Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Beneath the Evergreens, where murder, mysteries, and mayhem lurk in the shadows of the Pacific Northwest. I'm Nina. I'm Jess. And I'm Anna.
Speaker: From haunted forests and unsolved it disappearances. To true crime cases buried deep in the moss in the midst. We're digging into the dark secrets hiding under the evergreens.
Speaker: Each episode will explore real cases, eerie encounters, and the legends that keep the Pacific Northwest up at night. So grab your flashlight, lock your doors, and join us.
Speaker: I like that addition. That was spooky. It's a spooky season. i'm sorry That was spooky.
Speaker: Well, welcome, welcome, welcome, everyone. How is your week going, Jess? Fantastic. It's the best darn week in the in the whole world, especially because we have a new friend here today.
Speaker: we Do we do? I'm sure everyone heard her in the intro. I am calling this our fall spectacular. We have our friend Nina joining us from the East Coast this time. um In my mind, the East Coast is like really fall. Like I feel like in the Pacific Northwest, we get like ah Eastern Washington gets a little yellow and then it's just cold and dead and rainy for some months.
Speaker: But in efforts to get a little bit more into the fall, i don't know fall feels, we have Nina joining us to tell us some fun stuff about Pennsylvania and get out of our Pacific Northwest, i don't know, little funk. The of Tacoma. I'm so excited to for Nina to be here. I'm so excited. No, seriously, like, i'm going to throw up, but I'm so honored to be here. And,
Speaker: I love listening to you guys. um Number one podcast. And I found my AirPods for this that have been lost for over a month. So it was a really We're doing good in the world. i love it. It was a really important moment. so no Truly honored to be here. I mean, Pennsylvania is as spooky, I feel like, as the Pacific Northwest. I mean, I literally live in trees surrounded by mountains and Appalachian Trail and all of that. And we have cicadas, which is pretty gross and crazy. So terrifying. you just say that you love cicadas? I do love cicadas. did you because i'm from washington it's because i'm from washington and i only hear them when i go on trips and so to me it's like ah it's a lulling sound i've never actually seen a cicada i've only heard them my first experience with cicadas was in pennsylvania and i thought my ears were ringing for the first week i was there i could not figure out what it was and then it was one of the years where they all died so they're just cicada carcasses all over the ground like a month it was horrible
Speaker: I just equate them to crickets or like frogs. No, no, there's more to this story. And it's only like a couple weeks at a time. no Be our cicada expert. Educate us on like these things. I honestly don't know too much except that they're gross and they literally only come like every few years, like, and they just like all show up.
Speaker: And the worst place to be is like a campground. I have like horror stories of camping with my family because they're just like, They land on everything. Like they'll land on you. Like they're not afraid. They only live for like a couple days too. It's, it's wild. But literally during those couple days, they just constantly reproduce and then they leave their shells. So like all their shells are just like left behind, like graveyard basically after they're done. Okay. I think I have a different, I must be thinking about something different because this whole story, don't register. That's not the cicadas that I know and choose to know. Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, you'll have to look them up. Like, they're pretty gnarly, and they're and they're big. So that's, like, the worst part, too. Are those the ones that make the sounds at night, right? Yeah. like the But it's like it's, like, all day, isn't it? Like, it's louder at night, but I feel like I remember it during the day, too. yeah it's Yeah, it's, like, all day. um They're just around, yeah. But they come in, like, a huge wave, like, every couple of years, and stay inside is is what I recommend. Yeah.
Speaker: okay so Pennsylvania cicadas stay away from them and then yeah I heard that you're also bringing us a story that will also keep us out of Pennsylvania honestly I'm moving out after we finish this podcast I literally could not sleep the past two nights because I'm thinking about this this person that I did a research on folks well cool I guess I'll start off so I'm gonna ask you guys a question oh So what's the first thing or I guess sentence or whatever that comes to mind when you think about the PA Amish?
Speaker: Horses. Or just the Amish in general. Horses. And don't they say weed now? I think I heard that too. So I didn't see that. illegal in Pennsylvania, right?
Speaker: It is. Yeah. Okay. So I guess that's the difference. Yeah. Between our states is it's definitely a little bit stricter on this side of the the country. My cicadas and my Amish are a lot different than Pennsylvania cicadas and Amish people.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Well, honestly, I'm happy you said that because that's probably the first thing that would come to my mind too. I know Anna's seen um Amish people. Have you, Jess?
Speaker: No, no. I mean, I've seen documentaries, but never in person. No. Okay, cool. Well, it is really interesting. And it's like, it's funny, because it's like things that I feel like we never think about, just because like we live in it. And I'm really close to Lancaster County, which is like the biggest population of Amish people. So it's like, it's just totally normal. And even though I kind of live in the boonies up here, like we still see like horse and buggies and like the Amish at like the shopping stores and stuff too. So it's kind of
Speaker: It's interesting. Of course, our story is going to be about an Amish man. So I figured I'd give like a little background on like the Amish culture for those who might not know, especially if a lot of your viewership is those on the West Coast.
Speaker: So yeah, so basically it's been around since the fifteen hundreds which is freaking long time. It basically started off as like the Anabaptist movement in Europe, and it just became like a Christian reform movement that was emphasizing like separation basically from society, which is what they're also like well known as being as separate from society. It emphasized simple living and then strong church community and accountability.
Speaker: The birth was basically, it started with this guy named Jacob Amman. He was a Swiss Anabaptist leader. Oh, sorry, 1693. If I say anything wrong, like I found this all on the internet, so hopefully... I don't offend anybody, and especially any of your Amish listeners. I'm going to really try to stay true to the the facts that I found. didn't realize Amish amish were ah podcast connoisseurs. You know, that's one of the common misconceptions that they don't... um
Speaker: So, yeah, so this guy 1693, he wanted some stricter church discipline, plain dress wear, the rigorous use of shunning. um So that's very big in the Amish community where if you don't follow their rules, then you're shunned from the community. And it means like...
Speaker: They can have no communication like with the family or anything. So it's like a very like serious deal. Like if you don't follow like what they advocate for, you're out. Yeah. Like, could you imagine just like starting over like a whole new life and not have your family or support or, you know, just because you decided you didn't want to be a part of that anymore so it's especially something where it's like the transition would be so hard like going from not really using any technology to like this world that we live in today like and then no support i can't i know yeah like you're just starting on your own it's like it's like moving to a different country basically just like yeah a whole new way of life but the split in 1693 disagreements over these practices led to ah division and then amin's followers became known as the amish so i'm guessing it's kind of similar to his name
Speaker: And then they ended up migrating to North America in the 1700s, started sharing their beliefs and traditions, and they started establishing rural farming communities where they could practice their faith freely, maintain close-knit communities, and preserve their traditional customs and values. So another thing about them around here is that they tend to own like large pieces of land And also farms. So they do a lot of farming and they have a lot of stores where they sell produce.
Speaker: i I don't think I've seen an Amish community that was closer to a city or like in a small area. It's it's always where there's land. The specific area that I'm going to be talking about today is Crawford County.
Speaker: which actually in the United States contains the greatest number of the distinct Amish community of any county in the U.S. And they have seven separate Amish communities.
Speaker: They had a lot of growth in America. In 1920, there was 5,000 Amish people total in the United States. And now there are more than 400,000.
Speaker: So it is interesting, like within 100 years, i don't even know what the math is on that. quadrupled like it's like insane um how it just like grew and it's still something that's like being practiced today so it is interesting and pennsylvania has the largest amish population 92 000 amish residents 63 settlements i didn't realize there was like that many because that's about a fourth of the populations in pa i didn't realize there was amish people like really outside of pennsylvania
Speaker: They're all over the country. i just don't think that they go, like, as far west as you guys. Like, I don't think there's – I think the furthest I saw was Montana, which I guess is pretty close, right? Yeah, that tracks. I feel like that tracks, though. There's a lot of, like, almost like colony, almost like things on Montana. Amish adjacent. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Like primitivists, if you will.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And like the Amish man I'm to be talking about, he was actually in the farthest point of Pennsylvania. So actually like close to Ohio, technically. So few like fun facts about them. Why do they not own cars?
Speaker: So they reject cars because they believe cars are evil. To avoid ownership, they avoid ownership because automobiles can increase individualism encourage constant travel and weaken local community connections. So like they are very like close knit and they don't really travel super far. That's why they think that, but I guess they probably do use them for first responder purposes still.
Speaker: I kind of like that. Like, have a tight-knit community. yeah like You're not in and that quite as much of a rush. That sounds kind of How cool would it be? i mean, I don't know how you guys would feel about this have just like a family compound. Just like, at least, I guess it depends on the day.
Speaker: yeah if i could like have like chosen people though like if i didn't have to always interact with people that i like didn't like or like didn't want to like if i could just have like a core group people that like maybe i'll venture out but like we come back and i spend 90 of my time with you guys like that would be kind of nice yeah i love that and i would love it just he's like eventually no anna i don't spend that much time with you You would not be on my call. um No, i could i like I could see it, but I feel like, I don't know.
Speaker: i think I've watched too many documentaries where I'm like, that's a slippery slope. Then there's going to become like some leader. We're going to be like colt culty. no But what about like if you're within a couple miles and you can like take your golf cart there or something? Oh, for sure. I could yell and be like, Jess, come here. Like if we lived in like a neighborhood like setting, maybe if it was like HOA like, I could probably, I could probably get on board with it like an HOA type situation. but that's kind of what it's like but just i see the appeal because it's like very americana like it's almost like if we were to go back to the like the 1950s it is very much like you have your true friends and that's your group your core group of people you may meet people at work but they're not necessarily but everyone kind of is on the same wavelength like i i do appreciate that and like yeah like broader community you can like don't know like raise your kids together like
Speaker: do your things together and like, you just like have shared interests and you're looking out for each other. Yeah. So yeah I see the appeal. I do see the appeal as long as, you know, women have rights and all that. I'll keep going through. okay So church life and worship, we talked a little bit about, so they have services every two weeks. They typically last two and a half to three hours. Um, and then they have fellowship after with their families and their homes. They have like large meals And they just spend a lot of time um together. so that happens. And then shunning, we talked a little bit about. So it's their form of discipline. Basically, it's the goal.
Speaker: The reason behind it is because they are trying to preserve like the purity and the unity of the church. So like if you don't follow like what the rules are or if you want to leave the church, then shun.
Speaker: They will chug you. Well, I guess I should go into my crazy story. Yes. Yes. Crazy. finally excited i'm Excited. This man, his name is Edward ginger rich.
Speaker: Um, and he was from that Crawford County, which is outside of Erie, Pennsylvania. Also, I just have to throw in this other wild tangent. Um, another thing I was going to say about Amish people, what I know about Amish people is have you heard of black eyed children?
Speaker: B E K S. No, Holy fuck. You guys need to read up on that. Actually, maybe don't. If you are scared of the Amish now, don't look into them. But for those listeners out there that I'm going to cut this, it doesn't matter. But essentially, black eyed children are like these kids that are dressed out in out of date clothing and people think they're aliens or like demons. I don't know what they think they are. But every time I hear someone talk about them, I picture an Amish child.
Speaker: And so way for the rest of this story, I will be thinking about this person that you're about to tell me as the black eyed demon monster that comes to everybody's talk. Well, I'm sorry. And I should say that a lot of Amish people are very nice. And like, like, it's like this is like, you're just the kindest person.
Speaker: says, I'm so sorry that you're making associations. That is all on you. but but and let me just on behalf of the Amish community defend them from your your own personal storyline well if you think about it like I mean this is like one of i don't know i can't remember if this is like the only I think I something like this is the only like Amish murder case um It's at least the first, which was in the 90s, but it might be one of the only like reported. like We don't know maybe what goes on behind the scenes, but usually they do bring in like law enforcement. so um yeah So it is kind of interesting, like despite like how many there are and that there really isn't a lot of crime.
Speaker: Yeah. So hopefully nobody thinks that they're like murderers if they don't really know. fuck yeah but
Speaker: All right. I guess I should talk about him now. This guy, Edward. He was born in 1963. The story takes place in the 90s in 1993.
Speaker: He was the first Amish person that was convicted of homicide, and he did plead guilty to voluntary manslaughter for the death of his wife, Katie. His case really gained a lot of national attention because of how serious and violent the crime was, and it was really, really uncommon and still is like among the Amish communities for like to hear of like any violent behavior. This case, and it's apparently very well known. like I even asked like Dennis and he like has heard of it. I didn't hear of it. He was born to Danny and Mary Gingerich. He was nothing like his father. he was basically defined, his father was considered Old Order Amish, which is's just like a little bit stricter. than what they are now. And he, Ed, considered himself like totally opposite. He was a little, he was more lazy. And if you know the Amish, they're not lazy. Like they're up early and they're working in the field and they usually have um livestock. And so they're, they're definitely pretty active. He was moody, short tempered. He completed like all of his schooling, um which is eighth grades of Amish education. and he was actually living in Ontario, Canada at the time.
Speaker: So Canada does have Amish too. By June of 1985, their settlement had grown to 13 families with a population of 93. His dad had built a diesel power sawmill And Ed was eager to learn like the mechanics of this operation. So something that like really first piqued his interest. And he started to impress like his fellow Amish men with his natural mechanical knowledge and skill. He would oftentimes avoid church by faking illness. and he would spend his time at a friend's nearby farm. When he began confiding in his friend, he realized that he was starting to kind of not really understand the Amish way of life and disliked basically a lot of things about that way of life.
Speaker: He also confided in his friend that he had been thinking about leaving the Amish faith, but he wasn't really sure how to do it. um He felt really trapped. And like we kind of talked about earlier, like imagine just like leaving and not having any backing, especially like that young.
Speaker: continued to be viewed as a rebellious Amish person. and they thought, like the community thought that if he were to marry, then would basically like straighten him out and give him a little bit more maturity. So he married his wife in 1985. She was 21 and she was the sister of a coworker and theneath the niece of the clan's bishop, which I think the bishop is kind of like maybe high up in their community. I didn't really look into that too far, but yeah, they made it seem like he was pretty high up. So Katie was an energetic, hardworking young woman. She exemplified what it meant to be old order Amish. Her father, Levi, was one of the most respected elders in the community. And her mother, Emma, worked hard to keep the family running smoothly and had raised five children. Another thing about the Amish, they tend to have big families, which means a lot of kids. And I think I saw that they could have up to like 15 kids is pretty common, which is
Speaker: which is a lot of kids So i mean these are some tough people but just for that. And none of those kids are iPad kids. So you got to like entertain.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. damn I know. Yeah. They just, they're just outside. Like that's why you see them like all outside, like running around and sports and everything. Yeah. Okay. So Ed and Katie, quite an unlikely pair, dated on and off for a year. And then ed started feeling pressure from the elders so this story kind of made it seem like he wasn't really interested in getting married um but he kind of felt pressured to he was next in line to be married yeah so that basically he ended up proposing to katie he felt like if he didn't marry her the community would shun him and that scared him too he ended up proposing and they got married poor katie and poor katie i know i know i don't know
Speaker: What was going on. But yeah, she she struggled a lot because what ended up happening was that he basically was slowly pulling away like they did have a few kids and he spent like most of his time like in a sawmill and just working rather than being home like with the family and he would come home late and leave early in the morning. And you could tell he was just kind of disinterested in being part of his family and spending time with them. Through that, like while he was just working and never home, he became friends with a non-Amish man named Dave Lindsay, who came into the shop one day. And Lindsay ah reportedly challenged Ginger's Amish beliefs and encouraged him often to leave his faith.
Speaker: Gingerich was repeatedly told that unless he abandoned his Amish practices and became a born-again Christian, he would be condemned spiritually. So this kind of started like his mental decline, basically conflicting views of like not sure what to do. but i mean, it even just pointedly says here, like it just we led him to have a lot of confusion. and like not really know what he wanted to do and experiencing severe depression and family members started to become really concerned about his emotional well-being started experiencing hallucinations delusional thinking and severe paranoia cool that would be scary especially if you're like super paranoid all the time and then you're like getting that rhetoric of like god is always watching you yeah that would be that would be a rough existence
Speaker: Yeah. absolutely It was definitely deteriorating. And he ah but his community of members became so frightened by his behavior that they eventually sought emergency assistance by calling 911. He was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And he was prescribed medication at that point to help control his system, his symptom. He didn't like the side effects of the medication and ultimately start taking his medication. So then his deterioration continued and his mental health just kept worsening. He started to get delusions um and it started affecting like the delusions began influencing how he viewed people close to him. As the psychosis intensified, he became convinced that he was trapped or controlled. Influences outside of the Amish community reinforced his fears about his spiritual condition. He started having delusions about Katie.
Speaker: he allegedly came to associate Katie with evil forces and believed that she represented the devil. And these beliefs were just symptoms of his deteriorating mental state rather than what was actually happening.
Speaker: While i while i emphasize, I definitely emphasize for him. But poor Katie having to like deal with this. And like I'm sure just because religion is kind of not fraught, that's not the word I'm looking for, but...
Speaker: it's very hard to divorce somebody and like advocate for yourself in a marriage like that. And I could not imagine what she had to go through, especially if he starts thinking that she's the devil, that, Oh, that poor woman probably had a nightmare. Well, we don't know, like maybe she like really loved him. And, um, like, I'm sure she cared for him like on some level and like, I mean, just viewed him having mental illness, you know, and and like, what do you do? And like, how do you help like a loved one with that? So it's like, yes, I'm sure it was very tough. And then yeah, so it came to a point where just randomly on this one day, ed just comes home.
Speaker: enters the kitchen where Katie was, and he punches her in the face and knocks her to the ground um in front of their six-year-old son, who was in the room at the time. She screams for him to go get help. and the young boy runs a mile to his uncle's home, which is Ed's brother. And by the time the uncle came back, Katie was already dead. so Oh, my God. That poor little boy.
Speaker: Yeah. And just imagine, yeah, like the kids, like watching that happen is just so... traumatic and like them now, like how they have grown up and just live with that experience. Can't even imagine. The uncle was like terrified of what he saw because he saw Katie's body and he feared for his life and ran to a nearby family where he called 911. They arrived on the scene. They had saw that he had beaten Katie to death. He stomped on her skull.
Speaker: And so you couldn't even recognize her face, removed all of her internal organs. and piled them on her body. Yeah. It's pretty insane.
Speaker: Oh my gosh. Yeah. So it was just like, totally like out there too. Like no no real like reason. Like that can be explained as a, not that there it is ever usually when he, like when the police got him and they actually caught him because he was walking to um his, his dad's house to drop off the children. So after that happened, and he killed her he just takes his three children and starts walking down the street with them draw and just told them that he dropped them off at his dad's house so very bizarre were they in the house when this all was going on the yeah i think but i don't know i think the one witnessed it i'm not sure if all three did oh my gosh they may have all three yeah
Speaker: But they were in the house and he just calmly told them to get their jackets and that they were going to their grandpa's house. so How traumatic. That is so sad and scary.
Speaker: and And they might have even been young enough that they might not even have understood exactly. Like, I'm sure they understood that maybe she wasn't there, but like, like I'm sure processing that, I can't even imagine. Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So like he was caught right away, found guilty. he was only sentenced to a minimum term of two and a half years and a maximum of five years with credit for time served. I'm sorry, five years? Mm-hmm. He was actually eligible for parole after two years.
Speaker: For how brutal it was. For stomping on your wife's face and stacking her organs on her body in front of your children. Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. Was he declared mentally fit to stand trial or anything like that? yes so he was guilty of involuntary manslaughter but mentally ill i guess i get the mentally ill piece but that's still guess i'm not surprised like there's like i don't like i i guess i get a shorter sentence but like there's got to be some rehabilitation after the fact like and like required medication takage yes yes yeah i just i don't know i just
Speaker: Even then, it's like, to me, it's not okay to just kill somebody. Like, it's just like, I don't know. In such a horrific way, too. That's not like, oops, I pulled a trigger. That's that's intentional.
Speaker: Yeah. Brutal. That's brutal. Yeah. And um I don't know if I have exactly, I did read a little bit about, like, when they were basically interrogating him after and just, like, asking him, like, why'd you do that? Um, he was totally like, he, he thought that she would like come back to life almost. And like, it was just, it was very, it didn't make any sense. It was kind of gibberish. It it gets like kind of worse. I mean, it gets worse. Yeah. So like he was released, um, I think two and a half years.
Speaker: No, he was released in March 1998. So what was that? Five years. He actually ended up passing. He was found, he had hung himself in a barn in 2011.
Speaker: So a little over 10 years after it happened. And he wrote, forgive me, please, um in the dust atop a bucket before committing suicide. So pretty gruesome.
Speaker: Yeah, very heavy. And sorry, I don't have a happier story after this to of, no i think yeah I think it just highlights like how important mental health is and like yes really just taking care of yourself. And then it also brings into play like that whole, how do you help a family member that's in a crisis like this? And then after the fact, if they do something like this, do you stand by them? Do you not stand by them? Like, man, that's gotta be so rough of a position to be in.
Speaker: Yeah. And yeah, I'm sure they, they thought they were doing the best they could and they don't know. And honestly, it's like, I think it gets to a point where they have to try to help themselves too.
Speaker: And yeah yeah, I'm not sure what was going through his head really, but couldn't have been good. So yeah. Yeah. i mean, I guess ah at least his mental anguish is over. It's unfortunate what he did. i hope his kids are okay. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. yes Yeah, I know. I should have looked to see like where everybody is today. That was a great story, Nina, first of all. Thank you so much. Sorry, it was so dark. I feel like I should have gotten happier.
Speaker: but i think i think that's that's the nature of true crime, though. like it is it is not I think we we treat it as entertainment right now in society, but then when you're the one like telling the story and having to look up all these facts,
Speaker: it brings it home where it's like, Oh no, this is somebody's life. This was multiple people fact, like affected. So no, please don't apologize for that. Like, it's just part of the true crime space for sure. Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And it is like so interesting, like people's behaviors and, um, why people do certain things and like, they're never like the same, like they're always so different. So it's, it's definitely interesting. Um,
Speaker: But yeah, cool. That reminds me. Okay, I just watched the craziest show about... Speaking of like weird personalities and psychosis a little bit, I watched a show called Death of a preacher's Preacher's Wife or Pastor's Wife on Netflix. Oh, yes. Did you watch that? I didn't mean to watch that. no Watch it. No, I watched it. Watch it.
Speaker: It is like... nothing is what it seems. And then all of a sudden you get to like look behind the scenes and you're like, wow, mental illness is, is crazy. Um, and like what people will do to try and just like fix things.
Speaker: It's nuts. Watch it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll have to check it out. Well, that's it for today's dive into the dark corners of the Pacific Northwest. If you love the stories or shivered a little, be sure to subscribe and follow so you don't miss what's lurking beneath the evergreens next time. Thanks for joining us on Beneath the Evergreens.
Speaker: We appreciate you diving into the mysteries with us. Until next time, keep your eyes open and your doors locked.
