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"Fear your silence more than your words" - Kellie-Jay Keen
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Kellie-Jay Keen (AKA Posie Parker) is an activist for sex-based rights. She is the founder of Standing For Women, a global women’s rights campaign group, and the creator of the action Women Stand Up!
Her recent tour of Australia and New Zealand made global headlines. She was rushed by Lidia Thorpe in Hobart, accused of being a Nazi sympathiser in Melbourne, and assaulted in Auckland in scenes that shocked the world.
In this conversation with host Will Kingston, she's a British mum of four leading a global movement on behalf of women everywhere.
Follow Australiana on social media here.
Subscribe to The Spectator Australia here.
Check out the STANDING FOR WOMEN website here.
Follow Kellie-Jay on Twitter here.
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Transcript
Introduction and Media Critique
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's interview is with Kelly J. King, AKA Posey Parker.
00:00:04
Speaker
Her portrayal by the media in recent months has been a salient reminder that good journalism is increasingly hard to find. Unless you're a Spectator Australia subscriber. The Speccy was one of the few organisations to cover Kelly Jay's recent Australasian tour fairly and intelligently. Subscribe today for the most insightful and trustworthy dispatches from the frontlines of the women's rights debate and other battles in the culture wars. Digital subscriptions start at just $16.99 a month,
00:00:34
Speaker
and you get one month free when you sign up. Go to spectator.com.au forward slash join.
Activism and Public Perception
00:00:54
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Australiana from The Spectator Australia, a series of conversations on Australian politics and life. I'm Will Kingston. My guest today is Kelly J. Keen, aka Posey Parker. Kelly J. is an activist for sex-based rights.
00:01:10
Speaker
She is the founder for Standing for Women, a global women's rights campaign group, and the creator of the action Women Stand Up. She first came into the public eye when interviewed under caution by the British police for speaking out about the transitioning of children on Twitter. Her recent tour of Australia and New Zealand was nothing short of extraordinary in the best and worst senses of the word.
00:01:32
Speaker
She was rushed by Lydia Thorpe in Hobart, accused of being a Nazi sympathizer in Melbourne, and assaulted in Auckland in scenes that made news bulletins the world over. Kelly J, welcome to Australia. Thank you so much for having me. So I put out a tweet to promote this episode, which you then retweeted. You may be used to this by now, but I found the response absolutely extraordinary. The hate and bile was predictable, but it was the spectrum of emotions that surprised me.
00:02:01
Speaker
So for every person calling you a Nazi and there were several, there was someone who wanted to thank you for your bravery. There were several victims of sexual assault who wanted me to say thank you on their behalf. I'll be honest, I was overwhelmed and this is a fraction of what you experience every single day. My first question is, how do you handle this?
00:02:22
Speaker
I think you have to take both things with equal measure. So somebody who like somebody offering gratitude that I'm speaking out about this, that's just a wonderful thing to receive and is incredible. But often I will get people saying the most amazing things about me, which are not necessarily based on anything. And it's often projection. And so you have to take those things as much as somebody projecting that you're one of the worst humans on earth.
00:02:48
Speaker
And if you take both of those things and you understand that they both come from a place of what that person needs to say, as opposed to what is true, and I also have teenage children, you can kind of keep yourself very firmly on the ground and not wear it, not wear either of those things, not become some sort of crazed egoist, but also not feel the weight of the hate upon your shoulders.
00:03:10
Speaker
Well said, and I think that word projection is a very interesting one and we'll get back to that because I think that says a lot about your opponents.
Biological Sex and Transitioning Debate
00:03:18
Speaker
I was going to start with your experience in Auckland. We will get to it, but I was halfway through writing down my notes for this interview and I realized it hadn't even
00:03:27
Speaker
occurred to me to write a question about what you believe in and why you're fighting for it. And it may be because none of the media coverage that I've read has bothered to do that either. It's a really sad reflection on the media, it's a sad reflection on the public discourse. So hopefully I don't make that mistake. Kelly J, what do you believe in? What's your platform and what are the practical policies that you are fighting to protect or change?
00:03:50
Speaker
So I think biological sex is real and worth defending. I feel it is a final frontier of untruth and manipulation. And so once it goes, I don't know how much longer we can sustain ourselves as a civilisation. So I believe that women and girls have the right to single sex spaces. In fact, I believe that men and boys also have a right to single sex spaces.
00:04:13
Speaker
I believe that sex is immutable. Therefore, nobody born male can actually ever use a female-only space because then it ceases to become, ceases to be a female-only space. I think transitioning children is profoundly abusive. I don't think we have the right ever to manipulate a child's body, which will render it infertile and without sexual function in adulthood. I don't think there's a good enough reason except for genuinely saving, medically saving that child's life. So chemotherapy, for example, if a child has cancer,
00:04:43
Speaker
will have a side effect of possibly rendering that child infertile. But that's kind of worth it, right? Because it literally is physically saving their lives. It's just basically the same stuff we all believed 10 years ago. And now some people pretend that they don't believe it. There's two things I want to pick up on there. The line, the final frontier is interesting. Can you expand on what you mean by saying that this is the final frontier?
Media Influence on Society
00:05:05
Speaker
There's a film called Tomorrowland, which probably isn't that well watched, but it has this thing where the media just pumps chaos of what is really going on in the world, and it isn't what's really going on in the world. And I feel right now that that is what's going on in the world. You sort of see TikTok videos of extreme violence of school children, where somebody's stomping on somebody's head. And we just seem to be at this place where everything civilized is becoming just rare.
00:05:33
Speaker
or seemingly rare. And that's what we're supposed to think because that's the images that we are delivered on a daily basis. And so the final frontier of truth, I guess, is what would you do? You dissolve the family, you dissolve community, and that's just happened because we move. So I grew up in a small time. Both my parents have lots of brothers and sisters, and we lived in a sweet shop from the age of when I was 11.
00:05:57
Speaker
And so if I was walking down the street behaving badly, there would have been people that knew my parents. So I wouldn't have been able to do that. Well, children don't live in those sort of times anymore. And perhaps I've got a rose-colored glasses view of why that's a good thing. We just keep divorcing from our human bodies, which I think is our human experience. We've got surrogacy. We've got people advocating for prostitution. We've got this thing where you can pretend to be the opposite sex.
00:06:24
Speaker
We've got all these subjective, bizarre, dehumanizing things that are happening. And it's been sold to us as kind and choice and all the things that any decent human would want. The word dehumanizing is an important one. I think the lack of humanity that I saw in Auckland really was quite scary. And it follows on quite nicely from what you just said. So let's talk about Auckland.
Auckland Incident and Safety Concerns
00:06:47
Speaker
Completely coincidentally, I was in Auckland for work whilst you were there. So I was watching the fallout quite closely.
00:06:52
Speaker
But millions of people around the world now have seen the footage of you surrounded by a deranged mob. Many of them were biological men harassing you, throwing deuce on you, abusing you. You've had a bit over a week now to look back on it. What are your reflections?
00:07:07
Speaker
I keep revisiting this, what I want the police in the centre of that. When I was going in, I just assumed that there was a police cordon around, around the women. I just genuinely, I thought the police were going to sort of have a line where I could get in as well, but that, that didn't happen. But when I got in, I just remember my first question was, well, where, where are the police? The two possibilities are either incompetence or there was an ideological agenda there. Which side do you fall on?
00:07:36
Speaker
The latter, 100%. I think the officers on the ground that day, they all look very young, but then I'm nearly 50. So I think that's what happens as you get old. I think as you age, everybody just looks really young. And so these officers just looked, I mean, they just looked shocked. When I came out of the mob and you sort of, you see them, they looked shocked. So I don't think those officers joined the police force not to protect women.
00:07:59
Speaker
some of whom were getting punched in the face and terrorized. I don't think that's what they joined up for. Further up the food chain, so if I could just go back a little bit. When I was going to New Zealand, we had liaise with the police because they wanted to know where I was, where I was staying, what time I was landing. Now, because a couple of times in Australia, I'd had police escorts when I'd arrived at the airport, I assumed that's what the
00:08:21
Speaker
Auckland Police were going to do. So when I got to the airport and I actually had two hours being interrogated and having all my luggage searched and weighed and so on, I just thought, okay, here we go. On the flight on the way over, after we told the police where we are, a hotel counsels us claiming that the police have gone into the hotel and they no longer want me in there. So that's like difficult.
00:08:43
Speaker
So anyway, that's what I think about the police. I think that they'd already had a bit of interference. I don't know quite what that's about, whether that's to frighten me, intimidate me to, I just have no idea. I can only think bad things.
Contradictions in LGBTQ Activism
00:08:56
Speaker
So I get into the mob and then I realize,
00:08:59
Speaker
that they're breaking down, they're coming in, they're so hateful. I see the news guy from News Hub who's just blatantly lied about me and helped whip up this frenzy. And there's signs in there like, be kind, love will win, we say no to hate, and all these things. And at the same time, they're the most hateful mob I've ever encountered.
00:09:19
Speaker
Well, if I can pause you there, cause I've got a question right on this and it's something that really jumped out to me as well, watching this footage. And that is the tension between the language and the symbols of the activists and then how they behaved. And you're exactly right. The LGBTQ, whatever branding is all about warm and fuzzy feelings. And yet the level of aggression and hostility was, it was shocking. Why do you think that contradiction so often seems to emerge between word and deed amongst parts of that community?
00:09:47
Speaker
Well, that's an old adage, isn't it? Like fascism comes as your friend and authoritarianism, you know, a whole nation in the 1930s in Germany. The messages were, hey, why don't you come and hate some people? Why don't we demonize some people so much that we can kill them? It comes slowly and it comes like, hey, we're going to help you. We're going to make you feel good in your rights and you're powerless, aren't you? And we're going to help you feel powerful. So I think that's the only way authoritarianism can take hold in a population.
00:10:15
Speaker
So that's just what this is. And language is something that I've always focused on. It's really bloody important. You can do anything to people if you've got the right language. You've got a real simplicity around your language. You've got a real clarity of language. It feels to me like you don't need a hundred words when five will do. Is that something that you really focus on?
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, look, I like to talk a lot, but I like people to understand what I'm saying really quickly. And I think that's, that's why it resonates. That's why it lands with people. Nobody needs to work out. Well, what does she think? Because I just say, you know, women don't have penises. It's a really simple thought. And also people don't want to spend a lot of time trying to work out what you stand for. They need it really in their faces and then they can decide whether or not they support you.
00:11:02
Speaker
I want to go back into the middle of that mob for a moment. There was a comment that you made to Brendan O'Neill on his show recently, which I found very interesting. You said that when you're in that moment, which I imagine none of the listeners will have experienced, when you're in that moment, it takes on a life of its own. People feed off each other's hate and its momentum builds and it just gets more and more rabid.
00:11:25
Speaker
What I was thinking when you said that was, do your interactions with trans activists look different when you're one-on-one as opposed to in that mob context? Yeah, look, I don't really have one-on-one. Trans activism was chosen a long time ago. There's literally a textbook about it that tells them not to engage, not to debate. Don't debate. And then you can do this. You can paint someone as hateful because you never really get into your own arguments or theirs. So I suspect it would be different.
00:11:52
Speaker
I mean, there's a viral video of me telling a man to stay out of women's spaces, so I do just stick to the same message, but I'm not going to feel like they're going to kill me, which I did that day. So, yeah, my message never changes, and I did feel afraid that day, but I rarely feel, you know, genuinely afraid.
00:12:11
Speaker
You're right in that there it does feel like there's almost this textbook for how the left responds and name calling and playing the man and not the ball seems to be such an integral part of that textbook. Obviously, the slur that has been thrown your way a lot of late is the Nazi slur. How do you respond when you get called a Nazi?
Absurd Accusations and Public Image
00:12:32
Speaker
what can you say? It's just so absurd. Nazis stood for the genocide of millions of people based upon the fact that they were Jewish and I know other people like Romani Gypsies and other groups were also killed. But to sort of claim that a woman not wanting men in women's spaces is somehow the same as
00:12:55
Speaker
genocidal mass murderers is just so insane. I don't think there's any point even defending it because it's not based upon anything true. So you can't defend something like that. That's like saying calling me a spider, you know, it's just, it's just not true. I don't have to tell everyone I don't have eight legs, you know.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's fair. And unfortunately, sometimes you just can't help but get sucked into these pointless debates on Twitter with idiots who are saying things like that, which are patently unfair. One thing that I did notice is people will, if they haven't heard directly you denounce something, they will take any sort of omission. And even if it's not an omission, even if it's just a lack of knowledge on their part, they will take that as guilt. And it's a really
00:13:38
Speaker
worrying aspect of the debate today. I've been quite troubled by it just in these awful little Twitter spats that I've seen since we started promoting this conversation. Well, I think also if you denounce, I don't think it makes any difference. Why is she denouncing Nazis? Why would she have to do that? Well, the only answer is obviously because she is a Nazi.
00:14:01
Speaker
So when I'm asked by the media, if I'm in an interview, I will answer the questions about Nazis, but I'm not giving up any of my time or my words to denounce people that I've had absolutely nothing to do with. I'd only have to denounce someone.
00:14:17
Speaker
in my own sort of team if they did something that was associated with me. But these men are not associated with me. And the fact that your media in Australia and some of your politicians have tried to smear me with it just says that I think they're afraid of something. And I'd like to know why the likes of the leader of the Liberal Party, John Pizzuto, I'd like to know why he's afraid of someone like Maura Deeming talking about women's rights and child children's safeguarding. Like, why does that make these men so afraid?
00:14:46
Speaker
Let's get on to that. So let's start with John Presudo, who, as an aside, is such a lightweight, I'm surprised he doesn't fly away. He was leading a push to expel Maura Deming from the Liberal Party in Victoria. In the end, it was a nine month suspension for being at your rally when neo-Nazis turned up, despite no evidence that she had anything to do with it. What was your reaction to that decision?
00:15:07
Speaker
Oh, just shameless. I mean, what's happened? What's happened to conservatives the world over, really? You know, whether it's the Republicans, a conservative party in the UK, or the conservatives in Australia, they're just not conservative. They're so feeble. And actually, people are looking for leadership. And I'm not saying that I'm even a conservative, but there at least has to be a choice between different political parties. And at the moment, there isn't. And that's because
00:15:30
Speaker
We're in a world where corporations seem to be shaping the way in which we live and the information that we have. And so global governments are losing their power. And I think it's foolish and it's a very short term game with very short term wins. And I think if the conservatives remain steadfast,
00:15:48
Speaker
and offered an alternative, I think people would take that option. This is a conversation which is going on in Australia at the moment. All of mainland Australia is now run by labor governments. Federal government is obviously a labor government, so there is a lot of introspection on the liberal side to say, well, why is this happening? And the only thing that I can see is that there isn't that genuine alternative. If I extend on this issue around, I would say courage of the political class and then courage specifically on the right side of politics.
Grooming Gang Scandal and Political Cowardice
00:16:15
Speaker
The story that comes to mind for me so often, and I like to bring it up on this podcast because it's not talked about enough. And that's the grooming gang scandal in the UK, where you have thousands of young girls who have been raped in ethnic minority groups in the UK. It's often been obliquely justified under the grounds of cultural differences. It's largely ignored because police, because politicians, because the media, they're all afraid of being called racist. I look at this story. I think the UK, this is the country of Winston Churchill, for God's sake.
00:16:45
Speaker
Why is there such an absence of courage in our institutions and specifically in our political class today?
00:16:53
Speaker
Oh gosh, that's such a good question. We know that in Pakistan, women's rights are not particularly great. There's baby girls rotting in carrier bags on rubbish tips, not all over Pakistan, but that is something that happens in Pakistan. And we know that there's a high proportion of female fetuses aborted over male fetuses. And it doesn't really matter where you sit on the pro-choice, pro-life debate, but we know that there are sex selective abortions in Pakistan. So why we would think that
00:17:22
Speaker
this culture could sort of come over to the UK and just magically think more of women than they do in their own country is just preposterous. But we all had to pretend that it's racist. I've been called accused of being racist because I think that we really should be encouraging women.
00:17:42
Speaker
from these communities to be able to read and write and speak English because otherwise they're so isolated and they have no idea what their rights are. But that will be seen as me sort of saying that these pesky foreigners can't speak English. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if you want to have equal access to our laws and our rights, you really do need to be able to read and write English in order to have a fair chance of that.
00:18:09
Speaker
I've heard you talk about Anne Whittacombe and Tony Benn in the past. Tell us about them, because I think that will go a long way to shining a light on why politicians today are so afraid to say what you have just said.
00:18:24
Speaker
So there were two politicians, Anne Whiddecombe and Tony Benn. They were really polar opposites. Tony Benn was all about the unions. He was actually anti-EU, which on the very left, it was quite right that they felt that the EU was anti-democratic anyway, and Anne Whiddecombe was even against anybody in religious circles being at the hierarchy of particular organised churches.
00:18:44
Speaker
So anyway, both of them to the extreme of the parties, but they were called conviction politicians and it was really interesting. I just thought, why isn't, why is that even a thing? Like, why is it that anybody would be called a conviction politician? Surely that is part of being a politician. I think I knew back then, you know, that's been a couple of decades.
00:19:04
Speaker
And I guess Tony Blair really was a turning point for the left putting up lefty politicians. And that's when we ceased to have sort of a binary choice in the UK and they became a little bit amalgamated. For Australian listeners, John Howard was the last real conviction politician in Australia, the same era. And then the rise of Kevin Rudd, probably a bit after Tony Blair, but we saw the exact same trend play out in Australia. So this is a familiar story, but please go on.
Media's Role in Political Decline
00:19:33
Speaker
I wonder if it's the rise of media and sound bites because actually you've then got people coming in who advise your every tweak and word. And I'm not saying that speeches in the past didn't actually get tweaked by people that knew better than the actual person delivering. But there's something really interesting about when you have to rely on sound bites, can't really explain a position and then everything gets
00:20:00
Speaker
sort of whittled into tiny little pieces and not really big concepts because nobody can explain a big concept in two sentences. So I wonder if it's that, if that's why politicians can no longer really stand for something because no one's got any time for nuance.
00:20:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a part of it. You mentioned the media and it's ironic. It's actually something which has never really occurred to me until this very moment and that is as the conviction politician has ceased to exist, at the same time, conviction journalists have gone through the roof. This sort of activist form of journalists where their job is now to use their platform to promote a particular ideology
00:20:40
Speaker
is very different from the days where the role of the journalist was to search for truth it's really concerning and i wonder whether there is a relationship between the decline in the political sphere and the rise in the media sphere but it raises another really good question around how the media has treated you i think you are the single best russia test for media organizations i've ever seen.
00:21:05
Speaker
If the organization is left-wing, you are an anti-trans activist. If it's right-wing, you're a women's rights advocate. There's not much nuance in between. How do you reflect on how you've been portrayed by the media?
Media Portrayal in Different Countries
00:21:17
Speaker
Oh gosh. Well, in the Daily Mail in the UK, I am a women's rights champion. I am a victim of the police and I am standing up for women and girls. Daily Mail Australia, I'm an anti-trans. My kids deserve to be named, which they did in, I don't know, for what purpose? I have no idea. And I deserve everything that's coming to me. It's really interesting. That's just one paper. So that's what, I guess when you look at those two things, that's when you know that the Daily Mail is
00:21:47
Speaker
And I love the Daily Mail in the UK. I'm not going to lie, it's brilliant for what it says about me, but you don't understand it's about shaping the narrative. It's not really about reporting news. And even though the individuals, well, I'm going to be really biased, it's even though the individuals in the UK that report on me favorably clearly are reporting the news, there's just something about it that I thought was quite perfect because I was like, oh, the Daily Mail are talking about me in Australia. Well, that must be good. It was just so, so terrible. But I think there is a decline in well-paid journalists.
00:22:16
Speaker
who think their job is to actually speak about the truth and we know that all journalism has always been biased because we are human so we will all have our biases but most people try used to try to be objective or at least try to appear to be objective and now it really is it's an activist culture. You know I when I got to the airport at Auckland I had was met with some press and this journalist this young journalist I think she was from
00:22:45
Speaker
Oh, I can't remember. Some channel with about 72 viewers. No, I think she was national. And she said, which still might be 72 viewers, she said something about anti-trans. And I just said, hang on a minute. I said, well, what is the difference between, for you, what is the difference between a so-called trans woman and a man?
00:23:07
Speaker
And she said, well, you know, the whole identity. And I said, yeah, what is that? And she knew she couldn't answer. So she kept saying, well, we're ideologically different. I said, well, you just need to answer the, we need to understand where we are. So I can answer the rest of your questions. And they, you know, she couldn't do it. And then they report on me, unfavorably, they made up stuff like not, they didn't even exaggerate. They just made up stuff. It was just,
00:23:33
Speaker
It was interesting to witness if I could take myself out of that and what actually was the result of their fabrications and lies. If I take myself out of it, what an interesting examination into what the media does to people that it doesn't agree with. It can easily assassinate someone's character, no matter what you believe, because they don't even have to discuss what I believe.
00:24:01
Speaker
in order to paint me as this terrible villain it's just I think it should make us all very very afraid and ask we should all ask ourselves what do we know about people the people that we're supposed to hate what do we really know about them and is it true
00:24:17
Speaker
And I guess as well, it means that you've got to be very selective and very careful about the media sources that you do trust. And that means it's time for a classic segue from me. I think you can trust the spectator Australia. We've been reporting on the front lines of these cultural for ages.
00:24:33
Speaker
covered Kelly J's trip closely and we're one of the very few media organizations to get it spot on. We will continue to do so. Pick up a digital subscription today, $16.99, one month free thrown in, best investment you'll ever make. Kelly J, I was very interested that you said that the Daily Mail reported differently between Australia and the UK and it got me thinking about
00:24:52
Speaker
the broader differences that you observe between the UK and Australia when it comes to women's rights.
Women's Rights and Trans Debate
00:24:59
Speaker
Obviously, you know the UK environment much better and you've had a taste now of what's happening in Australia and New Zealand, but what are any differences between how the women's rights and the trans debate is playing out in Australia relative to the UK?
00:25:11
Speaker
Unfortunately, it's the same. We have a little bit better media and we were ahead of the curve. British women were ahead of the curve when it came to what was happening. And so some of the stuff that's happened covertly in Australia hasn't taken hold in England.
00:25:27
Speaker
That may change once we get a Labour government that might all get pushed through. But we haven't had as much silencing on this. You really have. I mean, it's just quite shameful what's been happening down under. When I was in Queensland, in their government literature, I think it's Perth in Queensland. It probably isn't, is it? Western Australia, but very, very similar, very similar governments.
00:25:53
Speaker
Okay. So they say in their literature about parenting that a child has a sexuality age zero. So when your baby's born and they sort of touch their own bodies, that is them exploring their sexual identity. Now that's straight out of kind of Kinsey, Foucault, John Money type, pedophile, apologist language. That's what that is.
00:26:13
Speaker
talking about children having a sexual identity. And it's just this erosion of the way we can talk about children. And 20, 40 years ago, when people talked about this, they were rightly accused of being perverts. And now it's being peddled by governments. This has been a very slow and successful campaign, I think, by some people with really nefarious intentions towards children.
Fringe Ideas Becoming Mainstream
00:26:32
Speaker
How have we got here? I'm really fascinated by that because you're right. A lot of this debate in trans, in the gender ideology debate, in critical race theory as well, a separate related issue, this was fringe stuff in American universities in the 1970s, and it's now at the very heart of our institutions. How has that played out over the last, let's say, 40 or 50 years, but really accelerated in the last five or 10?
00:26:57
Speaker
Well, I think social media has, has done the acceleration for us. I think David Bowie was interviewed a long time ago and he said that the internet was really exciting, but absolutely terrifying and unbelievable. Yeah. Just so prophetic, isn't it? It's just so brilliant. So the internet has just.
00:27:16
Speaker
made it explode but there has been a an academic creep and a lot of the radical feminists and women with more disciplined views they they were just eked out of universities a long time ago and many of the women that were left aren't actually standing up for women so women's studies changed to gender studies and it wasn't like there was a mass exodus of women from universities refusing to teach it they went along with it. I think women are quite easy to
00:27:43
Speaker
coerce into these things if you put the right sort of language through it. Oh, there's just so many threads to this. We don't seem to know in academia what are men supposed to be? If you're in academia and you're in humanities and gender studies and so on, what exactly do we want from men? We seem to want them emotional but stoic.
00:28:03
Speaker
We seem to want them to defend us, but it's almost like we want them to be women. And I say that knowing that loads of women who support what I do will be annoyed by that. But I think this is an academic thing. This isn't what everyday people want. This isn't how everyday people talk. But these are the narratives that are pushed as if, you know, if you're intelligent,
00:28:23
Speaker
And if you're successful, if you understand the world and you're not some lowly manual worker or office worker, then you would understand that really the only difference between men and women are the sort of the strength of our muscle fibers, as opposed to we are actually different. And it does actually work.
Motherhood vs Workforce Society
00:28:40
Speaker
And we just have to find a new way of doing that because making this whole world
00:28:45
Speaker
in this kind of needing money, so we all need money, we trade, this was human evolution, we trade, we need money, we need houses, we need things, we need food, etc. And we've set up this system of doing it which is going out to work and earning money.
00:29:00
Speaker
And then in order for women to be equal in that world, we decided that women also needed to go out and earn the same money doing the same jobs in the same way. Well, we're not the same. I don't actually know if too many people are improved vastly by doing jobs five days a week that they hate. But there's a way of making women equal
00:29:19
Speaker
without losing the power of the thing that I think four fifths of the world's women do, that's the most wonderful thing we were ever doing, and that's become mothers. And we've sort of, in order to, we traded out the value of motherhood, even if it ever had any, but we traded any value that it could have in order to go out and join the workforce, which I don't think at all answers your question. And I don't know where I was going with that.
00:29:46
Speaker
I must admit I got lost in what you were saying because I think it's such a lovely sentiment and it's unfortunately something that we don't hear enough of. I am reflecting on a similar comment that was made by Constance and Kisson in a podcast a couple of weeks ago with us and he said, the one thing we're not talking about that we should be is a positive vision for the future, particularly for men. So we need to get past that stage of saying, please, woke activists are idiots.
00:30:13
Speaker
Think for most reasonable sane people, that's relatively obvious. And we need to get to the point of saying, well, look, if you're a 20-year-old bloke and you keep hearing from 30, 40, 50-year-old people that these left-wing activists are spouting nonsense, fine, all well and good.
00:30:30
Speaker
But what should I be thinking? What's the positive message for how I should be thinking about my values, about how I structure my life, about all that sort of thing, how I treat women? Unfortunately, I think the right has questions to answer in that whilst I think they've let the left take advantage of a vacuum because they haven't created that positive vision for the future. And to your point, on face value, a lot of the LGBT stuff, a lot of the woke stuff more generally is very well branded. It's all about kindness and love, and you can be sucked into that.
00:30:57
Speaker
if you don't actually do the research around what does this mean when you actually look under the hood. I'm also thinking about a group which surprisingly poses what you do. Well, there are many young women who oppose what you do and what you say. How do you rationalize that reality? I think a lot of people who would have seen the footage of you in Auckland would have noticed that there were a lot of young women who were opposing you. How does that play out when you are a women's rights activist?
00:31:22
Speaker
Oh, these young women, they have no idea what it actually means to be a woman without the trappings of youth and beauty. And these things fade and you're just left with this female body and it changes as well when you become a parent. So when you become a mother, you have
00:31:38
Speaker
I don't believe that this is a bad thing at all i think it's the way it should be but you do lose yourself somewhat because you become somebody's mother and that somebody is the most important thing in your life above and beyond yourself the life takes on a totally different meaning and i don't think when you're a young woman and men being nice to you cuz basically they're doing what they're told.
00:32:00
Speaker
And so they're okay. They need to find out what it feels like when they say no. And I'm, you know, I was a young woman. I'm not particularly unpleasant to look at. And I would frequently you find yourself in a situation with men and it's
00:32:16
Speaker
I don't need to say not all men, but when we sort of talk about, oh, men get demonized or whatever, if we look around the world at the most terrible things that are happening, I'm sorry, but it is men. It is men doing it to women or men doing it to each other or men doing it to populations or whatever, but it is men. But for these young women, sorry, when I was young, I would say, go out and then this is, even after I had kids,
00:32:42
Speaker
somebody might decide to tell me exactly what they'd like to do to me. Like some man would think it was charming to tell me exactly what he might like to do to me sexually. Or I'd be walking down the street, I went to an evening once and I was going back to my car and I got circled by a group of drunk men or I had a red jacket on and they all decided to start singing to me.
00:33:02
Speaker
And it's all quite friendly and bantery, isn't it? Until you think, well, if I smile, I'm encouraging. If I scowl, then I'm a miserable cow. If I try to get through, are they going to touch me? Are they going to stop me? Is that going to escalate into a really bad situation?
00:33:18
Speaker
So these are the sorts of things that women do face. And these young women, yet, they're going to find themselves in a situation where they're going to have to rely on their instincts. They're going to feel afraid. And I don't wish upon them, but it will happen. They're going to feel afraid. And do they tell that man who calls himself a woman to get himself and his penis out of their space? Or are they going to have to pretend that it's all wonderful? And either way, they're going to have some sort of trauma. But I think ultimately with these young women,
00:33:47
Speaker
I say to them often, you may hate us, but you will become us. You will become old. You will become somewhat irrelevant. You will become unattractive to the opposite sex. You just will. And it's an inevitability.
Future Realization for Young Women
00:34:03
Speaker
And I wonder if that's what they hate the most about us, because we mirror what happens to women when we no longer have these advantages of youth and beauty.
00:34:12
Speaker
Couple more questions. Questions specifically on trans as a medical problem. Do you think there are legitimate cases of gender dysphoria? And if so, what is society's role, if any, in supporting people who suffer from it?
00:34:26
Speaker
I think there are lots of disassociative dysphoric conditions. One would be anorexia, for example. And as far as I was aware, we don't give anorexics a gastric band. So I think if somebody is focused on any part of their body, which they feel if they could just control that part of their body, if they could change it, that that will mean an answer to all of their ills. Then I think we have a duty as a society to give them
00:34:53
Speaker
therapy counseling and frankly something else to think about. And I think that will resolve itself. You know, there's not people living in the Maasai who have gender dysphoria. There's not people living in sort of places where survival and other things to think about. Busy, busy days. There are not people that have enough time in their day
00:35:14
Speaker
in those situations to think about whether or not they think they should have a penis. So I think the majority of people who claim gender dysphoria don't have it at all. I think it's a social contagion.
00:35:24
Speaker
And I think for most males, it is a sexual fetish and they call it gender dysphoria, but it's not, it's just an extreme fetish. We know that that fetish would also be pedophilia. So we know that men who were pedophiles who wanted to rape children joined the Catholic church and became priests for their entire lives. They, they moved their entire lives around the capacity to access children. So I don't think we should, we should pretend that
00:35:52
Speaker
an autoglyphile, somebody who has a sexual fetish of being aroused as a woman. I don't think we should think that they wouldn't even chop off their own penis. There's nothing that they wouldn't do to be able to live out their fetish. So in answer to your question, therapy and just, we get to the root of trauma. If your mind is telling you that your body shouldn't be the way it is, then that's a mind problem, not a body problem.
00:36:19
Speaker
Why do you think we have reached a point in society where we treat something like anorexia as a disease and we treat gender dysphoria as something to empower?
00:36:32
Speaker
Because there's some very powerful men with autogyneophilia, I think Jennifer Pritzker is one of them, Martine Rothblatt. These men are using vulnerable teenagers as human shields so that we don't look at the fact, the reason they dress as women is because they have a fetish.
00:36:54
Speaker
And so I think it's because it happens to men or doesn't as a case maybe, but as opposed to think it happens to men. Once something happens to men, it's an easier message. So racism, for example, I think if people were just racist against women, I don't know if we would have made any gains in that movement. I think if people were just homophobic towards the lesbians, I don't think they would have made any gains in that movement because
00:37:18
Speaker
As I really hate these messages, but I think they just bear out to be true all the time. And actually, when it comes to situations to do with women, we're not even heard. It's like we're speaking a different language sometimes. Our squeaky voices can't actually penetrate through the through the ears of power. And so
00:37:36
Speaker
That's what I think. And I'm not denying that there hasn't been a feminization of education and a feminization of certainly higher and further education because I think there have. And I think the feminization comes in the form of where it's delivered, which is covert. Women do psychological warfare. So we will ostracize. We will spread rumors. We will do all those things where we can still be kind, which is like the whole LGBT thing.
00:38:01
Speaker
it's be kind but actually there's a really sinister undertone and I think that's how women operate whereas men are more likely a they do teasing and banter and they train in it as teenagers and I did too because most of my friends were boys but that's that's that's why I think this movement
00:38:18
Speaker
when people talk about feminism has kind of corrupted stuff, I think there is something and I think, oh, I'm going to go into something else, but there's something called, it's called something else, but it's called the cheeky fucker syndrome. And that's when a beta mammal, so a lion who isn't the alpha male in the pack, will adopt the behaviors and mannerisms of a female in order to bypass the male, the alpha male
00:38:42
Speaker
and mate with the females and so it's a known concept in mammals and I think I don't know quite how to express it but that's what it's that's what this kind of LGBT stuff feels to me and this all the feminization of our further education and so on it feels like a beta male thing so it's still a male thing
00:39:03
Speaker
but it's something to do with feminizing and i'm sure i could probably talk about that for about the next three hours but i won't i just i'll just put it out there because it's sometimes i just instinctively feel these things are to be true but they they require a lot more reason
00:39:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think there is an element of truth in that, and the beta male thing particularly resonates with me. I don't think it's a coincidence that over the last 20 years, the idea of masculinity has been attacked.
00:39:34
Speaker
And then again, that's created a vacuum and there's a real uncertainty around what are positive masculine values. And I think that that vacuum has been filled with some really unusual and troubling alternatives to the traditional notions of masculinity. It's a worry.
00:39:53
Speaker
I have a couple of things I want to finish on. The first is a relatively recent announcement from you that you want to set up a new political party, the party of women.
Formation of the Party of Women
00:40:05
Speaker
Tell us about that.
00:40:06
Speaker
Well, I want to repeal the GRA in the UK, but this attack on women's rights is exactly the same the world over. And so first of all, I'm going to run in the UK. I'm going to run against kissed armour. I'm encouraging as many women as possible to run in police and crimes commissioner seats.
00:40:27
Speaker
councils and MPs. So that we basically, there is not a single political race in the country that doesn't have to deal with this issue because that's how this thing has happened because nobody's talking about it. So I want it talked about everywhere. So that's why I'm running. And I want women to feel some sort of foothold into the political power. So I'm standing against Keir Starmer to force him to have a conversation. I don't expect Darwin, I think he's in the safest Labour seat in the country.
00:40:55
Speaker
But winning for me is forcing the conversation out into the open. And every politician in the next general election, I want them to be asked the question, what is a woman and not get away with anything other than saying exactly what they think on that issue. And they either say that they don't know what a woman is or they say something woolly, which will make them look stupid. Or they'll have to say a woman is an adult human female.
00:41:18
Speaker
which will mean they'll get accused of transphobia. And then we can really see this, we will really see this movement for what it is. And then I want, you know, there's other women in other parts of the world that want to also join and I don't see why we couldn't like maybe the movement like the Greens. They have political parties everywhere. They have political representation all over the world. And that's what I think the party of women should also have.
00:41:42
Speaker
Two questions to finish, and they're questions that I pulled from the tweet that I mentioned at the very start of the podcast. The first was, your support on social media has doubled, but so has trans rights support on the woke left. How do you think the campaign is going and what would you like to see happen?
00:42:01
Speaker
Oh, what would I like to see happen? I would like more people to understand what the issue is because I know that I'm right. And so I know that most people don't want their teenage daughter to go and play sport at the weekend, like a contact sport and be against male opponents. Most people don't want their elderly relatives, female relatives when they need personal care to have somebody six foot two in a dress called Janet turn up.
00:42:29
Speaker
And also I think there's a lot of people that live and that live and I just say, okay, so you get a professional babysitter, your kid's four and six years old, professional babysitter called Lucy, grandmother, and she turns up, sent by an agency, and actually, Lucy,
00:42:45
Speaker
is a 56-year-old man in a bad wig and a bad dress. Are you still leaving your kids? No, you're not. Nobody would. There's not a single person that actually likes their children who would leave them in that situation. So I just want us to be able to talk frankly about what it is. And trans activists may gain momentum, but that's because I think we are in the final throes where
00:43:10
Speaker
The gridlock on information is finally broken and people are beginning to understand what this cult is actually asking for. My final question, it's a question that I found quite touching when I read it.
Encouraging Women to Speak Out
00:43:23
Speaker
What advice do you have for the woman who agrees with you but isn't as brave as you? Fear your silence more than your worth. If you stay quiet and everyone stays quiet,
00:43:34
Speaker
More girls get double mastectomies, more children get sterilized, more women lose their rights, and your silence will just breed more silence. And then eventually none of us can speak. And I think that should make you far more afraid than if you speak up. That's what I would say. Just speak. The words, when they come out of your mouth, you will feel liberated in a way that you had no idea will make you feel, you won't feel afraid once you've said it. It's really powerful to say words that you are holding. It's really, really powerful.
00:44:03
Speaker
Well, Kelly J, I can say with absolute certainty that there are so many women who will listen to this and who will be empowered and inspired by that message. I make no claims to objectivity in this conversation. I think what you're doing is extraordinary. I think you are an inspiration for young women and young men everywhere. I wish you all the best with the new party. We will include
00:44:31
Speaker
the links to your website, standingforwomen.com, as well as how people can buy merchandise to continue to help you fundraise so you can spread this message further. Keep doing what you're doing because it is a wonderful cause that you are now very much leading. Thank you for coming on, Australiana.
00:44:48
Speaker
Thank you so much. It was an absolute joy. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening to this episode of Australiana. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a rating and a review. And if you really enjoyed the show, head to spectator.com.au forward slash join. Sign up for a digital subscription today and you'll get your first month absolutely free.