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the mental game in physical activity with martin ebner
81 Plays3 years ago
Welcome to episode 053 of the Green & Healthy Places podcast, in which we explore the themes of sustainability and wellbeing in real estate and hospitality today.
This week i’m in my home town of Barcelona, Spain talking to health and fitness entrepreneur Martin Ebner.
Martin is the Founder of Ebylife Personal Training and Fitness Solutions that include diet plans, training programs and what is now a fairly dominant Google ranking in Barcelona’s fitness scene.
We discuss:
- what needs to happen to activate a fitness facility in an office or residential development in order to extract full value from it
- the importance of being in a state of receptivity to start and stick to a new fitness program
- intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation factors
- real estate developers building gyms vs occupant demand for physical activity
- automaticity and setting medium to long-term physical activity goals
- aiming for physical activity as an enjoyable experience
- solo physical activity vs accompanied or led physical activity
- sustainable physical activity in the medium-term
- psychographic profiles in physical activity
- group fitness as a motivator for physical activity?
- adjusting physical activity programs for fitness levels
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Martin Ebner and EbiLife
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to episode 53 of the Green and Healthy Places Podcast, in which we explore the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hospitality today. This week, I'm in my hometown of Barcelona, Spain, talking to health and fitness entrepreneur, Martin Ebner. Martin is the founder of EbiLife Personal Training and Fitness Solutions that includes diet plans, training programs, and what is now a fairly dominant Google ranking in Barcelona's fitness scene.
Integrating Fitness in Real Estate
00:00:39
Speaker
Our aim with this conversation was to bridge his world of fitness and personal training with my world of what I operate under by a filico but effectively a healthy building's strategy advisory. So we look at, for example, what needs to happen to activate a fitness facility in an office or residential development to extract true value from it.
00:00:59
Speaker
The importance of being in a state of receptivity to start and stick to a new fitness program, for example, as a building occupant, say an employee in a large office block. We look at how residential developers building gyms may not always align necessarily with occupant demand for physical activity taking place in those gyms. We look at how you can create an enjoyable experience for physical activity that might be solo accompanied or led by an expert such as Martin.
Importance of Motivation in Fitness
00:01:29
Speaker
We look at how you can create sustainable physical activity plans in the medium term and adjusting activity programs for fitness levels. There's a lot in here. We cover a wide range of topics, but it's a really insightful conversation from an emerging fitness guru who I have a lot of respect for. So here he is, Martin Edna. So I'd like to start with a question around something that I'm peripherally conscious of, but
00:01:59
Speaker
No doubt, to some extent, probably try to ignore, right? Which is, when we're creating healthy spaces for people to spend their days in, or perhaps live if it's a residential development, or to work in, so if it's an office development, sometimes it can be a bit too easy, even for me, to say, well look, we're gonna provide access to a facility for exercise, yoga, fitness, whatever it might be. Whether that's on-site or off-site.
00:02:28
Speaker
And then the job is done. That facility then may or may not get much use. And if it's not getting much use, in the end, it comes back to me because the client's like, okay, you recommended this. The gym's always empty. What
Sustaining Fitness Routines through Intrinsic Benefits
00:02:43
Speaker
do we do? Do we have programming? And I think where I wanted to go with you was that inner process around at an individual psychological level, why are people starting
00:02:55
Speaker
and sticking with a program that perhaps just access to a gym will never tap into. There has to be something else there, right? And you're working with individuals. So what are the broad themes that you see in terms of why people start a program and how you get them to continue? Sure. Well, yes, as you say, I don't think providing a space
00:03:24
Speaker
convince the majority of people to work out especially people that don't already work out. I have a lot of clients that work for big companies and they have access to facilities but for one reason or another they don't use them or don't take advantage of them and then they employ me outside of
00:03:58
Speaker
And I think it maybe comes from maybe a lack of education or the motivation isn't there for them to use the gym. I think they need to be in a state of readiness as well to begin a training program. And I think the majority of the time it comes from an extrinsic motivation, so
00:04:24
Speaker
maybe to get fit for summer, to get a six pack, to get a chiseled chest, whatever it is. And that would be enough to get them to start a program, but rarely enough to get them to continue. But then my job as a trainer is that once they've started is to get them to appreciate all of the intrinsic motivators of exercise. So,
00:04:52
Speaker
feeling more energetic or feeling great when you're working out or sleeping better. I think these tend to be the factors that help people get into an exercise routine and stick to it. So like I said, I don't think a space is enough.
Setting Realistic Fitness Goals
00:05:10
Speaker
I think maybe education and educating the people on some of the bigger benefits around exercise.
00:05:21
Speaker
So you've made the distinction there between the first step into the gym by which
00:05:29
Speaker
a trainer, by which stage something is gone. And that's typically coming from internal motivation, which suggests it doesn't matter how beautiful a fitness room, a meditation room, a yoga space, or my design for a building. It doesn't matter if that inner motivation isn't there, no matter how persuasive the employer or the real estate developer indirectly might be in terms of creating an opportunity for you to exercise or start an exercise regime.
00:05:58
Speaker
out if it's not enough. So if we dig into that, you then got certain key drivers around why someone comes through the door. And then beyond that, where you started to describe the benefits, that's perhaps more the language that we're talking when we look at workplace wellness and we're trying to encourage people to start exercising. Better sleep, for example, you sleep better, you rest, you recover, you sleep
00:06:25
Speaker
you come back stronger the next day, you're more productive, you have more energy. So there's, I think, a piece of education and communication around there. But what about from that first step, is there then an interim phase where you're trying to get them over the hump from coming through the door to the
Developing Sustainable Exercise Habits
00:06:45
Speaker
stickiness? Like before we get to the sticky bit and people are hooked, what happens in between? Because I imagine quite a few might also drop off
00:06:53
Speaker
Yes. So I think people very often come to me with unrealistic fitness goals. So the industry in general sort of promises significant results physically or aesthetically in a very short space of times. It's always to not get six pack abs in six weeks.
00:07:22
Speaker
And we're quite lazy in general, and I think we want to get maximum results with the minimum amount of effort. So it's really my job to set realistic expectations. Yes, it's very nice to train for aesthetic reasons, but it's quite important for me as well to dig into the reasoning behind why there's
00:07:58
Speaker
I think a lot of people believe that if they look better, they're going to feel better. If they get to a certain weight, their life will automatically feel better. But from my experience, that's very often the opposite of what happens. So my goal as a trainer is to try and set realistic expectations and encourage consistency.
00:08:26
Speaker
things are a little bit more extreme and obviously over my my life and my experience as a trainer that has changed also. I used to quite enjoy training for aesthetics for example but it's it's not necessarily something that is going to allow you to get into a routine and stick to it because a lot of the time you're expecting
00:09:00
Speaker
in the title that perhaps you've given yourself. I don't know if that answers your question. It does, but what I'm seeing is effectively two very different reasons for doing exercise. From the perspective of the employer or the workplace itself, or even indirectly a real estate developer building, a residential building, for example. Okay, should we put it in the gym?
00:09:24
Speaker
It's complete disconnect really in terms of what the actual drivers are for most people, which are understandably more inner oriented to do with their aesthetics, their sense of self-worth, and their confidence, self-confidence in social environments. I think that could partly explain the challenge of getting to stickiness, which is, okay, we're getting to a healthier population, but specifically we're getting to a healthier workplace,
00:09:58
Speaker
sick days who are not suffering from endless back pain because they're just generally in better shape. So there's that individual versus the individual driver versus actually what's going on within the organization in terms of what their expectations are. So that piece around guidance and programming, how big a role is that in terms of
00:10:23
Speaker
getting too sticky in terms of getting to some point of automaticity. So around where it becomes almost self-reinforcing, where it no longer needs to be pushed by some external factor. It's just something that someone enjoys, right? Like, is that years of work? Is that, is it, if you've got a good program, is that it? Is it a guaranteed success?
00:10:55
Speaker
I don't know at what point in my life exercise became so essential to my well-being and I don't necessarily know how it happened but I think again being realistic
00:11:24
Speaker
to fitness are the people that are able to do it consistently. And they have the right, in my opinion, reasons to exercise. So the clients that I have that tend to have the most success are
00:11:53
Speaker
A lot of people just assume that after the 12 weeks, that's it. They don't continue or they take the room of going so extreme for the 12 weeks.
Group Fitness vs. Personal Training
00:12:02
Speaker
They achieve enough and then after the 12 weeks, they stop in Thailand and that's it. Okay. So yes, I think it's the people that come to me and they just want to feel good and they enjoy the workout and I don't necessarily
00:12:29
Speaker
to feel good. Then you're talking effectively about the hormone release. Now isn't that universal? So if the workout, I mean a lot of people talk about that rush after a HIIT workout for example, because you just get this hit of endorphins and it does, you know, it can last for a good half a day where you're just feeling especially high intensity or power type workouts, you can have this after a glow.
00:12:53
Speaker
And that can have wonderful effects, for example, productivity at work. If I do a particular type of session in the morning, I feel great all the way through to lunchtime. You may or may not crash after that if you don't get it right. But is that not universal? Do you see that are there just some people who are more in tune with that than others? Or is it all there if people are open to
00:13:24
Speaker
I think you're assuming that exercise feels good at the time and for a lot of people it really doesn't. So for you and I, it probably does. We've learned to appreciate pain and appreciate discomfort. Yes, discomfort, accepting discomfort, thriving on it, enjoying it. But for a lot of people that aren't necessarily fit,
00:13:54
Speaker
So again, I think my job, if I get a new client, is to create a collection of enjoyable experiences for them so that they keep coming back. So I see this at gyms all the time. It's something that really frustrates me. So I'll see these trainers and they'll push their client to the point of, you know, dizziness, feeling faint, wanting to vomit. And if that is your friend,
00:14:31
Speaker
So what do you hate about it? I just don't like how it feels. In my view it's always that they've done something that's disliked or pushed too hard initially. I think it takes a bit of time to build up and you get used to that pain and that
00:14:56
Speaker
I don't think it exercise unless you do it right, which is always why I aim to achieve with new clients. It doesn't necessarily always feel great. So I think instinctually you're not going to keep returning to something that is hard and that is a challenge and that doesn't necessarily feel good initially. That's where the difference between working with a PT, working with a trainer on a one-to-one basis and
00:15:28
Speaker
to go to the gym with or without some knowledge. That's the key difference I think is that you can you see that perhaps someone has an issue with a squat they just don't have the mobility to squat and doesn't feel good so they stay away from it and the squat never gets gets attempted again and you can easily avoid it if you're training by yourself or if you're in a group class that repeatedly asks you to do a particular movement maybe you just don't go back right.
00:15:54
Speaker
Whereas when you're working with a PT and you and I have trained, there's no way to hide. And when you come up against a block, a blockage, you find a workaround and you make a note mentally, right? There's an issue there with hip or ankle mobility. Let's come back to that. We'll work on that.
Non-Physical Benefits of Exercise
00:16:11
Speaker
I'm going to push you on the timeline because I think what you're talking about is it feels to me like there's a medium term, if I can call it that.
00:16:19
Speaker
timeline, call to the hump, somewhere around it's got to be what, three, four, five months in terms of getting someone into the groove. Absolutely. I think depending on your experience, your fitness level, age, etc, you tend to achieve or be able to achieve a lot initially when you start training. So if you don't know what you're doing, you might not be able to achieve
00:17:00
Speaker
people is very motivational but that also creates a problem because it's
00:17:39
Speaker
to sort of these motivators start to kick in and you can begin to establish a much longer sort of habit as opposed to starting and stopping. I'm interested to know if
00:17:59
Speaker
your experience working one to one with clients, if you've identified certain personality types, because I think we touched on it a few minutes ago, the idea of, you know, almost seeking out diversity. And there's a certain personality type, it's not masochistic, but to some extent, we're heading deliberately towards the pain. Like we're seeking it out. I don't know.
00:18:25
Speaker
a 50k trail run on a Sunday morning. No one's asking me to do it. I go do it because I kind of like the suck. I kind of enjoy it on some weird level. I know it's going to be awkward and I've probably come home in all sorts of trouble, but I do it. There's something in there. I'm no alpha male, but there must be certain personality types that you've seen whereby you're able to find that button and make it switch. And then I'm guessing there are others that are perhaps
00:18:54
Speaker
more challenging in terms of finding a way to connect. How do you adapt? How do you get into that? Because you're able to work one-to-one with clients, but what's that process in terms of trying to find their levers, their buttons to switch? Sure. I think I'm in a very fortunate position where I can now choose the sort of client I take on.
00:19:20
Speaker
most recently the sort of clients I take on aren't necessarily into extremes perhaps like yourself and personally I'm not really into extremes either I'm much more about consistency and finding balance and that's changing obviously as I age but like I say the most important thing for me is to establish
00:19:52
Speaker
and then to create a collection of positive experiences so that they can continue and want to continue to train forever. So I don't necessarily get the sort of clients that are wanting to run 100 miles. I don't know if these people tend to seek the help
00:20:14
Speaker
personal trainers, I think you don't necessarily get somebody that would approach me that's never exercised before and says, I want to run 50 miles. And if they didn't, then I would probably say, let's start with five. And then once you get to five, you feel good with five miles, you can go for 10 and build up that way. So I think less about extreme goals and more about moderation, and then you can expand upon that.
00:20:45
Speaker
as your confidence and your experience grows. It makes sense. I think there's also something cumulative about it. I certainly found over 25 odd years of training that, yeah, you do start to look for, to some extent, the occasional peak, the occasional extreme and challenges. And I think that's why you get so many middle-aged men doing triathlons and Ironman. Yeah, we're kind of hunting, you know, we were looking for a next
00:21:16
Speaker
and trying other sports. But I can totally see the bulk of the market for you. And in fact, I think specifically when you're looking at, say, trying to create a healthy workplace and a workforce, the majority of people need what you've just described, which is, look, let's just keep it simple and get you from point A to point C passing through point B, which is some element of stickiness kicking in. So when you look at measurable results,
00:21:43
Speaker
their universal data points for that or is that also specific according to the type of person and the reasons they came to you originally? Yes, I think it depends on the client
00:22:17
Speaker
or body fat percentages, things like that. I think that that is quite an unhealthy view. So I have a client, I will name him who is quite obsessed with weight and body fat percentages. And once I get to this body fat percentage, and you know, I'm always challenging him to give me a good reason as to why when he gets to
00:22:47
Speaker
any better. So for me, I tend to focus a little bit more on quality over quantity. So a measurable result for me might be technique. So as you know, you've trained with me once. For me, I give quite a lot of importance to the technique.
00:23:15
Speaker
So it might be a client, when I first get them, can't do a squat and then after six weeks they can do a squat perfectly and that for me would be a great result. And then from there you can obviously begin to build up on the repetitions, build up the volume, build up the weight, etc. But each person is a bit different and I think a lot of my clients, again, they don't need to necessarily know
00:23:46
Speaker
and I don't necessarily need to see the specifics either it's more the progression that I see in their ability to perform and also how they feel I get a lot of or it pleases me when a client comes into the supermarket
00:24:16
Speaker
You know, these benefits you don't necessarily notice, but then you look back and you're like, wow, I've slept eight hours every night for the last week. I haven't done that forever.
Engagement with Different Demographic Groups
00:24:25
Speaker
And these are a lot of the things I aim for now with my clients. I was going to say also that a lot of the clients I get now are maybe middle aged and they've spent most of their lives making poor lifestyle choices.
00:24:45
Speaker
and something may have happened to them and they've realised that they're not 18 anymore, they can't eat the way they do or maybe they've had a health scare and that is enough for them to start an exercise programme and worry more about their health. So I wasn't sure where I was going to go with that. Couldn't I quite nicely with the idea of demographic groups?
00:25:15
Speaker
connecting with certain types of fitness experience. I know it's not your bag but clearly the group fitness revolution and boutique fitness studios over the last 10-15 years in most European and US capitals primarily has just been game-changing in terms of encouragement, in terms of motivation, in terms of getting people to do things that they perhaps would never have tried to do. I mean from CrossFit or
00:25:44
Speaker
There's just more out there in terms of group class and motivation. But clearly, I think what I'm getting from you is that that may not work for people at a certain life phase who've been through certain things previously.
Workplace Wellness Programs
00:25:57
Speaker
And they're kind of having now to pay the debt on those cumulative results. And something does change at a certain age. And also around simply how one lives one's life.
00:26:10
Speaker
and the responsibilities we all have and so on. It's just not necessarily convenient to work around a class timetable. I think that's also where the PT really comes into its own around.
00:26:20
Speaker
it being a little bit more tailored towards that person's individual requirements. And that might also then align with a demographic, not say can't work for, I don't know, say like a 25 year old graduate just out of university, but it's much more likely that person, you know, has a spin studio membership or does yoga in group classes, right? Surely that divide. Absolutely. I think it depends
00:26:49
Speaker
I don't really enjoy training in a group. I've done it. I did a little bit of CrossFit and it pissed me off. People shouting at me to do more. I think again, CrossFit isn't going to be a great example because I think a lot of these classes are very extreme. So it's getting more bang for your buck in less time and you go in and CrossFit is an interesting example.
00:27:25
Speaker
hard crossfitters but I think for a beginner to go into a crossfit class and you know unless they're physically prepared enough to do it it can be quite dangerous and I think that can be the case with quite a lot of group classes as well
00:27:51
Speaker
And yes, I mean, I suppose I believe in quite a tailored approach to fitness. I think everybody is quite different. I think there's a lot of great things that come from training as part of a group, its community, its motivation. These things are all great, but I think it's unlikely that you
00:28:22
Speaker
Again, if I was to go to a group class, I'm obviously, if I have the education and the experience to know that if there was an exercise in there that wasn't suitable for my back, because I've gone, some compression in my spine, I could work around it, but somebody that didn't know, wouldn't know, and would do the exercise anyway, and that could potentially be a little bit risky for them. But I appreciate the value in both, and I've seen them
00:28:55
Speaker
and think is motivational for everybody. I think the output that I'm getting from our conversation is when looking at a workplace wellness program that is really comprehensive and that offers a 360 approach from nutrition to hydration through to exercise and even what we call active design in the workplace things like where we're standing out at a standing desk
00:29:23
Speaker
using the stairs instead of using the lift, etc. There are things we can do to encourage people to be a bit more active when they're at work.
Trends in Corporate Fitness
00:29:31
Speaker
And I think a one-size-fits-all approach to that fitness component, and increasingly the fitness component is on the table. It wasn't previously around a workplace, but I think it is there now. It can be all too easy just to say, all right, we'll have a yoga class and we'll have a HIIT class.
00:29:49
Speaker
of TRX and body weight training, which is cool. There's less likelihood of any injuries, but that's often as far as it goes. I think where I'm interested in is a more variegated approach that allows for different needs and requirements according to people's life phase and also where they're at, their relationship with exercise. I think just putting in the yoga class and the HIIT, I just don't think it's good enough, I think.
00:30:18
Speaker
Perhaps it's whether small group training, and we can touch on that, or having access to a PT just feels now based on what we've been discussing, a much more rounded and complete offer. And then I guess people make their own choice. If they do the group fitness thing, then they go to the HIIT class on a Monday morning. And if not, they call a PT and work on a one-to-one, right? So I think that would be perhaps an ideal approach. I asked about small group training.
00:30:48
Speaker
How do you see that in terms of the benefits of working on a one-to-one, and how much do you lose if you're training, say, three people at the same time? Do you think it can get close to that experience?
00:31:19
Speaker
that is the sort of the least amount of experience is going to feel intimidated by so it needs to be balanced I do small group classes that people tend to be friends first so it's not public groups I don't just invite anybody in they tend to come to me then we establish their goals and there are ways that you can do it so there's ways that you can train where
00:31:53
Speaker
30 seconds as opposed to 10 repetitions and that person is going to do as much or as little as they like within that time for example. I think cost is quite important so you talk about these businesses and I'm interested to know as well why are they doing it? Are they, you know, do these big businesses
00:32:22
Speaker
So the cynical answer would be that a lot of them are signing up for, let's say, certification systems, for example, the Well-Healthy Building Standard, that pretty much requires that there is a component of, just like there's a nutrition chapter and a hydration chapter, there's also a fitness or movement chapter in particular, and then businesses are effectively encouraged to have provision for equipment
00:32:50
Speaker
or fitness training spaces and programming and i think that the level of detail around programming is effectively what we've been talking about for the last twenty five minutes and that is the key piece around how you actually get to work so it's beyond just.
00:33:08
Speaker
putting it out there and actually well how can you activate that space or how can you fill the classes and if it's not often they often might not be complete enough I think there's that extra layer of detail around a hybrid model between having or at least trying to offer some group class options but also having access to a PT just like nowadays having access to a recommended mental health practitioner or therapist outside of the organization
00:33:42
Speaker
sort of an established relationship. I think having something along those same lines with a PT, certainly for a lot of businesses, would make sense. Now, there's another layer to it, which is where the intrinsic benefits, as you've been describing them, start to kick in and effectively help the employer as well, right? Because you've got more to give, you're more energized. It's the sort of
00:34:11
Speaker
once you get into the training. If it works, okay, I crash in the emails. But during the day, I'm on fire and I'm good. It's only I get my caffeine intake, right? But that's the thing. And so, yes, there are collateral benefits for that workplace owner, the employer.
00:34:35
Speaker
around reducing sick days, around happier, healthier and more productive primarily workforce.
Overcoming Gym Intimidation
00:34:42
Speaker
And I think so to some extent they're doing it because they generally want happy staff and it helps attract and retain talent and there is to a greater or lesser extent according to where you are if you're in San Francisco, LA or London.
00:34:59
Speaker
Everyone's doing it. If you're not doing it, where's the person going to go? Somewhere where they have a gym and a whole fitness set up and massages on a Friday afternoon for those who need it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, or the one that doesn't. And so there's almost a one upmanship going on. It's a ratchet effect and the markets moving up, the markets adapting and adopting more and more of these measures. And certainly for the big guys like investment banks, the big tech companies, if you're not playing that game,
00:35:28
Speaker
your competitor is and they win the talent war and it's a little cynical to describe it that way but it's happening and the net results are that fitness and health are just becoming a much bigger piece obviously it's not the main driver for why someone decides to go work for Goldman versus another bank but it's definitely out there absolutely it's an interesting point I wonder if it's
00:35:58
Speaker
know for somebody that doesn't exercise well that's a draw for them. I wonder if that's a fact or if they're choosing between you know two big companies or whether it's a deterrent for somebody that's unfit. Something I was going to say that I think confidence comes into it as well so it can be very intimidating to go to a gym or to
00:36:25
Speaker
And I think I get a lot of these clients that have quite a few clients that work for Google, for example. And I always wonder why they've come to me instead of using the facilities that they have. And I think that one of the reasons is a lack of confidence. It's intimidating maybe to work out in front of their
00:36:55
Speaker
I think there's a lot of different factors. In the case of Google, I know that they don't have personal trainers. I think that they have access to a gym, but there's no guidance. We've spoken about it many times. I think one of the issues with gyms is that you go and you have no idea what
00:37:24
Speaker
you look at the machines and you don't know what they do and you're intimidated, so you skip them all together and then you leave and you never go back. So, you know, this is going back a little bit, but I think it's very important to have a member of staff in these areas to help. Otherwise you get people turning up, having no idea how to use anything at all. And that can be very, that can be a deterrent for them.
Concluding Remarks
00:37:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think if I put myself in the shoes of the brand on the other side of the employer, I think I look at that. I start weighing up the pros and cons of that operational cost, that overhead that is implicit in what you just described. And as Matt, I then come in and say, well, look, let's look at virtual trainer options. Let's look at subscriptions that can be available to facilitate those workouts.
00:38:19
Speaker
but effectively automated and streaming services so that there's a hybrid, so that there's something for someone to follow. You have a techno gym classes, or the peloton fitness classes. If you have a peloton bike in the gym or you have a techno gym bit of kit for 100 euros a year, you also have a screen that can fold out away from the bike or from the main bit of kit and becomes effectively a virtual trainer.
00:38:44
Speaker
And it's something to follow. It's not ideal, but it fills that gap. And I think, again, it's something that we need to be conscious of because, yeah, all too often there is the risk of someone who's not, to use your term, hasn't got the education behind them around what to do, how to do it, how often walk into a gym.
00:39:03
Speaker
happy moment, you finally made it in there, look around, you feel awkward, you don't necessarily like what you see in the mirror, or you don't wanna be next to your boss on the spin bike, or someone you've had a row with earlier on over a work-related issue, and yeah, it's complex. It's complex, and I think, but those subtleties, that level of detail is where it needs to get to beyond just, boom, box-ticking exercises of, well, we've done the gym, and we've put in the yoga class, and off we go.
00:39:33
Speaker
I think that's my big takeaway from this conversation, that a little bit of extra thinking in terms of how that's structured and presented can go a long way. Absolutely. Thanks for your time, man. It's been really great. My pleasure. Thanks so much, man.