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Episode 369: Akeem S. Roberts
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Akeem S. Roberts (@akeemteam) is an illustrator, animator, and cartoonist who regularly draws for The New Yorker.
Substack: rageagainstthealgorithm.substack.com
Social: @CNFPod
Support: patreon.com/cnfpod
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, before we get started, just a little shout out to Athletic Brewing. The best damn non-alcoholic beer out there. Now I love me some alcoholic beer, but my goodness when I need a non-alcoholic one. It's Athletic Brewing, not a paid plug. I'm a brand ambassador, and I want to celebrate this amazing product, especially Free Wave. Oh, hazy IP8, so good.
00:00:19
Speaker
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00:00:43
Speaker
The best way that it happens to get your style as an artist is when you have a deadline that's very short and you don't have time to overthink it and get all of your influence in it. I feel like once the deadline is really short and you have to do it really quickly, you just fully present yourself.
Introducing Akim S. Roberts
00:01:10
Speaker
I see an effort at CNF Pod, the Creative Non-Fiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara, wow. Some of you know that I won the New Yorker caption contest a few weeks ago, no bigs. And since I deeply envy illustrators and cartoonists and wish that I was doing that instead of whatever it is I do,
00:01:33
Speaker
I reached out to the cartoonist himself, Akim S. Roberts, the brilliant cartoonist who set the table for my winning caption. A little about Akim. He's an illustrator, animator, and cartoonist based in Brooklyn, New York.
00:01:49
Speaker
He is passionate about breathing life into stories through art. He broke through in the New Yorker in 2019, and in 2021, he participated in Cartooning While Black, a Chelsea art gallery show that discussed race relations in a playful and charming way. He draws a weekly comic series about his life with his wife and two cats on Instagram. He's at Akeem Team, so A-K-E-E-M-T-E-A-M.
00:02:16
Speaker
This is a fun chat about creativity, developing ideas, working through the grind, dealing with self-doubt. Some great stuff here. I think you're going to really like it. I love talking to cartoonists like Jesse Springer, Emily Poole, Meechie Ng, Kristin Radke. It's really cool. I love the medium, and it's great to pick their brains and how they go about storytelling with that visual element, too. And the writing just has to be so tight, so tight.
00:02:45
Speaker
Make sure you head it over to BrendanOmero.com for show notes and to sign up for the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. It's now on Substack. Just click the lightning bolt on my website or visit RageAgainstTheAlgorithm.Substack.com. Still first of the month, no spam, can't beat it. This is how we rage.
00:03:02
Speaker
If you dig the show, consider sharing it with your network so we can grow the pie and get the CNFing thing into the brains of other CNFers who need the juice. And don't we all need the juice? You can go to Apple Podcasts and leave a kind review for the wayward CNFer. Those things matter. And for a show like ours, it's a little podcast that could when we see all those reviews and ratings. And there are a lot of written reviews. It's amazing. Some of them might be more inclined to be like, holy crap, I'm going to check that out. I don't know who Brendan is, but let's give that a shot.
00:03:32
Speaker
Also, there's patreon.com slash cnfpod. If you drop a few bucks in there, if you glean some value from what we churn and burn here at CNF Pod HQ, it'd be greatly appreciated. I'm trying to find some creative ways to sweeten the pot for people over there. I might be kicking the CNF and Happy Hour over to the Patreon crew. Most of the people who show up to the CNF and Happy Hour happen to be patrons anyway, so I figure maybe I'll just open the door to that side of the crew.
00:04:01
Speaker
I usually did the CNF and Happy Hour to newsletter subscribers, but I'm thinking that I might go over to Patreon. Who knows? Anyway, enough of that housekeeping crap. Alright, you're not here for housekeeping, you're here for Akeem S. Roberts. It's time, CNFers, riff.
Akim's Cartooning Process
00:04:30
Speaker
With New Yorker cartoons, what's the process by which you go about drawing those and getting your ideas for those?
00:04:39
Speaker
Uh, so usually like my main thing is that I'm mostly on the phone. So like my iPhone notes app, there's just like a little note that I have pinned to the top. That's like New Yorker ideas. And basically I'll just like jot down a concept and then like, uh, add a little, what I think the caption would be. And then from there I'll like sketch it.
00:05:04
Speaker
And then I'll normally read my joke and then decide that it's not good enough and then rewrite it again. Yeah. But sometimes I do just like commit to the bit and I'm like, all right, this joke is really good. And I just like do that one.
00:05:21
Speaker
Oh, that's great. And so, like, when you were, I don't know, when you were, like, you know, coming up as an artist and, you know, figuring out what kind of, you know, things you were drawn to, be it, you know, some people are more drawn to writing or to film. And clearly, you know, you're a wonderful illustrator and cartoonist. So where did you get the bug for that? I feel like my bug came from just, like, animation. Like, I would, like, draw a lot as a kid and I would, like,
00:05:51
Speaker
be drawing Nickelodeon characters as they were on my screen like Chucky I would like try to draw it but I wasn't the kid that would pause it so like really made me like
00:06:00
Speaker
Now that I think about it, think about the character as like more of a three-dimensional form versus just like very flat because I never pause. So it's like, all right, I'm just going to try and get it. And maybe that's just because like my brain like couldn't stay focused. If it was paused, I just wanted it to move. But that's how I started. And then I really wanted to get into animation, but then, you know, things happened. And I realized that like writing was like better for me in the long term, especially with like my art and my voice.
00:06:29
Speaker
When I've spoken to cartoonists in the past, oftentimes the predominant feeling is like it's about the writing first, be it the caption, the joke, and then the art kind of supports it. So is that what you found, too, that it kind of stems from the joke and then you create your art to support it, the drawing to support it?
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, so I feel like it is like really about the joke first and then the art, but then like my process is very like ebbs and flows. Like sometimes I'll like draw something and then like think of a caption later or like just go, like I said, with originally with the joke, I think, but most of the ones that I've like gotten through are like jokes that I just like wrote down, thought of, and then like,
00:07:20
Speaker
Drew it out and that's mainly when I'm like on an airplane like usually when I'm like
00:07:26
Speaker
in flight for some reason at an airport like that's when my juices are really flowing and I don't know if that's just because like I'm locked in a room basically and like all I have to do is work but yeah no it makes a lot of sense because essentially a lot of decisions are made for you like you're there aren't any very there aren't a ton of distractions around and you'll be it doing dishes or these other rabbit holes you can go into in your apartment or your house
00:07:53
Speaker
And so if you're there traveling, be it a train or a plane, it's like, well, this is this is kind of the only thing I can focus on. I can really see that. So yeah, that's where I usually get my like big juices going. And then besides that, it's like commuting on the train. But like, I don't really like draw out my ideas when I'm on the train. And when I'm on the train, I'm just like weirdo that's like typing in a snow tap. And I'm sure someone's looked over my shoulder and is like, what is this guy doing?
00:08:21
Speaker
He is just adamantly typing in his notes app like who does it? Do you do you get like? Tend to or do you tend to have kind of like a flood of ideas you just have things news Typing furiously like oh, this is something this could be something. This is really good. Oh
00:08:40
Speaker
What gets it started is usually just like in a control setting where like I'm like having to sit or like having like nothing else to do, but just like be present in the moment. And then I'll see something funny. Like I'll see a guy get on the train and like do something ridiculous. Like one time me and my wife were on the train and there was this guy who gets on and he's like listening to music like loud.
00:09:07
Speaker
which like you know that can be annoying but like it's fine if it's like different songs or like you know a full song but it wasn't like a real song at all it was kind of like just a ringtone like a 30 second ringtone and like he listened to this ringtone on blast for the whole ride from when we were like i think we were up at like union square on the queue so like
00:09:36
Speaker
From the queue in Union Square all the way down to Brooklyn, this guy was just listening to this 30-second song on repeat. And obviously, I was just flooded with ideas. I haven't figured out how to quite sell that joke to the New Yorker yet, but I want to so bad. What is that dialogue like when you're talking with the cartoon editor of the New Yorker when they're like, okay, yeah, that sounds pretty funny. Go pursue that.
00:10:05
Speaker
I guess when you're like in the office, you get more of a dialogue. Like when we used to go in, it used to be like, I could like sit with Emma and like she would like look through it with me and like be like, okay, this is closed. This is like very far off. This is like, oh, maybe you need to tweak the like caption for this. And I feel like that was like better, but now I've been doing it just like slowly on only online. So for that, it's really just like you send in jokes.
00:10:35
Speaker
you get literally no word unless you get like an okay email that like it got accepted and then every once in a while I feel like Emma does this so like the cartoonists don't lose hope is that she'll send something that's like this cartoon came pretty close but it didn't quite make it
Artistic Influences and Education
00:10:54
Speaker
And then I'll like resubmit that cartoon for maybe too many times. And I'll keep like coming up with more ideas out of like in that vein. I feel like my process is just like, if I start writing one joke, then I'll definitely think of another one after, but it like takes me a while to get started.
00:11:13
Speaker
To the point of not losing hope, I think that speaks to so many creative people and how they deal with rejection and sending things off to editors and then not hearing anything. You're like, well, is this bad? Or are they just busy? Or they're just like, oh, you know, it's fine, but it's just not a good fit right now. And then she does give you a little bit of juice, be like, OK, you're close, but it didn't quite hit the mark.
00:11:39
Speaker
So how do you process that and keep going in the face of the ongoing rejection that everybody deals with? I think you just have to find an outlook. There was one time that I submitted a batch that was just basically a bunch of cartoons being like, how I can't sell a joke.
00:11:58
Speaker
And Emma responded and she was like, are you okay? How's life? And I had to be like, yeah, I'm fine. Sometimes I'm just riding from my experience and that was the experience I was going through that week where I was like, man, I really cannot get a joke to go.
00:12:18
Speaker
like I had a cartoon basically where it was like me like sitting in like an art museum basically and I was like an exhibit and I was like sitting in the corner with like a dunce cap on and the joke was like the tour guide showing a bunch of people me and being like oh here is a New Yorker cartoonist who hasn't thought of a funny thing in like five months
00:12:42
Speaker
And she was very worried. I was like, no, it's fine. It's fine. You got to get those bad jokes out of the way, those bad drawings that you got to do. You just got to get everything out. Just send it, and then you'll be like, all right, let me reset and get it together.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point about working through, quote-unquote, bad drawings or bad jokes, because eventually if you have the endurance to stick through that and stick through that or fight against or push back against perfectionism, you get through. If you do enough bad stuff, good stuff almost has no choice but to show up.
00:13:24
Speaker
Has that kind of been your experience as you kind of work through mediocre things that aren't up to your taste and standard, but it's the bad stuff that eventually leads to really good stuff.
00:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like it's that if if I have like a like, for instance, that joke for me, I thought was hilarious. Like, I just I knew the New Yorker like wouldn't buy it. But for me, it was funny. And like every once in a while, I like to put in jokes that I know probably won't make it. But it's just for me to be like, I thought this was funny. And on the off chance that you find it funny, too. Here it is. Otherwise, it's just a laugh for us.
00:14:03
Speaker
You know in any you know issue like I don't know how many run typically let's just round number of like 15 cartoons in the issue it might be less it might be more. Do you know on a given week like how many cartoonists are competing for those finite spots in the magazine.
00:14:21
Speaker
I absolutely have no idea. I feel like you just know it's a big number. And I feel like what really struck me how big it was was when I went to the 98th anniversary party earlier this year, and I was meeting a bunch of cartoonists. Not even all of the cartoonists could come, but the ones that were in New York, and some flew, and I was just meeting onslaught of people, also the greats and stuff like that. And it was just like,
00:14:50
Speaker
Alright, like, when I'm getting rejected, like...
00:14:54
Speaker
there's like thousands of people or like more like sending jokes in that they're going through. Like even though like getting close, it's like pretty good. Like because of just like how vast a number is of cartoonists. And I feel like that also helped me like keep it in sight of just being like, you know, remember that it's not just like you and like five other people. It's not as personal. It's like they got to like let everybody get a shot to get in the magazine and like,
00:15:23
Speaker
it just wasn't funny enough, or it just isn't your time. When a bunch of cartoonists congregate like that, what do you guys typically talk about? We definitely talk about cartoons, for one. And then we'd talk shop. We'd be like, oh, what was your first cartoon? Show each other our work. Follow each other on Instagram.
00:15:49
Speaker
get drunk and start telling each other stories, update each other on each other's lives, talk about TV. I recently went to an art opening, and after that we went to this shoot pool and do karaoke, which I sadly did not make it to karaoke, but I was very jealous.
00:16:10
Speaker
That's great. And I understand your first New Yorker cartoon was published in 2019. What was, well for one, what was the cartoon and what was that like for you just to break through in that way?
00:16:25
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So when I first started, basically like my introduction to New Yorker was like very different. I didn't even have it on my like thought process or like even wanting to pursue being a New Yorker cartoonist. I just like thought it was just like outside of my realm.
00:16:44
Speaker
And I was like tabling at this convention in New York called Mocha Fest in 2019. And that weekend after I like got a message from Emma that was like, Oh, I like your work. Do you want to do like a daily shout or you can like submit some like one off cartoons?
00:17:04
Speaker
So I was like, oh, that's cool. And I like looked at it and then I had a trip. I think I like went to a wedding in like South Carolina. So like I was on a flight, had nothing but time. And I was like writing as many jokes as I could.
00:17:22
Speaker
When I submitted the tour, I was like, all right, this is my first time doing it. Let's see how it goes. And I got OK the very first time I submitted, which the joke was basically this cat looking at a mouse. And this mouse has a newspaper with glasses with his hands out.
00:17:41
Speaker
giving like a handshake to the cat. And he's like, you must be the super. It's like the joke, just like the cat's the super for the mouse. And they really loved it. And I also had another one that was like, just as bad, but it was like darker. It was just like, the mouse had more of a family in the background. And he was like, we'll have Ren on the first, I promise. And it was more just like a shakedown. But like, that was too dark for the New Yorkers. They went with like the lighter version.
00:18:06
Speaker
And, you know, you said earlier about how you would, you would, you would see the, you know, cartoons of Chucky. And I met, was that, would that have been like Rugrats? Yeah, Rugrats. Yeah. So you're drawing those like, so over the, so you're drawing those, you know, what are some other, you know, cartoons growing up that helped inform the style that you would eventually, you know, sort of adopt as your own? I feel like,
00:18:33
Speaker
I'm grabbing from a bunch of places. I feel like definitely there's an anime influence from Dragon Ball Z, a little bit of Rugrats, and then I would say Cat Dog. I feel like that's closer to what my eyes that I do for the New Yorker are like. Those I feel are closest to what I would say my inspiration is for what my art style looks like.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah, the style and voice is such an elusive thing. Whatever artistic medium it is, be it writing or illustrating, even film, how did you work through your influences and throw them into the blender? And then when you pour it out, it's like something that's uniquely acheem. What was that sort of journey like for you? I feel like I'm still on that journey, but I also feel like
00:19:24
Speaker
The best way that it happens to like get your style as an artist is when you have a deadline that's like very short and you don't have time to like overthink it and like get all of your influence in it. I feel like once the deadline is really short and you have to do it really quickly, like you just like fully present yourself because like that's who you have to fall back on is like, what's your shorthand?
00:19:50
Speaker
How do you draw a hand or like anything just like quickly off your imagination? Yeah. And at what point did you know you had a knack for it growing up where you're like, this is something that you could pursue and you're like, oh yeah, I do have like that kernel of talent that I can really lean into and really start to master.
00:20:11
Speaker
I feel like that didn't even happen until after college. I went to USC, the University of South Carolina, for media arts. Basically, I learned film, script writing, Photoshop, and all of the Adobe Suite, but it was mostly focused on film and photography.
00:20:34
Speaker
So I feel like I had always drawn, but I had always known that there was like people better than me in my circle. And I feel like
00:20:45
Speaker
You can either get hit down by that and not pursue art or just know that you'll never be the best and it's constantly, you just have to work on it. And I almost got hit down, but I decided to keep going. At that moment, a lot of people, like my stock and trades just being normal nonfiction writing, some people, they hit that fork in the road. They're like, well, I can either keep pursuing, say, long form narrative journalism or go to law school.
00:21:15
Speaker
or something like that fork in the road where it's just you kind of give up on the thing to go to something more stable. It looks like you had a fork in the road there, but you continued, you doubled down on your abilities and kept going. So what was that inflection point like for you when you decided to keep going?
00:21:33
Speaker
So one of my friends moved to New York after I did in the summer. And that was when I was just working at Starbucks. I was still doing my comics that I do on Instagram just weekly, but every so often I wasn't really committed to it. And then he was like, oh, there's this animation studio that is in the same building that he got a job at. So I reached out to them and they hired me
00:22:02
Speaker
And then from there, I started doing whiteboard animations, motion graphic type explainer videos, which was fine, but I really wanted to do something more. So I constantly just used my webcam to push myself to get better at art while I was still doing my day job of creating
00:22:25
Speaker
whiteboard videos, but even also at that time I was still working at Starbucks. So I was like animating and then going to Starbucks at night and then like doing that cycle all over again. It was very long days of just like trying to get my voice out there and trying to figure out who I am. And I feel like
00:22:44
Speaker
I didn't feel sad whenever I was drawing. So I guess that was like the motivation to keep me going was that like, no matter what it like uplift my spirits. So I felt like it was definitely something I just had to commit to and just like keep doing.
Balancing Work and Art
00:22:57
Speaker
What were those moments like at, you know, at Starbucks, when you're, you know, you're, you're there, there's this thing that's helping to pay the rent, but it's also not the thing you ultimately want to do.
00:23:10
Speaker
It was weird because like near the end of it, I was just like working at Starbucks just like one day a week, but I was like a ship supervisor. So I was like working one day a week, but also in charge. It was a very weird dynamic to like have to come down and open the store and be like, what's going on? But at the same time, everyone's looking at you to know what's going on. And I'm like, all right, yeah, I guess I'll figure it out today and then I'll forget everything and try to remember next week.
00:23:40
Speaker
but it was like a weird juggling. Like, I guess like people like saw me working on art and they're like, you know, maybe he'll do it, but they weren't like quite sure. I know like back when I first moved here, I was like living in the Bronx. And one of the things that like,
00:23:58
Speaker
used to like give me the spirit was that like there was always when I was like sketching on the commute on the like one train or the two train there would be old ladies that would always just like say never give up as I'm like drawing and I was like all right
00:24:16
Speaker
They see something. So even if that day I didn't see anything in it, they at least saw something and they were like, keep going. I don't know. That helped me a little bit as well as having that community push me even without really knowing me, just seeing me on the train and people would be like, I can see it. It's not quite there, but I can see it.
00:24:36
Speaker
do you still have like a Starbucks level PTSD like if people order like the same thing or you hear an espresso machine sort of steam off does it like give you the shutters yeah I feel like the only thing that really like got under my skin when it was like Starbucks related was like
00:24:54
Speaker
Oh, Frappuccino's like Frappuccino happy hour. Oh, I hated it so much, but not not because of the drinks. Like, yeah, it was the drinks were crazy. But I think the thing that like really got under my skin as like a barista was like the secret menu where people would just like order things from it. And I don't think it's the fault of the secret menu. I think the fault is just like
00:25:20
Speaker
they would say the name of something on the secret menu without telling me what's in it. So it's like, give me the Captain Crunch. And I'm like, what's in that? That's not a thing. Can you tell me what the order is? And they'll be like, no. I don't know it. Captain Crunch, give it to me. And I'm like, what?
00:25:40
Speaker
And I feel like that, that is the most that like things got in my skin was when it became like so much secret menu stuff, especially for Frappuccinos where you're like adding crazy ingredients that did not go together to make like crazy flavors. And it was just like, I had to like be, you're not allowed to be on your phone, but I had to pull out my phone to look up the ingredients and then like try to make that drink. It was, uh,
00:26:09
Speaker
Flashbacks. Oh, man. If you had to put a number on it, how many off-menu secret recipes are there? If I had to put a number on it, when I was at Starbucks, which has been a while now, I would say there was at least 200. It's just like some people would get a custom drink that they would get all the time, and then it would be like, you know what? Here's the name for it.
00:26:32
Speaker
And one for sure was definitely like Captain Crunch. There was like s'mores. There was like crazy other ones. And I was just like, I hate all of these. Have you done a cartoon about that yet? Because that seems like a pretty ripe one.
00:26:49
Speaker
I haven't yet. I feel like I forgot that I can go back into my Starbucks lore and bring out some stuff. Any writer or creative person needs some degree of a practice, kind of a routine by which you can really kind of hang your hat on, get work done, work through the bad stuff as we were talking about earlier.
00:27:11
Speaker
So for you like when you're setting out say at the beginning of the week or whatever day it might be like What is the practice by which you sort of organize your? You know your work So I like to start my day by like
00:27:26
Speaker
getting a coffee and some kind of snack and then I like come back home and while I'm eating I try to like watch watch a show usually I'll pick something that's like very like Saturday morning cartoon vibe to just like get the juices flowing and like uh get into that mindset so I like watch something like that and then I'll like sit at my desk
00:27:51
Speaker
And I'm sure I'll procrastinate and pull up a bunch of YouTube links. And then I'll just open up a thousand tabs and be like, this is the YouTube video I'm going to watch after that one. This is the one I'm going to watch after that one. And then I'll start playing them and just start sketching. And then hope for something magical to happen.
00:28:12
Speaker
It's fun, like with other artistic media, you know, like I said, I'm primarily a writer and I'm sort of, I'm often inspired by like, for instance, I'm working on this biography right now, but I'm kind of inspired structurally by The Last Dance, the Michael Jordan documentary for the 98 Bulls.
00:28:31
Speaker
And just the way that is set up with ancillary characters that are big in Michael's orbit, but also just how it seesaws back and forth structurally in time. I don't know if I'll go quite to that extreme, but that to me is like, oh, that's a good model. So for you, with your work, what other areas of artistic media do you watch? Are you like, oh, that's something that might not be my stock and trade, but it's definitely something I can model my work on.
00:29:01
Speaker
Uh, I feel like I read a bunch of like anime or like watch a bunch of animes and read a bunch of mangas. That's definitely something that I like, it's like part of my influence and like that I like, but I haven't quite been able to like do that with my own work. But yeah, I'm trying to like.
00:29:19
Speaker
pitch some like middle grade children book stories because like I worked on a chapter book series in like 2020 with like Kokila and like that was really fun. So I'm like thinking like maybe I want to do like a graphic novel, something like that to like share some more stories of mine.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah, in terms of a graphic novel, I'm a real big fan of graphic memoirs and stuff that really is just a non-fiction account of someone's life, just beautifully drawn and whimsically written. Is that something that you want to flirt with and start bringing up stories of your childhood and right into young adulthood?
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I want to stay quite in like the middle. It's called middle grade, which I guess is like early or late elementary school. I feel like that's a good. Ground for me of like things that I like to write about and like I never I always think about it in like fiction, like I'll do a fictional character, but like they'll be heavily based on my own life and I'll just like
00:30:35
Speaker
mix some things up. It's just basically like, um, choose your own adventure, but with my own life, I'm like, what if there was a ghost? You know, I just like go down that rabbit hole.
00:30:48
Speaker
The middle grade genre is really, it's such an important time. A lot of people lose the desire to read and it might become uncool at that time. A lot of kids fall off. So is that something that you're hoping that if you kind of go into that headspace and create from that platform that you might be able to keep inspiring people to maybe draw or certainly keep reading?
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think when it comes to like, heavy influences, I know that like, as adults, we always give it up to like, our high school years. But when I think about it, I'm like, man, maybe middle grade, like, late elementary was very highly influential to me. I still love all the shows that I watched back then, like, SpongeBob, Hey Arnold, like Rugrats, like, I feel like
00:31:42
Speaker
those are like so ingrained in the culture even today. And that's like very middle grade. I feel like we don't talk about it enough how like huge of an influence middle grade is. Right? Yeah. And you know, what was it about, you know, that time in your life too, where, you know, maybe those, you know, those cartoons, like, especially like meant a lot, you know, what was, you know, your headspace at that time where you're kind of really glommed onto those?
00:32:10
Speaker
I would say like, the like, Captain Underpants books. I feel like those were like the first type of media that presented that like, Hey, you can do this too, basically. Because like, they would have those little comics in the book that they just like made for fun in their treehouse. And it was like, kind of the first time where I like realized I like
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, if you want to do art, you can just make your own stories. And you can tell your own tales based upon the people around you. And maybe the other kids would like it.
00:32:45
Speaker
That's what I really love about your Instagram, too, which is, you know, it's just a lot of your domestic life with your wife and your cats. And it's like really just whimsical and funny. And I think it's just really relatable with these just the little snippets of stories you share.
Social Media and Personal Growth
00:33:01
Speaker
So like, how would you like how important is is Instagram to your to your trade?
00:33:08
Speaker
I feel like it's very important, at least right now, for me and how I got my start, it's very important. I don't know if Emma would have seen my work if I didn't have an Instagram. I feel like that's what she saw was my Instagram, and she loved the comedy and the storytelling that I had there.
00:33:30
Speaker
that was really important because like especially when it comes to things that are visual I feel like a lot of companies and a lot of people want to see you do it first in order to like feel that they can trust you to like make a book or like pitch ideas or anything like that like they want to see like something that you've done first which is why I think like
00:33:53
Speaker
The Instagram was big for me in that sense of showing my artwork, but also in the sense of showing my voice and my writing.
00:34:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's really important to underscore. I think a lot of people might wonder, like, how do I get a start? How do I break through or get noticed as a cartoonist if we're just going to use your primary trade? And it's like, to your point, it's just they want to see you do it first. So you just have to have the agency to start making a body of work, just giving yourself permission to put it out there.
00:34:29
Speaker
And then, I don't know how you get noticed from there, and you can't just always hashtag your way to get in front of the right people, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. So it's just like you said, you gotta just have a body of work and put it out there. My Instagram didn't like start getting people to notice it until like 2019. But I was like doing comics every week from like 2016.
00:34:57
Speaker
And like, I felt like Instagram you I use that to like figure out
00:35:03
Speaker
what was my niche and what worked for me. So at first I was doing slice of life comics, but I was trying to keep them less slice of life and more of a comic strippy vibe. So I was really inspired by Calvin and Hobbes. So I was like, all right, let me have a character that's with me that I can talk political stuff about with and even just
00:35:33
Speaker
shoot anything, just hang out with. So I was thinking of a character that's important to artists, which was art block. So in my first couple of comics, I had a character that was art block. And the main joke was this character was stealing jokes from me. And I couldn't think of what to write because of that character.
00:35:54
Speaker
And then as I kept writing, I started to give that character more of a backstory. So I was like, oh, this character just wants a friend at first. And that's why he still has ideas, because he just wants to hang out with my Akeem character.
00:36:11
Speaker
And then after a while, I felt like I was using that art block as a crutch too much to not really progress or not even write a comic, because I could always be like, ah, art block did it again. You know what I mean?
00:36:25
Speaker
So then I like one of like ink tobers, which was like, where you like draw an ink drawing like every day. And like October, I was like following the prompts. And I decided to use that as like a big send off to art block. And basically, it starts off with like me like not having an idea. And then he's like, Oh, I'll give you ideas. And then I like jump in art blocks mind or whatever.
00:36:51
Speaker
and like I'm like going through the days but also like using those prompts like continue the story along and then near the end I thought of like a tragic story for art block which is just like
00:37:03
Speaker
Art Block was my imaginary friend that when you grow up, you forget about them. And so as an artist, you forget your imaginary friend. And Art Block is basically your imaginary friend trying to stay alive in your memory and not get replaced by new ideas, which is why they stopped them from coming. And then at the end of it, I had that character be like, it's OK to forget me, basically. And you can start having other ideas.
00:37:32
Speaker
And like, that's how I killed off art block in the web series. Oh, man, that's so like, like ping bong and inside out. Like, yeah, it's just like only that, like, I was just weeping my eyes out. But but when but when you send our block away, I bet that sounds very, that's pretty moving hearing you talk about that. Is that was that kind of a sad moment? Or did you feel liberated?
00:37:56
Speaker
It was a little bit of both. It was sad, because I was like, oh, this character that I really liked, and it was easy to draw. But then at the same time, I was like, I do have to get beyond just these things that I've set for myself. So from there, I started doing more jokes that were based on things that were actually happening in my life, because I felt like
00:38:21
Speaker
At first I was like trying to keep it like a little too generic and like to be relatable rather than just like really just like grab stuff from my life to make it like this is what actually happened and like maybe I'll add a little bit of a flare, but like it's pretty much what's going on day to day for me.
00:38:40
Speaker
Hearing you talk about the art block there and and also it kind of gets to the it gets to a point of You know how sometimes we can even be our own worst enemy like sometimes I know I get in my way all the time like just with negative self-talk and just being like, you know, I
00:38:58
Speaker
you're not yet there's always someone way better than you they're probably the one who can do this story and you can't see might as well just surrender and go move on to something else and I wonder like for you like when you're if that when that voice comes in the the negative self-talk or your own worst enemy like how do you metabolize and work work through that
00:39:19
Speaker
I think that talk for me is a little freeing at times. I think that's weird to say. I guess it's because I'm a younger brother, so my oldest brother always beat me at things, so I'm not used to winning. As I said, I wasn't the best artist in the school.
00:39:42
Speaker
For instance, I moved to, like, Maryland back in my junior year of high school. And so, like, I was trying to win the superlative of, like, most artistic. So I was, like, doing comics in the newspaper. I helped design the yearbook. And I still didn't get it. I was like, oh, man, I really tried for that. And it didn't happen.
00:40:11
Speaker
Um, so like, I think when I get like that talk of like, Oh, you're like, someone's better than you. I take it as like, yeah, there's someone better than me. So like, there's always going to be someone better than me. So like, don't put that pressure on yourself. Like this isn't, this doesn't have to be a masterpiece. Like you just like have to finish it and make sure that it's better than the day you were or like the day before, like you're better than you were the day before. It's like the ultimate goal.
00:40:40
Speaker
Yeah, I know as I've spoken with people over the years, when someone, let's say, writes a really just brilliant story, and sometimes the initial reaction is like something you're like, damn, how do they do that? How can I do something of that nature?
00:40:58
Speaker
You take a step back and they're like, oh, that's an awesome story that Bronwyn Dickey, a friend of mine, wrote. And I know I could never do what she did, but because she wrote it in such a way, it kind of opens the door for me to pursue the stories that I can do with my own taste and skills.
00:41:14
Speaker
And so instead of feeling like you're in direct competition, you're just like, oh, she did that. So I bet if I take my skills over here, I can do something, I don't know, something similar to my taste. Is that something that you feel too when you see other people in your line of work and you're like, oh, that's amazing. That gives me the juice to do what I can do over here.
00:41:36
Speaker
Yes. Most definitely. I feel like whenever I see something that's close to an idea that I had, it's also freeing in the sense of being like, oh, that's why that joke wasn't bought, was because they had bought this one, which was an idea that was close to what I had, but done slightly better. And I think that helps me one, get rid of that idea so it doesn't clog up my mind. And I'm like, ah, I've got to really try and sell this again.
00:42:03
Speaker
The more ideas I can just toss, I feel like the more freeing my mind can just wonder on different things and different concepts. And if someone does something that's anime influenced for middle grade or something, I won't be like, oh, I can't believe I wasn't the first person to do that. Instead, I'm like, OK, this allows the floodgates for more things like that to be allowed.
00:42:29
Speaker
they're not, yeah, like you said, like not my competition, but like, you know, your peer that's like also doing stuff that's close to what you like, but like, it makes you like focus more on like what your voice is. Because like, if someone's already doing something close to it, the only thing that's different is like your spin on it.
00:42:46
Speaker
Yeah, like you really need to find a way, and I mean this the most flattering way possible, like find out what makes you weird and then like really double down on your weirdness because that is really the only thing new because there are thousands of people who can draw really well and you're not going to separate yourself among other artists because everyone can draw, like at a certain level everyone can draw really well.
00:43:10
Speaker
So it really comes down to your taste, your prism, and what makes you weird and whimsical. And I think that's where a lot of creative people just need to kind of... Don't regress to the mean. Go to the edges of your weirdness and stay there and hang out. You'll find people.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I always, like I said, put in a joke that's purely just for me in the batch, even though I know it maybe won't sell, but sometimes it does. And that's why I put it in there to be like, ah, that one I really loved for just me. And if it doesn't sell, I'll post it on Instagram or something. Right.
00:43:49
Speaker
And, you know, for other artists out there and illustrators who might be struggling to gain traction, you know, how would you, you know, if you had the, if they were asking, like, I came, like, how do you, how do you get noticed? And, you know, how can I start building a career around this art? Like, what might you say to those people?
Advice for Aspiring Artists
00:44:07
Speaker
I would also say, like, I would say practice makes perfect, of course. So like, just keep doing it and eventually you'll find someone. But I also think it's like,
00:44:18
Speaker
The best way to get found online or the best way to even tell a joke to the New Yorker is that you're going for something that feels like an inside joke. You're going for a joke that someone does a little thinking to get it and they feel like they're in there with you.
00:44:39
Speaker
For instance, when I did, I had a daily that came out that was basically about the Barbie movie. And when the trailer dropped, there was all of these memes on Twitter about getting tickets for Barbie and stuff like that. And I was like, OK, let me try and make a joke.
00:44:57
Speaker
that like feels like an inside joke. So like, let me make a joke that's with this meme in mind that everyone knows, like, everyone's excited to see the Barbie movie. So I was like, what if we could do that further? We're like, what if someone could see it tomorrow?
00:45:10
Speaker
And I was like, all right, so like a scientist with a time machine, like, and then I was like, all right, let's go more into the culture of like America and like, what do we know? Like, and then I started thinking like 80s and I was like, back to the future. And I was like, what if they're trying to see the Barbie movie? And then that's how I had the joke where it's like, doc talking to Marty and being like, if we jump in here right now, we'll make it just in time to see the Barbie movie.
00:45:36
Speaker
And then that joke sold to the New Yorker because it was just like something that felt timeless, but also like an inside joke. Yeah, that's I love hearing how you kind of like work through the levels of it, like, because, you know, at first you might come up with a joke or something and it might be like mildly cliche at like the early levels. But like if you keep burrowing and burrowing and burrowing, you get to what you just said, like the more inside jokiness of it, where is where the real cleverness and some of the
00:46:04
Speaker
some of the real good sort of thinking comes in that inside joke like you feel like you're in on something but you kind of have to keep work shopping and keep going a little deeper and a little deeper. There was like a talk that I went to which was like during the New Yorker festival like Quinta Brunson was talking about social media and she was like saying that like the main things that like pop on social media is basically
00:46:33
Speaker
things that react to TV or like to media.
00:46:38
Speaker
Things on social media usually react to media while media in general reacts to life, which I thought was like crazy of a concept, but I was like, that's true. Like social media, the things that really like blow up is about like someone else's reaction to that while like the more creative stuff like Abbott Elementary or like even other sitcoms and stuff like that is about like analyzing society.
00:47:06
Speaker
When you have a drought of some kind, how do you work through a drought where you feel like you're coming up with things and it's not selling and you have to just keep laboring through those moments? For those days, I feel like
00:47:30
Speaker
I will like read other jokes, other New Yorker jokes, like get inspiration to like get the voice. And then beyond that, I'll also just do like themes.
00:47:44
Speaker
So like some weeks I'll do a theme that's like, all right, you know, nothing's selling. So let me just do something that's like out of my depth that I would normally do. So like this week is nothing but like fairy tales or this week is like nothing but fish. And this week is like nothing but elephants. So it's like, that was like how I got to the one where Emma asked me if I was okay because I did a bunch of elephants.
00:48:11
Speaker
And I like, I did a bunch of elephants like to play with like memory and stuff like that. And I was like doing jokes about trying to remember like how, like trying to remember how I was funny or like forgetting how to be funny was kind of it. And I just like kept using elephants to like fill that mindset. Nothing sold, but it was a good release for me. I just feel like
00:48:38
Speaker
Sometimes I'm just making art for myself and I think that's okay. Another thing that they didn't like but I loved was there was this whole thing online about the mammoth meatball, how some scientists in Australia had just made this meatball with mammoth DNA.
00:49:00
Speaker
And in my head, I was like, this is, I just like thought of foodies and stuff like that. Like, why would you do that? So then I just like imagine all of these jokes that they did not like or buy. Cause I realized no one else knew about this meatball thing or they like saw it in passing, but I was the only one who like was really like glommed onto it and thought it was really important.
00:49:23
Speaker
But the joke was basically just having a caveman or the meatball going to the past to a caveman and the caveman being like, it's not quite mammoth flavor. They're just being super snobby about this mammoth meatball. And they did not like those jokes, but I loved them.
00:49:45
Speaker
You can almost picture the caveman in the cave with the mammoth meatball taking a picture of the meatball. It's been a while since I've done one of these asides. But speaking of a caveman, Instagramming is food. It was sitting there right in front of me. The version of a caveman Instagramming his food is doing a cave drawing of his food at a caveman restaurant.
00:50:15
Speaker
Okay, you know what? Maybe it's not funny, but I find it funny, okay? All right, whatever, man, whatever. Right? You know, just some stupid foodie shit. What's more challenging for you, doing a single panel cartoon or multiple? I would say a single panel, because I think with multiple, because like when you're telling a joke, you kind of like
00:50:38
Speaker
want to build the audience expectation and then subvert it in order to like have it be funny to them. And I feel like it's harder to do that in a single panel because like
00:50:51
Speaker
you have to like have an illustration that already builds and an expectation while subverting it. While like with a three panel joke or a four panel joke, you can like have a couple of panels introducing the audience to a concept and then like go along with the ride before you like be like, oh, let me pull the rug up underneath you. But I feel like one panel is just like, you got one shot to do it and it's tough.
00:51:21
Speaker
Yeah. Who are some of the cartoonists, be it at the New Yorker or elsewhere, where you look at their work and you're like, damn, that is good. They inspire you to make the most out of what you can do with your talents. I would say like Ellis Rosen is really good. I love his humor. Asher, also really, really great.
00:51:46
Speaker
Ross Chas gives that energy that sometimes makes me like be like it's okay to be a little weirder instead of like being as safe, but yeah, just like a bunch of them like I'm trying to think So many people like Jeremy is good Jason Sophia just like all of them like they like have their own voice. It's like very
00:52:12
Speaker
Like they'll go whimsical, but in a way that's not the way that I would do it. And it's like, I love it.
00:52:18
Speaker
Well that's what makes everybody, you know, that's where you get back to the whole thing about style and voice and it's like, it's so, they double down or triple down on what makes them weird and they stay, they know their lane and are comfortable staying in their HOV lane because this is where I am, this is where everything is humming in all cylinders and it's like, this is where I am. Like Leanna Flick, she's got a very crude way of drawing but it's like,
00:52:46
Speaker
really funny and dry. And I love that about them. Asher is hilarious. I love his stuff. His stuff is so good. And it's great. Some of the ones you post on Instagram can be pretty grim and bleak. So I imagine those are ones that you like too when you have a tendency to want to go bleak.
00:53:07
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Sometimes I like to go like too dark and it's just like not what they want. Right. And when you if you're writing a writing or drawing a cartoon for say like the caption contest, like how does how does that work? Where do they does the editor say, or do you put in a fully fleshed thing and they take the the caption away and be like, yeah, we'd like to use this as the contest or how does how does that operate?
00:53:36
Speaker
I feel like some people submit stuff that they think would be caption contest stuff and they buy it. I have just never been that person. For me, it's always a joke that I submitted to them and then maybe I recaptioned it a couple of times and they're like, all right, kid, not quite it, but we like to draw. We'll turn this one over to the masses and see if they can do better.
00:54:02
Speaker
Yeah. That's awesome. Well, Akeem, I want to be mindful of your time. And it's something I always like to ask people as we bring these conversations down for a landing is to ask you, the guest, a recommendation for some kind for the listeners. And it can just be anything you're excited about, like a cool digital tool or analog tool or a fanny pack. It doesn't matter. So I'd extend that to you, Akeem. What might you recommend to the listeners out there?
00:54:31
Speaker
I would recommend the app Procreate. I feel like all of my New Yorkers are done in that app and all of the professional work that I've done has been done in that app, surprisingly. I do have Photoshop, nothing against Photoshop, but something about like drawing an iPad on Procreate just like gets that itch for me. In what way? In what way is it like it just scratches that itch for you?
00:55:00
Speaker
I feel like when I'm using a Cintiq, it just feels too much like I'm drawing on glass. And with my iPad, I have a paper-like mat on it, which allows it to have more grit. And I feel like that makes it feel... It just scratches my brain in a good way, like I'm writing on paper. It's not quite paper, but it's close enough that it scratches it.
00:55:30
Speaker
Yeah, like there is some friction there that feels like, you know, maybe pencil on paper. Like, yeah, that's satisfying, I guess.
00:55:38
Speaker
Very nice. Well, Akim, this was so great to get to talk to you about this and we are cosmically intertwined since my caption one year, you're a really brilliant cartoon. And so I'm so happy we're able to do this. Yeah, it's really cool that we're able to do this and get to talk about how you approach creativity and your craft, which I so deeply admire and really, really, really love. So, you know, thanks for taking the time here to talk shop and thanks for coming on the show.
00:56:07
Speaker
Of course. I will say I do have one question. What is your, what's your caption process?
00:56:14
Speaker
Oh, let's see. I like to do it every week, and I imagine since I was so lucky to win one here that even if I submit, I probably wouldn't be able to be selected again. But I try to go for something really short and punchy. I feel like reading so many captions, and I love the cartoons. I read all the cartoons first.
00:56:37
Speaker
And those like short punchy ones tend to be, the word economy has to be really good. So that's how, that's what I try to go for. And then I also think of what, you know, what is the cliche thing? You know, if there's a, you know, a duck as the, as the pilot, you know, it probably, probably a lot of people are going to go into actually flying or something. So it's like,
00:57:04
Speaker
I tried to think, well, ducks like water landings. And so when you're on a plane, they always say in the unlikely event of a water landing. So I was like, that one might be really good, because they know how to skim into the water. I'm like, that one has a pop to it.
00:57:19
Speaker
And I submitted that on Instagram, and they actually noticed it. It only got like eight likes or something from the community, and some others were getting hundreds, so I'm like, there's no way they're gonna pick this. But I was really encouraged that they comb through and actually look for what they deemed to be the best ones, not the ones that were just sort of algorithmically upvoted by Instagram.
00:57:43
Speaker
Wow. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that, that is kind of what they want is a, a short, punchy, uh, caption. So I am trying to see if I can get a very long caption in and that's my goal.
00:57:59
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's the other thing too about like, you know, a long caption can be can be really, really funny, too, because you're like, oh, my God, this thing just keeps going, going, going. And that's part of the joke that it's so long. Yeah. And and I really like that, too. But it's yeah, but it's always about, you know, that word economy. Can you just like look at it and just like read it in a second and you just kind of get a little chuckle?
00:58:24
Speaker
So yeah, that's kind of how I always approach it. And it's a fun game for me, because it scratches a comedic itch for me. And yeah, who knows? And I got lucky. Not only was it made a finalist, but it got voted the winner. So I was tickled. And yeah, so I'm super stoked. So I'm glad we got the, whether you knew it or not, we got the partner on something. Yeah, it's a good caption. I'm glad it's there.
00:58:55
Speaker
ACNFers, as always, thanks for listening and thanks to Akeem for coming to play ball and to talk about how he draws his cartoons and writes his cartoons. Great stuff. He's at Akeem Team on Instagram and you can learn more about him and his work at AkeemTeam.com. That's A-K-E-E-M-T-E-A-N.
00:59:16
Speaker
Yo, BrendanOmero.com is where you find the show notes and where you can also sign up for the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. It's still book recommendations, a short essay, writing inspirations, and a series of links that literally go up to 11. First of the month, no spam, so far as I can tell. You can't beat it.
00:59:35
Speaker
Oh boy, now I really, really debated whether or not to talk about this because there's still quite a bit of uncertainty. This is not writing related. But if you remember a couple weeks back I talked about Lachlan, this troubled dog that we adopted and we seem to always find these really troubled dogs. But we ultimately decided to surrender him back to the shelter because there was an incompatibility.
01:00:03
Speaker
he went back to a foster home because he was a bit disruptive in the shelter because he barks, barks, barks, barks. Oh my goodness. So he's kind of a stress ball and stressing everyone else out. So, oh my God, I got a call this morning. This being Thursday.
01:00:19
Speaker
It was the shelter, and I was like, oh fuck. They only said they were going to be calling me back to tell me about Loughlin. They were going to say, we're only going to call you. Talk about Loughlin. If they deemed him unfit for adoption, it would soon be euthanized.
01:00:39
Speaker
So my stomach just drops into my shoes because I knew that my wife and I, and by extension our other two dogs, we're going to have to welcome back, welcome him back and figure it out. This dog had like no chance at a good life.
01:00:55
Speaker
I had better faith in the foster care that the shelter had access to that fell out from under him yet again. He was improving under our care, but the aggression was something that came out and it was something we figured we couldn't tackle and that maybe it would be best to he'd be a single dog home.
01:01:20
Speaker
And I figured he could survive in Foster for as long as he as long as it took to find that single dog home. But I guess the foster couldn't couldn't handle him anymore. And I guess this is one of their better foster people and all star foster. Oh.
01:01:40
Speaker
Like I said, it's very hard for me to even talk about it. He doesn't deserve to die just because he's scared and stressed out and something of a nuisance right now. Even though my eyes are starting to burn up. With the proper training and above all structure and patience, he's got potential. We thought we were on that road and it seemed untenable at the time.
01:02:06
Speaker
I think we can defray the aggression and with training some medication as well to get him through his training and a fucking shit ton of exercise. And did I say patience? He'll come around. He's very bright. He's very sweet. He's a real tender soul, but he needs better circumstances for him to shine. It'll take months to remove the fear and the stress, but we've got to do it.
01:02:36
Speaker
And I think once he gets that stability and remove some of that stress and defray some of that fear, then it'll open the door for other aspects of his personality to come through. And he might even get along with the other two, the other two dogs.
01:02:53
Speaker
So you might be asking like, why didn't you just do it before BO? Why do you surrender him back in the first place? And it's a fair question. And did we give up too soon? And three weeks is nothing. After three weeks though, things seem to be, in terms of aggression, escalating. And like I said, I had more faith in the shelter to rehome him with the Wright family. Their all-star foster couldn't handle him after a few days. Even I gave the foster just a ton of,
01:03:22
Speaker
Info on I wrote the book on him I wrote like this thousand word email about you know things to do to help him out But I guess it was just too much, and he was stressed out there apparently I don't know just disruptive and Maybe even a danger to himself. I don't know We did see some improvement in him in the three weeks. We had it's there
01:03:47
Speaker
The guy from the shelter was trying to tell me why it might be a good idea to euthanize him. And this is, you know, no-kill shelter, so I guess this is more for a no-kill shelter. I guess this is sometimes common, which kind of caught me off guard. You know, when I had to surrender him, they first said, like, oh, do you want to know if, like, we deem it unfit, like, if he's unadoptable, that we put him down. I was like, that's a thing.
01:04:13
Speaker
Anyway, I want to say that he could be too disruptive to us because we need to have our lives and our other dogs, they deserve to have good lives too.
01:04:24
Speaker
This isn't a reason, in my opinion, put a dog to sleep. If we were his last line of defense between the right home in euthanasia, we would find a way. That's what I told the shelter. We didn't think that just two weeks to the day of surrendering him, we'd be called back saying we were, in fact, that last line of defense.
01:04:45
Speaker
So here we go again. By this time next week, Little Lachlan, Little Prince as I was calling him, will likely be back in the house barking and raising hell. We're going to have to figure things out. But I think we're better equipped in a sense because we have the book on them. We know what we're getting into.
01:05:07
Speaker
We're meeting with the trainer who helped us with Kevin last year. Kevin was a basket case a year ago. Granted, she's very demure and submissive and doesn't have the aggression that Lachlan was developing in territoriality. I think it was mainly triggered by Hank. So Hank's going to have to get in line. His rule is coming to an end.
01:05:33
Speaker
But like I said, with time, stability, and training, Kevin, she's thriving. And I think Lachlan deserves that chance. I think I said, I think I said, I think I said it was a square peg, round hole situation a couple weeks ago. Well, we need to get out of saw and make that round hole square.
01:05:54
Speaker
And it's going to be tough, expensive and disruptive. But is disruptive a reason to put a dog to sleep? Because he's difficult, because he's inconvenient, because he's not this perfect little four-legged humanoid. The dog was dealt one of the shittiest hands in his short life. And my wife, and by extension Kevin and Hank,
01:06:17
Speaker
We're gonna have to make some sacrifices because we don't we don't give up on each other Locko needs our help in fuck He's gonna get it Stay wild seeing efforts if you can't do interview see
01:06:48
Speaker
you