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4 Neema Shah | Historical Fiction Author
323 Plays4 years ago
Historical fiction author, Neema Shah tells us about her approach to research and the deep personal connection she has with her debut novel, Kololo Hill. Tune in to hear all about the journey this book took, from inception all the way to publication.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Notes
00:00:00
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:01
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:03
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:06
Speaker
What does it say?
00:00:07
Speaker
I thought it would be a good... I didn't even get the idea.
00:00:12
Speaker
Maybe I can just ask you the question.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going well.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going really well.
Introducing Nima Shah and 'Cololo Hill'
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm Emma.
00:00:25
Speaker
And I'm Jamie, and today we are joined by Nima Shah, the author of Cololo Hill, which has been selected as a top pick for 2021 by Foyles, Daily Mail, The Irish Times and Cosmopolitan.
Setting and Historical Context of 'Cololo Hill'
00:00:37
Speaker
Nima thank you for joining us yeah yeah thank you so much um so your book Kalolo Hill it's set in 1970s Uganda during obviously the brutal regime of Idi Amin and for the listeners do you think you could please give us a quick blurb of your story yeah sure so I mean it starts off in 1972 in Uganda um and it's centered around
00:01:05
Speaker
recently married Asha and her husband Pran, who are forced to leave everything behind except their devastating secrets.
00:01:13
Speaker
It's a personal story in terms of looking at them and their family, but it's obviously set against this real-life backdrop of the Ugandan Asian expulsion.
Challenges During Relocation from Uganda
00:01:23
Speaker
And as you say, so Idi Amin gave 80,000 Ugandan Asians
00:01:29
Speaker
90 days to leave and they were only allowed to take 50 pounds each um out of the country so that's about a thousand pounds each yeah a thousand pounds in today's money apparently which is which is quite frightening even you know accounting for inflation and the rest of it it's just a crazy crazy amount so um
00:01:51
Speaker
The story then moves and it's not a spoiler to say this because it is about also the Ugandan nations in Britain.
00:01:57
Speaker
So it looks at, well, first of all, whether they will get out and if and when they do, what happens next, how they get used to a whole new life in a new country.
Crafting a Narrative: Emotions Over Dry Facts
00:02:08
Speaker
And so that was that was kind of the starting point of the story.
00:02:12
Speaker
And then I just look at all the different the cultural elements.
00:02:15
Speaker
I look at obviously the secrets that they're hiding and what happens around that as well.
00:02:20
Speaker
The devastating secrets.
00:02:21
Speaker
That's devastating.
00:02:22
Speaker
They are, yes.
00:02:23
Speaker
That's the important detail.
00:02:24
Speaker
Yes.
00:02:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:26
Speaker
And that's why I wanted to make sure it wasn't, you know, because with historical fiction, there's always that danger of it becoming quite a dry sort of narrative around this happened and this happened
Nima's Family History and Cultural Influences
00:02:37
Speaker
and this happened.
00:02:37
Speaker
And, you know, it just becomes almost like a news report.
00:02:41
Speaker
So I tried to bring in that emotional element of what,
00:02:45
Speaker
actually happened for individuals and what it might have felt like for anyone to go through something like that.
00:02:51
Speaker
And is it right that your book draws from inspirations of your own life and your family as well?
00:03:00
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:03:01
Speaker
I mean, my, um, grandparents left Gujarat, India in, in World War II to start new lives in, well, they, they left for Kenya and Tanzania, but East Africa has a lot of similar cultural, um, connections, I guess.
00:03:16
Speaker
And so my extended family went to Uganda.
00:03:19
Speaker
Um, and then, you know, my parents came over here and I was born in, in London, but, um,
00:03:26
Speaker
We spent a lot of family holidays, particularly in Kenya.
00:03:29
Speaker
And even though obviously my ancestors are Indian, I feel that Kenya in particular is my second home more so than India.
00:03:37
Speaker
And I didn't go to India until I was in my 20s.
00:03:39
Speaker
My mum never visited India until she was in her 40s.
00:03:42
Speaker
And I wanted to.
00:03:44
Speaker
with the characters, I wanted to sort of bring that culture to life because it is a very unique culture.
00:03:48
Speaker
You know, we have certain Swahili words that have been infused into our Gujarati language.
00:03:54
Speaker
The food as well is a bit of a mix.
00:03:57
Speaker
So we have all of our Gujarati recipes, but we've also got some which are,
00:04:03
Speaker
include things like mog or cassava, which is obviously an East African staple.
00:04:08
Speaker
And then it's sort of Indianized, I suppose.
00:04:10
Speaker
So things like that that I really wanted to bring to life about this culture, which is quite different to those who've come over from the Indian subcontinent.
Research and Authenticity in Writing
00:04:19
Speaker
And yeah, so that was kind of the part of the inspiration.
00:04:22
Speaker
And then this whole new story around Ugandan Asians just always fascinated me and horrified me, I suppose.
00:04:29
Speaker
And I thought it'd be interesting to look at that in more detail.
00:04:32
Speaker
And yeah, definitely.
00:04:34
Speaker
Like your book really obviously heavily relies on research.
00:04:39
Speaker
And we were wondering what is, what's your approach to research or what was your approach to it during this process?
00:04:45
Speaker
And
00:04:45
Speaker
like how was that process for you?
00:04:47
Speaker
Was it something that you found quite easy?
00:04:49
Speaker
Yes, I mean, I love research and I am essentially a historical fiction writer and my next book will be historical fiction.
00:04:57
Speaker
So I love research.
00:04:58
Speaker
I don't think you should set yourself up to be a historical fiction writer unless you really love it.
00:05:03
Speaker
The problem obviously is knowing when to stop researching and get on with writing.
00:05:09
Speaker
But for me, because this is the first book I wrote and I obviously...
00:05:12
Speaker
I didn't have an agent.
00:05:13
Speaker
I wasn't sure if it was ever going to get published.
00:05:16
Speaker
To start with, my research was a little bit more tentative.
00:05:19
Speaker
So I read books, obviously, tried to find documentaries online or YouTube on BBC and so on.
00:05:25
Speaker
I also managed to find quite a few first-hand interviews that had been recorded as part of a research project, you know, first-hand interviews with Ugandan Asians who'd come to Britain.
00:05:38
Speaker
So that was really helpful because it was quite a lot of different interviews and it gave me more of a multifaceted experience.
00:05:44
Speaker
view of that experience so I watched a lot of that there's hours and hours and hours of footage so I looked at that but there came a point where I think I could have I could have written this book without having visited Uganda but I didn't feel that it was quite right to do that and you know I was fortunate enough to be able to go and spend a week in Uganda but that was not till I'd written a second draft and so by that point it was almost like
00:06:09
Speaker
the book was coming to life around me, you know, everything I've researched was coming to life around me.
Writing Process and Drafting Techniques
00:06:16
Speaker
You know, whereas I suppose a lot of writers might try and research early on before they even write to words.
00:06:21
Speaker
So, you know, there are definitely ways to do it without having to visit a country or a place.
00:06:27
Speaker
And especially nowadays with Google Earth and
00:06:29
Speaker
all the YouTube content that you can get and blogs and things like that, that you can bring places to life without necessarily having visited.
00:06:38
Speaker
But I think it always adds an extra dimension.
00:06:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's never going to be the same.
00:06:42
Speaker
No.
00:06:42
Speaker
It's like being there and kind of breathing it all in.
00:06:45
Speaker
Presumably you went to Kalolo Hill.
00:06:47
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:06:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:49
Speaker
And I spent most of my time in Kampala, which is, and Kalolo Hill is one of the hills of Kampala, seven main hills.
00:06:57
Speaker
So I went there and I spent time in the city centre, which is also referenced in the book, and also Lake Victoria, which is where the book starts.
00:07:06
Speaker
And, you know, it's quite different there.
00:07:09
Speaker
Lake Victoria is actually a massive lake.
00:07:11
Speaker
And if you're actually standing on the banks, it feels more like the sea.
00:07:15
Speaker
So you can't see across to the other side or anything.
00:07:19
Speaker
So...
Mentorship and Early Feedback in Writing
00:07:21
Speaker
it was really interesting to go and explore that and there are certain lines and details um in the book which i wouldn't obviously have been able to write and sensory details in particular without having gone yeah yeah i was gonna say like doing the research element
00:07:37
Speaker
of a novel like this I guess it it makes you so that you're able to really immerse yourself into the experience and you'll feel like you're you're really in the writing would you say rather than it just being sort of a um another world you know yeah um that you're creating it really makes it real for you which is great yeah I think so I think what also I'd I'd suggest to writers is to realize that
00:08:04
Speaker
Sometimes, certainly in my early drafts, I didn't quite feel the story completely.
00:08:09
Speaker
And it took a couple of drafts of getting to know the characters, writing a bit more before I felt I was, as you say, immersed in that world.
00:08:17
Speaker
And I don't think people should worry too much if they don't fully feel it straight away, because you're trying to build up that world for yourself and then for the reader itself.
Navigating the Publishing World
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
00:08:29
Speaker
And you do a lot of, you write a mentoring blog or like a blog that mentors and helps people.
00:08:37
Speaker
Did you pull on, you know, any sort of mentoring in your book writing or throughout your process getting into writing your novel?
00:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, I've had quite a lot of support.
00:08:50
Speaker
I'll definitely say that.
00:08:51
Speaker
I didn't have a mentor as such, but I...
00:08:56
Speaker
you know, I took advantage of what I could.
00:08:57
Speaker
So there was, for example, Spread the Word, which is a London-based organisation, but I believe there are similar ones across the UK, actually.
00:09:07
Speaker
And they were doing a thing where they matched agents, an agent in particular, with underrepresented writers.
00:09:14
Speaker
So I applied for that, and they were able to then look at my three chapters and my synopsis and so on.
00:09:21
Speaker
So
00:09:22
Speaker
So definitely look out for things like that, even if you can't find longer term mentoring.
00:09:28
Speaker
I was able to get a bit of feedback through competition listings, actually.
00:09:33
Speaker
So when I.
00:09:34
Speaker
when I got shortlisted onto the Barst Novel Award, for example, they give you feedback as part of being on the shortlist.
00:09:41
Speaker
So obviously I can't, not everyone's guaranteed that, but that was really helpful before I submitted to agents.
00:09:48
Speaker
And I am now just running a mentoring scheme, actually, yes, for other writers.
00:09:54
Speaker
So underrepresented writers can...
00:09:56
Speaker
can write they can find out more about it through my website so neemishal.com um because i wanted to give something back especially to underrepresented writers who um who might not have access to some of the tools that that um some authors do so i just wanted to think i was giving back on that side
Balancing Writing with Other Commitments
00:10:14
Speaker
yeah that's brilliant thank you and um speaking of uh the
00:10:20
Speaker
the awards that you were shortlisted for the bath award, but you've also been, I was looking on your website.
00:10:25
Speaker
This book has been shortlisted for shortlisted, longlisted one or runners up for a handful of different awards, which is amazing.
00:10:34
Speaker
Uh, very well done.
00:10:36
Speaker
I was wondering those competitions you, did you enter all of them before you got an agent and did, did getting an agent have anything to do with, um, your success in those competitions?
00:10:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's still a bit surreal when I think about that.
00:10:51
Speaker
It was a bit of a strange year because I obviously applied to all those competitions in the one year.
00:10:56
Speaker
And I can't deny there is obviously an element of luck in any competition and even having the means to be able to enter these competitions.
00:11:05
Speaker
And that's another thing actually I'd say is that there are a lot of bursaries and free entries that have been sponsored by other people.
00:11:13
Speaker
So if
00:11:14
Speaker
for example if there's people listening who might want to take part in competitions but feel that you know it's outside of their sort of ability to spend a certain amount of money then often certainly bath novel award often has those sorts of things so yeah it's definitely worth looking at those but in terms of my listings um yes i did get some interest because a lot of the judges are often agents or editors um
00:11:37
Speaker
I did get some interest and requests for full as a result of that.
00:11:41
Speaker
As it happened, I got my agent through the slush pile.
00:11:45
Speaker
It wasn't one of those agents.
00:11:47
Speaker
I did write to a fair few agents during my process.
00:11:52
Speaker
And most of the entries were before I had an agent.
00:11:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:11:56
Speaker
I have, I do know people that have ended up getting agents through competition prizes.
00:12:02
Speaker
It really just depends, you know, and ultimately it depends what, what agents are judging and
00:12:07
Speaker
what they were looking for and so on.
00:12:10
Speaker
And what the industry is looking for at that specific time.
00:12:12
Speaker
Exactly.
00:12:12
Speaker
But it definitely helps in terms of the cover letter.
00:12:15
Speaker
So being able to write, you know, it shows that you take your craft seriously to be listed.
00:12:20
Speaker
So that definitely helped me, I think, with getting an agent.
00:12:27
Speaker
And do you think you wrote, did you write a lot of stories before this?
00:12:30
Speaker
Or was this like something that you'd always wanted to write and then you spent a, like, it was like a labour of love?
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, well, I only started writing again in my late 30s.
00:12:41
Speaker
So I wrote, I started writing about five years ago.
00:12:44
Speaker
So I hadn't written since school and I didn't think I was particularly good at writing.
00:12:52
Speaker
It's really strange.
00:12:53
Speaker
And the only reason I got back into writing was because, um,
00:12:57
Speaker
At work, they give us £100 and they call it me money and you can do it in any sort of extracurricular activity you want.
00:13:03
Speaker
And I decided to do crazy writing mainly to help with my day job, which is in marketing.
00:13:09
Speaker
And I've forgotten that.
00:13:11
Speaker
And as soon as I wrote, I had to write a piece obviously for that.
00:13:13
Speaker
And I've forgotten how much I loved writing and what a buzz you get.
00:13:19
Speaker
And from that, you know, at the back of my mind, I'd always thought there's no, there's no books.
00:13:23
Speaker
about the gandanasian expulsion there's very few books about
Publishing Surprises and Collaborations
00:13:26
Speaker
the east african asians and i found that a bit strange as well because they you know there are many people that have come over from east africa to the way with british passports like my parents and so i started thinking i might be able to write that story and over time yeah i guess i started to take it more seriously and
00:13:46
Speaker
And this is the first set of stories that became a novel, really, for me.
00:13:52
Speaker
So, yeah, I hadn't anticipated becoming an author until very recently.
00:13:57
Speaker
That's great.
00:13:57
Speaker
You sort of embarked on that and now you are where you are.
00:14:01
Speaker
I mean, that's the dream, right?
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's true.
00:14:04
Speaker
What do you think were your main challenges getting into the industry, if there were any?
00:14:09
Speaker
So when you obviously decided that you wanted to write this and research, did you come over any main challenges in terms of getting an agent or publishing or anything like that?
00:14:19
Speaker
Yes, I think any writing process is going to come with its challenges.
00:14:23
Speaker
And I suppose what we've talked about so far maybe makes it sound a bit like a...
00:14:28
Speaker
you know, a film type situation where I've got an agent and now I've published and like any writer, there's ups and downs.
00:14:37
Speaker
So firstly, obviously writing whilst holding down a day job, but that's actually the reality for particularly debut authors.
00:14:45
Speaker
And so, you know, I work full time in marketing, so I used to write on my commute.
00:14:51
Speaker
That in itself, you know, you need to find the energy to do that and
00:14:55
Speaker
and just keep going.
00:14:56
Speaker
And that was a challenge sometimes, you know, it's the last thing you want to do really is sometimes at weekends is to be sitting at a computer and writing, but I suppose if you love writing, you're more likely to do it.
00:15:06
Speaker
And that was the case for me.
00:15:08
Speaker
I think that love comes through a lot of the time on the page as well.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, I hope so.
00:15:12
Speaker
I think so.
00:15:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:14
Speaker
Or you, or you polish it and edit it out, I guess.
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker
But yeah, that was challenging.
00:15:21
Speaker
And the research for Colola Hill was a challenge as well, because it's not like writing about, you know, a story set in World War II where there's just reams and reams of history.
00:15:30
Speaker
There's actually very little written down.
00:15:33
Speaker
And I talk a bit about that in the book about how, you know, people were too busy surviving to write down stories, you know, and there's a big tradition of oral history in Indian culture and in African culture, actually, more so than writing necessarily.
00:15:48
Speaker
So,
00:15:49
Speaker
So, you know, finding more stories and especially because they're quite harrowing circumstances, not everyone wants, wanted to talk about those things.
00:15:57
Speaker
So that was a challenge.
00:15:59
Speaker
And then obviously getting an agent, you know, I've got quite a few rejections, dozens of rejections.
00:16:04
Speaker
I did get a few full requests as well for manuscripts from, from the agents, but you know,
00:16:12
Speaker
It's so easy for everyone to hear all the good stories.
00:16:15
Speaker
It, you know, I don't think there's an author out there that hasn't got a rejection before they've managed to get an agent and then an editor and then a publisher.
00:16:22
Speaker
So I,
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's a hard slog.
00:16:26
Speaker
And it's also very boring by the late stages of editing a book.
00:16:30
Speaker
You know, I've looked at my book about 20 times now, and that's probably on the lower side for some people.
00:16:37
Speaker
And I have to say, I was just so glad not to have to read it again.
00:16:41
Speaker
You know, as much as you might love any book that you write, there are boring bits to being published.
00:16:47
Speaker
But, you know, the other elements make up for that.
00:16:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:51
Speaker
In terms of, so, um, first time going through the publishing process, going through traditional publishing, was there anything once it, once the editors had accepted it and signed on and you, and you knew the deal was happening, was there anything in that process that kind of surprised you that you weren't expecting?
00:17:09
Speaker
um well I suppose well even before then the one surprise was that the book went to auction and that was a very bewildering experience um because you always hear about other people's books going to yeah it's going to happen to you exactly that and and also I didn't really know what that I mean I know what an auction is but I didn't know what that actually meant in publishing terms yeah um so it was really you know you get to go and meet each editor and and
00:17:38
Speaker
talk to them about your book.
00:17:39
Speaker
And it's very strange as well, because it's one of the first times that
00:17:42
Speaker
other people will be talking about your characters as if they're real.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I can't tell you how surreal it is to meet any, any, any editor and have them talk about your book like that.
00:17:53
Speaker
And so that, that's strange as well, because that's the, that's suddenly a point where the power dynamics completely flipped and you're no longer in the position where you're sending your stuff off, trying to get approval from other people.
00:18:06
Speaker
And suddenly they're all kind of prying at you to pick that up.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:18:11
Speaker
It's very, it's very strange.
00:18:12
Speaker
I have to say it's very surreal.
00:18:14
Speaker
And that, that definitely did surprise me even before, you know, I really feel that I felt, I found my home with Picador who are publishing me and I just felt it was, it was right.
00:18:25
Speaker
It was a very strong sort of gut instinct with that.
00:18:29
Speaker
And so I was really glad that I picked them and my editor has been amazing.
00:18:33
Speaker
I'm sure everyone says that, but I genuinely, she made this book better and
00:18:38
Speaker
I think it's reflected in the reviews I've had so far.
00:18:40
Speaker
But in terms of other surprises, I mean, it is, it doesn't surprise me that it's a slow process.
00:18:46
Speaker
I knew it was going to be slow, but I think everyone should be prepared for that.
00:18:50
Speaker
I signed two years ago.
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:52
Speaker
I signed two years ago to Picador, exactly two years ago.
00:18:55
Speaker
And that is longer than some books for sure.
00:18:58
Speaker
And it felt like a long time away, but I'm so glad I had that time because in that time I've been able to
Leveraging Social Media and Cultural Representation
00:19:03
Speaker
start a second book and some people won't necessarily have that luxury of being able to start a second book before the first book comes out.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:12
Speaker
And so actually I'm really grateful.
00:19:13
Speaker
I mean, you know, I'm being published during a pandemic and that brings a whole load of other surprises, but, but in terms of publishing process itself, I think it's just being prepared that it's a slow process.
00:19:23
Speaker
You will go back and forth quite a lot.
00:19:27
Speaker
And, and yeah, just being prepared for that really.
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:31
Speaker
We've spoken to a couple of other authors who have recently gone through the publishing for the first time.
00:19:38
Speaker
And just quickly before we move on, how did you find copy editing for the first time?
00:19:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:46
Speaker
I have to say, I don't know.
00:19:49
Speaker
I don't know if it's because I'm writing later in life or...
00:19:52
Speaker
I don't know what it is, but I seem to have a thick skin when it comes to these things.
00:19:57
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:58
Speaker
I seem to have a bit – I guess I can put some distance across it.
00:20:01
Speaker
And the other thing that I said to not just my editor, but certainly beta readers, early readers of my book before I'd even got an agent –
00:20:11
Speaker
is I'd rather know now than when it's published.
00:20:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:15
Speaker
You know, that's, that would be the worst thing.
00:20:17
Speaker
And that, that's maybe helped me because, you know, I haven't, I've had some bad feedback and I've had to sort of deal with that and get over it.
00:20:24
Speaker
Um, yeah,
00:20:26
Speaker
But in many ways, that's the most helpful feedback, though.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:20:30
Speaker
Giving you compliments is nice, but it's not helpful for the book.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah, you need to know the bits that need strengthening, especially as a debut author, you know, an early writer.
00:20:42
Speaker
I mean, any time in your career anyway, but especially before you've even, before you're tried and tested, I suppose, before it's been, before you get any reviews from readers, you need to have an understanding of what's working and what isn't.
00:20:54
Speaker
And so...
00:20:56
Speaker
And perhaps it's also helped that the people that have given me feedback so far have all been quite diplomatic.
00:21:02
Speaker
I mean, I did say it doesn't matter how brutal it is, just give me the feedback.
00:21:06
Speaker
And I know that that's not the case.
00:21:08
Speaker
It's hard to hear it sometimes, but I'd rather hear it.
00:21:12
Speaker
I'm interested to know about like the the um the editing process considering you went out and did most of the research how much can another person really edit what your what your story is like obviously there's some bits that must be really factual and and you've went out and did that research and how can they sort of is it a lot of backwards and forwards between like how
00:21:37
Speaker
Yeah, how is that?
00:21:38
Speaker
That's really interesting, actually.
00:21:42
Speaker
I found, I think, yeah, my editor, my copywriter, everyone has been really great.
00:21:46
Speaker
And actually...
00:21:47
Speaker
Although you're right, yes, in that sense that a lot of the research is so specific, particularly with East African Asians.
00:21:54
Speaker
It's not like the Indian subcontinent where, you know, it's a bit more familiar to British readers, I guess.
00:22:01
Speaker
But that said, you know, a good copy editor and my copy editor certainly did this and my proof editor.
00:22:08
Speaker
read also I think did this you know if they weren't sure of certain certainly I had some Swahili words and Vajrati words or I had some references to things that are maybe a bit more unusual they googled it and they checked it and actually they did catch a couple of things that I had missed and that's that happens with any book you know no matter how much you look at it and I've had my parents read my book to make sure that the East African elements were right but even then you know
00:22:32
Speaker
There's so much, you know, you're talking about 100,000 words.
00:22:35
Speaker
There's so much to keep track of that a good editor and proofreader will catch those things anyway.
00:22:44
Speaker
That's great.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:22:46
Speaker
So I was just wondering, how does that work out when you're the person that knows the information on the main information?
00:22:52
Speaker
I'm just like, it's interesting.
00:22:54
Speaker
And also in regards to social media, obviously we know that you're on it, you've got your own website and stuff as well, and you do actively share.
00:23:00
Speaker
But how do you find...
00:23:03
Speaker
it's very controversial social media so you know some people authors love it and some hate it and don't want to share do you think the like something that's helped you through this process and during this time especially when you can't meet people face to face yeah to be honest not just during this time but even before that um despite how it might seem I'm
00:23:24
Speaker
actually an introvert, I find sort of, you know, large gatherings quite stressful and tiring as well, you know.
00:23:32
Speaker
And so social media enables me to A, write things as opposed to obviously always saying them.
00:23:38
Speaker
And that in itself as a writer is really handy because you can think about what you want to say and get it out there and do that.
00:23:46
Speaker
It's also obviously social media is on all the time.
00:23:48
Speaker
So you can decide when you want to engage and when you don't.
00:23:51
Speaker
And I realised that some people...
00:23:54
Speaker
see it as a bit of a negative thing and it definitely can be particularly for authors who are sometimes getting tagged into bad reviews and things like that I think and I'm not really experienced that yet but I actually have found social media so helpful I've met so many writers and have made
00:24:10
Speaker
you know proper good friends through it I've met them I've been on writing retreats with them and things like that and my writing wouldn't be as good as it is without all of their help and support and all the advice you get particularly on Twitter I think there's a very big author community and writer community on Twitter and I know people can be a bit frightened of it because sometimes it does get negative and again you know it's just finding the right sorts of people and only engaging with the
00:24:38
Speaker
positive people and not the ones that will try and drag you down.
00:24:42
Speaker
And I'm more recently trying to get to grips with Instagram, which is a lovely book community.
00:24:47
Speaker
It's less so writers and more book readers, which is great.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I was a bit apprehensive about Instagram because, you know, you have to take nice pictures and I'm not good at taking pictures at all.
00:24:58
Speaker
But actually it's not really about that.
00:25:00
Speaker
You know, it's now short form sort of micro blogging and you can write and expand on things that you wouldn't be able to on Twitter.
00:25:08
Speaker
So I personally think it's beneficial.
00:25:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:12
Speaker
And I actually found a lot of friends through something called CBC Write.
00:25:18
Speaker
So Curtis Brown Creative, they do monthly Twitter writing competitions.
00:25:24
Speaker
So they're micro-fiction competitions.
00:25:27
Speaker
So definitely worth having a look at that.
00:25:29
Speaker
And there's others on Twitter as well.
00:25:32
Speaker
Okay.
00:25:32
Speaker
Speaking of nice pictures, I...
00:25:36
Speaker
absolutely love the artwork for your book i think it's so i love that yellow and and the kind of little details on it yeah that's great this is something we like to ask uh people going through the process now is how much say did you get in that artwork itself yeah i i know it's my book and i'm probably not supposed to say things like but i really love it and even if
00:26:01
Speaker
I think it's great.
00:26:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's, I mean, you know, I can say that, I guess, because it's not, I don't take any credit for the design, obviously.
00:26:09
Speaker
It was Lucy Scholes, actually, who designed it, I should say that.
Writing Resources and Goal Setting
00:26:13
Speaker
Well done, Lucy.
00:26:14
Speaker
Yeah, an amazing job.
00:26:15
Speaker
And she does a lot of other Picador artwork.
00:26:19
Speaker
So this wasn't the first iteration.
00:26:22
Speaker
I'm sure I'm allowed to say that.
00:26:23
Speaker
There were a few iterations that it went through.
00:26:26
Speaker
Picador have been amazing.
00:26:28
Speaker
And again, I'm probably just sound like I'm saying this, but they have been amazing in terms of feedback.
00:26:33
Speaker
And I know that that's not always the case with with publishers.
00:26:37
Speaker
And I was allowed to input into it.
00:26:39
Speaker
To be honest, you know, it did go through a couple of iterations, but I really liked the concept.
00:26:44
Speaker
So this idea of people who haven't necessarily seen the artwork or don't know the background to it.
00:26:50
Speaker
It's got batik artwork, which is very well known both in Asia and in Africa.
00:26:55
Speaker
So it sort of brings those elements together.
00:26:57
Speaker
But the batik artwork is actually from a British artist.
00:27:01
Speaker
So it brings those three cultures together.
00:27:03
Speaker
Oh, that's lovely.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:06
Speaker
And then it's got little sort of motifs of the British passport and an Indian passport.
00:27:11
Speaker
So she's done really well to weave it all together and obviously using yellow,
00:27:15
Speaker
seems to be a bit of a 2021 color actually for book covers I don't know if you've noticed um yeah yellow is a great color at the moment I think it's because it's happy isn't it it's just such a happy color yeah um yeah no it's lovely I love the dot work on the um the the roses or the flowers that are there as well and it's really beautiful and in regards to your front cover you have like a great tagline that me and Jamie were talking about before you came on the podcast and
00:27:40
Speaker
And like when you're left with nothing but your secrets, how do you start again?
00:27:45
Speaker
I think that's absolutely great.
00:27:47
Speaker
Was that something that you worked with your editor for the front cover or was that something that was brought to you?
00:27:53
Speaker
That was interesting.
00:27:54
Speaker
So that's an adaptation of a line that I used in my pitch.
00:27:58
Speaker
So, you know, the devastating scene.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
So I use that in my pitch in my cover letter to my agent.
00:28:03
Speaker
And then I obviously must have referenced that to Picador as well later on.
00:28:09
Speaker
But then I think they rewrote it.
00:28:10
Speaker
I really like it, actually.
00:28:12
Speaker
Pictures and those sorts of taglines are really hard to do.
00:28:16
Speaker
And I probably shouldn't say that as a writer, but I find them so difficult.
The Role of Writing Groups
00:28:21
Speaker
there's a real skill to how do you choose that's why it's just out of everything how do you choose something that really stands out but I do think that really does I think it's it's brilliant um yeah and I I guess I'm not finally but um I feel like what pieces of advice or three strongest bits of advice would you give to people wanting to embark on um doing a book like yours
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think as far as research goes, obviously take advantage of anything that you can find and think outside the box a little bit.
00:28:55
Speaker
So it doesn't just have to be reading blogs and watching videos.
00:28:59
Speaker
It can be also obviously visiting places, obviously that's harder at the moment, but it can also be things like finding recipe books based on the place that you're writing about.
00:29:10
Speaker
Oh, that's a good tip, I like that.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:12
Speaker
That's good, yeah.
00:29:14
Speaker
And even looking at artwork, especially at the moment, a lot of the art galleries, you can look at their artwork online.
00:29:20
Speaker
So if there's pieces of art which are about the type of character you're writing about, you'll be able to see the clothing that they wear, or you'll be able to see the setting that they're within.
00:29:32
Speaker
There's other...
00:29:33
Speaker
ways that can not only give you an insight into a period of history but also probably inspire you in a way that perhaps reading a piece of text might not do um so that's a brilliant piece of advice yeah and then the other thing i know it's a bit boring but goal setting i didn't um i know that i have friends who write a whole set of goals into excel spreadsheets and i don't do that i don't have word count goals for the week um
00:29:59
Speaker
and the month and the year or whatever.
00:30:01
Speaker
But some people find that really helpful.
00:30:03
Speaker
But I did break down my total word count in my head.
00:30:07
Speaker
So I said to myself that I was going to try and do, you know, X number of words per day and X number of words per week, because that way you have a sense of whether you're actually making progress.
00:30:18
Speaker
That said, I wouldn't focus solely on word count because you could write 100,000 words, but if they're not very strong words, it doesn't really make a difference.
00:30:29
Speaker
So don't be too hung up on it, but do try to use it at least as a guide.
00:30:35
Speaker
And then my last bit, my last tip would be free writing.
00:30:40
Speaker
So the first thing I learned in creative writing course, in my creative writing course, and
00:30:46
Speaker
That basically means not looking back over what you've written.
00:30:49
Speaker
Like if you make a typo or a spelling mistake, you don't go back over and you don't look at it again until you've got a full draft, which sounds horrific to a lot of people.
00:31:00
Speaker
But I'd never, if I started to edit everything I'd written every day,
00:31:04
Speaker
I would probably still be here trying to write a first draft because it would take so long.
00:31:08
Speaker
At least when you have a chunk of a first draft, you feel like you've made some headway and you know then how to take that forward.
00:31:16
Speaker
That works for me.
00:31:17
Speaker
It might not work for everyone, of course.
00:31:19
Speaker
So you like to get a flow going and just stay in that flow.
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:23
Speaker
I think it's really good that, because I did a little writing course and I made some good friends from it, like a little writing group.
00:31:29
Speaker
And we do some like free, like just a WhatsApp group.
00:31:32
Speaker
And we actually live all over like America and the UK as well.
00:31:36
Speaker
And we do like little free flow sessions.
00:31:39
Speaker
So where you have like, you know, a word or a sentence and then we have to do...
00:31:43
Speaker
like 500 words from that or something like that.
00:31:46
Speaker
We try and do it, but obviously not every week.
00:31:48
Speaker
But it is actually a really good thing to do.
00:31:51
Speaker
Like what you said, I think it enables you.
00:31:53
Speaker
At first you think, oh, no, like I've made, no, this doesn't sound right.
00:31:57
Speaker
And it's just good to just free flow and then maybe read it back later on.
00:32:01
Speaker
And I think a lot of good ideas came from it, from a lot of our group anyway, which is really good.
00:32:07
Speaker
I like that idea, yeah.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yeah, and motivating each other as well.
00:32:10
Speaker
That helps, I think.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, definitely find your, find your, your gang, like find people to, to go on the journey with you and you can support each other and help each other out.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
Nima's Book Recommendation
00:32:22
Speaker
Well, I think that concludes the bulk of the interview.
00:32:25
Speaker
And that means we have just one more question for you.
00:32:28
Speaker
And the question is, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book would you choose to take?
00:32:39
Speaker
Well, first of all, this is such a cruel question.
00:32:42
Speaker
I know.
00:32:46
Speaker
I'm going to try really hard with this one, but I, I struggled.
00:32:51
Speaker
I really struggled, but I will go with, um, Fingersmith by Sarah Waters.
00:32:57
Speaker
Um, it's such a good book.
00:33:00
Speaker
It's, um, set in Victorian London and, um,
00:33:05
Speaker
I know that lots of people say there's lots of great twists in this book or that book, but honestly, the twists in this book, it's amazing historical fiction, but it's such a page turner.
00:33:16
Speaker
And I think I could read, even if I knew the twists, I would probably read it over and over again just to marvel at how well it's done.
00:33:23
Speaker
I love the twist.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:33:26
Speaker
And I feel that there'll be enough to keep my interest, but let's face it, one book...
00:33:32
Speaker
I can start writing my own book.
00:33:34
Speaker
What else would I do with the time?
Conclusion and Social Media Connections
00:33:36
Speaker
I know people keep on trying to kind of get out of the question by saying, oh, well, can I pick one series?
00:33:43
Speaker
Then that's, that's, and I'm like, no, no, that's not how it works.
00:33:48
Speaker
You can only pick one book.
00:33:50
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much, Nima, for your time.
00:33:52
Speaker
Thank you.
00:33:52
Speaker
It's been great.
00:33:53
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:33:54
Speaker
Fun chatting.
00:33:57
Speaker
To keep up with everything that Nima is doing, you can follow her on Instagram at Nima Shah author or on Twitter at Nima M Shah.
00:34:05
Speaker
And to make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow us on Twitter at Right and Wrong UK and on Instagram at Right and Wrong Podcast.
00:34:11
Speaker
Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the next one.