Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to OTB, the podcast that doesn't do international breaks. Yes, surprise, we said we weren't going to be back until after the Swansea game, but we thought you might like something while we're all waiting for the glorified friendlies to end.
Speaker: And this is a special pod that is partly, but not entirely, about your favourite commentator and mine, Chris Gorham. We'll be checking in with Chris on his thoughts on Norwich City's frenetic start to the season. Bet you says we're good in attack and not so good in defence. Launching a new feature with the Gorham in waiting, asking Chris a few of your questions as well as some of our own and the big one, getting him to reveal the order of his top 25 Norwich City players of the 21st century. Will Chris Gorham be in there? Keep listening to find out. If Chris isn't your thing, then firstly, take a long, hard look at yourself. But we'll also be having a catch up on the latest news emanating from the club, i.e. get a bit sad about Mo Torre. and see if any of our squad have got any international action amidst all the injuries. We've got an international standard panel for an international break.
Speaker: Firstly, it would be a bit weird after that intro if he wasn't here, really. Radio Norfolk Royalty, the voice of a fan base, world record holder for the longest on-air utterance of the word Vrancic. It is, of course, Chris Gorham. Chris. Hello, everyone. Yeah, and nice to be with you. it's is the the good thing about the international break is we haven't had Orange City game to worry about over the weekend, have we? So this Monday feels a lot more relaxed and and stress-free than the the previous ones, I would say.
Speaker: Yes, I've been wondering where that missing feeling of melancholy has gone. Yes, I think you've put your finger on it. um Of course, this isn't just a one-man show. We want to get all the crowd involved tonight, so put your hands in the air like you just under-hit a back pass and you're Kenny McLean for Zoe Morgan. Ooh!
Speaker: Hello, Steve. ah Nice to be here. And yeah, nice nice to not be dreading the forthcoming conversation. No, I think we've got a lot of positivity to to get through tonight. Yes, as as we've already established, mostly because we haven't got a game to actually talk about, although we do have a lot of injuries. So yeah, just yeah maybe put all those that positivity to one side for a moment. And finally, a man who loves nothing more than talking everything Norwich City, unless it's having to talk about Malky Mackay, it's Dan Brigham.
Speaker: Hi, Steve. ah Hi, everyone. I thought it was nice of England to step into the chasm, Norwich City chasm of attacking really well, looking great going forward and being horrendous at the back. So ah it feels like I've not missed Norwich City as much as I should have done. Yeah, but 3-2 is not four three is it? It's pathetic. Couldn't even couldn't even make it to 4-3. Cowards.
Speaker: yeah very Yeah, very disappointing. Got a long way to go before we can reach big fill levels. um Before we get on to the podcast proper, some sad news that we wanted to pause on that's coming out of the club tonight about the death of honorary life president Michael Wynne Jones at the age of 85. Alongside his wife Delia Smith, Michael joined the Norwich City Board in 1996, initially investing £2 million pounds to support the club after the departure of Robert Chase. Delia and Michael became majority shareholders two years later in 1998 and remained in overall control of the club for the next 26 years when they handed over their shares to Norfolk Holdings. In those 26 years,
Speaker: Norwich City enjoyed many moments of huge success, including six promotions and seven seasons in the Premier League. Michael continued to attain games as honorary life president and the club announced on Monday evening that he had passed away peacefully at home, surrounded by his family. and Chris, i'll I'll come to you first. You'll have had many dealings with Michael over the years, I'm sure. Just just a colossal figure in the history of our football club.
Speaker: Yeah, really sad. and And it's difficult to do justice to those best part of three decades involved at the club in in in just a short couple of sentences. But the amount of times that and under Michael Wynne-Jones and Delia's stewardship that the club was reinvented and and saved from financial ruin at at least once when they first came into the club, then again, by all accounts, when they went down into League One. and all of those different um eras under Delia and Michael, I think he'll be sadly missed. A terrific, like first and foremost, Norwich City fan. And even though there were plenty of lively debates about some of the decisions that were made and and some of the ah various directions of travel that the club went in, I think genuinely Delia and Michael always did what they felt was best for the club. It was never about them. It was always about what would... would
Speaker: take the club forward and I've spent a bit of time with him around official club events he wasn't somebody who put himself in front of the microphone that often I don't think he was particularly comfortable doing that I would much rather leave that to to Delia and and other members of the board but if you did get him off the record as I know a lot of supporters did when he was having a a crafty cigarette on Carrow Road outside the director's entrance you would get you'd be in no doubt about how he felt about things and there are some terrific stories already being shared about meetings both in in good times and bad times that Norwich City supporters shared with him. And I think that the news really does bring into the sharp context the work that's gone on at Carrow Road over the last three or four years, really, and the transition to to the Norfolk Holdings Group, as you mentioned, because clearly it had got to the point where we knew Delia Smith and Michael Wynne-Jones weren't going to be around forever. And I think now that we we've lost Michael, very sadly, it it shows how important it was that that they left the club in ah in a position where they were able to pass it on to that the people that they feel will be able to take it to the next level and will run the club in a way in in their image and and to keep that family feeling that they but that meant so much to them. So I think now that we' we've lost Michael and he'll be very sadly missed, I think it really does put what's happened in recent years and and that that transition of of ownership into into even more context as to the the timing of it really.
Speaker: Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, that's been a big part of their legacy, isn't it? Zoe, we've done tributes before to Delia and Michael when they stepped down a couple of years ago. and And at the time, there was a huge outpouring of love and affection for both of them from players, managers, staff. And that's just such a rare thing in football.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And... Chris has already mentioned sort of that family vibe and that family feeling that they always wanted for the club. And that's football at its best when the club that you support does feel like your family. And I think, you know, for the last 30 odd years, they've been and absolutely sort of at the head of that family. So,
Speaker: I was sort of quite shocked with how sad I felt when when I heard the news. But actually, when you start to interrogate, it's it's not that sad. um You know, that's such a reassuring presence um and consistent presence over the last years. And, you know, what whatever we might have thought to certain decisions along the way, i think you really can't underestimate the safety, i guess, of knowing that the people in charge of your football club want the best for it. And you you knew that above all else, that, you know, we might not have had the most, but and the most money.
Speaker: We might have appointed a few dodgy managers or chief executives along the way. um But that would have hurt them as much or more than it hurt the rest of us. And I think, you know, football can feel very unstable, especially these days. And I think,
Speaker: Yeah, that kind of stability that we had. We were so lucky for that time because you saw a lot of football clubs going sort of all over the place and um we never had that. And I think even to have sold the club now to slightly less a slightly less known entity um but still feeling that sort of level of stability sort of at least trying to run through i think you can't underestimate that either so yeah it's a it's a real loss for the football club I think
Speaker: Yeah, massively. And Dan, we've we've been talking a lot recently, we will again on this podcast about our most impactful players over that period and what they've achieved for the club. But even set against those legends, what Michael and Delia have done is is kind of unquantifiable, isn't it?
Speaker: Yes, I guess he sort of, you put him in, Michael, in the brackets of Arthur Turner, our first ever manager, or Geoffrey Watling, sort of people who've had incredible impacts on this football club off the pitch. um We were, you know, we were in a lot of trouble when Delia and Michael became majority shareholders of this football club and they steered,
Speaker: them you know from rocky outcrops into much safer, calmer territory. And that can't be sort of underestimated the amounts of perseverance and smart decision making. And when it ultimately sort of proper love for not only the football club, but for its community as well that that that takes. And Chris mentioned it, but If you think about like a majority shareholder at a football club and and for many of those seasons, a Premier League football club, happily stepping outside and just to light up a cigarette on on match day it feels like something from either the 1970s or from Ted Lasso. It just seems kind of improbable now that any like a owner of a football club there are certainly, you know,
Speaker: a Premier League Championship football club would would do that. And Michael was doing up until very, very recently. um And I would say that maybe we didn't quite know how lucky we were to have Michael at the time, but I think we probably did actually. um And I think...
Speaker: national media as well. I ah sort of realised that that set this football club apart a little bit. I saw Henry bint Winter giving a very nice tribute to Michael Wynne-Jones on social media earlier as well. So, yeah, he'll he'll be really missed. When I worked at the club, I didn't have too many dealings with him. But ah every time I ah did talk to him, he was just sort of very quiet and um Very warm, as Chris said, didn't caught the limelight whatsoever. Just a sort of real quiet giant of this football club, think.
Speaker: It's just interesting, isn't it, that the the timing of this means we are reflecting on the last three decades, pretty much, of Norwich City ownership and the the soul and the heart that's always been behind it just a few days after the the judgment into Manchester City has has come out. And two different ways that football has has gone over the last few years in that, yes, you you can chase success and trophies and throw all sorts of money at it, but how much of your soul as a football club are you prepared to to put on the line? And for Delia and Michael, that was that was never in question, was it?
Speaker: Yeah. And I would say as well, you know, he's 85 and a life well lived. He's married to Delia 50 years. fifty six years, I think 54 or 56 years, something like that. um And he got to own the football club that he loved. Like can't, and can't argue with that too much. So yeah. um Yeah. He must have, he had a good innings at least.
Speaker: He did. And a hugely popular and hugely influential figure in, in our history. And obviously all of our thoughts go out to Delia and Tom and and the rest of Michael's family.
Speaker: Right, apologies for a bit of a gear change, but we have plenty to cover on this podcast. The football may have stopped, but the football content machine keeps on rolling on. So here's our hot topic for this week.
Speaker: Hot topic.
Speaker: yeah it's It's probably more of a lukewarm topic, to be honest. It's not been any actual football topic. It doesn't have quite as good a ring to it. Chris, this is your first time on the podcast this season. It feels like a good opportunity to ask you your thoughts on it so far. of Eight games, nine points, three wins, five defeats, third best attack in the league, joint worst defence in the league. The last two league games, just in case you needed reminding, ended in four three defeats. So eight games. and what What have you made of Norwich City twenty twenty six twenty seven I really feel quite scrambled by it. um I think i when I put the microphone down at the end of the Bolton game, I think I realised I'd commentated on 19 goals in a week when you when you throw in the the Manchester City game as well. Yeah, I think we're all a bit puzzled, aren't we? I don't think I'll be able to to to add anything that hasn't already been said. i will...
Speaker: I'll be honest and say that I didn't ever really buy into the fact that Norwich would be automatic promotion contenders this season. I didn't quite see that, but I certainly felt and probably still feel that they ought to be able to improve on a ninth to place finish last season. I felt that everything was set fair to at least have a, you know a really good tilt at the the top eight, even at the top six in old money. ah to To me, the the most worrying thing, and I think that that Bolton game was always going to be pivotal. If Norwich had won it 4-3, we probably would have had a quite relaxed international break talking about a team that's full of goals heading in the right direction. The fact they lost it in front of their home supporters has raised plenty of... ah of of red flags and I think for me the biggest one is just the number of players who are not performing to the levels that we saw last season I know the whole team isn't and the results aren't as good as they were under Bigfoot at the end of last season but you look at the goalkeeper Kovacevic you look at Kellan Fisher Pella Mattson the two centre backs McConville and Cordoba and positions in the team where we thought we were sorted and and didn't have to worry too much about but that there are players there who are not performing to the levels we saw last season now I'm even though I've watched football for what feels it hundreds of years, I'll be honest, I still have never got my head around football tactics to any great extent. I still don't fully understand what's going on. So I don't know whether there is a tactical issue that needs ironing out or whether whatever tactics you you you put on the pitch and whatever Philip Climont wants to do, if players don't do their jobs and if they underperform, that then nothing's going to work. So to to me, it is that... And I'm not saying these players have been awful this season, that they haven't, but it's just they're not performing to the levels they were last season. And the fact that he has so many players, does that point to a wider problem? Or is it just...
Speaker: that last season and that incredible run in the second half of last season just took so much out of them that they're they're finding it more difficult to to go again. I know Dan with his cricket hat on will remember, i always think back to the 2005 Ashes and what a wonderful achievement that was and how the England team afterwards could never quite go again, could it? And sometimes you have this great...
Speaker: few months or this great achievement in sport and keeping Norwich up and flying up the table as they did last season was brilliant but starting from zero points and trying to go again it it just hasn't quite happened yet has it but at the same time as you say they've scored plenty of goals so maybe we are just a minor tweak or two away from it all clicking again i hope we are Looking forward to Harry Darling getting drunk ah on a peddle. Glad we weren't one of those podcasts that was getting caught up in automatic promotion. um
Speaker: Zoe, I won't ask you to dredge through that Bolton game again. I just started. like I clearly wiped it all out of my head because it's all coming back, the horrors of it. I don't know if can deal with this. It's okay. I'm going to ask you instead about Motore's dislocated shoulder. Oh, well, that's fine. Yeah, so so that's much more pleasant. um the The news is that it's a quote-unquote bad one, as though there are good ways that you can pop your shoulder of its socket. But he'll be out for months, according to Big Phil. So but obviously that's kind of horrendous luck for the club and also a player who's done nothing but score goals since he arrived here.
Speaker: ah Yeah. I mean, ah it everyone sort of falling apart as previously discussed on this podcast really compounded the Bolton game, the horrors of it. um And yet dreadful luck for Torre, especially it sort of seemed very innocuous, like, you you know, just challenging for the ball um and, and yeah, his arm falling out um of its socket. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it's very hard to sort of put a positive spin on it. But we do have Chris Goran, who's looked um looked pretty good this season, um actually, and and a lot fitter than he did at the end of last season. And Makama, who, um although has not been quite fit enough to play a whole game um in the sort of some of the cameos that he has had ah before the international break, looking excellent and a big reminder of of what a nuisance he can be. So really sad for Torre and really sad for quite how many goals we were scoring, but we're not quite at the level we were last season where, as Big Phil is constantly saying in every press conference he does, we had 12 injuries. um
Speaker: ah It's not quite that stage. We've we've got more than one fit striker and we've got Sian Nats, obviously, who can fill in there. So, um yeah, i am I am sad for him.
Speaker: i hope he recovers well. I mean, young young people mend quickly, don't they? Maybe is maybe everything will grow back super fast. um So, yeah hopefully he'll be all right but and and will be...
Speaker: up to up to speed pretty quickly after he gets back but um not ideal news was it we need to retire that number 21 shirt yeah cursed it is cursed as suppose as people are going to be queuing up to to take that it's just sort of nudging it back towards ali ahmed you can keep this I'd forgotten about your Chris Gorham bet, Dan. That's just reminded me. of good Good news for that, at least.
Speaker: That's alive and well. um ah Kenny and Kraseni out for a number of weeks, too. I mean, injuries were what you were calling for, Dan, so i guess we should be thanking you. But I suppose, you know, Zoe's kind of alluded to it. We've we've had we had this perverse situation, really, of of us performing better under Big Phil and we had fewer players to choose from. I mean, is there a chance this could weirdly work in our favour?
Speaker: ah um There is something to be said, I think, for about consistency of selection. And this could well force our hand in that as well, especially if we are to be believed that we've picked up a few other injuries on international duty as well, or ahead of going on international duty. um It's interesting sort of contrast between Torre, the sort of, you know, the the star quality, of the X Factor and Kenny McLean, the kind of, you know, seven out of 10 plugging away. um ah The difference between Liam Gallagher and whoever the basis is of Oasis these days um picking up injuries. Yeah.
Speaker: and the different impacts that will have on the on the team as well. I think ah ah certainly the three regulars on this pod, I think, have all said at some point that we think Makama is probably the more all-round striker. But you cannot deny the the aura that Torre has right now and the kind of, I can only imagine, how centre-backs react to Toure being on the pitch and with the amount of goals he's scored. So we do immediately lose that sort of X factor. Hopefully we're going to it pretty quickly if McCalmon can get up to speed as well. but
Speaker: I can't remember, I might have said this in the last part, but when it looked like Kenny might miss a few games, but it'll be very interesting to see how a Norwich City team cope without Kenny McLean for an extended period of time for the first time in nearly a decade, really. Going all the way back to sort 2018-19, it's rare that a Norwich City midfielder has had a Kenny-shaped hole in it. But...
Speaker: um but What I'm quite excited to see is hopefully sort of Jacob Wright given and being given an opportunity in that position. Maybe it will be Sam Field, maybe it will be a mixture as well. Maybe Kenny will surprise us all and come back very, very quickly, although I'm not sure older men bounce back as quickly as young men. I mean, Kenny's younger than all of us, I think. Considerably, yeah. But it is an opportunity for Jacob Rye, who looks very, very hungry, um to impress this season. So i think ah ah hopefully sort of silver linings that we do get to see maybe another sort of maybe potentially natural-born leader step into the team as well.
Speaker: i ah Yeah, I do think that Wright has got the right personality um for this team as well. um When heads were going down against Bolton... um he seemed to be the one that was continuing to try and G the team up. and I think he has got a bit like James Madison, you know, he's got that something where he's, he is very team minded and he wants, he wants the team to do well. So think, you know, if he can, um if he can try and and nail down that spot while Kenny is out, I think he's got a lot to offer mentality wise, as well as, as talent wise.
Speaker: Chris, what do you think in terms of how we're going to be looking come the Swansea game? What what would what would you do if you were Big Phil? Well, let's let's assume that that we've miss we're definitely missing Toure, Kenny and Krozeny and the rest we we just don't know about.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's a good point about Jacob Wright. I think ah he's not started a league game yet this season, has he? And he looks absolutely like he's bursting to do so. I think his greatest contribution this season too, really, a very good cameo at Middlesbrough when he scored and got an assist. And he looked like probably that was the best 45 minutes from a number 10 this season. And I wonder whether that might be his position.
Speaker: but But before that, when he was on as a late sub against Birmingham and he held the ball in the corner flag later on whilst various Birmingham defenders tried to kick the ball out from under him. And then he turned and punched his fist in the direction of the Barkley and Andy Murray style. I like that. And I think, you know, there's been a lot of talk about rotating the squad and load management and and all of that this season. But because he is...
Speaker: Basically, Kenny McLean's understudy when you write down the names on a piece of paper and McLean starts every week. He's somebody who's had to be more patient than anybody else, really. He hasn't started a league game yet. So he really ought to be chomping at the bit. And I've got no problem with him playing at all. um I think this might be his opportunity. I also think, from what we saw, particularly in the game at Manchester City, the idea of Darling Youngwer coming in at left-back for Ben Kraseni, this feels like a really harsh thing to say because I think Kraseni's played really well this season. But having seen Youngwer play against Manchester City, I did start to wonder whether we might be...
Speaker: edging towards ah the inevitability that he would become Norwich's first choice left back at some point this season. And up front, yeah, I mean, hopefully McCalm will be fit enough to start. I know Norwich have got plans to play a friendly behind closed doors during this next view this next couple of weeks because they've got so long without a game. So that, as long as they don't get any injuries in that friendly, of course, is an opportunity for McCalm to get his minutes up.
Speaker: play and and hopefully be ready to start against Swansea because Mo Torre there's the number of people who are Norwich fans who I've spoken to who are not convinced about Mo Torre as an all-round attacking option and they talk about yeah but all he does is score goals And then you realise what they've just said. And you think, yeah, there are games and there have been games this season. And I don't know, again, i'm I'm not clever enough tactically. Has that been one of the problems that Norwich have had? That they haven't really had a striker who is who they can knock the ball up to when they're under pressure, who you know is going to hang on to it. You get him in behind the defence and set him through one-on-one and there's no doubt he he'll catch the ball cleanly and and almost take the the net off the posts. But... have they been lacking somebody who who might do a bit more for the team? I guess we're about to find out, aren't we? But I wouldn't mind at some point, and this isn't the time of year for it have any more injuries, but hey who's got the hardest shot competition between Torre and McCarma would be quite something, wouldn't it? Because last season, there were times when I didn't think I'd ever seen anyone strike the ball as as cleanly as in a Norwich shirt as Jovan McCarma. But some of Torre's goals this season, my goodness, particularly the last one against Bolton, and maybe that's what made his arm pop out. He kept it so hard.
Speaker: At least his leg didn't go flying off. Yeah, he must have run through his body. thats Because as Zoe said earlier, i' I've watched that challenge back at the time and again since. And I still can't work out how, from what he did, how your your shoulder pops out. But it it obviously did.
Speaker: I Shua Tao after the Birmingham game has a claim to the most powerful shot as well. I don't know where that one came from, but that was ah a hell of a strike. I mean, I i do wonder with Makama, as we've already said, being kind of better as a hold-up player, whether that does change. and ah ah It's the same as you, Chris, kind of bluffing it on the tactics, really. Whether you then look for wingers to get in behind more and and that might suit the likes of Masaba and Brooks a little bit better. I don't know. I think it does change the way that we play fundamentally, as it will do not having Kenny there because we just don't...
Speaker: We don't have anyone like Kenny, really. So it will be interesting to see the kind of tactical switches that, who knows, we would have might have made anyway had they been there. But, yeah, things things definitely are going to change, and they probably do need to.
Speaker: And it's going to be a very young team, isn't it? It will. Without Kenny McLean in there, the average age. that the Poor old Kenny. it It takes it very much down, doesn't it? And if they have a spell, the Swans are going so well, if they have a spell in that game where it is tough and they're on the back foot for quite a long period, Who do you then look to to really get hold of things on the pitch? I think as much as he's hes good on the ball and he's an important member of the team, I think that influence... There are games where you can almost see them looking to to Kenny McLean to guide them through it. So I think that is ah that's as big a loss as anything, really.
Speaker: He does seem to spend a lot of games telling Misalba where to stand as well. Someone's going to need to start doing that instead of him. yeah I don't know if it's working, though. So maybe maybe it needs a different voice. I think, ah yeah, other than Stacey and Field, there's nobody likely to start that's, and those two may not, who's over the age of 28. So you're right, it it will be ah young a young team. and We'll see. Maybe that's exactly what we need. um If you would like to read more about the OTB hopes, fears and dreams for the season at this international break, so you've got two weeks to go before our next game, pop over to our sub stack because Ryan, Zoe, Dan and I have contributed to a piece about where it's all gone right and more pertinently wrong so far. It's actually another set of predictions to keep the receipts so on if nothing else. And if you want to hear more of us, and some people do, then we are producing bonus content for our Patreon subscribers. Just head over there and search OTB Norwich City ah if you want to have access for as little as £2 a month.
Speaker: Now, on OTB, we regularly appeal to the younger generation, what with all our in-depth chats about K-pop demon hunters, Olivia Rodrigo and Le Boo Booz. So as part of our new feature, we've asked for the young people to give something back to us for a change. Welcome to Kids Gorham.
Speaker: where we listen to a commentary clip of a Norwich City goal from days gone by and see if our panel can guess which goal it was. The catch is that the commentary has been redone by a child, page unspecified, or Kid Gorham. Is it one of those features where we come up with a name first and retrofit a concept to it?
Speaker: I don't know. You'll have to ask if it was his idea. But, of course, we do have a jingle for it, and here it is.
Speaker: go.
Speaker: at those Haribo adverts when they get kids playing adults. Have you ever thought about taking helium before you go on? Our mini man on the mic is an eight-year-old Norwich City fan and first ever kid Gorham, Jasper. Now, Jasper has provided a snippet of truly excellent commentary to a Norwich City goal.
Speaker: All you have to do is guess which one. And hopefully, obviously we have the the actual Chris Gorham here to help us decipher the answer. um I'm going to play the audio to you guys, and I will give you 20 seconds of thinking time, thereabouts. to try and work out which goal it is and who it was against and then you can all provide me with your answer how does that sound hard let's go do I just need to go and get some more helium on board before this yes if you wouldn't mind um but assuming well let's let's try it out we're we're all we're learning at the same time as you listeners and we'll see how this goes so i'm going to play you the clip now if you want again you can always ask but here it is for the first time
Speaker: It's up and it's a poor header. And now it's forward and lovely backheel. And through, he scores. And he runs to celebrate in front of the home fans.
Speaker: And in fact, he tantalises the home fans. And Norwich City who take a 2-1 lead just before halftime. Okay, so a few clues in there. um And ah as I did tell the guys before, but it's it's quite a recent goal, I would say. and Some people, obviously the listeners can't see this, but some people looking more confident than others, I would say, on the call right now. and While you're working that out, I will say a big thank to Jasper for the excellent work on the mic. and of Well done, Jasper. great use of the word tantalizing um if you listening or your children grandchildren nieces nephews would like to send in your kids gorums uh then email your audio clip to on the ball pod 1902 at gmail.com if it's suitable then we will definitely use it for a future edition uh not everyone looks ready with an answer here I'm going to say, oh let's go in order of who looks the most confident. I'm going say Chris. Obviously, the two of Dan and Zoe, you may not copy Chris's answer, but if you don't have one, then I think it's time to declare it. That's the slight flaw in this game, I think.
Speaker: i I'm pretty sure Jasper's done us proud there for a couple of reasons. One was the tantalising of the home fans. And the other was the back heel and the build-up, which I think was from Anis Ben Slimani. And then it was Torre scoring at Sheffield United the other week when he very much tantalised Bramall Lane. And at at some point, a Sheffield United fan put a curse on that right shoulder of his. And that's what must have happened. I'm pretty sure that's the goal we're talking about.
Speaker: and Well, again, a slight flaw because Dan and Zoe haven't had the chance to guess yet. But if they wanted to guess anything else after that, then they would be incredibly foolish because that is all the details are correct. And that is that is the goal that Jasper was describing. So well done, Chris. ah You have won the first ever. Well done. Does Jasper fancy a trip to Swansea in a couple of Saturdays times, is the question? Are you saying you don't? i'm I'm actually not going to Swansea. yeah Oh, OK. I won't go into it. I've got to family commitments of have come up, so I won't be able to make the trip, unfortunately. oh Well, I say unfortunately at this point. Let's see how I feel afterwards. yet Well, isn't it one of the longest away trips of the season? Family reasons. Yes, don't know. I'd love to be there. actually always enjoy going to Swansea, but that it ah it's a long season, so but I'll be back on the mic for whatever the game is after that. think Southampton, isn't it, at home? but
Speaker: believe it is. yeah That will definitely be the game that we win for three. but let's let yes Yes, let's hope so. So yes, if Jasper wants to go to Swansea, that there is a spare seat going at this point. I feel like i was ah it was a perfect illustration of the the hold that Anis Ben Slomani's got over me because I could remember him doing the back heel, but I could not remember what came next. So I was going to guess that it was Tori, but could not remember the goal. All I could remember was going, oh yeah, about Samani's back heel because he he is, you know, um player best player of the championship, obviously. It's just not enough people understand him. That's the problem. So, yeah, I'd forgotten. I'd forgotten the game. Dan? I can exclusively reveal that I circled backheel, did a line, wrote Slomani question mark, and then did another line and wrote Toure double question mark. So I was also more confident that it would have been Slomani. But I was thinking of that, although i don't think it was a backheel, I was thinking of the...
Speaker: um outrageous assist he got in the FA Cup last season against West Brom yeah which was probably the the peak of Slomani's magic and he maybe hasn't quite returned to those heights since so I was not only the wrong goal but the wrong season as well well well let's let let's let let's bring a positive into this yeah because we we've been a bit downbeat on Norwich so far this season had we have done this same quiz at this time last year and you said it's been a recent goal would have been quite easy wouldn't I wouldn't have play you the commentary, I don't think.
Speaker: Yes, that is that is a very good point. We probably won't have any from the first 10 games of 2025-26 season. um So, yes, apologies to Dan and Zoe for not giving them the chance to answer. i Trust me, for anyone listening, if you could see their faces while i while we were waiting, and you you would not have wanted to listen to the pause. But yeah, you were close. But but I think Chris chris took it. um And we will have more kids' Gorums later in the season. um I won't. mean, I can play can't play it again.
Speaker: It's quite long. Let's let's go straight on. Because we thought we would take the opportunity while he's here to grill Chris, but in a much more sort of friendly one show type way than ah a Frost Nixon type job. um So we've got ah a few questions from us, a few from our listeners. i thought I would just kind of do a nice segue, Chris, by um just asking you first off how you got into commentary um and for any any budding ah kid gorems out there, like what your tips or or recommendations would be. Yeah, I think I've i've done a couple of these, I suppose for a better phrase, careers talks at at places like Norwich City College. And I'm afraid one of those, it's it's like when you realise how much younger the Norwich City players are than you now, because you talk about how you got into the media. And while you're saying it, you realise that it is of no use to people are trying to get into the media these days, because i i always loved football growing up, always loved Norwich City, listened to a lot of football on the radio because like,
Speaker: and Pretty much every family I knew when I was growing up, we didn't have Sky. So if you wanted to follow top flight football, you had to listen to it on the radio. And I think that probably sparked something. And I went in that the way into radio late 90s, we're talking just into the 2000s was you just did you watch quite a lot for nothing. I did voluntary work at hospital radio in Norwich for a while to get some experience. I worked behind the scenes at Radio Norfolk on the Saturday sports show for free for a while, answering the phones, ringing around the local football grounds when the days before you could get scores and on the internet. And then hung around long enough until somebody gave me a chance to actually go on the mic and then um got the chance to to stand in for Roy Waller a couple of times when when he wasn't available to to do games on a Saturday. And I love working with Roy and it's quite surreal having having grown up listening to him. So that was the way I got in, I think for for Jasper or any other. youngsters who want to get into it, it's probably very different now because you don't have to wait for ah your your local BBC station to give you a chance. If you want to start broadcasting about football,
Speaker: look at this, we're doing it now, aren't we? You can start your own podcast up, you can start your own YouTube channel, you can commentate on Norwich City, you can commentate on your own games of, was going to say FIFA, but it's not called that anymore, is it? Come Grandad, get with the times. And then you can just start yourself. you This is the great thing about now, and you don't have to wait for somebody else to say you're allowed to commentate now. you You can just start doing it. And I think...
Speaker: one If there are people who want to do it for for a living, I think there's no substitute for experience. And there are probably loads of non-league football teams, junior football teams, women's football teams who would love to have a social media presence, but maybe don't have the expertise or the time to do it. So if you're prepared to put a bid into it and and not necessarily get financially rewarded, it's a great place to start, I think. Go to a a football club near you, offer to start doing some social media for them, commentating on their games, And you will only improve the more you do it. So, yeah, I think the world has changed a lot since I was looking to get into it and and probably the way into it has changed. But to me, that's where a lot of people come to us now at the BBC. They've got all this experience on on social media and online.
Speaker: are you ah Are you afraid that when you finally hang up your microphone aged 85, next Chris Gorham will be an AI robot? Well, this it may not be when I'm 85. I mean, that may not be too far around the corner. We just don't know, do we? I think, yeah, it's...
Speaker: I mean, yes in the the years that I've been doing it, it's changed so much. i I used to have to, that the post-match interviews used to be a real rigmarole. You'd go down to the side of the pitch, you'd record whoever the manager was at the time. And I think the first one I dealt with commentary-wise properly was Nigel Worthington. You'd have to record the interview on probably mini disc, I think it was then.
Speaker: And you'd then have to run up and plug it in and play press play on it and play it out on the radio in real time. Whereas now, I just have an iPhone, record the interview on the iPhone, couple of touches of the button and buttons, and it just drops into the yeah into the computer back at the forum in in the studio. It's amazing. So, yeah, things have moved on so much. You may well be right. We could be having um AI bots and all sorts of others and playing the game and probably commentating on it next and podcasting about it. Can I just say that although the world has moved on and technology has, I still think there's nothing in sport quite as special as a great radio commentary. And so I live in Yorkshire, as does Zoe's after every home game, drive back to Yorkshire and having BBC Radio 5 or John Murray on commentary is there is still something really, really special ah about that, I think, in a way that TV doesn't quite have that same sort of
Speaker: um evocative nature, I guess, because they're not describing to the same extent of what's happening on the pitch as a radio commentator as some of the greatest commentaries, and obviously I include yours in this, Chris, are radio commentaries and and will remain so, I think.
Speaker: I think that's nice of you to say, Dan. Thanks. Yeah, I'm the same as you. When I'm driving back from a game on a Saturday, i will always listen to to to the the Five Live commentary, and it usually is John Murray, and I i think he's terrific at at not just telling you what's happening on the pitch and what the score is, which is obviously the most important thing as a commentator, but it's everything that's going on around the game as well. There was one of the European games he did last year, I think alongside Chris Sutton. well I think it was Atletico Madrid or somewhere like that, where he was writing in amongst some very vociferous fans and he ended up getting struck on the back of the head by a toilet roll that somebody had thrown. There's a brilliant piece of commentary of him describing that moment and it's it's just great. Yeah, I i completely agree. I'm biased, so I would say it, but yes, I think you're right.
Speaker: And he always does a little shout out for fans that are travelling home from games, which always makes you feel a bit better. Yes, he always punched the air. Yes, just for me, John. He's great. He is the best, I think, John Murray. I should say, Zoe and I saw John Murray in a pub in York during the summer and we're both, just by him being heroes to both of us, we're too chicken to go up to thank him for all of us. He's so starstruck. He's so starstruck. My John Murray story is that I once bumped into him unexpectedly outside the Forum in the centre of Norwich one morning. And it turned out that he had... I know if this is still the case. And I had met him a couple times through being at games and was confident enough to go up to him and say... in the true Norfolk welcome what are you doing here then and he's he had at that point I don't know he still does but at that time he was visiting family in as he so wonderfully put it was visiting family in Munsley he said he's got family in Munsley so I don't know I haven't seen him for a so don't know whether he still has but it would be nice to think there are there's a Norfolk link in everybody if you look if you look deeply Yeah, I think that's probably right. still quite a long way from Munsley, though, just because everywhere in Norfolk is far away from everywhere else. I'll ask a few of the questions that our listeners have sent over. A couple about players' names. Most satisfying player name to scream on comms, asks Teague.
Speaker: Chris Goran, of course. don't know. never thought I'd get the chance to almost commentate on myself scoring for Norwich City. or It will never get closer than that, will it? So, yeah, that's that's an easy one for me, personally. Did you do that as a kid in the in the like back garden, and kicking a ball? Chris Coram! I did, but it was all never went in. of the reasons neverys one of the reasons i decided what I wanted to do quite early and be a football commentator rather than a player is that any dreams of being a professional footballer were well out of the window way before I was Jasper's age who we heard from earlier on I've never been any good at it
Speaker: Well, if any of those commentaries from your early days have been recorded, then we'll stick that. We'll re-dub that intro, so we won't need to change it. Jonathan has asked, have Norwich ever signed a player where you've had to practice their name number of times to get it right on commentary?
Speaker: Yeah, I think in in recent years, quite a few, because some of the the players that Norwich have had, particularly the the signings in in recent years that have been from more obscure European leagues, South American leagues as well, you you look at them and you think, well, where do we start with this one? But it's amazing how quickly these these names become second nature, isn't it? um but Big Vlad, as we call him, for for for for ease. and That was an interesting one, because...
Speaker: These days, football clubs, Norwich City included, are aware that everybody wants to be able to get these things right and say the names properly. And they, handily, Norwich City put out a guide of how to say the players' names. And when Big Vlad signed, they very confidently told us it was Kovacevic and then produced a video of him saying it, during which he said Kovacevic. So sometimes you have to check two or three times. But yeah, I think it's that for me, that was the one I was probably most confused about. Actually, one that when Norwich first, if you haven't ever heard a name said out loud, sometimes that is the problem. And I think for me, the one I was on holiday at the time and saw on social media that Norwich had signed Ben Crissine.
Speaker: christine And i I did not know where to start with that name because I'd never heard anyone say it. So that was one that I, you know, we're we're talking about ah an English footballer here in in England under 21 international. And that was probably the one, because I'd never heard anyone say it, that I really did not know where to start with and until somebody actually spelt it out for me properly.
Speaker: Well, nor do most of the Sky commentators now. red and He is probably the most mispronounced. Is he? Because there's at least three or four different versions flying around. Krizeen is creeping back in. Krizeen. Krizeen, yeah, yeah. Krizeen, just Krizeen. Yeah. ah So, yeah. you they lot I mean, I've i always...
Speaker: I've got to be careful because i'm sure people will find all sorts that I've mangled over the years, but it's it's much better now. Most clubs now do provide a guide online or will tell you how to say player's name, but it hasn't always been the case. So there are a few that I've definitely got very badly wrong over the years. Where do you stand on the sort of adding local pronunciation, like, you know, the James Rodriguez stroke, James Rodriguez, the Clement or Clement? Yeah, I think it's it's really, i think the one that that you're you're thinking of there, it's the Bruno Fernandes, isn't it?
Speaker: Which is a lot of, that's what a lot of people, that's probably if you're doing it, properly and and saying his name as as he would say it himself, then you would call him Bruno Fernandes. But because everybody else calls him Bruno Fernandes, then it's you're the one that ends up sounding a bit silly. So I think there's probably a balance to be struck because it's quite interesting. You have these European games in particular where commentators will try really hard to give... everybody, the the proper pronunciation, the the local pronunciation, and then they say Paris Saint-Germain and Bayern Munich. They don't say Bayern München and Paris, do they? So I think in the end, a lot a lot of players end up just...
Speaker: just that their names become anglicised in a certain way or or there's an accepted pronunciation going forward and and some players most players actually don't mind how you say their names I always like to check when I get the chance one that I did check quite early on was is it McLean or McLean with Kenny McLean and he was very adamant which one it was other players say well I don't mind and I think the one that I'm sure Dan you were working at the club at the time you'll remember was when we all found out that it wasn't Max Ahrens after he played the best part of the games for the first team suddenly ah It came out that we'd all been saying it wrong and we should have been saying Aaron's all this time. But it was, think it was his cousin. Is it well his cousin's a player? Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, Rolando. And he was the one who actually said, look, we're fed up with this. My family are fed up with you all getting our names wrong. And we checked the next time we got the chance with with Max, and he said, yeah, it is actually Aaron's, but I'm not bothered. So it's that it's often, as is so often the case in life, it's a bit like, you know, those injuries that always are worse when the challenges are more innocuous. It's always the names that you don't worry about, the ones that you think, well, don't that's clearly Max Aaron's, the ones that you you don't even think about getting wrong. are the ones I mean, I always thought it was Adam Ida until suddenly scored a hatchery against Preston and we found that he was Adam Ida.
Speaker: So that was one that I didn't even second guess until somebody said, oh, you know, you're getting that wrong, don't you? So when you find out you've been saying Sam Field wrong all this time, that's when you're going question everything you ever knew.
Speaker: just Just a ah couple more, Chris. um Casper has asked, do you enjoy having different co-commentators every week and does it help to keep the insight fresh? Yeah, it does. i mean, it's a good job I do enjoy it because it's kind of down to me to sort it out. One of the jobs I have is to to get in touch with the summarizers and book them in each week. And I really like it because I think as much as I love covering Norwich City every week, and I know my colleagues, Phil and Rob, we love covering Norwich City every week. When you are watching the same team all the time, as I'm sure you found, that it's not easy to come up with ah a hot take and a new angle every single week. Oh, definitely. Yeah. But those seasons when it it drifts a little bit and it ends up a bit mid-table. So having various different sets of eyes running the rule over the team, I think is great. And one of the things we've done over the years, partly to keep the the expenses down and keep the BBC bosses happy, is we've tended to use players who are based around the country and maybe closer to the away grounds. But it means you get to keep in touch with a lot more players
Speaker: Norwich City history, a lot of players who've been at the club and and and anyone who's played for Norwich still feels a really big part of it. It was great to catch up with Michael Nelson recently Middlesbrough. We had Jordan Rhodes did the Manchester City game with us. And these are people who are not available to do games all the time, but just having them chip in now and again and see a game through their eyes, i I really enjoy it. Yeah, I love the the variety.
Speaker: Yeah, i love that lineage of players who you've just kind of forgotten about and then they pop up again. and i have Right, so they've retired and now they're doing the the punditry circuit. yeah And it's so it's interesting because it's um it's quite, if if you tick off all the criteria that we need for somebody to to do a commentary, they have to be near enough of ground to do it.
Speaker: A, B, they have to want to do it. C, they have to be available and not still playing or involved with another club. And also that we're not Sky Sports. We are not paying these people life-changing amounts of money to to come and do the job. So there has to be a bit of want to do it as well. We do pay them, but it's it's not a massive amount of money. So...
Speaker: In the end, that that ticks off quite a few players. And sometimes you have players who may not have played a lot for Norwich City and may not be great Norwich City names. I'll i'll talk about Jay Wilson, for example, who is not only played 20-odd games for Norwich, I think, but is still involved with football now. And that's something I like to do is keep... because football has changed a lot. I'd always like to have players who've got, or former players who've got a stake in the game a little bit because they, you want to try and keep away from this. Well, in my day, and we just used to kick each other and and get on with it. You want to try and get away from that if you can. But I think he's terrific. He's such a good reader of a game, understands ah modern football tactics. And he's one of the ones I really enjoy working with. and But at the same time, we've also had
Speaker: you know Darren Eady, Grant Holt have had some absolute club legends. Goss, Seahawks, they've all done it over the years. And and ah yeah, I love the variety. Last one um from Nick. Which player and manager would Chris be most scared or apprehensive of going into a post-match interview with after a loss? i imagine a death stare from Lambert would be pretty terrifying.
Speaker: but Yeah, I was quite lucky with Lambert because that didn't happen very often, did it? we In the time that he was there. Yeah, the post-match interviews, it's it's a really strange part of the job because i spend a lot of time...
Speaker: all of the time that's available, preparing for commentary and getting that bit right and doing homework on players and making sure you've got your facts and figures right and you know what you're talking about. But they then you do this commentary and you're a bit frazzled by the end of it and you go down the side of the pitch and suddenly you're presented with ah a player and a manager who've just gone through whatever they've gone through and are quite often really frustrated because it hasn't gone their way and you've suddenly got to find a tactful way of of getting them to speak. And um I was speaking to somebody who works at the club recently and and they said that everybody at the club loves Philippe Clement. They do anything for him. They really love him, but they wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him. And I've had a couple of Philippe Clement glares over the last few months. So that could get interesting if form doesn't pick up. But yes, Paul Lambert, yet you wouldn't mess with him. I saw, thankfully, I was always just about okay, but I certainly saw two or three other reporters very much get on the wrong side of Paul Lambert. And that was an experience that I don't think they'd care to repeat. Player-wise,
Speaker: I don't know, that's really interesting. um There are players like, again, Wes Houlihan, absolutely fantastic footballer, but hated being front of the microphone and just never wanted to do it. Even if he scored a hat-trick, he didn't want to come out and and speak. And I think they're the ones, the ones where you know you're going to two or three word answers. And as an interviewer, you've got to have the next question lined up straight away. Because ideally, when you ask a question, you want somebody to...
Speaker: answer the question but take it as a bit of a cue to talk about what they want to talk about as well and and turn it into a conversation that the hardest ones especially when you've been commentating for 90 minutes are the ones that don't talk very much and you just have to keep coming up with a with another question for so yeah um i think it's as long as people are talking and you've got them talking then i'd much rather that than somebody who was who was very very short but then it's not everyone's comfort is it being being on the microphone so i think we do ask a lot of these these footballers straight after a game too I'd imagine, Chris, that worse than having a sort of a glare from Lambert was maybe having to interview a manager when it's clear it's going wrong and they might not be at the club for much longer. Because that gets quite sort of on a human level. That's quite sort of sad and awkward, isn't it? Like Liam Manning last season, for example. You're right. And and you you've been there as well, Dan. And we all get an idea of when things are reaching the the natural end. And and with Liam Manning, it it felt like it.
Speaker: I think with Dean Smith as well, it got to the point where he was saying he didn't want to manage games at Carrow Road, wasn't he? And he was much happier managing away. You think, well, once we got to this point, it it really can't go on. But I think it's interesting. Most...
Speaker: You don't really have to. People always think it's you've got to be a bit Jeremy Paxman and and going two-footed on these managers. But I don't think you do because I think most of them are sensible enough to know that results do speak for themselves in football and you're not you're not going to dress it up if they've they've played badly. And most managers don't expect you to either. and And quite often by the time it's got to that point, you can at times hear the protests outside the ground when it got really bad last season. So that that almost speaks for itself. So, yeah, it's never nice. I suppose on a personal level, the one that was most difficult was when it started to go a bit wrong for Neil Adams because and Brian Gunn as well, to to a slightly lesser extent. But Neil, I'd spent a good few years travelling country with, actually working with and and and commentating. So I really had an idea of what it meant to him and and what he put into it.
Speaker: And I suppose that's given me a bit of an insight into what all managers are going through, because it it wasn't nice to have to ask him difficult questions. Although on the plus side, he had been on the other side of the the microphone, so he knew what was coming and knew how to handle it. So I think it's on the odd occasion, you've already got a bit of a working relationship with somebody who then takes on the manager's job. And you're thinking,
Speaker: Oh, don't do it. I don't want to catch that point where we've we've got to have those difficult discussions because unfortunately, particularly in this day and age, the one thing you know, ah but the easiest thing to do when whenever a football club appoints a manager is just to take against them straight away because you'll be right eventually, won't you? get no manager no No manager lasts for for but for very long now, do they?
Speaker: Well, let's hope, for for the love of God, that you don't have to do any of those awkward interviews for the foreseeable. I really hope so. I really, really hope so. just Just have some nice interviews about wins for the next few weeks. and Thank you very much, Chris. Thank for answering all the questions. Your work here is not completely done because we're going to ask you now to pronounce 25 more names. the It's the Canary Countdown.
Speaker: We really are playing all your heads, Ty. As anyone who has been listening to the pod this season will know, we are counting down to our greatest canary this century. We're up to number 20, but the identity of the final 19 is still to go. we will not be revealing any of those tonight, and we're still some way from knowing who number one is going to be. And as yet, no one has publicly revealed the identity of their choices from one to 25 until today, when on this Chris Gorham special podcast, we're going to be getting the full countdown from... Zoe! No, not really. It'll be Chris. and So Chris, just in case you're not up to speed with where we're at so far, and this will have no bearing on what you've said, but just for for information and for those who haven't been following up to now. Number 25, Cameron Jerome. 24 is Borja Sainz. 23, Dion Dublin. Number 22, John Ruddy. 21, Mario Vrancic. And number 20, Malky Mackay. ah
Speaker: Even in a three week international break podcast, I think asking you to talk us through 25 players might be a bit too much. um But if you could maybe rattle through the names 25 to six first, and then we'll we can do a little bit more on your on your top five. So um ah over to you. Well, I've not put Kvist scoring at number one, even though you probably thought I would do. I'm afraid he's not made the top 25. I'm very much in touch with public opinion. Cameron Jerome was my number 25.
Speaker: um But the rest of it is different. And I'll preface this by saying that last time I was on the podcast, and when I was filling in my top 25, I was aware of this. I i remember talking, you had the feature about Brad Hills to die on, do you remember? And I talked a lot about how I don't think goalkeepers get enough respect. So I remembered that conversation that we'd had. And I thought, in case they invite me back on and they and they've got the clip, I'd better put some goalkeepers in there. So yeah this looking at it, this might be goalkeeper heavy, but i'm I'm happy to justify the choices. thats So Jerome, 25.
Speaker: Redmond, 24. Fraser Forster, 23. Gary Holt, 22. Tim Krul, 21. I've got Craig Fleming at 20. Rob Earnshaw at 19. I've got John Ruddy at 18. Robert Green at 17.
Speaker: Vranchich at 16. Adam Drury at 15. Dion Dublin is my number 14. Russell Martin at 13, Kenny McLean at 12, Johnny Howson at 11, and now into the top 10. You me to go as far as number six? So Bradley Johnson, 10, Ewan Roberts, 9, which feels right, doesn't it, number nine? Alex Tetti is my number eight, Dean Ashton's my number seven, and James Madison is my number six.
Speaker: So any of those controversial? I mean, I don't want know i know nobody wants to talk about what what you've got in yours, but do I need to justify any of those? I mean, I think given that last season we did ah our use useless useful or useless alumni feature, and I think Dan may have come down on the side of useless for your number 19, Robert Earnshaw. I think we can probably safely say that he's not in there. I didn't find any of that massively controversial, but Ernie, Dan? Well, Earnshaw, I quickly jotted them down, and Earnshaw is the one i've only one I put an arrow next to. Really? Okay. I'll I will justify Earnshaw. Please justify this, Chris. Yeah, because I think he was the motory of his day. What did he do apart from score goals? And I think had Rob Earnshaw played for Norwich City ah a generation or two later or a generation or two earlier in a successful team,
Speaker: He would have massive Norwich City hero. I think he happened to choose the the time to come to Norwich City when it was all a bit Peter Grahn and it wasn't going very well. And yeah, he was scoring goals, but we weren't winning most weeks. And so I think his contribution, largely forgotten, but I i really liked him. And I think he was one of those strikers who...
Speaker: absolutely guaranteed goals so yeah he he was one that when I was going through the list I thought yeah I'm one of those more underrated Norwich players I think because you I thought he was a terrific striker and and a player who went on to to perform ah very well for other clubs as well so I've always been a big Ernie fan And I think he got and ah quite a bad injury at one point, didn't he Unless I'm imagining it. And I i don't think we had Joe von McCarma waiting in the wings in that team to come and and replace him. her but i like that The one I thought you might pick out, and I don't know whether, and again, you won't reveal whether he's in there, but I don't think he will be. it' Is Fraser Forster?
Speaker: Yeah, well, I was pleased that I was pleased you had Fraser Forster in there because, ah yeah, I was I was a big Fraser Forster person ah back in the day. um And yeah, it's quite impressive for a player to make such a big impact when they're only here for a season and and on loan. um But yeah, i he was he did he pulled off one of the best saves I think I've ever seen live and at Carlisle in League One.
Speaker: um It was a very misty day, ah sort of quite ethereal day up in the sort of middle of nowhere in Carlisle. and And you just saw, you know, it looked like a certain goal and you just saw this sort of giant hand appear from nowhere ah to to save the ball. um So yeah, it was nice to it was nice to hear that his name was in your pocket. I've ruined this already as ah as a pub quiz question, but you mentioned the League One season, Wes Houlihan, Chris Martin, and Grant Holt. But the Norwich City Players Player of the Year that season, voted for by the team, was Fraser Forster.
Speaker: OK, yeah. I i once once saw him having dinner in Yellows as well, and one of the broadest backs, I've ever seen. There was a mad game in the Europa League a couple of seasons ago, where Tottenham were playing Galatasaray, and he was playing for Tottenham at the time, and Fraser Forster, Gabriel Sarra, and James Madison were all on the pitch at the same time. That's amazing. It just felt impossible. It felt like it fell up watching Jimmy Greaves and Grant Holt on the pitch at the same time. he thought how how How are these careers all still going on at the same time? um um I've picked up on one other thing. Obviously, there may be more centre-backs in your top five. We'll find out soon. But currently, you've only got one...
Speaker: person who played their entire career at centre-back you've got Russell Martin obviously played at right back as well and Dion Dublin who played up front as well but so far only Craig Fleming but maybe maybe you have picked up on my unconscious bias there maybe I am without realising it anti-centre-back and I didn't realise it you should love this current Norwich City team yeah We've been very anti-Sentermack all season. Right, let's get into ah the nuts and bolts of the top five then. yeah I'm going to set this up with a slightly elongated drum roll.
Speaker: um Is that for each position? Can do drum roll for each position? or just We'll see let's how annoying gets. Straight in at number five, Emi Buendia.
Speaker: Yeah, OK. So, um I mean, Emi, I would say, one of our most popular players. Was it difficult? Was it was there a thought you might put him higher or lower? then There was. what What counts against him, and I'm talking about a negative here for a player who I've got in the top five, is the Premier League season he did play for Norwich, one goal after we'd already gone down.
Speaker: That's when you that's when you you were re we were hoping for more, weren't we? So that if I'm marking him down... That's why he's not ah that's why he's not top four material. Okay, well, that seems fair enough. Okay, so let's find out. I'll tell you what, who is top four material without the drum roll? Without the drum roll, okay. Number four, Timu Pukki, baby, to give me his full name. um Yeah, Pukki at four.
Speaker: So sneaks in ahead of Buendia. Sneaks in ahead of Buendia. It's nice that they're together. Yes, they've got to be, haven't they? Yeah, they've got to be. As have the next two, because I've gone number three, Wes Houlihan,
Speaker: and number two, Grant Holt. Interesting. So in both instances, because I think as we've established, they kind of come as a pair. You've gone for the striker slightly higher than the the creative player behind them. And I think, again, I've not looked at this any great detail since I did the that this list, but I think what's coming through here is that If you ask me about great Norwich City teams or my favourite spells, particularly commentating on Norwich City, I would put the Paul Lambert era, League One to mid-table in the Premier League, slightly ahead of the Daniel Farker era. I enjoyed the Lambert era slightly more. I thought it was ah it was better. Not that that's to do down the Daniel Farker era. So that's probably why Houlihan and Holt are ahead of the other two.
Speaker: and the And the good times lasted longer, I suppose. in Yeah, they did. Yeah, they did. So that that was that's how I justify that. So any guesses on number one? if I think that by process of elimination. What do you think then? Probably Steve Morrison. I'll tell you, it's not a centre-back.
Speaker: Jay Wilson? Not Jay Wilson, sadly. It is is's Huck's, isn't it? It's Darren Huckabee. Hands down. I found it actually, when I thought about it, I actually found it quite easy to put him top of the list just because, again,
Speaker: pretty recency bias to one side because all the players I've mentioned have have done great things for the club. But in terms of an impact, in terms of a player who actually took your breath away and who looked like something that was completely different planet to what we'd seen in in recent years at that time, someone who lifted the entire stadium,
Speaker: I don't think I've ever seen a player have that ah amount of influence on Carrow Road that quickly. And, you know, this was 2003, 2004, wasn't it? So this was a time before the social media and and the internet had really taken off. And yet I remember people getting in touch to try and have fundraisers among supporters to sign him on on a permanent basis when it yeah when it when it looked like he was he was going to go.
Speaker: Again, quite poignant today. and We started talking about Michael Wynne-Jones and we all remember that wonderful Boxing Day of him bit coming on the pitcher at half-time, was it, or before the game? can't remember now, when Norwich had actually signed him with with Delia and and Michael Wynne-Jones and it felt like such a huge moment. And yeah jet propelled Norwich up to up to the Premier League from there. So, yeah, in terms of the... He didn't play for Norwich at his best for as long as a lot of the players on my list. But in terms of the influence he had at the time, I don't think I've seen anything quite like it in my time watching Norwich City.
Speaker: And I suppose you mentioned Buundia and Pukki and Wes and Holti sort of coming in pairs there. And that Farker and Lambert era, if you think of a player that stood out, it's quite difficult because there were lots of really great, exciting players, whereas maybe with respect to all of his excellent teammates at the time, Akebi probably really was that one who was slightly ahead of and above everyone else in that era. Yeah, and I think when you, I'm sure everyone's approached this top 25 in the same way. There are some that you feel you've got to get in there because you liked them. There are some that you you feel they've got to be in there just for moments, Vrancic being the one that would feel wrong not to have him. And there are others like an Adam Drury or Craig Fleming, who I've got in almost as a bit of a lifetime achievement award. If you said to me,
Speaker: describe but your best Adam Drury moment or Craig Fleming moment, that would be more difficult. But they were just there for so long, such part of the the furniture that you you just think, yeah, that they had to be in there. But I think for Huckabee, it was just that that all-round and performance. On Adam Drury, I thought, because again, he's another one I didn't know whether you might question. here I looked up his, again, you're talking about players who bridged a long time in their career. He he made his debut for Norwich City on the same pitch as Daryl Such.
Speaker: And his last game, he was on the same pitch as Luis Suarez. Now again, you've got somebody who played against Bayern Munich in 1993 as his teammate, and you finish with Luis Suarez the other side. I just think that's, you know, to play for Norwich City across that for that long, that's why he was on. But no, Darren Huckabee, top of the top of the shop for me.
Speaker: One of the greatest players in Premier League history and Luis Suarez. LAUGHTER Did you have Johnny Henson? Yeah, he was there. Yeah, Johnny Henson was there. What number was he? Number 11.
Speaker: But you had Bradley Johnson higher than Johnny Henson. place higher. One place higher. you know what? If I sat and did the list tomorrow, that might be the other way. we gowin I also noted that you said you wanted to put respect on goalkeepers' names, but you've got four of them in there, but I think the highest is 17th. Is that right? yeah Yeah. Is that respect? That's true. But there's four. You need to have certain... I'd say four four in the top 25. I'd be surprised if many have gone to and above that.
Speaker: and Yeah, well, Ryan's not on. He might have put about 12 in. I also noticed that you didn't have Max Aaron slash Aaron, and I didn't know if that was so vindictive because of the name change. Yes, now these are all the easiest names to say as well, you have noticed.
Speaker: Yes. and Yes. Well, everyone's got their own reason. and and Well, thank you very much, Chris. um And obviously Dan and Zoe have remained tight lipped and we'll go through ours. But thank you for being the first person to take us through your list. And you'll have to wait and see and see how close you were to the general public um of Norwich City fans. No doubt there'll be one when this list comes out that I'll think, oh yeah, I forgot all about him. But you'll you'll have to take that as ah as a bit of a caveat at this point.
Speaker: There may well be. As long as you don't completely forget about players while you're doing your commentary. Thank you very much. right That was Canary Countdown.
Speaker: mean, i will turn that down in the edit, but it was a bit like the PA a system before it came up on the road for Right, well, any we have no football to talk about, so I don't know if there is any other business from anyone. The only thing that I noticed from the international break was when shea charles scored the winner for northern ireland there was rory mcconville celebrating up there with him was just so proud he he loves being in the melee um for a celebration doesn't he and i think he's probably deserved a bit of a break after the last few weeks he's had um i've got i've got one last question for chris uh that i didn't
Speaker: Didn't get to ask you during our Q&A session. um I was just going to go back to probably a time when ah football sort of local football commentators have never been so important ah in this sort of this day and age was during COVID. And you know you were you were bringing...
Speaker: commentary um of games um from empty stadiums um to and sort of bringing a bit of comfort and joy to people who can do anything else ah with their lives. And I think one of the interesting sort of aspects of of that covid season was we got sort of exposed to a lot more local commentators when we were watching games from away games um so and it was quite fun listening to sort of other commentators so so my question was twofold was a did you did you feel that kind of weight of responsibility during that time did it feel different um
Speaker: sort of barring the obvious um and did you start to get sort of did people start to get in touch from that were fans of other clubs um and sort of referencing your commentary yeah you really did yeah absolutely at times I think that season is not one that I remember fondly you you almost felt a bit guilty because you were one of the or I did anyway I was one of the few people that was allowed into the ground And really you really, know, there are supporters who've got these proud records of not missing a game for years and years and years who weren't able to go. And yet we were allowed in. And and that did make you feel a little bit guilty. But I think you realise quite how much football does need fans without wishing to sound too trite. Because every...
Speaker: Great Norwich City moment that we've mentioned in in the countdown and and on previous episodes here is because you had the limbs to go with it or you had the stories to go with it. And you were talking about being at Carlisle in the mist and the fog earlier on and and watching Fraser Forster make a save. Actually, it's those fans' stories that really do make a football season...
Speaker: last and and stay in the memory. And there just wasn't any of that from that that COVID promotion season. It was it was great that Norwich got promoted. And yeah, it was great because there was no traffic. You could park right by the ground and walk in unchallenged. But it it wasn't fun. And and for me, there was ah there was a spell when things were particularly bad, when we weren't allowed to even travel to the away games. And and we were doing the commentaries, what the the the in term, the the the industry term for it is off tube, which is a posh way of saying off the telly. and i was sat in one of the meeting rooms at the forum doing commentary on a handful of norwich city's away games that season with a summarizer um co-commentating with me in a different meeting room because we weren't even allowed to be in the same room together so i definitely wouldn't um care to repeat that and and one of the problems was championship being the championship the the games didn't have a lot of cameras at them because they were trying to keep everything to a minimum and there was one game i'm trying to think which one it was but norwich were away from home
Speaker: and they were winning and they had to defend a corner quite late on in the game and it felt like, you know, we we've got to keep this corner out. They did clear the corner away and I was trying to describe it off the TV and the ball broke to the halfway line and a Norwich player picked up the ball And I had that horrible sinking feeling as a commentator. I was thinking, i don't know who that is. Who is this Norwich player who's got the ball? And it suddenly dawned on me it was Adam Eder.
Speaker: And as far as I knew, Adam Eder was on the bench and they hadn't shown him on the the live coverage because they'd been showing action replays of... of everything that had been happening and how Norwich had wattford conceded this corner, they hadn't actually shown Adam Eder coming on the pitch at any time.
Speaker: So I hadn't realized he'd been brought on. So you were completely at the mercy of whatever the TV cameras and the TV producers were telling you. So suddenly you were telling listeners, oh, Adam Eder's got the ball. And I had no idea he was going on the pitch. So... For all those reasons, I'm so grateful to get back to going to games and being able to see a much fuller picture of what's happening. So, yeah, it's not, it's strange, isn't it? Because it's a record-breaking season for the City and points and away wins and all of that. But it's not one that's remembered with any great fondness, really, is it?
Speaker: No, but it does make me feel better that, you know, when it's like, oh, bloody Jacob Wright's on the pitch. LAUGHTER Even Chris. and john jacob times yeah Where he come from? That wasn't five minutes ago. um I think we could probably ask questions all night, but I know you've had a busy evening, Chris, and so that's probably a good time to call it for today's podcast. I'll just give you one Kenny the business. Oh, yes, please. so over One of the games I was watching during the international break, I watched a bit of Wales versus Portugal, which is quite entertaining. Wales missed the, i know if you've seen it, this most incredible chance where they had...
Speaker: The ball hit the bar and it came down and there were two Wales players waiting to put it into an open goal and they fell over each other and missed it. And they then went back to the studio for some expert analysis. Do you know who the expert was in the studio?
Speaker: Oh, it's got to be ex-Norwich Welsh player. Ewan. Chris Llewellyn. Carl Robinson. Dossie. Robert Earnshaw. Because who know christia turns who knows their stuff when it comes to football more than Robert Earnshaw? There he was, absolutely incisive with his comments on and punditry on that game.
Speaker: He'd have stuck that away, wouldn't he? Yeah, and then and then nothing else. But he would have stuck it away. There's one thing he could do. Well, two things. That and analysed football matches, apparently. Actually, do you know what? The other pundit was John Hartson. So it was it was a for Canary.
Speaker: Fans of Canary strikers... Field day. Those two would definitely have fallen over each other, right? We went through quite a Welsh phase at one point. We had quite a lot of Welsh players, didn't we? I mean, that's a proper little and large partnership, I think, judging by their times at the age anyway. what What I've done, well we've set you up nicely for Swansea away now, haven't we? We've we've taken it to Wales. We've taken it to Norwich and their links with Wales. So Swansea away next everybody. What a pro.
Speaker: That's right. And if I was a pro, I'd have some great link to the first fact that we'll be back after the Swansea game, but we will. um But in the meantime, don't forget that we're on Twitter and Instagram, nothing to do with Wales, at OTB underscore pod underscore NCFC. If you want to catch us on social media, just ask us anything you like. We really don't mind. and Thank you so much to our guests tonight. Chris, I think it's fair to say we couldn't have done this one without you. Thank you so much for coming on. a Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Always enjoy it.
Speaker: ah Dan, I mean, obviously, same goes for you. We couldn't Didn't think we ought to this through, did I? But thank you for coming on. Thanks, Steve, and thanks again, Chris. that Zoe, I will leave you to swoon over some more Slimani highlights.
Speaker: Yeah, it's one way to fill the next couple of weeks, isn't it? It's a way, yes. and Thank you all for listening. Thank you to Jasper for your contribution to Kids Gorham. We will have something for our Patreon subscribers next week for everyone else. We'll be back after the Swansea game in Wales, however that one ends up going. Until then, never mind the danger.
