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Episode 63: Larry Nikolai
60 Plays1 year ago
This week we're joined by WDI alumnus, show designer, creative director, and artist Larry Nikolai. Larry shares many amazing stories about the work he has done in Disney parks around the world!
To here more about Larry visit his website HERE
DISCLAIMER: We are not an affiliate of the Walt Disney Company nor do we speak for the brand or the company. Any and all Disney-owned audio, characters, and likenesses are their property and theirs alone.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Sharing the Magic' Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Sharing the Magic, the podcast that takes you on a journey through the enchanting worlds of Disney. Each week, we're joined by a special guest, whether they're a magician creating moments of astonishment or a Disney expert sharing the secrets behind the magic of the happiest place on Earth. Together we'll uncover the stories, inspirations, and behind the scenes tales that bring these worlds to life. So, get ready to be spellbound and transported to a place where dreams come true.
Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction
00:00:54
Speaker
Hello and welcome to another fantastic episode of Sharing the Magic. I'm your host Barry. And tonight, just like every other podcast, it's going to blow your mind. And I'm kind of excited about this show. So I hope you have your seat belts buckled and ready to go. We have an incredible artist joining us tonight. I think you're going to really enjoy this. But before we introduce who he is, we're going to go ahead and we'll say hello to our co-hosts. And tonight we'll start with Lisa. Lisa, how you doing?
00:01:25
Speaker
Hi, everyone. I am so excited to be back after a few weeks of hiatus, moving kids in college and such. So I'm very excited to speak with our guests tonight, specifically about their journey getting to Disney. Yeah, I'm i'm really excited. this Next we have Brian. Brian, how are you doing tonight? I'm doing great. Thank you. and And I'm also super excited about our guests. And I actually want to find out about Tokyo Disney City, which I really love.
00:01:54
Speaker
All right, next we have Dawn. Dawn, how are you doing? Hi, I'm great. I also have been moving kids into college and it's both emotional and exciting to have that new milestone starting. um I'm excited to hear about the Little Mermaid and the creations you you have done and the part you played um in making that come to fruition. So welcome.
00:02:20
Speaker
All right, next up we have one of our new co hosts, James James how are you doing doing great thank you for welcoming a team. I'm excited about Tokyo see as well as the DC a project and berries frozen. And so I will introduce.
00:02:38
Speaker
Boy, I've never been in this situation of power before. Now I'm just like, oh, the let's let's introduce our last host. The bestest host ever. The person with the, I don't know. No, i'm I'm called the goofy dupe. I, we have a couple of voice actor. James, ah James is, does some, does voice work. I do as well. And so I'm going to introduce you cause you're a special guest. So I'm going to introduce you in my goofy voice and Barry's back. So.
00:03:07
Speaker
All right, so all is well. But here we go. Oh, gosh. Hey, everybody. This is your old pal Goofy here. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. They have a real treat for you today. Another then. Oh, what an ollie. And I'm going to get your name wrong, because Goofy would. Larry Nicolai. So let's give a big old Goofy welcome to Larry. Happy to have you. Happy to have you.
00:03:36
Speaker
will go fear one of my favorites you and donald i've always liked you and donald but donald see donald and he's the hard one to do All right, before I probably will get bumped off again, because I don't know what's going on, I will go ahead and start the questioning. So forgive me if I'm in and out. I don't know what's going on.
Larry Nicolai's Journey to Disney
00:03:59
Speaker
So Larry, as I ask all our guests down here, so tell us about your love of Disney and how you got into it. Well, I moved out here from Kansas City when I was like two years old. So we started going to Disneyland almost right away.
00:04:17
Speaker
And I can look back at photos now in 1956 of me at Disneyland. So I've always grown up with the park. And it's always been part of my life. It was an important part of my life too. I always looked forward to it because every August my dad would take his vacation and we would go to Disneyland. And It always stuck with me even through my teenage years and everything. But the weird thing was I was um i was going to art school and I got my my bachelor's degree and I was working at Magic Mountain here in Santa Clarita. I'd been there for a few years.
00:04:56
Speaker
And it was just a weird thing. I'd gotten my degree already. And I already knew about you know the people at WED and all about WED enterprises and everything. And they were kind of like my heroes growing up. Because it I would always see the new new things coming to the park. And it was exciting. And I'd see these guys working on stuff. and But it was just weird that I never thought of trying to work for Disney until one day I was backstage at Magic Mountain.
00:05:26
Speaker
And it just kind of hit me. It's like, okay, I've got my degree. I'm in the theme park business already. I'm an artist. I love Disney. I should apply at WED. And from then on, it just became kind of an Odyssey to where, you know, the the cold calls or the, you know, the, the, You go down and you put in your application there and it ends up in the trash can because you know how you're not qualified or they weren't hiring or anything. But one day, by a weird coincidence, my dad's boss apparently lived next door to Mark Davis.
00:06:03
Speaker
And one day over the back fence, he he asked Mark, he says, say, one of my people there, his son is trying to get hired at Disney and he's not getting anywhere. And Mark gave him a handwritten note. It said, tell him to go here and talk to this person. And I still had that note, which is kind of cool. But that at least got me my first interview at WED at the time. And this was in 1978.
00:06:31
Speaker
when they were first working on Epcot. So I went there, but put together my portfolio, my very embarrassing portfolio that I will never show anyone ever again, because it was just kind of a kitchen sink thing. I didn't know what they wanted to see. So I just tossed everything in there. And I met with Bob Sewell, who was the head of the model shop at the time, and he gave me a tour And it wasn't as much of an interview as I thought it was going to be. I think he was just doing it as a courtesy thing for Mark. But anyway, we spent you know walking around the shop and he spent most of the time telling me why I wasn't qualified to work there. And they really weren't hiring that many people at the time. It really was kind of a smaller shop.
00:07:18
Speaker
but the neat thing was I got to see all of the Epcot models that were in the first ones that were being done and and the whole thing just kind of blew me away because suddenly I knew what I was up against and I really wasn't qualified at that time. So I came home and started trying to build some models on my own and trying to improve myself. I stayed in touch with them for probably a year or so back and forth between the ah HR department. And it looked very encouraging for a while because they were starting to ramp up for Tokyo Disneyland and they were doing Epcot. But then suddenly it all kind of imploded. I guess on one of my secondary interviews, I didn't leave a very good impression or something, and but I just suddenly got the the reject letter in the mail.
00:08:06
Speaker
And it just kind of came crashing down and I had to stop trying to get hired there. But anyway, I'm still at Magic Mountain at this time. And I was fortunate enough to meet the man who became my mentor and my future boss. It turns out that David Gangenbach had been the vice president of Maplewood Disney and he had recently left And he was now working as an engineer on his own and he was hired to come in and fix Colossus, the roller coaster, which had had an accident. And he was hired to come in and take out the camel humps on it, which he did because that was the zero G's on it that caused the problem. So anyway, I was introduced to him and he said, oh,
00:08:58
Speaker
And I told him my story, of course, about trying to get hired at Disney and everything. And he says, oh, well, you know, we're we're planning to put a dark ride into Six Flags in Atlanta. And he looked at a little of my portfolio and he said, OK, I'll tell you what, if that dark ride gets approved, you can come on and work with us.
00:09:16
Speaker
So it was like, like but okay, I've been a magic bound for almost eight years, seven years. And now suddenly I've met, you know, some, something that may move me forward here. So I'm on pins and needles for a couple of months and sure enough, they did approve it in June of 1980.
00:09:34
Speaker
So Dave picks me up out of the merchandise department where I was working and drops me into corporate engineering. And now suddenly I'm working on a major dark ride with a whole bunch of ex-Disney people, including Albertino, big Albertino, and Alaro Villa, and it was ABG production. So they were going to build all of the monsters for what was called monster plantation at the time. Now it's called Monster Mansion.
00:10:01
Speaker
I got renamed and rehabbed a couple of years ago and they did a really good job on it anyway. but But this was like I was suddenly tossed into this environment and I had nine months of trial by fire to learn everything about theme park attractions and their design and their I ended up installing it in Atlanta and stayed with Alvaro at ABG productions afterwards. I left ah six flags because it really didn't have anything for me to do after that project. So anyway, I was lucky enough between the time when I was first trying to get hired at WED in 1978, up until 1990, when I actually did get hired 12 years later, I was lucky enough
00:10:50
Speaker
to work in the industry and learn all about it outside of doing the same kind of work. So by the time 1990 rolled around um and the Disney decade was underway because Michael Eisner had introduced that, now they were hiring and now suddenly I did have enough qualifications. So It's a long story. I did end up working also at Advanced Animations in Connecticut, also with Dave Gangenbach, and I ended up doing Saturday morning cartoons, which was totally, you know, outside. Which ones? Which ones? Yeah, I was about one. I know, you gotta spill which, all the cartoons you've done, you gotta tell us.
00:11:31
Speaker
Most of them are embarrassing me because they're 1980s stuff. Okay. That's all I want. No way. And the worst, ones the better. Like I got, yeah, I love all the 1980s. Backtrack a little bit. Okay.
Learning and Mentorship at Disney
00:11:43
Speaker
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I was in advanced damnations in Connecticut.
00:11:46
Speaker
uh working with them and we were all doing pizza parlor type shows at the time that whole business imploded back in 1984 and everything started falling apart and they let's just say i got laid off there in advance it went back to the original owners they've been owned by warner for a while but it went back to the original owners i came back to california and was lucky enough to get a job at ruby spears productions and Joe Ruby and Ken Spears created Scooby-Doo for Hanna-Barbera and they had started their own studio. So suddenly I'm in a completely different business and I've never been in before. But again, I was with people who taught me the business. I spent five years there working on Alvin and the chipmunks. Oh, OK. Punky Brewster. Yeah. OK, you're hitting you're getting gold here.
00:12:44
Speaker
OK, and a bunch of other stuff like Mr. T laser tag. OK. Oh, man. These are all my fears. Rambo. OK, there's the Chuck Norris and all that. It was all the whole Kogan's. What's the whole Kogan one? Oh, no. It was a deep animation. OK. All right. Yeah. they I lot they know that we're working on that. So.
00:13:08
Speaker
It's what they'd almost called the B the B rate side of that animation at the time, but it was all gold. It was all it is. Yes. And I watch there's OK. You got ah but Larry, you got to know this. There are people nowadays that are on YouTube that piece all these ah shows from the 80s together for.
00:13:30
Speaker
people my age but every Saturday morning so that I can wake up in the morning eat a good bowl of cereal like a good millennial does and I turn on the TV and I and it and they and they will they'll put the um things like the you know Chuck Norris and the old karate kid cartoon and and and all the Hanna Barbera stuff and they will put it together with the old vintage ah um commercials so that it feels just like it did when you and I am hooked. they i I love it, so thank you for sharing. That's right. I ended up, um again, coming into that industry not knowing anything about it. I was actually hired as a sculptor there because Joe Ruby saw some little maquettes that I had done and that's what he hired me to do.
00:14:20
Speaker
but then they didn't do anything with those. And one day Ken Spears called me into his office and said, can you draw? And I said, yeah, I think I can draw. And he said, okay, well, we're gonna put you in layout. So I worked on backgrounds and layout there and ended up as the head of the background um design department by the time I left there. But you know, at the end of the eighties then also,
00:14:48
Speaker
that kind of business was starting to go away too. And we ended up, all we had were like six chipmunks to work on for a while. And that wasn't enough to keep people busy all the time. So that's when I reapplied at Imagineering. And this time I had friends there and they recommended me and that's how it all kind of came together with all my weird varied experience. So that's that's it in a nutshell. Anyway, the 12 years.
00:15:14
Speaker
And that 12 year spend now, when you got to wed, did you end up running back into Mark Davis? Cause I know he was getting ready to retire. I had just retired about the time or it was a, and did you get a chance to even talk to him because of that note that you have from him? Well, Mark actually retired before I got there. But, uh, I have a good friend, Chris Merritt, who knows him very well. And one day we all went over to his house and I did sit on the couch with him and I told him but about how I got hired.
00:15:44
Speaker
And I also brought up something weird with him because I had been told that he said that a Mont Blanc pin was the best thing that you could have. And that the company would always get you a Mont Blanc pin. So I had to tell him that ah you know i had I had a Mont Blanc pin. It wasn't true that he had said that. And I never really got an answer about it. But vi mode but he was he was fully retired by then.
00:16:09
Speaker
I mean, I think he left in either 78 or something like that right around the time that I was first trying to get hired there. So, yes, I encountered him along the way, but I never worked with him. So, Larry, i mean let me ask you this. So when when you went back, um did it did it feel different when you went back or were you or did it just feel the same? Because I i know, you know, like,
00:16:38
Speaker
a lot of people had the part part of the generation gap ah where you know the older people were going out and then the newer ones were coming in but they wanted to keep um pretty much status quo but then they also wanted to go their own way and make their own mark. You know I was still lucky enough to meet and work with a lot of the old hands there because there was still that crossover time. But it was weird going back that first day because most of 1401 Flower Street, the main building had not been remodeled since that time that I had first interviewed with Bob School. So I was able to go back and recognize where he had taken and the model shop was still in the same place in the back where they were doing the Epcot models and the model shop you always see in the world of color with Walt and everybody that was still there and it is still there to this day. But
00:17:38
Speaker
It was, but again, I was lucky enough at the time, because we had a lot of new people like myself coming on, that they did try to mentor some of the original hands. So what we used to do is have lunches where they would call people back like Rolly Crump and Claude Coates and the people who had done ah the original Disneyland.
00:18:02
Speaker
And we would have lunch with them and they would just talk to us and tell us about what they did. And again, Mark Davis came to one of those also. So we were we were being given this knowledge to carry on. And I'm like generation two and a half at WED. I mean, the first the the first generation of the folks who did Disneyland, Walt Disney World, second generation were kind of their family who also came to work.
00:18:29
Speaker
And I'm not old enough to be, you know, somebody or I'm done too old to be somebody's grandson or son there. So I'm kind of right between Tony Baxter and the current
Artistic Legacy and Projects
00:18:41
Speaker
ones. So Tony was like generation two, but I came after him. So I'm like two and a half, but I'm not quite generation three because they came after me while I was there. Interesting.
00:18:53
Speaker
What was it like in that ah department and what was it like getting like knowledge from somebody like Raleigh Trump coming back in those, you know, in that in-between era where they would come back to people like Bob Gurr, Raleigh Trump, um you know, ah Mark Davis, like you said, you know, getting to sit down with him. What was that like? How was that empowering to you as a new, say, Imagineer? Well, you mentioned Raleigh and I've mentioned it too. And for the weird thing is I had already worked with Raleigh outside of Disney.
00:19:22
Speaker
When I was at ABG Productions, that's why I first met him. We did the Tex Critters pizza parlor show. Rolly designed all the characters and I did the sculpture on them and everything. And we worked on a couple of things together for the Atlantic City Golden Nugget that he was working on at the time. So I already knew Rolly when he came back and he had already kind of mentored me that way. I'm not sure how to answer the rest of the question.
00:19:48
Speaker
I feel, here's, here's what I think. I feel like yeah when you have a relationship with someone like that, when you, you know, sometimes when you're like, what was it? You know, there's, there's obviously big names and, and really Krump is he's one of them. But then when you're like, Oh, I i know that guy, like he's, you know, we interacted where it sort of stumps you. It's sort of like, no, that's just my, that's my buddy. Or this it's this guy I worked with or whatever it is. I think that.
00:20:15
Speaker
I think that's really interesting in and of itself because you know it's not about making it hyperbolic it's just like this is this is just what I did and I and I think that's ah that's cool to be someone in your position where You know, you not only did great things, but you worked with great people and it's just sort of like, well, that was a nine to five job. That's just how it kind of is. And I think there's something there for our listeners where it's sort of like, well, maybe, maybe the more of the lesson is, you know, you don't, you don't get start, you know, maybe you didn't know we get, when we drop names like that, we get starstruck, but.
00:20:54
Speaker
The truth is it takes everybody, everybody to to make things work. And you were one of them and he was one of them. And sort of when you're in the process, maybe it's not, you know, who's the superstar. Maybe it's just we all did the work that we needed to do. I don't know what you think about that, but that's just my take, you know? Well, it's, you know, I did stand back and pause every now and then and realize that I was in ah in a special place because of that.
00:21:24
Speaker
And I mentioned earlier that these guys were my heroes growing up. And because of that, now that I'm starting to meet them or be associated with them, of course, I did research into what they had done. And I was steeped in that knowledge now of their styles and the kind of answers that they gave to, you know, decisions that had to be made on attractions and especially working with someone like Big Al Rutino on Monster Plantation. But he and I and Gabe Gangobach's son, Kirk Gangobach, wrote ah some pizza parlor shows together too.
00:22:05
Speaker
So I actually got to sit in the room with Big Alan Wright stuff and learned a lot from him that way because he had written bare band at America Sings. So that kind of knowledge was passed on to me also about timing and character and what's funny and what isn't. And also the fact that you kind of leave your ego at the door when you're doing those things because, okay, if it's not funny, you don't hang on to it, you know, and don't feel bad about it But it was that kind of thing that you just learned from these guys who had been doing it all their lives, you know? That's right. And fortunately, I was able to absorb that kind of stuff from these folks. Awesome. Yeah, I think one of the big things is, and I think Jeff, you I think you nailed it on the head because a lot of times each one of us has our own Mount Rushmore like Imagineers.
00:23:00
Speaker
you know, every everybody, but it's like, we look at it but one way, they look at it totally like how you take it. And and Larry, you you seem like someone who would just take it one day at a time on that, so. Yes, i think I think my ambition for working at Disney after I realized I wanted to work there was that I wanted to have my artwork and physical artwork that I had created to be part of the Disney legacy. And to have, you know, I have myself attached to their history that way. And to me, that was one of the primary drivers for me is just to again, be part of it, to know that I contributed. How could it not? Have you gone to parks with friends and and said, like, Hey, I did that. I did that. I did that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:59
Speaker
yeah You got to do, you know, you don't do that to a point, but it, you know, you don't want to bore people either. So, Oh yeah. Over there. yeah it was that I don't think it'd be boring. I was just actually brought it so funny, Brian, that you brought that up. I was thinking the same thing. I was like, when I go to the parks, I want to be like, Oh.
00:24:19
Speaker
i I know this guy, I know this person, they they did this, or they did this, and and it just it unlocks like a whole other layer of of doing this podcast and meeting just fantastic people, you know and people that have stories to tell.
00:24:35
Speaker
Boy, I'll tell you what, when i now when I go to the parks, I don't go that often, but when I do, I'll tell you what. I'm always looking out, okay, i got where's my friend? Oh, they heated this. Oh, are we? And my wife probably gets so annoyed by him just geeking out all the time. but My wife does. I'll be honest, my wife does. Really? Because I'm being a former cast member and I know Larry might, you know, with that that I did this sort of thing. Yeah, i'm the I'm like, I remember doing this. I remember being here when this happened. And it's just like, she's like, James, be quiet. just not be quiet but So Larry, what was your first like real project that you did when you got to WED? The first thing they put me on was Euro Disneyland or Disneyland Paris was underway at the time.
00:25:24
Speaker
And most of the design had already been done because they were already you know starting to build the park over there, just in the first parts of that. But the post show for Small World had not been designed yet. ah Because you know of sometimes the sponsors come later. And they had gotten French Telecom as the sponsor at the time. So that was the first thing they put me on with Tom Morris in the fantasy land there.
00:25:52
Speaker
and Yeah, that was that was the very first thing. And that ah ahcc occupied me for at least the first eight or nine months. And it was weird because when I first got hired, because I had been in Connecticut and away from my family for a while and everything, I kind of told them, you know, I don't really want to do an awful lot of travel or, you know, stuff where I'm away from there for a long time. So sure enough, within, you know, like two weeks of me getting hired, I'm sent off to Paris. And it was to me with France Telecom,
00:26:25
Speaker
But I mean, that was cool also. I was like, hey, this is for the Paris for the first time. And, ah you know, we met with them and we had to work with the sponsor on what that was going to be. Hey, Lisa, um I'm sure you got a question or two. would yeah What is going on in your noggin?
Cultural Insights at Tokyo Disney
00:26:43
Speaker
No, i I appreciate one of my very good friends is um an Imagineer at Walt Disney World. And I love to hear the stories of the things that he's worked on. And I appreciate you very much for being on our podcast, um because I'm sure when you go into the park, you can you know that your fingerprints are everywhere. um And even the influence that you had, um even after you weren't working on those projects has carried on. So thank you very much for what you do. um But some of the things my questions are, we've heard a little bit about how you got into Disney and I absolutely, I'm very much into leadership and I love those experiences. You know, you met one leader, leaned from their experience and then you met another artist and then you get in that
00:27:36
Speaker
paved the way to where you are. What are some of the other big things that you worked on or even some of the little things that you're just incredibly proud of? Well, let's see. Right after the post-show for Small World, I think the next yeah the next thing was um Tokyo, the Tokyo project needed somebody to work on bringing the um Christmas show for their band over to that park. So I kind of moved over to the Tokyo park. Oh, no, I forgot something in between. I'm sorry. um When Disneyland Paris or Euro Disneyland opened, as you probably know,
00:28:20
Speaker
It and didn't have quite the attendance that they planned on, so they knew that they knew they needed capacity right away. and There were a couple of big attractions that were going to be put in at the time. And I was put on a theater show for Beauty and the Beast, which never happened. But if you look at the very first Euro Disneyland maps, you'll still see it there. It's off there. There's a mermaid ride and there's a Beauty and the Beast attraction that never got done.
00:28:52
Speaker
But anyway, I worked on that for a a number of months too. And then they realized again, that you know rather than spending their money on a couple of big E tickets, they needed capacity all over the park. So they stopped those two projects. And that's when Storybook Land came about and a number of smaller things that got peppered in around the park. So I went straight off the beauty of the beast into Storybook Land.
00:29:20
Speaker
And I had ended up designing all of the little or doing the drawings for all of the little buildings and things and for the settings and kind of working out the layout of the whole attraction. And it was as that was finally being installed. That's when I went over to the Tokyo project.
00:29:38
Speaker
and started working with Tokyo, which I ended up working with Tokyo for 13 years, but many, many things. yeah So a lot of the attractions over there, I ended up working on additions to. First one was Bear Band Christmas Show. And that was mainly an adaptation of what was done at Disneyland with a few little things added in there. i said That was a great show. Yeah, I saw that when I was out there. and said though I didn't know that. That's that's pretty awesome.
00:30:07
Speaker
yes did you stay Did you actually live in live in Japan all those 13 years? No, I did an awful lot of business travel. I did some installation and and and business travel. I did end up installing some of Arabian coast when we got to Tokyo Disney Sea, but it was kind of tag teaming it with Chris Crump, who I know you've interviewed in the past who worked on quite a few together. yeah But yeah, between Yeah, between that and, and like I was saying about 13 years worth of work, i I did end up doing a lot of work and a lot of travel to Japan. We had a good conversation last week about Disney Japan.
00:30:49
Speaker
Y'all remember that, everybody? No, not, only half the people were here. So maybe it's just Barry but okay and and Brian and and ah and and Don, you were here last week too, right? Yeah, it's just so different. So what we talked about with ah last week,
00:31:06
Speaker
but Scott Wolf. Scott Wolf was a great guest. he needs Boy, where to start with his career. He's he's done a lot of a lot of stuff. But anyways, we got off sort of off topic, but not really, about just how different ah Disney Japan is. And we talked about how it it's it's funded differently. So it's It is, it's not the same. So they put a lot of work, a lot of thought, but it's just different. It's not, you know, and maybe a case could be made where it's like, Oh, is it better or worse? It's like, no, but it it is very different. And, and I, I've never been there, but I go on eBay sometimes and look up merchandise from, from, and it's completely different than all the stuff you get anywhere else in the world. And so, you know, I don't know if you have anything. to that maybe you do but but i do interesting yeah let's hear it i would love to well yeah yeah tokyo the tokyo parks of course are are owned by oriental land corporation and disney gets you know that was the first foreign park that they did so at the time they only negotiated it a certain percentage of the box office and the merchandise and all that so they've never we've never been owners of those parks but
00:32:23
Speaker
the Japanese people totally embraced the Disney culture and the characters and they are just fanatics about it. And they love the park and those parks are kept in perfect condition. One morning I watched one of the cast members on her hands and knees with a toothbrush scrubbing the grout between the tiles on the entrance to Tokyo Disney Sea. I mean they're just they just really care about those parks and when we would install an attraction there
00:32:58
Speaker
We always knew that when we came back again, it was going to look exactly the same and be functioning exactly the same too because they just really cared and took care of stuff. So I always loved working with the Japanese partners over there.
00:33:14
Speaker
So what was it like, you know, embracing that culture? Because you said that, you know, it's it's owned by the Oriental Land Company, and it's licensed licensing.
Artistic Contributions and Design Challenges
00:33:25
Speaker
What was it like having to really partner with them on say something like um the replica of Agrabah and working on a totally different culture within a culture, I guess?
00:33:36
Speaker
um It is a different culture and you learn you know the polite way to handle things and the way you handle meetings there. It was good whenever we had to do presentations because we always had our interpreters with us.
00:33:49
Speaker
And it helped me give presentations because every couple of sentences you would stop, let them do that the interpretation for the people in the room and that would let me gather my thoughts again. So it was kind of empowering that way because it really helped me to hone in on what I was saying and give good presentations on all that. Their culture is very service oriented.
00:34:13
Speaker
And they're very careful also about safety and security and everything. So it was it was just really good to work with them. Plus, when we ended up working with the Japanese vendor or something, some things and Japanese artists, they just do exceptional work. When we did the the overlay for the Haunted Mansion the night ever before Christmas overlay, we did end up working with artists in Japan on that.
00:34:41
Speaker
and going to vendor shops out and about Tokyo and a little further away and all that. And they just they just do phenomenal work. We were always very happy with it. And like I said, they really cared about what they did. so And plus, they there was me mutual respect, of course, going on too. As the art director and everything, um I was still in charge of buying things off and making sure things were as they should be, but they always were. And they always deferred to that as well.
00:35:14
Speaker
So we had a good relationship working on all of the teams that I had. The businessmen are businessmen, like anywhere in the world. You know, you do your presentations to them and they handle the money and they turn projects on and off. But when we got down to the teams who were actually doing the work in the field,
00:35:34
Speaker
They were great to work with. I always enjoyed working with everybody and we all got to know each other after a while. So the same people would be working on all the different things. um So, you know, we we established a good rapport along the way and I really enjoyed working with.
00:35:51
Speaker
That's really interesting. that's Anyway, i i don't I don't have anything to add to that, but hey, Dawn, you probably do. so Yeah, i I want to go into the attractions. So obviously there's a lot of moving parts, no pun intended to attractions. And I know you do drawings and sculptures and probably way more than we even have time to discuss, but what were you assigned? Let's just use the little mermaid, for example. um I love that. ride I love the little mermaid.
00:36:20
Speaker
So what kind of contribution would you say that you made? And I've seen your website and of course the pictures and we all know ah the ride riding in the clamshell. So did you have any input on the actual vehicle that you ride in or was it more of the characters or if you could elaborate on the attractions?
00:36:40
Speaker
Well, as the creative director, art director, for I had input on everything in that attraction. I didn't come in i wasn't at the very beginning. ah There were others who had already laid out the the ride track and had actually determined, for the most part, what the scenes were. So that had already been done prior to that, and also the choice of the omnivover and the clamshells.
00:37:04
Speaker
But it had kind of stalled a little bit at one point. So my good friend, Chris Crump, again, he was the production designer on that. And he kind of raised his hand at one point and then brought me in to take it over at one point. so I left the Tokyo projects that I'd been working on. I was doing a stitch in the ah tiki room at the time. So I finished that up. I still went to Japan and installed that. But in the meantime, Mermaid made it a lot of fleshing out. We knew what the scenes were, but of course, we didn't have design drawings for the characters. We didn't have drawings yet or concepts on what the scenes, the scenery would look like.
00:37:51
Speaker
So it was my job to come in and direct that, direct the people who in the model shop who, you know, we always start with the smaller models. And when we do sculpture of characters, they like to have turnarounds of the characters. So they always appreciate it when you don't just give them a concept drawing, you actually do it to scale and show it front, side, back, front, or top, bottom, whatever you need to show them that helps them move up with their sculpture. So the under to see characters and you know all of the ones that were in the film, I ended up doing drawings for those.
00:38:29
Speaker
that then the sculptors took and then turned into that. and We had several vendors working on it. We have them at Imagineering. We also had Advanced Animations in now Vermont, who I used to work for. And I went back as an art director in a yeah different regime. But they did some of the characters there too. And then Garner Holt Productions out at San Bernardino also did some characters.
00:38:52
Speaker
So we did rotations there, but it was my responsibility to not only provide the drawings they needed, but to also art direct them as they were going along. Meantime, working with the model shop and the scenery design folks, arranging for all of that to get into drawing form.
00:39:14
Speaker
And then also having to deal with ride vehicles and the ride system, which was built in Japan near Kyoto or Kobe, I'm sorry. And I had to go to Japan and work with the people who were producing the ride track, which they built in its totality there in Japan. Separate vendor doing the clamshells had to go out to the vendor way out in the middle of nowhere in Japan, too.
00:39:37
Speaker
and deal with the rhoda mold and go to clamshells. So the art director's job, what I'm getting at is you get your fingers into everything, including the the music, which was kind of cool because I got to to work with Danny Trub on um the music we were going to have and record for the same. So it's all good.
00:39:58
Speaker
That's one of my favorite cues to wait. It's it's fabulous. The cue, the line, just going through that, you really feel like you are going into an undersea world. I've always loved the cue. Well, you're talking about Florida probably. Yes.
00:40:15
Speaker
I have an opportunity to go. All of the deal for Florida was done by others. I did the main attraction art direction, but because it went into a fantasy land, it needed a more elaborate queue that was more fanciful than what we did at California Adventure. So actually, I can't claim credit on that one. I did not do anything on the queue for for you Do you know if the clamshells are the same vehicle that you ride in at Epcot when you are in this seed pavilion? No, theyre they are completely different because you have a different loading system there. ah The ones at Epcot, I believe it slides to the side and you get in and it kind of slides in front of you and at the the mermaid attractions, the front
00:41:05
Speaker
pivots forward and you climb in from the side that way, and then it pivots back again. So no, they're different vehicles. Okay, and then my my last question, and since we're on attraction, is if you could talk about the um Pirates of the Caribbean a little bit. That's my other favorite. Pirates for, okay, well, I only worked on Pirates in Paris yeah when we were doing a Majorie back in the 2016, 2017.
00:41:31
Speaker
a lot of Euro Disneyland or Disneyland Paris was being brought back up to its originals because of course they had had their own challenges there along the way but it was just a major rehab on the attraction which was cool because those pirates growing up was always my favorite attraction. And to be able to work on a pirate's attraction was was you know fantastic. And the one in Paris is just wonderful. It's the most gigantic building you've ever seen. And it works on like three different levels of you know it it all fitted into this this building here. it's It's laid out differently than the other pirates' attractions. um And at the last minute, six weeks before we were ready to turn it over,
00:42:18
Speaker
Uh, we got the, um, notice that we needed to change the redhead, the other parts we're doing, which we weren't planning. Yeah. But we watched the red. Yeah. We did not have the same amount of time to deal with it. So what we did is put a wig on her. Well, actually we gave her a new head. Okay. All right. We're two ways in a pod. How about that? We're,
00:42:48
Speaker
As you probably know, um sculptures and heads do get shared around between attractions. Yeah, yeah. kind mano Yeah, I imagine pirates, even Epcot had some some of the the pirate figures in it, and vice versa, because you know, they've taken some of the Epcot figures you've used in elsewhere, too. Some of them were used in Phantom Manor.
00:43:11
Speaker
But Red didn't have time. So we didn't give her any dialogue because we didn't have time for that. But we didn't dress her up and gave her a new persona to where now she she is selling rum too. But we gave her her a a new costume and a new pose. And I'll tell you, because you're in Paris, which is the fashion care capital of the world, we have the greatest costume people working on her. And in six weeks, we had a holy, completely newly-posed figure.
00:43:43
Speaker
And you know a change to the attraction, but the auctioneer is still the one doing the talking there for the main part. And she is there as a supporting character, but very prominent in her own right because you know the spotlight's on her as well. We also did something different because you probably know in Paris they had the Fighting Pirates, yeah which was you know a major animatronic piece of work, but also very difficult to maintain. So we were rebuilding them But we turned it around. It used to be a townsperson fighting a pirate. And we turned it around to where now we have a townsperson and we had a female pirate. So we had to build a whole new figure and do a whole new head for her. And that came out really good. You know, a big change there. Plus, we added Jack Sparrow for the first time.
00:44:33
Speaker
Plus we had a Barbosa and those two were wonderful because I don't think anyone else has the Barbosa figure we have. He was a fully articulated figure who we did a blacklight change on to where he turned into a zombie as you came up there and he swings a sword at you and everything. And he really came out great. And I do have to say, I'm prejudiced about this. I think our Jack Sparrow figure was the best and the best staging in Detroit.
00:45:02
Speaker
I believe because he's sitting up of a pile of stuff there and he's got his whole scene to himself. He's not kind of crammed into something existing there. Um, and it just, the animation and not on him and everything, he just really looked real. So that's what we did on pirate. So I was thrilled to be able to work on it and been do something different, you know, and unique to that park.
00:45:27
Speaker
so but So Larry, be before I turn it over, because I think Brian has a question. So let me let me ask you, when when you were when you were working, um were there times where you you felt like this is great as it is? i mean but Or were you always looking that, OK, I need to change this, just needs to be changed. But if I could do it this way, this would be a lot better? Or were you just at the status quo? No.
00:45:57
Speaker
I do have to admit that between the two mermaid shows, because especially when we started with the one at California Adventure, we were kind of confined to a certain space there that the Golden Dreams Theater used to take. We couldn't go outside that. So the base plan was only so big.
00:46:18
Speaker
um I still feel that Mermaid is about two scenes too short. That there really could and have, if we'd had the room, given a little more of a dramatic ending with Ursula. I mean, we did get her in there, but we didn't have enough room to really do something that with enough impact.
00:46:38
Speaker
And if we had had the room, I just think we could have completed that story a little bit better. As it is, the whole show is based around the main songs that are in the in in the ah the movie. So that's what we had to base it on. So of course, you know, there's gaps in the story along the way, but we are hitting the highlights of the film and it's like I've always said that the dark rides are more of a visit with friends, because you can't always tell a complete story in six minutes. you know So it's it's what people are already familiar with and characters they love, and this is their chance to visit with them. So we still have accomplished that in Mermaid. But just as a story point, it would have been nice to have that battle with Ursula somewhere in there.
00:47:25
Speaker
How much space would have it really taken to make that happen? Or how what were the logistically was that looked at by anybody to go outside that confine a little bit or no?
00:47:37
Speaker
No, we couldn't. We really couldn't. ah We only had that base pad to work with at that California Adventure. And when we were doing duplicate attractions, we really did become what we called mermaid ink to where they were going to be duplicate attractions so that there wasn't a lot of redesign along the way because they only opened a year apart from each other.
00:48:00
Speaker
So in order to change the one in Florida afterwards, it would have taken a lot more time. And there was a schedule to be met with the new fantasy land. So it ended up being a duplicate of including you know the lack of those two scenes, let's say, even though they might have had room to do something there.
00:48:20
Speaker
what With the segue off of that, and I had this question, it's probably the segue is off the list, three questions. But in any of these attractions, when you're you're on the final stage, you have a deadline date. Now, because I do web design, so I know we always have our time. We have yeah to get a certain thing done. But like you know maybe a couple of weeks before you're testing, you're going through, how often do you get to a point where You're in those final couple weeks. where When do you actually sign off and say, but we're almost done? Or do you have some leeway along the way, even if like a week before you notice something that you want to change? You know, does it ever get to that point where it gets that close? Yes.
00:48:58
Speaker
There is a point where we have to turn it over to the operations people. But that doesn't mean, you know, we can't come back in and do any finagling along the way, but we just have to coordinate with them after that point. Because the now the attraction doesn't belong to us, it belongs to operations.
00:49:16
Speaker
But there were there were a couple of little things along the way and a couple of stuff that we caught at at the last moment that needed fixing before we started bringing any guests through. One in particular in the Kiss the Girl scene. The fish there are spouting and those are you know resin spouts. you know so they're they're kind of stylized they go up and down and then it just looks like frozen water basically that they're spouting but the original spouts we had in there had a very strange knob like top on it because we had taken it from a shop or we had taken the molds from a shop that was in Tokyo Disney Sea and we just duplicated it for those fish
00:49:57
Speaker
But we started looking at those saying, you know, those look kind of funny. And we just didn't like the way they did. So at the very last moment, we sculpted a new top that had kind of a splash pattern on it. And I remember doing this in like two days, ah you know, going to our sculptors, Gotti Goddard, very quickly turned out, you know, a quick sculpture that we liked.
00:50:20
Speaker
do the molding really quick, cast up the resin pieces, give them to me. We actually came and installed those. like I physically attached them to those spouts literally hours before the first guests or the first you know cast members who are going to come through and see it for the first time. So that was a little bit of a panic.
00:50:39
Speaker
And, you know, there you've probably heard the stories about there were changes on mermaid afterwards as well, you know, but but when we build figures, they're always prototypes and sometimes, you know, attractions evolve and you find something didn't quite work. And, you know, Ariel's hair in scene five with the soft serve that we call it, you know, the foster freeze look.
00:51:05
Speaker
yeah It was a good idea because it was based on what she looked like in the movie, but it just didn't work. It kept breaking poor little Ariel's neck. It was a maintenance problem. And not only that, it just never quite looked like it was swirling either. So we all got together and decided that we were going to redo her hair. And that took a little while to make that happen, but we ultimately did. And it helped out. It helped them out.
00:51:34
Speaker
maintenance wise and it also helped the look of that figure in the show. So things do get added and and and changed along the way as you understand the operations of the attraction, also what's working and what isn't working. You find out. Sometimes you don't know that when you first open it.
00:51:55
Speaker
that's That's amazing. that' So you have like a warranty period, like the same thing with the website. So you have a period of time to go back and make some more changes. and Yeah. Okay. I got you. That's great. um Long as that's approved by your management and then the money is there to do those changes. Do you ever go to Festival of the Arts at Epcot? Or do you ever have a booth there for your paintings and your sculptures?
Sculpting and Animatronics Passion
00:52:17
Speaker
I didn't.
00:52:18
Speaker
Well, I did it one year. um I started in the business as a sculptor, but I ah really didn't do that much afterwards. I became more of a designer, an artist. I did a couple of sculptures for classic collection that are out there that I'm kind of proud of. They came out good because that was a good collection. And I did a lot of paintings.
00:52:39
Speaker
for the galleries in the parks also in the fine art paintings. And I did one year do the Festival of Arts at Epcot, but that business model seems to have changed now about what they want in the galleries. So I'm kind of out of the loop on all that now. I saw a sculpture of a figment that you had done.
00:53:03
Speaker
Yeah, is that when that was done. it Well, but that was a little fluke. That was gonna be an award for Kodak to get to the employees. employees And it never happened. So it's just in the collections, they're at Imagineering now. But that's the only time I've sculpted Figment. So is there there um is there anything you would like to, I mean, if you go to scope,
00:53:30
Speaker
Is there anything, you don't, you don't do any, uh, like, like attractions or anything like that. Do you mean sculpture? yeah scop Do you sculpt any of that? Yeah. No, no, I, you know, there were a couple of little tiny things that I did sculpt. Um, one, I can only that I sculpt that ended up in an attraction in splash mountain in Tokyo.
00:53:56
Speaker
but They needed a a little character on a worm hook, because one of the geese is is fishing on a bridge that you go under, and there's a little hook there, and we had i need to have a little character on it. So that's one character I did. That counts. That counts. It counts. None of us have a character there. He's got a hat and everything, and he's cute, but you know what? If you pass by, you know he's gone just like that. Unless you're really looking for him, you're not going to see it.
00:54:25
Speaker
But that's really a probably the only sculpture that I did that ended up in an attraction. So impressive. I mean, if I if I had a sculpture in any Disney ride at all or anything, I would be I would i would just wear a T-shirt with the picture on it the entire time. I'd be asking me about my sculpting. Like I would be flamboyous about it. You know, I mean, it would be yo a big arrow.
00:54:48
Speaker
Yeah. and know with a flashing light Yeah. No, I'll just be like, and every time I would ride the ride, I'd be like, I did that. I did that. Hey, everyone. They would just get mad at me and I would just, you know, they'd be like, shut up. I'm like, but I sculpted that and they're like, stop it. And they just throw their stuff at me.
00:55:04
Speaker
I see an Abraham Lincoln sculpture. So did you have any art? and Obviously, we all know that was one of Walt Disney's icons, idols. yeah But looking at that, it just makes me think of animatronics. And then my mind goes down a rabbit hole with how they're doing that animatronic with Walt. So does this have anything to do with the skins of the animatronics? Or I'm sure it's connected in some regard. The Lincoln you made?
00:55:33
Speaker
Lincoln or any of the other yeah or any of the other bus that you might have done sculptures. Oh, I really, I really only did Lincoln but and Lincoln was important to me because ah yeah I was there when it first opened at Disneyland in 1965 and I remember exactly where I was sitting in the theater and if he kind of changed my life anyway. and I not only became very very interested in Abraham Lincoln,
00:56:06
Speaker
but also just the whole idea of animatronics and why I became so involved with them is all based on that day and just being fascinated with him. So the Lincoln you saw on my website when I was at Advanced Animations, there was a wax museum in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania of all places, a Civil War wax museum. And they yeah had a terrible animatronic Lincoln And they came to advanced and wanted a better one. And because I was a big Lincoln in aficionado, it was like I raised my hand. And I said, you know, can I can I handle this one, please? So I sculpted Lincoln, myself, I do have copies of both of his life masks. So I had, you know, the same kind of reference that Lane Gibson had on on his. And I had I knew Lincoln thoroughly by then.
00:57:01
Speaker
And that sculpture you saw there was the one that ended up as the animatronic at Gettysburg. It's gone now. Okay, that museum closed or else became something. But it was more my one chance to do an animatronic Lincoln and that that's where I grabbed it.
00:57:17
Speaker
So I remember five year old Jeff first time he's ever been to Disneyland and I can remember vividly seeing Lincoln and it was like since then. Okay. The only animatronics, you know, I grew up in new Mexico. We don't have theme parks. yeah The only thing I went to Chuck E. Cheese and I saw, you know, a mouse here, the rocket fire. I saw eight play in the.
00:57:43
Speaker
The piano, whatever. That's fine. But that was the first experience seeing something that lifelike. And I can remember five year old in my head, still there. Same guy. and I could I could just and like look it up. Like, whoa. Wow. Wow. How this feels. This is this like not being able cognitive dissonance. Like it feels like it's real, but I know it's not. And I i think that's that's the dream. That's the goal, right?
00:58:13
Speaker
Right. And that was the animatronics were new at that point. So Lincoln was a real, you know, watershed moment there. And again, I mean, my fascination with animatronics started with that. And since then, between all the places I've worked and at Disney and everything, I've worked with hundreds of animatronic figures. And it never failed to fascinate me just the process of building them.
00:58:41
Speaker
yeah and then watching them come together and watching them come to life afterwards. it's That has always been kind of the driving force for me as as a theme park designer, as the characters in the animatronics.
00:58:55
Speaker
Looking forward, you know, when you see animatronics now and how they're, you know, they're, what, what captures your wonder, you know, do you ever see something that you go, Oh my gosh, that's how did they do that? Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. I do know how ah they did that. I'm just amazed at the.
00:59:18
Speaker
advances even since I left the company or since I retired. and The fact that they've gone to the electric motors now allows you to do so much more fluid animation with less maintenance and the new skin technologies that I've watched grow over the years, all the way from you know early latex skins to to the new silicones that we use.
00:59:43
Speaker
very sophisticated stuff that has allowed characters to emote more and to have better, more fluid movements. If anything, mermaid was right on the cusp of when we were switching from hydraulics, which still gives great movement, nuts but you know they're they're more maintenance heavy, switching from hydraulics to the electric.
01:00:05
Speaker
And we didn't quite get there. Ariel's face and Ursula's head are electric, but their bodies are still hydraulic. And if we had been able to use the new motors, we would have gotten just a little more animation out of them as all. It would have been you know a joy to work with that.
01:00:26
Speaker
And I just missed it by that much. But the new ones that I've seen at Fantasy Springs, Tokyo DisneySea, just amazing, all the movements that they're able to accomplish. They were with skinny arms. We always had to build up the arms so that you could fit the cylinders and everything that had to go in there. And a lot of the motors are small enough to where you can have Elsa and Anna with their thinner arms gesturing and doing all kinds of things we couldn't do before.
Mentorship and Imagineering Dynamics
01:00:55
Speaker
So I've watched it from all the way from the most primitive you know or basic animatronics all the way to that, and just been amazed by all the advances that have happened. Going back to your Lincoln, um did you get a chance to talk to Bob Gurr at all about what his processes were? Because he was very instrumental in the Lincoln at Disneyland. Did you get to use him at all as a reference point while you're doing yours?
01:01:23
Speaker
Oh, no, no, because advanced animations, we didn't have any contact with Bob Gurr. We were out in Connecticut. And I did end up meeting him later because I did some freelance for a company that he was working with back here when I came back from Connecticut. But no, I never I was never able to consult with him on any of the animatronic work.
01:01:45
Speaker
So Larry, let me ask you, we know which error you were in. Now, if you can pull yourself out, which one would you rather be? Would you rather be with the originals, stay where you are, or be with the ones who are working on the future? You're talking about the cast members? No, Imagineers. I'm talking about where you were. Oh, you're talking about animatronics. Yeah.
01:02:11
Speaker
yeah where yeah where Yeah, it's like if you have a time machine, if you have a time machine, right? yeah Yeah, you're like, would you go? Yeah. Would you go back? I mean, if you pulled yourself out, would you go back and work with the gentleman at the beginning? Work where where you currently were working or or look for the. I would I would go back to just a few years before I retired.
01:02:41
Speaker
because the folks that I was working with then at the time, we all had a rapport and they had all been there for many years. And they had also been through you know the whole history of attractions. So we all had kind of an easy understanding and communication skill that I was very comfortable with. And unfortunately, a few years before before I retired,
01:03:10
Speaker
there was an offer made to a lot of folks who had a certain amount of time with the company to where they gave them an early retirement with with a good deal for them, which, you know, it was good of them to take it. But of course now the pandemic came along and a lot of people from my era either were furloughed and never came back or they also retired.
01:03:36
Speaker
So I don't really know the people that are there now. So I can't say that, you know, I wouldn't want to work with them or that I don't, you know, I wouldn't feel comfortable working with them, but I really don't know the crew there now. right So I have to go back to to the ones where the majority of my work was done. um Just the fact that we all work together for so long and, you know, have that rapport.
01:04:03
Speaker
And I feel like that's the best answer, the very best answer. It's like, you know, why would you want to trade up your trade, you know, your experience for something in the past or the future? But it's always sort of that, like, I don't, I would love to relive or to, to keep the life I've had, but I would tweak it a little bit. And I feel like that's how, yeah if I could, if I could live my life over again, I'm sure that's exactly how I would, what I would say too. So.
01:04:31
Speaker
I also see it as you get the best of like, like you said, you you had some of the old guards still there to teach you and then you had some of this new guard that you're talking about that you were able to kind of mentor and bring forward. Who were some of the new the new people that you were able to mentor who are maybe still there or have moved on to do other things? Because you were in that role at one point, maybe like, you know, a Raleigh Crump or someone else was to you in the past.
01:05:00
Speaker
because there were There were a few who you know I was able to impart my knowledge to because they cared enough to come and talk to me. Chris Merritt, I don't know if you know him. He's one of the but folks that we actually brought him on on the Sinbad attraction. ah Chris Crump actually suggested bringing them on, but we brought Chris on in the model shop for Sinbad.
01:05:23
Speaker
and that was kind of the start of his career ah with theme parks and he's gone on to do you know many amazing things aside from being ah an author of many books. A good friend of mine
Cultural Adaptations in Rides
01:05:35
Speaker
that I believe is still there or came back again maybe Mark Page is there now and he he does wonderful artwork as well but there were a few along the way anyway that that you know just I was able to work with when they first came on and hopefully they learned as we went through the attraction together as you know the production process together. You you brought up Sinbad. Let's go back to Tokyo. What was that like? Because like like you said that Disney just it's a license over there with the you know oil land company. What was it like working on a non-Disney license and putting that into like? Well it was
01:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, again, I came on to Tokyo DisneySea after they had already kind of laid the groundwork and they knew what the lands were and they knew what the attractions were. But nothing had been and really concretely done yet on Sinbad. So I was able to start with that. But it had already been agreed upon as, as um you know, an attraction there. And the fact that Tokyo Disney Sea actually started out trying to be a complimentary park to Tokyo Disney Land, but maybe skewing toward a more older audience or dating couples, not thinking about kids quite as much.
01:07:02
Speaker
And they wanted to do some new things that weren't in the other parks that didn't necessarily have established a Disney IP. So that's why you've got the volcano there with Journey to the Center of the Earth, yeah which, you know, is on none of the other parks and is a fantastic attraction. You know, so that that group got to explore that and Arabian coast. We did have a lab and we have the magic lamp theater for him.
01:07:32
Speaker
But we needed another attraction there. And the other cultural thing ah that was centered on was the Arabian Nights. And we were told anyway that the the stories from the Arabian Nights were universal enough to where the Japanese audience knew those stories.
01:07:52
Speaker
And we went you know full steam ahead on Sinbad, taking one part of the Arabian Ike stories and then flushing out just the the stories of Sinbad's seven voyages. Because they had been done as movies and he was generally well known. But it did turn out that Japanese audience didn't know those stories as well as we were told that they did. ah So that is why he has ended up changing as much as he has.
01:08:22
Speaker
But I will say that it was gratifying to be able to do something like you know the the original legendary folks who did Disneyland. They did Pirates, they did Haunted Mansion. Those were not IP at the time either. you know And they were they were able to come up with with new things that has since become Disney you know intellectual property.
01:08:43
Speaker
So it was exciting to be able to come up with something along those lines that had not been done in any of the other parks before, or was not an established movie that had been done by Disney. So we had kind of free reign and it did come out pretty good, you know, even though it didn't have to get changed so that the audience understood what was going on more. ah What do you mean by it had to get changed? because Why did it have to get changed? Well,
01:09:12
Speaker
It started out as Sinbad 7 Voyages, and it was done as an adventure. We created a whole new type of animatronic figure for it that was only about one meter tall, about three three meters tall over three three feet tall.
01:09:28
Speaker
And they had all the animation that the full size figures would have. So this was something new. And it also was an attraction that had the most figures in it, because the smaller ones, we could fit more into the scenes. And we had like 164 characters in there for the initial view of that. Because we were going for a more serious, I'm going to say, or more adventurous kind of theme on that. um We had Buddy Baker, great Buddy Baker, ah do a soundtrack for us and music that was closer to a Bernard horn Herman bernard herman's score, like the guy who did the s Sinbad, the Seven Voyages s Sinbad, classic Hollywood composition, but very, very adventurous and sometimes a little too dark, it turns out.
01:10:21
Speaker
So the first thing that was noticed when we got the attraction going was that the music was a little too ponderous for these characters that were more like smaller puppets and wasn't quite grabbing people like something like a small rote would. So the first thing that was noticed about that was we need to fix the music.
01:10:46
Speaker
And we brought Alan Menken in for that. And he wrote a whole new score for it and a theme song that would go throughout. We also found out the character of Sinbad that we had done, the head of Oriental Land, did not like the character because he had a beard. And the beard reminded him of a comedian in Japan that he didn't like.
01:11:11
Speaker
So suddenly we had to start redesigning the look of the characters. And Sinbad had to get younger and there wasn't enough merchandise being sold from this family attraction. So we needed a sidekick for him, which became this little tiger, which then became plush, which sells very well, I understand. Yes. I will say one thing.
01:11:37
Speaker
There is a scene in the original Sinbad. It's so the land of the monkey people that, again, based on the Arabian night stories, and it's about 30 seconds long because I've timed it. I will say that it's probably the most annoying 30 seconds of any Disney attraction in any park that was ever done. It wasn't in 10.
01:12:02
Speaker
Oh no. Oh no. These monkeys were much more annoying than that because they're angry at you. Okay. They're angry at you in the boat and they're attacking the boat and they're screaming at you the whole time.
01:12:16
Speaker
And it's 30 seconds of monkeys screaming at you. And it's really hard. to really hey ah you know There was no way i just no way that I pictured it being that way, but that's how it ended up. So bringing the music in and actually changing the monkeys to happy monkeys who were playing musical instruments was a big plus. It fixed that scene to where it doesn't annoy the heck out of you when you go through it.
01:12:43
Speaker
and They renamed it Sinbad Storybook Adventure because now it was more of a, I'm going to say family friendly with his sidekick and he's younger and the monsters aren't so scary and the monkeys aren't after you and the music is nicer.
01:13:01
Speaker
So I would still say that 80, 85%, I'm always changing that percentage in my mind, is still the original attraction that we designed. um Because it's a big attraction. It's got a lot of characters and a lot of scenes in it. But the overlay that they did on it changed it enough to where the whole tone of the thing is different now. And it's just a different attraction now. That's crazy. I never knew that. That's basically this.
01:13:31
Speaker
ah but Yeah, that's a great story. Yeah. what What was it like integrating, ah you know, Aladdin and Jasmine and Agrabah and the Tokyo Sea?
Favorite Disney Parks and Closing Thoughts
01:13:42
Speaker
I mean, that those are iconic Disney characters, but also of their own origins, you know, I used to say 2001 Arabian Nights. So what was it like kind of rec recreate all that and then integrate those stories?
01:13:55
Speaker
We still tried to keep their presence there because we knew it was important. And you know you've interviewed Chris Crump and he he was he was in charge of the Magic Lamp Theater. And that, of course, is the big magic show that involved Genie, who's a huge character over there. So that was the big presence of the Genie, especially, in there. We also put custom animals on the caravan carousel. And one of the custom animals is the Genie.
01:14:22
Speaker
And that particular, I don't want to call him an animal, but one of the ride vehicles that you can ride on there. um He became so popular that they had to make more of him and put more of him on the carousel because everybody wanted to ride on the genie.
01:14:36
Speaker
um Jasmine, we made sure that she was there in a couple of places. We designed this really beautiful fountain called Jasmine's Fountain that's out in our marketplace area, the Souk, and there's a beautiful tile mural behind that has Jasmine on it.
01:14:53
Speaker
We have the Agrabah Marketplace, which is the main merchandise store. So we made sure that there was a big mural of the Sultan's Palace that we took straight from the movie. And we have Jasmine's dressing table there to where she would appear magically in the mirror when the little girls would come up and look at it.
01:15:12
Speaker
um We had Abu Suites at first, too. I don't know if the figure is still there, but they had a little you know candy shop there as well, and we had a figure of Abu in there um with some treasure around him, as if he was stealing some of the treasure. And that's mainly how we kept the characters in there. And of course, you have the walk-around characters as well.
01:15:35
Speaker
you know, that are constantly there. Aladdin and Jasmine are always there. And I know Jafar's there too. We did have a shop for Jafar, but they ended up or deciding that they didn't need an extra shop after all that. So it's it's there and it's got a big lock on the front. It says Jafar's magic shop on it, but it's closed by order of the Sultan and it's been closed for 20 plus years now, you know? So if they were going to put a shop in there, they could.
01:16:03
Speaker
But that's where how Jafar is recognized, is he's got his name on the shelf. What's your favorite at Disney park, if you had to pick? If I had to pick, Disneyland will always be my favorite. you know It's the park I grew up with. But as far as parks that I worked on in a major way, Tokyo Disney Sea, hands down, I still think is the most beautiful park the company ever did.
01:16:31
Speaker
And I was lucky enough to be able to go back and enjoy that park afterwards because I was working on other things for Tokyo. And every time I would walk in there and look, I would just, my jaw would just drop because I'd say, I can't believe they let us do this. You know, the level of detail that went into that park and just the total immersion of it is just the most amazing thing. And it's beautiful. And it's so different from the other parks too.
01:16:58
Speaker
And again, it's been embraced by you know the Japanese guests in those two parks. I mean, that's Disneyland will always be you know my favorite because it's Waltz Park. And that's what I grew up with. And I didn't finally get to work on a couple of attractions there. So but you know it's always my beloved park. And the favorite ride, are you still going to stick with Pirates? Oh, absolutely. Pirates of Disneyland, best attraction ever built.
01:17:28
Speaker
Yeah, anywhere. I love it. Well, so Larry, is there anything? How how can we see you more? what Do you have socials? Do you have a YouTube? but how you have a of but how can How can we learn more about you? I'll tell you what you can do for me. well If you go into the gallery, say, hey, have you got anything by Larry Nicolai? You can do that. You also do have a you do have a web page, don't you? I do. Yeah, I do. But if you ever wanted to see new stuff from me in the galleries, you'd have to start asking and then let people know you're interested. But yes, if you want to look at my website, it's just Larry and Nicolai, artists dot com.
01:18:12
Speaker
perfect and you can leave messages there. It doesn't give you a direct link to me, but I do get messages that get passed to me from there, but it's just kind of an overview yeah of a lot of the stuff that I've done, Disney and non-Disney, and it's just a fun place to look at.
01:18:28
Speaker
Will Larry challenge accepted? yeah will I think do we know we'll will' spread the word, we promise. And it's many thing by Larry, absolutely and and larry is there anything else? you know if we We have listeners and you've been inspirational. and And so we always, I don't know, always, but most of the time we'll leave, you know do you have a parting shot or a parting thought or or ah or are you just happy to be here or any of those things? I'm just happy to be here. but as As a Disney fan, as guests of the park, I would look forward to all the new things that they're planning. yeah You know, it sounds exciting. I know they're going to get fleshed out and they're going to change along the way, but this is all new now, you know, and the parks always have to change and they have to grow. So look forward to that. Some of it looks very exciting.
01:19:22
Speaker
does. So yeah i'll I'll look for it too. But, yeah you know, it's the next generation of Imagineers and they've got their work cut out for them. So they're gonna have to rise to the occasion. They sure do, but they are built on solid ground. And I hope so. I think they are. And I think you've been obviously listening to your story. You've been just a wealth of information for one and not just a wealth of information, but boy, just a great story, a great story. And so we're privileged to have you on our podcast and we want to thank you. And I think that's- Thank you for having me.
01:20:02
Speaker
Our pleasure, we'd love to have you back anytime. Yeah, thank you so much. You were terrific. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you for joining us for another enchanting episode of Sharing the Magic. We are the Thinking Fans podcast, an entertainment show where education and entertainment collide each week. We bring you whimsical interviews with Disney guests who share their magical experiences and reveal how they are woven into the Disney fabric. Don't forget to hit that follow button to stay updated on our latest episodes.
01:20:33
Speaker
Spread the word and let your friends know they can tune in wherever they enjoy their favorite podcasts. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and ex, formerly Twitter, at at sharing the magic pod. Until next time, keep sharing the magic.