Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
10 Sophie Flynn | Psychological Thriller Author
248 Plays4 years ago
Pyschological thriller author, Sophie Flynn joins us this week to share her experience of going directly to a publisher through Simon and Schuster's Digital Originals program, her troubles in finding an agent even after she had a book deal and the inspirations behind her novel, All My Lies. We also discuss her work as Head of Marketing for Jericho Writers.
Signing up to the Patreon will give you access to the Discord server, where you'll be able to interact directly with Jamie as well as many of the previous agents, authors and editors who have been on the show. You'll also be able to see who the upcoming guests are and put forward questions for Jamie to ask them.
Get a whole month with WriteMentor's Hub for free using the coupon code 'Write&Wrong'.
The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
Jamie, Melissa and Noami talk about the best and the worst writing tropes!
Click here to find all of our guests' books as well as the desert island library over at bookshop.org.
Click on this referral link to get 30% off your first three months with Zencastr.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Right and Wrong Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:02
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:03
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:06
Speaker
What does it say?
00:00:06
Speaker
I thought it would be a good... I didn't even get the idea.
00:00:12
Speaker
Maybe I can just ask you the question.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going well.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going really well.
Guest Introduction: Author Sophie Flynn
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm Emma.
00:00:26
Speaker
And I'm Jamie and today we are joined by Sophie Flynn, whose debut novel All My Lies is out in April this year.
00:00:34
Speaker
Sophie is also the head of marketing at Jericho Writers.
00:00:38
Speaker
Welcome Sophie, great to have you.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello, thank you for having me.
00:00:42
Speaker
Jamie, you sounded like you were really confused about what your name was then.
00:00:48
Speaker
And I'm Ron Burgundy?
00:00:49
Speaker
Yes.
00:00:51
Speaker
You were like, is I'm Jamie?
00:00:53
Speaker
What is going on?
00:00:54
Speaker
Just one of those days.
00:00:55
Speaker
Exactly.
00:00:57
Speaker
Hi, Sophie.
00:00:58
Speaker
Thank you so much for being on the show.
00:01:01
Speaker
It's great to have you.
00:01:03
Speaker
I think, first of all, we just wanted to kick off and say, I think obviously some of our listeners...
Entering the Writing Industry
00:01:10
Speaker
They'll be sitting on a story or maybe feeling a bit overcome by their preconceptions of how to get into the industry.
00:01:17
Speaker
And often it feels like there's a restrictive path and a certain amount of hoops that you have to jump through on the way to get there.
00:01:28
Speaker
However, you took a very different path.
00:01:30
Speaker
And we were wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that and how it all began for you.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, of course.
00:01:37
Speaker
First thing I say is if you are listening to this podcast, you are already further ahead of where I was when I started because I literally have no understanding of the world of writing.
00:01:49
Speaker
I didn't know anyone who was a writer.
00:01:51
Speaker
It didn't occur to me that that was someone's job or that it was something you can kind of seek out and find out through things like podcasts.
00:01:59
Speaker
So I totally get that it does feel like a kind of a hidden world.
00:02:03
Speaker
I mean, I did an MA and I know a lot of people kind of don't like that route because it kind of does feed into that as well.
00:02:10
Speaker
You have to kind of know certain people.
00:02:13
Speaker
I did an MA because I literally didn't understand how else anyone ever got into writing.
00:02:17
Speaker
It kind of felt like the only route that I knew that someone could structure for me and I would meet other writers.
00:02:23
Speaker
So I loved my MA and I do think it's one route in, but I don't think it's definitely not the only route in.
00:02:31
Speaker
And I kind of did it alongside a full-time job and funded it through a student loan.
00:02:38
Speaker
So it wasn't a case of kind of just going straight from a BA to an MA and not really doing anything in between.
00:02:44
Speaker
There was definitely a few twists and turns before I even started it.
00:02:48
Speaker
It's kind of been quite a long route in, although compared to some people, some people I meet and they say, oh, I was doing it 20 years before I got
Submitting to Publishers: The Open Submission Experience
00:02:55
Speaker
my publishing deal.
00:02:55
Speaker
So I probably shouldn't say it's a long route because I think for me it was maybe four or five years.
00:03:01
Speaker
from when I started writing to getting the offer, which feels like a long time, but I realized isn't actually that long in hindsight.
00:03:08
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, the way I ended up with my deal was actually through an open submission window at Simon & Schuster.
00:03:14
Speaker
And I went in initially without an agent.
00:03:17
Speaker
I got an agent after.
00:03:19
Speaker
And that just felt like a more accessible route to me because I'd kind of gone through rounds of submissions with agents and just wasn't really getting anywhere.
00:03:28
Speaker
I saw the opportunity on Twitter.
00:03:30
Speaker
and just sent off my manuscript.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, I think Twitter is really great if people are looking for opportunities.
00:03:37
Speaker
It's kind of like this.
00:03:38
Speaker
People on Twitter are so helpful and you'll see so much posted on there that you wouldn't otherwise know about.
00:03:45
Speaker
So I would really recommend that for people looking for a route in that is free.
00:03:49
Speaker
You don't need to kind of know people to be welcomed into the writing community on Twitter, which I think is really nice.
00:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, there's definitely a really friendly big community on Twitter waiting with open arms to accept new writers.
00:04:04
Speaker
Is that when you entered the open submission window for Simon & Schuster, is that something that you had done before?
00:04:11
Speaker
Entered those kinds of competitions for different companies, I think, or is that something that you just thought, I'm just going to go for it and try this?
00:04:19
Speaker
It was the first kind of direct publisher route I tried.
00:04:23
Speaker
I had entered a lot of competitions before, like first novel prizes, which I, the Curtis Brown first novel prize I entered and was kind of one of those other points kind of before the Simon & Schuster thing where I thought I might be getting somewhere.
00:04:45
Speaker
And that ended up, I actually didn't get long listed for that competition.
00:04:48
Speaker
and kind of thought, oh, it's just another one I haven't got.
00:04:51
Speaker
But it did end up a few, I think maybe a few weeks after the long list was announced, an agent from Curtis Brown got in contact with me anyway after me submitting through the competition and asked to write for my manuscript, which at the time I actually didn't have.
00:05:07
Speaker
And instead of being a logical person,
00:05:09
Speaker
and saying sure I can send it to you in a few months I was like sure I'll send it to you this weekend um which is honestly such a bad idea um but I did send it then they eventually rejected it but they gave me the best advice they basically went through they were the first people to read my whole book um which is not the way to talk to an agent that was I mean I don't know I say that and I'm like you shouldn't like
00:05:37
Speaker
in hindsight, it wasn't the right time to send it to them.
00:05:40
Speaker
But also it meant I got editorial feedback from one of the best agents in the UK before anyone else saw it.
00:05:48
Speaker
So all the submissions I made were with that in mind.
00:05:53
Speaker
It's a definite bright side.
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:54
Speaker
So I kind of never thought of it as, I mean, I was a bit gutted at the start, but I don't think I'd be where I am now without having had that opportunity to do it in the first place.
00:06:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely great.
00:06:06
Speaker
I mean, in terms of social media presence, you were saying that it's really good to connect on Twitter.
00:06:13
Speaker
Do you think that it is good for writers or would-be writers to have a big social media presence or...
00:06:22
Speaker
something on Twitter, maybe Instagram.
00:06:24
Speaker
I mean, I know that a lot of people are from the writing world that are on Twitter.
00:06:29
Speaker
And obviously that's been really important to you.
00:06:32
Speaker
Did you start off just kind of following who you liked or how did you get into finding that world?
Networking Through Twitter
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of writers feel really overwhelmed when they hear people saying, oh, you've got to have a presence on social media.
00:06:44
Speaker
And I think what I would always say is it's not about having a presence for yourself and being like, I'm a writer, this is me.
00:06:52
Speaker
it's using it to talk to other writers and I think that's where people slip up because they join and then they start promoting themselves and they don't think of it as a way to connect to a community and I think that's why people sometimes get a bit like oh I don't know what to post I don't have anything to talk about and actually if you just go on and use it as a way to talk to people who are interested in the same things as you I find that that's why people end up liking it I never think of it as like
00:07:18
Speaker
I mean, obviously I'm in marketing, so I'm aware of it being a marketing tool, but I don't think of it as like, I'm going to go on and promote my book.
00:07:26
Speaker
Right.
00:07:26
Speaker
So you're using it as a means to connect with the community that is writers.
00:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, massively.
00:07:32
Speaker
And I think I've been on it for years.
00:07:34
Speaker
So a lot of what I really like about it now, and I think from the outside, I think it can often look like people who kind of announce publishing deals and announce agents.
00:07:43
Speaker
You see in the comments and it's all other authors who comment on it and you think,
00:07:48
Speaker
Like I remember looking at people and being like, well, of course they've got a publishing deal because they know all of these authors.
00:07:54
Speaker
And actually now I'm on the other side of it.
00:07:55
Speaker
I'm like, that, that happened to me, but I know a lot of these authors because I've been talking to them for years, often before they were published as well.
00:08:02
Speaker
It can look kind of like everyone already knows each other, but that's,
00:08:05
Speaker
only you only know each other because you've been kind of chatting about trying to get published with those same people the whole time yeah yeah it's good to have like a support system i guess yeah i mean that's what's really nice about like our daily group this year i think like being in lockdown i mean it might be the same every year but i mean we've got a really supportive group of really chatty people and literally everything that happens to us we've got a facebook group and a twitter kind of um
00:08:32
Speaker
the end going and every time like a big thing happens everyone shares it they share all the opportunities and it's just a really nice community you don't feel like there's no sense of competition
00:08:41
Speaker
that you've all got books out at the same time, everyone really just supports each other.
00:08:44
Speaker
Sure.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:46
Speaker
Do you feel, I mean, I imagine is there a shared feeling amongst the debut authors of this year and within that group that you guys are missing out on what would be the kind of traditional release of a book?
00:09:03
Speaker
It'll be so different from what would normally be the sort of processes that you would go with like live events and things.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, massively.
00:09:12
Speaker
Mine's a digital release, so I don't have quite the same kind of angst about, oh, I won't see it in a bookshop, because that wasn't going to be the route I was going down anyway.
00:09:21
Speaker
But I've never met my agent, I've never met my editor, and that's quite weird.
00:09:27
Speaker
Yeah, that does sound odd.
00:09:29
Speaker
It's quite strange.
00:09:30
Speaker
So it's all email correspondence and presumably Zoom meetings?
00:09:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean...
00:09:37
Speaker
I might, to be honest, it's still mostly email.
00:09:40
Speaker
Like I've done a few Zooms with my editor right at the start of when I signed.
00:09:44
Speaker
But I mean, generally, it is all just on email, which concerns like, I think there is the danger of that sometimes making it feel a little bit unreal, like nothing's happening.
00:09:55
Speaker
Because I suppose in a normal year, there would be kind of events to go to and people to go out and see and it would all feel a little bit more like it was actually happening.
00:10:03
Speaker
as opposed to you kind of like sitting at home, getting the odd email every now and again and going, oh, I do have a book coming
Traditional vs Digital Publishing
00:10:12
Speaker
out.
00:10:12
Speaker
If it was a traditional year, would you still be releasing digitally only, digital only, or would you be doing a more sort of traditional release?
00:10:22
Speaker
So the program that I submitted to is digital.
00:10:26
Speaker
I mean, it's digital first in that, but there's no guarantee of a paperback.
00:10:31
Speaker
So it's slightly different to like a model like the Couture where it's digital first, but they do print on demand.
00:10:36
Speaker
Simultures actually don't do print on demand.
00:10:40
Speaker
They buy all the rights to audio and paperback and kind of, I'm pretty sure it says like eventually they hope to publish you in all those formats, but they concentrate on the,
00:10:52
Speaker
digitally and I mean that that's something I think it's been interesting because a lot of the debuts that I'm in the group with they are kind of a traditional um paperback or hardback group and I mean when you think about getting published that's the dream isn't it to see a book in a bookshop so there's definitely been some like yeah yeah like trying to get my head around like whether digital's right for me
00:11:18
Speaker
And I think it is at the point I'm in.
00:11:21
Speaker
I would love one day to have the kind of, oh, there's my book in a bookshop.
00:11:27
Speaker
But at the end of the day, I want my book to be out and for people to read it.
00:11:30
Speaker
And the readers I have do read massively in digital format.
00:11:34
Speaker
So you kind of weigh up what works for you, I think.
00:11:38
Speaker
But I think I definitely was not aware of digital publishing routes before I got into this at all.
00:11:44
Speaker
It just hadn't really occurred to me that that was the whole other route.
00:11:47
Speaker
And I think people dismiss that.
00:11:49
Speaker
And it is really important.
00:11:50
Speaker
I mean, some of the figures from other digital authors, the amount they're selling is crazy.
00:11:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:56
Speaker
But I think it still looks like a second best option.
00:12:00
Speaker
Sure.
00:12:00
Speaker
But you knew you were doing this as you went into it, right?
00:12:05
Speaker
What was it that made you pull the trigger on this specific opening?
00:12:11
Speaker
so the program that I submitted to um is called digital originals so I was aware that that was the case when I submitted my manuscript um that it would be digital only and I wow digital first digital only I when I saw the tweet obviously I was working it I just joined Jericho Writers um when I saw it and I remember I sent the tweet in our kind of team chat and I was like this sounds a good idea and we've got novelists on the staff and they were like
00:12:38
Speaker
yeah i think it's good and harry who harry bingham who's the owner of jericho writers he's really really into digital publishing as well so he got he was like yeah go for it and kind of gave me also i had a lot of i was lucky because obviously i have people who i work with who know more about the publishing industry than i did who could tell me whether they thought it was a good idea or not um
00:13:01
Speaker
So I went into it probably more clued up than some people would have.
00:13:05
Speaker
So when did you start at Jericho Writers?
00:13:10
Speaker
March last year.
00:13:11
Speaker
So just two weeks before lockdown.
00:13:13
Speaker
Oh, OK.
00:13:14
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:13:15
Speaker
So you haven't been to the office much?
00:13:16
Speaker
No.
00:13:17
Speaker
And it's funny because our office is in Oxford and I live in the Cotswolds.
00:13:21
Speaker
And one of the big things for me, I was like, oh, it's such a long journey.
00:13:25
Speaker
I was quite worried about kind of making the journey and almost didn't take the job because it's like a three hour round commute on the train.
00:13:32
Speaker
Um, but I did.
00:13:35
Speaker
And then obviously ended up never going in anyway.
00:13:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:37
Speaker
Well, that kind of worked out in a way.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, although I miss the office.
00:13:42
Speaker
I love our office in Oxford.
00:13:43
Speaker
It's really lovely and it's nice to see people and be part of something.
00:13:47
Speaker
It isn't quite the same in my house, but there you go.
00:13:50
Speaker
And did you, actually, just for our listeners, in case they are not fully aware of what Jericho offers and the services that you provide, do you want to just give us a quick rundown of what Jericho Writers is and does?
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, of course.
00:14:05
Speaker
So we are a writing services company who provides
00:14:09
Speaker
basically anything you might need to kind of write, edit and get your book published.
00:14:14
Speaker
That's split between traditional publishing and self-publishing.
00:14:17
Speaker
We basically provide editorial services, events, mentorship, everything.
00:14:24
Speaker
But basically anything a novelist might want to do that will help them kind of navigate.
00:14:30
Speaker
I mean, I say publishing.
00:14:32
Speaker
We have traditionally been quite focused on helping people get published, but actually we're trying to move into
00:14:36
Speaker
more of a what do you want as a writer because not all writers have the end goal of being published and there's a lot of other things you can do so just kind of help people achieve whatever they want from their writing
00:14:48
Speaker
And did you, obviously it's quite a recent job for you.
00:14:52
Speaker
Did you, were you previously working in a publishing orientated space or did you choose this job at Jericho because you as a writer thought, I want to be more involved in the publishing industry and I want to meet people and work with people that can help and connect with me on that journey?
Challenges in Securing an Agent
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's my first job kind of in
00:15:14
Speaker
anything to do with publishing.
00:15:15
Speaker
I was, when I applied for it, I was working as a marketing manager in a cybersecurity company.
00:15:21
Speaker
Okay.
00:15:22
Speaker
That's quite a change.
00:15:24
Speaker
It's quite a change.
00:15:25
Speaker
I mean, it was, it was cybersecurity software for teenagers.
00:15:29
Speaker
So teaching them cybersecurity.
00:15:31
Speaker
And I honestly had no interest or idea about cybersecurity.
00:15:35
Speaker
So I was like, imagine if I could work on marketing campaigns for something I actually understand.
00:15:40
Speaker
So yeah, it was a very good move.
00:15:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:45
Speaker
That's brilliant.
00:15:46
Speaker
That is so good.
00:15:47
Speaker
And I guess circling back to, you know, obviously you did your submission for the competition and that went really well.
00:15:55
Speaker
In terms of getting an agent, you said it obviously came after that.
00:16:00
Speaker
How was that process for you?
00:16:02
Speaker
How did you find all of that?
00:16:04
Speaker
Submitting to agents was honestly not that pleasant.
00:16:10
Speaker
It was just, it's quite difficult.
00:16:12
Speaker
It's just...
00:16:14
Speaker
I had a lot of kind of early luck with people requesting full manuscript and getting some like really positive thoughts and then just periods of not hearing anything or just getting a lot of form requests.
00:16:27
Speaker
And
00:16:29
Speaker
I think just before I was offered the deal with Simon & Schuster, I got four full manuscript requests in one day.
00:16:36
Speaker
Oh, that's encouraging.
00:16:36
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:16:37
Speaker
But yeah, it was really encouraging.
00:16:39
Speaker
But they were probably, I think I'd had maybe six before that, or either not been responded to, or it turned out to be no.
00:16:47
Speaker
So I thought, this has got to be the round, like four in one day must mean something.
00:16:53
Speaker
And while I was waiting for them to come back, I submitted to Simon & Schuster, and then
00:16:57
Speaker
they gradually started trickling in with no, or like really just bad luck.
00:17:03
Speaker
Like someone was like, I've actually just gone on maternity, so I can't even consider this anymore.
00:17:08
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, what are the chances?
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, I was like, oh, this is heartbreaking.
00:17:13
Speaker
So I think I was waiting on a few still when I got the offer through.
00:17:18
Speaker
And I emailed them all and said, look, I've had this book deal offer now.
00:17:21
Speaker
I still want an agent.
00:17:23
Speaker
And again, I still didn't hear back from one of them.
00:17:25
Speaker
And I still have never heard back from her now.
00:17:28
Speaker
So I'm assuming it's a no.
00:17:30
Speaker
But I kind of just thought, oh, this is silly.
00:17:33
Speaker
Like I've got what I want, which is a book deal.
00:17:35
Speaker
I shouldn't hang around and wait for an agent because I was getting just a bit fed up of not getting replies.
00:17:41
Speaker
So I kind of gave up the search and just thought I can sign this book deal without an agent.
00:17:48
Speaker
But then I kind of started going through that process.
00:17:51
Speaker
To be honest, I did not enjoy it without an agent.
00:17:53
Speaker
I personally wouldn't recommend it.
00:17:57
Speaker
just because it's quite stressful and like I'm in a good position in that I was sending my contract to Harry who's been published for 20 years and he was going through it and telling me line by line what it meant.
00:18:08
Speaker
Right, so you had good advisors which is fortunate.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah, but I still found it like I just wanted someone to do it for me.
00:18:16
Speaker
I just didn't want to be involved in it.
00:18:18
Speaker
I just found it really stressful.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:21
Speaker
But I had sent off an application for Kate Nash Agency
00:18:25
Speaker
as part of their mentorship program a few, I think maybe a few weeks or months before I had the offer.
00:18:31
Speaker
And I, to be honest, I'd actually forgotten that I sent the application off.
00:18:34
Speaker
And I thought, oh, I should probably just tell them that I can't apply anymore because I've got a book deal.
00:18:40
Speaker
So I just sent off this really quick email saying, like, oh, I need to pull out from the program.
00:18:44
Speaker
I've got a book deal.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I got an email straight back saying, like, are you still looking for representation?
00:18:50
Speaker
But because this has happened to me so many times, I've
00:18:53
Speaker
It's like, oh, it's still not going to happen.
00:18:55
Speaker
So I was just like, yeah, in an ideal world, but I then just thought nothing of it.
00:18:59
Speaker
And within about, I think maybe three days, I'd ended up signing with Kate, who's my agent now.
00:19:05
Speaker
So from it taking forever to turning around in three days was shocking to me.
00:19:10
Speaker
Wow.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:11
Speaker
I mean, it's so interesting that you actually had a book deal, like it was signed, it's going to be published.
00:19:19
Speaker
And then you were searching for an agent.
00:19:20
Speaker
And even then it was difficult for you to land one and even get that interest.
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:27
Speaker
And I mean, that, that, it really, I think I did dent my confidence, but it's not that I'm not the only person I know that that's happened to.
00:19:35
Speaker
And I think that like,
00:19:37
Speaker
A lot of my friends at work who are traditionally published with agents, they're like, oh, you'll find it really easy to get an agent now because you've got a book deal.
00:19:46
Speaker
But in the meantime, I was talking to other people who don't have an agent with a book deal and they were like, oh, I don't know if you will.
00:19:51
Speaker
And I still didn't find it easy and that did make me think maybe it's just not good enough.
00:19:56
Speaker
And this was despite having, my husband was like, you know, literally you've got a book deal offer since I was used to.
00:20:01
Speaker
How can you still think it's not good enough?
00:20:03
Speaker
And I was like, I don't know.
00:20:04
Speaker
There is this weird thing about like you just want an agent to stamp their approval and say, yep, I'm in.
Sophie's Writing Process
00:20:11
Speaker
And I don't know why we do that so much.
00:20:13
Speaker
It doesn't really make sense.
00:20:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:15
Speaker
And I guess it's just how the industry has been run for such a long time.
00:20:19
Speaker
And it's so hard to reach publishers without agents nowadays that it's almost like a default reaction to say, oh, you need an agent.
00:20:28
Speaker
And agents are now editors as well.
00:20:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:31
Speaker
Definitely.
00:20:32
Speaker
I think it's like the, what we were chatting about at the beginning with the hoops that you feel like you've got to jump through that, um, a continuous, but actually there is different ways to do things.
00:20:42
Speaker
So it's not just, you know, this one linear way.
00:20:46
Speaker
And the more we speak to people, we realize that people are getting into what they love to do from so many different avenues.
00:20:53
Speaker
Um, and in regards to that, I feel like, um,
00:20:57
Speaker
you know, just going back to your story and obviously the story that's going to be published, All My Lies in April, like how do you find, how did you find coming to that story?
00:21:08
Speaker
Was it something that you, a story you always wanted to tell?
00:21:11
Speaker
Like how was your writing process and what's your style of writing?
00:21:15
Speaker
Chaotic.
00:21:16
Speaker
So, I mean, I should probably not tell this story, but I,
00:21:22
Speaker
So like I was saying earlier, I just didn't really know how to start when I wanted to.
00:21:26
Speaker
I knew I wanted to write, but I just didn't know how people did that.
00:21:30
Speaker
And one of the first things I did was, this makes me sound like I'm from the kind of long ago era, but I looked in my local paper and I saw that there was a creative writing, like day class advertising.
00:21:44
Speaker
I was like, oh, I'll do that.
00:21:46
Speaker
That's like a step.
00:21:46
Speaker
That's something I can do.
00:21:48
Speaker
So I turned up and it was a local author.
00:21:52
Speaker
in a very typical, absolutely beautiful cotsold house with lots of quite well-to-do ladies who were writing.
00:22:01
Speaker
And it was just this workshop.
00:22:04
Speaker
But I kind of went to it and I did not have a novel idea at all.
00:22:08
Speaker
And everyone else there was already writing a novel.
00:22:11
Speaker
And the tutor assumed that I was also midway writing a novel.
00:22:17
Speaker
And instead of me being like, oh, I'm not yet, I just made an idea on the spot.
00:22:23
Speaker
which was just, I was like, I think she says, think about like, start with a question.
00:22:27
Speaker
And the first thing that came into my mind was like, what would you do if you were, your first love came back into your life, but you were already married.
00:22:37
Speaker
And that's kind of the premise that I started with.
00:22:40
Speaker
So that spontaneous on the spot idea is now what has become.
00:22:45
Speaker
That's great.
00:22:46
Speaker
I love this.
00:22:47
Speaker
I love that.
00:22:48
Speaker
So good.
00:22:53
Speaker
that is so good that's brilliant I love it I love it and then it went through I mean like my my mum always says I can't believe you're getting your first book published so many people don't get their first idea published I'm like really my first idea though because like the central idea has stayed the same but I mean my first draft the story was totally different it had all the same characters all the same themes but
00:23:18
Speaker
story wasn't the same.
00:23:20
Speaker
I think the story has probably had forged completely different plots.
00:23:24
Speaker
So while it is the same book, it's been through a lot of different versions because the first draft made no sense whatsoever.
00:23:34
Speaker
That's fair.
00:23:35
Speaker
I think people go through different drafts, don't they?
00:23:38
Speaker
So how long have you been working on this one book and have you written other books?
00:23:44
Speaker
So I think
00:23:49
Speaker
I think it took me four years from start to finish to have a draft that I was happy with.
00:23:54
Speaker
But in that time, to be honest, I wasn't writing a lot of the time.
00:23:59
Speaker
I was, because I did my MA, which was part time over two years.
00:24:04
Speaker
And we had to submit like chunks of the book.
00:24:07
Speaker
So I basically finished the MA with like 30,000 words that have been done through the MA that were quite polished because you have to submit them.
00:24:15
Speaker
But I then didn't have,
00:24:16
Speaker
the rest of the book.
00:24:17
Speaker
So I'd been working on it for, I mean, it must've been, this doesn't make sense.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:23
Speaker
I'm sorry.
00:24:23
Speaker
I'm not very good at timeline.
00:24:25
Speaker
So it must've been two years to get 30,000 words down.
00:24:28
Speaker
And then I did the last 50,000 words during Nano.
00:24:33
Speaker
Oh, interesting.
00:24:34
Speaker
So I did it in a very weird way.
00:24:35
Speaker
Right.
00:24:36
Speaker
So it was kind of a weird book because 30,000 words, which highly polished over two years and 50,000 words written over a month.
00:24:44
Speaker
That must have been a little bit strange, but you've managed to seamlessly blend those together despite the difference.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was a good year after having the first draft down that I was able to fix it, to be honest.
00:24:59
Speaker
I found the first draft getting into shape was the worst part.
00:25:03
Speaker
I found it so hard.
00:25:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:06
Speaker
And have you written anything else or has it just been this one labour of love, as it were?
00:25:12
Speaker
So I've written my second book.
00:25:15
Speaker
I wrote that during the first lockdown.
00:25:18
Speaker
I mean, the first draft of it.
00:25:19
Speaker
I did that one quite quickly because I was like, I'm not spending another four years writing a draft.
00:25:24
Speaker
So I think I did it in probably six months.
00:25:28
Speaker
And I'm in the process now of rewriting it, which I was hoping I would do it all last year, but it did not happen.
00:25:37
Speaker
Right.
00:25:38
Speaker
Okay.
00:25:38
Speaker
So this is what I'm noticing is that your style, how you approach to writing a book is you just write the whole thing and then you sit down and say, now how am I going to rewrite this whole thing?
00:25:47
Speaker
That's exactly what I do.
00:25:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:50
Speaker
That's an interesting approach.
00:25:53
Speaker
It's an interesting way of structuring how you compose the book.
00:25:55
Speaker
Because I've seen lots of interviews with famous and successful authors where they say things like, I think Neil Gaiman says things like, the second draft is just you trying to prove that you knew what you were doing with the first draft.
00:26:09
Speaker
And the first draft of your book is just the plan of your book, if you're not a planner.
00:26:15
Speaker
And then you write your book based off your first draft.
00:26:17
Speaker
Do you know what the worst thing is though?
00:26:19
Speaker
It definitely translates.
00:26:20
Speaker
Like I am actually a planner.
00:26:22
Speaker
This is what I just cannot like work out in my head.
00:26:25
Speaker
I do plan.
00:26:26
Speaker
Not my first one so much.
00:26:27
Speaker
My second one, I was like, I'm going to do a meticulous plan because I want my first draft to not be a total mess.
00:26:33
Speaker
And even though I planned, I feel like I can't understand what I'm trying to write until I've written something.
00:26:40
Speaker
90,000 words of it already, which is such an ineffective process, but I don't know how else to do it.
00:26:46
Speaker
Well, I mean, if it gets you there in the end, that's all that matters.
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:50
Speaker
In regards to support, I mean, I was going to say sport systems, but that hasn't got anything to do with writing.
00:27:01
Speaker
In regards to support systems, do you take advantage of, you know, writing groups?
00:27:06
Speaker
Obviously, you're part of, you know, you work for Jericho, which advocates, you know, support systems for writers, etc.
00:27:14
Speaker
But do you take part in any sort of, you know, groups that have helped you with this book or your new book?
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think I am really lucky because I do have so many different writing groups.
00:27:29
Speaker
I mean, I can't remember what year it was, but a few years ago, I applied for a funded place at a summer school called Swanwick Summer School for Writers, which is a really, really great program to encourage more younger people to attend their residential summer school.
00:27:45
Speaker
I think you have to be between 18 and 30.
00:27:47
Speaker
So I applied for that.
00:27:50
Speaker
I think usually it's about 600 pounds and it's, they do a place for about a hundred pounds if you're in that age bracket, um, and do applications and stuff.
00:27:59
Speaker
So I got a place on that and I thought, Oh, this is going to be really weird.
00:28:02
Speaker
And I met three other people on that, um, Janelle, Verity and Pearl who are now like some of my best friends.
00:28:08
Speaker
And we all started on that program together.
00:28:12
Speaker
And I think it's been like three or four years since then.
00:28:17
Speaker
Um,
00:28:18
Speaker
and they're like my go-to for any, right.
00:28:20
Speaker
They probably have read every single rejection and acceptance I've ever got.
00:28:24
Speaker
that's great.
00:28:26
Speaker
And vice versa.
00:28:27
Speaker
So yeah, yeah, that, that was really great.
00:28:30
Speaker
And we're all at like very different stages with stuff.
00:28:33
Speaker
Um, but that, that's been a massive support.
00:28:36
Speaker
I genuinely, I think they were the, other than my husband, they were the first people I called when I got the book deal offer and they were just as excited as me, which was really nice.
00:28:46
Speaker
Um,
00:28:46
Speaker
And then I also have people from my MA who I do a regular kind of Zoom.
00:28:51
Speaker
Now it's Zoom.
00:28:52
Speaker
It used to be in person, writing group with.
00:28:54
Speaker
And then literally all the people I know from Twitter, which is a lot.
00:28:58
Speaker
Okay.
00:28:59
Speaker
I think what we've learned from speaking to people in the past is that writing is an inherently lonely task and you have to involve yourself in some kind of community.
The Importance of a Supportive Writing Community
00:29:12
Speaker
If for no other reason than just emotional support to get you through it all.
00:29:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
Because I think it's a very...
00:29:21
Speaker
people don't really like outside of it, understand it.
00:29:23
Speaker
Like friends and family is like with the best will in the world.
00:29:26
Speaker
They just, it's such a, it can feel like it's such a complicated process.
00:29:30
Speaker
It's like,
00:29:32
Speaker
When I was doing the agent submission process, if I got a full manuscript request, I'd be like, oh my God.
00:29:36
Speaker
And then my mum would be like, does that mean your book's getting published?
00:29:39
Speaker
And I was like, no, that's not what it means.
00:29:42
Speaker
The first thing you're always asked whenever you say, oh, I'm writing a book.
00:29:46
Speaker
The first thing you're asked by people outside of the sphere is when's it getting published?
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:53
Speaker
It's so true.
00:29:54
Speaker
That's like the main thing that they're concerned with.
00:29:57
Speaker
It's like, I want to read the book.
00:29:59
Speaker
It's like, apparently there's no process in their world.
00:30:01
Speaker
It's like.
00:30:05
Speaker
I was talking to my dad the other day.
00:30:06
Speaker
He's a big, a big reader.
00:30:09
Speaker
He's, and he was saying to me, he was asking me about, how's your book going?
00:30:12
Speaker
And I was saying that, I can't remember which stage of editing I was at with my editor, but I was telling him and he was like, ooh.
00:30:18
Speaker
it's a lot that goes into a book, isn't there?
00:30:20
Speaker
I said, you never really think that you have all these people making all these edits for you.
00:30:24
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, I think some people, I think like it can seem from the outside, like there's just a Word document that you just send off to a publisher and they just print it.
00:30:32
Speaker
I know.
00:30:33
Speaker
Trying to explain the like really long process between that and actually seeing the book out in the world is tricky sometimes.
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:41
Speaker
Going back to your book, it's a psychological thriller about a woman who is married and then is trying to figure out what to do now that her first love has been thrown back into her life and all those feelings that come back again.
00:30:59
Speaker
What was the inspiration behind that?
00:31:02
Speaker
So I'm...
00:31:04
Speaker
One of the things I do find really interesting is kind of looking back on like past relationships.
00:31:09
Speaker
And I think particularly like first love and teenage relationship, I think depending like how you view it, people have a tendency to look back on stuff and be like, oh, it's really romantic.
00:31:18
Speaker
That was like the big love because it's all easy in your teenager.
00:31:22
Speaker
And I think actually a lot of teenage relationships can actually be really quite damaging.
00:31:29
Speaker
And I think it's the behavior you kind of put up with when you were a teenager, like,
00:31:34
Speaker
very possessive, very jealous.
00:31:36
Speaker
It's very obsessive, isn't it?
00:31:37
Speaker
That first love.
00:31:39
Speaker
For sure.
00:31:40
Speaker
Oh yeah, definitely.
00:31:41
Speaker
Because I feel like you're trying to figure out how it all works and all you've seen is television shows that are completely over-dramatised.
00:31:48
Speaker
So that's how you think it's supposed to be.
00:31:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:50
Speaker
So I was kind of interested in like, if that spilled over into your adult life and you never really understood that that first relationship was not how a good relationship should be and you kind of idolised it to the point where
00:32:03
Speaker
You couldn't let it go.
00:32:05
Speaker
And then that person came back when you were an adult, but you were still in that mindset.
00:32:09
Speaker
Like what sort of impact would that have on your life?
00:32:12
Speaker
Hmm.
00:32:14
Speaker
Oh, wow.
00:32:14
Speaker
Sounds really interesting.
00:32:15
Speaker
That is so interesting.
00:32:17
Speaker
And you haven't got a cover at the moment, I see, but I'm interested to know on how much say did you get on your cover and that whole process of, you know, the illustration process?
00:32:33
Speaker
Is that something that you had a little bit of input on?
00:32:38
Speaker
No, you're actually asking me at a very interesting moment because I...
00:32:42
Speaker
saw my cover for the first time just before this call and I have a call with a agent later to talk about it.
00:32:50
Speaker
Oh, okay, okay.
00:32:53
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:32:54
Speaker
So maybe ask me later, but yeah, you don't really have, I mean, I knew that I wouldn't have much say because I know enough novelists who have asked about it who've gone, nah, you just kind of get one.
00:33:06
Speaker
But yeah, I haven't really been involved in the process so far, but this is the first time I've seen it, so.
00:33:12
Speaker
I might be, we'll see.
00:33:13
Speaker
Oh, so you're about to find out how much input you actually need.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, we'll see.
00:33:19
Speaker
Do you think it's something you'd like to be involved in?
00:33:22
Speaker
I know I've spoke to people before, just, you know, friends, et cetera, that are writers and have published and they kind of, some didn't even want to get involved.
00:33:32
Speaker
And, you know, some were like, oh no, I actually need this top to be this color.
00:33:38
Speaker
And it's actually really pivotal to my story that they're wearing these trainers or X amount or, you know, just in their front cover.
00:33:46
Speaker
Was it something that was important to you or is important to you?
00:33:50
Speaker
No, I think I'm quite, what's the word for it?
00:33:53
Speaker
I don't think I'm that sentimental about that side of things.
00:33:56
Speaker
I don't know if that's like because my job is marketing.
00:33:59
Speaker
But from my point of view, if they make me a cover and they tell me this is going to sell, I don't care.
00:34:06
Speaker
Like I have feelings about it.
00:34:08
Speaker
and I work with this but at the end of the day that's like that's why I'm with a publisher and why I'm not self-published because I know I don't have the skills to understand what sells on Amazon yeah um and they do so if they think something's a good cover I don't I don't know maybe maybe I don't have enough artistic integrity but I'm happy if they if they tell me it's gonna sell and the color of the dress is wrong for example I don't care about that so much
00:34:35
Speaker
Okay, so to you, the cover is a tool just to sell the book and you're happy for that to be left to the experts, really?
00:34:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:42
Speaker
I think a lot of people get caught up that it should be very reflective of their story.
00:34:48
Speaker
And from what I know, I don't think that's not really how the publisher sees it.
00:34:52
Speaker
It needs to be reflective of the story to a point, but the main goal of it is to get people to care enough to pick it up in the first place.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:34:59
Speaker
The cover is just to get them to open the first page and hopefully buy the book.
00:35:04
Speaker
Do you think you working in marketing has helped you with this whole process?
00:35:10
Speaker
Or, you know, do you think in any way it's hindered anything because you know sort of the structure of what's going on and how it needs to go on?
00:35:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I definitely think it's helped me in terms of I understand what I need to do to kind of
00:35:28
Speaker
I understand how to write a press release, for example.
00:35:30
Speaker
I know how to make graphics, all that stuff is like my day-to-day job.
00:35:33
Speaker
But I think sometimes where it hinders me is just I do that all day.
00:35:38
Speaker
So one of the things I have to do at the moment this weekend is something to do with my WordPress hosting on my website.
00:35:45
Speaker
And my day job at the moment is dealing with our WordPress website.
00:35:48
Speaker
So I just don't have the energy to do it.
00:35:51
Speaker
And sometimes it can feel a bit relentless.
00:35:55
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I think it does help.
00:35:58
Speaker
It doesn't scare, like I know a lot of authors are really scared of the marketing side, whereas that side doesn't scare me.
00:36:03
Speaker
I just sometimes don't want to do it.
00:36:06
Speaker
You're just over it.
00:36:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:08
Speaker
You're just like, this is my everyday.
00:36:10
Speaker
I don't want to do it anymore.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:14
Speaker
And speaking to those authors who are potentially afraid of the marketing side of it, or people who are just generally afraid of all the different aspects of this industry.
00:36:25
Speaker
And going back to when you first started writing, when you first thought, I'm going to try and submit a book and get it published.
00:36:32
Speaker
What advice would you give to either your younger self or other aspiring authors who are now just about to pick up a pen or tap the first word out on the keyboard?
Advice for Aspiring Writers
00:36:43
Speaker
I think engaging with the industry is important, but I think if I had known all the things I know now when I was trying to write my first draft, I think it would have stopped me from being able to write.
00:36:56
Speaker
I think there's a time and a place to start thinking about agents and publishers and marketing.
00:37:03
Speaker
And I think, I mean, I don't know, it depends on how you are as a person.
00:37:06
Speaker
I think for me, it would have stifled my ability to do anything if I had got all of that knowledge up front.
00:37:14
Speaker
Because you do have to like, you have to love the actual writing.
00:37:18
Speaker
And this is what I've been like struggling with, I'd say recently in terms of so much of my time that's dedicated to writing is now dedicated to kind of marketing side of things.
00:37:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:30
Speaker
That it can feel like,
00:37:33
Speaker
there's a lot going on which isn't anything to do with why I wanted to write a book in the first place which is that I love writing and I like telling stories and I think if you just focus on I'm doing this to get a publishing deal you're going to be disappointed when you get one because actually your day-to-day life is not going to change like there's so many nice things about it but if you if you're only doing it for that when you get it I think it will feel not like you imagine so you have to think the writing part of it is
00:38:01
Speaker
it has got to be the reason you do it.
00:38:03
Speaker
Otherwise I can't see people sticking with it because it is hard.
00:38:06
Speaker
It's hard work.
00:38:07
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:38:07
Speaker
On an added front to that, what you've just said, I think it definitely is about the love and, you know, people that we've spoke to throughout this process.
00:38:15
Speaker
I think it has to be about your love for writing and everyone that we have, have spoke to, no matter how they've got into it or they're self-published or,
00:38:24
Speaker
et cetera, et cetera.
00:38:25
Speaker
It's all been through a massive love for their story and the story that they're wanting to tell.
00:38:31
Speaker
So I think it's great that you have said that as well and confirmed that obviously it is sort of a process that takes a longer time than what it is.
00:38:42
Speaker
Just I want to see my book in Waterstones or I want to see it on Amazon or et cetera, et cetera.
00:38:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:50
Speaker
Yeah, Jamie, I feel like we have one more question and you're going to ask the question.
00:38:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:38:55
Speaker
Okay, here we go.
Desert Island Book Choice
00:38:57
Speaker
The final question for you, Sophie, is if you were stranded on a desert island with only a single book, which one would it be?
00:39:04
Speaker
This is honestly one of my worst questions.
00:39:06
Speaker
So this is the only question you guys talked about beforehand so I could prep.
00:39:11
Speaker
And I said to my husband last night, I said, this is such a hard question.
00:39:14
Speaker
How do I answer?
00:39:15
Speaker
And he was like, I just choose this book.
00:39:17
Speaker
And I went through about 100 books.
00:39:20
Speaker
And the only one I can keep coming back to, which actually isn't something I would read that much normally, is Dolly Alderton's Everything I Know About Love.
00:39:30
Speaker
Everything I Know About Love.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:32
Speaker
Because I was thinking, what would I want if I was on an island and I had no one?
00:39:36
Speaker
I don't know if you've read that book, but it probably goes back to my interest in like nostalgia and looking back on your teenage years.
00:39:42
Speaker
But that book, like just work.
00:39:45
Speaker
When I read it, I was like, this is like reading my actual life.
00:39:48
Speaker
And all of that kind of growing up with MSN and like all the uni years.
00:39:52
Speaker
I just love it.
00:39:53
Speaker
And I thought I'd want to read that book so it could remind me of what life is like outside of my island.
00:39:59
Speaker
Oh, it's brilliant.
00:40:00
Speaker
I've read the book and it's absolutely brilliant, isn't it?
00:40:02
Speaker
I couldn't agree with you more.
00:40:04
Speaker
I just thought the nostalgia of it was absolutely great.
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's a lovely book.
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:09
Speaker
Well done, Dolly.
00:40:10
Speaker
Yeah, well done, Dolly.
00:40:14
Speaker
um oh thank you sophie so much for your time it's been wonderful and you've given us a great insight into your journey as well and hopefully for everyone else as well so that's great we'd love to hear what is going on after you publish your your book as well and we wish you all the best for the future all the best good luck in april excited for the book launch yeah thank you fingers crossed you'll see the cover you'll see if you like it thank
00:40:40
Speaker
All right.
00:40:41
Speaker
Well, you need to make that decision right now.
00:40:43
Speaker
I know.
Closing and Social Media Shoutout
00:40:47
Speaker
To keep up with everything that Sophie's doing, you can follow her on Twitter at Sophie L Flynn or on Instagram at Sophie Flynn Author.
00:40:54
Speaker
And to make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow us on Twitter at Right and Wrong UK and on Instagram at Right and Wrong Podcast.
00:41:00
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you in the next one.