Transcript
Speaker: So it has a couple questions in there, right? Like, how did I get here? um and a few different things. I've had i've had quite a few lives at this point in life. But if I look back at the different careers I've held, the through line has always been a fascination with human connection, human behavior. How how do we how do we connect with each other, right? Whether that was when I was a marketing executive or an entertainment professional. it was always about the human experience and how we use it to to connect with each other. And so this is just another iteration of that. It's another iteration of my obsession, if you will. And and it and it came about, funny enough, it was actually I stepped down from my last role i as a marketing executive at a Mark Cuban company.
Speaker: And i was at a chapter of life where I was ready to kind of build something of my own. And I wasn't sure what that would be. And a friend of mine is an incredibly impactful life coach, wellness coach.
Speaker: Oh, gee, she's been doing it for 20 years, long before influencer culture and all of that stuff. yeah ah really has built um quite a beautiful business. And so we had a number of conversations and she was a part of helping me realize like I'm already doing the thing that I actually want to do. I was already a source of support for a lot of different people in the community. I was a, you know, event organizer, you know, leader within a number of communities here in Los Angeles.
Speaker: for many years and so people would come to me for the support and the guidance and the reassurance and all of that and so i realized i actually really enjoyed that and i also you know dating at the time you know people would find that they were able to have conversations with me that they weren't able to have on other dates and i really enjoyed that but i did realize i was kind of having the same conversations over and over again and i was like i would also like to grow and this isn't really working so creating honestly creating a coaching practice helped me create better boundaries in my personal relationship where I still get to show up for people and impart, you know, my training, my wisdom, my life experience. Cause I'm also, you know, I'm a mentor, I'm a coach and I'm an educator. And those are three different hats that I wear depending on, you know, what space I'm showing up in, what the, what the invitation has been, but it enables me to really continue my obsession, studying human behavior, learning everything I can, and then applying it
Speaker: And that's my passion is applying these things. It's not fulfilling enough to me to just do the research. I want to understand how we translate it and action it in our everyday lives to change and improve where we're at right now. So that's the work I do as a coach. Sure. a very like i think I didn't have to become a coach to to learn that some people are intimidated by me, which which baffles me because i'm just that I'm a very naturally curious, open, warm person, but I'm not responsible for how other people ah take me on.
Speaker: So it's always been fascinating to me. Anytime I've learned that anyone is and intimidated by me personally or professionally, i choose to to see that as that means that they're that they admire something in me. And so I appreciate that as positive feedback.
Speaker: But I i don't... I really enjoy being around people where we inspire each other and and from a growth oriented mindset. So, you know, I'll use ah a great example. So my partner that I've mentioned already now, we've been together two years. He has a wonderful way of handling a certain thing. So I'm a human being.
Speaker: Yes, I'm a coach, but I am also a human being. And that means i have fear and I have moments of insecurity. And I have, you know, maybe some old patterns that come up from time to time, even though I've been working on them for a long time, because we are,
Speaker: ongoing creatures. So my safety setting is coaching, right? So if there's like a hard conversation or I'm not feeling really good, the the way I can, I self-soothe is I go into, let me let me intellectualize this experience so that I don't have to actually feel it.
Speaker: Let me go into coach mode so we can you know fix this instead of just like being in it and moving through it together. And he knows me well enough to know, and he yeah he handles it beautifully.
Speaker: All he'll say with it with a cheeky little grin on his face is, okay, counselor. And that's my cue. of like, ah, I'm doing the thing. I'm not really in this with you. I'm trying to like coach that. That's not what I want to do Thank you. but Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Damn it. ah I love that. it It gets it done very simply. i can tell you guys are in sync, but I'm really curious. You live in London and Los Angeles, if I'm not mistaken. do do you see more interest in non-monogamy kinks and curiosities in London versus in the States?
Speaker: And or what are the differences? Because there are enormous cultural differences. Like I have dated some people um from London specifically or other places. And there are enormous cultural differences that you don't really realize until you're dating somebody.
Speaker: So, yeah, what are the differences just between the couples, clientele, the interest in London versus America? would say that the fears and insecurities between because these are two Western cultures, right? America and the UK, two very, you know, actually more, I would say more in common than than differences.
Speaker: The UK is very it has a lot of differences from the rest of Europe that make it more similar, I would say, to the U.S., um than the U.S. to the rest of Europe. But there are absolutely, I agree, absolutely. There are still cultural differences. I would say that we respond to fear and insecurity a little bit differently.
Speaker: i think in America, it's it's much more comfortable to respond with anger or judgment, push it away. Like, i don't want I don't want to feel that. You're wrong for making me feel that way. Versus the U.K., there's sort of like a shutdown that might happen. I'm just like, I don't know what to do with that. So I'm just going to have an uncomfortable silence.
Speaker: um Absolutely. Absolutely. A little bit different. Right. So both are forms of resistance or denial or whatever that is. And both cultures can be served by more curiosity.
Speaker: And I would say that since the UK is still technically a part of Europe, even with Brexit, it's still technically Europe. I agree with you. yeah like i I really hate the mental gymnastics of the fact that I'm supposed to like, act like it's somewhere else, some different place, some sectioned off region. I'm like, this is ridiculous. But anyways, go ahead. There are differences for sure between the UK and the rest of Europe, but just as as a part of the world, regardless of geopolitical definitions, they're they have more proximity to far more different kinds of cultures than the US. You know, we've got our neighbors, Canada and Mexico.
Speaker: And, you they know, there's a lot of people from all over the world in the U.S., but that we're not right there next to all those different cultures. Right. So versus Europe was 44 different countries right there. 44 different cultures, ways of seeing the world, ways of loving, ways of relating right there. And there's certainly much less. um Oh, what's the word I'm looking for? Europe in general is a general statement.
Speaker: Again, 44 different countries. But generally there is less of like shock and awe when it comes to multiple types of relationships. Like um yeah I would say...
Speaker: I might get in trouble for being specific, but I would say in France, there's maybe more of common like, oh, yeah, you have a wife and you have a mistress. yeah have You have a husband then and you have a lover. you had it's just sort of part of that thats sort of a culture. And we can do a whole episode on sort of the history of how monogamy became what it is in our you know current civilization. versus our actual human history. But that's a conversation for another day. It's a whole episode on its own.
Speaker: But I think there's just more proximity to more variety. And so it's not necessarily as You know, vilified per se This is my perception as an American, you know, coming back and forth. But I have clients, like I said, all over the world.
Speaker: this is not a um This is not a conversation or a curiosity that is defined by geopolitical borders, socioeconomic levels, anything. um I like to say from barristers to baristas.
Speaker: There are folks curious about kink, curious about building relationships that serve them better long term, curious to have the conversations that they don't feel they can have anywhere else.
Speaker: So do you are you do you spend the majority of your time in one place? I'm in the process of moving my base from L.A. to London, which will be happening like later this year.
Speaker: I'm very jealous. Oh my gosh. I'm so. so You sure you're jealous or not envious? andv is I am jealous. I am green with envy. ah I mean, that is that is really, really great. Congratulations.
Speaker: yeah So how can someone identify healthy amounts of jealousy or toxic jealousy in the relationships? Because there's clearly a difference. Absolutely. So the key here is jealousy in and of itself is neither negative or we positive, you know, healthy or unhealthy. It's just an emotion.
Speaker: It's what you do with it that counts as far as is this you know beneficial or toxic to the relationship. So research research shows us that jealousy is not... there's ah There's a big misunderstanding that jealousy is indicative of insecurity.
Speaker: ah It can be, like I said, one of the types of romantic jealousy can be insecurity. But jealousy... that the garden to so There's multiple studies. I can't remember exactly how many. There's multiple studies that show us that it's not the...
Speaker: structure of a relationship that warrants whether or not jealousy shows up. Jealousy shows up in open, closed, you know, short term, long term. It's not even about the security or insecurity. Jealousy still can show up in deeply secure relationships with deeply secure people in them.
Speaker: But what is different based on secure insecure um is how it's dealt with. So there's something I call the green eyed gaze. So we have an entire culture built around avoiding discomfort and jealousy is very uncomfortable. I would say if if there's probably one of the most, if not the most uncomfortable emotional experience, I would say absolutely jealousy is right up there. Right. so Powerless. Yeah. Right. you hundred and That's a really important quality. Right. We feel powerless. We feel disempowered in this experience. And and I'll get to why that's important.
Speaker: So if we have this thing that comes up, we're told somehow simultaneously it means there's something wrong with us or there's something wrong with the relationship, but also jealousy is somehow proof of love. So if you're not experiencing jealousy, you must not care that much.
Speaker: How can both of those things be the same? Well, neither of them is inherently true. Jealousy just happens It can happen in one relationship and not another. It can happen in one period of your life and not another period of your life. You could go like for me, I didn't experience jealousy until was well into my 30s.
Speaker: Right. they wow There are a number of factors, right, that can enable jealousy to show up. But that's why I say it's not indicative that something is necessarily wrong. It's just information. So the difference between how jealousy is dealt with in secure and insecure relationships is it's not avoided. So the green-eyed gaze I mentioned, when jealousy comes up, when we're not in practice of jealousy, when we're not expanding our capacity to hold discomfort, we generally do one of three things when jealousy comes up.
Speaker: We take the green-eyed gaze and we direct it inward. You know, there's something wrong with me. I can't believe I feel this way. I shouldn't feel this way. We're judging ourselves, right? We're shaming ourselves.
Speaker: We're turning the green-eyed gaze inward with shame. Or we turn the green-eyed gaze outward at our partner or whomever with blame. You're making me feel this way. It's your responsibility to make me feel differently. You have to do X, Y, z and i won't feel good unless you do that.
Speaker: It's all out there. I'm going to make you feel uncomfortable so that I don't have to feel uncomfortable now. Or the third option, I'm just going close my eyes completely. I don't get jealous.
Speaker: I don't feel jealousy. I'm a cool girl. Like, I don't have that. I'm not a jealous person, right? How i many times have you heard that? i'm not a jealous person. There's no such thing. You're a person capable of experiencing emotions, and one of them is jealousy. So when you avoid or you try to avoid, which quite frankly...
Speaker: any of the three gazes, some version of avoiding actually practicing jealousy. But if you're just pushing it down, pretending it's not there, trying to ignore it, I assure you that doesn't make it go away.
Speaker: It will come out and most likely in the least convenient and potentially most damaging way possible. So neither of those three things is actually working with jealousy and listening to it and trying to learn from it. was What is it telling you, right?
Speaker: So if we're not practicing something, we don't have the muscle memory, the skill set. So I told you I love a metaphor. Here's my metaphor for jealousy and why it's so valuable of the practice.
Speaker: Okay. So think about surfing. Say, you know, you've never, if you've never touched a board, but you know what it is. Like you've seen it on tv you've watched, you know, Point Break, whatever. Like you know what surfing is, but you've never done it. Well, now I'm going to take you, I'm going to put you on a board and I'm going to put you in that board on a 10 foot wave. Good luck.
Speaker: Pretty intense, right? Pretty intense experience. lot happening. 10-foot wave. Never been on a board. Oh, my God. How do I handle this? Well, now imagine if I take somebody who's been surfing professionally for 20 years. I'm going to put them on that same board.
Speaker: going to put them on that same wave. The wave is equally intense. It's all the same stimuli. Everything is still happening. But they've been practicing now. for 20 years. So they have skills. They know how to kind of stay a little loose, stay upright. They know how to duck in and out to make sure they don't eat it, right? Like they have a skill set. doesn't make it less intense, but they've been here before and they're actively engaging with that intense stimuli, right? So that's the difference between expanding your capacity for discomfort. It's not about making jealousy
Speaker: you know, pleasant or getting rid of it or anything like that. Jealousy is valuable. It's telling you information about yourself, your core values, maybe some needs that aren't being met. It's a rich source of information, not only for our personal growth, potentially our relational growth as well. So learning how to work with it is probably one of, if not the most impactful skills you can learn in life. because it's really about expanding your capacity to hold discomfort.
Speaker: Am I a partner that my partner can come to with a potentially uncomfortable conversation without losing my shit? Right. Am I a safe person for them to come to? Definitely not me. but but You can develop that. That's not jealousy is not a personality trait. That's why I said there's no such thing as a jealous person.
Speaker: Right. You can build these skills. You can become a more stable and secure partner who's able to receive unsettling information without it rocking your whole life. And I'll tell you, it'll impact your work.
Speaker: It'll impact your family life. It'll impact your finances. It'll impact your health and wellness. This is a major, major skill set that we're trying. We're just avoiding. And it's such a shame. So, I mean, are there a few things that people could do to better understand jealousy and how to utilize it for better relationships? Forgive me if you already explained that.
Speaker: But I don't know. No worries. I mean, I'm writing a book for a reason. Absolutely. I think most of the literature... It's about, you know, transforming jealousy, getting rid of jealousy. Because it and my book is called For the Love of Jealousy. and And like you said earlier, it's making the case that jealousy is the single most misunderstood and underused emotional experience to deepen trust and intimacy in relationships.
Speaker: And I say that because, like we talked about earlier, you don't get intimacy without vulnerability. Vulnerability is inherently uncomfortable.
Speaker: Vulnerability means you're risking something, right? It's scary. It it doesn't actually feel very good. The thing that feels good is when you do the thing and you come to the person that you've chosen to trust and they say, yeah, this is beautiful. Give me more.
Speaker: That's the act. Same thing with jealousy. You're saying, I'm feeling this terrible thing. It's so uncomfortable. I'm i I need this kind of support. Are you available for that? Do you still love me even though I'm feeling this horrible thing? And they go, yeah, it's okay.
Speaker: I'll sit here with you in it. That is how we build intimacy, not rules, not restricting behavior. We don't build trust. We don't build intimacy by limitation.
Speaker: We build it by burying ourselves. And and it's it is uncomfortable and it takes practice to sit with that discomfort. But that's how we build discernment. you know Do I trust that I have chosen someone who is deserving of my vulnerability, who can hold it?
Speaker: Do I know that my partner, know i've I've developed my own discernment enough to know that I choose to be with people who receive me fully, who aren't going to be judging me and attacking me, right? Just because we're having an uncomfortable conversation, right? They're well self-managed enough to sit in that with me. I know that i that I choose people like that. So I am willing to come into this and say, hey, this is what's happening for me. It's horribly uncomfortable.
Speaker: Are you cool to sit in it with me? That's intimacy. it That's what I mean. Yeah. yeah And I've never heard the term modern desire before.
Speaker: So ah how would you define modern desire and what are some universal core elements on of modern desire? I would like to end with this question.
Speaker: Beautiful question. So We are trying to fit modern lives into structures that were built for civilization that no longer exists.
Speaker: Absolutely. not So what's what's a quick and easy example? Women in the U.S. were not able to have their own credit cards, let alone open their own bank accounts until the 70s, 1973, I believe,
Speaker: when we got that right So that's a very different desire framework, right? When when you have limited capabilities, your desires can can only go so far. You might have desires that are bigger than it, but there may not be a potential for bringing those in to real life because you can't even go out and get it for yourself or whatever the thing is, right? This is just like one example.
Speaker: So we now are able, hooray, to have bank accounts and our own jobs and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I know this is a gendered example. I want to be really clear that like men's desires have also been able to shift and grow and expand.
Speaker: So if we have a new a new world, really, with new capabilities and capacities, our desires expand with that and our potential to to bring those desires into reality also expands. But if we're not adjusting the structures within which we relate to each other, it makes it really hard to explore those desires together.
Speaker: And it's fracturing relationships unnecessarily. So that's why I talk about a relationship more so than whatever structure it is, right? Can you have the con, are you open in your communication? Can you have the conversations?
Speaker: about your curiosities and your desires? Do you have the capacity to bring those desires into reality on your own with your partner, whatever that is? Our desires that exist now that are attainable now, you know, the attainability is different than it was in the past. Our accessibility to creating those desires is different than it was in the past.
Speaker: we We do have a lot of the same curiosities and interests and kinks, but we're also building new toys to explore them with. We're able to travel the world in a totally different way. So there may be the same root desires and curiosities, but they look can look very different now. Does that answer your question?
Speaker: And they're a lot more possible, too. like Exactly. my Accessibility. What? If you want a third person, you can get on field or you can build a new tool. Exactly. or Exactly. So it makes it very easy. And you can board a plane, too. Yeah.
Speaker: Which is why modern desire needs a a different playbook. You know, the the assumption of, for example, what cheating meant 100 years ago is very different than what it might mean now to different people. Right. We have ways of connecting with people. that literally didn't exist 50 years ago.
Speaker: So we have to adjust the language that we use and have the conversation so that we know we're on the same page as each other. Even 20 years ago. I mean, some people consider cheating if their partner likes a girl's photo.
Speaker: Right. so We have to have that conversation. What does cheating mean to you? What are your edges? Where can I meet you? Absolutely. Okay. Modern desire. That that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker: So this was an absolute pleasure and delight and extremely educational. You really blew my mind. I didn't go back to learn so much about this. And I love that you're out here really normalizing this for people who are struggling with the idea that this is normal.
Speaker: um Some of the things that you talk about and that some of your clients do, it's normal, may not be for them, but it's normal and there's nothing wrong with it. And there are huge upsides to it working for people. and just And there's more people interested in what you're curious about than you realize, whatever it is, I assure you.
Speaker: I can say this confidently, whatever you're curious about, there are more people also curious about that than you think. And it's good for them to be open about it instead of just seeking it elsewhere and doing destructive behaviors that could end the relationship.
Speaker: um So it's very thought provoking. Yeah. and And you may not have the tools to have the conversation and the current relationship you're in. That's why it it is such a honor to do the work that I do to create the container that people can have these conversations. And my whole mission is to help people build fulfilling, mutually fulfilling relationships that last a lifetime. And that is, again, that is a skill set.
Speaker: So it's something you can learn and get better at just because the relationship right now isn't supporting both of you in the ways that it could doesn't mean it never can. And Allie is out here living proof. she's She's not just talking the talk. She's walking it as well and about to be walking it in London.
Speaker: I guess you're ready for that cold, I assume. i mean their Their summers are no joke anymore, too. Last two summers have been record-breaking. So it's it's a global theme. That's ah another conversation for another day. But I'm looking forward to some new scenery, yes. is your Is your partner in London?
Speaker: Yeah, he's a first-generation British. Okay, so he's in London. so you're So that's good. You guys are going to be in the same place. but Looking very much looking forward to it. Oh, that's so exciting. Oh, my gosh. I heard it's the best there for Christmas. Oh, it's so cute. It's super cute. They get really into the decorations. The whole city is really gorgeous. Europe in general, like Germany, has that haven't explored the the Christmas markets and stuff there, but it's very cute, very quaint, and I love it. oh my goodness Well, congratulations. And when is your book coming out? You said? TBD. I'm in the very early stages. I'm writing right now, working with a wonderful agent.
Speaker: I already have some from pretty cool interest from a number of different publishers. So it's just finding the right home for it. But I've been I've been saying I'm neck deep. But I think at this point I'm nose deep in the research, which I'm enjoying very, very much.
Speaker: And just, yeah, my next next chapter of life, pun intended, is really just focusing on the book. Once I get to London, that's my full-time focus. So very excited for that. Awesome. So are you Allie Eisman on all platforms?
Speaker: And Instagram, that's my main page Allie Eisman there. But you can also find my company, Passport to Pleasure. That's where I host small curated groups for cultured and curious couples who are ready to have those conversations they can't have anywhere else. They'll be launching some trips for 2027. So you can go to passport2pleasure.com. It's the number two, passport2pleasure.com. And you can find Passport to Pleasure on Instagram, youtube sub stack tiktok uh i think that's everything but ali eisman on linkedin and ali eisman on instagram as well i really can't believe that's your real hair i saw i saw a video i saw one of your videos and i thought for sure that was not your hair and that today it looks so real i'm like this is shocking i got good genes yeah yeah do All right. Well, thank you so much, Ali. My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me today. It's a great conversation.
