Transcript
Speaker: you you are in the potato position yeah sorry i'm like i'm asleep over right now are like honestly oh my gosh let's paint our nails and talk about boys but i love that vibe that's kind of like what i like when i um you know try to want people to be comfortable when they like come and talk so um Hello, everybody! like I have no idea how this is going to end up sounding. I've never pumped the input volume up this much, oh but we'll see. Hello, everyone in the podcast. It's Molly, and Christina is not here, but I have two very special guests here with me today. um One is Kelsey, my dear friend from high school and church. Hello! From her hometown. And her boyfriend, Chad. Hello, Chad. hey So we're all here and we're just chilling.
Speaker: And Kelsey is in the potato position on the air mattress and Chad is in. the space the space of honor the hot seat um and we're all just hanging out um we just have what almost 15 minutes of like random chatter before before uh uh this beginning because this is i guess going to be the beginning of the episode but uh yeah we're just here to say hi and we're i like want to have you guys like kind of each introduce yourselves if that's okay um chad you want to go first
Speaker: sure cool So I'm Kelsey's boyfriend and Kelsey Molly were friends like years ago. They've been good friends for a while. We're up here in Boston. We were just in Connecticut for my sister's wedding and that kind of brought us up to this area. We wanted to go explore. wanted to meet Molly. I wanted to meet Molly.
Speaker: Yeah. um And so, yeah, that's why we're here. Hanging out with Molly. Hell yeah. And I'm Kelsey. um I'm fresh out of women's prison and I met Chad through a correspondence program. I don't know what to say. I'm sorry. I'm being darky. Um, but yeah, I've known Molly since my family moved to the DC, raised to Northern Virginia. um, we were in the same congregation and, uh,
Speaker: I don't know. feel like we both beat to the, uh, or we both dance the beat of our own drum. There we go. That's, that's exactly it. we We literally do that. Like, you know, to the point that like, it's, I don't know we were talking about this last night where we just sort of have both realized like, man, this connection is like really different. Yeah. You know? And like, we're both just like, so like, yeah, our lives have, have like come together at various points that have just like meshed and, and like,
Speaker: matched up perfectly for like needing to like be there for each other and so it's like really contributed to this very know serious closeness even though like we haven't actually like lived in the same area for what now like 14 years yeah it's been a long time it has it has but yeah it's been interesting that those critical moments we've had those those intersections yeah yeah and it's like i was telling kelsey last night like that is sort of my like clue a little bit of like realizing when somebody's in my soul pod which is the name of the podcast so you know all the more reason was like please please be on the podcast when you come visit and so thank you so much for being here and for being willing to talk i'm flattered that you asked me and i'm so sorry that i was like oh my gosh i want to be on your podcast but really i want my boyfriend to be on your podcast
Speaker: I think it's so fun though because like I didn't even like know the parallels that like Chad and I have yeah and for your listeners yeah ah ah just so you all know um there were a lot of parallels that that Chad has as far as like growing up yeah with with him and Molly and that's why I wanted the two of them to talk because I i just found that really fascinating one yeah like I think it's just good to like meet people who get you you know because and then two like as someone who wants to learn how to be supportive, right? You know, the people that I love, like it's helpful to hear these perspectives that are similar, right? Yeah. And they're both, I mean, well, you guys can explain what your similarities are. i don't need to explain that for you. Yeah. But no, it's, it's like really cool. And I'm so glad that you like thought of it and then like wanted to like push for it to be brought up and like for us to like talk about it because like, hell yeah, we have to talk about it.
Speaker: um So yeah, like the big thing is that both of us are adopted and we both have like found our biological, families and so like that's part of the reason that you're in the area is it was your you know biological family that had the wedding happening and so um yeah like fucking awesome and you told us ah like you told me and jam last night and you know all us like you know a bit of your like story of like how you were put up for adoption and then like how you found your family do you want to like talk a little bit about like that again if you don't mind yeah like you know for again only sharing as much as you feel comfortable like you know no worries so it's like it's little like complicated but also kind of crazy hard everything unfolded so like i some things might come out like completely out of order so forgive me but uh kind of stepping back so i'm originally from maryland i was born in dallas
Speaker: And as Molly said, i was adopted at birth. And so a lot of the parallels were we both grew up in the same like faith, same same church. yeah Different parts of the country, though.
Speaker: um And when... I was born in 1984. So back then, like open adoptions weren't like super common, especially like within in like the realm and community of our church. We had like a church organization. They do lots of like welfare and and things like this. And they had one kind of arm of the church that does like you know family services. Yeah. so Which is what I was adopted through. is Yeah. so there's Yeah. There's lots of cool parallels. So when my mom got pregnant, so um she's from Missouri or she was living in Missouri at the time, born actually in Connecticut.
Speaker: Her father was in the Navy, so they moved around a lot. And when she was about 16, she lived in Maryland where my parents had moved recently to from the Los Angeles area after they got married.
Speaker: And so my parents and her parents were both in the same congregation. So they they they knew each other. And um a few years later, my mom was in college. She came home over Thanksgiving break.
Speaker: She was dating my biological father at the time. you know, trip to fan didn't necessarily make them sleepy. It might've caused some other things and some stuff happened. And, yeah and yeah, I, you know, came into this life.
Speaker: And so she dropped out of college, um you know, to try to figure out what to do And she was living in, likeu she was going to BYU. So that, you know, yeah cats out of the bag, we're Mormon. yeah um So ah yeah, she dropped out of BYU and she moved in with her aunt who was living in Dallas. So that's how I ended being born in Dallas. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And then um when she when I was born, um since her family kind of like knew my family and they had a mutual friend, um that's kind of how things got arranged. And so they went, like my mom wanted me to grow up in the Mormon faith, but wasn't sure how to arrange that. She went to you know our LDS family services, that thing I was mentioning earlier.
Speaker: But they wouldn't do an open adoption. And she felt really strongly like if i'm going to give this child up for adoption, which is a massive sacrifice, I can't even you know fathom. yeah She wanted to be able to visit. And like have visitation rights and like get letters and get photographs. And like she wanted me to be a part of her life and vice versa. It was very important to her. Right. And so because that like didn't already exist, she tried to find a way.
Speaker: hmm. And so she had hired an attorney, you know, to kind of set up a separate contract that would, you know, enable all these things to be able to happen. And none of them did.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of the tough thing about like adoption, like, or there's a lot of tough things about adoption, but like one of the tough things being like, the sensitivity of the adoptive family, like, just sort of wanting to be, like, we want this child, and we don't want, like, any other outside, like, you know, influence on their life, you know, and I think I definitely also felt that, like, in my own upbringing, even though, like, it was a different situation where, like,
Speaker: my biological mom didn't specifically try to have an open adoption like her understanding was that it was a semi-open then for some reason on the other end my adoptive mother was told that it was a closed adoption but they both were told the same definition which was that i would be allowed to look for my biological mother when i turned 18 which is the definition of a semi-open so i don't really know why there was like a confusion there but like It was also different because like my family's, you know, biological and adoptive didn't know each other and they lived in different parts of the country. So like, you know, I was born in Detroit and then I grew up in Northern Virginia, very so close to where, you know, you ended up growing up. which is another parallel. It was just like, what the hell? But like, because of that, like there was no chance of any overlap between the like two families. And there was a little bit of like, you know, my parents did send a few photographs
Speaker: through the agency that were given to my biological mother. She had a few like in, in a um photo album photos that I could, I recognized, like they couldn't have identifying like images of like the front of my parents' faces, but like there was one of like the back of my dad's head that I like absolutely recognized. And I recognized like, cause I was obsessed with family photo albums when I was a kid. I was always looking through them. I recognized like the photo runs that like they were taken from And so like, it was really interesting to like see that like in this random lady's house that I only just met when I first, you know, visited.
Speaker: um it was pretty crazy. But like, you know, if there was any confirmation needed, because we, you know, we figured it out. and we were like, yeah, it's pretty obvious. But then like, that was like the settle it like that's Yeah, this is definitely, you know, who you are. And, you know, it was just like, interesting layers of like, confirmation of like,
Speaker: this is real this is fucking real like um but yeah like that was it like they didn't really get any photos beyond like six months or a year my my bio mom I mean um because like but and they exchanged letters for a couple like not even if know it was really just a couple of letters like over like the course of one year um but like That's kind of the extent of it. And I don't know what was actually required. I don't know what was expected.
Speaker: it seems like there was miscommunication all around. so like, yes, you have a question, Kelsey? Finish your thought first. I was just going say, like, it feels to me like LDS Family Services for even though it was like an official organization.
Speaker: didn't really seem to have its shit together in in a lot of ways. ah so But you know also, like it doesn't totally surprise me. Sometimes I feel like insensitive natured subjects like adoption, and particularly people who seem to be pretty sensitive about, like, especially, like, the sanctity of the family and, like, all of that, like, they can get a little bit weird about, like, I don't want anybody, like, anybody else trying to, like, cling to this, you know, kid or whatever. And that's, like, not, like, in a super clear upfront thought that any of them have, but it seems to, like, sort of run in the background and, like, maybe have a little bit of a hand in the way that, like, these kids are raised. And, it's like, even if we're told...
Speaker: you know, as early as possible that we're adopted. Like, it's still also sort of told like, oh, you you're supposed to be with us though and not with them. don't know. that that's That's like the tone that I got when I was growing up. I don't know if you felt the same way.
Speaker: because I didn't really know, i mean, I knew growing up that I was adopted, but I didn't really know much of the story until after the fact. So it wasn't like I was ever like in contact with anyone from all these services growing up.
Speaker: But it is like kind of that, like what pointed out, like the the irony of it of like, we have a faith where it's core, like, you know, like principles and stuff center on family and the importance of family and cho family. Like that, why isn't that more of an option? I don't know if it was just know the culture of what things were back in the day or if it was just a legal thing, but you wouldd think there'd be more,
Speaker: of a push or yeah more of an openness, more of an openness yeah you know, while still respecting the the desires of both parties, but still at least, yeah you know, like have more of an option to yeah to be able to connect people that want to connect. Yeah. You would think. And like you had mentioned too last night that like, whenever you would ask questions when you were growing up, your adoptive parents seem to just sort of like avoid the subject a little bit. And that to me reads a little bit like they, you know, they weren't,
Speaker: going to lie to you about being adopted, but they also weren't going to be like 100% like upfront about everything. And that sort of reads to me like they just sort of didn't want it to play a factor in like how you defined family for yourself, if that makes sense. Does that like, don't let me yeah put words in your mouth. Like if that doesn't track for you, please say so. But like, that's sort of the vibe that I got. And I also sort of, mean like I had a different experience because my parents definitely tried to like be as honest with me as they could. They didn't have a whole lot of information, but what information they did have, they would give me in like age appropriate ways.
Speaker: Um, But like, they still also sort of treated it like a, you know, you're here now and not over there. So maybe, like, i I don't know, maybe it was me projecting, maybe it was real. But like, I sort of felt like there was a little bit of a discomfort with my like, insistent curiosity about where I came from.
Speaker: um Maybe you got a little bit of that too. Yeah, it's hard. Because... because Like it's not an easy subject where like it's it's easy to be like someone's right, someone's wrong. Like I, you know, like I yeah i don't know what it's like to be a parent. You know, like my my parents tried for like 10, 11 years to have kids. Right.
Speaker: And so like when you, I don't even know what that struggle is like. Right. um So then to finally be given the opportunity, you know, and then like. I think my dad was more open.
Speaker: My mom i definitely had some deeply rooted like insecurities that I'm sure like contributed to it. And so like even for my dad, I think it was probably hard like walking that fine line of like, I want to be honest and transparent with my child.
Speaker: But I've also got to like respect yeah the desires and and the insecurities of of my wife. Right. yeah And then you have like the legal stuff with the contract and the church, you know, so like I'm sure like there was no real easy black and white answer. But, you know, as a child, you don't you don't understand what's going on like behind the scenes. But when I did finally meet them at 21 and I realized like,
Speaker: they knew each other they were connected there was this mutual friend that like connected them together that was my dad's business partner it's not like this was just some random person in the middle of nowhere like they knew each other and they still like kept it from me and so like you know like there was that sense of like betrayal you know like growing up yeah yeah that's definitely tough and it's like you know you spoke about like your mom's like insecurity and I think that that's that is a huge factor that also again is something we can both like relate to but like you know i think that it's I don't know whether it's Mormon culture or whether it's just sort of like 90s 80s 90s mom culture but just like this
Speaker: this um insecurity feeling, especially of like, you know, couples who have trouble with fertility, because that was also my parents' problem. Like they only tried, they were young and they only were trying for like four or five years and then they decided to adopt. And that's, you know, where they found me. And then after the fact, they used in vitro to have the rest of my siblings.
Speaker: But there is like a little bit of like, yeah, that insecurity feeling of just like this kid didn't come from me but like i really need them to like belong to me and so like this intensity of just like i don't i really really don't want them to know like the rest of their you know biological or like maybe not even outwardly feeling that way but just like you can tell that that's sort of running their um agenda in the background yes kelsey i'm sorry i feel like i shouldn't be interrupting because It's your guys' story. I like really want to hear from you. i want to know what questions you have. i
Speaker: Again, i i want to be respectful that, like you know, because someone's just interjecting like, I totally get it too. It's like, you don't. Shut up. You're doing the opposite of interjecting because you're literally like raising your hand and it's the cutest thing in the world and I love it. i I wonder, again, i ah if because like, and I'm only saying this as someone who, again,
Speaker: doesn't know what any of these experiences like for you or for your mothers or anything. um But just as someone who is childless in the LDS church um and seeing and participating in a ward both in ah in a singles congregation and in a congregation that's full of families and seeing just how much especially back in like the early 2000s and before that, how much emphasis there was on, oh as a woman, your worth comes from being a mother. right That is where your main sense of self yeah and your sense of self-worth is from being a mother. And like you, this sort of sense of failure when you are not a mother, right? yeah um And i I mean, I've even seen people in our singles congregation that we've attended for a long time, who really were deeply bitter about not being married or a mother, right? And so I wonder if that also played into some of their so insecurities of being in the 90s and 80s of just that like, oh my my role in life is to be a mother and I am failing and I need this child to be 100% mine. So I have a sense of self-definition within the confines of,
Speaker: gender norms of the church right you fucking nailed it dude no that's very insightful like i didn't think about that but that makes total sense yeah yeah and i didn't think about either because i like as you guys know i'm not in the church anymore and it's been a long time since i've ever had to think in terms of like feeling like I needed to define myself in any particular way, but especially in a way of being a mother. so like, it didn't even occur to me that that could be, like, a source of insecurity for someone who, like, for them, like, that's the core of their, like, identity and, like, what they've always been told. And therefore, like, you know, it's their only hope and dream and goal is to, like, get there. Like, i don't know.
Speaker: as a person who doesn't understand what that's like, I don't have the mothering impulse. I don't want children. Like, you know, I'm never going to have children. And so like, I don't understand what it feels like yeah to want that.
Speaker: And like, I understand what it feels like to be expected to want it. And just to be like, I don't get it. But like, you know like i'm really glad that you pointed that out because i think it makes a lot of sense and and there's probably more to it than that but you know i don't know if they were worried that oh if if i allow the ah the biological mom in am i gonna feel like i have a timeshare baby that's that's maybe not sorry that's probably a very inappropriate way to put it i apologize next what are you talking about
Speaker: but But you know what I mean? There probably is that the insecurity of is this going to undermine my motherhood and my sense of self, right? oh I'm not saying that's correct. Like, obviously, like, they needed to go to therapy to work that out. Yeah, but it's real. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing is, like, doesn't have to be correct or incorrect. Like, it's just real.
Speaker: Like, it doesn' it doesn't even have to be the entirety of the issue. you know, for it to still be extremely valid. Like, I think that makes total sense. i mean, just seeing from from your adoptive mother, it seems like she's very much defined herself as a mother, right? A mother of your brother with autism, a mother of... you know like she proudly announced like when she won that mother award, you know, like, like being a mother and like your mother also seemed to very much define herself by by her womanhood and motherhood as well. right Yeah, 100 percent. I remember distinctly when I was a kid.
Speaker: I would ask her all the time. I'd be like, what did you want to be when you grew up? And she was like, I just wanted to be a mom. And I like never understood it. I was like, what are you talking about? Why didn't you want a job? like Why did you want a career? Don't you have a passion? and she was like, yes, just being a mom and a homemaker. I like to cook and quilt and stuff. I'm being very, very over-exaggerated. But that was pushed on women in, like, the 70s. Right, but it was like she had fully taken it into herself as her identity. Yeah. And I, like, again, I couldn't comprehend it. I was just like, what the hell? What does that mean? I don't get it. Like, it was like, you didn't have anything else? And she was just like, nope, just wanted to be a mom. And I'm like.
Speaker: okay and like now that you like put that perspective i'm just like that is what the church expected oh okay that makes total sense very funny that it took me a very long time to figure that out but uh you know but yeah no thank you for that very fucking excellent point you are A brilliant genius. ah You are very flattering. But ah thank you for letting me interject. Now back to the original programming. know that That's a great point.
Speaker: Because like I think eventually what we're probably where we're going end up at is like talking about mothers and motherhood. and like Because that's really like like a big parallel too. Not just, I mean, a lot of the adoption stuff as well, but like trying to understand like where our mothers are coming from and kind of where a lot of stuff. So like that's a really great point.
Speaker: Yeah. of like the the church's emphasis and and I'm sure like for my mom at least it was very like multifaceted but I'm sure like like the desire and like I guess the expectation some of it maybe self-inflicted I'm sure a lot of it like culturally, religiously inflicted or whatever like motherhood it was very important to my mom.
Speaker: And like you mentioned, like the award stuff. So there's an organization called American Mothers. They're like responsible for like making Mother's Day, like however many years ago. wow But like my mom was the Maryland Mother of the Year for a while and then eventually like went national and it was like like a pageant kind of a thing, right? I not even know that was a thing. Yeah. And so like, it's like a state thing where you have like Miss Maryland, Miss Virginia, Miss Massachusetts, whatever. And so like my mom was like, like the Maryland mother. And then like, like a pageant like a pageant mother, yeah exactly like a pageant kind of thing. And then eventually like went to nationals and was national mother the year. Wow. And so like that's a very good point of like she defined herself she defined herself yeah as a mother, you know, and she was a great mother, you know. And the other thing you mentioned, too, is like i have a brother with autism.
Speaker: And so like after I was born, like my parents were able to have, you know, children of their own a few years later. And my youngest sibling was born with autism. And so like my autistic brother became a huge part of my mom's identity and it still is.
Speaker: And so like that is a very insightful point about like, yeah about motherhood and that identity and trying to understand that. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, kind of, again, it's not an exact like one to one, but like, you know, in a similar vein, the way that like my mother, you know, also very much.
Speaker: like rooted her identity in motherhood and the need to be a mother and like the the role her like divine role being motherhood um and then like you know having the struggle with infertility having the adoption process and then having the in vitro process which was also very you know difficult um and expensive and like just uh all-around challenge um But, like you know, she ended up with four children. And like, you know, she also did ah fantastic job in terms of like, making sure that we were provided for making sure that we had everything we wanted and needed and that like, we were very happy children and we had like, a you know, a lot of good experiences and works, you know, exposed to a lot of like,
Speaker: you know, new things and which is, which is very interesting when you think about like when you contrast like, you know, the other side of how she really feels about lot of things, but I'm not going to get into that. um But then like to go to, you know, the point at which like my father was diagnosed with brain cancer and then he later passed away.
Speaker: Like, I think she sort of took that time in that like phase of our life and then like sort of superimposed, like, motherhood and, like, single motherhood and, like, enduring that challenge as, like, a big part of, again, her identity and, like, needing that to be the thing that everybody understood about her and never everyone understood that, like, this is, like, who she is and, like, that she can do it.
Speaker: And, like, she absolutely succeeded at that. But, you know, you can't, like, be that intense about something without causing, like, a little bit of problems elsewhere. you know, we've, again, I do not need to get into the details, but, and you know, it's just sort of like, it it was, it flew in the face of how I wanted to deal with that, um with that trauma.
Speaker: And so like, that's part of the place where we butted heads the most, I think. But like, it was still that sort of, feeling of like I need I've always wanted to be a mom now I get to be a mom and then oh no now I have to be the best mom ever and I have to do it up against all these challenges and I can definitely see like that parallel as well Yes. Raising my hand. on my i also wonder too, if like the difference between mothers who adopt for their first child versus mothers who have had children and adopted the end. Right. like Yeah. um
Speaker: ah Cause it probably is more tied into that, that I'm doing this because it's an identity crisis versus the like, I'm doing this because I feel like can I can something for Yeah, versus the, I feel like our family's not fully complete, right? Right, yeah. I have to imagine that there's a lot more identity stuff wrapped up in that.
Speaker: i think you're I think you're definitely right. And I think it's like it ties back to exactly what you said about like the need to begin the motherhood journey, being the like urgency behind like going through the adoption process versus like already having children and then being like,
Speaker: no, we need more children. like we need That sounds awful. like we need you know that There needs to be more children in this family. Like like you said, like the the family isn't like complete or what have you.
Speaker: um ah do feel like there's a different approach taken for families who do it in that order instead. yeah like And it's not that I want to say that there's a right or wrong way to parent because there isn't, because obviously. sure um But like I think that like people who...
Speaker: have their own children and they like experience like parenthood in its like most basic raw form of like, you know, bringing a child into the world and then like understanding the nature and what it feels like to have like parental love for a kid. have They have that settled within them first and then they have an adoption experience and they can be, i think, a little more mindful, a little more self-aware about like what might be different or might feel different for them versus like when you to adopt first and you feel what you think is supposed to be like exactly what a parental love
Speaker: feeling should be and then you have your biological kids and it feels different i would imagine again none of us have children so we can't really like for say for sure but like it's you know it's making sense in my head i'm just like it's a different feeling it has to be a different feeling you know and it's like you can still have it be a different feeling and still like love your adopted child with all your heart and soul but like it's not gonna be the same um but yeah i definitely think that the order factors in
Speaker: for sure yeah no i definitely agree too i think yeah like you're saying the order yeah because you it's all like i guess expectation or like what what what do you do when your first child is is adopted right and like as a man like i don't understand this you know and i i never will but like i know like the bond between a mother and a child it's just so incredibly deep yeah like nothing can compare to nothing can compare to that and so like if that's missing like does that bring on a sense of guilt like i had this child that i love dearly but like i'm missing that bond and it's like yeah or like i don't like i love this child but i i don't know how to love it the same way do my other children in and so does that make me a bad mother and like does that introduce like a whole level of guilt Yeah, and I'm sure that there are instances of, like, a mother, like, maybe overcompensating with the adopted child in terms of, like, you know, giving or, you know, what have you. But, like, I don't feel like that was either of our experiences. I mean, like, not to say that we were necessarily deprived of anything necessarily, but, like, you know, like there's there's different ways that, like, the differences can manifest, yeah like, externally, i guess. Yeah.
Speaker: But yeah, like, I can't even fathom what that would truly feel. Like, I can i can speculate about it. i really cannot fathom what it actually feels like. um Yeah, just like you said. Like, i mean, I already said it. I'm never going to be a mother either. So, like, I'm never going to know. um So, you know, it's – but it's, you know, so it's just different. it's um And it's interesting, too, and I'd be curious to know, like, what the dynamic was with your siblings growing up because, like – For me, like, I never felt super close. I never felt like my siblings and i understood each other a lot of the time. i never felt particularly like they wanted me to be their older sister. And I know that sounds so bad. And I, like, want to just put an asterisk there. It's just, like, don't panic. Like, it's, I say that sometimes. meaning it was just sort of like a like oh i was just incidentally there and i just happened to be there but like they just sort of looked at me like who are you like they noticed that that you weren't on the same wavelength all the time you mean yeah and who knows how much of that was like me being neurodivergent versus you know them not being because like i don't know i for all i know they could be and they just you know they
Speaker: are showing up differently but like i came from two neurodivergent parents and so like there was no chance of me not being you know it's riddled with adhd um and it's very different when you grow up not having a diagnosis and not having treatment for that and so like you know to grow up in a house where like everybody else is neurotypical and you are the weirdo like you know that's that's been my experience and also like visually i fit in with the family, like, I had the dark hair and the blue eyes, but, like, you know, otherwise, like, I was just the black sheep times a hundred million, like, it was just the craziest, just, like, I could not have been more different from all of them, and, like, there certainly were, you know, moments of feeling accepted, but it just never...
Speaker: nothing ever 100% clicked, especially not all the time. And so like, I grew up with this feeling of like, they all understand what it's like to like, know where they came from and like who they actually are. And I don't have that privilege, but I don't have anybody to like,
Speaker: talk to you about it because i feel like it would offend my parents if i were just to just like say that to them and like my siblings don't understand so i was just like you know it was like a feeling and a thought process i had to have like fully internally um i don't know do you have any do you relate to that at all like i don't know i'm i'm curious yeah very yeah absolutely it's very similar like you could tell obviously like I was adopted. We looked different. like every Like in school, we'd be in school together. We'd be hanging out with friends and like, it just came up all the time. Like, you don't look the same. Are you adopted? wow And I was just like, wow, actually. um
Speaker: Did that sting when they would ask? i mean, i I don't recall it, like, like, consciously, like, I mean, maybe it did. And I just wasn't fully aware of it in the moment, like as a five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, whatever year old kid. Yeah. It's just the kind of thing where it just became sort of a fact of it was just kind of I mean, for me, it was like, it was my normal, I guess. Right. yeah um But like, there were some stark differences, like my brother is like, blonde, you know, like, my sister is like, mostly blonde. And, and for listeners, he has dark hair. Yeah, I have like dark brown hair. Yeah. um
Speaker: And so like like physically we look different. But then also like our traits were different. You know, like they like things that I didn't like and I like things that they didn't like. And, you know, like they had different accomplishments and things came more naturally to them than they did to me. And so...
Speaker: it it was like very obvious that that I was different, but like you said, like there was no one to talk to about it. yeah um And I tried talking to them about stuff because I was naturally a very, very curious kid and very observant.
Speaker: That's a hard combination to be like curious, observant and adopted. Especially like, especially like when you ask your parents questions and then like they kind of dodge it. So that was like my experience, like it happened a lot.
Speaker: I can't tell you like the moment like they told me, as I don't really remember. I just remember growing up knowing that I was adopted, yeah but not really remembering the actual experience. yeah um But I would have questions. I'd be like i'd i'd ask them things, and and every time I'd ask a question, like the subject would get changed, and it would be like dismissed. and so After doing this like over and over again, I just eventually just kind of gave up and was like, okay, I guess I'm not asking more questions. I guess I'm not yeah going to get answers. And so like, I'm sure like for you too, like you, I mean, being adopted, you have to discover your identity on your own. yeah But when you have no one to talk to and your parents and
Speaker: you know, like, won't answer questions. It's really challenging. Yeah. Like, my parents, I mean, like I said, like I had mentioned, like, they did answer what they could. They just didn't have a whole lot of information, which is very, that's an interesting way in which our stories are, like, almost opposites, where, like, your parents, like, had so much information and, like, just didn't want to give it to you. And my parents had, like, no information, but they would have given me it if they could have, you know? And so, yeah, what's up? There's so many more questions. So,
Speaker: you mentioned how there are at least a few letters in the beginning did you know about those letters early on and did your parents tell you because like you also had letters just for the first year too that i was shown i was shown them when i was like 17 or 18 i think oh it wasn't a big shock or anything it was just sort of like ah oh like here's like a little box of like stuff like i didn't have she didn't have photographs because like you know, also my biological grandmother mother, Christina, could not, like, send identifying photographs of herself. So, like, she didn't have photographs of herself, but, like, she did send, there was, like, a, um,
Speaker: She had like knitted a little baby blanket that was sent with me to the lady that fostered me for five weeks because like you have to be at least five weeks old before you can be placed with your adoptive family. Really? like it was all settled before I was born and then I was born and then I was placed in the in foster care with it it was like an older think she was like a lady in her like 60s or something. So it wasn't like a, you know, big crazy, you know, foster family that has a whole bunch of random children or anything like that. It was just like a nice older lady that could take care of a baby. And so like the blanket had gone with me to the foster lady. And then I guess they also sent the blanket from the foster lady to my parents. So like they had kept that blanket that my, that Christina had knitted. um And they had a couple of the letters and stuff, but like,
Speaker: And then I think, yeah, Christina had letters from my parents still saved as well. But it was, again, it was like literally two or three, i think, before the agency had just sort of stopped, like, sharing stuff. I don't really understand what happened with the agency. um But yeah, does that answer your question? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and, like, how like my how old were you again when you got you got the box, right? um She, like, she didn't, like, give it to me, but she just sort of showed it to me. Like, she had it stored in a closet somewhere. Okay. um And she was just, like, here's, like, this stuff if you want to look at it. And i was, like, oh, this is cool. And I was, like, a very curious kid, as I mentioned, like last night. Like... I found that form that had my biological parents names on it. And like, that was me fully like snooping. So like, I was just always going through stuff whenever I had an opportunity. Like it was just the curious and observant kid, um you know, ADHD.
Speaker: Like, literally, like, it was just the kind of thing where I'm sure eventually I would have come across it at some point if i you know had enough time to do so but like yeah she just sort of i don't even remember like what conversation led to her deciding to like bring that out of the closet and like show it to me but it wasn't some big like dramatic like ceremonial like let me now bestow this upon you but more of like all right you're curious about like you know your adoption and your, you know, biological family. So like, here's some stuff.
Speaker: So it was cool. And I saved, I did like keep and save all those things after a while. So yeah. But I think I was probably like 17 at that point.
Speaker: But I was, I always, for as long as I could remember, I knew that I was adopted. Like, I think I grasped the concept when I was like five, but I'm sure that it was talked about to me before that.
Speaker: And I just sort of like, didn't fully understand before that, you know, so you can shift. a Okay. I'm like, I don't want to make too much noise, but also like the angle for turning. Okay. Here we go.
Speaker: but Yeah. Um, But yeah, that feeling of like, yeah, the the identity. it was I was like, you had asked me something and I'm trying to remember what it was. But like, yeah, needing to sort of figure out your own identity kind of thing.
Speaker: I felt like very much so that like, this this is where it gets a little sticky with my the way that I was raised within the church. Because I felt... intensely suppressed by like church standards and rules and expectations because like as i have mentioned i don't want to be a mother so like that rule and expectation of like future motherhood never felt like it applied to me um but also just like you know anything that like I don't know. i you know, i was, I was always curious and interested in things that were more offbeat and more like, um not necessarily looked at as like, super uplifting and positive in the church's eyes. You know, hey I'm a huge music person. And like, I love rock and, you know, like hard rock and like punk rock and like, really, ah like almost every subgenre. But like, I really, it's particularly gravitated to like,
Speaker: punk rock culture but like never felt like i could fully like research into it and like understand like the ideology behind it because it just felt so off limits based on the way the church expected me to be and like the youth to be in general that's just an example but like yeah as a okay as a boy did you feel that because i feel like girls and boys are treated very different and they're true yeah and he he is into funk i'm sorry i keep telling your story are you you're good you're good i'm just excited yeah um no sure i didn't know that too that's another parallel too yeah um the punk rock thing um i guess like there's not really the same expectation for fatherhood it's not a very like right apples you know apples to orange kind of thing but like
Speaker: For us, I think it was probably more about being a missionary. Than like, yeah i think the motherhood was definitely like, really ingrained into women. Whereas like being a missionary was like kind of the maybe the male equivalent.
Speaker: Growing up and like, ah Growing up, i you know like when you're really young and you're like, I hope they call me on a mission. you know it's like yeah And so like when you're young, like you you know like you have this idea like, oh yeah, when I grow up, i want to be a missionary. That sounds cool.
Speaker: But then like once I got to like close to my teenage years, I was like, no, I don't want to do that. like yeah I was like very punk rock too, like very like anti-authority, very like anti-rules. i was like One of my favorite bands in high school was Bad Religion. i actually had a Bad Religion t-shirt that I'd wear to church just to kind of like stick my nose up at the people and be like, ha, take that. you know I'm not one of you. like screw you and Think about stuff. Like, stop just being sheep, you know, like, like challenge your faith, doubt, ask questions. Yes. But ah so like there was a period where like I didn't have any desire to go on a mission. right And like that made me kind of feel weird and different and isolated from everybody else.
Speaker: And so, like, there's kind of, like, the adoption isolation at home. And then, like, in my faith, there's kind of the isolation of, like, why don't I think the same way as all these people? Like, I don't think, like, my parents do or, like, my family does and in ah in a sense. But then I come to church. I come to my my my faith community. And I feel also isolated and different.
Speaker: Yeah. You know, because I'm at home listening to, like, NOAA facts and, like, bad religion and, like, all those different types of stuff. And, like, yeah yeah yeah. It's so interesting that you mentioned the missionary dynamic or, like, the expectation, too, because, like,
Speaker: in addition to motherhood. Like I feel like with young women it was sort of presented as like, the First thing we hope that you do is get married and then have a bunch of children. But if you decide not to do that or you can't do that immediately, then the next best thing you can do is go on a mission. And I remember thinking like I was being presented with those two options and I was just like, fucking neither. Like, no. But I just sort of, you know, like when I wanted to shy away from feeling like I was super gung ho about motherhood, I would be like, maybe I'll go on a mission. i don't know. And then like when I, you know, felt like I was being pushed toward a mission, I was like, maybe I'll get married first. i don't know. And then neither of them happened. And I was just like, actually, fuck all of you. i'm leaving. Goodbye. but yeah, like it's, um it's funny because like we, we did sort of, we're, we're both millennials, but like we grew up in kind of different like subsections of millennial because I, you know, I'm eight years are younger than you. um And so like when I was in middle school, like the big band was like fucking in Green Day and like 182 and all that stuff. And so I was like way into Green Day and everybody was just like,
Speaker: oh that girl's weird like She loves to wear black and like cusses at school and her teachers are like yelling at her. and like I'm just like, what is wrong with her?
Speaker: I was just sort of like, oh, this like this is who I am. But I also just so i felt so unsafe. like expressing that way just because of the way the church expected me to be and especially the way my family expected me to be like i was made fun of by my siblings for the music that i listened to and i'm just like wow like you listen to anything more normal than me like you know it's like what are you doing like whatever but yeah it was just hard for me to feel like i was safe to have like my own identity because of the way the church
Speaker: is about like individualism you know it's very much just like it it doesn't encourage people to like think for themselves and so like that was part of the lack of appeal in my opinion but then like you know again with the like I want to know what your experience was like when you actually did get to meet your biological family because like the similarities between me and my my biological parents were freaky honestly so but you please you speak first because i want to know i want to hear like what sort of stuff like came up that you were just like wow like i can't believe that's something we have in common for me it was like really cool because i could you know finally like started figuring things out because the whole life it's i'm like why do i like this or that or whatever and then there are even things you don't even really notice and then like you finally like i finally met my brother with your parents i was like oh
Speaker: that's why I love Dr. Pepper. or like, that's why i mint chocolate chip ice cream is my favorite. yeah Or like, even like weird little things like that. um And another thing too, like recently, like, you know, cause I was up here for my half sister's wedding in Connecticut a couple days ago and like getting to know like my half sister more and realizing like both of our favorite colors are orange.
Speaker: It's like, that's different. We both had this like weird obsession with numbers and and patterns and stuff, but they kind of manifest slightly differently. Yeah. And so like for me, like I had this like weird, like quirky numbers thing with like putting numbers on the microwave, you know, like I have special like lucky numbers and stuff. and yeah I'll set my alarm clock to like certain numbers and things I like or like yeah time on the microwave or like, you know, weird things like that. And for her,
Speaker: For her, like she does patterns and stuff too. like She has like favorite numbers. And and she was like so excited at the wedding to show me this picture of a license plate that she took a photo of. And it was um the license plate was AR-75822. And so like she noticed the 822 first because that's like their anniversary. That was the day they were married, August twenty second yeah And so like her and her you know soon-to-be husband were like looking at it like, A22, that's cool. That's like what caught their attention. like That's our future anniversary. And then they saw like 7-5, and they're like, we're almost exactly seven and a half years apart.
Speaker: um and then they saw the ar and they're like wait hold on his late father his name started with an a and her dad's name started with an r it's like we have our dad's first initials yeah our years apart and then the day we were married and so like that is she was so excited but like we just random license it's just a random who knows it was like a white forerunner or something just totally like random like But like, I get it because I, it took me like an entire year of seeing 777 multiple times on like per day on license plates for me to get it tattooed on my body. so like, I understand the impulse. It's just like to like find the meaning in like numbers and and like letters and and little connections and things like that. I absolutely get it. I wonder how much of that is a neurodivergent thing too. but Yeah, I wonder, because it's like it's so different. like I see things like in my in my half-siblings and and different family members, and it's like, oh, like my dad's not like that, but like my so my half-sister is. Yeah, I love that. That's so cool. Was there any other like similarities that you like thought of, or is that like...
Speaker: There were a lot. There was like, I mean, on the topic of odd, weird ones. So like, I was out in Kansas City back in May because my biological grandfather was a helicopter pilot.
Speaker: oh and He flew in Vietnam. Wow. and eventually he was shot down and lost his life while serving in Vietnam. and like so when i like I've been obsessed with aviation my entire life. like I've always wanted to fly. i was turning things into airplanes. like As a kid, like I would fold up paper wings and tape them to Hot Wheels cars. and I had like these like long like tracks and I just put them at the top of the stairs and I just launch Hot Wheels with wings on them and then watch them fly. and like I would fold all kinds of paper airplanes and like I would I was into like rockets and stuff like launching so like the whole aviation thing I was just obsessed with and I never fully understood why but also like a lot of other boys were interested in like World War II and you know like things like that but for me like I was really attached to Vietnam yeah which is different for like other boys my age and then like when I finally met my my biological father i realized oh
Speaker: my grandfather was an Air Force helicopter pilot who lost his life in Vietnam. And was like, that's crazy. Like how how was that genetic? right like The attachment to Vietnam especially, right? Like obviously like the passion for aviation, but like yeah how am I so into Vietnam? Like that can't possibly have been passed down. right right But somehow like it was. but like So back to the other story again. um So we're in Kansas City because my my biological grandfather is getting a ceremony at um Whiteman Air Force Base where they keep the B-2 bombers.
Speaker: So they they named the street after him. His last name was Ramsey. But like back in the 80s or early 90s when they moved all the B-2 bombers in, they had to like change the infrastructure. So like a lot of the street names were changed to like 4th Street, 5th Street, whatever.
Speaker: And so like my uncle really fought to like get the name restored. And so back in May, like the family went out there for a whole ceremony to like get the name like renamed after him. Oh my god. But like afterward, like after the ceremony, which is really cool, we went out to like a little Mexican restaurant nearby and we're just like chatting and I find out like my uncle and my aunt are both obsessed with movie projectors and big screens. And I'm like, that's Yeah, you literally went to film I went to film school, but also the house that my girlfriend and are in now, I had to find a place with a projector, a room that could accommodate. It had to be 14 feet from the couch to the street. He brought a ruler. Yeah, so I would look for places with a tape measure and stuff and be like, okay, I have have a room that can accommodate
Speaker: 150 inch screen and in this type of projector and whatnot and i've like had a projector for like years ever since college ever since i had like my first place but like to go out to eat and to find out like my aunt and uncle also have movie rooms and they're also obsessed with big screens and projectors i was like there's no way that's genetic like how how did that happen oh that's amazing i love that so much but yeah it's crazy the kind of shit that is actually nature and not nurture like the the like range and the depth of things that that can be nature versus nurture like it's crazy i remember so like when my biological parents like my so my biological call mom christina
Speaker: This has all been talked about on like very old episodes of ours. So like listeners probably are already familiar with some of the information I'm about to like talk about. But like when she found out that I was looking for her and had, you know, given the contact information for her to reach out to me,
Speaker: um She had my full name. Her husband went on Facebook and looked up my Facebook profile. And so he found a photo that I had recently posted. And for some reason, i had been over the like months before i found them, I had been posting a bunch of random like...
Speaker: photos that I had never posted before that had been saved over the last few years and there were a lot of selfies in there and so like somehow like they just were able to see at the top of my like photos feed like a whole bunch of selfies like first and so one of the first photos they find is this photo of me with like my like flat ironed hair and like red lipstick like dark eye makeup and a black leather jacket and Christina looks at this photo and is like that's my child. What?
Speaker: It's so funny the way she described it because like she like you know she intentionally put me up for adoption through Mormon agency so I could end up with a Mormon family and she sort of had in her mind not an expectation but like a an idea that I would be a Molly Mormon.
Speaker: And like the, to then see me visually and like have the realization, Oh, she's not. And of course she's not because I'm not, you know, like, like was a really cool, interesting, like thing for her to realize. And then like, she was still friends with my biological dad at the time. And like, you know, was messaging him to tell him, But I had like reconnected and found them. And ah she sent him this photo of me too. And just like, look at this like little punker chick. Like what did the hell?
Speaker: Like this is our kid. Cause they were both like edgy weirdos in high school. They were in high school together when they, you know, when I was, when I came into the world and One of the things that I thought was the most hilarious story in the world, and especially to find out that I felt explained a lot about me as a person, was that I found out that my biological dad, when they were in high school and they were dating, he, for a little while, tried to convince her that he was a vampire. Whoa.
Speaker: she was just like you're weird but i like you anyway i guess and so it's like of course that couple would have a child that would be me like of course but also things like the fact that she and i both were obsessed with cat bondy like we were just talking about this earlier yeah about reality tv She and I were both huge fans of Kat Von D and her show LA Inc. And we both loved tattoos.
Speaker: We both really loved music, although she didn't get to have like, you know, a lot of like, like training in music, like she was in choir and stuff, but like she didn't really get to study. instruments or anything but she was so excited to know that i had gotten to and that i was like going to school for that too which was pretty fun um and then like other little things like um you mentioned like flavors and food and stuff like she and i both love pickles which is insane like she loves olives and i don't understand it because i fucking hate olives but we both love pickles and we love like a lot of pickled like foods and generally pickled cabbage pickled onions like all the stuff we have like and also like sauerkraut and like that like range of food that's just like stinky like yeah we both she's literally next i think it's next weekend she's going to like a pickle festival oh and she's going probably by herself and i am very excited for her but it was like that kind of thing where it's like how are like we both like it's like it's like don't know i don't think my siblings hated pickles but like they didn't love them the way that i loved them growing up And so I like, it wasn't something I felt super alien about, but it was like, suddenly this like very deep connection that k Christina and I both have, of like, oh, we're like, the same.
Speaker: In a lot of ways, and not not even to mention the fact that we like look practically identical. and like we move the same way gesticulate the same way when we talk like our like intonation is even the same like the bishop who was helping me to connect with her when he spoke to her and then called me the next morning he said like your voices are the same like you intonate the same way and i was like what what does that mean how is that possible i don't get it but like it's the coolest thing in the world to like make all these connections and just sort of suddenly realize like i do have like a real like flesh and bone person that i came from who like is much like me and like understands me
Speaker: And like, we've also talked about the ways in which we've almost like leaned a little too hard on that and not realized the ways in which we are actually quite different. And like, you know, we've had a lot of arguments over things because we thought we would understand, but we ended up not because, you know, we're, we're also very different people because I'm also a lot like my dad and he's a very different person than she is, you know, like there's all sorts of stuff like that, but like, it's a very unique experience to like, especially as like a young adult, to be introduced to all these things that are like so similar in such interesting parallels you would never expect in people who like you never knew until now.
Speaker: Like it's, it's the kind of thing, that's the kind of thing that I feel like people who are raised by their biological parents, I feel like almost miss out on because they like tend to take it for granted. Yeah.
Speaker: They just, think it's just an assumed thing that of course your biological child is going to be similar to you. And you know, you, you never have a chance to differentiate the nature from the nurture in those situations. So, you know, that's one of the instances where I'm like, for all this, the trials that it is to be adopted, to grow up adopted, like that was a cool enough experience for me to be like,
Speaker: I'm okay. I'm all right with it But yeah. Anyway, I've been talking so much. I'm sorry. Why are you apologizing? What am learning so much about you and like, again, about what it is like to be someone who's adopted?
Speaker: i and Well, again, I'm sorry. Keep it rapid. No, please. i invited you to this, so you should speak. Chad, comments.
Speaker: Oh, my God. Yeah, I definitely like agree. As hard as it is, being adopted trying to find your own identity, and especially for me as a curious person and observant, i like like you as well, I think that search for who I am, i think that helped kind of like further develop like my curiosity.
Speaker: Cause I was always, I mean, I've always asked questions. I've always wanted to know why this, why that, but when it's so personal, it's like, you know, and I think people who aren't, and I mean, I don't know, but I would have assume like people who aren't adopted might not have those same questions. Cause it just, like you're saying, I think they take it for granted.
Speaker: yeah And so like, as challenging as it is to kind of like walk that path alone and try to figure out who you are and why you are the way you are, and you know, like I'm grateful for it. Cause the silver lining, you know, the other side of that same coin is like, well now I get, now I have the contrast that I wouldn't otherwise have. right And then like all the little moments that are special where it's like, oh my gosh, your dad does the same thing. Or it's like, oh, oh your mom is that way, right? Like when you realize you have the same gestures or the same intonation, like I've been told that too. And like, I've been told like I, you know, like i like I pace around the house like my dad does or like I do different things like my mom does.
Speaker: Like there was one time, on so I'm really into like motorcycles and so is my birth father. And like I was in like my mom's driveway in San Diego, i was working on my motorcycle And she comes home from something and she sees me working on my bike she's like, you are so Ron. And she keeps seeing it and it's just so funny to be like, oh my gosh, just have even just the little things pointed out and be like, oh, that's cool. That's where that came from. Oh, that's where that came from. It's really nice to be able to of put the pieces together.
Speaker: label them in a way yeah yeah it's like yeah to be able to make it tangible like you know where your identity identity is no longer this like random self-constructed ah abstract concept and it's suddenly like a like i said like a flesh and blood like being you know or multiple where you get to sort of just sort of like yeah like observe and understand like oh that's why i am the way I am about this or that or like you know what have you and you know it's it's really it's it is a special experience for sure and I like it was interesting to like because I you know with the whole like comment about people who were not adopted
Speaker: who probably take that kind of stuff for granted like i was like introduced to my biological family late enough in life that i felt like i was able to be fully present and like self-aware through all of it too where i was like actively in the moment being like this is real this is happening like savor every fucking second because this is you don't get to do this over like you know and I'm like so grateful that i like was in that headspace that I could have that like self-awareness to to like
Speaker: you know, make the most of this experience and, you know, for it to, you know, continue to evolve and transform. And like the way that Christina and I have evolved our relationship where we like better understand each other because we've started to like grasp the ways that we're not the same. and like all of that, like to have like an evolved relationship as opposed to like, I've, I i don't know a whole lot of other adopted people, but like,
Speaker: Anybody that I know who has found biological parent, their biological parents before i'm or have heard of do that happening, like they tend to like fall off a little bit. Like they'll you know have a moment of intensity of like getting to know them. And then like over time, they just sort of stop talking. And it seems to me like you've had the same experience I have had.
Speaker: of like maintaining relationships with these people and like staying caught up and being invited to weddings. And like last year, i went to i've got to meet like all of my biological grandfather's family in Missouri for Thanksgiving. like we road tripped all the way out there. It was a crazy trip. But it was so cool to meet all of these people who I'm biologically related to, who Christina barely knows because her father died when she was 11. And so, like, she never really got to stay super close with them all through her growing up. But she, you know, has gotten closer with them over the last, like, five, six years. um
Speaker: And so, it was like, the opportunity to do that and, like, expand the relationships, that in and of itself is super, super unique. um And I think it's really cool that, like, that's yet another parallel. And it's a huge parallel between us because it's so rare. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: yeah I can definitely like relate to that too because I met my birth biological parents when I was 21 and I think you were 23. So like very very the timing itself was very similar too, but like you said, like's I think it's different as an adult. yeah And as much as I like...
Speaker: longed for it growing up like just wanting a picture just wanting something like wanting to meet or whatever like i think like you're saying when you when it finally does happen because i i've wanted it for so long and like now the fact that i'm a mature like adult um it meant a lot more yeah and so like i remember like some of the earlier things was like going to like my my aunt's wedding you know um and just being in invited i went to like my i think the first event might have actually been like my great grandmother's 90th birthday wow and that's where i met like a lot of my family members on the on my birth mother's side um and that was really cool and seemed like how much both families are so into family and like yeah everyone was like so welcoming and yeah um
Speaker: and so curious and just so grateful that like I had finally been found and that we had been reunited. right. But I think it does totally change your your your perspective and your frame reference win when you do meet your birth parents as an adult. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Because it's like, you know, for all that we both would have been extremely like excited and grateful to have had that opportunity if like it happened when we were teenagers it would have been completely different because we were not like fully formed people yet you know like we didn't have the like you self-awareness to like fully appreciate everything that was happening as it was happening so like I think that that is so cool and unique that like we both got to have that like opportunity to like be fully intellectually present for that experience yeah i love it oh my god okay i don't know do you have any more questions kelsey because like
Speaker: Like, I don't know. I'm curious to know what what else you're curious about. It's just cool to see, like, so many of the parallels. And there are just so many, like, oh, wow. And then, like, insecure Mormon moms. Yeah. You know, like, like, and i can being oldest and, like, you know, loving your siblings but not quite fitting in with them and not quite knowing now. And, you know, like – um you know, unintentional favoritism in the in the sibling dynamics, right? That's yeah not on purpose, but kind of happens. And like, yeah I don't know, it's just, I don't always know the questions to ask because again, i have such a different experience, but
Speaker: And I, again, I feel bad for talking so much during this. No, but you barely talked at all, really. It's about you guys, right? And it, you know, like, um like after George Floyd, we learned like, oh, like sometimes white people just need to shut and listen.
Speaker: And just like sometimes when the experience is not yours, you should just shut up and listen, right? But you don't always know the right questions to ask. So like hearing you two... talk about these things. Like I've heard a lot of stories about, you know, that I've asked you and stuff, but some of these things are like, oh, I didn't, didn't fully know the extent of what you were feeling or thinking. Like,
Speaker: And i don't know, it it just helps me like understand you more, Chad, and like I don't know, just ah hopefully develop more empathy and like love for you. you know as as i mean, I already love you, obviously. But you know what I mean? i just um I like getting to know you better. I like getting to know you better. And it's it's just it's it's special being able to like see you both kind of like unpack this before me and feel like you learn more about both of you. Yeah.
Speaker: See how special you both are. And how weirdly similar. Yeah, it's a little crazy. i mean, are there other things that you feel like were kind of parallel as far as like, like the mother experience or the father experience? Well, the father's probably pretty different given your your dad yeah passing. um But I don't know. Are there other things too that you feel like people don't always understand about your adoption experience?
Speaker: I feel like that's a hard question to answer. I'll give that more thought. But yeah. but if you're parents because i don't I don't know much about your your siblings and your sibling relationships, but I know like I definitely like felt felt different you know from like my sister and like seeing her accomplishments and and seeing how she's so much like my dad, who's like a superhuman. He's just so accomplished. and it's like He works so hard, but it's like everything he does like turns to gold. it's yeah you know like I rarely ever see... Maybe he struggles privately and I just don't see it, but it seems like
Speaker: He's just done so much, like he's started this biotech company and he's developed two drugs. Wow. You know, that saved children's lives with RSV. And it's just like, it's just incredible. And I see like my mom and her accomplishments and I see my sister and it's like, again, like very smart, very talented, worked hard, you know, like good, you know, work ethic, but I'm just like,
Speaker: I look at the job she had from college and it's so different from like what I've had, yeah you know, and I felt very much like a late bloomer or like, like I've had to struggle through so much more. And and I look at like my sister, my you know, she's the middle child and look at my parents and like, we're not cut from the same fabric. I was like, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And trying to like, I don't know, like, I guess like for me, like growing up and just, feeling it's hard to like measure up so I don't I don't know if that was similar for you or what what it was like yeah no it's super interesting like like the way that like our families move through the world versus like the way that we have moved through the world like don't know the way when you were talking about it I was trying to think of like what are the ways that my family has been different from me other than like just feeling different like a lot of them are quite extroverted mm-hmm
Speaker: And like, even if they're quiet, they're still pretty extroverted. And I'm just so not like, which is funny because I have a podcast and that's weird to say that I'm not an extrovert. But like, um you know, I just, I was the kind of person who needed a lot of alone time. hmm.
Speaker: And a lot of like recharge time and like that was never really understood by my family. They were just sort of like Molly's always in her room. Like what's wrong with her? Like, you know, just this weird emo punk kid like hanging out in a room all the time.
Speaker: That's like the most standard experience like for an emo punk kid. But um like to also then sort of, i was like, oh, like you know my biological mom is the same way in a lot of ways. like She's social and personable, but I do feel like she's similar to me and in like regards to needing the recharge time, needing like the time to just sort of be alone in a quiet space and just like, you know, decompress a lot.
Speaker: But also like we have similar health issues and like, you know, it's obviously it's like most health issues are like genetic and stuff. And we have a lot of um immune health issues that are passed through it, with like down and i'm like autoimmune, I mean. And like, those are the kinds of things where like, I was realizing like, oh, like my adoptive family has also had a lot of health issues, like some chronic stuff, some like not chronic, like, but I feel like they, I was about to say it they suffer through it, but no, that's not the right way to phrase that. Like they, they dealt with it a lot differently than I have been able to, or, or like felt like I had to, like, they are very
Speaker: while they're being extroverted, they're very quiet about their health issues. They don't talk about it. They don't complain. Whereas like, again, with Christina and I both like having similar issues, we both really find a lot of like healing and catharsis in being able to like verbally process and talk about things and to like, we sort of have to,
Speaker: make bigger accommodations for ourselves in that way and it's like my mother my adoptive mother would not be caught dead making an accommodation for herself if she needed something she would like rather suffer than put somebody else out to, like, you know, make something more comfortable for herself. That was how she's always been. And I never understood it, but it was, like, the way that I was raised was the expectation to, like, not impose on anybody else and not, like, draw attention to yourself in a way of, like, having extra needs, you know? um Like...
Speaker: you know it was I think that getting to know Christina really helps me to like allow myself to accommodate for any needs, for like whether it's you know pain management or like um energy levels or what have you, like that kind of stuff. It's like, wow, I was so not raised to advocate for myself in those ways.
Speaker: And i think that maybe... I don't know how different it would have been if Christina had raised me, but like, I think I certainly would have felt less, maybe ashamed is the right word about like needing more than the people around me.
Speaker: don't know. It's it's interesting. Um, that dynamic between adoptive families, just like, yeah, the way they move through the world, just being so dramatically different and not understanding, like,
Speaker: how do they do that? like Did you feel too like there was pressure to be like a certain type of good Christian girl too? like I mean, yes, because Mormons. but like Well, your mom was to the nth degree though. She was not typical level.
Speaker: Yeah. um And so I just wonder like the pressure with you guys, well with Chad, was more to be like be the superlative, be highly accomplished in a certain field, right? Yeah. It sounds like for you be be one be molly mormon be molly mormon be extroverted put on a certain image yeah and you guys ah an image too right of success right and you guys an image of of perfection yeah and not needing anything and that's still uh both of you guys are different takes on perfection right in a way yeah yeah i would say so i think so at least but yeah and in particular yeah with that expectation of just like you know
Speaker: the church has these expectations for your life. these church has The church has ah expectations for your yeah your path and your standards and like how you're gonna do things and you know who you're gonna be as a person.
Speaker: Like, yeah, I mean, it's no secret that I threw that away very you know quickly as soon as I understood that I could. sure i was just like, no, I don't want it.
Speaker: I think there is the element of like, you know, being exactly cookie cutter, right? The church, but also like, prosperity gospel too, right? Where like the idea of like, you need to be this accomplished, you know, like like ah like the Marriott family, or you know, you've gotta be like you know like a like a Romney family. you know, there are all these like famous families, right? You gotta measure up to that success in whatever way that looks like, whether it be spiritual or whether it be business-wise. I mean, that's why there are so many, you know, ah LDS people who go into business. Right, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know. right a I think that I may have broken that mold for my family. good for you like i mean you know my brother the next youngest child in the family like he has studied business and he is you know wanting to do that for himself and that's great that's fine but then my next younger brother went to film school also you know and he's also pretty successful too you're saying yeah he's i mean like you know it's it's success is measured so differently in film than in business but like uh you know that he has like
Speaker: felt the comfort at pursuing that. Like, I think that I, again, it's not like I want to necessarily put all of the, like, you know, kudos on myself about that, but it's like, I thought I did break the mold in a way of, like, fuck BYU, I'm going to art school, I'm going to music school, and, like, Did any of them go to BYU?
Speaker: One of them was not accepted, the other two were, so, um, but, like, Yeah, um my brother that went to film school graduated from film school, like, from the film program at BYU, along with his wife, and my sister also graduated from BYU.
Speaker: But, like, point sort of being, like, the the, like, model of success got to be a little bit shifted because i broke off from that.
Speaker: like It's like, I went to Berkeley and that's like a very different school, but it's also just sort of like, it's extremely prestigious. And so like, there is no shame in saying, oh, my daughter went to Berkeley. So like, you know, there's no reason to feel like I was a failure in any way because of that.
Speaker: um And so like, I do feel like my siblings have been granted this opportunity to, pursue what they actually care about rather than what they feel like they're expected to care about even though they are also still all fully fulfilling the like Mormon life path cookie cutter mold um like that they get to just you know have their own experiences that are unique
Speaker: I hope you told them you owe me a thank you. To be honest, I don't really think I fully had that realization until right now. So thank you for helping me have that realization.
Speaker: But it makes sense to me because it's like before that, how likely would it would it have been that my mother would have been comfortable with my brother going to film school? I don't know.
Speaker: Do you feel like you opened the gates at all with some of the ways that you did stuff for Lauren? For your education? Or for your sister or for your brother? I don't think so, because like our our our paths have been so different. like My sister went into, like she studied political science at BU, and then went off into like work on different campaigns and different things of of that nature, and now she's in journalism. So it's like our paths are kind different. And then my other sibling has autism.
Speaker: Right. and Like level three autism, a lot lot more support. Yeah, so think if I would have had maybe other neurotypical um siblings that might have seen me more as a role model, like Molly's sibling saw her, like maybe. but just like, I guess our family dynamic was a little bit different where our past were different in a sense. So like I couldn't really, there wasn't really a mold for me to break. Well, you're...
Speaker: parents were also able to network heavily on behalf of your sister while they weren't able to do that the same degree in your field right yeah when you grew up in dc you know like they had certain connections it certainly helped they were very my sister whereas like yeah for me like i studied communications and in film production right like your brother and so it's like yeah growing up in dc like we don't really that's a little different it's like we don't know and feel you know like the film industry is very much about who you know Right. Your sister wouldn't have had the opportunity she did if it weren't for your parents things have having put in the effort to network as much as they had over the years. Yeah, because growing up, like, their best friends were, like, yeah they worked in, you know, for different congresspeople and their ambassadors and, you know, we were having people over for dinner, like, oh you know, and so I guess, like, that's a good point, Kelsey. Yeah, yeah that is a good point.
Speaker: I hope you don't take any of that, like, oh, man, my sister's so accomplished. Like, she's great. I like your sister a lot, actually. but it's not fully of her own accord because there are plenty of people who are really talented out there who never get a shot right and there are plenty of people who are very mediocre who have a rich daddy who knows people yeah yeah that's true a lot of it's really who you know yeah and that's i mean that like that is inherently true about like politics and in that world for sure so it makes sense to me yeah but yeah cool
Speaker: can't think of any other questions cool I appreciate tons of content ah is this too long no you guys late dot this is perfect like we always hover around an hour okay but we sometimes go down to like 45 minutes or up to like I mean our longest episode was like two hours 45 minutes I've noticed that most of your episodes are around an hour but I don't how long you're recording for and how much it shrinks and like I'm always in the back of my mind thinking of like, okay, what's the actual publishable content that we have? And so I'm not ever thinking about like, like how much in total have we recorded, but how much of this is usable. And so we definitely have tons of usable material. So yeah.
Speaker: a completely unrelated topic that I thought about maybe the two of you discussing or all three of us discussing but you can also be like Kelsey I am tired no I'm closing the computer so I hope you're comfortable telling me no sure are you comfortable telling me no think verbal yeses from both of you I'm fine with you know another question have you got well it was a whole new topic okay I don't know how much more time I can spend but we can spend a little time okay okay well the idea of um just because i know his dad has done a lot of research on faith crises and then leaving the church and stuff okay um um i don't know how much you even know about what he studied but talking up a little bit i'm curious to hear more about like your your when you kind of went through that faith crisis and decided you know what i think there's no longer for me how that kind of relates to like the stuff that your family's been involved in and stuff but that's also
Speaker: Like, Kelsey, we already have a full episode. stuff So feel free to be like, you know what? Not today. No, but it's kind of cool. um Like, so the interesting thing is that, like, I feel like what I experienced was like barely a faith crisis because, to be quite honest, and this is a little, this is something that doesn't quite.
Speaker: it it seems to be an unexpected thing for me to say to people who grew up with me, but I never felt like I really wanted to be in the church. Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Cause I, and I guess it was all from your mom that pressure to live up to that. My mom and also just the the culture. Yeah. Cause you always seemed very like, um, like this good little Christian girl, you know what mean? Yeah. That was very much like how how I felt I had to be. Oh, interesting. To be safe. like, and that's the unfortunate thing about the church is the way that it doesn't really give a lot of room for like questioning or doubting or like thinking differently or feeling differently about anything. at least the, you know, the version of the church that I was raised in, um, like, um,
Speaker: That was my understanding of it. And was just like, oh, so it's not safe to not want to be here. so I have to pretend that I want to be here if i want to be safe. I have no idea. I'm so sorry. no this is not something for anybody to apologize about. This is simply a reality of my life. It's just something that's so jarring because I was a very convincing actor when I was growing up. But that must have been really hard.
Speaker: um Or at least isolating. it Yes, but also it was the kind of thing or i don't think I fully came into a complete awareness of it until I was approaching college age.
Speaker: You know, like, especially when I got to BYU and fully realized like, oh, this is like the rest of my life. oh, I don't want this to be the rest of my life.
Speaker: Okay. Like, you know, when I, when I grew into or an age where i was like fully grasping like the scope of lifetime sure and being like, oh no, no, I don't, no, no, no. and This is not how I want to spend my life. You know, it's like when you're a kid, you're just sort of like, whatever, like this is just how it is. And we had like a group, a great group of friends when we were growing up. And it was like people who were, you know, for, even within the church, like still being extremely down to earth a lot of the time. And so like, I felt like quite comfortable in that. i felt like that was a little bit of like a, like buffer for me against like some of the harsh realities of the way that a lot of Mormon communities can be. Sure. um And so like, I was really fortunate in that regard. And I was really fortunate to have the same kind of dynamic, in my friend group when I was a freshman at BYU. And then when I was a sophomore at BYU was when things got different. And I was just like, you know what? No, I don't think this is like, you know, I, I sort of had to have like a little bit of like a, like a, a logic untangle in my mind. where you know what I finally came to was the realization of like all my life I've been taught about agency. And if agency is a real thing, then I truly do have the agency to choose to leave.
Speaker: And once I realized like that was the rule that like was actually gonna set me free, I was like, oh, okay, I'm done. And so like, I didn't really have like a crisis of like, wow like, oh no, like all this stuff that I'm finding out about that I didn't like, you know, the way that a lot of ex-Mormons have, you know, and I found out about all that stuff after the fact.
Speaker: Oh, interesting. Yeah. And so like, but I also, it was just sort of like a, okay, so like I was justified in, you know, deciding this wasn't for me. um think Okay, that's fine. But it was like inconsequential by that point. I was already settled and decided on, I didn't want to be a part of it anymore.
Speaker: But like, yeah, it was, it was more of a mental health crisis than a faith crisis at the time. I could definitely tell that at the time that there was a lot of mental health. Yeah. For anybody who's listening who we didn't fully cover the, like we talked about like the ways that our lives have overlapped in like interesting ways and like the parts of our lives and the phases of our lives that we've like been there for each other.
Speaker: um for the listeners, just so they're aware. um Kelsey has been present for a lot of the like, deeper, darker, more challenging parts of my life.
Speaker: and some of the, like, really cool, interesting parts of my life, too. But, like, in particular, you know, you were around when my dad died, and when he, also when he was sick and, you know, diagnosed and getting progressively worse. But also, you were around when I was in this mental health crisis and this, for lack of a better term, faith crisis, you know, deciding to leave the church. You were there with me and, like, very, very intentionally present with me through the difficult Sundays where I like couldn't bring myself to walk into the chapel, you know, and you were always like steadily
Speaker: by my side through all of that. And then she was also around when I found k Christina for the first time. And, you know, you were the person that I went to like the weekend that I first was connected with them. And I went over to your apartment and I just remember just sort of like needing to like verbal vomit and process at you. Like, oh my God, this is happening.
Speaker: It was crazy. It was so cool. And it was just like, yeah, like again, one of the reasons why I feel like we're like in a soul pod and like, you know, the, the things that we are not going to get into, but like the stuff that you've told me about that you felt like I was like present and and helpful for you at like some of those like concurrent like times. Thank you. We're not saying what they are. Yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker: But it's just like, you know, it's, it's too exact and too perfect to not, to, to be coincidence, you know? yeah,
Speaker: Like, definitely, like, you know, that's part of the reason why, like, you could say, like, oh, you you saw that in me, like, the the mental health crisis and stuff, like, it's because you had a front row seat to my, like, melting down.
Speaker: Which, you know, admittedly, like, it wasn't like I was crying all the time, necessarily. no. But, you know, I just had a lot of, like, really intense stuff to talk about lot. And so... It was a tough time.
Speaker: Yeah. It was tough time. Yeah. But yeah, don't know. that's That's kind of it. Like, it's a little bit of an anticlimactic answer, because there's, like, not really a faith crisis, just sort of like a, oh, I don't have to do this? Okay, I'm not to do it. But it sounds like there's... Maybe crisis isn't right word, but yeah this... this kind of low level boil, just kind of constantly on the back burner. Yeah. And it was more, again, i I'm trying to think a word that isn't crisis. Cause it, but like,
Speaker: I'm going use because I don't have a better word. Go ahead. It's fine. But more like like an identity. Instead of a a faith shift, an identity shift of, I can finally be myself. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's what I'm hearing right now. Right. Is that right? Yeah. I would say so. And interestingly, that phase of my life is also when I was introduced to Kat Von D and L.A. Inc. And like that's why i like felt so strongly about like really liking the way that she expressed herself and the way that she... like um you know just sort of made her own way in the world sure and like you know i was really inspired by all of that and so like it's sort of you know perfect the way that that lined up where i just like oh okay like not like i fully identified myself with like i'm gonna be just like her but more so like oh like people get to do this and's so like i'm gonna just sort of let myself be who i am and not have
Speaker: any like just not care what anybody else thinks about it um it was like the perfect opportunity for me to like start from scratch in that way or to sort of pick up the pieces because i i've always been who i am even if i couldn't you know feel safe like fully expressing it so you knew that deep down that yeah right right exactly yeah i just love you girl You get real all emotional. Oh my God. Do you need a tissue? There's a tissue over on the kind coffee table behind the. No, I want want to get your furniture wet actually. Oh, okay. Perfect.
Speaker: thank you though. Like that's like a really interesting question to have. And I like it. Well, thank you for letting me unnecessarily add another topic and extend your podcast way too long. And you can cut out all of this, I guess. No, i no, it's good. It's good.
Speaker: I just had to talk more. see you It is a lot of fun. It is a lot of fun. I really had to, I know I interjected more than I wanted to. Oh, push pause. Well, more than I wish I had because I wanted to be like, and then also, you know, the ADHD need to interrupt all the time. Absolutely. I get it. Chad, thank you also for being willing to talk about this. yeah I recognize like,
Speaker: again he's heard me talk about you a lot but to be like oh someone you still have never met i've spoken to and like right being willing to share things that are so intimate right and like i know that you're usually like the really like supportive listener type but it meant a lot to me to be able to hear additional details about your story and about like what your experiences have Yeah. And this has been a cool, like unexpected treat to be able to like fully just sort of be like, Oh my God, we had the same experiences. What? So yeah. Thank you for being willing to like open up and talk about it.
Speaker: I really, really appreciate it. Both of you. i really appreciate And I especially appreciate you like wanting it to happen. Like as much as you were like, please don't let me take over your podcast. Like I'm glad that you suggested because it's fucking brilliant. And I'm glad that it worked out this way. yeah.
Speaker: I hope you both felt more seen. For sure. For sure. Yeah, I know. I'm really grateful it worked out too. And I'm glad that like you, yeah, the Kelsey, that you, you know, wanted this to happen. And I've heard about you, Molly. Yeah. Like, I've been looking forward to this because like, I've, i don't know what your experience has been like, but I've met other people who are adopted. I've met people who have and have not met their birth parents. Yeah.
Speaker: But like, I've never met anyone who like grew up LDS, who went through the kind of the same process, who met their birth parents at the same age, who have kind of similar like relationships with their mothers, who have been kind of challenging. and like yeah all these different things. And so like, for me, like it's been, it's like very validating, very meaningful to like, finally like, Oh my gosh, there's someone else who has like a almost identical, like, you know, yeah very similar experience. Like, yeah, like I'm not alone. Like I can talk to someone who finally gets it. Cause like no one else really does. And yeah.
Speaker: So I'm very appreciative. what Like, Yeah, me too. Someone who, like, really, like... Who gets it. Who really gets it. You can understand me. You know, like Kelsey's been great. She's so empathetic and so wonderful. You really, really are. She's very sensitive, and I feel so loved and supported by her. I'm so glad. But at the same time, there's only, like, so much that, that like, she can do. yeah You know? Yeah. And so, like, it's it's been great. So i really appreciate this opportunity. This is amazing. And this chance to chat.
Speaker: Yeah. In other words, he and I are going to fight over you for your own ouch. Ah! Listen, I also just sort of want to get on a little bit of a sentimental soapbox too, though, because you have been such an important person to me for so much of my life. And to be able to, like, fully witness this, like, person who is so loving and supportive of you through, like, all of the things that you, you know, feel like are, you know, immense challenges for you, that he's just so, like...
Speaker: there for you and so kind and supportive it and like wanting you to feel the best you can about yourself in any given situation like thank you for being so good to her because she deserves it And like to to know and like get a firsthand like account um and experience and witness of like how good you treat her.
Speaker: Like I'm just like, okay, you guys are good. I approve. You're good. I love Bobby so much. He is amazing. And so are you, Molly.
Speaker: uh well this love fest has been so fun but my throat is quite dry i am so smart we can finally on this episode but whoever is still listening the thing is we've been talking like the whole time even before we were recording it's just like this is just the byproduct of like getting to have friends around so you know what we can pause we can watch a movie yeah Oh my god. But yes, thank you so much for listening to our podcast. We're having so much fun here and we're so grateful that you listened support us. And yeah, we'll be back next week.
Speaker: I have no idea when this will be published, so good luck. But also, we'll be back next week. Bye!
Speaker: yeah I'm going to say something and you can edit this part out. And edit back it. Oh my God. I love it. Sorry. Yeah. I do think I'm cutting you off again. I'll stop. No, no, no. Say what you were going say. Nope. You answer first. i know I'm the president of this podcast and I say, you must say what you going to say Well, have to pee anyways. I'd rather not do it on your furniture. So I'm going to get up and let you answer. And then I'm going to, then you'll quickly summarize it for me when I get back. okay as sure and And then I will interject myself. I'm, Learning to be better, mom. um okay
