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20. Working Through Depression with Tori Pintar
19 Plays1 year ago
She found freedom when she stopped trying to "fix" depression.
Tori Pintar knows a thing or two about viewing life through different lenses. A photographer by trade, and a marketer by choice, she's come a long way from her point-and-shoot days. Her business is all about capturing everyday people in raw moments.
Luckily for us, she shares some of her rawest moments in return.
Depression has ebbed and flowed through Tori's life for twenty years. Whenever it reappears, it's met by a version of her who is wiser, more compassionate, and better equipped to move through it. Even when the will to participate in life wanes, she knows joy will return—and she has her toolkit at the ready.
"I want to get 'Go Outside' tattooed on my arm." It helps, as does reawakening her senses through cooking. Depression has boosted her endurance in many ways, even more so than the marathon training that helps her reach the other side.
In this episode, Tori shares how she learned (and keeps learning) to show herself grace. She also speaks openly about her past struggles with orthorexia and the intuitive eating practices that helped her reharvest time and energy for things that truly bring her joy.
Like bringing her neighbors homemade sourdough baguettes in her pjs on a snowy Christmas morning.
For more inspiration, subscribe to Unbound Turnarounds on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts!
LINKS:
- Connect with Nicole
- Connect with Mallory
- Connect with Tori: www.toripintar.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Women Entrepreneurs
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Unbound Turnarounds, a podcast all about the challenges women business owners think about constantly, but rarely voice. We're Nicole and Mallory, entrepreneurs, friends, and co-founders of Business Unbound, a community helping women alleviate the headaches, heartaches, and backaches so work actually works for life. This is your safe space for the ups, downs, and the turnarounds.
Wellbeing and Trigger Warnings
00:00:31
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to season two of Unbound Turnarounds. Nicole, how are you faring today? I'm doing all right. I've gotten to exchange a couple messages with you this morning about all things business and life, and that's always a great way for me to start my day.
00:00:48
Speaker
Yeah, me too. I do enjoy our little check-ins, whether it's video, audio, or texting. Yes, we do it all. We do it all the way. As a reminder, so we are in season two. We've already said how many times we love this season, but just a reminder for anybody, if this is your first one of season two, season two is about different aspects of our wellbeing because it's critical to our success as well.
00:01:12
Speaker
entrepreneurs and frankly to our happiness and fulfillment in life. So before we get started, I do want to put out a trigger warning. If depression is a triggering topic for you, go ahead and skip this episode, scan through some of our other season two episodes for other ones that may be something else you'd like to listen to today instead.
00:01:31
Speaker
Today our guest will be sharing her personal journey with depression as a solopreneur. So that is a way for us to kind of help others feel seen and connected. And we think that's really important. So we're really super grateful for her being vulnerable and sharing that with us.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yes, so thank you.
Tori Pintar's Career Journey
00:01:48
Speaker
Today we are chatting with Tori Pintar and she is a photographer working with families, couples, and brands and she's been doing it since 2008. So late in 2019, she was actually ready for a new challenge and so she began a second endeavor, a marketing and web design agency.
00:02:09
Speaker
And through that, she supports small businesses on the road to meaningful success without sacrificing their heart and humanity with one size fits all marketing. And I love that so much. She is an avid runner, usually on the trails with her partner and Border Collie. She's also a recent convert to backcountry skiing from inbound snowboarding. And she always has her head in at least one book, usually cookbooks.
00:02:36
Speaker
So we are really just honored to have you here and to have you be open about some of the hard things that we know a lot of women in general, but also women entrepreneurs face. And it usually doesn't get talked about. And we want to change that. So we thank you very much for being on the show.
00:02:56
Speaker
Thanks, I'm happy to be here. Okay, Tori, so get us started by talking about how you got into photography, actually, because we are an entrepreneur podcast first. So let's talk about how you got into this space, because it's been a huge part of your professional life, I think, mostly from the start. Is that right?
00:03:15
Speaker
Yeah, as far as owning his business and having like an actual career. It's the only career was my first career really. So, okay. So how did you know that you wanted to do that? I didn't really set out to start a business. I struggled in college to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. And then I took a gap year after college because it was the only thing I knew that I wanted to do next.
00:03:41
Speaker
Really? And so I moved to England and got a special visa that was available at the time so I could work there and plan to do like a round the world trip working and traveling. And as many of us know, when you travel, you take a lot of photos. But bear in mind, this is before I felt that I'm older.
00:04:05
Speaker
And I had a point and shoot camera and I spent a lot of time, A, because I didn't have any money with my point and shoot camera walking around and taking photos. And I found that I really enjoyed that because I just, I'm not the photographer who's like, oh, I've had a camera in my hand since I was three. That is not me at all. This is definitely a later in life, but it was something I fell in love with. And then after living abroad and I returned home,
00:04:31
Speaker
is when I sell into wedding photography initially. Because of digital, it had changed so much. And there was so much more photojournalism. And it was more accessible because film is and was still very expensive. And so it was easier to develop those skills with
Significance of Photography
00:04:50
Speaker
digital. And the photojournalism, the emotion of it and capturing people and everyday people in raw and real ways really, really
00:04:58
Speaker
really appealed to me. So I started with travel, but I didn't really want to be a travel photographer. I wanted to be a wedding photographer.
00:05:06
Speaker
So this actually brings me to a question I had about how photography makes you feel, because I think when you don't set out to do a particular career, if you're not like, I've always wanted to be a doctor, or I've always had a camera in my hand, there's something about discovering that thing kind of in the beginning that makes you feel a certain way. And it tells your body and your brain, this is maybe something that's good for you.
00:05:30
Speaker
So I'm curious how, if you remember kind of back in the beginning, how did photography make you feel either while you were overseas or when you were doing it back home in wedding situations? What did that feel like? It's funny that you asked that question because
00:05:47
Speaker
I have some vivid memories. The way I worked around the world and what I did to make money until I ended up starting a business was through waitressing. But then I came to Montana after living abroad, sort of continuing the theme of I'll just move to cool places. And the restaurant I worked at hadn't embraced Facebook yet and wasn't using it in their marketing. And I started taking some photos for them. And so they were like, oh, free labor. Of course you can do this for us.
00:06:17
Speaker
I'm not free. I was being paid. So they're like, well, we have this thing going on tonight. Will you take some photos? And I have vivid memories of when I would pick the camera up and do that feeling like this is what I was meant to do. And it was like a full body kind of thing. And I haven't had that with, I mean, I like so many things so, so, so much, but that was the first time I'd ever felt like, you know,
00:06:43
Speaker
what I want to do with a clear feeling, whereas I just liked a lot of other things. And I was like, this is what I should be doing. Yes. Wow. What a good, sacral knowing right there that I love that you had that experience.
00:06:58
Speaker
But you could have taken it, you know, photography and ran a different way with it. You could have joined an existing studio or worked as an in-house brand photographer, you know, back in the day. So how did you weigh the pros and cons of starting your own business?
Transition to Entrepreneurship
00:07:14
Speaker
Did you know that's what you wanted to do right from the beginning when you started photography?
00:07:18
Speaker
No, I didn't know I was starting a business. Actually, I don't know how this happened. I actually went to work. I did work with another photographer, but I was a contractor. So I ran everything through my own business and contracts and whatnot. And that was to protect their brand. And it was really good experience, but it did get me a lot of work.
00:07:42
Speaker
And I did support them with some office management and whatnot. That was how, it wasn't even like I was really making a choice. I guess I was making a choice, but I didn't know. I met him and I knew he was like the photographer in Montana. And I also loved his style and his were the images that I would look at at night. Like, oh, I want to be like this person when I grow up.
00:08:04
Speaker
And so, but I didn't even like think about what it meant that I was going to, I didn't even know what a contractor was. I didn't understand these things at all. I had no idea that I was starting a business. I didn't even know like, oh, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. Nope. Had no idea. It was just, I wanted so badly to take wedding photos and be invited to people's weddings that I was like, whatever. I just focused on what I knew would get me there. And because I liked his work and wanted to
00:08:32
Speaker
I learned to reduce more and more like that myself and find my own style. When I met him and I learned he was going to open a little like she was looking for someone to help him, I was like, you're going to hire me. So it's me. I'll work for free. That's a hard offer to turn down. You have to do that in the beginning sometimes. I mean, I'm not I'm not an advocate for working for free, but I know in the very beginning. So what was the leap then to going out on your own and having your own company?
00:09:01
Speaker
Well, it was always sort of built in. I did everything under my name, so technically it already existed. That's true. I think it was just a natural progression of growing and evolving. Both of us reached a point where we were changing our businesses some, and he was even actually at one point going to move away from photography.
00:09:20
Speaker
his life, personal life was changing and at the time I had already hired a business coach separately so it kind of happened luckily in a way sort of naturally. It was still somewhat of a hard transition because more so just like personally because we're such good friends too and like just embracing change and the unknown a little bit but it really and truly wasn't
00:09:41
Speaker
In my mind, it was more of a transition than it actually was because of the way things had already been run, and I was so autonomous. Like, he never reviewed anything. Like, so it was just different in that we were no longer in a sort of partnership, I guess.
00:09:56
Speaker
I think that's also, you know, some people think, well, I have to go out into business and I have to do it all at once and make it this big leap. And what we've heard several times over the seasons is that you can baby step it, right? You don't even have to notice that you're starting it, right? You kept that really good secret from yourself.
00:10:18
Speaker
But, you know, you don't have to make this giant leap all at once. And especially depending on how we're wired, that may not be the best way to do it for us.
Impact of Depression on Work
00:10:29
Speaker
Right. I mean, I did the same thing. It took me about a year to kind of make that transition. And because that was better for me and kind of the way my little anxious brain works.
00:10:39
Speaker
Which does bring me to, I've talked a lot about in my episodes of Wellness and the very first episode of the pod, how my life with anxiety is a really big reason that I ended up leaving corporate and going out on my own. So that was a big decision point for me. And so for you, I'm really curious when you found depression kind of showed up in your life in a really noticeable way.
00:11:05
Speaker
And was that something that you considered during this kind of gradual transition to be like, you know what, maybe for my life and the kind of life I want to lead, is this going to be better for me than going to work for someone else?
00:11:20
Speaker
It's not something I ever really considered early on. My relationship with depression, it's been something that's been present since I was in college. But I think because that now is almost 20 years ago, what we know and how we talk about all of that and our understanding of it is so culturally and personally different because there's a lot more information.
00:11:44
Speaker
So it wasn't something I had really, and I didn't even know how at that point, like how recurring it would be or what it would look like in my life. So it wasn't something that I had considered. But since now that I know a lot more about myself and I have had stronger bouts and like I understand
00:12:04
Speaker
For lack of a better word, what depression can look like for me in my life. It is something that I've sometimes actually considered like would I be better suited with maybe more stability or like just getting a salaried paycheck or some of those things. I have considered it from the opposite angle of would it be better for my mental health to not be self-employed?
00:12:28
Speaker
And I haven't arrived at an answer at that. I mostly come to, I think it's like that phrase, wherever you go, there you are. I would bring some of those things and I don't know if it would resolve the underlying issues. And I think something you might have written or whatever about why for you it's important is that I do really appreciate the luxury of
00:12:50
Speaker
When depression is very serious and I feel like I can't really get out of bed that I can make that choice Yes But on the other and I also feel like sort of it's a double-edged sword where I know Something that I have to do is force myself into doing all these normal Regular things because they help tremendously, right? So yeah
00:13:12
Speaker
That is very much a double edged sword and I feel seen by that too. I always say that the flexibility piece is one of the biggest things for me. I think there is another side to that though that even I don't usually think about, which is sometimes having more structure keeps you focused on other things, right? Or getting out of the house and going to an office, things like that.
00:13:36
Speaker
And it may be for some people that means renting a space that they actually go to or going to a co-working space and getting a membership, things like that. Like there are ways that you can still structure working for yourself to deal with some of those challenges.
00:13:53
Speaker
and having the flexibility to do that, but I think it's really important to just look at it from both sides and say, you know what, not everything about this is going to necessarily make depression or anxiety easier, right? Sometimes it may make it a little harder and just being willing to kind of look at that over and over for a lifetime and improve incrementally how you're doing this. So I definitely, definitely resonate with that.
00:14:18
Speaker
And I think because it ebbs and flows, right? So like many women or people, humans with mental wellbeing challenges that we all face, it kind of can come and go. But it sounds like you said you've kind of over the 20 years with this challenge,
00:14:35
Speaker
maybe identified some ways that it shows up in your life. And if you're willing, in the spirit of helping people feel connected and like they are alone, are you open to talking about how it shows up in your life and how it affects your work as an entrepreneur?
00:14:49
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it's changed and evolved. I just recently had a bout of depression that kind of surprised me because I'd had the longest period in a while. The last time I had a stronger period of depression was in right before the pandemic started and then while there was a pandemic, so that added a lot.
00:15:10
Speaker
fun things to all of our lives. And I'd gone through a period of, so I guess if this was this fall, that's three plus years without like, not that I didn't have mental health ups and downs, but it wasn't the kind of debilitating where it is hard to function like a normal person, whatever normal is. Normal isn't the right word.
00:15:35
Speaker
Yeah, the will to participate in life decreases significantly. I want to sleep all the time. I mean, this time it was so bad that it was being alive was painful.
00:15:50
Speaker
And which is sort of hard thing to explain if you've never experienced it. But I remember sitting on the stairs when it was really bad talking to my partner and I'm asking him, I didn't even know like, it's so crazy that just being alive, nothing is wrong. Like physically can be so incredibly painful. So yeah, but for me, the key indicators of something is off typically starts with sleep, appetite,
00:16:18
Speaker
and wanting to do things like, I don't really play games on my phone, but I'll start doing weird or not wanting to go to sleep. I'll want to either go to sleep or before, at the beginning, I'll want to distract myself with a bunch of random things. Yeah.
00:16:36
Speaker
Well, and I'll say, I think I told Mallory this, but when we were reading through some of your notes, I was just like, I cannot wait to talk to her because I feel so seen in this moment. And I feel like maybe she needs to hear that this also happens.
00:16:54
Speaker
on the anxiety side of things because it's been very similar for me where you'll go through these periods of times like years at a time.
Coping Mechanisms in Business
00:17:04
Speaker
I would also say for me since 2020 and then you suddenly end up in a place where you're like I kind of
00:17:11
Speaker
I thought I was past this. Like I thought maybe I was past this. And then for me, it makes me doubt whether I even have the tools for it. You know, if I've ended up here again, did I somehow not develop all the tools that I thought I did?
00:17:28
Speaker
And so for me, like 2023 was that time for me and it was awful. And you say, you know, being alive is painful. And I would say my version was like being alive was just frightening and feeling frightened all the time when nothing has happened is a really tough place to do your job from to be a good friend, a good partner. And especially when nothing specific has happened, really.
00:17:55
Speaker
It's a tough thing to explain, right? But it's something that a lot of us do understand. And so I want to make sure you feel that you're not the only one going through that either, because our timing really kind of aligned on this. And I was like, yes, exactly. And it's something where every time you come to it, you come to in a different way, right? You come to this particular bout with 20 years of experience doing it.
00:18:20
Speaker
And so even though it can feel like you're back in the same place, you're really not in the same place because you're coming into it and living it with a 20 year history and success rate of dealing, right? And the same for me, which is what I forget to tell myself, so I'm telling you. And yeah, so just know that it is something that definitely happens to a lot of us. And if for listeners, that is something that has happened to you too, just
00:18:46
Speaker
know that we're there with you in this moment and it does make working and living with the same level of joy that you normally have really hard. So one of the things that I can find myself doing is
00:19:02
Speaker
telling myself that I need to like appear fine, right? And that's really almost a triggering thing for me because anxiety and depression are invisible. And to most people, you know, you just look fine. So I'm curious, you know, if you have an approach to discussing depression in a professional setting, whether it's
00:19:25
Speaker
with clients or, you know, if you never do that and that's fine too, you have your own boundaries. But I'm curious, since it is something that people wouldn't outwardly see, you have it broken a leg, you're not in a cast, how do you navigate that in your work?
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I also think something else that you said about feeling like you've moved past depression because you have so much experience with it. Something that I wanted to highlight about that that was different about this experience is when I went through, when I said during the pandemic, a really difficult time, something that I learned in that experience finally, and it was part of probably my overall health and wellness journey, is
00:20:09
Speaker
I finally stopped treating depression as something I needed to cure and realized that I'm pretty sure probably every human experience is depression at one point or another and probably multiple times during our life. That probably really and truly is normal part of the human existence. So instead of treating it as something I had to fix,
00:20:31
Speaker
I think that was a big turning point for me. Yeah. And my experiences have taught me that it is something that ultimately beliefs us far, I've always been able to move through. And every time it looks different and maybe the tools and the kind of help I like, do I need to see a therapist? Like those things may look different, but it was nice because I didn't feel like there was something wrong with me or I was blaming myself or like,
00:20:57
Speaker
Like you said, like, how did I end up here? I didn't feel like, oh, I had done these things. Or if I had just done my daily meditation and written a journal and whatever you're supposed to do before you wake up, like then this wouldn't have happened to me. I could have been solved with the journal.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah. So this very, very, very, very much, even though there were like other factors in my life that contribute why this was bad, it also to me was like, oh, this is just an example of this might just be like the way that my
Transparency About Mental Health
00:21:28
Speaker
genetics or whatever it is that predisposes, because I was like, this is
00:21:33
Speaker
Really intense and unprised. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, and so when it came about again recently, how do you deal with that in your work when your work is largely weddings that are not going to get moved and, you know, things with shoot dates that people or clients are going to show up and if you're having a day where the depression is really, really strong, how do you manage that?
00:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, I've never had an experience where I felt like I couldn't show up to a photo shoot. I think I know that that could happen to me or someone. And I think part of that is I know that I need to do this and I want to do this. And even though I'm depressed, I feel enough of a connection to self preservation that I still care about things like my clients and my reputation and following through on these things that are a big deal.
00:22:31
Speaker
And so that is a part, like, I still have that connection, even when I'm in pretty dark places. And so I think that's important. So that is what helps me to do the thing. I also think separating myself from feeling depressed, you can, you know, feelings are facts. I don't want to go do the thing.
00:22:52
Speaker
But often I feel better when I go do the thing. But at the same time, I also now give myself a lot more grace and sometimes accept that during these periods, my capacity is much less. And instead of before trying to keep the capacity the same, I've gotten a lot better being like, I can only do these three things. Yes. And then I might not even do those three things. And maybe I end up behind on things and that's not great or ideal.
00:23:22
Speaker
But I am just a person trying to figure everything out. Yes. And so and you brought you asked how if I share this with clients and I do. I mean, some of my clients I've worked with for years who are on the marketing side of things and we talk about mental health. And so I will sometimes tell them it depends a lot on how I'm feeling. Often it is.
00:23:44
Speaker
When I'm feeling more distance like when I was saying that I was sitting on the stairs and feeling I could be like being alive So I wasn't talking to my clients that I didn't have enough space in fact like I think shortly after is when you sent me the Questionnaires for this and I was like I can't fill this out right now because I don't have enough distance from it And so that's a boundary for me of learning I have to be in a better place to be willing to discuss these things
00:24:11
Speaker
But for me, it's important to talk to clients about it because, like I mentioned, especially the marketing side, they're all having to go through the same things as me, as business owners. And I think it's important to see examples where you don't feel like you have to appear as fine, as you said, because I think that's a very analytic standard. That's a big part of our culture, but like many cultures that encourage this like strong face, hide all this stuff.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah. And that may be something that is there ways of boundaries, but I've learned that is not how I work in the world. I was probably something very important to learn because my upbringing was very much more like you just kind of hide everything.
00:24:55
Speaker
Well, and I think at that period of time, too, right, this was not a disgust. I mean, I didn't even have words for anxiety when I experienced it originally. It just wasn't the topic. So that can be pretty lonely at the time. But I think it's important what you're saying about making your own boundaries, whatever those look like, and knowing that your business, just because it's yours, doesn't have to be the priority. There are ways that you can
00:25:23
Speaker
just kind of downshift a little bit during these times and show yourself that grace and realize, you know what? I don't have the same capacity this week, this month, whatever. And that's fine. It's fine. Business isn't going anywhere. It's yours. It's not going anywhere. So I do. I do appreciate that, especially. And I hope people do hear that and really think hard about their own boundaries and their own management of their energy during these tough times.
00:25:52
Speaker
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00:26:12
Speaker
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00:26:42
Speaker
I think anybody who struggles with these challenges and quite frankly, anyone who doesn't just in life, we have to develop kind of a toolkit of or a tool bag of tactics and things just to get us through some of those hard times, no matter who you are. So I'm curious what it's like.
00:27:01
Speaker
Well, how do you know that you're coming out of a bowel depression? What is that like? And then what are some of those tactics that you use personally to help you get past where you currently are?
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah, for me, I can tell that things are changing because I start to feel a sense of actual joy again, and I can see things. When I say I can see things as in, I knew this was bad because I would look at the sunset or look at the snow here and these things that normally bring me some joy, even if I'm having a shitty day or things aren't so great or whatever.
00:27:39
Speaker
Oh, I have this disaster project or whatever. I would still be able to be like, oh, the snowfall or like, oh, that bird, like, you know, these little things, or I'm just my cup of hot coffee. So great. Those are strong indicators of my emotional and mental health. So when I can start to like see and connect to those things again, that's how a clear indicator that things are improving.
00:28:04
Speaker
I just feel a general like a little bit more, everything is a little more tolerable. There's a little more lightness.
00:28:11
Speaker
like the weight has literally come off. I would say I still feel the effects, but I do feel that lightness and like a little more hope and joy again right now. It's funny, like I do definitely have some things, but I don't even do some of the, like it's not that many things. It's often doing less in general. It is going to the one thing in this recent experience was I really like to cook a lot. It's really,
00:28:38
Speaker
It's something that I do to unwind. I like it because it has a beginning, middle, and end. I have a strong connection to food and where it comes from. I like to have a garden this summer. I guess I'm that modern cliche. Yes.
00:28:55
Speaker
She's getting chicken soon. I was going to say this actually reminds me of Lorca's episode and Lorca has a little farm. But she did say one of the things to build resilience or in tough times was one of the three things was taking space. So I'm not surprised that these things are lining up.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I normally cook, but in the last few years, business and like become a little obsessed because I started a second business in like that being successful, especially financially, which is something I've been like assessing. And so I haven't cooked as much because I felt tired and like I don't have the time and that's very unlike me. And so recently I was like, I'm going to cook things. Yes. And if I don't really want to and it's not bringing me the joy,
00:29:42
Speaker
And usually that process might give me a little joy at the end or at least a sense of I accomplished something. So that's beneficial. Another really important thing for me is going outside. In fact, I've thought about tattooing that onto my arm because sometimes you can, especially if you're self-employed, you just stay inside all the time. Yeah.
00:30:03
Speaker
And you don't have an autism where you need to go to or I don't have any photo shoots or client meetings or anything. And just a little bit of going out, even if it's on a short walk. So yeah, I made more of an effort to just go outside. Yes. So those are two really key things for me. I think you've mentioned movement too. What does movement play in this role for you?
00:30:28
Speaker
Yeah. So it's funny, when we were talking earlier about needing to appear fine and still functioning, during this period where I really was not doing so well, I still managed to train for a marathon, which I think is what you think. Okay. Sure. Sure. Maybe that wasn't the hard thing for you.
00:30:52
Speaker
Which I like training for, it wasn't the first one or anything. And it's something that I've kind of like become this roadblock thing of like, I would like to re-qualify for bosses and I'm very stubborn person. So this stubbornness was showing through. But I also know that part of the reason I just kept doing it, even though I definitely wouldn't say I took a lot of joy in the experience, was because it was something I'd committed to and seeing it through. I knew it was overall beneficial.
00:31:20
Speaker
And at one point I thought about maybe stopping and I talked to my partner and he's like, I think you really want to run a marathon. And I was like, I wish you would say I don't have to do that. Right. Like the answer I was looking for was let's just like not do that anymore. Yeah. But what I like about this is that
00:31:43
Speaker
part of your tools, whether you realized why you were doing them or not, was kind of going through some of the motions in a productive way of things that you held onto from before that made you feel joy or feel like yourself, right? And that's a big one. And
00:32:03
Speaker
Even if you're not doing the things to get the same amount of joy right then, like it's still creating that muscle memory, right? And it's still waking up those muscles that remember what it was like when you felt joy doing that. Right. Like you cooking reminds your brain and body that you enjoy cooking.
00:32:20
Speaker
Whether you feel that in the moment or not, like that does that. For me, it's, you know, grooming a horse or riding. And that can take me out of, you know, just really like get me in the present moment of being like, oh, yeah, like the smell of the barn, the sounds here, like the feel of my horse. These are all things that remind me of who I actually am. And those are so helpful in those times when you're like, what am I even doing?
00:32:49
Speaker
What are you even doing? And sometimes work is not the thing to dive into. Right. And that's OK. Sometimes it's not working and giving yourself on grace and saying, you know, the thing I need to do today is cook dinner. That's what I need to do. Right. I need to go brush my horse. That's what I need to do today. So yeah. Yeah. I think that's important.
00:33:12
Speaker
Well, you also bring up those things to remind you. I think it's important to know that sometimes you do the things that are good for you and they don't in the moment create the result you're hoping for, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep doing it. Right. When running was newer to me, it's in the way I run now, it's like a practice in my life. It was easier no matter what I was feeling to go run for 90 minutes and it would not fix everything, but give me space and distance.
00:33:38
Speaker
I run so much now that sometimes I can even do a long run and I can still end it really anxious. And you know, and I've been running for three and it's like, how? But it's because I'm more accustomed to it. But it doesn't mean I still didn't get a world of benefits. It's just part of like a lot of things are not always pleasant. Yeah. And that's just part of existence.
00:34:02
Speaker
Like talking to your partner about it, I think that's a key piece is that community piece and the support factor, which Mallory and I talk about a lot is, you know, those people can also remind you of who you are and what you like and the things that are good for you. And so a lot of the times it's just trusting someone else to be like, you know what, if he says that I really do want to do this, I'm going to trust him in this moment. That's probably what I want to do. So I think that's a good thing to just call out as well.
00:34:31
Speaker
Now there have been from your notes you shared with us before the episode. So there's been some other challenges in hard times in your life outside of the depression. And I do want to give another trigger warning here. If disordered eating is a trigger for you, please go ahead and skip the rest of this episode and catch us next week.
Disordered Eating and Societal Pressures
00:34:52
Speaker
So Tori, you'd mentioned you'd be open in sharing some of your challenges that you faced with disordered eating. If you're still open to talking about that.
00:35:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's actually very common. Some studies say that like probably about 70% of women and in general humans regardless of gender, especially in our culture struggle with disordered eating, it's considered kind of a lot of the advice we're given around how a lot of it could be considered disordered, but it's considered normal and healthy
00:35:25
Speaker
even if it might actually be counterintuitive to true health. Yeah. So I started off with that just in like the probably the more normal way, but through depression, depression. I want an experience about
00:35:40
Speaker
seven or eight years ago, it really affected my appetite and I really leaned into that and my body changed rather drastically. But simultaneously, it's when I was seeing a therapist, I had gotten back into running and realized that running could be a tool for supporting my mental health in this activity that I do.
00:36:05
Speaker
for my overall health and wellbeing, whether or not I want to do it. So it's kind of funny that at the same time as I started to alter my body and change my behaviors drastically in that way, I got into running for myself and not for the way it made my appearance look at first.
00:36:25
Speaker
And at the time, I just thought I was being super, super healthy. And that was when I trained for and completed my first marathon. I did way better than I thought. Everybody commented on my appearance and how great I looked. And I got super into even more into cooking, but into like health-ifying everything. And I just thought I was
00:36:46
Speaker
just doing everything right and then over time and this is common in cases experiences like mine what i was really experiencing and learning after so out of control because of depression i suddenly was feeling so in control and i really like control a lot and i became really fixated on that but what i didn't realize is that i was
00:37:11
Speaker
basically beginning to kind of starve myself in my attempts to always be so healthy. I wasn't eating enough food just in general, but also considering the amount I was exercising. But based on all the information and feedback I was seeing about how you're supposed to eat,
00:37:29
Speaker
as like, if you want to be this really good runner, I thought I was doing all the right things. And yet I was really hungry and not feeding myself. And then I started to become obsessed with food. And I didn't realize that was a sign of actually when you're not eating enough food, that's what your body does to protect yourself. Yeah. So I learned all these things gradually, but it was a very difficult time once I realized that things had gone
00:37:57
Speaker
how deep it had gone to where like I couldn't focus in conversations because food noise was so loud. It was very debilitating. I actually worked a lot less that time. Unfortunately, I had a lot of savings and I didn't even really know or understand and I did end up getting help from nutritionists and whatnot of learning. But yeah, that was very challenging.
00:38:21
Speaker
And it's something where what I liked that you shared there was that you a little bit over compensated for the thing that you really want. Right. Which is control over your mind and body. And I think we all want that. I do. And sometimes the pendulum can swing too far the other way to where something that was healthy and a good thing to focus on becomes too big of a focus. Right. And then swings back to unhealthy.
00:38:49
Speaker
or unproductive or unhelpful and that's just something to be aware of. It's not you didn't do anything wrong and you know, for me it might be swinging too far into like trying to make everything safe and predictable and then stripping the fun out of my life.
00:39:09
Speaker
you know, because you go all in on the thing that you think will make you feel better. And all the better if it's told that it's healthy, right? If society tells you you're doing a great job and you're getting this sense of control, well, what could be better? Until you realize, I've actually taken this too far now. Well, it's just too far.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm curious why you think culturally like I think we've talked about this actually this season with the nutritionist Heidi about just the cultural lessons that were given and how we even treat each other as women commenting on appearance that maybe we don't realize we're doing. And so how have you found that that impacted you during that time or sense? Right. Like this culture still exists. You're still living in it, but you're clearly dealing with it in a different way now.
00:39:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think part of giving up the control and all, there's so much that goes into it. I would say there was a small period of time where I clinically would have been diagnosed with an eating disorder and not just disordered eating.
00:40:14
Speaker
But there's all this stuff that is literally happening in your mind, that it goes way beyond just what you hear from the cultural pressures. But part of the healing part for me was letting go of control of my body. And we are taught that we can 100% control exactly what we look like and we should just be able to adhere to X diet and you can look X way. But what I had learned
00:40:41
Speaker
especially through like the lens of intuitive eating, which is the brow I went for finding a way through, is my body has a way where it's sort of happy. And it's kind of decided that. And we all have that probably realistically, there's theories behind this like set weight theory that we all are kind of innately have that and it looks different for everyone. So I think what's challenging is if
00:41:07
Speaker
you culturally were told thin is best or strong or whatever it is for that month. I mean, I think for me, one of the groundbreaking things was I had always thought that if I work, do X, I could always change and control everything. And suddenly someone has told me that actually, no, my body has its own version of what is healthy for it. And you can't actually change that no matter what you want to do or you can, but the side effect of changing that.
00:41:33
Speaker
is that your whole life is going to be stolen from you because you're going to be obsessed about what you're eating and doing and you won't be able to partake in normal things because you're so busy. So those are your two choices. Culturally, it says that actually the real side effects of trying to make your body into what it doesn't want to be, they say that that doesn't exist. That's not real. That's a lack of
00:41:56
Speaker
If you just ate X diet or did this or whatever, I think that was probably why one of the hardest lessons is accepting that there are realities in place beyond just your own willpower and whatever else you want to say.
00:42:11
Speaker
Well, and that if you really focus on that and you are more intuitive about it and your body is happy, you will be happier, right? And accepting that and by trying to constantly be something else, that's not happiness. That's not filling you with joy. And so, you know, not being at war against your own body or your mind is the best thing that you can do.
00:42:39
Speaker
Something else to me that I took away as a parallel to like the small business culture, especially the women's small business culture, about this like control piece and is there so much advice and there's a lot of courses and there's all this stuff that's like, you can accomplish anything. And I'm not saying that you can't accomplish anything, but it does negate that oftentimes, and this has changed a lot since 2020, but like the privilege piece. A lot of times this is affluent white women talking or
00:43:08
Speaker
negating that you have all like people who are struggling to find shelter and food and like the basic necessities and they have education and they have a family to fall back upon or fret like these things. Like to me, it made me feel like not that you can't still achieve so much and accomplish a lot, but there are these real things and maybe not everything is overcomeable. Like for instance, depression.
00:43:33
Speaker
that might be something I am always having to live and deal with. It really struck home for me that not everything is in control. Yeah, we're told all the time, but we're kind of also told, if you do all these things, then you can convince this whole we're not in control piece.
Cultural Expectations and Self-acceptance
00:43:50
Speaker
And so it made me think too a little bit differently in the business space and maybe my problem isn't that I didn't manifest as well enough or whatnot.
00:43:59
Speaker
not that there's anything wrong with manifesting, but also at the same times we take things to such extremes. Yes. I'm totally following you for sure. You haven't heard Heidi's episode by the time we're recording this, but by the time this episode comes out, it will
00:44:15
Speaker
have been the episode before yours, but she does talk about intuitive eating. So I like drawing that parallel back to a way to guide people through that is from the dietitian. And now from personal experience, it seems like it might be a good avenue for people to explore if they're interested in learning more about that.
00:44:32
Speaker
No. I'd actually like to say something else about it, even though this is not a question from you. Yes, of course. Because I wrote this in my survey, but intuitive eating is also not perfect. There is no perfect solution for anything. But I will say by learning to actually
00:44:49
Speaker
feed myself. Well, I cannot believe how drastically different, even if I'd never had a serious issue with disordered eating, I am so graceful that my relationship with food looks like it does now because I got the amount of energy we as culture spend obsessing over what we're eating or how we're exercising or what we're doing. It is like astronaut. It takes up so much of your energy
00:45:14
Speaker
And so the most part I just eat food, depending on what sounds good to me. And I know these sound like such simple, basic things, but I cannot tell you how much time and energy it gives me back. And when I like listen in conversations with friends and whatnot, because it's everywhere, I feel so much gratitude that it is like simpler. And I feel so lucky that I discovered and
00:45:37
Speaker
It was very, very, very, very, very, I could say more varies difficult to learn to intuitively eat and trust in my body could figure it out. And I will add, I think it was easier for me to accept because culturally, I still have a very acceptable body for what is considered. And I think that made it easier. I was like, Oh, I mean, I didn't look like what I imagined myself.
00:46:00
Speaker
So I want to add that caveat, because I do think that made it a little easier. But I just wanted to say this, because I think about it all the time, with my business. I'm like, oh, I have to think so much about this. I can do other things with my time. That's huge. And that's something that we actually also talked about this season with Lorca, about resilience, which was just learning to re-harvest energy in the places that you didn't realize you were abandoning it, which is, I think, what you're describing.
00:46:30
Speaker
really eloquently. And it's something that I'm also thinking about. I know Mallory does too. She has a busy life with two little kids and two hamsters and a husband and all the things. And we often just kind of abandon our energy in places that don't pay us back.
00:46:49
Speaker
And it's finding those pockets and then re-harvesting it. And you'll, you know, like you said, that's just transformative to the way that you can be as a human, be as a friend, be as a partner, be as a business owner, because you're not just giving it away to things that don't serve you. And so listening to your body and listening to your mind and saying, you know what, where am I wasting valuable energy that I don't have to?
00:47:18
Speaker
is such a huge thing and that's something that I think every listener can relate to and honestly should take a hard look at and find one thing, one place that you are abandoning energy that isn't serving you and just commit to re-harvesting that.
00:47:34
Speaker
I mean, that's my whole first business is about brain space, creating more brain space. It's not related to life stuff, but it's related to business stuff. You know, this is the same way. So what to kind of add on to when Nicole said, yes, do that. But also you can look at your business and think, where am I losing energy in what I'm doing to make the business function? Is it something I need to personally be doing? Is it something I have the resources to
Energy Management Strategies
00:47:58
Speaker
hire out? Does it even need to happen anymore?
00:48:00
Speaker
Is it fulfilling the long-term goals? Can I make it more efficient with systems? Could I gain brain space there? So there's places where maybe we can do that both in the professional and in the personal setting. Yes. And there was another question that I heard on a podcast recently. And he said basically think about the times and situations where you thought
00:48:24
Speaker
I want this to go on forever. I wish I could do this all the time. And to really focus on what was going on, who was around, what were you doing, what values were you exercising? And that was just a really, I don't know, it seems simple when you say it, but I heard it and I was like,
00:48:43
Speaker
That's just a great mind exercise that I should, like I should be writing that down because there are times when you feel that way and we just kind of let them pass. And if we really wrote them down, like I think there's a lot of patterns that we would see there in how we can make life more joyful
00:49:02
Speaker
just by paying attention to our own bodies and minds. Like that's the whole point of the season, right? It's just paying deeper attention to yourself than you are to the culture or the expectations or even your own goals that maybe aren't serving you. So just think about the times when you thought, I wish I could do this forever and write them down and look at them and say, what does this mean?
00:49:27
Speaker
That's a good segue into our fun closer.
Finding Joy in Community
00:49:30
Speaker
I know we probably you have more you'd like to talk to her about, but in respect of everyone's time, it leads to we were just talking about noticing the joy. So Tori, for your fun closer question right now, what is bringing you joy and wonder in your life?
00:49:45
Speaker
Well, I think in the spirit of often when I am not feeling depressed, I feel like quite a failure at pretty much everything. And I second-guess everything, and I'm like, what am I doing? I do everything wrong. I know no one else out there in the world ever has these thoughts. Yeah, right. No, it's only you. It never goes. Only you. Depression is actually, it's all located in one person, and it's you.
00:50:12
Speaker
But right after Christmas, I like to bake and I like to bake with sourdough, but I never made sourdough baguettes. And I decided finally because we were supposed to travel for the holidays, but then our family member got COVID so we didn't go. So I was kind of stuck at home, not stuck, but I felt like that, oh, we were going to do something. We're not doing something. What am I going to do? And I decided to try making sourdough baguettes and they turned out better than I was expecting. And
00:50:41
Speaker
for all the negative thoughts, I delivered them to my neighbors in the morning. And as I was doing it, walking through the snow and my slippers and my pajamas, I was like, okay, this is an example of doing something right. And maybe also something to pay attention to because this is what's making me really happy and feel alive and connected and community, all these things matter. And I'm like, this has nothing to deal with
00:51:10
Speaker
It's not because I made a baguette. That's not really it. It's more that I wanted to share something I did with people and I didn't even know one of these. I just met one of the neighbors and they were like, I don't know, taking that risk of, here, do you want a baguette that I'm handing to you?
00:51:28
Speaker
Yes. That was something that brought me a tremendous amount of joy and reminded me, like you said, figuring what are the things you wanted really more of in your life and that in my business, that's what I'm asking myself a lot of lately because I feel like I've been chasing some things that I'm like, I'm not seeming to find more peace.
00:51:48
Speaker
Great. Yes. Is this filling me with joy? No. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a perfect example of one of those things that we should be writing down and saying this was a moment where it was so great that I actually recognized it in the moment that I was loving it.
00:52:05
Speaker
and to just put it on a piece of paper, put it in a jar, write it in a journal, somewhere that we can go back to and say, here were such good moments from this month, this year, that I want more of and how do I get more of those?
00:52:22
Speaker
And I think that's really important. So thank you so much for your openness and for talking about some tough topics, but ones that women really need to hear about and men too, frankly. And that we want to be out there more so, not that people shouldn't, you know, try to keep doing what they're doing, but you don't have to appear fine all the time.
00:52:47
Speaker
And I think that's important lesson. So thank you so much, Tori, for coming on and we will talk to everyone in our next episode. Thanks for listening. Hop over to UnboundBoss.com to join our community and leave us a voice memo. We absolutely love hearing from you. If you like the podcast, please subscribe, leave us an Apple review and share your favorite episodes with other women entrepreneurs. Talk to you soon.