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Voluntary Extinction with Annie Raser-Rowland
1.3k Plays4 months ago
Would you pick up a schoolkid’s half eaten apple and eat it?
Annie Raser-Rowland would, while shining a lopsided smile to passersby.
Annie is the radical wordsmith behind the bestselling The Art Of Frugal Hedonism and The Weed Forager’s Handbook, co-authored with the equally-and-proudly-as-stingy Adam Grubb.
This is one helluva conversation that covers:
🌟Why to be even weirder
🌟Rubbing frugality pheromones on your significant other
🌟Starting work at 3am
🌟Engaging teenage goth mode to deal with chronic health challenges
🌟Embracing voluntary extinction
🌟Leaving room for the more-than-human
🌟The plight of a brushtail possum in our wall.
Lap it up!
🧙♀️LINKY POOS
The Art of Frugal Hedonism (revised edition!)
Permaculture Principles ~ who sell ethically published books and have a wealth of free educational materials.
*** Support the show on Patreon***
(I’m loving this 🌟emoji which makes me feel like I’m doing a great job. You’re doing a great job too 🌟🌟🌟)
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Resilience' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
race scallia Hey, this is Katie and you're tuned in to Rescilience, a podcast about the hard, soft and surprising skills that'll help us stay afloat if our modern systems don't. I'm gratefully recording in Jara country, central Victoria. the unceded lands of the Jaja Wurrung people. Where the days are short the frost is thick and you can still catch a whiff of the winter solstice bonfires. One morning last week it was minus five degrees or minus five digits if you, like me, were walking at dawn without gloves. With temperatures this low it's no wonder nature wants to come inside. We heard it first
00:00:50
Speaker
a thumping and clawing and gallumping in the roof at midnight. Then a few days later, we saw it. While I was pottering in the garden near a north-facing wall of the house, I noticed a wisp of silvery fur protruding from a gap between the weatherboards, a sliver of a bigger organism slumbering in the wall cavity. Now that I'm telling you this story, I'm feeling a pang of remorse because the truth is, when I saw that fuzzy little weatherboard mohawk, I just couldn't help myself. I walked over, raised my right pointer finger, and poked it. Judging by the blood-curdling hiss, I'd pissed off a brush-tail possum. If you follow me on social media, you'll have noticed an uptick in marsupial content, with daily pilgrimages to the possum-poking portal.
00:01:41
Speaker
The other day I shared an Instagram poll asking people for their input. Should I keep poking the possum? Should I leave the possum in peace? Should I read the possum poetry? Or should I invite the possum onto the podcast? There was an overwhelming vote for the latter, so today I held up my recording device and asked the possum for comment.
Ecological Observations: Brushtail Possums and Human Encroachment
00:02:07
Speaker
Brushtail possums are creatures of place, with a deep connection to their turf that they demarcate with stinky secretions from their chin, chest and tail. You can't just pick up a possum and plunk it in the bush, because it'll most likely starve or be killed by another territorial possum. Possums have been around for millions of years longer than you were I, and the tree hollows they nest in can take over 100 years to form, and our settler folk haven't been very good about protecting those ancient arboreal apartments. So even though our furry flatmate is probably filling the wall cavity with excrement and structural sawdust, I can't help but respect their right to be here.
00:02:49
Speaker
Pos is my daily reminder that Earth is a share house. Humans are just one of trillions of residents who all have needs and goals and families and the irrepressible desire to thrive. However, we've been acting like a tyrannical landlord who also lives in their rental and thinks that they're above cleaning the toilet. And this exceptionalism runs so deep that the vast majority of our modern decisions are based around what's best for humans, how can humans get more, where does the human want to build their next house. And if there is consideration given to another being, there's usually an economic motivation, and by that logic we should probably be charging people to come and poke the possum.
00:03:33
Speaker
When Annie Razor Rowland, who is today's guest, expressed her grief over how we treat the modern human world, how we continuously encroach on the territories and resources and wellbeing of everything that isn't us, I was deeply moved.
Annie Razor Rowland on Frugal Living and Nature
00:03:48
Speaker
Annie, as you may know, is the co-author of The Weed, Forage's Handbook, and the art of frugal hedonism alongside Adam Grubb. She keeps a pretty low profile, preferring phone calls to emails, books to blog posts, and smiling at people on the street as she crunches into a half-eaten apple that she found on the ground over Instagram selfies.
00:04:10
Speaker
and that's why I absolutely adore her. Annie role models a kind of irreverent and sensual approach to frugal living that makes the work of de-growth feel more like play. Until this interview I hadn't heard Annie speak about her wild love of nature and the voluntary extinction movement. I hadn't heard her share about her health challenges, her man, or her sad cello music. I hadn't heard someone describe the ecstasy of being caught in the rain while moving mulch quite like this before.
00:04:42
Speaker
If you're hungry for more of Annie's backstory, listen to the future-setting interview we did a few years ago that is a beautiful companion to this conversation. I've leaked it in the show notes. And just so you know, a revised edition of the art of frugal hedonism has just been released, which is where you'll drop into this interview as Annie describes exactly what that means. If you, like me, keep giving away your copies of the art of frugal hedonism because it's the ultimate gateway drug into permaculture, you might like to treat yourself to a shiny new copy from our mates at Meliodora Publishing and Permaculture Principles, who are disrupting books as usual, reducing printing waste, shipping miles, distribution monopolies and profit margins, while paying authors fairly for their work.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yes, the publishing industry has major issues, just like the food system. And yes, there's a permy alternative. Okay, I'm off to read The Possum in the Wall, a Mary Oliver poem, and we'll meet you on the other side of this electrifying chat with Annie Razor Rowland.
00:05:47
Speaker
I'm actually really interested to know maybe as like something that holds the broader conversation like what has changed with the details of the book but also maybe what has evolved in the art of frugal hedonism as a way of living if that ties in. sure um A revised edition is just ah you've done ah another round of edits to make the language as tight and fun and easy to read as possible and avoid any confusing confusing phrasings with sentences and um updating all the research and you know updated all the resources, the further resources, the links and so on and gone. ah There's a few references throughout the book that are no longer appropriate because no one's really using Airbnb in that
00:06:31
Speaker
really cheap just renting out their bedroom way that they used to as much. So just, you know, cultural changes that need, mean that references need removing and replacing or just cutting out. But there's also been a few kind of um sensitivity issues that have been brought to our mind by various readers over time, mostly in a very, very wonderful fashion. um I ah love your book to bits but I was devastated to find the use of lame to mean something that was
00:07:07
Speaker
um not good or pitiable. And I had never even thought of that, of course, but this was someone who's been missing a leg their whole life and finds the word lame used in that metaphorical fashion to be really offensive. So finding substitute word for a few words like that that have been brought to our attention. um There was also in the first edition, it was almost a bit intentional to play on people's obsession with being thin to say, oh, you know, this is a lifestyle that will keep you fit and fitting into your pants from when you were 18.
00:07:48
Speaker
um Because it's sort of, our attitude was a bit, well, we're going to beat the mainstream guys at their own game of saying, things you can get there this way, but we want to say you can get there. by this much more holistic way that just kind of comes naturally out of your lifestyle um but we've had negative feedback from readers saying like they just don't like that language that that says that implies an inherent good in becoming thin and I totally get that so we've sort of chopped that kind of stuff out and replaced it with other stuff so yeah that's that's what a revised edition is
00:08:26
Speaker
Adam's been going down the wormholes as he does. He's our research guy. That's his his biggest role. um In just, you know, can we still say that 42% of food grown in the US is wasted at the grower's point, consumer point, household point, et cetera, you know, up to making sure all those figures are still relevant and as close to accurate for now as we can possibly have. Hmm, yeah, thanks for providing an example because I suppose when you say that there's a body of research that supports the art of frugal hedonism, I immediately think, well, it's so much more than just your opinion on a lifestyle or a nice and fun way to live, even though your proposition is so joyful and it is about
00:09:20
Speaker
having fun, and then there are all these secondary benefits. And I suppose my question is, how much of your life and life way is informed by that, the cold hard facts of our current climactic and civilizational situation? Or is it about the fact that it is really wonderful and delightful and satisfying on a soul level to live in this way. I'm sure it's a combination of both, but where do you sit when it comes to like the shoulds behind yourre your work in that book?
Embracing Minimalism and Environmental Consciousness
00:09:57
Speaker
The joyful came first. i you know I had a strong environmental consciousness as a little kid.
00:10:05
Speaker
because it was really well taught in my primary school. And I was one of those kids who was there the whole time going, mom, you can't put that bus ticket that's, you know, two centimeters square when there was paper bus tickets in the bin. It has to go in the recycling bin and would tell her off furiously um at the age of six or seven. But as I became a teenager and early twenties and so on, that disappeared from my consciousness a lot. And it was very much about, well, There's something just aesthetically neat to me about not buying very much. It feels too mushy and kind of soft and full of all this detritus and mess and I wanted things to be clean and sparkling and kind of wiry and minimal in a
00:10:58
Speaker
that was that was part of my aesthetic through that those times. And so I wanted to hitchhike and have just a really small backpack with almost nothing in it. And I wanted to have a room that was just one mattress on the floor and one old cupboard brought from the up shop and my three favorite books on that and a candlestick. And so it always was very aesthetically driven to me. And when I say aesthetic, I don't mean just the visual aspect. I mean, it's sort of like, full picture aesthetic of that I liked things that weren't about just grabbing more and more from every direction. I liked the the concentration, the concentratedness of really appreciating
00:11:47
Speaker
one thing or a handful of things and so that if you were hitchhiking you'd have those four objects in your backpack and each of them would be so essential and so precious to you that they were almost like people in their own right and I've never really kind of lost that attitude and it's It's, you know, it's got its downside too, is because I don't like it when there's too much junk around that's not getting used or appreciated or, and I find that upsetting. But then, you know, as I got a bit older and became aware of the rather dire situation in which our cultural habits have driven, into which our cultural habits have driven the world, it has become,
00:12:33
Speaker
twinned with a should, it's sort of but it's a happy a happy accident of a should. It was sort of like, oh, all these things that I really like to do fit really well with producing so little waste and consuming so little. And I guess because the impetus behind the book was very much not to write an environmental should book, it was very much a um
00:13:03
Speaker
Look, we all know about the environmental shoulds, but that doesn't always interact best with our squishy, needy brains and hearts that find life really quite hard and feel like just one more should is almost unbearable. um
00:13:21
Speaker
We wanted to write a a this is the good stuff book. And because those aesthetics had also led to me finding it really easy to not spend money and to save money, that that seemed like a strong angle to push because it's just true. like It actually functions. um I have ah my current partner who I've been with for about 10 years now, um post Adam, who I co-authored the book with. um When I met him, he
00:13:58
Speaker
had fairly mainstream consumer habits, for the most part, I'd say. um And it has been really interesting. ah I only just realized recently, but I can always treat him as my little sample size one test case for can you convert someone to frugal hedonism. and make them save lots of money. But it has really worked because he didn't used to have savings when I met him. um I mean, he wasn't one of those total spend-through people that lived paycheck to paycheck, but he didn't have substantial savings. But as we've rubbed off on each other and he's sort of gone,
00:14:39
Speaker
oh well I will just cook more of my own food and at that point he got rid of his car he sent that to again another one for work but um sort of changed how he went about entertaining himself and keeping himself feeling happy and fulfilled and joined me in being a big hiker and in having that kind of be the type of holiday that he always took um And yes, he'd always kind of like getting secondhand stuff, but it wasn't his automatic go-to when he bought stuff. And all of that has just gradually shifted over the decade that we've been together, or shifted fairly quickly, to be honest.
00:15:19
Speaker
And he now saves money effortlessly like me, like it just sort of piles up for him. um And that's just working four days a week and in a very blue collar job. So it's sort of nice to have that affirmed that you can take it done with regular consumption habits and just by having them mimic a few of the habits that I had that he has found incredibly fulfilling. And they've also made him a lot healthier. no argument about that. Because he had a much worse diet before and much less physical habits in not riding everywhere he went and so on. So he's at my little guinea pig. Yeah, if he's a guinea pig, then you're the cat rubbing your frugal pheromones on his little guinea pig body. Loving that in the tree. I'm wearing and we're all good with it, yep.
00:16:16
Speaker
And I wonder, Annie, in the beautiful way that you do communicate these subjects with such a cleverness in it and wit, and I know that you are a wordsmith of the highest order, how do you feel about this whole frugal hedonism goodness being now so relevant with the cost of living crisis, but also like with that sensitivity because people are really hurting and how do you see that like
Frugal Hedonism in Modern Times
00:16:42
Speaker
communicated? I mean, I would never want that pairing of words to become something where the hedonism bit gets forgotten. And it's just seen as a straightforward means to an end because that really does defy the point. And I think that is a modus operandi that you're seeing really become more and more prevalent in all sorts of facets of life at the moment. I hear, you know, I eavesdrop on people saying strange things like they'll be watching a sunset
00:17:13
Speaker
And I heard someone say the other day watching a spectacular sunset to the person they were with, oh, and it's so good for you having moments of ecstatic connection with nature like this. It's really anti-inflammatory. And I just went, oh, God. And I've heard people, I'd mentioned that I was going to start volunteering to an animal shelter to someone the other day. um And they said, oh, so good for your immune system, that, that sense of connection and being of service to the community. And I really think, and I understand why this has become how we're talking because it's partly, it's an economic model and that's how our brains are really trained to think is like.
00:17:56
Speaker
everything is done for the sake of a reward. um But it's pretty dysfunctional and I would i would hate, it it kind of reminds me of sort of Woody Allen's sci-fi's. Is it a society where that's how everything is thought of? you know And you should have sex because it's really good for lowering your cortisol levels, et cetera, et cetera. And so, yeah, I would hate frugal hedonism to become something that people felt like, well, this is my functional solution to cost of living crisis pinch. um But essentially, I think it's just, oh, here's another tool for people to not feel like spending less is inherently a bad and painful and destructive thing, which lots of people do seem to feel like it's
00:18:45
Speaker
It's almost a moral bad to, to not have as much money as you would like to spend on the things that you would like to spend them on. And that's a very obviously capitalism encourage perspective because it really works well for corporations. um But I mean, I do see the cost of living crisis as an invitation to go, yeah, well, this sucks, but it does invite us to reinvent some of those skills of working out other ways to get the things that we want to get and the happiness that we desire as human beings um from non-monetized sources. And there's always, you know, even just with the pandemic,
00:19:31
Speaker
we all know that there's always opportunities within every cost. And this is no different. Does that answer your question? Yeah, yeah, really beautifully. And I can't decide whether to ask you, how does it feel to sell books when you're someone who doesn't buy books? And then I have another question. Yeah, how do you make peace with that? Yeah. Look, I'm not against people buying books. It's just I've moved around a lot in my life. And so it just became at some point for me one of those things that I don't buy. I mean, I have five favourite childhood books and that's about it. I love houses that are full of books. I think out of all the things you can buy, books are some of the best things and I especially love it when it's done the way I know a few people do it, where they treat their bookshelf as a library and they actually have
00:20:26
Speaker
like a ah little book or something of who's loaned which book out and the date and so that they don't go, oh, where's my copy of that gone? I think that's super functional. But yeah, no, I have nothing against buying books inherently. Obviously, as with everything else, In the book, my whole perspective would be only buy a book if you know you're going to read it and you really want it and you feel like it's really valuable to you. I know some people will go buy books just because they feel like it's, I'd like to get around to reading this sometime.
00:21:04
Speaker
can can't really be down with that because that's just another form of this purchase reflects concepts of myself would like to be that I would like to be true and that possibly aren't true. And that's a dysfunctional relationship with consuming. Well, I want to if yeah if we could pause there because I have a ah question that's surfacing around that, which is the little twinge that I felt around. I imagine not having my bookshelf, which stands in for me when I can't be bothered explaining all of my tastes and aspirations. And this is my bookshelf. Like, please just observe. And then I don't have to do that interpersonal legwork. So I'm thinking about this quote that I actually inadvertently read of yours when I was doing
00:21:49
Speaker
a copy job recently and I bloody loved it. you You were talking about cultivating more personality as opposed to like a persona that is based on things you consume and then kind of in emblazon and embellish yourself with. Can you expand on that a little bit? Cause I fucking love that. yeah well i It feels in a way like a bit of an asshole thing to say, because you don't want to put anyone in the position where they feel like, oh, but I'm just shy. And that's really hard for me. But it does in no way exclude that. There's all forms of shy that exude masses of personality.
00:22:26
Speaker
It's more a question of I think we have kind of become quite used to the carapace of stuff that we surround ourselves with as really speaking for us a lot. And I don't know, I mean, I'm sure you've heard cultural critiques that say that we're stuck in a slightly neotenized society where we have really prolonged adolescence and even away lifelong adolescence to some degree. And to me, that habit of that self representing carapace of stuff is quite an adolescent trait, you know, when you're a teenager.
00:23:03
Speaker
you're really signaling to other teenagers and other people who you are by how you're doing your hair and what clothes you're wearing and where you're seen and if you sit in a certain way like there's a lot of visual signaling happening um and that's why it feels so important to teenagers is that they've got the right stuff for the you know the the right haircut or the right shoes because you really rely on that that phase of persona creation um because you haven't actually created a full-blown personality yet and know how to demonstrate it to the world so you really you need those crutches but it does seem
00:23:46
Speaker
like we've extended that into adulthood a lot. I mean, I don't know, I'm not historically educated enough and I can't filter the information out of all the historical novels I read since they're mostly about rich people. I know if this is actually true for all of society, maybe adults have always done this just as much as they've got the means to. In a way, it seems like we can do better. um And I think it does let us get a little bit lazy and a little bit flabby about showing who we are. um And I think as kind of members of Westernized cultures, we're a bit more at risk of that than say more Latin cultures. I hung out with an Italian extensively for a while last year and we had a really critical conversation at some point where he said, in Australia,
00:24:43
Speaker
everyone's aim seems to be pretty much to fit in and in Italy you're kind of considered like you're not a man yet unless you're standing out as being that guy with that that personality like you're flamboyant in this way or you've got these incredible skills or um you're really well spoken or you're a really sharp dancer but whatever it is you're really that thing or no one's no one's going to respect you you have to really be whatever you are he said to me and
00:25:19
Speaker
He said in Australia, it's it's almost like everyone just wants to dial down whatever they are. He'd really struggled with that. And i yeah, I think it's a bit of that Anglo-Saxon heritage, that that English sort of let's be a bit agreeable and demure thing, is that we try and tone ourselves down, whereas it is it it is a definite aid to to not needing as much stuff to demonstrate who you are. is to is to let that personality kick on. And as we say in the book, it you kind of do people around you a service by being a bit weird and being been worth talked about. um And that includes all the things that you might even feel embarrassed about, like your house being a total dump. it's if If you're someone that just doesn't really care,
00:26:10
Speaker
then have your house be a bit of a dump and let your friends have a good time. I'm just going, oh my God, I cannot believe their house. And that's fun for them to bitch in that way. And you get to have your house the way it is. And it becomes a bit of your personality is that you're this slightly devil maker, slightly messier people. And then there's someone like me who's Germanically, anally retentive about having everything in its place. And that's part of who I am. And that's fine. And I think, yeah, this this evening out thing is it's a bit dull and it doesn't make life fun for any of us. Yeah, yeah. And I suppose the the friction occurs when you're rubbing up against those other judgmental teenagers and a big part of you, of me wants to
00:27:00
Speaker
obviously have that love and ah approval. And I'm wondering how you've coached yourself over those splintery times of being an oddball, of going against the grain, because you do in a lot of ways, I know that you do. And I find that so refreshing. But I also have a big query as someone who who really does want to fit in, whether that's just this cultural kind of atmosphere that I'm part of or parenting or an innate thing. But how do you coach yourself into that space. Yeah. Uh, my answer is probably a bit brutal actually. Oof. Oh no, it's incredibly energetic and a bit brutal. I think I have two things that seem to work in my favor.
00:27:42
Speaker
um One is that I'm really very focused on non-human beings quite a lot so i think that and get a lot of pleasure and fulfillment and love from the non-human world. So I think it takes the pressure of how much I care about what humans think of me a bit because I don't know what particular combination of culture and parenting and genetics and stardust came to make me this way, but I've always been what would have historically been termed an aesthetic is that I am incredibly euphoric in natural settings and in personal romantic moments. And so it just makes you a bit less reliant on other people's opinions when you've got that intrinsic sense of fulfillment.
00:28:33
Speaker
that you can tap into.
Finding Fulfillment in Nature
00:28:34
Speaker
um The non-brutal thing is that I guess I have very, very high levels of empathy, probably to be honest, fueled a little bit by some adolescent drug taking. I'm not sure if you want on the podcast, but I really did have those moments in teenage acid trips of looking around and going, oh, everyone is so tender and so full of fear and hurt and feeling like everyone's shells just fell away from them and that I could see that vulnerability in everyone around me. And so I've always have taken the approach that if you can make people feel good,
00:29:33
Speaker
By giving them a genuine smile or flirting with them a bit, and I don't mean in a sexual way, I mean in that humans like to flirt with each other way, being a bit playful with them. Or just giving them some really damn good eye contact that they'll forgive you for a lot of the other stuff that you do. And if i for some reason I continue to push that. I mean, I work out of the library a lot of days and... i have I have my jars of a homemade lunch and I have, you know, my six-year-old plastic water bottle that's got bits of the adhesive label still sticking all over it. And I've got my tattered backpack and because I've got some chronic health issues and I'll be wearing fingerless gloves, they're all frayed at the edges even when it's not cold. and
00:30:23
Speaker
a strange big anorak, but I know that if I make the right kind of eye contact with people when they walk past me. that I will be treated as someone who is not a lost member of my society, which I could easily be perceived as with a passing glance. um Because there's a lot of itinerant people in libraries, and I mean it literally, like I could visually pass for one of them often, because I have just become so ridiculously uncaring about what I wear and how I present.
00:31:01
Speaker
um Don't smell like wee, that helps too. um but But if you sit there with enough confidence and you look at people in that upright way, then they're like, oh, no, no, this person, this person is okay. And I use that to not care if people see me pick up an apple that some school kids just thrown out of their school bag at their friend on the way home and go, I'm not gonna let that apple go to waste. That's going in my porridge in the morning. And I just kind of tend to pick up that apple and then look around and go, yeah, anyone got a problem? Or if someone's walking past, you might look a bit perturbed. We love to look perturbed. I'll just give them that big smile and go like, why waste it? And people will then come around to your side and go, fair point.
00:31:47
Speaker
And yeah, i think I think that smile that acknowledges that that we're all a bit more punk and renegade than maybe we thought we were is something you can tap into in other people if you share the right facial expression with them. How does that relate to the vulnerability I was talking about? Oh yes, just because people love it when you make that genuine appeal to the facts that you're going, we're all a bit messed up and I'm a bit weird and you're a bit weird and let's just be really nice to each other. And people care more about the niceness and that smile and that eye contact than they do about whether you're a bit weird or you're doing stuff that's not like how they do it. And if they don't, you probably don't want to spend too much time worrying about them.
00:32:30
Speaker
Hmm, a great and solid piece of wisdom. And I do want to hear more about the half eaten apples in your fruit bowl and all of the other weirdery that you participate in that may become somewhat invisible to you over the course of your everyday life where this is just your councilold culture. But can you share a little bit more about the things that you do that really bring the frugal hedonism, hedonism, um I'm not ever sure of the correct pronunciation of that, Annie. You say hedonism. I say hedonism that might be an American father coming into play. I'm not sure. Hedonism is a bit more more popular in the US, but it's it's very 50-50. There's no correct pronunciation. So you say it however makes you feel
00:33:19
Speaker
Thank you. I'm going to go ahead on Ism. But yeah, what are those what are those things that you're doing day to day that um are just kooky as hell and utterly worth telling us about? One of the really simple little things that I like doing is messing with regularity because you know in adult life you have to often live quite prescriptive days, get up at a certain time, do a certain thing, be a certain place by a certain time. And I really like to about once in a week just totally infringe on that and say, well, I'm just going to get up and start my working day at 3 a.m. And that will create this whole extra different set of stimuli where I go
00:34:03
Speaker
OK, and what would what could I add to that to make it special? Well, I'm going to take my tea that I make after I've woken up and go sit it on the back porch, whether it's raining or not, and look at the moonlight to drink that before I start working. um And then because I've started so early, then it probably means that I'm going to be really tired at about three. And so I'll get to have a little nap then, which is not something I would usually have time to do. and So that creates its own sweet little flavor of, oh, an afternoon nap. And so you kind of get, and this is obviously much more possible for someone that works to their own timetable um or works from home. But I really like playing with time like that. That's one little hedonistic trick that just bumps up bumps up the riches in a week. if you've If you've got nothing else obvious going on, I find it just a cheap in to sort of, ah, this week just acquired more color.
00:35:00
Speaker
And I suppose I love looking for those opportunities to turn either painful, annoying, frustrating, tawdry things or just banal things into something with a bit of magic. So say we ordered some ah fruit tree netting recently. And it all came in one massive length. Like I think it was 65 meters of insect netting for fruit trees. And we went, how do we cut this up into lengths? Like we can't lay it out anywhere to to even begin to measure it, to cut it. And so my partner, I took it to the local park and had this, what turned out to be just totally magical experience, pulling out this
00:35:54
Speaker
66 metre length of of insect netting that looked like a big bridal veil and people kept coming up and saying, oh, are you preparing for a wedding or something? Because it would look like it was, you know, tulle that we're going to drape over a marquee or something. And then we, so we started seeing the wedding march as we were coming together, folding it. And we got all these tape measures that we were and we were crawling up and down the lawn of the grass with tape measures. And as we'd approach each other, we'd hand the tape measure to each other in our teeth. ah We just got totally stupid with it. And it could have been such an annoying job trying to measure out these lengths of fruit netting, but taking it to the park and then just getting a bit stupid with it made it really fun.
00:36:36
Speaker
And weird I mean in the last two days we've talked and said wasn't that great on the weekend when we cut the fruit tree netting and we'll sigh and go yeah that was the best because it was the most fun that we had all weekend. And I don't know We watch a movie usually every Sunday night and we have a projector that we project that onto. And so we've made a little ritual where we pretend that we're going into a cinema since we try not to spend money on going out to cinemas because it's, and so each of us has a movie ticket we saved from the last time we did go to the cinema and we have to stand at the door and pass it to the other one to come into the house. And it's like, I'm going to please and we'll have a torch to show each other into the couch. And
00:37:18
Speaker
just playing a bit like that, making stuff a bit stupid. but But for me, the greatest source of ongoing hedonism is the sensual world. I love to to walk barefoot on all kinds of surfaces. And I love to just sit and do nothing for a little bit. It's so underrated and I'm as susceptible to anyone else, as anyone else to the lure of constant listening to podcasts and so on, whatever you're doing. And so I find my brain can get really very full feeling and a bit overtaxed because I'm not, I mean, we are not evolved yet. We might get there, but we are still not evolved to taking this amount of information and stimulation on a daily basis.
00:38:14
Speaker
And I'll often realize that I'm feeling a bit upset or a bit wound up and I'll go, ah, you have not single tasked once today. The whole time that you were doing all that cooking and cleaning this morning, you were making phone calls and you were listening to podcasts. And then when you did all that work stuff, you were sending texts and emails at the same time and trying to keep an eye on something on the stove. And that's when I'll go, ah you should have 10 minutes.
00:38:52
Speaker
where you just do nothing, you know, and I'll find somewhere to go sit and just sit down for 10 minutes and do the classic kind of mindfulness stuff of go, oh look, here I am, there's some rock under my butt, feels cold, there's There's some birds eating the seeds on the ground because all the summer grasses dropped its seeds. And it's so luxurious to do. like it's It's so luxurious that it seriously feels like a commodity. it it's the more The more you're lacking in it, the longer it takes you to get into it.
00:39:31
Speaker
but And so 10 minutes can can absolutely not be enough if I've been doing too much stuff. But when you do sink into that space, it is just so luxurious to to sit there and have nothing going on but the world around you and thoughts. you know I think with all of that listening and communicating is leaving us less time just to to think. And so it does become, I mean, whatever is unfamiliar is scary to us. And so just thinking does, has taken on a status of being a bit scary. It's like, oh, I'm just here with my thoughts. That's it. That's all. And so yeah, it can be uncomfortable um if it's not something that you do very much, but then it can be great too. And
00:40:27
Speaker
Even when it's uncomfortable, I feel like I generally come out of it going, oh, there was so many flavors in there and I feel like way more time has passed than actually just passed. Cause a lot happened in that time of doing nothing and just letting myself think and observe.
The Joy of Water
00:40:48
Speaker
And water. Water is one of my greatest hedonisms. Every form of it. Doing things in the rain, You know, I was moving mulch this morning and started raining pretty heavily and I was about to go inside and I went, no, fuck it. And I took off, I stripped down to my singlet and kept moving the mulch. And just to feel like water running down your bare arms and the back of your neck and so on is just so good. I live near the ocean.
00:41:15
Speaker
I try and get in the ocean all the time. Um, I have Reynard syndrome, so you can't being cold water for very long. So I'm going to have to stop that soon. Uh, otherwise, cause it messes you up for like half of the day if you, if you do it. But um because of that, it means I won't be going to the ocean naturally for swimming every day. Um, So instead I've changed my route of where I ride to the library to go to work. So that I always go is a slightly longer route, but I'll always be riding past the ocean now. And so I make sure I leave that 10 minutes extra early so I can stop and just look at the ocean, which looks spectacular in winter for the most part, see what it's up to. Imagine myself in it.
00:42:02
Speaker
and then keep on my ride. And it's so worth that extra five minutes of the ride and the the couple of minutes that it takes to stop and look at the ocean and see what it's up to. Yeah, I guess the natural world definitely one of the biggest things and that's, you know, the birds in the backyard and so on. It's just, there's so many other species and elements around us doing stuff all the time that I would feel so impoverished if they weren't part of what I was noticing and thinking about on a, minute to minute basis, literally. I mean, even if I'm watching a great movie and I hear the flocks of Carnaby's cockatoos flying overhead, I will pause it to listen to that flock of Carnaby's because I never get tired of that huge like gothic kind of screeching sound filling up the sky. Or if you know, if I'm watching a great TV show and
00:42:57
Speaker
I hear a really good rainstorm come through that's going to make that excellent sound on the roof. It's like, oh, screw this. and Pause this until the rain's gone past because I want to hear that sound. I love being a modern human who gets to do things like watch movies and be in a bed and be in a cozy house. But I don't want that to ever come at the cost of excluding those things and the fact that they're always around me. operating in their frameworks as being part of what's happening in my world. Like I just kind of never want to fully shut them out to that degree where I wouldn't pause the TV show to listen to a rainstorm come through. Hmm. Yeah. Thank you for the vivid descriptions.
Health Challenges and Coping Strategies
00:43:46
Speaker
And you've alluded to health challenges a couple of times and I'm wondering how you go about not letting them get you down or how do you let them get you down?
00:43:57
Speaker
if that makes sense as a question. So like a lot of people, I have a very nebulous cluster of semi-diagnosed health problems that are sort of autoimmune, but really pretty extreme in their effects on my life. um So at the moment I'm having trouble walking comfortably. I've got what is suggested to maybe be mild rheumatoid arthritis on top of all the other things that I've already had, I get chronic headaches. I've got, you know, lots of problems with thermoregulation. So I really struggle with hot and cold temperatures and I'm histamine intolerant. So there's whole ranges of food that I can't eat without getting migraines. I'm very, very sensitive to all sorts of chemicals and smoke and perfume and so on. They'll all give me migraines as well.
00:44:51
Speaker
um and And so this, you know, it's pretty much impossible for me to travel overseas at this point. So it is this sense of, it shuts down your opportunities quite a lot. And it's really hard often. I'm not going to pretend it's not. I feel really grateful to have been a teenage goth because I think it teaches you to be quite comfortable with getting angry and depressed.
00:45:27
Speaker
um Cause I definitely noticed, and I'm sure a lot of people have experienced this, that the worst form of being angry or depressed is when you feel really shit about being angry and depressed. Whereas if you say it's okay that I feel this angry and depressed and get a bit stuck into it, you know, like I've had, I've had to quit a couple of jobs that I've taken on in the last few years, because as much as I get enough income from the books um for a very, very cheap lifestyle, I miss working with people.
00:46:12
Speaker
So I've tried, you know, getting back into horticulture, which I had to stop because of health problems, um, just to do one day a week or even a half day a week here and there. And health problems have always gotten in the way, um, because of problems with hands and feet and with being in the sun and so on. And I remember like after having to quit the second job that I was really enjoying doing the work and hanging out with the people. just being in such a rage and so bitter about my lot and feeling like life was so unjust but riding home from the first day after quitting that job when I would have been there and thinking I should have been at the nursery hanging out with all those fun people today and instead I'm back here working alone in a library
00:47:06
Speaker
um and riding home and just being so angry but then making that decision to really go with that that anger and to like sing yell the whole way that I was riding home and I use an electric bike ah um so I turn my electric bike off and they're really heavy to ride when they when you haven't got the power on at all you have to pedal really hard So it was like you know being on a rowing machine or something. It's very intense. And I was riding through 46 degree heat and just yelling, singing, and came home and kind of rides around in the carpet for half an hour, just making moaning noises and going, hey, this is so stupid. Hey, hey, And then that was all kind of so ridiculous and good that I felt like, well, at least I got something good out of all that rage and anger. And then I tend to,
00:48:01
Speaker
pick myself up and go, well, what would the story of someone that I would like to know or like to be, who has these limitations look like? And this is where literature becomes very helpful, I think, is you go, well, if this was a character, yeah, if this was a character in a book that I wanted to feel a bit romantic about, how How would they deal with this? What would the sentences describing them sound like? And it would say things like, well, they couldn't go for huge hikes anymore because of their problems with their feet, but they took up playing the cello to try and release them.
00:48:47
Speaker
the pent-up physical energy for sort of being bodily in that romantic way that had previously been used in going for epic hikes. And so I went, all right, I'm going to start learning a stringed instrument and work my way towards the cello. And if that means I have to be like this slightly bitter aged woman that sits there and plays the cello and can hardly walk up to the end of the block, but it's got all this woeful music coming out by my cello music and that feels like some form of expression. that has a story in it that I can believe in. So I tend to go for the story angle because I think that fits with me as a very aesthetic person and because in my proven experience it's that that always works for me best is is tapping into that ah sense of aesthetics um and also across the board human beings are shown again and again to be story making animals and that when we feel the most pain and the most
00:49:45
Speaker
struggle with what we're experiencing is when we don't feel like we have a good story around it. You can sell people any kind of politics if you give them a good story around it. You can make people perform incredible acts of self-sacrifice if you give them a good story around it. We just need a story. um So I try and look for whatever story I can tap into. It still doesn't make it not really hard sometimes, but it makes it bearable and often beautiful, which are two very important things. um Yeah, one of my big motivations is this will be a great story. And it's nice to hear that echoed. yeah And I wonder how much you do draw on your own life experiences to furnish the tales that I know you're penning at the moment, or whether you have some other kind of portal of ideas and creativity that you're tapping
Annie's Ecological Fairy Tale Novella
00:50:35
Speaker
into. Very much life experiences, actually. I mean, I'm a big reader too, so lots of that.
00:50:43
Speaker
Um, but the, the novella that I'm about to get published is, it's, it's a freaky little thing. It's sort of, it's a fairy tale retold. I won't tell you which one cause that spoils all the fun that sort of gets, becomes clearer and clearer as you. realise it, but told through a very ecological lens. So it' ah there's all the things happening with the human beings, but there's all of the microorganisms and multiplying and trees are communicating to each other through their mycelial networks. And that' that's all present simultaneous to the human activity. And it's
00:51:23
Speaker
It turns the fairy tale into a real historical event based around some volcanic eruptions that happened in Indonesia in 1257 that then created an extreme winter for about three years in Northern Europe and the effects that that had. And I've sort of set the fairy tale in that. So that's personal experience just in that.
00:51:48
Speaker
I love volcanoes and I've claimed a lot of volcanoes. And I have a huge respect for their power as weathermakers and makers of the landscapes around them. And this was ah just a greater extrapolation of this, is how can these volcanic eruptions even be affecting people on the opposite side of the planet? Because that's something I could never stop thinking about when I was climbing volcanoes, is all these people living near this, when it erupts, it affects them so much. How do they feel about that? um But then bringing it in into the story decisions about when to have kids and not have kids based on how you see the viability of your environment. And so that's happening with the human characters in the story and all of the non-human organisms in response to this this prolonged winter. um And that's a question that I've wrangled with a lot myself is do I see the world that we're moving into as an environment that's fit for bringing children into?
00:52:44
Speaker
And it's not the same thing as when a stork says this is a harsh coming winter and I'm going to chuck the weakest of my hatchlings out of the nest and kills it. But it's not that different when it comes down to it. I'm just a different kind of creature that can make that decision about my repro reproductivity at a much earlier point in the equation than the stork can. And I'm assessing the environment that I live in as one that is not fit for supporting healthy, happy human offspring in the future. And so I haven't had children. So I guess, yeah, saying that novel, it's huge.
00:53:24
Speaker
Ecosystem interest interests in decisions about reproductiveness and volcanoes. And the current novel that I'm writing is ah has a central character who has chronic health problems, who there's ongoing questions being not explicitly asked, but insinuated through the book about whether those health problems come from a sort of physiological despair about the destruction of the natural world. And that's a question that I've wrangled with a lot. um And that makes it sound maybe a bit
00:54:07
Speaker
abstract but I mean that, I mean that's a question I ask in really quite mechanical ways as well is that despair is both on the cellular level of having forever chemicals in your body and so on, and on the what your stress levels are doing in response to going, oh there was that beautiful old tree up the street from me and now that whole block's just been developed and now there's no tree there anymore and then it's just happened on the next block up the street and then on the one opposite and how that makes me feel like a tense up every time I see that happen and how those accrued tensions affect how your body functions and so i I'm trying to write a book that explores that while it's also kind of
00:54:50
Speaker
a fairy tale in a whole different way and full of magical animals and islands that don't exist. Wow. Which are also things that I like to think about. I really can't wait to devour these. Well, it's going to be published now, which didn't look like it was going to happen at all. So so you'll be able to devour them in printed form, even not in just I've sent you an email with a book attached to it for which might have been the case. A year ago, before I found the publisher. Well, my brain is salivating and I'm wondering with the whole like decision to spawn or not to spawn thing. Did I guess correctly that like there's a cynicism or a despair around what's coming for humanity? Is it like our environment doesn't need a bigger burden or is it that everything's collapsing and let's not put put people through that the death throes of our civilization? Like where?
00:55:49
Speaker
does your mind take you? All of the above, I guess because it has been so heartbreaking to me to see even in my short lifetime, I'm 45 years old and I've seen so many natural environments that I worship become lesser than they were, like there's no other terms for it, like they've got concrete boardwalks all over them or they're all together destroyed or you could swim in the river there before and you can't now. And I cannot imagine me producing a child, other people might, but I cannot imagine me producing a child who would not feel those agonies as badly as I do.
00:56:34
Speaker
And also, I suppose I frame the the world doesn't need that burden of another human things slightly differently. I did actually try to write an article, well, I wrote an article about this once that I'd never found. I wanted to publish it in a magazine um because I felt like it was an important take on the decision to not have children, which is that rather than seeing that as this kind of sterile act of non fecundity that when I made that decision, I really framed it in the opposite way. That by me not creating another human being who I know, even if they're the most conscientious human being in the world, will inevitably create huge negative impacts on the habitats of other organisms.
00:57:31
Speaker
that it felt like I was birthing something, like ah a gift, a generosity, a potential for these other organisms to have just that scaric, more breathing room and living space. And that that was like the act of generosity that I wanted to give is, and that that was my act of fecundity is the opposite. It's sort of, I am not creating another human life because I want to help give space for non-human life to to bloom. Sorry, I could almost cry because I really, really care about this. Yeah. And I know it's a very contentious position, but I have a huge respect for the sort voluntary human extinction movement and so on.
00:58:28
Speaker
is that i just I feel like there just needs to be less of us. It doesn't matter how good we get at green tech and at behaving as the best possible, most integrated human beings, there really needs to be less of us. And so I try and do my part in that. And I understand that for some people having a kid is the pinnacle of everything they want to do in life. And I say like, in that case, go for it.
00:59:01
Speaker
But if there's any question in your mind, then make the call not to. Like if you're not sure that this is something really, really important for you, then make the decision not to. And that's something I will say upfront, even to friends with children. And yeah, I really i really struggle with friends who have decided to more than reproduce themselves. because to me that's sort of just getting a bit greedy at this point in history. It's like if you really want a kid, and yes, if you really feel like you can't imagine having a kid growing up alone, and so you won't have two kids, I get that. But once people get past that, I actually really struggle with it. And I will tell people this, because I think we're at a point in history where if you know what the score is, then that's it's just not an appropriate thing to to do anymore. And
00:59:56
Speaker
You know, I'd sort of put the cutoff point for that fairly recently, because I don't think most people understood on a gut level quite how dire a situation we're in. So it's not like I'm condemning people that had three kids eight years ago, but coming to the last five years, I will, I start to get judgy. It's one of the few things that I get judgy on. It's like, we don't, we can't, we can't keep doing this. We just can't. Yeah, there needs to be more living room for everything, everything else, or things are just going to get nasty. And i I understand that some people feel like, well, if I don't have kids who have good morals and good brains, and then other people will just have more kids than the balance for the tip, it it's just not a strong enough argument for me. Yeah.
01:00:48
Speaker
So I've probably offended a few people just now, but it's something that I can't help but feeling, because it's just the maths of where we are. It really is. I appreciate the honesty, and everyone has their pet opinion on that topic, and I hear them change really frequently, and I know that external forces and circumstances do alter our perspective on that as well. And yeah, I think it's really good. i mean You can have huge family pressures. you get There's so many reasons that you make that decision, which is why, even though I say I get judgy on it, only just the tiniest bit. I'm like, oh, well, can't really get behind that, but I see that there was a whole lot of other stuff going on. you know i'd I'd like to move into a phase where we go, okay, we're going to try and drop our reproduction rate to below, and a huge, ah huge
01:01:45
Speaker
component of that is, as I'm sure you know, educating women in developing countries that as soon as women have the power of contraception and education in developing countries, then family sizes just start plummeting every single time that happens. is yeah You give women the means of control and they don't actually want to have five, six, seven kids. I'd love to see humanity move into a phase where we become really mindful about our consumption and really just value the heck out of whatever we consume. um And I'm not, I'm not a total hair shirt martyr when it comes to consumption at all, which lots of people maybe would assume that I am. If there's something that I really want, and I'm really going to use, I'll buy it. Like it, I won't
01:02:38
Speaker
spend months looking for a functioning rain jacket in a secondhand store. I'll look for a few weeks, but if I can't find one, and it's like, no, I really want a really good rain jacket. I'd spend a lot of time in the weather. I'll go i'll go buy that. Or if, you know, I go, I only buy new shoes. I can never find secondhand shoes that are comfortable. Or if I see like an amazing, what did I buy the other day? I bought something. Okay, it doesn't happen them very often. Sparkly socks, I'll buy sparkly socks. I bought a geode.
01:03:13
Speaker
um An amazing crystal geode. But yeah, if I, you know, I will buy stuff, but I never buy stuff unthinkingly. Because to me, it's just kind of obscene. It's like, I'll never just buy something at the drop of a hat. That's not what all those resources are for, is for me to buy it unthinkingly. It's a crass use of them. If you want to use more than your fair share of resources in the world, which I definitely do, at least really want that thing and really use it and really appreciate it. I can't get too angry at people who consume in a way where where they just get heaps out of what they've bought. It's like if we are going to bring the world down into a steaming pile of shit,
01:04:01
Speaker
Let's really, really love what we're getting out of that. Don't be just like bored and annoyed with life and go you're shopping to fill a void and then not really enjoy anything you've bought. That's just rubbish.
01:04:18
Speaker
I don't really want to cleanse our palettes of the dancing around a steaming dung pile image. So I think that feels like the perfect place to wrap this conversation unless there is anything else that you had in your heart and mind that you wanted to speak to on the topic of I suppose, like, preparing our spirits for what what's ahead and living with that kind of verve and vigour that you do. Maybe there's something else that you'd like to put forward, Annie, but I feel like you've shared so richly in this conversation. Funnily enough, it does come a bit back to that empathy thing. God, I haven't even done that much meditation. Where did all this empathy come from?
01:05:00
Speaker
um is Being empathetic towards your neighbours and so not judging them too much. um if they're not behaving the way you do because that way you just get really angry. The only reason I am the way that I am is because of everything that led up to me culturally that meant this parent turned out to be this kind of person, this person came out to be this kind of person and they happened to have the right genetics and I happened to land in the right town that I grew up someone who is quite content being Cindy and still has a really good time.
01:05:35
Speaker
My next door neighbor with their five utes and their, you know, giant barbecue, they didn't grow. That was not the two people that made them or the place that they grew up. It didn't happen that way for them. Um, but I know they're still really good guys and I love chatting with them and I like to joke with them. And even though I don't know if they ever use it, I'm going to keep bringing them bunches of parsley and lemons um might just rot in the fridge for all. I know I'm not really sure. Yeah, empathy for other people and the fact that most people actually feel like they are struggling on some level and so be good to each other in that way because it makes things easier for everyone and empathy for non-human organisms so that instead of feeling like you're resenting that it took you
01:06:30
Speaker
that time you might have wanted to spend doing something else to wash out your plastic bags and hang them out on the line to dry so you can reuse them all. That you go, that wasn't a stupid waste of my life. That was my love letter to all the other organisms that I have empathy for because Who am I to go put that shit in their homes and to steal the resources from their worlds that went into making another set of plastic bags rather than reusing those? and That's just rude and I've got empathy for them. I want i don't want to do that. Yeah, being playful and having empathy.
01:07:06
Speaker
Hmm. Thank you. I feel, I really hope that some Ibises are listening to this podcast, because I reckon they'd be really happy that there aren't plastic bags whirling around their sacred territories of the tip. I think the Ibises are just up the road for me actually, so yeah. They've got good hearing. Thank you so much Annie. It is such a delight to be with you as always. Yeah, thank you. Excellent work with the podcast.
01:07:38
Speaker
That was the feverishly inspiring Annie Raiser Rowland. If you live in Perth, Annie does the occasional Art of Frugal Hedonism workshop that you might be lucky enough to attend. Otherwise, as I mentioned at the start, please get your mitts on Annie and Adam's books through Permaculture Principles or hassle your local library to stock them. <unk> Today's podcast was brought to you by a disgruntled brushtale possum and you the listener via Patreon. Resculience is lucky enough to have support from people like Marieke, Jodie and Pat who pledge a monthly donation that warms, mycockels and increasingly fuels this project. Besides the time it takes to produce the show, which is about 20 hours a week, there are hosting fees and equipment costs that those Patreon pledges really help meet.
01:08:27
Speaker
So thank you so much to my awesome patrons who receive long-winded and vaguely entertaining video updates from me weekly, as well as the ability to pitch questions to upcoming guests and offer me pointy feedback. You can take a squiz at what's happening there and contribute to the show at patreon dot.com forward slash reskillience. To share some analytics, in the spirit of quiet surprise, Resculience has just ticked over 17,000 downloads. It's sitting at number 2 in the Australian Earth Sciences category and is also in the top 10% of podcasts as per episode downloads.
01:09:05
Speaker
And this week I'm shouting out to five new listeners in South Korea, which I loved visiting a few years ago. And I'm really intrigued to hear more about, especially in the realm of reskilling and remembering our creaturely niche. Thank you so much to you for continuing to listen, share, and subscribe to the show, which is pure podcasting dopamine. And don't be shy if you want to send me an email with guest suggestions or any suggestions, really. I met katie at katie dot.com.au and that is katie with a C, C-A-T-I-E. And it has been really great to spend time with you this week and see you in another couple.