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Episode 035 - Somewhere in Crime Part 1 - Heist Movies
20 Plays4 months ago
In this episode, we begin our look at the cinema of crime focussing on the heist movie.
Intro clip from Sidney Lumet's "Dog Day Afternoon" from Artists Entertainment Complex and distributed by Warner Bros
Opening music: https://pixabay.com/music/id-116199/
Closing music: https://pixabay.com/music/id-11176/
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Transcript
Introduction to Tuitions podcast on heist movies
00:00:01
Speaker
rob and people with six god
00:00:12
Speaker
thought the law and la emotions will begin i found the la and the la one Okay.
00:00:25
Speaker
okay All right, get away from those alarms. I'll get in the center. He moves. Take his head off. Put the gun on him. Get out of the second. Sonny? I can't do it, Sonny. What? I'm not going to make it, Sonny. What are you talking about? Put it on him. I can't do it, Sonny. Oh, fuck me.
00:00:55
Speaker
Welcome to the tuitions podcast, where myself, Sufire, along with my friend and brazen colleague, Scrumpy, discuss film and other media through a decades-long lens of mass media consumption.
Why do audiences love heist movies?
00:01:05
Speaker
In this episode, we begin our series on crime, starting with the heist movie. This is the tuitions podcast, so synchronize watches, put in your sunglasses, and keep the engine running as we begin episode 11, series two.
00:01:24
Speaker
Oh, fuck me. As we start to enter into these topics and then realize, oh, are we out of our depth? Probably. we We'll go anyway. Not too much we you know that we can chew in an hour's time, but... And to reach should exceed his grasp, you know? That's what they happen for. It's better to overreach than... Exactly. I mean, the funny thing about this topic is that I have seen and watched a lot of movies, as if you have, but I was surprised at how many great films I'd missed in this genre of heist and caper movies. I mean, for you, dear listener, you're in for a real treat in this episode, as the navigator way through heist and caper films, which is also the penultimate episode in the first half of season two.
00:02:13
Speaker
So yeah, and stick around to the end as well for information on Tuition's UK summer tour, which will be going through London and Manchester and beyond. All points continental. All points continental, yeah.
Mixing genres in heist films
00:02:30
Speaker
I mean, it's interesting, the Heist and Caper film, why do you think audiences like Heist movies so much? and i was I was thinking about this as we were approaching this. and like there's a um and always you know My thing is on this is like I always try to look for the commonality, like common themes, threads, kind of pull at those. There is an aspect, there's something cool about rooting for someone who's a little bit outside your normal system, you know basically either Not necessarily a bad guy, but not a good guy. Pretty gray, anti-hero sort of thing. It's very prevalent. But also there's the particulars of crime. like It's like white murder podcasts are so popular, stuff like that. you know There's these particulars, the details, ah seeing what goes into pulling something off that is seems near impossible. you know There's there's that that thrill of it that yeah also you can only see in movies. you're not you know Most people aren't going to have exposure to that kind of thing in their lives.
00:03:24
Speaker
and And then ultimately, you know, the the heist films are, you know, there' there's there's a lot of risk involved. there's they're They're like a good combination of action and thriller for the most part. If you're Michael Mann, somehow you have to ham fist melodrama horrific romance elements into it in your movie. Sorry, I was just watching Thief and I was just like, oh come on. This is a good point. I think it this is something that mixes a lot of genres. Yeah. You have action. You can even have some horror in there. and You've got it mixed with the war, right? You've got like Rogue One, Three Kings, Kelly's Heroes. Those are heist movies and they can be comedies as well. So, you know, Pink Panther, Bottle Rocket, going in style, that kind of thing.
00:04:08
Speaker
So you can go to it and I think the best of them concentrate on the characters themselves. So if you're like a fan of drama and like that kind of thing, you get that in there. While you also got that thrill that you were talking about, that sort of cognitive engagement of thinking, how would I do this? to Try to second guess. It's like sitting in a high stakes poker game or something where where you don't have anything to lose.
Foundational heist movies
00:04:35
Speaker
And I think there's another element that you know apart from like Rogue One being an example, you don'tly you don't know how it's going to end. You're going to assume it's going to end badly, but you don't know how badly or you know there's a there's a certain level of apprehension where you know there's there's not – I was going to say there's not sequel movies, but then
00:04:54
Speaker
Soderbergh with his Oceans movies, you know obviously throws out my face. But it's the same point. Each time, you're not guaranteed. you know it's like everything in This could be the last for these characters, like you said, that you really get ah sympathy for, involved with. And they're usually characters that are ready to go. you know there's not a lot You don't have to fill in a lot of backstory, right? You've got just kind of archetypes. but but ones that are really appealing in that underdog or slick sort of way. you know The people you hate they hate in the movie, you hate instantly. The people they love, you love. you know There's just this kind of instant camaraderie sort of thing to it, like the best ones, the best criminals, or the best heist movies, I think, have characters who are confident, but they're not assured. They're they're not jerks at the beginning of that, like, oh, I am so good at this thief ever, you know or something like that.
00:05:43
Speaker
They're more like, it seems much more like a job. Sure, something very functional. It's it's much, the the playing field feels a lot level more level, a lot more on the horizontal. There are a lot of heist movies that don't have heart and it's hard to get engaged with those. Those are ten focusing on the sort of mechanical action elements of it. But you know, they're also great for social commentary as well. You know, you get the whole Robin Hood making amends for a broken system, identifying with the underdog. It's a big one, right? and
Dramatic elements and flawed characters in heist films
00:06:14
Speaker
And then it's sort of a pure escapism as well. And especially the the world is at the moment. I'm surprised there aren't more of these movies going around, right you know, a certain amount of sort of wish fulfillment as well. But yeah, it's, it's, I mean, one one of the big, big ones is I've overlooked a lot of the movies from Jean-Pierre Melville. Oh, that's a shame on you.
00:06:36
Speaker
God, well, yeah. like like I mean, I'd seen a few, but that man, I, you know, you kind of, cause you, you watch the big ones and you know, some of his, his, his lesser known movies are just as good, right? It's, uh, it's just really been a lot of fun kind of going through these, but yeah, it's a great genre, but I think the one that really kind of kicked it off because you know the heist idea of a heist movie kind of started in way back in 1903 with a great train robbery by Edward S. Porter. Exactly. A recognized film anyway yeah is a heist movie.
00:07:16
Speaker
It's a heist movie. It's a sort of proto heist movie, right? Yeah. When John Huston did the Asphalt Jungle in 1950, that kind of brought together the structure that we're kind of used to now. We're defining. Yeah. Yeah. You've got the planning, the execution, the fallout afterwards. group The group that each of their own lives that you're interested in. Yeah. And, man, the asphalt jungle is just awesome. Yeah, that hits hard. It is so, so good. And, yeah, it doesn't pull any punches either. And just so you know, Marilyn Monroe's barely in it, although her image is now used, of course, on everything you see for it, but she's hardly in it. She's hardly in it, and she's sort of- She's great in it. I'll give her that, but it's a very limited role, so.
00:08:04
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The standout in that is Sterling ha erling Hayden. Here in other ones. But why he is in a household name is is absolutely beyond me. He is awesome. right yeah And then the other one, about the same time in 1951, completely different tone. You got the Lavender Hillbob, Charles Parton. Alec Guinness, and that starts pulling in a little bit of a comedic element into it as well. But I think- Well, there's the, and also the the thing with it being British, just feel there's something differently. It feels otherwise like it's very American, you know? It's just just like, we can do whatever, versus like, nope, robbery's very popular in Britain, trust me.
00:08:43
Speaker
There's been some huge ones and just their idea and their approach to it and everything like that, isn't it's just plays to the universality of it because there's so you know there's Asian ones, give there' so they hit across all, hitting a lot of genres but a lot of of communities and and countries of origin and such too. It's a kind of a universal, very universal not kind of theme. but Oh, sure.
Overlooked works and quality surprises in classic heist films
00:09:05
Speaker
And it it kind of goes back to something we mentioned when we talked about other genres as well, is that you could kind of overlay the kind of Greek tragedy over a lot of these. Well, you know, I think that the flaws that tend to come out in these movies is they're either impatient or they're they're far too greedy. like They don't know what enough is. Like, oh, we just to pull a height for this this amount of money, which is enough to live on right comfortably. And then they get a chance to double it. And what do they do? They reach too far. And that inevitably kind of ends to dark consequences. But talking about at the British, that you also have the French with Rafifian, 1950, right, from James lesson.
00:09:48
Speaker
Amazing. movie and just I didn't come to that one until way late. I only saw that a couple of years ago, actually. and i was like why One is you know access, but the other is like, why have been sleeping on this for so long? This is so good. Well, i mean this is the problem. They don't don't really promote these. We talked about the algorithm last week. and it's It's difficult to get hold of some of these movies. They had to get criterion and things, but they're expensive. you know exactly and if That's the only way to get a hold of it. you know that That pretty much gate keeps. Unfortunately. yeah yeah For these movies that are meant to not be you you know that sort of ... They're not art house. i mean they Some of them are very much so, but but they're not meant to be. and At their core, the heist movie is meant to appeal to everyone. This is drive-in, B-movie, you know thriller action sort of stuff for men.
00:10:36
Speaker
you know that's yeah I mean, this is the great thing about them is you can look at them as art house movies as well we looked out as art house movies. it's It's just something that crosses so many different genres, really, and types of movies. So i I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone who would enjoy any of these movies at some level. on some level And Rafifi also has that, you know, without spoiling too much, it's got a 30 minute high sequence that is absolutely silent, which is kind of silent, you know, with no sound as well. But man, yeah, fantastic. And the other one, and this is this is sorely overlooked, even for fans, Stanley Kubrick is 1956 is the killing man. And again, you've got Sterling Hayden in there just killing it.
00:11:27
Speaker
You know, we talked previously about creating narratives that are non-linear. This was non-linear. And we had a hard time selling this one where you see the different points of view of different members of the gang and various points in the robbery from different perspectives. So, you know, this is 1956. This is well ahead of Pulp
Glamour and comedy in 1960s heist films
00:11:47
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Fiction. Yeah. I mean, I would say about all these movies is they all feel really solid, right? Yes. Yeah. Very grounded. It's very sort of concrete and there and what you see is what you get. That was the 1950s. We're just sort of killing it with these these these heist movies. i mean you know Something that I would like to see is a heist movie around a character who's really desperate, you know who's kind of forced into that situation.
00:12:15
Speaker
where, you know, so something like the bicycle thieves, the bicycle thieves, right? But on on a grander scale, like with ah with a bank robbery, of getting actually us seeing kind of the desperate circumstances of the protagonist early on, and then understanding a little bit of why they almost have no choice. There are movies that have characters like that, but we don't see that beginning bit. like Dr. Afternoon. Dr. Afternoon doesn't give you that, right? But it doesn't give you that. You you get told why what what kind of led to this and you've got some clues, but you don't actually see that. But if you saw the character like you do in the Bicycle Thief, because by the time that it gets to the bi bicycle theft in the movie, it's kind of heartbreaking that you get to that point. It's become cool to see a sort of heist movie that that actually gives you that background.
00:13:07
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But yeah, and then moving into the 60s, they started to go for that sort of glamour and style, started introducing some more comedy elements in it. Yeah, had things like Thomas Crown Affair, Steve McQueen, Faye Dunaway, Italian Job as well. no And again, Michael Caine killing it, that movie. The original Italian Job. The remake was okay, but the originals just got the money. I mean, yeah and and I know You know, not so much over here, but I know on your side of the pond that movie was huge. You know, it's like up there with like the damn busters for movies men know kind of things or something like that, right?
00:13:44
Speaker
And the the whole idea of like they didn't someone finally, like what was in the last like what five, six years, finally figured out how they could finish how how they could get out of the situation, the literal cliffhanger, at the end of the Italian job. And somebody finally figured out something that would work. but like you know To some fan, just as far as our collective thing. you know 40 years later, 40 plus years later, and somebody takes that long for like, when Michael Caine says, okay, I have a plan. you You're like, how? What? no And then they just leave you with that. It's like genius, but it's like, it is just like but then it's that same thing. What would that entail? you know So yeah, the level of engagement certainly increased with the broadening. I think what you see here, what you're talking about, you know broadening with the style and the blending of more genre elements.
00:14:34
Speaker
to it. And the the boldness, you know you were saying about you know Kubrick trying to get that made in the 50s. If he tried to make it in the 60s, he probably would have had far fewer problems with a different kind of narrative and that sort of thing. Well, they were bay breaking new ground in the 50s. You know, they're like, what's going on here? And it wasn't until they actually made money. Because of that that you got the stuff of the sixties, right? Yeah. Yeah. yeah and And then you had going back to the States in 1967, Bonnie and Clyde as well, Fay Denaway and Warren Beatty, Gene Hackman. And again, and and that had a real social commentary in it. Like a lot of it was about the Great Depression, you know, as they travel across, they they meet these people that have been
00:15:18
Speaker
They had their homes taken away by the bank, you know, the bank. And Warren Beatty gives his gun to him and says, have a few shots at the foreclosed house. Right. So it was positioning them as that whole kind of Robin Hood type, you know, making a man. Again, much more on the versus, you know, the Italian job. It's about the Italian job, you know, in the title. The titles were very clear, you know, Bonnie and Clyde. It's about Bonnie and Clyde. It's about that relationship. And that's why the last shots and everything, the iconic final scene in that movie is so much about the characters versus something else versus, you know, another one I'd throw in there, especially for Glamour and Style, is Bava's Danger Diabolique, which is like takes James Bond and then or R. Manflynn tour, you know, that kind of stuff and then just goes.
00:16:08
Speaker
And, you know, it's full of Bava nonsensical goodness. and But he's the, you know, he's like the James Bond you know of thieves. And so there's just that whole other, we but it works because it's the, you know, the and the the heist is involved in that too, you know. So, I think it still qualifies for the list, but just the idea that it could be also this kind of slick and you know this kind of slickness that you'll find really not until 80s, 90s with the the approach to it, not necessarily stylistically, but I think that and sort of, again, the the assuredness, the slickness, that kind of character, again, could only get away with it in the 60s, but then some of these retro, gonna retro that in 20, 30 years later, combining elements from that, that's all.
00:16:55
Speaker
Sure. I think that had a big influence over you know the character of Lupin. Oh, God, yes. i that the whole This whole era in the 1960s, and in fact, I'd completely forgotten about the castle of Cagliostro as well in terms of pulling together these lists, because that is definitely a heist movie.
Moral ambiguity and grit in 70s heist films
00:17:15
Speaker
That's getting together the team at the beginning. And then you have the actual heist and you have the the the you know foil in the policeman on the other side. But it's not a great example of 1970s next step, which was a sort of whole morally ambiguous, gritty, cynical, realistic tone. Quite a few of them were based on real life stories like the taking of Pelham 123 in 1974 from Jason Joseph Sargent with Walter Mathau.
00:17:46
Speaker
or movies like Getaway or The Killing of a Chinese Bookie, where you have this real sort of of grit, and then obviously Dog Day Afternoon as well. yeah But yeah. Well, you got to the 70s, and everybody loses. They might win, but what do they really win? What does it mean to win? you But it's the neat thing about this. the victim these There's these heavy moral questions that come into play once you get to the 70s of, you know, what what is at stake here? What are they really doing? Sort of the right idea, right? You know, why does like a character like Donald Westlake's Parker character, which comes up in a lot of highism school they don't there he's a he's a thief, a lot of heist movies. He's never called Parker until recently. Why does he keep going back? Because he maintained the author, maintained that consistency. Why does he keep going back? Well, he runs out of money.
00:18:36
Speaker
yeah it's like it's a very But he knows he can do it even though it you know it can cost him. And it could cost him a lot, but somehow he'll make it out and or just make it through, just survive enough to live, to fight another day sort of thing. you know So it's not necessarily you know like 70s sci-fi up until Star Wars. yeah We talked about in that episode of the the nihilism, necessarily. Like you said, the cynical to it. It's kind of like, eh, yeah. And look, everybody's dead. Nobody wins. It's terrible for everyone. you know But we're still watching and still entertaining as all get out. And I think we're going to come back to some of the movies in these periods later on when we start picking out some some of the recommendations as well. Yeah. Agreed. Until there.
Commercial action in 80s heist films
00:19:21
Speaker
And then going into the 80s, you had this whole, you know the time that we're in we were growing up, where it kind of went over. It's almost like like the transition from film to video, right? The 1980s, where things get a little bit more
00:19:36
Speaker
commercial and more action versus the drama elements starts dropping out a little bit. You mentioned Thief from Michael Mann. I think that might that's a sort of prime example of the 80s versions of these movies. Fish Called Wanda from Charles Crichton with John Cleese, Jamie Lee Curtis, and a great Kevin Kline in that and Michael Palin. The fish up his nose. But ultimately, it is a heist movie. I mean, it's that's what starts the action off it and ends the the whole thing with or the... Or Die Hard. Die Hard is totally a heist movie. That's the whole basis of it.
00:20:15
Speaker
I mean, that's one of the most thrilling bits of the movie, is the crew coming together. We we don't we don't see how this these people met up, but we we see them initiating the the plan at the very beginning. And we've never seen a crew like that. Right. yeah Yeah. Especially with Alan Rickman and his line, the way he delivers that great line, I am an exceptional thief. yeah She just calls him. She's like, you're just a common thief. and he That's where he takes issue. That's where you see him mad. right like That anger just comes through and he's like, I am not common. like you know it's Like, wow. You could say anything else, but yeah, don't say that.
00:20:55
Speaker
And then you had the Jim Henson's, the great one there. Right? that Qualifies. Yeah. Yeah. so so So you have that whole grit. I mean, it's a nice contrast to the grit that you had in the 70s, right? It just completely went the other direction in the 80s. Like a lot of the 80s did in contrast or in reaction to the 70s, right? Just across the across the spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. And heist movies were no different. But heist movies are still fun. They're still at their core. They're still that same combination of stuff. So you can pull that out and and you know slap anything else yeah else you want onto it. It's still going to be that at its core, right? It's still going to remain true you know if you're a purist of some kind. i don't I don't know how. But there's still these core things that need to be there. So you're kind of you're kind of restricted in a way. But then you get to play with the stuff on the other side of it. you know That's all.
00:21:52
Speaker
Well, I think think from the very start, you played around with somebody we talked about. You've got sort of the planning, the execution, and then the aftermath. And then movies started playing around with how they proportion that over the movie. Sometimes they get to the actual execution at the beginning, and the majority of the film is the
New storytelling styles in the 90s
00:22:11
Speaker
aftermath. Or going into the 1990s, like, Reservoir dogs, that that starts with the aftermath, right? you You kind of flash back to the planning, but you never actually see the execution. Yeah, and the object of the heist is a total MacGuffin. It's completely pointless at that point.
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah. It's completely about the relationships of all the characters, which which is which is a good thing about it. But I will say that I think Jackie Brown is the better movie of of of the two. For me, anyhow, I really love Jackie Brown. I think that has a- I have a separate discussion about that because that's, yeah, I've got, I have thoughts about Jackie Brown. I think having Pam Greer and Robert Forrester at the front of that movie really was smart. Well, and that's one of the things I think too, that good actors are allowed really to thrive in heist movies, like they can really elevate
00:23:10
Speaker
a real base source material like James Caan and Thief. Yeah, I mean he he knocks it out of the park. That's a great performance from him in that movie for for a really basic, almost two-dimensional character. We talked about Sterling Hayden before as well. ah Exactly. The guy is like, this is big goon. Everybody sees him. It's just this big, flat, emotionless goon. And it's like, nope. No, he's got a lot more in there. No, he just grounds as being really efficient. you know and I think he's comparable to Alan Rickman in Die Hard, right? Exactly. He is completely kind and confident and in control. And you know he can see through the bullshit, which is it great to watch. Another key aspect to a lot of this. yeah
00:23:51
Speaker
Yeah. And then other movies that we had in the 1990s as well, and I got to highlight Quick Change from Howard Franklin, yes Bill Murray, Gina Davis, and Randy Quaid. That has one of the best heists ever in a movie. And it kicks off the heist. And it's it's the escape from New York City. That's the joke and the the the tension, right? yeah They can't get out of the city. They've made they've pulled off this amazing heist, and it's that part is exceptionally well executed. it's And it's not getting away with it. It's the actual literal getting away. ra the That's the key. That's really one of the few few heist movies that really focuses just on that.
00:24:35
Speaker
kind of isolates that component to make a joke you know about New York and and the city and just the insanity and and all that. That's the other thing, but it it it really because came out in 1990, so just in the cusp of the eighties just finishing. But it was still taking, poking a lot of fun at, and not in a really serious way, but in a really gratifying way. It was this this you know There's the guy and during the holdup who's got like a Rolex and he wants to trade it. and he He gets like a Casio and in place of his Rolex, but it's that whole kind of of rich versus poor, the kind of, you know, wealth gap, which has got worse since then, but in the eighties with Reagan and all this, it was, is you know, a big deal, especially in big cities like Chicago and New York.
00:25:23
Speaker
But another one in the 90s, again, sort of taking that that sort of non-linear approach is Bryan Singer's The Usual Suspects with Gabriel Byrne and Kevin Spacey, Benicio del Toro. Some popular names in there. ah But moving on from the politics. Yeah. Yeah, so there's some controversial names in there with Bryan Singer and Kevin Spacey for sure. But the movie itself, though, works out really well. And yeah and again, it's also it's kind of the heist, because that's what's bringing them together. But you know there's that extra element of why they're brought together, which is a neat, again, really neat twist on it. well Even Bryan Singer could execute on that. so
00:26:05
Speaker
yeah i mean I mean, this is another thing and it's going to come out in one of the the choices that I have for films is that whole idea of if you pick up a genre like this where you've got conventions and you can play against people's expectations on that, right?
Ensemble casts in 2000s heist films
00:26:22
Speaker
Which is what what happens in the usual suspects is you're like, yeah you expect is you're going to go left or right. And it's like, oh no, it's go it's going to go up. You know, it's going to go in a completely different direction. or something else is going on. that that That is really great. But then when we get to 2000s, it's all about the ensemble cast, right? Yeah. We get the Ocean's Eleven movie. You know what? I've i've only seen Ocean's Eleven. I enjoyed it, and I didn't ever feel any need to watch any more after that. Oh, the others are good. Are they? I watched all of them during quarantine, during COVID lockdown. Okay. I watched all of them, including Ocean's Eight, all female.
00:27:02
Speaker
yeah mar reads on yeah Yeah. And they're all actually really good. In fact, they get into the, they all play with each other and stuff, you know, the characters that you discover about them. They're self-referential in a way that's not annoying. People from the first one come back by the third one, but in different roles. like they're they're drawn back in for some other reason. and Yeah. I mean, it's a nice mix that they they brought in there across different generations and and different different character actors. Yeah, i mean it's really good. And then you also had Frank Oz do the score with Robert De Niro, Edward Norton and Marlon Brando. I mean,
00:27:39
Speaker
You almost never hear about this movie anymore. right totally you know Frank Oz is is just a he's just he's just a great director. You always think of him as as you know the voice of Yoda or you know the puppeteer between Miss Piggy. but got what he's he He was such a good director. I think it's overlooked quite a bit. Something ah I've seen recently, it took me far too long to see this one, was Inside Man from Spike Lee. Yeah, that one again, that one slips under the radar, too. It doesn't get the attention it deserves. Oh, totally. and Spike Lee, apparently even before making it, knew that he wanted Denzel Washington and Clive Owen.
00:28:17
Speaker
like He wouldn't have made it if if he had to recast either of those two parts. And that is a classic heist movie. Yes, air mcal very very much so. But it's got a great cast. Yep, Jodie Foster in there as well. And got who else is in that movie? It's it's it's a nice ensemble cast that you get in that. And I think the heist sequences as well, you don't know why they're doing half the stuff they're doing. You kind of have some idea, but then it all kind of comes together at the end. So yeah, I enjoyed that.
Unique approaches in contemporary heist films
00:28:52
Speaker
And then another one for the 2000s is Sexy Beast from Jonathan Glaser. Oh yeah. And James Lane Ray Winstone. Although the the heist is the impetus, but it's not you know it's not the point necessarily. the movie I mean, it is, but it isn't.
00:29:06
Speaker
Well, this is the this is overt one of the few movies where the planning is like 90% of the movie. ah I mean, he doesn't want to do it. He just, no, no, no. Yes, yes, yes, yes. yeah you know That's ah that's a great as ah it's another one. i think I think it's starting to get more attraction, sexy beast. I think it's probably qualifies as being a cult classic by now. By now, yeah, I would agree. yeah and That's got a weird ending as well. Indeed. And then 2010s, one that I've seen recently as part of the preparation for this is Widows from Steve McQueen with Viola Davis. I have not watched it yet. I've had it in the queue forever. and It's good. It is good. I love the premise of it. You got Liam Neeson actually acting in this. He's done that huge role in it. but
00:30:01
Speaker
it's It's a good rule. I mean, it's got multiple heists in it. So it opens up with a heist and it kind of closes with a heist. But it is it is really, really good. and And actually, you know, I was talking about at people getting pushed to this point of desperation. This is kind of one. But I think the point that I was trying to get at is kind of getting to the point of ah desperation through kind of normal means, you know, just like living a normal life and getting to that any desperation, whereas in a lot of these movies, it tends to be they built up a gambling debt, or they owe a mob boss, or they you know something like this that yeah none of us are going to have to deal with. But it'd be quite interesting to see someone have a more down-to-earth reason. like
00:30:44
Speaker
you know through circumstances, I'm going to lose my house and you know or or you know I need to pay for an operation or you know any of that sort of stuff. yeah But yeah. And then we have Edgar Wright's Baby Driver in 2017 as well, which which seemed like a contentious movie. I really enjoyed it. I did too. And I would argue it's also closer to combining the musical element of it, which Wright has kind of done in the past, but I think with Baby Driver and then his follow-up after that the last night in Soho, different genre, but <unk>s there's almost a musical element or quality to it, the way the way the story flows and the way the characters interact with themselves, with each other, and and then their surroundings.
00:31:25
Speaker
on with that because when when I went to the b BFI recently, Edgar Wright had to do an impromptu kind of session because Dario Argento was meant to speak, but he wasn't feeling very well. And one of the things that he said was that music and rhythm to him are crucial to heist movies. And he wanted the high sequences in the movie to be like musical numbers, choreographed to the beat of the soundtrack. So you got a spot on there. so it's and And yeah, you can tell.
00:31:59
Speaker
yeah Edgar Wright approved Scrumpey. Actually, ah and another big one from this time period as well, I tend to forget, Inception as well from Christopher Nolan in 2010. Oh yeah, yeah absolutely. yeah Kind of a weird heist, but it did definitely had the planning, the execution and all of that. It was just a kind of A different kind of heist. But it it you know you could have swapped things out for money and it would be a normal heist movie, right? yeah And then, I don't know if you've seen this one yet. We've mentioned it a few times. Is the Old Man and the Gun from David Lowery as well? Yeah, I have not yet. Sissy Spacek, Casey Affleck. and yeah you know it's ah It's a good movie. It's a good movie.
00:32:46
Speaker
But 2020 to now, I was trying to think of examples that are worthy recently. And I can't think of any. It's almost like we went back to that kind of 80s thing again. And I think the 80s are making kind of a comeback as well. Yeah, I would agree. You have you know movies recently like What's it called? Ambulance. It misses the people part almost in time. But that's not overly surprising, as that's from Michael Bay. But I think right now, I'm surprised that there's got to be a new generation that is chomping at the bit for these kind of movies. Right? Yeah. We'll see them somewhere. We'll see. They'll come back at some point. But sort of thinking about the influential directors of these type of films, what's the first one that you would highlight?
Influence of Jean-Pierre Melville and Steven Soderbergh
00:33:34
Speaker
Chompy or Melville.
00:33:35
Speaker
ah damn ah okay yeah yeah yeah no that's No, you can tell you you co you feel free to go up it for me that was just like everyone else it's my favorite like pretty much it's clear they saw Melville movie even if they were new to them at the time like Kubrick stuff. Yeah, yeah back then or Sam Peckinbaugh and you know, you could see why the The French New Wave snobs tore everything down except Melville. They said, no, but he's but he's okay. We're leaving him alone because his movies rule. I was like, yes, you got to lease that part right, you know, the way they with with how they yeah but how they approach it. But it just is just his approach to it. And there's a couple other, you know, kind of French. with I don't know if it's something about the French in particular.
00:34:22
Speaker
And that made, there's another, when I mentioned the the Donald Westlake character, Parker, there was another version that's really good, really hard to find, if you can, called Pillaged. I will not try the French pronunciation of from like 67, so it's a little later. but it as well. It's another Parker one where a Parker, just because most people are not going to see it anyway probably, Parker actually gets caught at the end of it, which is ah an oddity in those movies as well. But it's an excellent story of a a heist and of a town. Like it's like the main industry in the town. So they're basically robbing a town. You know, just a real interesting kind of kind of spin on it. Yeah. But Melville in particular though, and I think he just set the tone for everybody else.
00:35:06
Speaker
I mean, this is the other thing, as you talk about French cinema, and some people will be put off French cinema, particularly if they jump in and deep in the deep end and watch like Godard. Like he did a band about fighters, which I think kind of vaguely fits into the heist kind of thing, but in a completely Godard. I mean, there's a quote from Werner Herzog that, where he says that he thinks Godard's films are intellectual counterfeit. Those are exact. exact and and And I know what he means. I know what he means. There's just something heartless about it. you know Inventive, mechanically strong, but kind of smug and heartless. And you know Band of Outsiders, which has a robbery in it, is was made within ah if ah the same time period as as these greats. And it's it's his most success accessible movie, I would say, right and some yeah right? But also at the same time, it still lacks that heart. And I think women are portrayed very badly in his movies. That's kind of that's another one that unfortunately cuts across a lot of this genre, is that women are
00:36:18
Speaker
rarely given much to do, you know, the the ones you find where they are that you know, you're like... <unk> they're kind of exceptional, but nine times out of 10, you know, even as good as they are or as awesome as they are, or as involved as a central character, they are at some point, our hero is going to slap them, you know, Bob Lee Fambour, Rafifi, the getaway, all of these, you know, you're just like, you're like, i bro, come on. You know, that's, but it's also, what do you expect? These are the characters that, you know, they're consistent to the character. It's just awful, right? It's it's just a little rough. And then the women never get to slap them back.
00:36:54
Speaker
well ah kind of thing Well, actually, if you you you do sort of think about it, the women do slap back sometimes. They have other ways. Yeah, sometimes they'll they'll betray, it but then it's usually like they'll betray them. Because Lee Martin gets slapped the hell out of. Oh, yeah. Point blank. like Point blank. But he gets slapped by everybody. Okay. So that's part of his care. That's part of of Parker. He's not the the character of Parker. He's called something else, but that's, that's kind of the thing. That's why he can like in a fight scene, punch a guy in the nuts. And and you feel like vindicated. You're like, yes, this is the level we're at. You know, it's a very good Borman. It's at a very consistent tone. I think.
00:37:33
Speaker
But anyway, yes, heist influential heist directors. i So, yeah, Jean-Pierre Melville, 100% on that one. I think you'd have to throw in there Steven Soderbergh, just because he's he's he's made multiple heists. He did some good things, Mike. It's okay. I know he hurt you. He really hurt me. but He made some great heist movies, and and including one I think we had on the list, we were you touched on it lately, was Out of Sight.
Soderbergh's unique contributions to the heist genre
00:38:01
Speaker
out of sight is great. and and And that's a heist movie that is almost done entirely with, well, it is done entirely with words. You see that guy, that desk over there, that's my partner, that's not his partner. you know I mean, he does it with words. It's it's fantastic. And you know for you know whatever you kind of feel about,
00:38:20
Speaker
you know, George Clooney or Jennifer Lopez. Jennifer Lopez is really good in that. but She's really good in that. She's also really good in the the last of the Parker movies that have been made. And when the one called Parker with Jason Statham, if she's in that has a bit role and I'm not a bit role. She's built second, but she has a very functional, highly functional role to the whole story. And she's great in it. She's really good in that one too. Right. Just sort of looking at time. So I think we picked one the director. I think Soderbergh and melville Melville by A Country Mile, just because he's kind of the godfather, isn't he, of all these movies? Like, he can trace back with clarity, you know, where where it's come from.
00:38:57
Speaker
mastermin he's the mastermind behind Exactly. so what's what What's the first film that a you're going to pick in terms of having a little bit of a quick deep dive? Yeah. The first one I picked was pick was ah The Outfit from 1973. This is another Parker, another Donald Westlake, although he's called Macklin in this one. But it's Robert Duvall, Joe Don Baker, Karen Black. They're the three kind of heroes of it. and Robert Ryan is the next to last movie he ever made. as the as the mob boss or the outfit boss. The plot is it's more revenge-based. Duval's seen in the opening scenes, he's getting out of prison on a big robbery rap. Well, the bank that they robbed, him and his brother robbed, was owned by this nefarious outfit. That's the name of the mob in this in this story.
00:39:48
Speaker
and Also, at the beginning, simultaneously with him getting released, is two goons show up and murder his brother, who did not go to prison for the robbery, or who did briefly and got out. so Macklin, Duvall's character, quickly enlists the help of this guy Cody, Joe Dunbaker, who's great in this, by the way. He's he's really good. But the two of them sat on this and and Karen Black gets it kind of involved with the mall, it was compromised, but then she doesn't want to be, but she's forced to do things because you the outfit is so powerful and they blackmail her into it sort of thing. But they start, so it's a series of robberies to get back at the outfit.
00:40:25
Speaker
not just for the murder of his brother, but also he estimates, he he does a computation to figure out it's a quarter million dollars they owe him. that That's for his pain and suffering. That's what he figures. did so So there's a total, which again comes up in other Westlake stories where Parker feels he's owed just this amount. That's all he wants. He doesn't need to go and get anything else. He's like, I just need my stake in this or my cut of this. It's nothing huge for you, but the whole principle of it, but he's so driven and everything like that. that you it becomes a problem for the powers that be. So he just wants what he's owed. It starts right out with kind of a double cross. It's also a buddy movie in a way with him and Joe Don Baker, but it's not a bromance buddy movie. They're just two. You can see why they're friends because they both approach problems in the very same way. They're both smart, both very practical.
00:41:17
Speaker
It's just good to see. It's just like, oh, they're not wisecracking. They're not telling jokes or anything. They're like, no, okay, yeah, you got this? Okay, yeah, let's go get this done. It's just a neat thing. There's a certain practicality to it again, very 70s. We talked about It doesn't have that pessimism or cynicism per se. It has a very, though, like I said, practical thing. And Duvall, of course, anchoring that is so good with that. And ah yeah, then there's like a, we do a as where like a standout scene. And there's one scene in that movie in particular that always hits people because... It's a little problematic, but they have to get a new getaway car. and so They go see you this you know guy they know out in the country. and It's Richard Jekyll, who's one of my favorite character actors, but he's the <unk>s the contact. well His sister-in-law is there with his brother.
00:42:09
Speaker
and she Jodon Baker goes inside and she kind of follows him and makes a pass at him and he turns her down and he's like, no, you're married. Besides, relax. Well, she freaks out at being denied and starts screaming that to the guys outside, you know, because they were the only scene between him. and He was trying to rape her inside the house. And so all of a sudden, everything, and I think this is probably, I haven't read his book, Tarantino's book, but he has a whole chapter just on this movie, apparently. There's a whole scene in there that's like, this is pure, like what Tarantino does so well of those seeds, where all of a sudden, everything, like the tension is just to a thousand. And all of a sudden, everything could fall apart right now, just because of one weird, you know, this hysterical woman, again, unfortunately, claiming rape, and she's not right, and say, okay,
00:42:55
Speaker
Again, a little problematic, but this the way the scene plays out is just, I mean, you know, everybody's got guns drawn except for, you know, a character or two. And, you know, Richard Jekyll's the one trying to calm everybody down. And it's it's it's fantastic. But it's so nobody's, yeah again, like Tarantino stuff, nobody's freaking out over the top. They're all very consistent with how they're acting and reacting. And it's just this fantastic. It's a great microcosm just of that scene of the rest of the movie, how I mean, committed and practical and everything else. Yeah, it makes me want to get cinema speculation from Tarantino. I was looking at it. I'll get it secondhand somewhere. It might be interesting. Yeah. Right. well And the film that I have is a Melville movie, which is The Red Circle from 1970 with Alan DeLong. And this this is as something very similar where you have the non-bromance bromance and it it's completely practical.
00:43:49
Speaker
yeah between the two characters in it, and it opens up with this sort of Buddhist kind of saying about the red circles, that when you draw the red circle around these two people, that they will inevitably come together at some point. And there are multiple characters in this, so they you've got the plot line of the fugitive at the start, and you've got the plot line of Alan Delon, who's being released from prison, but has an offer of a new job from you know a security guard, the prison, and you're kind of wondering how these threads are going to come across. But then you've also, who's portrayed as one of the main characters, so you know this policeman as well, who is hunting down the fugitive.
00:44:35
Speaker
and you ah Through the movie, you've got no idea how all these threads are going to come together. Then they throw in some more characters into it. and you know You've got this whole idea of the red circle from the quote at the very beginning of people you know through destiny inevitably kind of coming together. but it's It's just such a great movie. it's And again, I wouldn't say it's pessimistic. I'm not saying it's got a happy ending, but I don't think it's downbeat. I think it's a fun ride through the entire thing. I think the character's unbelievable. There are a lot of characters in it.
00:45:13
Speaker
And you see the strategies that the police use, which aren't altogether honest as well. And you also get the internal affairs involved. And they're super cynical in this movie. It's just great across the board. It's it's it's really, really good. But yeah, yeah, yeah. and and Just thinking through it a second. and We've already talked about some of these, so I'm going to kind of update my list because some of the ones who are already, ah ah those ones who are already mentioned are all pretty much there. like The one I will call out is another Belleville, the Bob Lee Fimbler, Bob Lee Gambler.
00:45:47
Speaker
It's a great one. yeah Which is great. It ends, again, but it also ends not, I mean, not sad ah necessarily. It's ah kind of just like the character. Yeah. like did he Did he get what he wanted? Well, kind of, but in a way that wasn't supposed to happen. You know, it's a nice, it's a nice U-turn or redirect. and It's really well done. It's a weird change. Yeah. it's It's not something that I saw coming, even though you think, should have seen that coming. You're like, Oh, of course. Yeah. And now it's obvious, right? Now, another one I want to call out would be 1992 from Hong Kong, a movie called Full Contact from Ringo Lam with Chow Yun Fat in the lead. And he's a yeah smart enough, smart too smart for his own good kind of thing. He gets involved in a caper with a team he does not know. And it's a whole thing of, you know, from ah
00:46:38
Speaker
reservation or Reservoir dogs, sorry, not reservation dogs. Reservoir dogs are, you know, Lord's tyranny is like, I shouldn't have my head examined, you know. But he gets, of course, double crossed and wounded and has to be resurrected by monks. And then he comes back and is trying to get revenge and set things right, sort of thing. So a bit more of a revenge, but it is ultimately there's the heist component of it and what he's trying to do and how he's hitting back at them by hitting their properties and such too, you know. ah knows more about. and So yeah you do a heist movie and a vengeance movie, all kind of old? Yeah, exactly. Which comes up more often than you think. As I was going through some of these, I'm like, huh, yeah, that's true. Another, I would call it as a really good heist movie for me was 2016's Hell or High Water with Chris Pine and Ben Forrester. And it's it's got that Old West
00:47:33
Speaker
sort of feel to it. see It's very very much intentionally almost a Western to it, but it's and the the heist. And again, that's one where you were asking about. That's one where the heist is because he just wants to get enough money so they don't foreclose on their property, their brothers. And the one brother comes up with this plan so they don't lose the family the family farm. Sure. That's the point of it. but You know, one brother's a little more insane about it than the other. And how they interact with the laws, side with Jeff Bridges being the law men chasing them and all that. It's just really, really well done. I mean, it's, you know, the heist and and and then the aftermath and all that. I mean, it's got all the components, not so much on the planning stuff, just more of like you kind of meet them already.
00:48:17
Speaker
in process kind of and then it's more the the heist and then the aftermath that are the focus of those. So in terms of what people may or may not have seen or something, kind of grab things that aren't necessarily out of the way, those those couple would be my biggest picks for it. I mean, generally speaking, and I don't think we both kind of agree on this. I think what's common between us both is is is just check out Everything by Melville. I'm not done yet. I've not i've come across. they're They're all really good. My first recommendation would be The Getaway from Sam Peckinpah, which is kind
Recommendations and key elements of heist films
00:48:53
Speaker
of a weird movie. You know, it's got Steve McQueen and Ellie McGronnett.
00:48:56
Speaker
Steve McQueen has been released from prison on the condition that him and Allie McGraw's wife, Robert Bank, for this no-gooder. It's Sam Peckinpah. It's a heist movie. I think that should tell you everything that she needs to know. Written by Walter Hill. It was one of his first movies as well. he was written and and di know what It was originally Peter Bogdanovich was meant to direct. Just successful with the last picture show, but I cannot imagine anyone else aside from Sam Peckinpah directing this. So there's that. And Sexy Beast, which we mentioned, and I think
00:49:36
Speaker
any number of the movies that we've seen in here. I don't think we've mentioned anything that's that's absolutely terrible. I think we've we've purposefully left out some of the garbage. Deliberately avoided them. We don't want to encourage people to watch movies that ... We'll waste our our time so you don't have to waste yours. There you go. That's the thing. We're we're we're filter feeders, right? We're doing it for you, dear listener. But yeah, so just kind of coming up to the end of the hour. Thank you listeners for tuning in once again. yeah One more episode for the halfway point. We're going to have a little bit of a break over the summer. Next episode. Summer break. We are going to have our catch up on all the films that have come out this year. Everything. Every single movie that's come out this year. well Promise. Yeah.
00:50:24
Speaker
ah And talking about the schedule, so this is the agenda that we have coming up is on Sunday, the 23rd of June at the Yorkshire Events Comic Con. I'll be there with Christian Nairn, who's probably better known as Hodor or Wee John Finney. which is a great name, by the way, from A Flag Only Means Death, Brian Blessed and Giancarlo Esposito. So, the first of the Breaking Bad crew in our agenda because on the 25th of June at the Hackney Picturehouse London,
00:50:59
Speaker
There's a Q and&A and a screening of Kinds of Kindness with Yorko Slanthemos and Jesse Plemons. That should be good. And on the 13th of July in Manchester, there's a Q and&A with the Ross Brothers and a screening of their film Gasoline Rainbow. I don't know if you've seen it, but I love that movie. Not yet. I think if you enjoy reservation dogs, this is very much in the same vein, set in your neck of the woods in Oregon. In fact, doing the east to west travel to get to the coast and it actually comes through your your your great city there as well in Portland. And then the wild card is on the 15th of July at the BFI IMAX. I'll be going to see Mark Kamode again. And you never know who he's going to be bringing. He usually brings three different guests.
00:51:47
Speaker
But they tend to be based around what's being released at the time. And what's being released at that time is Maxine, a violent nature, Deadpool and Wolverine, and from Nuri Bilj Salan, who you might know ah from Once Upon a Time in Anatolia. He's got a new film coming out called about dry grasses. So I would be happy if it's any of those that come out. So we'll see what comes out of that. But yeah, we'll report back and yeah, we'll go from there. Great. Well, we actually made it through that episode pretty much spot on to plan. Pretty much what we had planned. How about that? Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about a subject where the plans always go wrong. Exactly. We started off with fuck me and yeah. Fucking A. We made it. Fucking A. Yeah.
00:52:36
Speaker
Oh, and join our Facebook page, you people. Oh, yes. Do it. and Do it. Engage us there. We'll try to engage more there, too. Your parents did at their age. Come on. Come on.
00:53:24
Speaker
fell i da
00:53:33
Speaker
Oh, fuck me.
00:53:37
Speaker
two oceans