he's yeah he's here. He's in my living room. He's recording for the living room.
00:50:37
Speaker
Yeah, it'd so it's it I feel like the word beholden just like it feels like we, even though we were like grumbling and unhappy and impatient and everything, we were still just kind of like desperately waiting for this company to say like, hey, like, here you go. Right. And now we don't know. Like, it's it's kind of relaxing. Because it's just like, man, they didn't really have our best interests to heart with this game to them. They have all their games. They have like we have our one love. They have several forced relationships and they have to deprioritize and close the door on someone they did with us. And it didn't need to happen. It could have been preventable. Some bad business and in Covid and all these things accumulated into this moment. um But let's seize it.
00:51:23
Speaker
We're gonna make the most of it. I want you all to be patient and open-minded. Again, if you're using this as an excuse to walk away, you are looking for a reason to quit for a while. And that's okay, but just be honest with yourself if that's the case. Don't try to like pop up and make people feel bad or attack people for trying different points or home brewing something, because this this is like the time to do it. Please don't be that person. I will go after you, okay? If you do that, yeah I will call you out. And then also, too, if ah you're out there and you don't know that, you know, there's a 2.0 community, it's out there. You can look for it, too. And then if you're like me in like 2.5, there's going to be people that are willing to play that, too. So if people are still holding out hope, then, yeah, that's great. And I'm so excited to have you on our team. Thank you. um Anything else, guys? ah Hound at four points is really fucking fun. Sorry for swearing.
00:52:18
Speaker
That's it. I think we've we've definitely sworn the plan times before. I don't know why is that. Excuse my language. and Sometimes I feel like it comes. ah It slips out and I was like, that's what I say it. But we definitely have sworn many times before we swear on stream all the time. Yeah, dude. Yeah. And four point. la Yeah. just ah Just again, one last little tease. If you guys want so gamut key is three points. Boba's eight instead of nine. OK, you get a lad at four points. Come check out. You get a three point T sixty five, a three point S.F. let's let you know fixing scum you can technically play triple fires rays for cis which was a mistake i will be rectifying but it's really funny so yeah also uh gory's back gory is six points instead of seven yes i mean because of course
00:53:04
Speaker
Um, more, but I'm making a few more tweaks. I will again, go to our Patreon. We'll have a link to this post with the updated version three documents. We're working with, um, Andre Lind from launch by next. Thank you so much, Andre. You are amazing for working with us to create a browser builder for this to make it even easier to list build. Technically you can quote unquote use illegal list building launch bay to be able to test, but a proper one with the points that we have created being an asset and resource will be super helpful for us. i think yeah So. ab Absolutely, yep. So thank you to everyone.
00:53:41
Speaker
We have met and played with along the way. I know that time seemed tough, but there's a lot to be excited about. it's there's ah There's a sense of freedom. There's a sense of motivation and just opportunity. So things are going to get a lot better. I think started we've already made a lot of progress. Stay tuned and just be a little patient. Again, if you were looking for a reason to quit, you can walk away now. But I think now is the time to get back into X-Wing. um and be eager and happy that maybe the people that were running it you didn't like so much, you don't have to worry about them anymore, whether you hated them or or whatever. I want to thank our partners Strata Strike ah for continuing to be our partner. You can check out their Etsy page to get some incredible gaming components, including that for X-Wing, some amazing precision cut, wood, templates, tokens, and more. You can use coupon code 312Squadron, all one word, 312, capital S.
00:54:35
Speaker
lowercase Q-U-A-D-R-O-N for 15% off your purchase, the entire store. Thank you to our patrons, to everyone that has joined our Patreon recently, and to those who have maintained their commitment to helping 312 Squadron. We literally can't do this without you. We love you very much. And I'm always thinking of you, but in a non-creepy way, of course. Be sure to follow us on Twitch to catch us live. Follow or subscribe to our YouTube channel, like us on Facebook, a yada, yada, yada, and join us in Discord to talk points on all X-wing and non-X-wing related things. We love you all very much. My name is Nick Sperry. And I'm Andrew Kubo. And I'm Samuel Graebner. Thank you for listening.
00:55:21
Speaker
So, do you guys want to hear something really crazy? Yes. Hit me. The AMG announcement came out like an hour after I was laid off. No. No. Oh, no.
00:55:37
Speaker
It's like the weekend in that like music video, like Blighty Lights, when he's like trying to like stumble around like your mind is just warped like what is going on? Oh no, that's awful. Just a one, two punch in the same day. Yeah. Yeah, just right in the solar plexus. Woof. Oh, I'm sorry. On my text thread, like Discord is blowing up with all the people talking about the announcement. And then also my phone is blowing up. It's like, shut up. My phone is blowing up from all my coworkers who also got laid off to. Oh no. Oh, that's awful.
00:56:09
Speaker
For for like like an hour straight, like my phone like almost vibrated just off my desk from just the bombarding of calls I was getting from both sides. Holy shit.