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Podcast 34 Preview
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John's Returned Box and Office Mishaps
00:00:02
Speaker
John, did George resend your box that was meant to turn up to you? Not that I'm aware of. I've got a meeting with him Friday, tomorrow. So I'm chatting about it then. We had a box return to us. It returned it to sender. So yeah, I think he was going to get a... Yeah, I saw that at George's. It's a certain address we can send it to, which we normally then pick it up from. So we'll get it sorted instead. I got caught with that the other day, Carl. So I got this text message in the office that was like, you just received a choco gram?
00:00:30
Speaker
Yeah. I got like a little bit excited. I was like, oh, someone sent me chocolate. I went down to the lobby and I ended up with like an arm full of boxes. One tiny little thing that was like a choco gram and like four or five of these return to sender merch boxes.
00:00:49
Speaker
Cause like, yeah, every construction site's got the same problem.
Challenges with Construction Deliveries
00:00:52
Speaker
Cause like people, it's like hard to deliver to them or some random like it's not an address. It's like by the side of the road in between this building and this building. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gate 42. There's like a sign that's hanging off. And then the delivery guy is like, he's got to make 700 deliveries in an hour. Uh, it's like, I'm not stopping. Keep going. Return to sender.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit of a... Yeah, the chocolate was good. Well, actually, I lied. The chocolate was not that good. It said, like, a little message in chocolate, which we technically... I reckon we should do that in our boxes. Yeah. I remember about six years ago, we sent branded marshmallows, and they were awful. Like, they looked bad. They tasted bad. Everything about it was terrible, but it looked really nice on the website. So we bought a few and sent them out.
00:01:47
Speaker
Sounds like you just ate them all and needed an excuse to eat them all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's terrible. We couldn't send them out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To keep them all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice.
Podcast Preparations and Guest Introduction
00:01:57
Speaker
Right, Ollie, are you happy? Because there's a fire alarm in this building at 10, so I don't want to hit that. No? Wicked. John, ready to go? Let's go. Nice. Good stuff.
00:02:09
Speaker
Right. I always forget that we've got the prerecorded intro now. We just go straight. You just spent 10 minutes telling John about it and then you forgot that you had it. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Uh, what did we start? Oh yeah. Welcome back. Yeah, that was my opening line. Sweet. I'm now smiling too much. It looks really weird at the beginning of this video. Welcome back to the pod. So today we're joined by Balfour Beatty director John Chu.
00:02:39
Speaker
He's a well-known guy across the building division within Balfour BT. He's a keen advocate of technology. He's flown through the ranks over the past, well, over his career so far. The CV is like a real perfect example of what career progression looks like within an organization. I've got to know him over the past year or so. So I've been really looking forward to this. So welcome to the pod, John. Thank you.
Early Career Challenges and Experiences
00:03:09
Speaker
So you started at Balfa BT as a graduate site manager. That's right. When I think of a typical site manager, it's a strong vocal kind of person commanding respect over lots of people on site. What was it actually like doing that as a graduate?
00:03:28
Speaker
Well, yeah, you're the guy with hardly any hair on your face, very squeaky voice that no one wants to respect. It's normally what kind of happens when you're a graduate, when you just start. So, yeah, it is tough. It is tough because you're going into an industry with people that have got many years experience above you and you're trying to organise them and manage them.
00:03:46
Speaker
and trying to get their respect and then to listen to what you're trying to say is always the hardest challenge of the first couple of years to get that respect and get people actually working with you collaboratively and not thinking that someone hasn't got a clue and it's better just to ignore you and crack on.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. Because yeah, as you say, like fresh faced coming onto site, it's a bit like I don't, I'm imagining it as a bit like becoming like an officer in the army and you go in as a 21 year old, commanding troops, right? And you need to be that sort of author or authoritarian sort of individual. So what was that like? Like, were those jobs?
00:04:23
Speaker
Were they really difficult to actually do this sort of job and do it well at the beginning? Or were you sort of shadowing individuals to sort of bring you up through those initial years? I had quite a unique start. So I was working for Balfour Beatty, but we were a company called Mansell then. So there was different divisions when I first started Balfour Beatty where
00:04:43
Speaker
we were working like small works so this was our special works they called it which is like jobs from one million to five million it could be like a school extension, school refurb, you're in a hospital doing some refurbs or you're doing small small add-ons to buildings quite often or ground works and such so it was a really good
00:05:00
Speaker
kind of start to the career on getting stuck stuck in really. So all there would be on site would be me and a project manager or a senior site manager and you're kind of phoning the deep end and you have no choice but to do everything. So you know you don't have a design manager, you don't have a plan.
00:05:16
Speaker
The engineer will come once a week if you're lucky. You've got to beg and plead. Another job doesn't steal him off yet. So it was a kind of environment where you had no choice but to kind of get stuck in and get involved and deal with the subcontractors because they'll come to the office.
00:05:33
Speaker
if the other guy's not there or what have you, they're going to come and talk to you and they're going to ask you all the questions and ask you to sort it out. So I think as a way of understanding and actually kind of getting involved in all the different aspects of site management and construction management,
00:05:47
Speaker
It was a really interesting way to do that which is not always the same maybe what I get involved now on jobs that are like multi, multi-millions with huge like 30, 30, 40 people in the team and you have graduates now that are part of a section of works who maybe don't get as much exposure or it's not as easy to get exposure because you have to go and look for it rather than
00:06:08
Speaker
you just being no choice but being like dragged into it because you look around the room it's just you and then they're all there wanting something off you so that was what I think really helped to start my career on getting involved in everything because I had no choice but to step up.
00:06:28
Speaker
John, nice to meet you, mate. I was looking forward to, I was really looking forward to talk to you. And one of the things that you said before really jumped out, which was around like building respect. So when you started as a graduate, and I think if you think about like,
00:06:46
Speaker
So many people enter the construction industry and they've got this same problem, which is they don't have the same experience. They've got to build and earn respect of the people on the ground. I'm reflecting on my own experience. You spend a lot of time trying to find that right way to build respect.
00:07:03
Speaker
So I guess if you were to think about, you know, talking to your past self now, knowing now what you know now, or talking to another graduate, you know, what would you say are the techniques that work the best for you in terms of like cutting through and building respect with the people that were more experienced than you on the job?
Earning Respect in the Industry
00:07:23
Speaker
So I think it is, at the start, it's proving your worth and that you're actually useful, I think. So, because it's so easy to go in there and you think you should get respect because, you know, especially when you work for a bigger tier one company or something, people will sometimes assume that because you work for a big company, they should respect the missing, which unfortunately isn't always the case. Quite the opposite, isn't it?
00:07:45
Speaker
Well, obviously, yeah, because people get actually their back up, which is kind of righty-so to be honest, because you've got to respect the people you're dealing with that are often experts in their field. With a lot of the guys I find, and I think, yeah, if I was talking back to myself when I first started, is realizing that these guys are often experts in their field, maybe not always experts in the coordination or interfacing.
00:08:06
Speaker
of other trades, which is one of the main reasons, to be honest, we are here as a main contractor, is that we do that system integration. So, being the benefit to the people you're working with and the people that you're supposed to be managing and actually seeing a benefit of talking to you because you will solve the blockers or the issues, or you will coordinate with the other trades that they can't do because of where their set responsibilities and parameters are,
00:08:32
Speaker
or they just don't have their own expertise in that section and therefore they need your help. They see that there's a worth to speak to you and get involved with you and then see that your actions are backed up by, well, your words are backed up by your actions, a better way to say it, then that will gain respect. Where I think when I first started, there was a lot of I thought was, well, they should do because I'm the website manager, because I'm the management, which in reality is not the case at all.
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's super interesting because I think I had a similar learning experience where for me at the start to try and get respect was I'll just outwork everyone. So I'll do the 5.30 in the morning till 7.30 at night. I'll just be totally across everything I think I need to be across. And then as you go along, I found that I started resenting the people that didn't work as many hours. And that would create a lot of friction with me and some of the other team members.
00:09:30
Speaker
and like it definitely feels like the way to be successful as you go up you need to like exactly what you said make people successful so like see you as a way to solve their problems and yeah it's a I see a lot of people especially in that like junior role like do what I did and be like my path is to outwork people but like that has a has a big limit you only get so far that
00:09:57
Speaker
Jason, I think it helps being six foot six, too, trying to tear over people at those early days.
Career Progression and Demonstrating Capability
00:10:03
Speaker
It's a bit of a wild card. Like John said, I didn't have a hair on my face either, and I still don't. So. So, John, I'm going to sound like a really weird little fan boy now, but like if we look at your sort of career so far, it's not just impressive, but it's actually quite unique. So you've gone sort of grad site manager to project director.
00:10:27
Speaker
in a pretty short period of time, which is great. But you've also stayed at one company, which is actually quite unusual for like main contractor staff. They always jump and hop and that's the way that they jump up the tree. You've done that at one company, built your career and like network around you. So like it isn't typical, but how has that happened? Was that part of like your career strategy or is it like, yeah, how have you gone down that?
00:10:52
Speaker
So I think, yeah, I think there's two parts. Definitely, I've been fortunate to have the right opportunities. And I think for me, it was never like I want to be a project director. I think it's always been that I want to leave my own projects, and I always want to do something complex. And it's the little milestones of each step, like I want to be a site manager now, I want to get into senior site management, I want to become a project manager and work my way up on what is the next goal that I need to achieve that. And I think the
00:11:20
Speaker
What you've said is kind of true, right, is to get the next role, it's often easier to jump ship and get the next role because when you start in that role and people will take you on in that role and you may have not had to prove yourself per se as much as you would if you stayed with the company. And I think that's the one thing I had to learn quite early if I wanted to stay with Belfast was you don't get given the role until you've proven you can do the role.
00:11:47
Speaker
which can be quite frustrating, right, because you're always then doing more than maybe you're being paid to do, and you're often then doing more responsibilities and working more potentially than other people around you, which leads, like Jason said, to a bit of resentment if you're not careful, because why am I doing more when they're being paid the same, or even potentially more, right? Because often, again, when you go up in your career, the people that have been working longer have more experience,
00:12:14
Speaker
do our own more and potentially better benefits. That's just the way of the world. So I think I learned that quite quickly that there's no, I compare myself to the people I'm working with in that regard, it's just going to lead you to a resentment. So try to always try to avoid that. And it was very much given that 110%. So it was trying to always take that next step. So even if I was in a site manager role, I would try and do what I could and assist a project manager on taking some of that weight off them.
00:12:44
Speaker
And, you know, do even take some of their meetings, taking some of their design responsibilities, planning, what have you, is try and be a game leading to a benefit that the PM or whoever your line manager is, you are actually seen as a benefit and that you have the ability to actually take some of their work off them. Obviously that can go too far, right? Because you get the wrong line manager, they can obviously exploit that. So also it's been mindful not to be exploited on what you're doing.
00:13:10
Speaker
I've done quite a lot of distressed projects at Belfast BT, fortunate or not fortunate, which has allowed me to jump into positions and roles, which is probably above what I was on at the time, and it was then taking that opportunity, giving that 110%, and proving that I can achieve in that role.
00:13:31
Speaker
before actually giving that role. And then it's also then the kind of, not balls, but it is balls to be honest, it is then the balls actually speak up and make sure you get recognized for what you've done. Because again, it's so easy for, and not even intentionally I think from line of management, because they're busy with 110 other things, right? But it's to ensure that what you've done gets recognized, but also not in an arrogant way either, because that's also completely to put people off to and people think you're a bit of an upstart.
00:14:01
Speaker
I think, yeah, that in a very long-winded way is doing above your role and not expecting to be paid or recognised straight away for it until you've proven your worth.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah, John, that's so true. If I like to sort of cast a jump in, but like, John, the amount of, uh, like young engineers, uh, or project managers that, um, that I'll speak to who will say similar things like, uh, I'm doing this job a level above me or two levels above me. I've been like,
00:14:35
Speaker
promised a promotion three times or whatever and I haven't got it. And everyone that they're talking to, the common wisdom appears to be like the only way to get up is to sort of jump companies. Then they go and look elsewhere and then eventually that company offers them and they're in that kind of, you never feel great about that experience, no matter what the outcome is. Like you've looked elsewhere, you've had to let someone down. So, you know,
00:15:02
Speaker
Double clicking on what you were saying, does it require a couple of points along the way where you're like, you know you're doing that level up? Do you have to push a bit? Like if you were talking to a sort of younger engineer or younger project manager or site manager, you have to push a bit to get there?
00:15:20
Speaker
Yeah, you do, you do need to push, but you need to push with clear evidence that you have done it, because I think it's so easy to think you're doing it, but when you actually dissect what you've done, have you actually achieved it yet?
00:15:35
Speaker
Doing a role for like a month doesn't mean you're now able to do it full time and actually get the end goal. And I think even to get to the PD role I'm doing now, it was two years I was kind of doing that role arguably before I got it because it had to get to the point where the project ended and actually, yeah, okay, we did achieve what we set out to achieve because until then, although I'm doing the job, have I actually achieved, that job will actually get the end goal that the business needs.
00:16:03
Speaker
I think it's looking at is not just are you doing the well that's two grades or whatever above, but are you actually achieving the goals? He's doing it well. He's doing it well, you know. Yeah, but it's so easy because I've spoken to so many guys about that.
00:16:19
Speaker
that you know they will say exactly what you just said Jason I'm doing more I think I should be promoted you know and when you look and you go into it and go like what have you achieved to prove you've done it not that you're just doing the role and you're doing the day-to-day that is important you know it's got to be recognised that you're doing the day-to-day but every job well especially when you're in like projects where there is always milestones to achieve and you can achieve their milestones either well or poorly
00:16:46
Speaker
are you achieving the milestones well? And sometimes you've got to achieve it better than the peers that are in that role as well. Because if you can do it even better than the PMs or whatever, say you're a site manager going up to a PM role, an engineer going to a PM role, if you're doing it better than the people around you, or at least on par, then that really shows that you are achieving. And that's often what I've had to use as a way to do the pushing, rather than just saying, look, I've been doing it for three months.
00:17:11
Speaker
I do the day-to-day, yeah, I'm ready, rather than look what I've actually achieved, look what they've achieved. I'm either on the same way, or actually I'm doing better. That often is a better way to make people, because everyone's always got to get signed off by someone, right? So there needs to be clear evidence that that sign-off, you know, that is proof from what you can do. Nail on head, mate. Totally agree, Carlos. You had something to say.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, I was thinking it's like the old saying that people say is like dress for the job you want, not the job you have. With this it's like just do the job that you want and not the job that you have. It makes a lot of sense. Did you find there was a lot of competition? Like is everyone doing a similar strategy? Like within Balfour, for example, do you find that you're trying to do it at the same time that others are? Or did you find you were quite unique in that sense?
00:18:01
Speaker
I think at the start there's quite a few, but recent years I think it's quite unique. There isn't actually that many people that are similar age that I've met in recent years, for a majority of different reasons I guess, but I think in the early years definitely, when I was going for that site manager, senior site manager, kind of movement into project management, there was a lot of competition in that regard, which actually I think is really healthy.
00:18:26
Speaker
because it does push everyone to work more cleverly rather than just hard because you want to stand out and you want to prove your worth. So you then competing on doing that in different, more intuitive ways to do it. But when I've come into the PM, I think I did start project management quite early. I was like 28 when I kind of got into the project management. So everything
00:18:48
Speaker
I was working with were always older, so it was kind of a whole different dynamic where everyone I was kind of peers with were 10 years plus or I was also having people work for me that were old enough to be my dad and it's that whole kind of
00:19:05
Speaker
challenge that i then got into about how do you how do you manage people that yeah they are old enough to be your dad or you're dealing with peers because you're on a bigger project with other project managers and you are like you know 10 years junior and you're there trying to have the same opinion and same respect as they've got if that that that was a whole new world that was actually quite challenging to be honest
00:19:27
Speaker
So are you are you learning that by doing it? Are you learning that by reading? Do you have mentors that like help guide you to the like different strategies? Because, yeah, as you go through the different roles, each one has like a different skill set that you have to to sort of nail and not just you have to do well at to be good at the job. And sometimes it's the opposite of what you would have done three jobs before.
00:19:51
Speaker
Is it like are you avidly trying to like teach yourself? Are you just observing what works and doesn't work for other people? Or is there mentors? What's your strategy?
Learning Leadership and Management
00:20:02
Speaker
So I did have a mentor when I was moving again from like the site manager to project manager. He unfortunately left the business and we keep in contact but he's not a regular mentor that he once was and I think
00:20:14
Speaker
A lot of it has been, I have read a few books, a few management books, and they help a bit, right? They give you an idea to potentially implement for yourself. I think the key thing is you've got to learn your own way. Actually, I remember a project manager taught me that quite early in my career, is that there isn't a right way that I can just say, look, do it this way and it'll work. You've got to learn the way that suits you.
00:20:38
Speaker
your own behaviors, your own attitude, your own way of thinking, you've got to have your own then kind of leadership and management. And I think much of that is actually also to do with leadership and not just management is, I didn't think there was a distinction to be honest at the start of my career. And then when I got five into my career, there's a massive distinction between leadership and management.
00:20:59
Speaker
and the shadow you cast and what your actions do, actually how people perceive it and taking that into account. So I think that's been again a bigger thing is being technically strong and getting into the role of a more senior management. You can get there because you're technically advanced and you're an expert in your field, but maybe not so good at the management and leadership, but you've got there via that.
00:21:25
Speaker
That, I think, was quite telling the people I was meeting essentially that you could tell the difference from someone who got there just from their technical expertise, which is nothing wrong with that in any shape or form, but definitely makes it harder to move forward unless you start learning them soft skills and start learning the importance of leading the right way and how you operate and how that affects the people beneath you and how they operate.
00:21:49
Speaker
That is something that I had to learn myself and learn the best way that I could get the most out of people. And I found that because of the kind of age that I was going into them roles is that I need the lead from the front. It kind of like proved my worth to them. Again, it's going back to the thing I kind of said at the start, to be honest. I don't think that's changed, to be honest.
00:22:08
Speaker
the more I've gone up the ladder is that people have got to be willing to invest in you and you to invest in them. So I've often always thought that I will get my hands dirty. I will get involved in the day to day if I need to, to show that I can do it. One, but two is that I'm not scared to.
00:22:24
Speaker
And that has helped gain respect for some of the guys, especially when they have more experience of years or time served. The guy can talk the talk, but he can actually walk the walk as well. I think that has been the biggest learning for me, is if you can do that and you can get their buy-in and trust, then you're going to have a smashing team. If I can put that in a bottle and tell myself when I was 21 years old, that would be perfect.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Do you think, so you mentioned you hit project manager quite early and like a mentor was a good part of helping you transition from site manager to project manager. You're then like working with people that are 10 years older than you. Do you think it's like a really, is it a big boost that like, like people always say you're the average of the people around you. Do you think that's what accelerated you then? And then you're always working with older. So you always sort of catching them quicker than if you weren't working directly with them.
00:23:20
Speaker
I think so. I think, yeah, definitely there is a bit of that, Carlos. And I think, but what I think is what can you, I always thought a little bit as well as what you can add. And I think like even the time we've worked with you, with yourself, Carlos, is that, you know, the project management in construction and in just like the industry with it being rail or roads or highways, whatever your kind of discipline is, is technology is massively changing things. And
00:23:47
Speaker
Keeping on top of how that is integrated into how we do our role day in, day out is becoming quite a major thing, I think. And it is easier, I would say, on the whole for the younger generation because we've just been involved in technology a lot more than others have over our years because of the obvious reasons. It just wasn't there when they were younger. And it's looking not only as
00:24:14
Speaker
I'm not looking to be on the same par as themselves, just how they're doing it, but actually how I can do it. And that is, I'm quite strong, I tell a lot of the guys about that too, is don't try and emulate what they're doing because they've been brought up in a different kind of time, a different kind of culture. The culture has changed, better or worse. I'm sure I speak to myself, my older contractors may actually say that it's definitely got worse, but so we'll say it's got better.
00:24:42
Speaker
I think it's important to take of what even that person or myself has learned and what I think is important and actually what I can bring because of what I've gone through that is different, that's what they're doing and that actually I believe has helped quite a lot because there is initiatives that I've been working with a PD quite closely on the project I'm on at the moment.
00:25:02
Speaker
And we're learning quite a lot of each other because he's just turned 50. He's got a lot of experience that I just haven't had. But then also there's a lot of initiatives, a lot of ways that I operate in my project management style involving a lot of different technology, involving a lot of younger people that have this ability to
00:25:21
Speaker
to transfer from the different data that actually makes our day-to-day job easier. He's actually learning from that as well at the same time and then respecting that.
Technology's Role in Modern Construction
00:25:29
Speaker
He's like, you know what, I need to shape up a little bit on that because I could easily get left behind if I'm not careful.
00:25:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like you are, you're way more equipped, like in a lot of ways than like your typical, yeah, as you say, 50 year old PD who's gone through the ranks. Yeah, that's a positive, not a negative. And, and,
00:25:55
Speaker
Don't be wrong, it's not going to replace your technical ability. I think that is it. I've worked really hard to learn how to build. I've spent a lot of time out of hours learning about the technical build, and then also applying it at work as well, because unless you know what you're talking about, you can be as digitally minded as you want. If you can't actually build something properly, then you can't be- People can spell the word like, aren't they? Exactly. They're different than your own posture, right? You've got to know what you're talking about, but tying them two together,
00:26:25
Speaker
in the kind of more senior management role, that is a new thing in the industry. That isn't something that if you go back 15, 20 years ago, whatever, that wasn't about them. Just the technology wasn't advanced and we just weren't doing the things we are doing now that if you go back a few years ago, even just a few years, it just wasn't there yet. So I think there's a lot to play for moving into the near future that can put you above other people if you can register that, but not forget the basics as well.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I think if I was to take you back then to
00:27:00
Speaker
something you kind of touched on right at the start and something that reflects a decision I had to make when I was a young engineer. And let's imagine we're talking to a young project manager, site manager engineer. And they've got a couple of options of like the next job or a very early job to go to. And there's the choice of like a job that they know is going well versus the sort of distressed problem. People are saying it's hard graft here.
00:27:29
Speaker
What's the tip to which one to pick? So, for me personally, I've always gone with the hard graph because the most I've ever learned is of the jobs that are in an absolute abysmal state.
00:27:45
Speaker
And arguably I have built my career based on that, to be honest, because you just, when things go wrong is when you learn it. I know everyone says that, but it's true,
Choosing Projects for Growth
00:27:53
Speaker
it's true. When things aren't right and you have to then unpick it and then have to delve so much more into the detail to solve the issue, you therefore learn it. And if a job's going really well and you've got really good subcontractors or people working for you that are just owning their areas or responsibilities so well, then actually sometimes you may not learn.
00:28:14
Speaker
So I think if you get that opportunity, like you said, do go for the distress one, I'd recommend. But be mindful that, are you one even ready for it, you have the capacity for it? Because I think that's the other point to have is the last thing also is that if you haven't got the capacity or you don't feel ready for it, then take the other option because it can go the other way and you could get easily burnt out, stressed out and actually then
00:28:43
Speaker
kind of slowed down your career. Cause I have dealt with, you know, and I have worked with people where they thought they were ready. They've taken on the responsibility and haven't been able to cope. And I've met some really good guys where they just took the responsibility too early or they thought they could go and do that to a distressed job because they saw that as a quick way to rise up the ladder. They then got completely overwhelmed, got completely beaten down, burnt out. And then they're kind of like, they've kind of stopped.
00:29:11
Speaker
Yeah, and they've kind of been off by the whole thing, which is so sad to see when when someone's lost their kind of buzz because it is a hard job and
00:29:17
Speaker
You've got to love what you do to do construction because every day is difficult, every day is different. And if you lose your kind of fire and buzz to do that, then yeah, then you're developing the career, just going to end too. But yeah, I have like a love and I have a similar thought. I have a love for like those typical, the really hard and possibly distressed jobs, because there's like that saying of like, you know, people learn from their mistakes.
00:29:43
Speaker
But if you go to a difficult or distressed jobs, you're getting that like free kick. You're actually learning from other people's mistakes. You don't actually have to make them yourself. You can say, you know, like Bob did this three months ago and now the jobs like F'd. So you get to learn from other people's mistakes. But yeah, you do have to, you have to know what you're signing up for, for sure.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah, you don't want to go to the job and then turn it into the problems. My old boss always said go to small jobs and go to ones that aren't doing well because the small job means you actually see like the full cycle of everything. Like I grew up on like 500 million pound jobs where you see such like a tiny little part.
00:30:31
Speaker
to go to small ones, to go to tough ones because you actually learn sort of real world stuff. So that makes a lot of sense. I totally agree with that. I really do because it is hard though because sometimes you've got no choice but to work for the bigger things, bigger projects. And I think the advice I've given to some of the graduates that I've been working with closely in recent years is see if you can move around.
00:30:54
Speaker
because don't just go, it's like you said, if I'm in a job, you could be getting involved in the dry lining package, right? And maybe one other, and you've just spent five years in a dry lining. I always say to them, dude, you're gonna have to speak out because you just get pigeonholed and speak out and get asked to be moved about every six months, a year or what have you. So you do get to experience different parts of that one big project. Otherwise, like you said, yeah, you'll just see such a small section. But if you do a small job, you have the opportunity to see everything.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah, you said, John, you said something before about the difference between leadership and management. And like you earlier on, I didn't think that there was a lot of difference between them. But in this job, one of the things that we get to do is talk to lots and lots of projects every day.
Leadership vs. Management in Construction
00:31:40
Speaker
And when you talk to lots and lots of projects every day,
00:31:43
Speaker
you definitely see the difference on the project between a project that has great leadership running it versus ones that don't. And the people that you interact with all have their work into a common goal. Even if the job's high pressure, they might be stressed. They kind of know what their goal is and their purpose, and they're all helping each other towards it.
00:32:08
Speaker
Whereas the other jobs are, you know, people like second guessing the decision of management. There's that kind of that vibe. And you can you can smell it immediately when you're interacting with the project. So I totally agree. And like, you and I haven't worked together. But from what Carlos has said, you can definitely you've definitely got that like leadership base nailed down. So yeah, that's cool. Appreciate it.
00:32:34
Speaker
John, we're probably gonna have to wrap up then. But no, thank you very much for coming on today. That was really enjoyed that conversation. So thank you. Thank you guys. We appreciate being on. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Cheers. Hey, that was great. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I hope it was okay.
00:32:53
Speaker
No, big time. Yeah. Yeah. Most of our audience are like engineers. There'll be a lot of young engineers. And I think that's the kind of story that they'll listen to and like, yeah, resonate with pretty hard. And yeah, I want to follow. So no, that was really awesome. Thank you. I think that other perspective on the on like the difficult jobs was really interesting because like my normal advice is like immediately just go the hardest job possible. But you're like, you're right. You have to know what you're signing up for. Otherwise you
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, I've just seen it too many times, where they think they're ready. Because it will help your career progression, doing the hard jobs and proving it right, because you become the golden child that can do the tough stuff. But then I've seen it also where people have been written off because they've just done it too quickly and shown that actually they're not capable potentially yet.
00:33:43
Speaker
And you can't turn around a construction project quick, right? So it's going to grind you down for months or even years before you actually, like, get something out of there. Oh, yeah. The last one, David, was two years of just sheer hell. That was it, yeah. I was going to ask you a question, which I didn't get to around, like, I think when I was studying civil engineering, there was like 800 people in my course.
Adapting to Chaos and Unpredictability in Construction
00:34:05
Speaker
And then of those that graduated, you know, maybe 200 of them went into, like, construction.
00:34:12
Speaker
you know, three years in, there's probably like 50 of them, you know, seven years in, there's probably like 20 of them. Like there is that kind of like, yeah, whether it's tough jobs that burn people out or give people that like wobble, like, is this the right industry for me?
00:34:29
Speaker
I was interested to ask whether you had ever had that wobble of like, is this the right thing? Yeah, I don't think I have to be honest. I think I do enjoy it too much.
00:34:43
Speaker
That's good. That's awesome. I had this conversation with a friend a long ago explaining what we were doing and explaining all the legal stuff that was going on as well as having to build a job. He just said, it just sounds like chaos. I said, it is chaos. It is just madness. Why do you want to do that? You get paid a lot in this industry, you do.
00:35:03
Speaker
It is one that you just don't know what's going to happen next. And this guy was all about, he was an accountant, right? So he was just like, why would you even, why would you do that to yourself? Like, I get up at eight and get to work for nine and punch some numbers of the day and then go for a run at lunchtime and stuff. And I'm like, I don't even have a lunchtime. Like, what the fuck is going to end? Like, what are you doing? So, but I think it is that every day is different and it's just not boring. Like, you just can't, like, there's always a challenge.
00:35:32
Speaker
It's impossible, I think as well, to like, to do everything. I had this chat with one of the guys recently is that he was getting so stressed out that he just wasn't, like, he always liked to have a to-do list and always wanted to try and achieve it. And I was like, mate, if you achieve 20% of that to-do list, you've done well. And he's like, how's the program? Yeah, I was like, how's the failure? And I was like, no, no, no. That's 20% PVC. I was like, you've actually achieved something today.
00:36:00
Speaker
If you've not even looked at your list, then you've got a fucking issue. But if you're only achieving a bit, that's even a start because this isn't an industry where you have a plan and you achieve what you guys, as you guys know, you set a plan, 100% of that plan will not be the same at the end. So don't even think that you're ever going to achieve that. It just doesn't happen.
00:36:18
Speaker
I was a graduate engineer working on a remote project in Australia and I came into work one morning and the project director was like, hey, you're getting on a flight shortly, like a private chartered flight. We're going to fly you to the capital city. You're going to get a car to this lawyer's office and you're going to spend five hours there writing an affidavit for some
00:36:40
Speaker
we're having a disagreement with one of our subcontractors. And then you're going to fly back tonight. I was like, that wasn't what I was expecting today.
00:36:53
Speaker
Exactly. In some ways, where else do you get that? And that's what I mean. And you meet such a variety of people. I do love, literally, one minute speaking with a bricklayer who's basically telling me to fuck off because he's not going to do what I've asked him to do and literally having to have a full-up, nearly a fight with him to get him to do it. And next minute, I'm meeting an architect who is like the poshest guy I've ever met on this side of the world and told me about how he went and did polo on the weekend.
00:37:18
Speaker
I don't know how many of them judge me, but you can tag one or two people on the same day. Right, and it is kind of what I do like that. And you have to be in a bridge between them. You have to tell the architect, like, this guy ain't going to do that thing. And then you have to tell the replay, it's because this line looks beautiful that comes round here. He's like there saying, I bet it's some posh Twatties floor there, so he hasn't got to come out and do it. Yes, it is. Excuse me. We have to build it.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, I'll check your message a bit later on. Thank you very much. Thank you.