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E22 - Urmi Sengupta, Senior Impact Investments Officer at MacArthur Foundation (USA)
71 Plays13 days ago
What if the capital we need most is the kind that stays where others won’t? In this episode, Urmi Sengupta from the MacArthur Foundation explains catalytic capital, patient, flexible, and risk-tolerant funding designed to go where traditional investors won’t. We explore how this capital can seed innovation, sustain essential services like affordable housing, and scale solutions in climate and small business finance that otherwise wouldn’t happen. Urmi shares how the Catalytic Capital Consortium is mobilizing hundreds of millions of dollars while bringing funders together in partnership. Urmi shares why collaboration is more costly, yet more powerful. Why community voices must shape investment decisions. And why foundations must move from isolated funding to collective system change. This conversation is a powerful reminder that finance is not neutral. It can exclude or it can include. And perhaps most importantly: change doesn’t require perfect solutions. It requires action.
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You can also:
- Visit our website: womenchangingfinance.org
- Follow Urmi on LinkedIn
To go further, here are some of the references mentioned during the episode:
- MacArthur Foundation — https://www.macfound.org
- Catalytic Capital Consortium (C3)— https://catalyticcapitalconsortium.org/research-learning/
- Rockefeller Foundation — https://www.rockefellerfoundation.org
- Omidyar Network — https://omidyar.com
- GroundBreak Coalition — https://groundbreakcoalition.org/
- Invest Appalachia — https://investappalachia.org
- Chicago Trend - https://www.chicagotrend.com/
- Mission Investors Exchange — https://missioninvestors.org
- GSG Impact — https://gsgimpact.org
- CapitalPlus Exchange —https://capplus.org
- Tideline - https://tideline.com/
- Half of a Yellow Sun, Americanah and Dream Count by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie — https://www.chimamanda.com/book/
Women Changing Finance is part of the Impact Alpha Podcast Network.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:04
Speaker
Hi, welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance, where you will discover amazing women from all around the world who are making finance become a force for good.
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance. I'm Krisztina Tora and I'm welcoming today Urmi Sengupta, who is Field Support Manager and Senior Impact Investments Officer at the MacArthur Foundation.
00:00:33
Speaker
Her focus there is on grant making and investing for field building and collaborative activities to support increased investor awareness and participation in impact investing. She also plays a critical role within the Catalytic Capital Consortium Initiative, otherwise called C3.
00:00:50
Speaker
Urmi, it's been a real pleasure to know you, and you have been a really wonderful, thoughtful founder for so many system-changing initiatives in the impact space. So it's truly wonderful to have you on the show today. Thank you for joining.
MacArthur Foundation's Mission and Investment Strategy
00:01:04
Speaker
and my first question is quite simple.
00:01:08
Speaker
Could you describe your work at the MacArthur Foundation for those who maybe don't know so well the organization? Thank you, Krisztina. And it's a pleasure an honor to be here. i followed your journey in the years I've known you and really admire your contributions within our field as well. And I'm so excited for this opportunity to talk about my work and my journey in the field of impact investing.
00:01:32
Speaker
So MacArthur Foundation is based in the U.S. and Our primary goal is too is focused on really helping build a peaceful, just, and burdened world. Within that frame, my team at Impact Investments, of course, focuses on the issue of capital with a social mission,
00:01:52
Speaker
sort of front and center. We see ourselves as contributors within the spectrum of capital actors and renew all the way from commercial investments to grant making. And our focus is on catalytic capital, which ah tends to be flexible, patient and risk tolerant.
00:02:10
Speaker
We invest in funds and projects that spur inclusive economic growth, contribute to solutions in the crisis and advance equity and inclusion. We've committed a little over $800 million in the last four decades of the Impact Investment Team's work, and we've partnered with over 200 organizations during this time.
00:02:29
Speaker
And our work is structured a little bit with two primary focus areas. The one, we support the theory of change of program priorities and groups, where ah we see how impact investments fit with fits within the larger grant-making strategy and is able to really support the goals within that theory of change and and set of objectives that are identified. We also do a significant amount of work as field support where we see ourselves being able to help build out the field of impact investing with a focus on bringing more investors to the table in addressing the challenging and intractable issues that face our times.
00:03:09
Speaker
So maybe I'll i'll stop there. Great. And can you illustrate each of these areas? So maybe one investment and one grant or maybe something about impact investment and and field building?
00:03:22
Speaker
Yes. So on the investment side, we tend to, of course, be supportive of what programmatic work is. I'll take one of our field building initiatives, who' which is the Catalytic Capital Consortium, to illustrate both the investment and the grant making piece, because I think that's an interesting initiative from that perspective. We tend to look at our investment opportunities with a focus on additionality and capital mobilization, as well as systemic impact. you know we can We can delve a little bit deeper into these. Within the Catalytic Capital Consortium frame, we wanted to develop this investment learning and market development initiatives. that really focuses on greater and more effective use of catalytic capital to enable a more just, equitable, and resilient world.
00:04:07
Speaker
And we did this ah through focusing on changing the awareness, understanding of the power of catalytic capital and its use. so that we can really pave the way for scale deployment in multiple fields across the world. How this has unfolded is that we have an investment component which under which capital was deployed by MacArthur Foundation, about $123 million across 12 different
Partnerships and Collaborative Efforts in Impact Investing
00:04:33
Speaker
efforts. These are all powerful demonstrations of how catalytic capital can help address social issues and and create change across the world. These range from funds,
00:04:44
Speaker
in sectors from health all the way to climate. On the other side, we also looked at setting up a grant-making collaboration along with peer funders, where we have tried to roll out different ecosystem activities that enable investors to engage better with catalytic capital and really get to the end of increased deployment down the road.
00:05:09
Speaker
I love look at the Catalytic Capital Consortium's work. I think it's a very, very pioneering organization and and the work that you're doing there is quite fantastic. I have so many questions around it, but perhaps one interesting dimension that you just said is about partnerships.
00:05:27
Speaker
So it's not just the MacArthur Foundation doing this work, right? And you've brought on so many other organizations with you to this effort. Can you say more about this approach that as a foundation you have work in partnership with others?
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Krisztina. I think that partnership and collaboration really sits at the heart of everything that I think can be powerful, longstanding, and replicable, right?
00:05:53
Speaker
So there is a lot of value to being thoughtful about partnering and collaboration. We partner with peer funders and investors. We also partner with other organizations that are doing field building work. And this whole, I think, set of exercises has really shown us how useful and far-reaching it can be to work in partnership. So a few examples, maybe, or a couple of examples, let's say.
00:06:19
Speaker
One is that for the Catalytic Capital Consortium, we started the grant-making work really in partnership with Rockefeller Foundation and Omidya r about five years ago, six years ago in 2017. And we were hoping to wrap up the initial mandate of work in about three or four years.
00:06:36
Speaker
When we got to that point, there was so much momentum in the field and such interest in keeping some of these field building conversations and efforts going, in particular in helping build a community of practice amongst catalytic capital providers that we started exploring a second
Community Engagement and Governance in Investments
00:06:52
Speaker
phase. And at the end of last year, we launched the second phase with 10 new funders that have joined us now.
00:06:58
Speaker
So this is, I think, testament to the power and opportunity that there is in being able to bring others along and to have that collective journey inform what others in the field can learn and do, right? So I think that's one example On the other side, I would say we tend to also partner with investors in our own own transactions that we take on through our impact investing work. And there we see some very, very interesting models.
00:07:27
Speaker
I'll just mention a couple of things. One, i think where we've partnered with other funders and investors is with the Groundbreak Coalition, which is an effort in Minneapolis that really aims to unlock community or capital towards community-identified investments. And it aims to provide guarantees, grants, and low-cost patient capital, hoping to unlock about $3 for every dollar of catalytic capital invested. The whole structure is hoping to mobilize $5.3 billion in a combination of market rate catalytic and philanthropic capital over 10 years to help close racial wealth gaps. in the area. And and they have very, very ambitious goals of new homeownership, commercial developments, and entrepreneurs being able to facilitate job creation happening. So that's sort of with other findings. I think another phase where we see collaboration and community engagement happening is in the structures of these investments, right? So we have seen that
00:08:26
Speaker
the lived experience and local community voice can play very, very meaningful role in the design, governance, and implementation of these projects. For example, we see investments like the ones we've made in Invest Appalachia, also in Groundbreak Coalition, where input is provided into the design and thinking about ecosystem-wide needs. A second example is when different structures. you know We've invested in the Afterglow Climate Justice Fund, which has set up a community advisory board that helps with governance and decision-making during the life of the fund. and Another set of examples is structures that led
00:09:04
Speaker
Retail investors participate in local community investment projects. at One of MacArthur's investors, Chicago Trend, has set up a structure where it employs a community investment vehicle, which is a crowdsourcing model essentially that enables individuals to invest small sums of capital in real estate assets.
00:09:24
Speaker
acquired by the fund. So these are sort of some different models of collaboration and engagement.
Best Practices and Challenges in Collaboration
00:09:30
Speaker
And I think we see the biggest power of our capital coming through when we are able to engage with all the actors that can influence outcomes in a meaningful way in a given scenario.
00:09:42
Speaker
And maybe that talks a little to also the systems approach. Yeah, I really enjoy these examples because you you show how you're including the communities that are affected by how to say part of the process. of the investments in the decision-making, in the governance. Perhaps do you have, I mean, before we move on to the next question, do you have any, I don't know, recommendations or learnings or best practices that you would like to see more of in how philanthropies or impact investors really work with communities and and the people affected by the decisions or their investments.
00:10:22
Speaker
You are kind of at the forefront already of the thinking, but how do you see those examples or best practices spreading or how would you see or would you like to see that happen? Yeah, that's an interesting question, Krisztina. I think ah some of it is kind of evident from the structures. I think some of the consistent threads we see for success here is to have open and transparent dialogue along the way, not just at the very end. Engagement has to be real tangible and meaningful. At the same time, I think it's also important to help all the stakeholders in a given situation allow and share what their sort of shared vision and goals for the work and effort are because that is what helps define how different stakeholders will engage and what they're in a position to do or not do in that joint decision making process, right? So I think
00:11:14
Speaker
Both being mindful about ah casting a wide net in terms of making sure all voices are heard. And at the same time, being, I think, thoughtful and pragmatic in helping the group work towards viable solutions is very important. I think collaboration is always more expensive than doing it alone. But I think it also takes you much, much further. And that's a great point. And oftentimes something that, you know, investors might be reluctant to do because of the cost implications.
00:11:45
Speaker
How do you see what mitigations measures are they to help investors really kind of take all kinds of stakeholders into account, all voices into account, and also not just cons consult them, but really work with them.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, and i you know and I will speak to this just from my general experience and what I'm seeing in the field. I don't know that I've done a deep analysis of this point, so i I start with that caveat. I think that Where we have seen success is when there is structure around the engagement and there is transparent intentionality, right? So I think both those factors are really important.
00:12:22
Speaker
And in fact, one of the early activities we took on with the Catalytic Capital Consortium was to create a cohort of learning labs amongst investors to talk about Catalytic Capital investments they had made with input from Catalytic Capital fund managers who talked about how they had really engaged with investors and where they found that challenging and where they had that had gone better than they expected and how investors as a community could help serve the needs of social and environmental investment more effectively, right? In that conversation, i think, of course, we came across many, many learnings and reflections that are relevant for those who are doing this work on the ground. But I think a consistent thread was to be sort of more thoughtful about your engagement, and always look inwards as well in terms of what we can do differently in our own organizations without really compromising on the things that are important, right? Where is there room to be more efficient? Where is there room to be a more communicative?
00:13:26
Speaker
Where is there room to collaborate with others so that we're not duplicating work? And those are all sort of important considerations. I think that can significantly change the both nature of the engagement between different actors in the process as well as the outcomes, right? So we ended up publishing three guidance notes for investors coming up with those learning labs. And those, I think, really resonated broadly with the community. Of course, it was also community sourced. So everybody had ownership. That's another example of the same principle at work. But I think the more we can give voice to what people know, learn and want to do, the more I think all of us can see results.
Understanding Catalytic Capital
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
00:14:08
Speaker
So moving kind of to this question of system change, you've said that philanthropy can catalytic. You are really very involved in this catalytic capital consortium and you have taken this as an example. So perhaps maybe just taking a very short step back, catalytic capital, as you described it, is quite new, actually. Can you just go back and give a definition of what it is and why it's so important? And also then kind of reflect on...
00:14:37
Speaker
Why is it contributing to changing the system or how is it contributing to changing the system and the norms or or the behaviors and how you see the the first investments or or grants that you have made with the Catalytic Capital Consortium contributing to that in the short, medium and or long term?
00:14:59
Speaker
k Krisztina that answer could be like hours of conversation, but I'll try to sort of pick up, I think, what is front and center and interesting to share. I think just for the definition, I would say, you know, catalytic capital is defined. We work with Tideline at the time of launching C3, really, to develop this definition. And I have one more thing to say about the definition and the newness of catalytic capital, but in a moment.
00:15:24
Speaker
So catalytic capital is defined as debt, equity, guarantees, and other investments that accept disproportionate risk and or concessionary returns relative to a conventional investment. And in order to generate positive impact and enable third-party investment that otherwise would not be possible. So that's where the definition is. And you know we'll break it down a little bit. But I would start by saying that I think, Krisztina there are sort of two things to note about catalytic capital. And I think the way C3 has resonated with the impact investing community. One, this is not new. This is exactly the work that MacArthur has been doing for 40 years and others have been doing for even longer, right?
00:16:06
Speaker
So this is not at all new. I think what is new is the name. And the reason it resonates is because people see it as something that they know, understand and do. And I think the second reason that it resonates is that it gives people a like sort of some language to present their work. Because there is an impact investing if you've been here for as long as I have and probably as long as you have too.
00:16:32
Speaker
You will always come across these skeptics in the conversation around Oh, this is, you know, you want to sort of camouflage poor performance and sort of lack of efficiency by providing concessional finance. And and there is a whole sort of set of ideas that go around And this sidesteps the issue that conventional markets do work for the majority of the areas where catalytic capital has tried to be impactful, right? And these are markets where you need somebody who's thinking about the impact, who's willing to take on terms that are different from conventional money and commercial sources.
00:17:11
Speaker
in order for those investments to happen, in order for that scale to be created, sometimes in order for the demonstration to happen so that down the road commercial actors can come right? So our focus is on creating value and impact that would not otherwise have happened and where pathways are being created for more investors to come in down the road or alongside in a blended transaction sometimes, right? So That's the focus. And this is something that, you know, when we started it, our idea was that the need for this kind of patient money is significant and it needs to be are recognized in the field, even as we were talking more and more of mainstreaming and impact investing and allowing patients.
00:17:55
Speaker
a range of different investments and actors to engage with impact investing's goals, right? So I think all of that is fine because we want this to be as inclusive as possible without losing the fact that you have to bring a commitment to impact and an appetite and a different appetite for risk in order to facilitate some of these harder to reach ah situations. you know We've talked about catalytic capital having three different roles, seeding, sustaining, and scaling. i mean, seeding and scaling are a little self-explanatory. I won't go into that. But sustaining is use of catalytic capital really defines for us situations where market rate money is not going to cut it. You need ongoing subsidy. We think of about affordable housing, some elements of financial inclusion, There are other services where you will need to have some degree of support for these services to be provided. And, and you know, there is understanding that these services do need to be provided. They cannot be left to the markets to be designed and delivered.
00:19:00
Speaker
So I think that's sort of part of the learning and where catalytic capital and C3's work really is systems oriented is thinking about what is the role for catalytic capital? When do you bring it in? How much is enough? When are you not trying to crowd out other sources of money, right? So all those considerations have to go into a catalytic capital strategy for an investor, as well as how they're then deploying that catalytic capital across specific use cases. So having a lens of what the capital gaps are, we start this whole process with an understanding of capital gaps and know we kind of say those can be population reaching difficult places, challenging geographies, innovation, early stage, certain business models.
00:19:44
Speaker
and then flexibility when there is crisis and we call that resilience. So these are sort of the underlying capital gaps, which make it hard for investment to happen in these situations. And that's where galactic capital comes in.
00:19:56
Speaker
So it's very much a systems frame of approaching the investment opportunity. And in practice, we find, you know, Krisztina the colleagues that are are peer funders and investors in this space and and because of whom really C3 exists and has meaning, they all bring a much more thoughtful systems lens to their own investments. You know, when you're making investment in an SME fund,
00:20:20
Speaker
You're not just thinking about that fund, you're thinking about the context, who are the other actors, who will come in after you, what are you moving the SME fund towards, how are they working with their entrepreneurs.
Philanthropy's Role in System Change
00:20:30
Speaker
And so there is a whole range of questions that go alongside responsible catalytic capital investment that I think just is situated entirely in this systems framework. Thank you for describing it so, so, so clearly. I love what all of the kind of very thoughtful aspects that you have described along the different points of decision in the value chain. Maybe one question on I guess, the role of philanthropy, because if we listen to you, we think that all foundations are working in the same way and we have what we need to create system change.
00:21:07
Speaker
But unfortunately, it's not quite the case. You're among a group of very progressive funders. How do you help other foundations or what kinds of advice would you say to other foundations out there, maybe on other continents, to help them kind of think about system change, to help them kind of get on the journey that you have been on as a foundation for so much time, you know, doing both.
00:21:33
Speaker
You have been doing mission-related investments and program-related investments. Perhaps actually you can touch on that if you want. But but more more importantly, how do we help other foundations and the financial sector to get on this catalytic system change journey?
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, Krisztina, that's an interesting question. and And thank you for your very kind and generous description of ah where MacArthur is and what we have tried to do. I would say that I think we have many, many peers who all strive to help to build out the field. This is a very conscious effort by, i think, philanthropic actors that have been around for longer than others may in some cases. And I think there's a variety of ways in which all of us can help focus on that aspect of bringing the field along. By no means are we the experts on everything we do, right? So we definitely turn to our peers and others who have expertise, who are experience in different parts of the work that our team touches and our organization touches. Debra Schwartz others who are leaders and ah at the foundation have been and continue to do a lot of outreach to our peers. Debra Schwartz serves on the board of Mission Investors Exchange, which is the network for foundations and primarily in the US, but a little bit beyond as well.
00:22:54
Speaker
And, you know, through those activities, we try to provide input. We also do support several of the impact investing networks ah through our grant and field building efforts because we believe they are all well positioned to take sort of the pure engagement, knowledge, building and dialogue components of this work much broader and deeper than we could
Global Collaboration and Investor Engagement
00:23:19
Speaker
individually do. Right. So those are some of the things that we try to do when we ah launched C3 because we did a global curated sort of investment for applications for the curated, sorry, call for applications.
00:23:32
Speaker
For the investment opportunities, we received requests from over 100 actors across the world in different sectors and regions. By no means was MacArthur an expert in all of these.
00:23:45
Speaker
So we really looked to other investors who were active in those markets and understood these opportunities. opportunities and And we requested that our partners have relationships and investments from some of those experts in order for us to come in and support them. So, you know, by doing this, we were able to leverage the expertise and experience of others and at the same time showcase the powerful contributions of Catalytic capital.
00:24:11
Speaker
So I think working in concert with others, we tend to see results go much further. And C3 is, of course, a prime example of that. I think the other piece that I would also say is that we are in both very challenging times and very promising times today. We see interest in engaging with catalytic capital and the need me to address the big societal and you know environmental and social impact problems around us from all quarters.
00:24:43
Speaker
We see family offices and family foundations develop huge amount of interest and action really in multiple areas where there are gaps and needs right now. Capital capital is very visible in you know in climate, in SME finances are two areas that you know a lot of lot about. And I think that we are seeing such interest from a range of different private investors in the space that we are really enthused and hope that all of us collectively can take advantage of that interest.
00:25:15
Speaker
And then the last thing I would say is that you know organizations like the GSG that then convene leaders in different countries and regions play a very important role, right? Because then you are taking the conversation further and helping us bridge those gaps to other markets where we are not ever going to go directly talk to an impact investing leader on our own, right? Because that connection does not really exist at this point.
00:25:39
Speaker
So I think there is a need for all of us to work in concert with each other, be as complimentary as we can, and then build on each other's work. That's brilliant. And I definitely love this approach.
00:25:52
Speaker
I have to ask you a question because I think that that's something of interest for the audience. There are so many incredible organizations doing so many different things out there.
Urmi's Personal Journey and Career Path
00:26:03
Speaker
How do you make decisions?
00:26:05
Speaker
How do you see your role? How do you basically select organizations that you want to support? Yeah, thank you, Krisztina. I mean, i kind of want to start that answer with acknowledging the fact that the number of impressive, effective organizations that are doing really meaningful work that can create far-reaching impact, far, far, far outnumbers what we can support. right And even the ones we pick, we support them for a short while. It is not that we're supporting them for eternity. So it is a very tough situation. We tend to sort of think about ah sourcing really as something that is linked to the strategies. for the investments as well as for the grant making some of the bodies of work, we invited proposals.
00:26:52
Speaker
In some cases, we do direct outreach. In some others, we will do an ah RFP because we kind of really don't know the lay of the land. right So the way that we source follows the needs of the underlying theory of change and the impact we're trying to create. And in in many cases, the underlying capital gaps that are being addressed, because you know that dictates then who the actors are, where the gaps are, and and what we're trying to mobilize. Sometimes it's a function of these are the cohorts of actors that we're trying to mobilize in addressing this problem. So we try to do more outreach to those communities and cohorts.
00:27:27
Speaker
So it's a mix. What I do want to say is that, you know, we're deeply appreciative of the work that people around us do, even in the midst of all the intractable challenges we see come up that Impact Investing is trying to address in different parts of the world. It is so inspiring.
00:27:43
Speaker
to see the work of communities, individuals, and groups in trying to sort of battle these issues and create sustainable change, right? I think people have very creative ways of addressing problems and creating solutions. And we are always learning from what we see around us. I love that because, of course, we're living in very challenging times and there is no debating that.
00:28:10
Speaker
But I really like that you have this very positive outlook from your perspective of seeing the communities and the work happening and that that really is creating change and and that is happening.
00:28:23
Speaker
I love that and and the optimism behind that. And it also says a lot about about you, about your passion for impact, for field building, which the combination of both is is rare and therefore precious.
00:28:37
Speaker
Can you tell us about your journey and how you got here? Yeah, Krisztina, I think that all of us through the course of our careers gravitated more and more towards the things that we feel we are best positioned to do And where I think we get the greatest satisfaction.
00:28:54
Speaker
So I think my journey has been very much along the lines of that sort of arc. I started out doing an MBA and I worked in banking in India for a few years, quickly decided that sort of vanilla banking had its role in place. And I work with bankers all the time. So I should not say more, but I think that I was really interested in having a slightly different frame. And that led me to the US to do a master's in public policy, from which then I went into working with a ShoreBank entity. ShoreBank is the oldest company
00:29:29
Speaker
CDFI was, the oldest CDFI does not exist as Shorebank anymore, set up several decades ago with the idea that we would be able to create access to finance for underserved communities within the U.S. And I worked with an international group associated with Shurebank that looked at creating financial access with microfinance and SME finance products working in partnership with financial institutions across emerging markets. And that work was sort of deeply embedded in the economic development frame and thinking about the role of credit and finance in addressing challenges for local communities. all over the world i think s seme finance was just emerging as a frame at the time. And I continue to see it as one of the most powerful ways to really activate and empower populations across markets, across different levels of development and access and support.
00:30:28
Speaker
And that then eventually sort of put me in touch with MacArthur, which was doing some of his work locally, but also internationally. And I landed up here. I've been here and now almost, I think, 12 years, which is saying a lot. ah Next month, i complete 12 years. And I am so grateful for the opportunity to work on these very challenging aspects of helping build the field and address some of the needs and gaps that impact investing and organizations like us try to address in communities all around us. right So I think C3 and the work that I've done with some of our investment priorities both
00:31:09
Speaker
within the US and outside are all examples of organizations coming together around these very, very focused social and environmental objectives and being able to work together towards results. So I think that is very important. inspiring. And at the same time, because we are trying to do things thoughtfully and efficiently, there is some room, I think, to be creative and to think about different ways of approaching existing problems and contexts.
00:31:40
Speaker
ah So I really, really appreciate that. and And yeah, I think the field is full of new challenges. I don't know where the next 10 years will take me, but I am very grateful for the journey so far. That's amazing. And congratulations on your 12 years, almost 12 years.
00:31:58
Speaker
So this podcast is also an opportunity to reflect and celebrate success and achievements. So can you share with us something or some things that you are really proud of having achieved?
00:32:10
Speaker
Maybe if you want, you can also share something that you you want to achieve in the future. Yeah, it's interesting. I think, Krisztina, lot of my energy comes from the everyday wins. That said, I think I love working with people. I love the work that I do because I think over the course of my career, I've had the opportunity to always engage with a very broad variety of people who are consistently motivated and committed in our space. And it's always been fun to work with these broader groups of people.
00:32:43
Speaker
across different projects and initiatives. And I think the thing that i also enjoy and which kind of was happenstance for me, I didn't really register it until it happened, is that I think I like the challenge of creating something new and initially unstructured.
Balancing Work and Personal Life
00:32:57
Speaker
So the Catalytic Capital Consortium, of course, it was, I think the initial idea was really Debora's when it first came up and we all have worked together and continue to work together. The grant making piece was something where we had the broad contours and I worked with others to help define and then implement that. So that was i think really interesting to give shape to something and then to see the community that impact and uptake, right? That is very, very affirming in some ways. And then similar to that, when I worked with Shurka and now Capital Plus Exchange,
00:33:29
Speaker
ah we put together an SME finance community, which did not exist at that time, really, with our bankers from the different financial institutions we were with. And that group got very, very powerful. And in both cases, it's interesting that these were community structures that acquired a life of their own. And I think that work was then eventually shared with the IFC at some point.
00:33:52
Speaker
So I think that Those are two particular high points trying to put together something new with some room to be creative with how we do the work, but also really empowered by drawing inspiration from a community of leaders around me. That's brilliant. Yeah, very inspiring. I also imagine that, you know, it's a very broad scope.
00:34:15
Speaker
It can be a lot sometimes. How or maybe what helps you be your best self? That's an interesting question, Krisztina. And I think over the years, my realization of that has also evolved, right? As we grow older, we just get to know ourselves better. So I think I draw a lot of, I think,
00:34:32
Speaker
what should I say ah energy and sort of I would say well inspiration too from just having some spaces where we're not steeped in the work all the time so I like to garden in the summer I love to grow flowers and and this has been a has been something that really really helps me decompress a little bit. I also like to read fiction.
00:34:55
Speaker
I do read a lot for work, as I'm sure you do too. We're always looking at papers and there is such interesting insights to be had from seeing what people around us are writing about. But I also like to read fiction.
00:35:07
Speaker
And then I like to spend time around my family. All of those things feel ah really good. And as I've grown older, I think I've kind of tried to really balance out the sort of, you know, the long work hours and the constant focus on the next problem that I just have not been able to solve with some space to allow myself to get some respite and break and some actually some creative space to think about those problems without thinking about them right alongside. That's great. do you have any any books that you would recommend to the audience?
00:35:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I would recommend this one, but one of the last books I read was Dream Count by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. And I was first introduced to her writing when I chanced upon, I think this is called Half of a Purple Sun, which was, no, Half of a Yellow Sun, which was about the Biafra War in Nigeria sometime back. And then I read Americana soon after i moved to the us which created a really big impact on me because there were some insights in sort of American culture, which I totally had not registered. And and so Dreamcount is, I think, one of her newer books, which came out recently. And it's interesting. i think it's thought-provoking.
00:36:22
Speaker
From what I can tell, it's had mixed reactions. But I really, really admire how she
Advice and Insights for Women in Finance
00:36:27
Speaker
writes. And I find that no matter what the storyline is, her writing is so beautiful that I can just get immersed in that.
00:36:34
Speaker
I agree with that. I will add this one to my list. I've really enjoyed her other books. Umi, I ask this question of all my guests. How does it feel to be a woman doing your job?
00:36:45
Speaker
I think good on most days. I think that we all work in spaces where there are also a lot of men and historically traditionally a traditionally there've been fewer men like when I started in and finance there were hardly any women once when I think we were doing a board presentation at my prior organization one of our younger hires told me that she was really happy to see that you know we were very comfortable as women addressing a whole group of experts and leaders around us and many of them much older than us most of them men
00:37:19
Speaker
And I had not really registered that at the time. I think I've become much more aware of this question as I've grown older and I appreciate the opportunities we have. And I would just say that, you know, as a woman, I think that you just, even as an individual, maybe not just always as a woman, but as an individual, you bring your own lived experience perspectives inside and values to the work that you do and I think everybody is unique at the same time sort of trying to do these things as a woman can be harder than as a man I think and just to be cognizant of that as a woman and and give yourself some grace for what you want to do and how you want to do it and lean on others which I don't think I did enough of
00:38:02
Speaker
Find your mentors, find your support, talk to them and know that you have an invisible community of women all over the world who are all rooting for you. Right. That is absolutely true.
00:38:14
Speaker
We're approaching the end of this conversation. Quick questions for you. What is keeping you optimistic? I think, Krisztina, that is the work that we do. The work we that we do, the people we meet and the change that we see around us, right? This is what keeps us going. And to know that we, each of us have a role to play in being impactful and creating change and results. You think about sort of the countless stories of impact investing and microfinance. the early days and what we have seen by way of results. And those are only getting, I think, bigger and stronger and more sort of widespread. So I think there is tremendous value in what we as individuals and as a community of impact investing professionals can do. And I think the sky's the limit.
Inspiration and Action in Problem-Solving
00:39:01
Speaker
And I think that really is the the biggest thing that I remind myself of every step of the way when we run into issues big and small. Yes, absolutely.
00:39:11
Speaker
What or who is inspiring you? That's a tougher one. I think that ah collective action is really inspiring me today. And I see these movements across different scales, different purposes, different types of structures and addressing different kinds of challenges, right?
00:39:28
Speaker
Sometimes there are government issues. Sometimes there are societal issues. Sometimes there are financial infrastructures that are not ah that are not fair to communities and people. And just the way collective action kind of helps us move some of these problems out of the way is really inspiring to me.
00:39:47
Speaker
Do you have any final thoughts for the audience? Anything that you wish to see in the future that you are not seeing enough of? Yeah, I think we see a little bit of a lot of promising things.
00:39:58
Speaker
I think the one thing I would want to leave your audience with is to just be action oriented. We often try to understand all aspects of a problem before we come up with a solution and then we tend to worry a lot about what is practical, what will be acceptable to different folks, how best to get at something.
00:40:18
Speaker
I think action orientation and and really not focusing on having the perfect solution because there is no perfect solution to almost any. So it is to be very focused on what is the action we can take? How can we get results?
00:40:32
Speaker
Because I think the moment you have some results from some action, it really galvanizes a whole set of changes all along the spectrum of impact around that particular
Conclusion and Invitation
00:40:43
Speaker
action. So that would be my biggest point that for us to all act.
00:40:48
Speaker
versus sort of being focused on finding the the perfect way to act. Less reports, more action. There you go. A great, great final thought. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Urmi, for joining the show today.
00:41:03
Speaker
and yes, hope to, well, i'll see you perhaps so soon somewhere in the world. Yes, I hope so too. And it was wonderful talking with you. Thank you again for the opportunity, Krisztina. And thank you for doing this. I think people all around the world are really, really happy that you've taken this up. I've been so impressed by listening to some of the podcasts. Thank you.
00:41:28
Speaker
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00:41:39
Speaker
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00:41:50
Speaker
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00:42:05
Speaker
Women Changing Finance is part of the Impact Alpha podcast network. Smart conversations by and for impact investing professionals.