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Embracing challenge with Brianna de L'airre
429 Plays2 years ago
Brianna is a Coaching Enablement Manager at Wayfair. In this episode, we talk with her about the ins and outs of sales coaching, leveraging Radical Candor to help people succeed at work, and creating environments that balance challenge and care to foster development and growth.
Connect with Brianna on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianna-de-l-airre-7b457644/
Learn more about the Radical Candor framework at https://www.radicalcandor.com/our-approach/
Subscribe to the Content People newsletter at https://meredithfarley.substack.com/
Connect with Meredith at https://www.linkedin.com/in/meredith-farley
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Transcript
Introduction to Content People Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Content People, a podcast where we talk to creative professionals and leaders to get a behind the scenes look at their career experiences. And we try to turn that into actionable advice for you, our listeners. Tune in to hear from experts in various media and get inspired to find contentment in your own career. I'm your host, Meredith Sarley.
00:00:28
Speaker
As some of you know, I used to be the COO at Rafton where I oversaw creative project management and consulting teams. I'm no longer with the company, but Rafton is still producing this podcast. So thanks, Rafton. We recorded this episode a while ago. I think actually it might have been back in the summer. So you will probably hear me make mention of my former role.
00:00:46
Speaker
If you want to keep up with what I'm doing now, you can check me out on LinkedIn and subscribe to my newsletter, also called Content People, which we'll link to in the show notes. Give it a shot. It's a once a week send where I share thoughts and actionable advice based on nearly 15 years of creative leadership. You can also listen, rate, and subscribe to Content People wherever you get your podcasts. Today, I'm here alongside Ian Serbin, creative director of video at Brapton and producer of this show.
Guest Introduction: Ian Serbin & Brianna Delaire
00:01:12
Speaker
Hey, Ian. Hey, Meredith.
00:01:15
Speaker
On today's episode, we talk with Brianna Delaire, a coaching enablement manager at Waitfair, and we get into the weeds about sales coaching.
00:01:23
Speaker
Yeah, this was a really interesting conversation. Um, you know, as someone who's a manager who cares about learning about leadership, I've known a little bit about sales coaching and some of the sort of principles behind it, but I've actually never met or talked to someone that actually did it as a manager. It is so cool to hear from someone who's main job primary focus. It really is to motivate people and help them overcome obstacles and ultimately find success at work. She had a lot of really great insight to share with us.
00:01:54
Speaker
Definitely. I mentioned this in the show, but Brianna is actually also a really good personal friend of mine. It was really fun, also kind of funny to have like a more structured formal combo with her and explore what she learned as a sales coach. Brianna is just such a savvy lady. Brianna, I love you and thank you for doing this episode. With all that said, we'll throw it over to our conversation with Brianna now.
00:02:23
Speaker
Hey Brianna, welcome to Content People. Hi Meredith, thank you for inviting me.
00:02:29
Speaker
I'm very happy you came. So I'll just start off by saying that this is a slightly different podcast in that I've had the chance to talk to lots of people who are super interesting but who
Brianna's Role at Wayfair
00:02:40
Speaker
I don't know very well. You are one of my best friends, so we're going to play professional people on this podcast and talk about work. But some context for the listeners, I suppose. But maybe you could start off by telling us who you are, what you do out wayfair, and talk a little bit about the really cool content-related job that you have
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And thank you again. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It's so exciting to see, you know, your friends, like when they're out there doing something so cool and be a part of that. And so I'm really grateful to be here. My name is Brianna Dallaire. I work at Wefair in our B2B department, Business to Business. And my current role is I'm a senior manager of the Coaching Enablement Team.
00:03:25
Speaker
So what we do is enable our frontline coaches with coaching content and optimize tools for coaches so that they can go out there, concentrate on supporting sales behaviors, getting the best of their teams, and focus less on whether or not their tools are working and more on what's really important, which is just person-to-person connection.
00:03:50
Speaker
Thank you. You have such an interesting job. I'm so excited to dig into a review.
Wayfair's B2B Strategy
00:03:56
Speaker
One thing maybe I would start with, which I feel like is one of my first questions when you first told me about your role is, can you explain the B2B side of Wayfair to folks because I was thinking of Wayfair B2C and I was like, who are you selling to? What is this team? Yeah. Yeah. B2B is
00:04:13
Speaker
Fabulous. So the majority of Wayfair, of course, is our B2C selling to customer, but we do have a branch of Wayfair where we sell direct to businesses. So someone might say, well, what's on Wayfair that supports businesses? We offer such a variety of products that work really well with specific verticals. So we're selling to
00:04:40
Speaker
Contractors, interior designers were selling to office spaces all the way from mom and pop shops who are looking to establish themselves and start a new storefront all the way up to hotel chains and property developers. Very important question. Can you confirm or deny that the entire set of 365 days was always there? Yes or no? Are you allowed to say? I can neither confirm nor deny.
00:05:09
Speaker
But I will say that you might have allegedly pointed out that some of those items were very similarly all available on the Wayfair website. I don't know who manages their set design, but equitable taste for sure.
00:05:27
Speaker
Well, I suppose it wasn't the real focus. All right, interesting. So what is the average day in the light of Brianna at work? I don't think there is a singular average day. It really depends on what we're working on. And so I would say the one consistent element throughout my days is that I am connecting with a lot of different people.
00:05:57
Speaker
I connect with my team daily, so I have a tiny but mighty team of two content developers. We wear a lot of different hats on the team, but I make sure to have a connection point with them where we go over everything from what they have planned for the day to what they had done the previous night and have a really loose
00:06:22
Speaker
connection that is fun, friendly, but professionally driven. And then throughout the day, I'm staying connected with our stakeholders, connecting with sales program leaders, connecting with frontline reps, connecting with our operations team and our tools team and all of that good stuff. And so I find myself often in a project manager role where I'm the connective tissue between our centralized operations team and our sales teams.
00:06:52
Speaker
really aligning with everyone to make sure we have our key objectives in mind and moving projects forward. I love the description of you as connective tissue. Sure, ligaments. Like a tendon. Yeah, exactly.
00:07:10
Speaker
So I want to come back to how much you talk to your team and how you cultivate a team environment in this remote world, but I'm really curious about what type of content is your team creating and how are you deciding what to create?
Adult Learning in Coaching
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. So a big focus on the training and coaching team, which is the team that I'm under in B2B training and coaching,
00:07:37
Speaker
We focus predominantly on creating content that helps our coaches selling behaviors. And so what we aim to do and something I think I see in a lot of spaces is requests tend to come to us as being
00:07:55
Speaker
sometimes complicated. And what we find ourselves asking is how can we simplify this into a singular action? How can we simplify this to a point where a frontline rep is going to know how to implement this or a coach is going to know how to to enact this, you know, in coaching space. And so we're producing content that supports sales behavior, like how to do pre-call research, you know, where to look for
00:08:22
Speaker
how to identify who to call when to call and really making sure it's catered towards individuals and making sure it's approachable by our coaches. So kind of creating the process
00:08:40
Speaker
documentation and how to for elements of the sales job that then the coaches take that content and they use it to, all right guys, here's the documentation around how we want you to be doing research around prospects, here are the steps. And then they're kind of rolling it out and coaching the sales reps about how to utilize those frameworks. But you guys are the ones who are doing the thinking about
00:09:03
Speaker
What has to be done and how do we present it in a succinct and readable way? Do I have that right or am I missing something? We try to make things as simple as possible and I gave you such a complicated answer. That's what doing a lot is creating e-learnings to support
00:09:21
Speaker
new coaches on how to coach. We create facilitation guides on coaching interactions. So Mayor, if you're a frontline rep on a team and I'm a coach, my team might create a facilitation guide that's super straightforward, that walks you through an activity of how to support a very specific sales behavior.
00:09:41
Speaker
And we also work with our tools team to optimize coaching tools to make sure they're straightforward, readable, and they are solving for the needs of our coaches. Got it. And so the coaches in some ways are kind of your client.
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think our sales partners, our clients, at the end of the day, our true clients, the businesses that we're working with, we have to keep their interest top of mind as well. But predominantly, we're working with frontline managers and we're working with coaches. We have a kind of a unique
00:10:22
Speaker
with coaches in B2B called the Senior Sales Coaches, and they're entirely a team dedicated to coaching frontline reps to help support managers with coaching. And so we work really, really closely with them, helping to design their training curriculum for when we bring new ones on board and making sure they're holding true to our coaching methodology.
00:10:46
Speaker
So the sales team has a direct manager and then the coaches work with the sales folks and support the manager in training, process, onboarding, sales behaviors, all that good stuff. It's really interesting because it's internal content, but obviously incredibly commercially important content. I think a lot of times when folks think of content, they think,
00:11:10
Speaker
logs for a website or an e-book or that type of industry facing collateral. How do you think internal content is different and what are some of the challenges of creating it? Yeah, that's a good question and I think it's something that we're always looking to innovate on and improve on.
00:11:31
Speaker
I think something that I always keep as a North Star is that whenever you conduct a training or you have a coaching session or you're engaging with content, it has to be as valuable, if not more valuable, than that person's time connecting with their partner. It has to immediately be relevant. It has to immediately be applicable. And they have to know what's in it for me.
00:11:55
Speaker
When we think about creating content to support managers, sales rep coaches, we really want to make it action forward. We really want to keep adult learning principles top of mind. They have to know how to immediately apply it to their role.
00:12:11
Speaker
We have to make it approachable and easily understood. We've been leaning very heavily into video, we've been leaning into audio. Instead of doing scenarios, we're trying to directly take transfer from interactions with customers and really make it as applicable and understandable as possible upfront.
00:12:37
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense. As you say it, I'm like, I love these as guiding principles for content in general. When you talk about adult learning styles, can you just say a little bit more about that? Yeah, adult learning principles. There are
00:12:53
Speaker
Learning principles for children, there are learning principles for adults. It's like the difference between pedagogy when you're a kid, you're a sponge when you're a kid. You can just sit in a room, someone can teach you geography, and you can learn geography even though it's not directly applicable to you immediately, but you learn it. As an adult, we learn completely differently. When I'm learning something, I learn best by doing.
00:13:19
Speaker
You have to immediately understand the value of what you're learning and be able to apply it immediately. And you need to have your objectives upfront, you know what I mean? Kind of the guiding framework that we use when we're creating content.
00:13:41
Speaker
That makes a lot of sense. I feel like as you're talking about that, I'm thinking, too, about how important that is for things like internal email communications on a business. And also, I would say email marketing and social media messaging, too. You have to immediately tell people in one breath what this is and why it's important to you. Otherwise, whoosh, moved on. Yeah, I don't care. And especially for salespeople where I know it's like the old saying, time is money. But it's true.
00:14:11
Speaker
I challenge my team to say if we're in a meeting with someone, if we're taking someone off the floor, what we're offering has to be more valuable than the amount of money they could have made on the floor with their clients. At the end of the day, money is king, right? We have to be able to prove our worth. We have to be able to have a value at stake and say, this is why it's important that you read this. This is why it's important that you engage with this training and this is why it's important that you're coaching.
00:14:40
Speaker
You could have like a little tick there on everyone's video monitor. That's like how terrifying. Brutal side of you Brianna. I love.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So that makes you, but so when you talk about like pedagogy, you were a teacher for a moment. And so I'm super curious, maybe you could kind of walk back and, you know, you are also, obviously you are a business woman, but you're also an incredibly talented artist and maker and the most like prolific creative working person I know. I don't know how you do all these art projects all the time. So could you talk a little bit about kind of your
00:15:21
Speaker
personal journey from art and art school to teaching and then to B2B sales enablement. Yeah. I grew up in the streets of art school. So I have a very unconventional background in the world of business. Maybe it's not so unconventional because artists are business people as well. But I went to school to be an art educator and to be an artist.
00:15:47
Speaker
And kind of like, I joke about it, but I feel just like lucky to be here. You know, when I was early in my career, I envisioned myself as like the artist warrior, like person out here making art, changing the world. And my father has always joked that I was designed and meant to go to Harvard Business School. And to this day, he's still like, Brianna, you have to go to Harvard.
00:16:12
Speaker
dad, we can talk about it. But like while in school, it was somewhat ingrained in me that artists are also business people. You know, anyone trying to make a livelihood about or to selling their work needs to pay themselves back, needs to pay themselves first. I had one professor, Steve Locke, who I still think about all the time and he's an amazing artist and you should check out his work. He's super, super cool.
00:16:42
Speaker
But I just remember someone being like, Steve, how do you do this? And he was like, well, start with minimum wage, pay yourself at least minimum wage, take into account all of your materials, take into account your education, take into account time spent, figure it out, break it down square inch by square inch, and then price your work that way. Like one of the most straightforward lessons I've ever had about knowing your own worth,
00:17:11
Speaker
And so, you know, you learn a lot. It sounds like ridiculous. You learn so much in school, but you learn so much more than, you know, the curriculum. Yeah. My art school education really taught me the importance of my own time. And so I when I graduated, I was teaching for a little bit and I, you know, I went through my practicum.
00:17:35
Speaker
I left knowing I didn't really want to be a public educator, but knowing that I really love working with people and knowing that I really loved keeping interaction and bringing the best out of people.
Brianna's Career Journey
00:17:50
Speaker
I was just lucky enough to note someone who worked at Wayfair at the time who was like, hey, we're hiring if working with interior designers, you have an art background, you've worked in retail, why don't you give it a shot, ended up
00:18:05
Speaker
getting hired as an entry-level salesperson and just thinking, I am going to be in this job for maybe a year. Maybe a year because again, I had the artist warrior mentality and then struggled with myself because I loved it.
00:18:24
Speaker
I beat myself up so much because I was like, oh, I'm just following into the footsteps my father laid for me as a child to like Harvard Business School mentality. But I really loved working with people. I really loved selling. I really loved Wayfair. It's been just an amazing environment to grow up in. And so I found myself with
00:18:45
Speaker
incredibly driven, ambitious managers who defined my success as their success. I had one manager, Jess Harrington, I'll never forget saying like, Brianna, if you succeed, it means I'm succeeding. And so with that mentality in mind, grew my career at Wayfair, moved from
00:19:06
Speaker
an entry-level salesperson to a senior salesperson to a manager, a sales manager, and then transitioned into training and coaching. I've been lucky enough to develop my role in training and coaching and grow my team, and it's been just an absolute crazy adventure.
00:19:23
Speaker
So long winded, I'm so sorry. No, it was totally great. As you were talking, I was remembering visiting you in the Wayfair office, which obviously pre-COVID, and it was a magical space with scooters or something. Yeah. It's got strong startup vibes. The snacks are good. Absolutely infamous.
00:19:52
Speaker
Well, it's kind of funny how you were in art education and you're in a somewhat of an educator role right now. Do you feel that way or does it feel very different from that in practice?
00:20:05
Speaker
I think coaching and teaching are different for sure because teaching, and especially I went to school to teach public K through 12. So childhood education is so different, again, how we discuss them on adult learning principles. But I also think coaching is so much more about self-discovery.
00:20:31
Speaker
while teaching is imparting information. So I do leverage so much what I've learned as an educator in the coaching space. But I think my takeaway is from that or maybe not as straightforward. I think a lot about the idea of a classroom.
00:20:54
Speaker
learning space, and that's all taken from when I was a teacher. I feel like I'm referencing so many people from the past, but I had one professor in school who was saying, forget about the importance of your walls, right? Your walls can teach. So in a virtual setting or in a coaching setting, I'm thinking like how could create an environment that is also conducive to learning and self-discovery. Interesting. Yeah.
00:21:24
Speaker
So when you're saying your walls can teach, he's referencing the things you as a teacher might choose to put up on the walls. So what art do you feel like one can create a virtual space? I suppose it would be your own workspace that is somehow coaching or teaching. Is that possible? I think what I take from that is that space is intentional.
00:21:47
Speaker
I think you can do that in a virtual setting by creating a space by calling it into existence. So you can say, Meredith, so excited to meet with you today. We're going to have a coaching discussion before we get into it. We can talk about X, Y, and Z, but are you ready? Here's our goal for today, establish the space. Yes, I love that. So establishing the space just through
00:22:16
Speaker
I am speaking into existence, the structure that we are going to inhabit throughout this conversation. Yes. Yeah. Or are you ready? Because it has to be an educated guess, right? Like, seeing as a two-way street and so much of it is unbearable. Like, coaching should kind of be uncomfortable because it's challenging. So being in the right mental space in order to have a coaching conversation is so important.
00:22:41
Speaker
Do you mean, and also too, when you said coaching is kind of about self-discovery, I presume that you mean coaching is about helping the one being coached to discover. And so when you say it should be uncomfortable, do you mean like the one being coached might feel a little uncomfortable? Yeah, absolutely. I'm a woman of many one-liners.
00:23:05
Speaker
One of my favorites is you can't grow when you're comfortable and you can't be comfortable when you grow. And that's why they're called growing pain. But it's challenging, especially when you're being coached on the right thing, you have resistance to it because you're ingrained in a certain way. It feels like you're challenging.
00:23:29
Speaker
that it feels like you're challenging something that has grown in a specific way and that that always is like, oh, it feels weird. But that's kind of how you know it's working.
Coaching Techniques: Radical Candor & Inquiry
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really, a very thoughtful thing and helpful to keep in mind because a lot of roles, so many roles, like job specs, et cetera, you know, people are looking for a player coach. Like their coaching has become such an important part of what kind of manager somebody is. And when, if you're pushing someone a direction and you can tell they're feeling a little uncomfortable, I think a manager needs a certain amount of experience to feel
00:24:09
Speaker
comfort with their staff's discomfort and to not kowtow to people pleasing, smoothing things over, not having the conversation you need to have because it feels a little confrontational or a little potentially just challenging, I suppose. Yeah, I think you're hitting on a little candor. Yeah. It's like you have to care. You have to care what you have to challenge.
00:24:37
Speaker
Okay, we've talked about radical candor. Would you mind defining it a little bit here in case folks aren't familiar? Yeah, yeah radical candor I mean, it's it's like carrying implicitly having like genuine hair for someone but also challenging them It's a matrix and I am forgetting the name of the woman who is the author of radical candor. I'm gonna look it up Good we character. Oh, it's his worst his words knowing
00:25:09
Speaker
I'm Kim Scott. Kim Scott is the author of Rattle of the Year. All right. We can throw some Rattle of the Candor notes in the show notes for anyone who wants to check that out. The concepts of Rattle of the Candor are so important and I think the other thing to remember is there is no such thing as you don't just become a coach. Coaching is also a learned skill.
00:25:33
Speaker
And so there are skills that go into being a coach and it's a practice. I actually like referring to it as a practice, like my own coaching practice, because it's something that develops over time. It's a language you develop. But the core concepts of creating safe space, like a psychologically safe space,
00:25:54
Speaker
to have a one-to-one connection where your coach knows that you have the best intentions for them. So when you're challenging them, it is in an effort to see them grow.
00:26:07
Speaker
and really just making sure that in that scenario, if your coachee says something that's wrong, if you're the coach, you owe it to them to say, hey, that might not be the right answer, but have you thought about looking at it this way? Or what's another way that you can answer that? Or this is wrong because X, Y, and Z, so really spelling it out. What is another way that we can do it?
00:26:37
Speaker
So like a responsibility to not let things slide because of the dynamic you want both consensually entered into, which is that you are the coach, they are the coachy or mentee. You care about them and their performance. And as such, you're the coach.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah, candid in a radical way. In a radical way, otherwise you fall into like one of the other matrix quadrants is ruinous empathy. And that is when you basically just yes someone or if someone gives you the wrong answer and you're like, that was awesome, but then they never improved. You're never going to see improvement if you just, you know, are a people pleaser.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, whenever we talk about this, I feel like I know I sometimes am conflating coaching with management, but I feel like it's just so true. So like, remind me again, the x-axis is what? What's on the x-axis of this matrix? So care and challenge. Care, so I say care is on one side, challenge is on the other side. And then the y-axis is?
00:27:42
Speaker
What again? No, no, no. Care challenge. Care is the x-axis. Y is the challenge. Yes, exactly. So you have obnoxious aggression. Let me get into that one. It's obnoxious aggression is high challenge, low care. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Nailed it. True. There's ruinous empathy, high care, no challenge.
00:28:09
Speaker
ruin his empathy. You care a lot. You care almost so much about how they feel. And you're uncomfortable when they're uncomfortable, so you're not gonna challenge them at all.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And radical cancer is high care, high challenge. And then there's manipulative insecurity. Manipulative insecurity? Insincerity, sorry. Manipulative insincerity. Oh, that sounds like a psycho one. So that is like, that would be, wait, manipulative insincerity, that would be
00:28:45
Speaker
What's that, high, what is that one? High challenge, low care. So that would be.
00:28:53
Speaker
It sounds like you care, but you're not challenging, or you're not caring or challenging. Oh, no care, no challenge, just manipulative insincerity. Yeah. I have to say, this is the second time I've tried to talk about a matrix with someone on this podcast. I think I'm doing better this time, the first time I glossed over.
00:29:19
Speaker
I hope that there's a lot of visual learners listening. We'll put it in the show notes. I think it really applies to lots of management and I also love how vicious and brutal these are. I know. The nomenclature is radical. But I think I'm actually interested in the conversation around the differences between managing and coaching. Because in my mind, I think they are different.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I think that we ask managers to be coaches a lot. I think the expectation is that if you're a manager or coach, but as I said before, being a coach is a skill and one that you need to develop. It's not just like the second you become a manager, you also become a coach.
00:30:08
Speaker
I think there are very specific differences between the two. I think managers have to be really powerful feedback givers to be able to find in the sand and say, here's the situation, here's the behavior, here's the impact. Whereas coaches are really strong question-askers to say, what happened? What did you see? What you learned? What will you do?
00:30:35
Speaker
And I think those are two very different frames of mind. Maybe I'm thinking like way too black and white, but I think those are different styles of conversation. So I think they yield different results and both are incredibly important.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I think I feel like I vacillate between the two throughout the day, depending on the relationship I have with the person that I'm overseeing. Yeah. I think probably more junior folks. I probably manage a little bit more. I'm more like, these are the four things you need to do. Any questions? Great. And then for folks who are either
00:31:10
Speaker
more senior and or who I feel like have potential to continue growing into their role a little bit. I'm probably doing a lot more coaching. Just giving them tons of boring anecdotes that they're very politely listening to me about.
00:31:28
Speaker
How would you define the difference between the two? Well, I guess you said already. Coaching is like questioning, helping them discover in themselves their own, the answers, and then putting guardrails on it. Management is more just like, you did this wrong, next time do this, a little more one-sided, would you say? Yeah. I don't know that it always has to be
00:31:52
Speaker
I think managers set expectations and they define firms of success and they establish goals. You help your team by removing role blocks, you help your team by providing feedback, you support your team in that way as a manager, and you have management conversations. There's a difference between a performance management conversation and a coaching conversation.
00:32:18
Speaker
I feel like that's kind of where the distinction comes into play. But just like you said, I think you switch, you go back and forth, you can have a management conversation right before you have a coaching conversation. Hey, Mayor, I've noticed that there has been a drop in the amount of outbound calls that you've made. And so the goal that we have is X, Y, and Z. Let's have a coaching conversation. Let's talk about it.
00:32:46
Speaker
or do you want to have a coaching conversation about that? It's like you manage situations and you coach people and behaviors. Yes, exactly. You manage to results, you coach to behavior.
00:33:01
Speaker
We'll like that. All right, cool. Well, let's come back a little bit to your own team and your own management style and collaboration style. So it sounds like you are doing daily group ups with your folks, is that right? That is correct, yeah.
00:33:17
Speaker
How do you approach them? How do you structure them? What are you trying to accomplish in those moments and meetings? Yeah. I said this to my team. My goal for my team is to have them feel and be empowered so that they feel like even if they don't know the answer to something, they're able to find solutions. They feel empowered to share their voices. I want them to basically work me out of a job.
00:33:46
Speaker
So my goal for my team is to feel like even if I'm not there, that they have things completely under control.
00:33:54
Speaker
It's a great call. And so I work really hard to create an environment that I trust them implicitly. I have a new employee. She's been in the role for maybe like 90 days now. And she is already owning projects, building relationships across teams. And it kind of starts with day one of just
00:34:21
Speaker
calling that into existence, saying, hey, I trust you. We're going to work together. You're going to make mistakes. That's okay. It's not just okay. It's kind of my expectation because the only way you're going to learn is if you make mistakes. And so as a manager, I'm also a coach.
00:34:37
Speaker
And I am building the behavior of ownership and leadership, strong content developers who are using critical thinking techniques and challenging for clarity and really, really strong communicators.
00:34:54
Speaker
I think, I know we've chatted on it a bit, but I think in a remote world, those daily touch points are, well, for me, they're super important. I love talking to my team every day, even if it's not a super formal,
00:35:10
Speaker
reporting, meeting of any kind. It's just like, how's it going? How are you feeling? How's the team feeling? Let's chat about XYZ. And I feel like it makes me feel more. It reminds me that I'm working with people. I'm not just working with a computer screen. But I know there are some folks who feel a little bit differently and
00:35:29
Speaker
Yeah, I have never been a, this isn't, this could have been an email person. Really? I mean, maybe I just, maybe sometimes I think I, well, no, I'll be honest. No, I haven't. I think it's because, I think we've talked about this a little, there's that essay managing oneself, which is a great classic essay, and they talk a lot about
00:35:51
Speaker
At one point, are you a reader or are you a talker? The anecdote is that I think it was LBJ after Kennedy was assassinated came into Kennedy's team. Kennedy was a huge reader, so they would put complex, comprehensive briefs together. He would read them earlier in the morning and just know everything. He'd absorb it, be like, good, I'm good for the day, I get it, and he'd be briefed. They were doing the same thing.
00:36:19
Speaker
for Johnson, who was not a reader. And he was just like, they were like, why is he like, didn't he read the briefs? He doesn't know about XYZ, but he was a talker. So he, what he needed was people to come in and like talk to him. And I always assumed that I would be a reader since I was a writer.
00:36:37
Speaker
But I am not, I'm a talker. And it's helpful for me to process and talk things out because I feel like I'm going to have questions, et cetera. But I don't know if it comes back to, like, one thing I feel like we've talked about that I'm really interested for your thoughts on is when we think of salespeople or leaders generally, we tend to think extrovert.
00:36:59
Speaker
I'm curious about how introvert versus extrovert impacts how you lead your teams and what you think.
Traits for Sales Success
00:37:07
Speaker
Does one need to be an extrovert to be successful in sales? I think it's a really interesting question. I don't think you have to be an extrovert to be successful in sales. I think
00:37:21
Speaker
extrovert, like I'm an extroverted person with like an introversion caramel center. Like I'm an introverted extrovert or an extroverted introvert. I've got a little bit of both. I think everybody does.
00:37:40
Speaker
But I think in sales, we tend to reward people who exhibit extroverted behaviors. But just because you're extroverted doesn't necessarily mean you are a very, very strong salesperson. I mean, obviously, right? But I think to me, strong sales folks are listeners.
00:38:08
Speaker
people who are listening to their clients, there are people who are identifying areas where their clients need help because the best sales are ones that clients are excited to make.
00:38:22
Speaker
And people who are excited to make sales are ones who see the value in what they're buying, right? And so with our sales team, we're working with millions and millions and millions of products, right? And we're working with a whole swath of types of clients and businesses that all have really particular needs, that all have different things that they value.
00:38:52
Speaker
If you're just the loudest person in the room, and I'm saying that extroverts are always the loudest person in the room, they're not. But if you're so extroverted that you forget to listen, you might sound like a great salesperson, but it definitely won't show up in your numbers. I've definitely been coaching and listened to calls and said to myself,
00:39:15
Speaker
This sounds like such an engaging call, but why didn't it go anywhere? And then you actually think about the actions on the call. They just had a great conversation, but it didn't actually lead to a next step. It didn't actually lead to uncovering the client's need or anything. And so if you're not a really strong listener, you're not going to get anywhere.
00:39:37
Speaker
So if someone is an introvert and they want a career in sales, like what do you think?
00:39:47
Speaker
they might need to be mindful of insofar as perceptions or behaviors that could help them be recognized for the abilities that they have, even if they don't fit a stereotypical mold. Yeah. I think sales are one of the more beautiful career paths because at the end of the day, it's all results.
00:40:08
Speaker
So even if you don't sound like what you think of when you think of a salesperson, if you have the results to show that you're effective and you're impactful, that's really all that matters. So if you're a more introverted person, I would say lean into curiosity.
00:40:29
Speaker
I would say lean into questioning and lean into listening. And if you are a curious person who is interested in learning about people who asked the right questions to uncover the needs of your clients and you are able to identify the products that they need, you're gonna be a successful salesperson. Hmm, I love that. Wow, that's really interesting.
00:40:54
Speaker
So kind of somewhat related to introversion, extroversion, people feeling like they fit the mold of the job that they have or want.
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
00:41:03
Speaker
Impostor syndrome. Number one, do you think you have it?
00:41:09
Speaker
I definitely feel I have moments of imposter syndrome. And I think part of that might come from the nontraditional background where I'm like looking around like, Oh my God, it's me. It's me I'm making.
00:41:25
Speaker
I absolutely respect, appreciate, and have put so much value into my education. But I think sometimes I'm like, oh my God, I have gotten here from experience.
00:41:42
Speaker
where I am in my career to speak with the experience that I've had in the people that have been amazing managers and coaches. So I definitely encounter moments of imposter syndrome for sure. And I think what I am appreciative of is that those are just moments.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's not like the full-on, like, every day you first walk through a wall in Foster Syndrome and walk out. Yeah, but I think that's a part of growing pains, right? Anytime you feel in Foster Syndrome is a crossroads of feeling challenged. And so it's a moment for myself to look at my own career from a coaching perspective and to provide myself some feedback.
00:42:34
Speaker
And I was like, is it like imposter syndrome is your very own coach? But it's not the syndrome. It's like the. It's not that imposter syndrome as a coach. What it is is the vibe of feeling challenged. And so, you know, when you go to a place and like this is what our reps feel like or this is why, you know, anyone who is.
00:42:58
Speaker
growing in a role has moments of questioning their own performance, has moments of questioning their own value and their own input. And I think just as I would hope our coaches would challenge our coaches to say like, hey, why are you feeling that way? Or can you talk me through that feeling? Where is it coming from? Because what it is is a symptom, but it's not the cause, right?
00:43:24
Speaker
And so you don't coach the symptom, you don't coach the imposter syndrome, but you want to take a look at like where you think it's coming from. And then you can make an action plan against it.
00:43:35
Speaker
I think that makes so much sense. And I think, too, that I feel for folks who are 22, 23 in their very first job out of school, everything feels so challenging sometimes because you've never encountered it. You've never worked through a moment of imposter syndrome or a moment of being like, who am I? How did I get here? It's really my reality. I kind of wondered, too. I feel like sometimes what's been helpful in the past around those things is
00:44:03
Speaker
You know, you read the room for a sec, you get a little validation. You're like, no, what I said wasn't insane or the way I approach this is normal. I wonder in a digital environment how.
00:44:12
Speaker
if they, like, how they get out the same positive confirming feedback or reassurance. I'm sure it happens via Zoom. Well, I think it's interesting because I don't think feedback's passive. What you're talking about is walls talking, right? Walls teaching, where you look around, you see behavior around you, you're in an office space, you can model yourself off of someone, you can have a, you know. Yeah, yeah.
00:44:39
Speaker
In a virtual setting, it's so much harder, right? The lens is a distancing. It's really, really hard to say, you know, how was my performance chucking up against another person's performance? Or is my performance chucking up against my own expectations for this role? And so you kind of have to switch your mentality from passive to active in that case. And it is more challenging. I know, like,
00:45:05
Speaker
It's exhausting for them, it can be. Being more engaged is so important to reach out and ask for feedback and get 360 feedback. Ask for feedback from your stakeholders, ask for feedback from your clients, ask for feedback from your manager and your manager's manager, and ask for it in the spirit of radical candor. I think that's really, really good advice. I love that.
00:45:32
Speaker
It's hard, it's uncomfortable. Yeah. And it's funny too, I think maybe another element of that is too, is being willing to give feedback when people ask and figure out a way to be truthful though, kind. I think so. Often people might too, you ask someone for feedback and they might not feel for whatever reason comfortable saying what they actually think. Yeah. And so it's like,
00:46:04
Speaker
what did you call it, being very proactive and active and engaged and asking for the feedback. And also, as a colleague, being a willing participant and providing that feedback to folks. Yeah, and asking for feedback on specific things, right? I think asking for vague feedback can be more harmful sometimes, I think that's the right word, but
00:46:29
Speaker
Ask for help on a very specific thing, and especially if you're not a circle at back, having imposter syndrome.
00:46:37
Speaker
isolate out what's triggering that and ask for feedback on it. We need mirrors to see ourselves and people who are mirrors in this digital environment are our colleagues and our managers. So that's the only way we can truly get a good snapshot of where we are. Yeah. That's a sound bite. You should save that.
00:47:07
Speaker
Oh, all right. Well, like in the last few minutes, I don't have too much time left, but we touched on the fact that you are an artist, you're a maker, you have a very creative background, and then you're in this very, um, you know, commercially focused role.
00:47:24
Speaker
How do you balance that? Sometimes I wonder, is it work for you to push yourself? Because you're very prolific. You do more crafts and projects in one year than most people do in a decade. Does that come out? And then also, sometimes I'm curious, do you ever feel like one of your identities fits you more
Integrating Art Education with Sales Enablement
00:47:45
Speaker
than the other? And how do you balance those two sides of yourself? We're asking the deep questions, Mer.
00:47:53
Speaker
I don't think that I don't see the two sides of myself as two sides. It feels like a whole thing. But I think I am a real big proponent of work time is spent in work time and then everything else is your time.
00:48:16
Speaker
I think time management is incredibly important, which, again, a practice, not something that is perfect. But, you know, really holding true to working hours, making sure they don't bleed into your own personal outlook. Yeah.
00:48:34
Speaker
I don't know if it's feedback or reflection from my father, who is one of the wisest human beings on the planet. And I think we actually talked about this yesterday, but like your mind recharges in two ways. One of them is sleep, one of them is play.
00:48:49
Speaker
And so it's an important practice in this world to figure out what your play is as an adult, because it's not the same thing when you're a kid. Figuring out what is play to you. And so I really, really am charged by, you know, creating and making and exploring. And it looks, I think like you kind of referred to how I have a lot of different creative practices, but
00:49:14
Speaker
Part of that is just following curiosity and exploring new things and new mediums. I am so incredibly grateful to have a role, a job that allows me to sustain a creative lifestyle and supports my artistic practices.
00:49:39
Speaker
I think that's a really helpful way to think about it. And I guess I asked that question too, thinking about some people who maybe work in creative fields, creative marketing, who kind of struggle sometimes where they're like, oh, I thought it feels a little bit like
00:49:56
Speaker
they're doing something adjacent to the artistic work they'd hoped to do, but I think the way you're outlining it is like a really healthy mental framework for thinking about your job as something that supports your creative life as opposed to something that has to be your creative life. Well, listen, I went through all that when I was in my early 20s when I first got hired with Wayfair and I was like, I'm supposed to be like a warrior poet.
00:50:20
Speaker
It was the concept of supposed to be that really got me. That was the thing when I went back to reflect on that, I was like, who said that? Who said I was supposed to be this? Who said I was supposed to be X, Y, and Z, and what goal? It was myself, right? How dare they say this about me? But it was myself. I was the one who was saying,
00:50:50
Speaker
your creative practices and passions are supposed to be the things that fuel you and why? To what end? I actually get so much more satisfaction from flexing into a part of my brain that I otherwise wouldn't have known. I loved. I loved problem solving. I love communicating. I love working with different types of people under a shared goal and finding solutions. That is so fulfilling to me.
00:51:14
Speaker
And it's different than the part of my brain that is like wildly fulfilled by creative endeavors by the me. And so I don't feel the need to sequester my identity into one or the other. And I think there are elements that bleed into both. And I think anyone who's like really struggling with
00:51:40
Speaker
identity and like professional identity and how it is like that concept that's supposed to be, I'm supposed to be this. Take a look at what you like about one aspect of your work. Take a look at what you like about your creative endeavors and like do they have to be each other? And for some people it's yes, and that's totally fine too. But I think a lot of us feel a lot of applied pressure and we're the ones applying it.
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great, really helpful advice.
Conclusion & Listener Engagement
00:52:15
Speaker
And I feel like you gave some amazing nuggets of wisdom throughout this conversation. So thank you so much, Brianna. And if you were to follow you, LinkedIn with you, et cetera, where are the best spots to look up Brianna online?
00:52:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think LinkedIn is the best spot. So Brianna Dallaire, and I apologize. Well, I don't apologize, but I warn ahead of time. My last name is a little bit like a password. We're pretty in the show notes. Everyone can put lots of postographies and lowercase letters where you don't expect them. There's grammar in there. There's grammar in there. Be careful.
00:52:52
Speaker
But LinkedIn would be the best place to connect. If anybody has any resources that they want to share with me on coaching, on sales behaviors, and developing teams, I'm always a student, always learning, and I'm always looking to support my own practice. So I send it on back, so you want to connect with me. I'll connect with you too, and I'm so excited to grow the network.
00:53:23
Speaker
All right, everyone. Hope you enjoyed our chat with Brianna. Next week, we'll be talking with Jessica Holton, CEO and co-founder of Ours, a relationship health company. And we'll make a couple little plugs here. To support the show, you can rate, review, and subscribe. Those things make a huge difference, and we appreciate it. And if you like this conversation, you would probably like my fledgling newsletter, Content People. We'll throw a link in the show notes to subscribe if you're interested.
00:53:51
Speaker
And that's it folks, thanks so much for listening. If you wanna get in touch, you can always email us at contentpeople at rafton.com.