Transcript
Speaker: Hello everyone and welcome to a very special bonus episode. i bet you weren't expecting this today, but but we have been planning this for a few months now and we've been very excited to actually do this one because it's a little... outside of our normal fiber arts topic discussion, but it's something that we had talked about that we realized we actually share um a common connection with. And we were like, oh my God, should we should we do a bonus episode about this? Yes, absolutely, we should. So here we are today, finally doing it.
Speaker: Today, we are going to be talking about one of our favorite movies, Black Swan. Starring Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis. And you may notice that we are, of course, wearing our own little homages to them. I've got my little white ribbed tank top here. And Andrew's wearing his black sheer see-through tank top there. Very white swan and black swan of us. So we decided, you know, we'll go with that theme. So...
Speaker: um I'm going to actually toss it over to Andrew and say, so Andrew, why is it that you think that we like got so excited about wanting to do this movie review for our bonus episode?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I mean, in all the like planning that we did for season one, we just started to notice like certain like characteristics about each other. Like when it was like time to make plans to record or like,
Speaker: I don't know, like do like the small aspects of planning. We just noticed that like Kelly was really meticulous and like wanting to like have everything perfect. And I, on the other hand, would just be like, I think it's fine.
Speaker: Like, I think we're good. Um, ah and so then like a lot of things like that kept happening. And so then ah i forget actually who made the first comparison, but we were like, wow, I feel like this is like, you're the Kelly, you're the white swan of this. And I'm like the black swan. Like I just show up and I'm like, yeah, I'm cool. I'm chill. cool.
Speaker: ready to do it. And then Kelly's like, I'm obsessing over it. It has to be perfect. It needs to be exactly right. And so that's why I am like here in the the black tank top and Kelly's wearing the white tank top as like our, um the characters we most relate with ah from the movie.
Speaker: Yeah, i I actually, okay, that makes a lot of sense because you're right. Like, I actually think I was the one who first made the comparison and said, like, I don't know if you know this, but have you ever seen the movie Black Swan? Well, I feel a lot like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And you immediately came back in a voice message and was just like, do I know Black Swan? I love Black Swan. That movie is amazing. So then we both just like,
Speaker: fangirled about it and we were like should we should we do an episode about black swan and like as soon as especially we related to the fact that you know i really did emulate a lot of natalie portman's character nina whereas you emulated a lot of mila kunis's character lily in the way we approached a lot of things with the podcast yeah but it actually like worked like it worked really really well so we were like oh my god that this is you know very different outcome from the movie i will say yeah well and i don't think that we are like exact replicas of the characters like i did note like in the movie natalie portman's character nina is like very timid and shy and i was like kelly is not that like for sure like kelly is very like bubbly and like over the top and like that could never be nina but it's mostly about like when it comes to like your pattern design or like any of your fiber art stuff i feel like you were like uh spend a lot of time working on stuff and like getting it exactly right and it's not that i don't do that but it's just like sometimes it like even this tank top that you're wearing right now like you and i both know how much effort you put into making this and like It's not exactly perfectly white. I need to find out how to bleach it. And like, what if I get a whole nother color of white? And this is not the first tank top, is it?
Speaker: No, it's not. i I had to redesign it. I got new yarn. I did do all the things you said. And even today i was thinking, you know, there's a few things I could probably do to modify but this part for like the powder ball because I'm going make a pattern for it. So yes. And it's like, but then you are like, okay, so I have this idea for what I'm going to do for my tank top. And then when you finally revealed what it was, I was so pissed off. I was. I had to believe this.
Speaker: Okay, well, I have to explain a little bit about that because you might not have noticed. but Okay, so years ago, I made a tank top just like this in a gray color. And I thought that I could over dye it to be black because I didn't feel like making a tank top. But it was not that successful.
Speaker: And this is the tank top that I showed you, Kelly, before. Oh, okay. Okay. It just didn't stay very black. So actually I did make this from scratch, but it did only take two weeks to make. It's like a very nice like black cashmere.
Speaker: um It's like a knitted pattern, which I also thought was really nice because mine is knit and yours is crochet. Yeah. um So it's kind of like, you know, emulates even like our own fiber arts. Yeah.
Speaker: that's That's fair. Okay, all right. So then I do feel at least a little bit better, but the fact that it still took you only two weeks to do, like, what the heck? What the heck? with ah No. It still felt like it took forever for me. I was like, gosh, I want to just like be done with this.
Speaker: Well, in general, I think that that definitely brings in the fact that like in the film... Nina, the character that i most identify with, like, obsesses and works and practices and all this stuff in and order to make it as perfect as possible. And then one of the my favorite lines in the whole thing is he's like, you know, look at her.
Speaker: Imprecise, yes, but effortless. Everyone basically enjoys watching her because she's not trying too much. She's not faking it. So if you, you didn't put... a lot of the effort, you relied a lot on your skills and then just allowed it to naturally come through in your work, which I think very much like shows you're like your tank top looks fabulous. Like I really like the way that it looks just like I would like to think that you think mine looks great.
Speaker: It does look good. yeah Okay, good. Thank you. i need the compliments because I need the applause. I need external validation just like Nina always did. Yeah. as much And it's just like, you know, the white swan was never happy until she heard the applause from the crowd.
Speaker: That's what like sent her. Oh my, god you're right, because you're right, like in that moment. Okay, by the way, spoiler alert for those of you who haven't seen this movie from 2010. you have not seen a movie that's been out for 16 years, yes, this is a spoiler alert. Yeah, yes. So um she, in the end, like in the performance, she finally performs her most perfect scene, which she had been angling for for throughout the entire movie. And she's finally able to like really smile. Like you can see that happiness on her face as she's lying there, bleeding out on stage, dying. She's like, I fulfilled it. I was perfect. Like it was perfectly, it was everything she built it up to be. And she had to sacrifice her entire being to do it. And I was just like, Oh my God, yes, that is the correct thing to do. Right? Yes. Yeah. I laughed when that happened. So this is like really jumping ahead to the end of the movie. But yeah yeah at the end when she's like laying there bleeding and she's like, I was perfect.
Speaker: I laughed because I thought of you. And I was like, this is literally like what Kelly would do. Like work tirelessly on something and then like it comes out perfect. And that's exactly what you wanted.
Speaker: And then you would just lay there and like bleed out and be like, I don't even care because I was perfect. yeah hey It was perfect, so I don't even care. yeah like yeah okay What's funny about that is you're laughing about that part, but actually one of the things that I like most saw in... you like when you Oh my God. How I was able to connect like Lily and you, really,
Speaker: was um when she basically barges into the bathroom and is like, you know, oh, my God, hey, like, blah, bla blah. Like, you just came in and she was like, oh, I recognize you and I, like, you know, admire you and like all that stuff. And then she's like changing out of her underwear and like, you know, doing all this stuff. It's like just yeah super casual, super relaxed and everything like that. And it's like because she's about to basically go on a date like she's going to go like, look, have a great time. Like she's going to do all of this stuff like she's just living her best life and she's popular and all of that stuff.
Speaker: And I was just like, I'm just sitting there staring in awe like I am. wait, how is this happening? Like you're just, it's so easy for you. Like you're so relaxed and I just could never think to be that way. That was a lot of like, when i first was interacting with you online, i was like, oh, he doesn't have any trouble with like, you know, people following him and like, you know, getting followers and, you know, posting things on the internet. And I'm over here being like, oh my God, I'm thinking through like every post and every reel and like, you know, got to gain audience, all this stuff. And it's like, oh my God, but like, he's not even having to really try, at least like from the external view. was like, oh my gosh, you're just, you're just popular. Just like Billy. So I was like, yay! Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, I mean, well, that is funny because, um you know, I don't always feel like as free as Lily does. You know, like I also feel like I put in like obsessive amounts of work when it's like not necessary. Like you remember that one time I told you I spent like 12 hours working on a reel and it like not that it like didn't get like.
Speaker: spread or like it just didn't do as well as I thought it would and I just like had too high of an expectation and then like you know like normally like I'm like I always think back to like that stinking sweater reel that I made that did so well. And so I'm like, that's like my standard of like, wow, something went viral for me.
Speaker: And so like nothing else has ever gone like that viral. And so like when I spent 12 hours working on something, thinking it was going to go viral and then it didn't. And I was like, well, well that was a huge waste of time. Yeah.
Speaker: So I imagine that you were probably like, well, then I know now don't put in that level of effort expecting something to return. Just be like, just throw together my 10 minute video that does better. And you're like, there we go.
Speaker: Yeah. Just totally black swan it, throw everything together and just like release. And then like some of those are like the more popular ones that I've made. so I'm like, Yeah, just like, doesn't even matter. doesn't have to be like exact, precise or anything.
Speaker: Just throw something out. I kind of like how Nina started to embrace that side as well as she's doing her transformation into the black Swan and does finally give the best, like effortless performance as the black Swan on stage. um It's kind of like when I do that same thing, like I've also done that where I'm like, you know what? I just feel like posting a reel or posting something.
Speaker: I'm not going to put a ton of effort into it. I was like, I just, just to get something out there. And then it winds up doing super well. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. Okay. So there we go. Sometimes, Truly the effortless version is better than the obsessed perfect perfect version. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think like, yeah. Like watching the movie, like watching her do all her rehearsals. I just wanted to be like, girl, loosen up. Like you're so like tight and like constrained, you know, like watching her do the same dance over and over again. Like I can understand why the director is like,
Speaker: You know, like, great, you know the moves, but like, loosen up. Like, you're so like, hinged and like, but you know, like, Jesus, like breathe, girl. Yeah, her, well, I mean, there was a lot of like that imagery of like her not really being able to breathe. Everything was constricted. Like that scene where they're like pushing into her diaphragm and like, you know, having her like do all this stuff, like the medical examination basically and like fixing, like, everything was locked up and they had to like loosen and force it. Oh, like her foot?
Speaker: Yes. Oh my God. Like seeing all that. I was like, you know, as you were saying that I was like, Oh my God, that's like my stitches. My stitches are tight like that. Um, oh yeah like this. Okay. ah so Like how like my tank top actually I had to block it very aggressively to relax these stitches because it was not this relaxed when I first made it. It was very tight. So I loosened it up through the blocking process and had to basically force it and now it's like relaxed and everything just like my stitches and your stitches are loose.
Speaker: Just like Lily. Damn, not calling Lily loose. Hey, if want to go down the path of who's loose and who's not, we can go down that path. but Oh, okay. I'm sure we could. Yes. For this bonus episode. No, let's do some of that for a little bit later for, you know, like some, maybe like eventually maybe a Patreon. I don't know.
Speaker: Okay. but Well, I have a question for you about the movie. Cause this one thing that kept coming up in my mind as I was watching it, cause I kind of forgot how like, grotesque it is. Like, it's... I wouldn't say it's like a scary movie, but I was honestly like, do you think that this is a horror movie?
Speaker: Okay, so... When I first saw it, i knew it was going to be kind of dark, but yeah i was thinking more along the lines of like psychological thriller, less than like a horror. so like horror to me is literally just for the scares. Like it the whole point of it is it's supposed to be a constant, you're in a state of fear.
Speaker: Whereas I think a psychological thriller is supposed to have fearful moments, just like in the pathway of your mind, there are nightmares, but there's also times when you're like, you're relieved from that. There's like moments where you get to see beautiful things, like things are calm, things are tranquil. So it does move up and down, but you're still kind of always on edge, not because you're worried about being scared, but because you're worried about like losing that like beautiful moment in favor of like a darker moment or you're like, Oh, things seem to be improving now, but now wait, hold on. That's taken away because of, you know, XYZ or things beyond our control. um
Speaker: Like, yeah. And then some of the grotesque moments. Yeah, I think those were definitely for like shock value. But also, I mean, realistically, I know that that's what a lot of dancers go through. Like they put their bodies through so much. So they're just showing some of the reality of being a dancer, like the sacrifice you make for your art. Yeah.
Speaker: And so I think they were like, this is just reality. This isn't meant to be gross or shocking. This is just supposed to be, this is behind the scenes of the beauty. Yeah. Well, you cannot say that some of that was not meant to be disgusting on purpose. Like the hangnail scene is the worst scene in the entire movie. And when you really watch it, I did not look away this time. I usually look away. But if you really watch it, you can see she's pulling back like a lot, a lot of skin. And like when she looks at it again, there's nothing there.
Speaker: Yeah. Like, so it's like ah she probably like had a hangnail and like pulled it. And like, I don't know, maybe that was supposed to represent like the pain she felt. Or, like, sure her hands were, like, always fucking bleeding.
Speaker: So, like, I don't know. Like, she just, like, constantly had, like, things pulling off of herself and, like, blood everywhere. So, I don't know, like, where that was going. But that was, like, extra on purpose. Like, if if you watch that and are not disgusted by the hangnail scene, then, like...
Speaker: I don't know. You need some help, I think. Okay, so you say that, but actually one of the symptoms of people who are highly anxious, they pick at their nails. Like that is what they do. um Some of them to the point where they bleed. like they are Like they are literally destroying their nails, biting them, chewing them, all that stuff. Like I've done that before myself.
Speaker: But um never to that point. Like when she was pulling it that way back, I'm like, no, no, no, no. She peeled it down her whole finger. i know I was like, what the hell? I was like, girl, pull it the other way. If you're going to pull at it, at least pull it the other way to or bite it off or something. But she's like, whip it off. Don't pull it at all. Oh, yeah. like Trim it. what i ah Oh, speaking of trimming, like I was like, girl, get some nail clippers. What is the deal with these scissors that your mom is cutting you with? Like what the, like. Yeah. Okay. i wrote i So I took notes, very white swan on me. But I wrote in my notes, like clipping nails with scissors is crazy. Like this is 2010. Nail clippers exist.
Speaker: Like yeah what, what the hell? yeah I agree that's fine clip your nails all the way down to the quick like whatever like clip them as far down as you want but use a nail clipper i don't feel bad for you at all that you cut yourself while cutting your nails because like you're an idiot yeah i Yeah, I mean, I do. Okay, well, seeing as how she's my character, Nina, I'm going to show that there is a little sympathy because ah she is internalizing a lot of things happening to her externally, like how her mom raised her.
Speaker: And then how she lets herself be treated by fellow dancers, how she allows herself to be treated by the director. And she like has such major, almost like Stockholm syndrome yeah where she's like, she admires him and she's like, he's, he's brilliant and all this stuff. And it's like, but she doesn't, she lets that block the fact that he's abusive. And yeah,
Speaker: takes advantage of the dancers like he he's he's a sexual predator like i mean like at the end of the day that is what he is because he does that with ah like as many of the dancers that he can including her and yeah and then like mila or like lily comes through and okay not to bash her but like there is that one scene where she and her friends do drug nina's drink That's true.
Speaker: It is a problem that she should not do that. Like 100%. Yeah. um but She was another representation of like an external force trying to force her into doing something that she wanted.
Speaker: But I think what's interesting about that one scene is that that's finally a time when she's not picking at herself. She's not scratching herself. She's not doing any of that stuff. And she sees it's about to happen, but then she's like, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and accept it. I'm making that choice. This is her first moment where she actually gets to make a choice and she allows herself to kind of loosen up.
Speaker: So. That is true. Cause she did see them drug the drink. She saw them like open up the, the pill and put it in her drink and she still chose to drink it anyway. So like, yeah, it's still messed up of Mila's character to do that. But then on the other hand, like,
Speaker: Nina really needed to loosen up. And that is like, i have another talking point that I thought would be really fascinating to discuss. And that is like, okay. So it seems like the director and Lily were kind of working like in tandem to get her to loosen up one way or another. And my thought is like,
Speaker: Were they working together? Like, do you think the director tasked Lily with helping Nina loosen up? Or do you think that they just so happened to both be working on loosening her up?
Speaker: Because, okay, think about this. Like, in the end scene, okay, like, Lily gets cast as the alternate. By the director. So she clearly also has an in with the director. And we know how like he gets his connections with the girls. Like he abuses them and like takes advantage of them. And there is a scene where it's like in kind of like her psychosis at the end. She sees Lily and the director fucking.
Speaker: right Yeah. Like in the dark stage room. Yeah. Yes. And like, is that real? Like if that were real, could it be that the two of them were working together the whole time and like, like forcing Nina to go through this psychosis?
Speaker: Like, do you think that they psychologically abused her just to make her better as the queen swan? oh my god Okay, well, I never thought of that. But now I'm considering it because it's just messed up enough that that would be the... Okay, they're like, they're playing in her mind and being like, how do we get her to loosen up?
Speaker: The only reason I would say no to that is because they had a more efficient answer, which is kick her off and move Mila Kunis' character, move Lily into the role. That was, I think, really what it was. That's true. They could have been doing it either to try to loosen her up to improve the performance, or they have been doing it to get her to move out on her own so that it couldn't be a matter of, you know, just kicked her out for no reason. Like, she wouldn't be able and serve her. Because, like, on the realistic side, you know...
Speaker: Yeah. Maybe they were messing with her in on purpose to do that, but then maybe Lily. Okay. So here's my thing. I still like Lily as a character, even though she did do problematic.
Speaker: She was the one that had that free spirit that like actually helped her get out of it um And i think maybe she did want her to loosen up and become better at the role because she did respect and admire her as a performer. Like,
Speaker: We forget that it's like, you know, she's new to this area, but she's probably heard of Nina because Nina prior to this, like, i mean, she'd been with the dance company that she had done performances. She probably was an alternate at one point herself. Like she was obviously very well known.
Speaker: And so um i think Lily still had that level of respect for her, but she was like, but I want to help you out. And this is my way of helping you out by making you become this like crazy loose ah person. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, okay. What about at the very end? Like, okay, it's like, you know, the mom, like, first of all, the mom is horrible. I have to address that. Like, mom is awful. And I love this. Like, I know we talked about this off camera, but like the scene where she gets that cake and then ah Nina doesn't want to eat the cake. And then the mom's like, fine, then it's garbage. I love that part because i it's like, for me, when I'm making something like knitting or something and it doesn't like work out well on my first attempt, I'm like, well, then it's garbage. Like, I don't want to work on it then. ah ah ah You know, girl, of all people, i you know, I'm that way too. Where I'm like, all right. And that swatch goes right the trash. like yeah ah Oh anyway, like, it
Speaker: I was going to say, like, the the mom is, like, holding Nina hostage on the night of the performance, but she ends up, like, getting out of the room and, like, showing up last minute. And then, like, they've already said that Mila is going to do the performance. Lily, she's going to, she's the alternate, so she's going to, like, take her place because Nina wasn't there.
Speaker: But then she shows up and she starts doing her makeup. And ah Lily is like, what the heck? Like she was supposed to not be here. And so it like kind of makes you question whether Lily was doing some of this stuff on purpose because she actually wanted the role.
Speaker: You know what I mean? Like she she seemed like kind of upset that she actually showed up. Yeah, i I did note that too, because I think, okay, well, I think two things can be true. I think on the one hand, she was prepared to simply be the alternate, but it's kind of one of those things where it's like, okay, well now I've been told I'm going to be stepping into the role tonight.
Speaker: And then you find out, nevermind, it's been ripped away. i imagine that there's just a lot of disappointment that comes with that. I don't think she was necessarily angry Well, I mean, she would have been angry at Nina for showing up because she's like, well, now I don't get to do this. But then on yeah top of that, she was like, well, I've been mentally preparing to do this. And now suddenly I've got to switch around again and blah, blah, blah. It's like, I think maybe mean that could also be a justification for it. I don't think necessarily she was trying to steal the role. Yeah. But I don't. guess like. meat filtered Maybe she wasn't a not trying.
Speaker: Right. sorry like ah Well, I was going to say, like, if you filter it through Nina's lens, which is like, like the whole movie is kind of like you're getting Nina's perspective for a lot of it.
Speaker: And like, and even like the way that it's filmed is very like close up. Like you're literally following her for a lot of the movie. So I'm almost wondering if like, maybe in real life, Lily's reaction was not like, oh, you showed up, but maybe that's just how she interpreted it. And so that's like how they chose to present it in the film.
Speaker: Oh, okay. Yeah. Cause I mean, you're, you're right. Like, cause a lot of those scenes, like, with um her mom with the director with everybody like that it's like anytime it was really close up it was very much like you were seeing it through her lens and then anytime it was farther away you got to see it in more like oh this is a much more casual regular interaction i mean not to say that there weren't still the problems like the director and the mother were both still very horrible to her But obviously, just like with any, I would think, like, you know, abuse victim like Nina, she is internalized. And it's like it's become this very nightmarish, grotesque thing because, you know, she sees the director transforming into that dark sorcerer, like from. the Yeah, true. know Yeah. And it's like and her mom becomes this kind of like. haunting nightmare with like the wild hair and everything like that. And a lot of those shadowy scenes and like when she's drawing and she's like freaking out, it's like all the weird stuff. It's like, yeah she's projecting how she sees these people and you see it through her lens when you are so close behind. So I think that that's very much a fair point. I think maybe her reaction was amplified as like, Oh my God, like I was supposed to step into this role and is like a self-fulfilling thing. She was thinking the whole time.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, which then leads into that scene, that famous one where she's in the dressing room and Lily is there dressed as the black swan and she's like, you can't handle it. I'm here to take over. You know, it's like,
Speaker: was that actually Lily there or was that just her playing this scene out in her head again? yeah She was like, I'm, um I think this is what's happening. So this is what my brain is tricking me into thinking. What do you think about that?
Speaker: I'm so glad that you brought that up because I was going to make a point about Lily. So yes, Lily, she shows up, she's wearing the black swan stuff. And I'm pretty sure Nina was still in white swan or like she had just done her first black swan,
Speaker: dance in the number or something it was like during the performance um it was and then she wasn't she hadn't sorry i just she wasn't a black swan yet because she that performance hadn't happened yet she had been the white swan and she had fallen at that point like she had fallen right after she fell and smacked her knee yeah and so that's when they were like okay you're clearly out of this okay sorry sorry go on go on yeah In that scene, Lily comes in and ah she's like in the black. Actually, she's already in the dressing room.
Speaker: She's in Nina's dressing room as the black swan when Nina comes in. And then it leads to like an altercation. And then Nina shoves Lily into a mirror and the mirror breaks and she grabs ah Nina, grabs a shard from the mirror and stabs Lily with it. And she dies. She like bleeds out and dies.
Speaker: um so then she like drags lily's body to the bathroom and then it's just like whatever i'm gonna go back on stage and do what i'm supposed to do but then like she does all of that and then she comes back and there's a bunch of blood on the floor so she just puts a towel there and then there's a knock on the door and it's lily and lily is dressed as a white swan and now at this point ah Nina is dressed as a black swan.
Speaker: So yeah, I, I feel like it's kind of like representation of her. Like she is actually fully becoming the black swan now. And now she's seeing like what she used to be. It's like she, the whole movie, she was looking at Lily of like what she could be, what she could become and all of that. And then at the end she sees,
Speaker: Lily as a white swan it's almost like looking at what she was and like this monster that she's become because now she's like how is Lily alive like I just killed her and so she goes to this like whole psychosis and like it's like kind of like freaking out but then it's like the final performance is like right around the corner and I don't know. It it makes me question like how much of that is real. like Obviously, she didn't kill Lily.
Speaker: But then the bigger question is, like is Lily even real? Lily a real character? or is Lily just like a fantasy that she's had the whole movie?
Speaker: like is Does she even exist? Okay, that is a good point. But I'm going to say that, yes, I think Lily does exist. But I think she was like a person that that Nina focused She hyper focused on yeah and was like, she is the person is then where she's projecting all of her own internal problems and so then sometimes the character of Lily is appearing in places where the real Lily was not there like for instance the infamous lesbian sex scene where she has locked her mother out and she's like you know has this like really intense like find like this erupting moment like literally you're seeing
Speaker: feather goosebumps like all throughout her body and all that's happening and then she transforms into the dark version of herself like she's like she really just had a very intense masturbation session but um she was drunk and high and healing in herself and then she finds out later that Lily was never there so then she's like wait a minute but it felt very very real so who's to say that those other instances where it feels intense and feels really in fact I think the more intense the scenario, the more we should question how real it is because that to me, I'm like, that is her. It's too intense. It's too intense to be real. So the, the fight scene, the murder scene, the like all of that stuff. I think yeah that was when like Lily was a fake, like she was a figment of her imagination, but it's just like normal scenes where they're just like rehearsing or things like that. I think, oh yeah, I think Lily was still a real person at that point.
Speaker: Yeah. I think the only reason I question it is just because like, it seems like Lily is the only person that Nina really interacts with. Like you don't really see much of the other dancers throughout the whole movie, except the very beginning.
Speaker: But like Lily is the only one she constantly interacts with. So you just have to kind of question like, like what is real, especially because she has had so many like intense moments that ended up not being real.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's like, what is it even real or not? Like, yeah, I don't know. It's just like kind of like trippy for me to think about. Yeah. And the only other person that I would say that Lily had interactions with that we see on camera a whole lot is the director.
Speaker: Right. And which we know that Nina already. She also hyper fixates on him. Yeah, so like she probably is just like, these are just two characters playing roles in her imagination.
Speaker: even though they are real people in real life, and that's like when we see those intense moments with them, that that's like what's happening. yeah Yeah. That's really cool. that Okay. So here's the thing. This is what I freaking loved about this movie is the number of layers and how you still just do not ever get to a final answer because it took me a long time to even realize I was like, okay, so why is she bleeding all of a sudden there at the end? And she has that shard of mirror. And I was like, oh, my God, it took me a long time to realize it's because she stabbed herself with it.
Speaker: Right. Like, so when she feels like she's stabbing, it's my turn, you know, like something like that. It's like it's because she's literally stabbing herself because that was all herself that whole time. She was fighting an internal battle. um Right.
Speaker: that we see on screen. But yeah the the thing with that is like, okay, I get it that like for her to be the perfect black swan, she needed to like force herself to be imperfect. And the only way that she could think to do that is to stab herself.
Speaker: So like, I get that. But she was bleeding so much in the dressing room. There was already big ass red stain on her white outfit in the dressing room.
Speaker: cut to the main stage, perfectly white outfit. And then she only starts bleeding. And mind you, a lot of lifts, like her abdomen was like stretched out and some of those like big lifts.
Speaker: Yeah. And like, that's where the stab wound was, but she only started bleeding at the top of the stage or the, the, like the staircase or the ramp yeah where she jump where she like ah jumps. Yeah.
Speaker: That's the only part where she actually started bleeding. But I was like, girl, you were bleeding in the dressing room. Like, ah how yeah how did you keep all that blood in until you needed to release it? Yeah, see, and I... Okay, to that part, I don't... I could not tell you, like, how. I didn't say it's because, like, well, because...
Speaker: if that was there the whole time, like would the other people on the stage have not noticed what they have been like, this is concerning. There's blood on your thing. It's like, so I don't think that the whiteness was an imagination. I don't think like,
Speaker: that was just a deception to trick us. um I think the bleeding out really did start at that time. And I don't, I couldn't answer. I wouldn't know how that managed to happen that way.
Speaker: What if she like, like in the dressing room when she stabbed herself, like since there's already like a blur of reality, like what if that was just her like envisioning what needs to happen?
Speaker: And like, maybe she didn't actually stab herself until later. maybe know to be Like maybe she had the shard like right before she went out or something. Because her outfit was already bloody in the dressing room.
Speaker: for Yes, that's true. Yeah. So then, so what you're saying is maybe she didn't actually stab herself in that fight scene because she survived that whole time. She did the black swan dance. She did that full white swan. much after that Yeah, exactly. and it's like, and act okay. Okay. So you say she, there was a lot of blood, but but but, but, but, but remember when she pulls that towel away, it opens up the bathroom door after seeing Lily at the door. Yeah. There's no blood. So all of that was in her head. So actually, i don't think maybe she didn't actually stab herself in that moment, but she was inspired to do that, to make that final performance perfect. Cause she like, like you said, she had that vision. She was like, that had to happen.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm of like, I've never thought of it like that, but like now that we're talking about it, I'm like, that seems like one of the only logical things. Ways that she like.
Speaker: She literally. She basically died on cue. So like she she runs up that ramp. She starts bleeding out. She jumps over. She falls onto the mattress. And she hears the crowd like cheering for her. And she's like finally happy.
Speaker: And she's. That's when she starts really bleeding. The whole cast comes over to her. And they're like clapping for her. And then they realize like something is like really wrong. And they're like. yeah What did you do? What did you do? And she's like.
Speaker: i did it. I was perfect. And then like dies, presumably, presumably dies. Yes. I mean, I think that we're left to, because like, that's how the actual Swan Lake ends is that. oh yeah. so I know that like a lot of it, I mean, I've never actually seen Swan Lake, but I know that a lot of the scenes are paralleling things that happen in the actual ballet. So she, I i think I like to believe that she's not like to, I do believe that she actually does die in the end. She's probably taken to the hospital, but she's like, but I mean, she's suffered a severe abdomen wound and there's just no way, like there's no way. um
Speaker: And what I found really interesting about that was it's like, That was all happening. And the last thing you hear as it goes to the credits is you're still hearing that audience clapping so loudly. Because in the end, yeah she was right. That was a perfect performance.
Speaker: yeah How much more realistic can you get of a performance than actually dying on stage? like Yeah. It says my character dies, so I guess just, you know... Take that method acting to the fullest extent. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's also, i mean, I think that was to her maybe the symbol of like ultimate control. Like she was like, all these people have controlled me all my life. It's like, I have control over this. Like I've,
Speaker: seen it in my head. i know what I have to do. I'm going to do this and it's going to be on my terms. I leave on this and I am now ending my life and my career on the perfect climax. Like I will never be able to top this performance and nor will I have to, because now I'm gone. And so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Speaker: if She was messed up. Yeah, yeah. Very... Like, she she needed some help, some therapy, for sure. Like, for her to, like, believe that that was the only way for her to get it perfect is crazy.
Speaker: yeah I mean, literally, yes. Yeah. Oh my goodness. But I mean, overall, like I thought it was also like very beautifully done. Like I know it was very dark, very twisted, very like, you know, grotesque in a lot of places. But I was like yeah the actual ballet numbers, the artistry, like the starkness of like the black and white. But there was like softness, but then also harshness that they kept like with like the different lighting and like sometimes the white was very ethereal. Sometimes it was very harsh lighting like white.
Speaker: And the same thing with the darkness. Sometimes the darkness was very soothing and peaceful or romantic almost like yes yeah scene um yeah yeah really low lighting but it's like you know how many of us have been in scenarios where we're like oh my gosh this was so passionate and dark and like all that stuff um yeah so i just thought really really well done so like as a person who does art like i do fiber arts I appreciated it as cinema cinematography, like the actual acting in it, the ballet in it, the music and soundtrack, like the way it makes you think, like everything about it. Yeah. Like this is art. I am an artist experiencing art. And it was just amazing.
Speaker: Yeah. And it was a movie about art, like dance. So that that just like makes it even better. i agree. i think I think one of my favorite things watching it this round, like i was really paying attention and i love, like I mentioned this before, like the way that it's filmed, it's almost like it's a VR experience or something. Like you really feel like you're in the movie. Like you're going to these places with her. Like a lot of the scenes are just like, all you see is her bun from the back.
Speaker: Which, by the way, whoever did the hair on that movie, great job. Because I don't know how you get the hair to stay that tight on all of their heads. Amazing. Exactly. Yes. you they They deserve two Oscars. Yes. but Yeah, I mean, like, you're literally like, you're it's almost like you're walking right behind her because you see the back of her head and they're just like following her.
Speaker: um And then like a lot of the scenes are like filmed really close up. Like all you see are people's heads. Like you don't even see their whole body. And so it almost feels like you're talking to them because when you are talking to someone, you're looking at their face. not Yeah. That's all you can see in some of these scenes is like the director's face and Nina's face. And so you feel like you're the third person there with them.
Speaker: thought was really amazing. You know, that is, ah that's great insight because you're right. Like that is what it definitely feels like. You're very much in that moment. And they had a lot of like stable camera, but then they also had a lot of like the shaking camera, like you're moving with them. So like you got a good balance of those two.
Speaker: Yeah. And so, oh my, that like added to that realism. it was so, so freaking good. Yes. Okay. Yes. I have one more point that I feel like we need to talk about. We actually have to talk about this before we wrap.
Speaker: And that is so like, at least I don't know how much more of like popular culture stuff there is, but we have to talk about the scene right after she first gets cast. She goes to the bathroom. She calls her mom and she's like, Oh my God, I got the queen swan. She comes out of the bathroom and someone has written on the mirror in lipstick whore.
Speaker: And she comes out the bathroom stall and she's frantically wiping it off the mirror. And that has become like a very popular gif in like social media. And like everyone's just like wiping whore off the mirror. That's a classic thing to have come from this movie.
Speaker: i feel like there were more, but um I don't know. That's like probably the top one. Okay, yeah. i First of all, I love that scene. I'm always just like, who?
Speaker: Literally, I know who it was in my mind. I'm like, it's that one like bitch who, well, okay. So do you remember the one? It's like, you know, she gave her that look was just like, what? And she was like, oh congratulations.
Speaker: And the girl was like, oh, she got all excited. And then she comes and is like, is this going to be some kind of sick joke? Oh, yeah. yeah because it turned out to be actually like, you know, she got cast. I think it was her because I think like she was the most resentful. Yeah. Everyone else was just like, congratulations. Yeah. well Yeah. yeah Yeah. But yeah, I'm like super like, she took that time, came in that bathroom and wrote, whore. Which means like she knew that she was in that stall.
Speaker: Like they knew whoever did it knew that she was in that stall and would see it. Yeah. Cause yeah. And they were like, and they knew that she was by herself and that she was eventually going be coming out and that's what she was going to see. So they were stalking her. Like they were. yeah Yeah. I'm just saying like, you know, this made me yeah like watching the movie the first time around, I was like, everyone in this industry is so mean, like nobody's friends or anything watching it the second time around. I actually did notice a lot more scenes where people were more compassionate and caring and Like, you know, when they found out about like, I forget her actual name. Wynonna Ryder's character, Beth. Yeah. When she like was in the hospital after getting hit by a car, they were all very like, like shocked and devastated. Like, oh my God, like this is so terrible, blah, blah, blah. Like yeah they actually were almost like family-like.
Speaker: But because most of the time we're only seeing the negative things, I missed a lot of that my first time watching. So, you know. If you also think about it, like, we only really see from Nina's perspective. And Nina is very isolated herself. Like, she is, like, at one point getting private lessons to, like, become a better Black Swan and, like, practicing for hours and hours and, like, no one else is around. But then, like, there's one point...
Speaker: she walks into like the common dressing area and like everyone is buddy, buddy. Like everyone's gathered around Lily and they're like, wow, look who finally decided to grace us with her presence. But like everyone there is friends.
Speaker: So I think part of it is also just like Nina herself is, is like pulled away from the rest of the group. And so like, she's just like isolated herself because she wants to be so much of a perfectionist that she doesn't like take the time to actually get to know the other girls.
Speaker: So even though they seem like kind of bitchy, I'm like, maybe they're not. And maybe Nina is just like, like out of it, you know, she's not in the loop. That's true. And that's also, I know like sometimes,
Speaker: something that can happen with people who are victims of abuse is that they isolate because they feel like they can't have those connections because they're not allowed to have those connections because the focus, like her mom was like, your job is to become perfect. Like you are to become the ballerina I was meant to be.
Speaker: So ah wow that actually like makes a lot of sense why it's like they're unfriendly because she herself is isolated from them, not because she can't be friends with Yeah. Oh my God. So you have really helped me. Like I already loved this movie and already had so many feelings and thoughts going into this, but you have really helped me like see so many new perspectives. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is so great. I loved getting to do this episode together. her Yes, girl. You got to go watch it again. Like I i just watched it last night in preparation for this. yeah so because i wanted i watched it months ago knowing we were do this.
Speaker: And then I was like typical black swan fashion. I was like, I'll watch it the night before. ah Very last minute. i is I am glad that I did that because it's all very fresh. And yeah, ah like I felt like I had an expanded perspective. So yeah, this was like really fun to talk about. And like, i don't know, fun episode. Like we, I felt like, I mean, first of all, it's long. much Yeah. much longer than a normal episode but there was just so much to talk about and i wanted to hear your thoughts on like so many different aspects so oh yeah i wanted to hear yours as well so i'm glad that we allowed this we gave space for this movie yeah yeah know that's a reference to a totally different movie or we held space it's that whole thing about holding space whatever doesn't matter moving on but um So yes, this was like ah a not so typical episode of two CCs of fiber arts, but we wanted to surprise all with a bonus episode. So um we are still making preparations for season two that's going to be coming out, I don't know, couple months from now probably.
Speaker: month or so? I don't know. Yeah, I believe but we're shooting sometime in November, but, you know. Yeah. Maybe end of November. Probably season two. So anyway, hope you guys are excited. We're very excited. We've got lots of new things coming, so ah We really can't wait to break that for you. But in the meantime, we hope you enjoyed our commentary on Black Swan. If you haven't seen the movie, definitely go watch the movie so you can kind of like see what we're talking about and let us know in the comments if you agree or if you have any other insights. Like, clearly...
Speaker: Like we could do another episode about this just for how much we love it. And yeah like, we want to hear what you guys think about the movie too. So definitely go watch it or if you've seen it, let us know what you think. And yeah, thanks for joining us for this bonus episode.
Speaker: Yeah. And just so you also make sure you don't miss it when we premiere the second season, make sure you hit that like button and the subscribe. we would very much appreciate it In the meantime, we hope you have wonderful day. Thanks for joining.
Speaker: Yes. Thank you. Bye.
Speaker: Bye.
