Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
E133: The Isdal Woman
4.2k Plays3 years ago
The case of an unknown woman’s burnt body found in Norway’s Isdal Valley seemed an easy one when her luggage was found days later. However, everyeement in the suitcases and every trail law enforcement followed only led to more questions.
Want to create your own podcast but don’t know where to start? Give Zencastr a try. Recording is as easy as clicking “New” and sharing a link with cohosts or guests. Plus you’ll get crisp, clear audio every single time! Simply go to http://zen.ai/coffeeandcasespod0 and enter promo code coffeeandcasespod0 for 30% off your first three months. It’s the only platform Maggie and so trust for recording remotely and we know you’ll love it as much as we do.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
We are excited to announce that this episode is being sponsored by Zencaster, our very own podcast recording platform. Make sure you listen for more information in the middle of the episode and in the show notes to hear exactly why we love Zencaster so much and how you yourself can get a discount.
Mysterious Death in Isdalen Valley
00:00:20
Speaker
The mountains and their accompanying frigid valleys overlook the Norwegian town of Bergen, population just over 200,000 in 1970 when our case took place. Bergen's wooden houses colorfully blot the wharf landscape, the reds, whites, and yellows blending into one another in the water below. The city seems alive, joyful, inviting. The mountains above, on the other hand,
00:00:50
Speaker
seem anything but. One valley in particular, right above the town, is Isdalen Valley. Ice Valley, when translated. That's the name on the maps, anyway. The name not on the map, the one locals call the valley, is Doddsdalen. Death Valley. Because of a series of suicides that occurred there during the Middle Ages, the legend is ancient.
00:01:17
Speaker
Then, in the 1960s, several hikers had underestimated the difficulty of the terrain and had fallen to their deaths there as well. While families would sometimes hike portions of the area together, other parts are too difficult for most hikers, so the name stuck.
00:01:36
Speaker
But it was ultimately what a young 12-year-old girl saw there in 1970 that sealed the moniker. A professor and his two daughters were taking an afternoon hike in the Isdalen Valley on November 29th, 1970, when his 12-year-old daughter, the oldest of his two girls, first noticed an odd burning smell. As they entered a clearing in the woods, that's when she also caught sight of something.
00:02:06
Speaker
the charred remains of a person, arms drawn up in a boxing position, as if trying to ward off whatever danger had come to it without success. Knowing they had to alert authorities, which meant making their way hiking back down the mountain until they could reach someone who might be able to help, I can only imagine their terrorizing thoughts that whoever might have committed this act could still be in the woods.
00:02:36
Speaker
watching, lurking, waiting for the right moment to strike them as well. But when authorities arrived and the investigation began, the case began taking one bizarre turn after another.
Hosts Introductions and Listener Engagement
00:02:53
Speaker
This is the case of the Isdal woman.
00:03:31
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:03:40
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families with each case. We encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, coffee and cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:04:08
Speaker
Okay, Allison, it's my favorite time of the week yet. Mine too. It's our time to give special thanks to all of you guys who recommended us or gave us reviews. And we want to give special thanks to the person who gave us a five star review this week. It wasn't a written one, so we don't know your name, but we celebrate you nonetheless. That's right. We're still super happy.
00:04:33
Speaker
We also have some gratitude to spread for our Facebook friends. Thank you so much to Tiffany and to Molly for recommending us when asked for suggestions this past week and to Amy, Alicia and Nicole for leaving us messages on our Facebook page.
00:04:53
Speaker
And since it's on my mind because we just recorded two more mini episodes for Patreon, I wanted to remind all of our listeners that if you would like some access to bonus content, hear some spooky paranormal stories, be entertained by some solved true crime cases, learn a little bit more about us, laugh a lot because that's what we do.
00:05:15
Speaker
Consider joining our Patreon where you can access all of that for as little as five dollars
The Isdal Woman's Case Details and Mysteries
00:05:21
Speaker
a month. So just head on over to patreon.com slash coffee and cases podcast to learn more. So before we start Maggie, I have to tell you and you sleuth hounds that this case was a bizarre one for me because there are elements in it that remind me of so many other cases that we have covered.
00:05:44
Speaker
So there's, I don't know if you caught it, but even the discovery of a body by a child was a lot like the lady of the dunes. There's some hiking and some unexplained elements like Dyatlov Pass. My favorite one we've done. I know. And there are some elements of DNA and teeth insights like in Little Miss Panisocki. Oh, well I'm ready. Let's go. Yeah. It's got everything.
00:06:15
Speaker
So now I told you about what the Isdal woman looked like to the little girl who found her, but I haven't yet told you about the elements of the scene that confused investigators even more from the very beginning. So as I mentioned in the introduction, the woman's body that this little girl discovered had been burned beyond recognition on the front half of her body.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yes, and this hot of a fire needed an accelerant, right? She's out in the middle of nowhere.
00:06:54
Speaker
And you said this was the 70s? 1970, 1970. But there was no accelerant visible in the landscape around the body. So, you know, this would need something like gasoline poured on her to burn this hot. And there was nothing. There wasn't even evidence of a campfire having been anywhere around her.
00:07:24
Speaker
So there's all these elements which all ready to investigators are weird. Then you have the fact that the back half of her, because notice I said the front half of her was charred beyond all recognition, the back half, which was lying flat against some large rocks, was untouched by flames.
00:07:47
Speaker
Now because of that, it allowed investigators to see what clothing she had on at least because the whole back of her just looked normal. So I actually asked Rodney because if you've been listening to the show for any amount of time, you know that my husband is, well, he's now retired, but was a career firefighter. So I asked him if that was unusual that only the top half of the body would be burned. And he said that it wasn't.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, really? Because that seems really weird to me. Nope. He said that if she were immobile when the fire started, right? So she's, for example, lying on her back as the fire's going, that it was not unusual at all.
00:08:31
Speaker
He said he'd seen many, which is really sad that he had to see this, but he's seen many bodies where the top half is completely burnt, but their backs, because they were found lying on their backs, just looked like everything was fine. Wow. I know. And then, I don't know if you caught the other detail in the introduction about the way the woman's arms were positioned.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah, like she was fighting somebody. Yeah, like you're blocking your face, like you're getting ready to fight. He also said that that is not unusual. Yeah, because in a fire, your muscles actually shrink. And when they contract, it will draw your arms up into that position. So it's almost like maybe she was just laying there after she was dead and then set on fire.
00:09:26
Speaker
Well, you would think that, but no. So I'm going to give you some info later. I'm bringing up the back being normal and her arms up in that position to say that these elements that you would think would be abnormal are actually not the confounding elements at the scene. What was confusing, Maggie, were the items that were around the woman's body.
00:09:56
Speaker
First of all, when investigators show up, they notice that there are these small bits of burned paper all around her on the ground. So had she been holding papers? Had papers been placed on her? Maybe the papers were on fire. Perhaps. But then how did that catch her on fire? Right. Because that alone wouldn't have, again, you would have been able to put that kind of fire out.
00:10:27
Speaker
But at this point, it was impossible to tell from the blackened ashes, whatever at one point had been written on these pieces of paper, because they're so charred. Under her body was a wool hat that had a faint smell of gasoline. OK. So at least theirs are accelerant. And upon testing, according to most sources, that gasoline was confirmed.
00:10:55
Speaker
But Maggie, if gasoline was the accelerant used to light this woman on fire, where was the gas can? Could the hat just have been soaked in gasoline? But it was underneath her and not burnt. Because remember, the bottom half of her was not burnt at all. And if she was alive when set on fire, why hadn't she moved? Right.
00:11:24
Speaker
And as soon as investigators probably were asking themselves that question, why hadn't she, was she already dead when she was set on fire? Why hadn't she moved? They likely noticed another item around her body that gave them a clue to the answer. Near her body were a dozen or so sleeping pills, phenomol.
00:11:52
Speaker
So is one of the theories we're going to talk about suicide? That is one theory. Yes, though. OK. I don't know if I buy it. But we'll get there. OK. OK. But Maggie, that wasn't all that was weird about the scene. In fact, there were many items placed around the woman. And I use the word placed.
00:12:16
Speaker
Because one of the forensic investigators at the scene, Tormod Bones, and please forgive me as I am saying Norwegian names, I am probably not saying them correctly.
00:12:28
Speaker
It's not me this week. That's right. It's me. One forensic investigator, Tormod Bones, told the BBC in 2017, quote, the placement and location of the object surrounding the body was strange. It looked like there had been some kind of ceremony, end quote.
00:12:50
Speaker
Ooh, ominous. Yes. So around her was the skeleton of a blue nylon umbrella because it had caught on fire. So there was a blue nylon umbrella or what was left of it. An empty bottle of St. Halvard liqueur with the label removed. So I'm guessing they could tell what kind it was by the bottle shape.
00:13:17
Speaker
Two water bottles with the labels removed. A melted plastic, yes. All of them had the labels removed. Oh, you just wait. If you think that's weird, you just wait. A melted plastic container that looked like one that was used to hold passports. A single blue rubber sailor boot.
00:13:43
Speaker
nylon stockings, a scarf, the remains of a purse or bag, and laying beside the body as if also arranged there were a ring, two earrings, and a woman's watch. Which makes us wonder why those items would have been removed if
Investigation and Inconsistencies in the Case
00:14:07
Speaker
she was committing suicide, like why not leave your jewelry on? And if it were a murder,
00:14:13
Speaker
why those items were not taken. Right, because you obviously know theft wasn't the motive because they left on valuable things. So I'm assuming because we're calling her like just a generic name, we've never found out who she is. We do not know. Those will be some theories that we will talk about.
00:14:35
Speaker
But what's weird is, again, as that forensic investigator said, when they're coming upon the scene, they see a completely charred woman with sleeping pills on the grounds around her. And yet all of these items were placed around her body almost ritualistically. Here's what's even more weird.
00:14:58
Speaker
The remains of the clothing that the woman had been wearing, obviously remember what could be taken from her back because again, that part of her was not burned. Okay, so they can at least tell what she had on. There was something strange about her clothing also. Of course there was. Just like the bottles around her body, all of the labels had been removed. Meticulously cut out. Found it? Mm-hmm.
00:15:25
Speaker
Okay, so this is almost like OCD type. And one final detail, though, this is one, I will tell you, I saw, I did see it in several of my sources, but I didn't see it in all of them, was that it was difficult to get a fingerprint from the body, not just because of the burns, but because it seemed that her fingerprints had mostly been scraped off.
00:15:58
Speaker
And I'm mentioning this detail, even though, again, it was not in all of the sources, I'm bringing it up so you know about it. But I also want to go ahead and give a word of caution with that detail because I do wonder, is this a detail that maybe it was just circulated enough that her story was that lore kind of mingled with the truth?
00:16:25
Speaker
And so this is one of those details. And it happened so long ago. Like, what's true? What's rumor? Right. And particularly because the scraping of the fingerprints kind of fits with one theory that we'll discuss. And so that part of me is like, well, was this just, you know, a story that was told? That makes my fingerprints like, or my fingertips like tingle. That just, yeah.
00:16:53
Speaker
I know. But despite the strangeness of the scene, within three weeks, Norwegian law enforcement had closed the case and ruled it a suicide to be filed away as case name 134 slash 70. That's it. Suicide case closed. But I start questioning why the unmarked nature of the scene
00:17:24
Speaker
Could she have wanted her own identity wiped away from existence? And if she had wanted to commit suicide, why come all the way out here in the middle of nowhere, not dressed for the weather, we'll talk about that here in a little bit, to set fire to yourself on a mountainside in the frigid November weather? I just don't think that's a very, um,
00:17:46
Speaker
Is suicide by fire common? No. That is not a standard method of suicide by any means. And if that's how you planned to go, why the sleeping pills? And why are those laying around your body? Maybe you just didn't want to feel it.
00:18:03
Speaker
Maybe. Why are the other items laying around your body? Did they mean something? Were they a message? And then if they were a message, why take measures to erase what part of that message was by removing the labels on your clothes and by not letting anybody know who you are? Right. But the biggest question, if this were a suicide, is what I asked earlier. Where was the container of gasoline accelerant?
00:18:32
Speaker
How did she herself start the fire? I swear, if one of our theories is spontaneous combustion, I will die. It is not. But I mean, there you go. OK. Now, all of these questions that I have, Maggie, there were some members of law enforcement who had those same questions. Some law enforcement officers felt that the case was closed far too quickly to have been properly investigated.
00:19:01
Speaker
Almost as though the government wanted the case closed quickly, which led us to yet another question, and then why?
Discoveries in Storage Locker and Identity Challenges
00:19:15
Speaker
Why would they want that? Exactly. So it wasn't merely the oddities of the crime scene that made those officers who questioned the ruling feel that something was being covered up.
00:19:27
Speaker
but also another discovery that happened only three days after the body was found. So three days later, oh yeah, on December 2nd, 1970, the payment expired on a storage locker at the nearby Bergen train station. Inside the storage locker were two suitcases.
00:19:56
Speaker
And what caught the attention of law enforcement was that the bags had been placed there on the morning of the 23rd, just a few hours before law enforcement and investigators determined that the Isdal woman had died.
00:20:15
Speaker
Who could they be hers? That's what they were asking. So I am sure law enforcement believed at this point that the case was about to be closed, that the contents would clear up the situation by indicating at least her identity, if not also a motive. And it's likely that the Norwegian law enforcement believed that they were finally to find some answers to their most pressing questions, right? Who is this woman? I'm gonna guess they were not though. What happened? They were not.
00:20:44
Speaker
Instead, they were faced with even more uncertainties. And you just wait. Per this case. Yes. So they were able to establish that the bags did indeed belong to the Isdal Woman because within the luggage, they found a partial fingerprint located on a pair of sunglasses. And that matched what little they could get of a fingerprint from the body.
00:21:14
Speaker
So they know these bags are hers. But Maggie, the sunglasses were about the only normal thing that they found in the luggage. Oh, I don't doubt it. In the lining of one of the suitcases, they found five 100 Deutschmark notes. So that was roughly 140 US dollars equivalent in 1970. I wonder if she was trying to run away.
00:21:43
Speaker
We'll talk about that. So at first, when law enforcement, they see in the lining of the luggage, these five 100 Deutsche Mark notes, this seems to indicate that maybe this woman was either from or traveled to Germany, except that as they continue going through the luggage, they also found money from Norway, Belgian coins, along with British and Swiss coins as well.
00:22:13
Speaker
She's a European traveler. Yeah, now they're thinking, why would this woman have money from five different countries? And why was some of it in the lining of her suitcase? So more questions. Very secretive. So they continue carefully sorting through the items in the luggage. And here is what they found. A pair of glasses that had non-prescriptive lenses.
00:22:41
Speaker
So just a pair of glasses as if, you know, maybe you want to put them on to look smarter. Like a fashion style. Right. Yeah. Make up the labels of which were removed. Of course they were. Several wigs, stylish clothing, all of which had the labels removed, eczema cream, like a prescription for it with the identifying information scratched off.
00:23:08
Speaker
a steel soup spoon, a scalpel-like knife, timetables, several roadmaps of Norway, all of them with 16 slash 6 written in blue pen, and then one of them with train stations circled in pencil, a map of southern Scandinavia,
00:23:33
Speaker
a blank notebook with blank postcards stuffed inside, each one with religious images printed on them, and a notepad with something written in code. Ooh, code. I hope we get to look at it. So we do. So again, glasses that serve no purpose, makeup, clothing,
00:23:58
Speaker
eczema cream, all the labels, identifying information scratched off. It's almost like this lady had multiple like, like aliases. And she did.
00:24:12
Speaker
but I'm getting ahead of myself. Okay, so she has this notebook filled with code. The code was immediately taken to code breakers with the law enforcement to see what they could figure out. In the meantime though, everyone was left wondering, who was this woman? And why was her identity seemingly erased from every item in her belongings? All of the items that is,
00:24:41
Speaker
save for the partial fingerprint and one additional item. And I almost feel like the fingerprint was an accident. She accidentally left that thing. Yeah. That additional item, though, was a bag from a shoe store. While it didn't provide a name, at least it was a lead.
00:25:06
Speaker
and it was from a shoe store in Stavanger, Norway, a town 130 miles from Bergen.
00:25:14
Speaker
So at this point, at least police knew where she had likely come from before arriving in Bergen. OK, so now to follow the lead to the store. When law enforcement arrived, they spoke with the owner's son, who had sold a pair of blue boots to a woman three weeks earlier. And the boots that he described. And we have the one. Yep, we have the one from the crime scene. The boots he described, Maggie, were identical.
00:25:44
Speaker
to the one that was found near the Isdal woman's body. So they're like, okay, we're getting somewhere. And Maggie, he wasn't just able to describe the boots. He could also describe the woman. Oh, he said she was well dressed of average height around five foot four inches. She had dark brown eyes and mid length dark hair. And she had a round face.
00:26:11
Speaker
He described her as slightly plump with pretty legs.
00:26:19
Speaker
he told NRK Radio Norway, quote, she was a customer who took up space, asked a lot of questions and spent a long time making up her mind. Her English was poor, end quote. But if she had multiple aliases, I mean, he could be describing her sort of accurately, but maybe not her true self in all aspects.
00:26:50
Speaker
Right. The good news is his description was at least something that law enforcement could use. Right. As a starting point.
00:27:03
Speaker
because at least it's something. While police were following that lead, other law enforcement, the code breakers, were able to decipher the notebook entry that they found. First, let me show it to you, Maggie, so you can describe what you see. And then I'll tell you what they determined that it meant. All right, so it almost looks like measurements of some sort.
00:27:31
Speaker
It'll be like a number and a letter. A letter and a number. Some symbols I've never seen before, which they could be maybe part of like another language. But mostly letters and numbers. Yeah, almost sometimes looks like latitude and longitude type things. While there are still a few unknown letters and ambiguities to the code.
00:28:01
Speaker
What they found, Maggie, is that the letters and numbers corresponded with the woman's likely travel. So for example, 030BN5 was linked to a stay in Bergen, hence the B, from October 30th, which is why it's 030.
00:28:29
Speaker
to November 5th, which is the N5. Do you get what I'm saying? So the letters and the numbers indicated the city she was in and the dates. So another example, N9, N18S was a stay in Stavanger from November 9th to November 18th. So N9, N18S
00:28:59
Speaker
for Stavanger. This is what the code breakers were able to realize. I wonder why she didn't use the same format though. I don't know. I don't know why that's with. But again, now we have another lead because now investigators could formulate a plan at least for their search. And luckily more clues based on the description given by the man in the shoe store would come flooding in
00:29:27
Speaker
during the following days. But would they be enough to lead to any solid answers?
00:29:40
Speaker
Allison and I find it hard to record together these days with everything going on in our lives. That's why we began looking for a recording platform that would allow us to record the same quality, crisp audio that we could when we were in person. Allison made it her mission to find the best platform for doing just that, and that's when she discovered Zemcaster.
00:30:02
Speaker
Zencaster is what Maggie and I use each week to record our episodes, and it is extremely easy to use, even if you've never used a recording platform before. You don't have to download a thing. I go to the website zencaster.com, create the session for which you can record audio, video, or both, and then email Maggie the link. She clicks it and that's it. We are ready to hit the record button and start.
00:30:29
Speaker
Even when we have guests who aren't tech savvy, all they have to do is click the link to join in the recording. Zencaster is an all-in-one podcast production suite that gives you studio quality audio and video without needing to have any technological background knowledge.
00:30:46
Speaker
And once you're finished recording, the magic of Zencaster continues, as everything you've just created is securely backed up on the cloud, so no more lost files. You get a transcript generated from your recording and you have quality material to work with in post-production. I honestly could not brag about Zencaster enough.
00:31:07
Speaker
If you're thinking about creating your own podcast, but worry because your co-host and someone you'd like to interview is in another city, worry no more. We want you to have the same easy experience as we do. If you go to zen.ai slash coffee and cases, pod zero, and in our promo code, coffee and cases, pod zero, all one word, you'll get 30% off your first three months. That's zen.ai slash coffee and cases, pod zero. It's time to share.
00:31:37
Speaker
and easily record your story. So using that description, police were then able to locate a hotel where a woman of that exact same description had stayed. She had checked in under the name Fenella Lorke.
00:32:04
Speaker
strangely though Maggie. Now that's the name in Stavenger. Remember that's where the shoe store is. There was a woman who stayed at a hotel matching the exact same description who checked in under the name Fenella Lorke but there was no such name
00:32:21
Speaker
in the hotel logs in Bergen. Ooh, so my theory, multiple names. As I just mentioned, now that the code was cracked with her travel and police had a description, they could put the two together. They thought to find the woman's identity. Little did they know, as you guessed, Maggie, how hard that task would be.
00:32:48
Speaker
You see what they found instead of an identity was that the woman had gone by eight to 10 different names during her travel.
Unusual Behavior and Witness Accounts
00:32:58
Speaker
Oh my God. Yeah. So not just one or two aliases, eight to 10. Now, again, based on the code, because they had cracked it, they knew roughly in what towns to look on what dates.
00:33:15
Speaker
They also knew different hotel check-ins were made by this same woman, by the Isdal Woman, despite the various aliases, not only by cross-checking with a code, but also because once they had linked the Isdal Woman with that alias Vanilla Lorc in Stavanger,
00:33:35
Speaker
Investigators realized that her handwriting when she signed into the hotel was so distinctive that they were then, despite any changes in name, able to realize this was also the install woman. That's awesome. But what they didn't realize at the time was just how many names she would be associated with. So they traveled to Oslo.
00:34:00
Speaker
They traveled to Bergen, they traveled to Stavenger, they traveled to Trondheim, and every place they went, they found different names at each location. She had been Claudia Thielt in Bergen, Genevieve Lancer in Oslo, Claudia Thielt again in Brussels, but she had also been Vera Jarley, Claudia Nielsen, Alexia Zarna-Merches, Vera Schlossenik,
00:34:28
Speaker
Elizabeth Leinhof, and of course, Fenella Lorke. So she had been all of those people in all those different towns. Again, I probably butchered some of those names. My deepest apologies.
00:34:44
Speaker
But it wasn't as though, because all of these, this changing of names, right? This is just adding to the mystery that is surrounding this woman. All they want to do is figure out who she is. And that seems impossible. Right. Even her travel, Maggie, was odd and sporadic. In her last trip, and again, this is based on the code, she traveled from Paris to Stavanger, Norway to Bergen to Trondheim
00:35:15
Speaker
back to Stavanger and back to Bergen. And that was just in the last trip. I wonder if she's running from something. That's something that we will talk about. On a positive note for law enforcement, between the hotels where police could trace her movement, again, because of the handwriting and the code, there were many people, Maggie, who recalled seeing the woman
00:35:43
Speaker
or recalled specific things about her. So this is all good, right? These are maybe pieces that law enforcement can use to try to figure out who she is. A receptionist and scavenger recalled a dark haired and golden skinned woman with wide hips without being overweight who spoke poor English. And that description sounded identical to the one that the man in the shoe store had provided.
00:36:11
Speaker
Another hotel employee, this one at Hotel Neptune, recalled seeing the Isdal Woman in the dining room where this employee worked. And she remembered the woman because the woman had a gap between her front teeth and the woman always ordered porridge for breakfast. But this woman, the Isdal Woman, stood out even more because it wasn't common in 1970 for a woman to be traveling alone.
00:36:39
Speaker
Yet here was this stylish woman sitting confidently in the dining room. And that made an impression on this young girl, this employee, because she remembers whispering to a coworker that she hoped to be just like that woman when she was an adult, aloof and self-assured.
00:37:02
Speaker
Obviously, again, we talk about memory all the time, and there has to be something that triggers it, and that was it for her. A bellboy at that same hotel said, quote, she was the kind of woman we hardly ever saw other than in magazines and movies, end quote. Aw. Yeah. And most of the other hotel workers recalled meeting the woman for one reason or another because of some peculiar behavior on her part.
00:37:33
Speaker
Once she got checked into a hotel, she often asked to change rooms multiple times during her visit. Like she would stay like a day in the morning. Exactly. One hotel worker even noticed that she had taken a letter off of a nearby door and switched it with the one on her own in order to change her room number.
00:38:01
Speaker
She would rearrange furniture in the rooms, sometimes moving furniture out of the room completely and into the hallway, sometimes placing furniture in front of the door leading into the room. She was also joined at several times by a variety of men.
00:38:21
Speaker
One hotel worker unlocked the room door to clean and noticed the Isdal woman sitting on the bed and a gentleman sitting on the couch in the room and neither one of them spoke to one another while the worker was in their cleaning room. This just gets weirder and weirder with the details.
00:38:44
Speaker
And because of these peculiarities, the workers obviously recognized this woman like, oh, that's the woman who keeps asking to switch rooms. That's the woman who keeps putting furniture out in the hallway. That's the woman who's traveling by herself, but has a variety of men coming by. And so they recognized her face.
00:39:05
Speaker
What's odd about that is because then she also noticeably started wearing multiple wigs during her stay. Well, they obviously know who she is. They know it's the same woman just wearing a wig because they've seen her. She did tell most of the workers that she was either a traveling saleswoman or an antiquities dealer.
00:39:32
Speaker
Those were the stories that she generally stuck with. She almost sounds like she's on some type of manic episode or something. Well, we're going to talk about that possibility too, Maggie. You're getting so good at guessing. While she went by a variety of names and she was overheard speaking in German, Flemish, French, and in broken English,
00:39:59
Speaker
She always wrote, this is one consistency on all of her hotel forms. She always wrote Belgian as her nationality when checking in. So investigators believe that that common thread may be the closest link to the truth that they might get, though we still don't know if even that detail is accurate. Yeah, or just the habit she got into. Right.
00:40:30
Speaker
Law enforcement also managed to find other individuals who had encountered the Isdal Woman other than the hotel workers, again as they're traveling to all of these towns based on the code. One individual worked at a furnishing store and detailed how a woman meeting the Isdal Woman's description came in with a gentleman to buy a mirror.
00:40:54
Speaker
She remembered that the couple argued extensively while they were in the shop, but that the woman eventually bought a mirror. And of course, I'm racking my brain here because I'm wondering, why would she buy a mirror if she's staying at a hotel? And if she bought a mirror. And was a mirror found in her position? No. So that seems odd to me.
00:41:20
Speaker
One other clue that law enforcement got came from the postcards that she had in her possession. Remember she had the one empty notebook that had the postcards shoved in it? Yeah. One of those postcards captured the work of an Italian photographer. When police spoke with him, he told them, oh yeah, I gave a ride to Hotel Alexandra to a woman who matches that description that you just told me.
00:41:47
Speaker
He said, I had dinner with her. And they said, well, what do you remember about her? What did you learn about her? And he said the only thing that he could recall about what she said about her life was that she told him she was from a small town in South Africa and that she had six months to explore all of Norway's beautiful destinations.
00:42:13
Speaker
That's so weird. Did she have a disease? Like a cancer or something that was going to end her life? Not that I'm aware of. That they didn't find anything like that that I saw when they were doing any of the autopsy, but we'll get to the autopsy more here in a second. When the Izzal woman checked out of the hotel in Bergen, so remember where she's found in
00:42:42
Speaker
the valley that she's found, it's right outside of the city of Bergen. When she checked out of the Bergen Hotel, she paid in cash and she took a cab to the train station. Now at the time, law enforcement, they were searching for this cab driver and no one would come forward. Almost two decades later in 1991,
00:43:10
Speaker
A driver finally came forward, a driver who to this day wishes to remain anonymous, who said that he drove the woman to the train station and that a man had joined her in the cab before they got to the station. Why wait so long to come forward with that information? It doesn't
00:43:35
Speaker
Unless he was scared. You necessarily, I mean, the fact that yeah, maybe, or you're trying to hide something. Cause I feel like the fact you waited that long makes you sound iffy. I mean, there's that, or he's scared of whoever this man was. True. And the problem here, Maggie, is that I read nowhere, whether that statement had been vetted or not. And you know, if they figured out that this was indeed the cab driver.
00:44:05
Speaker
So again, as I mentioned earlier, everything about this woman seems clouded in speculation and mystery.
Autopsy and Burial Details
00:44:14
Speaker
We can't get a straight story out of anybody or answers out of anyone or any clue. And each story seemed to lead in a different direction and none of them to any satisfying conclusions.
00:44:29
Speaker
Even more odd was what else was not found. There weren't no identification papers anywhere. No credit cards. No receipts from other hotels. No train tickets. Nothing. Unless that's the paper that was all around her that was burnt. Perhaps.
00:44:49
Speaker
But I have a question about that that I'll get to later when we talk about the theories. While Norwegian authorities were searching every possible lead in the case, an autopsy was completed by an institute in Norway and they found that the woman had died from two causes, the phenomol sleeping pills and carbon monoxide poisoning. The carbon monoxide along with soot discovered in her lungs
00:45:19
Speaker
indicated that she was alive when she was set on fire. So I wonder like so drugged out on the sleeping pills that she just wasn't really awake alive but not awake you know. I think that explains why she wouldn't move because remember that was one of my questions. If she's on fire and she's alive why didn't she move?
00:45:45
Speaker
So the analysis of the Institute performed on her blood and stomach further revealed that she had taken not just a few sleeping pills, Maggie. She had taken or was forced to take, depending on what theory you want to follow, between 50 and 70 sleeping pills.
00:46:08
Speaker
These particular pills were ones normally prescribed for epilepsy, insomnia, or anxiety, but it was also a common pill at the time taken by those who wished to commit suicide by overdosing.
00:46:26
Speaker
The recommended dose of phenomol is around 30 to 320 milligrams in a day. So no more than 320 milligrams. The Istol woman whose pills were 60 milligrams each had taken from 3000 to 4200 milligrams. Yeah.
00:46:49
Speaker
medical examiners, they kind of think what you're thinking. Okay, well, if we're going with suicide, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in the theories, perhaps she was incapacitated by the sleeping pills, but not yet dead, which would explain the carbon monoxide poisoning. Medical examiners also discovered that her neck had been badly bruised, either from falling and hitting it
00:47:17
Speaker
or from having been struck there. So many like, it could be this, but it could also easily be this. It could be this, but easily this. And I think because of that, Maggie, because there were so few clear answers, the examiners did at least have the foresight. They removed her jaw to preserve and continue to test, you know, for example, her teeth, because there were some unique
00:47:45
Speaker
dental practices done on those teeth. I'll get to that in a minute. And they also preserve some tissue samples from her organs to continue testing. Oh, good. Sketches were made based on the remains as well as the eyewitness testimonies, but no one ever came forward to claim the Isdal Woman.
New Investigation and Forensic Discoveries
00:48:04
Speaker
So on February 5th, 1971, just over eight weeks after her body had been discovered, she was given a Catholic burial.
00:48:14
Speaker
And they did a Catholic burial since she had used several names of saints in her hotel check-in forms. And because of those religious postcards that were stuffed in that one empty notebook, they presumed that she was Catholic and she was placed in a graveyard in Bergen.
00:48:34
Speaker
The only ones in attendance at her funeral were 16 officers from the Bergen police. Oh, that's so sad. But they did photograph extensively her funeral in case any family ever did come forward. And they buried her in a zinc coffin.
00:48:55
Speaker
because apparently zinc is better for long-term preservation. And they wanted to do that in case the body should ever have to be disinterred either for future testing or to be moved to be buried once her family was found.
00:49:13
Speaker
Well, that's very nice, though, that they took those extra steps for her family. And now, I mean, obviously, due to there being so many strange details surrounding this case, now you understand why that ruling of suicide was so confounding to many of the investigators. It wasn't until 2017 that we were able to glean a few more insights into the woman's life because it was then
00:49:43
Speaker
that a new investigation was launched into the case and forensic analysis was done on her teeth. And remember how much we learned from little Miss Panosofky's teeth? Yes. Yes. So much like that case, the Istol woman's teeth gave us some information. When isotope tests were run on her teeth, they showed that she likely grew up in a region just along the French-German border.
00:50:13
Speaker
This is so fascinating to me. I know how they can do that. DNA testing determined that she was of European descent. Oddly though, her teeth also threw a bit of a curve ball in the fact that several of her teeth, and by several, I mean, and I saw in different reports, different numbers, but anywhere between 10 and 14 of her teeth had preformed gold crests on them.
00:50:42
Speaker
So I'm guessing it's kind of like a gold filling, I guess, but they were preformed just over the tots. And one professor noted of that dental practice, quote, they are of a very distinct character and design, which is in use, for instance, in the Orient and in some parts of Southern and Central Europe, end quote.
00:51:10
Speaker
So she had a grill. Super rare. Yeah, she had a grill, but a super rare one.
Theories on The Isdal Woman's Identity
00:51:17
Speaker
Like most of our unknown person cases, Maggie, I have some theories. Some of them are concerning her identity and others concerned about what happened to her. So I'm excited to hear which one you think is most likely. Okay, theory number one.
00:51:30
Speaker
is what people, the police specifically, would have us believe from their ruling only three weeks after her discovery that she had committed suicide. So she was found with 50 to 70 sleeping pills, either in her bloodstream or her stomach. And that does seem excessive, especially if we're to believe that she was forced to take them, right? That seems like a lot. Instead,
00:52:01
Speaker
Some speculate, who say this is a suicide, maybe she had taken some of them before leaving the hotel in Bergen and then had taken several more once she made it to the spot where she was found. She perhaps could have placed all of these items around her own body, around herself, before setting herself on fire. But here are my questions.
00:52:28
Speaker
These questions are unanswered if we go with this theory. First, why not just take the pills? Yes, that's what I'm saying. Why do we have to set ourself on fire? Why not just take the sleeping pills? It doesn't make sense. Why come here to this spot? We don't know that. Why are there still 12 sleeping pills around her body? Why didn't she take those two?
00:52:58
Speaker
depending on how much earlier in the day she had taken some of those pills, like most people think, oh, maybe she took some while she was still at the hotel in Bergen, would she not have already had some difficulty in walking if she took that many? Okay, I was about to say that, yes. And if you're gonna have trouble walking, why would you make a plan where you have to walk a great distance to the spot where you're wanting to commit the suicide?
00:53:26
Speaker
And you didn't make it sound like that was an easy walk. No, it was about one to one and a half miles away between Bergen and the place where her body was discovered. And my big question is, like I said in the beginning, why set yourself on fire? Because that seems torturous. Yeah, it seems very horrific. And if she did set her own self on fire, how the heck did the fire start?
00:53:54
Speaker
Where was the container that held the accelerant? Where was the source of the flame? So at the very least with this theory, I think you would have to argue that if her plan were to take her own life, there had to have been someone or multiple people there with her to make sure that she did. Because only then could somebody else have had the accelerant. Yep. And the fire source and then taken it from the scene.
00:54:24
Speaker
So that's theory number one is the suicide assisted suicide. Yeah, me neither. Theory two is that what happened to the woman was a tragic accident, perhaps brought upon by persecutorial mania. So you remember you said, could she have had some sort of mental illness where she's paranoid?
00:54:52
Speaker
Some people wonder if that is the case. And that's theory number two. They think, and this is their speculation, that that bruise that was found on the Istol woman's neck, maybe it did result from a fall. They posit that maybe she had been camping or hiking at a spot higher above where she was found. And somehow in an attempt to start a campfire or something of the sort, she had spilled gasoline.
00:55:22
Speaker
accidentally caught herself on fire, right? And they speculate that in the process of trying to put the fire out, she had fallen from that height onto the rocks, which would again explain why only the front of her- This seems very elaborate to me. It does. They argue though that she might still have come to the Istal Valley to take her own life, but by the sleeping pills alone.
00:55:50
Speaker
So they basically argue that the fire was somehow an accident. So could she have been clumsy enough? I mean, maybe the sleeping pills were starting to take effect and some tragic accident like that did happen. But they argue that it's going to be able to find evidence of it somewhere. Yeah, I think so, too.
00:56:13
Speaker
And they argue that, and this is why they add that element of the persecutory delusions, is because they say that's really the only thing that would explain her previous actions because persecutory delusions, they're a form of delusions that usually accompany paranoid schizophrenia.
00:56:35
Speaker
And it makes somebody believe that they're being followed, that danger is coming for them. And that is what would explain why the removal of all the labels, why the multiple wigs, the aliases, the constant travel, switching of rooms, removal of hotel furniture. Yeah, if she's thinking it's bugged or whatever. What this theory doesn't explain though, if this were a tragic accident, she fell on the rocks.
00:57:03
Speaker
How did her personal items end up laying around her body almost ritualistically? So there's theory two. Theory three is that the Isdal Woman was murdered.
00:57:22
Speaker
if one of the, and here's where I'm gonna talk about identities because I think by arguing what her identity might be could help explain potentially why there might be a list, some shorter, some longer of enemies who might want her dead. Okay, so we're gonna talk briefly in this theory of murder about who the Istol woman might have been. So here are the questions.
00:57:51
Speaker
Was she a prostitute? So some people wonder if the multiple identities checking into hotels, always under false names, multiple currencies in her possession might potentially indicate that she was a high end prostitute. They wonder if that would explain why she had so many aliases, maybe so she couldn't be linked with whomever she was with.
00:58:20
Speaker
Is that why she had multiple currencies because these men would pay in their own money? And remember, she was seen like several different men were seen going into or exiting her hotel room or were seen in her company when in public. Did she have various wigs so she could match what particular clients wanted? So might that be an indication of her profession? That's one possibility.
00:58:50
Speaker
If that's the case, those who believe this theory, they say, well, maybe she went a little bit too far with one of the men. Or maybe their relationship got too close and he didn't want her around anymore. Well, Mike, that doesn't explain a lot of things to me. It doesn't explain why we have to remove labels from our clothing, why things are laid around her.
00:59:20
Speaker
missing pieces. I get stuck on that removing the labels from clothing too and then I was thinking you know unless she did have the prescription for eczema cream so her skin might be itchy so maybe it's so bad that labels it your skin and that's why she removed them but then she removes them from water and stuff though
00:59:42
Speaker
Well, see, yeah, that's that's the weird thing. Because like Rodney, he removes labels from all of his shirts because they bother him. But you're right. Why remove labels from other items? And if you're trying to hide a relationship with those men have really been out in public with her because it's not as though Bergen is a small town. Remember, this is a town of like 200,000 people. So people are out and about. Right.
01:00:11
Speaker
So there's that theory. Another theory, was she a spy? There are some obvious reasons why this is the theory that many who hear this case are attracted to. After all, all of her garments had the tags removed. All identifying information on her eczema cream and even the bottles of water and makeup were removed.
01:00:36
Speaker
Officers found all of those aliases for this woman. She had wigs packed in her suitcases. She had money from various countries. She had a coded travel log from her trips and potentially scraped off fingerprints. Though it's because of this theory of her being a spy that that element of the story, right, I think is one that maybe is made up.
01:01:07
Speaker
To support this theory of her being a spy, in a police file from December 22nd, 1970, a fisherman made a report of a woman matching the description given by the other eyewitnesses. While the transcript of his statement is missing from the police file, a police file previously classified as secret,
01:01:33
Speaker
There is a note that the fisherman's testimony as well as a comparison of her travel itinerary with missile testing.
01:01:42
Speaker
shows that her travel lined up with the testing of a missile boat in the town that the fisherman saw her on the date that he saw her. And her travel in other places matched testing of the Penguin missile, which was a missile created in a collaboration between the Norwegian Defense Research Establishment and Kongsberg Groupen, which is this Norwegian tech company focused on defense.
01:02:12
Speaker
these companies had funding from the US and West Germany. So all of her travel matches. And I also wonder, could this be the reason that the government so quickly said it was a suicide? Because we're just trying to tie it up and get it out. Many people believe. Now, this fisherman, and again, we talked about memory, he had noticed her because, again, she was so well dressed.
01:02:41
Speaker
and he saw her have a lengthy conversation with an officer from one of the torpedo boats. And because she had stood out to him, when he saw the police sketch, he was convinced that the Isdal Woman is the same one that he had previously seen. So, there's one indication that she could be a spy. In an article for Buzzfeed,
01:03:07
Speaker
They noted that in the 1970s, Norway was home to many Russian spies as well as Mossad agents from Israel and this Mossad, and again, I'm probably saying that incorrectly.
01:03:23
Speaker
They were known for covert operations. It's the National Intelligence Agency in Israel. And one group that would be recruited by their agents was made up of unpaid Jewish civilians who wanted to help because of their devotion to Israel. So people wonder, could she have been working for one of those groups? While this is the most popular theory, there are some problems with this theory that I'm gonna bring up now. First,
01:03:54
Speaker
A spy should always try to blend in.
01:03:58
Speaker
That is what makes you a good spot. Oh, yeah, and she definitely didn't do that. No, she did not do that. Those who saw her recalled in vivid detail what she looked like. Changing rooms in a hotel only served to draw attention to herself, moving the furniture all around. And again, after people know what you look like, why noticeably change wigs in front of those people who had already seen you?
01:04:26
Speaker
Why cover up all of your tracks except for the boot purchase? Right? These are not things that a spy would necessarily do. And though this next comment Maggie is going to seem completely out of left field for you for a moment, bear with me. If I'm trying to blend in, I'm definitely going to make sure that I don't smell.
01:04:55
Speaker
And I say this because nearly every single witness from the shoe store to the hotels said that this woman smelled distinctly like garlic. Okay. So you should have seen my face at first when you started with this, but now I've caught up and I understand where you were going with that. But yeah, I feel like your smell is an important factor of that because yeah, smells stick with people.
01:05:26
Speaker
Yeah, they're going to remember you because you smell like garlic.
01:05:30
Speaker
And they're going to remember even more details about you because of that. Right. And garlic at the time was not a prominent ingredient in this area of Norway. So I actually was thinking, well, what could cause somebody to smell like garlic then? And that's exactly what I googled. And I found that if you eat a lot of cumin or curry, because for some people it breaks down, those spices do, and mixes with sweat in the skin to create the smell.
01:06:00
Speaker
It could also be caused by I know fascinating sulfur based medications like those taken to treat a bladder condition or the smell can reveal an underlying liver disease can make you smell like garlic.
01:06:18
Speaker
Maybe that was why she only had six months to explore the place. I mean, it could be because she had liver disease. It could be. And that's why she smelled like garlic. But no matter the cause, if my life depends upon blending in, I'm not going to, you know, let anything make me stand out. Right.
01:06:36
Speaker
And it's that smell that also caused a KGB expert, British journalist Alexander Vasiliev, to argue that if she were a spy, she most definitely was not a Russian spy, because then she would have smelled like Chanel No. 5. Those were his words. I'm dead serious. Chanel No. 5 is what she would have smelled like.
01:06:59
Speaker
He also said, though, that Soviet spies were known to only have one or two aliases and that each— And she had like eight. Right. Because each one of their aliases would be backed up with so many fake documents that it would create and support a whole backstory for that alternate identity.
01:07:22
Speaker
But like you said, the Isdal Woman had eight to 10 different names with no documentation ever found to back up any of them. Because you know, the more identities and aliases you have, the easier it would be to make a mistake.
Alternative Theories and Closure Efforts
01:07:36
Speaker
So that's why they wouldn't have wanted to. And if she were trying to wipe herself out of existence, if she is a spy,
01:07:44
Speaker
And she's going to burn herself. Why not also burn the contents of the suitcase and all of the things that are neatly placed around you? Oh yeah. But why not just burn it all? I had completely forgot about the suitcase. Why would you leave that? So even though her being a part of the KGB might be ruled out, could she be a Jewish woman devoted to Israel and willing to work for that other intelligence group?
01:08:14
Speaker
This theory concerning her identity is based around the fact that even though on her hotel paperwork, her age was listed anywhere between 25 and 30, medical examiners place her more around 40 to 45 years old. And based upon her tissue samples and her teeth, Maggie, she might have spent her early years around Nuremberg before moving west to the France-Germany border.
01:08:43
Speaker
a move which would have corresponded time-wise with the Nazi rise to power. So was she Jewish and trying to escape? And if she was a civilian agent and not one who was trained, might that then explain the multiple aliases? Yeah, that's what I was thinking, like the little kind of almost mistake that she made. Could someone have found out her role and killed her because of it?
01:09:13
Speaker
Now to play devil's advocate, cause that's what I always do. If she were Jewish, how do we explain all of the aliases related to Catholicism and then the Catholic religious postcards that were stuffed into the empty notebook that was found in her luggage? I don't know.
01:09:29
Speaker
That's true. Because it was 1970. It's not like she really had to hide that. And the final question, was she someone's mistress? Now you asked me earlier, could she have been running from someone? Oh, interesting. This theory might explain why everything was erased about her identity. So no one would ever find out who she was.
01:09:49
Speaker
If we follow this theory, she might have taken her own life, and then the items that were left around her were clues only meant for the person she was having an affair with about what she had done and why. Maybe there were things that he would recognize, and so he would know who she was, but no one else.
01:10:10
Speaker
So, but then we question was she running to or running from that person? And of course, if she were a mistress, that would explain why no one came forward. Right? Or could the person she was having an affair with have committed a murder? Oh, interesting. Maybe they had even yeah, maybe they had even planned and I was probably thinking this because of that recent story about the prison guard who escaped with the
01:10:39
Speaker
the prisoner. Oh, yeah. Maybe they had even planned an elaborate double suicide, which he did not follow through with. Could he have even been the man from the mirror shop with whom she was overheard having an argument? Of course, this theory and here's the problem with it, unlike the other ones, which have some basis in facts surrounding the case, this theory is pure speculation. Plus,
01:11:08
Speaker
She was seen with several men around Bergen and not just one. Okay. I know I presented problems with all of the theories, but Maggie, what are your thoughts? I think this is honestly one that I don't know that I can stand behind any of them in 100% confidence.
01:11:38
Speaker
I like bits and pieces of several of them, but I don't think any of them really fit. I think the third theory, the spy theory, is the easiest to manipulate to make it fit, but I'm still not 100% convinced. I'm with you. I think of all of the theories, that one, you don't have to stretch as many of the details to make it believable.
01:12:06
Speaker
Perhaps the oddest recollection of all didn't come until 48 years after the woman's death. Kettle Kversoy met with law enforcement, upset with himself that he hadn't reported before what he recalled seeing all those years ago. He said he'd been hiking Isdal Valley all morning and had seen no other hikers. That is, until he saw several people walking toward him.
01:12:34
Speaker
He was heading back to Bergen and they were heading toward the valley. He saw a woman with dark hair followed by two men with dark hair about three feet behind her. They were noticeable because he said none of them were dressed for an outdoor hike. He can see her face all these years later, just as vividly. He remembers that she looked at him and seemed as though she was about to say something to him, but stopped herself, looked behind her at the men.
01:13:04
Speaker
and kept walking. He told law enforcement that he was sure she knew they were, quote, going after her, end quote. He had wanted to go to the police back then, but he'd convinced himself that he would sound crazy going to file a report over a look that someone gave. Later, that man had gone to a friend of his who was a police officer with the story.
01:13:30
Speaker
only to have his friend tell him that the case went beyond Bergen because it was an international case. And that would likely never be solved. Was his friend correct? Or would that one small clue help move the investigation in the right direction? He had to find out. His conscience over the years forced him to tell his account, even if it wouldn't make a difference in the end.
01:13:58
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, it's obvious that there is so much to this case that we don't know. However, if we look at the small minutiae, there are details that we can back up with clues.
01:14:10
Speaker
No matter which theory seems most likely, using science, it's likely that the woman was around 40 to 45 years old and that she'd been raised in France or near France. We know that she came to Norway with a minimum of eight or nine different aliases. She wore stylish clothing, had access to money, was well-traveled, had a distinctive look and smell, that she spoke at least four languages, French, Flemish, German, and English,
01:14:40
Speaker
and that she had the ability to disappear without family searching for her. In a speech given by the priest at her funeral, he compared the unknown isdall woman with an unknown woman in the Bible. Proverbs chapter five, verses three through five, describe a strange woman. Quote, for the lips of a strange woman drop as a honeycomb and her mouth is smoother than oil.
01:15:06
Speaker
But her end is bitter wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword. Her feet go down to death." While the Isdal woman's end was bitter, it doesn't mean the end of her story has to be.
Conclusion and Listener Call to Action
01:15:23
Speaker
Even if we don't know who the woman became, someone must know who she once was. Someone lost a daughter. She belonged to a family at some point.
01:15:35
Speaker
Even her dental procedures were unique enough that they could, with additional focus and effort, lead to future answers. The investigation has not done, Sleuthhounds, and so our telling of her story to others shouldn't be either.
01:15:51
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:16:20
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
01:16:44
Speaker
The previous episode was created using Zencaster. Use the coupon code linked in our show notes to start podcasting today.