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Thinking Dumb to Think Better – a conversation with counterintuitive thinker David Carson
13 Plays10 days ago
Perhaps a better way to move from Thought to Thing?
In this episode of The Independent Minds, host Michael Millward sits down with entrepreneur and author David Carson to explore a counterintuitive idea: sometimes the smartest way to solve a problem is to think dumb.
Drawing on examples from history like Ignaz-Semmelweis, innovative businesses and his own career building design‑led media businesses — and from the mental models behind his book Dummify: How Ridiculous Thinking Can Solve Big Problems — David explains why unconventional, naïve, even “ridiculous” ideas often outperform the polished, over‑engineered ones. As he puts it: “The things that felt silly or counterintuitive tended to be the things that worked more often than not.”
Together, Michael and David unpack why workplaces suppress these ideas, how fear and conditioning make people hide their curiosity, and what leaders can do to build cultures where “dumb thinking” becomes a powerful creative tool. From Airbnb’s air mattress origins to the accidental invention of the chocolate chip cookie, the conversation shows how breakthroughs often come from mistakes, missteps, and moments most people would dismiss.
This episode is for anyone interested in innovation, organisational culture, or simply rethinking how ideas become reality. As Michael notes, “We won’t be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.”
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Transcript
Introduction to The Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. It's the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process so easy. All the details are in the description.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abyssaida and people who think outside the box about how work works.
00:00:28
Speaker
with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for
Meet David Carson: Author of 'Dummify'
00:00:32
Speaker
everyone. I'm your host, Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abysida. Today, I'm going to be learning about why sometimes the best option is to think dumb, from David Carson, the author of Dumbify, How Ridiculous Thinking Can Solve Big Problems.
00:00:51
Speaker
David is a listener to the Independent Minds who has become a guest on the Independent Minds. So thank you very much. David is based in New York City, the city that never sleeps.
00:01:04
Speaker
I wouldn't know. I've been driven through a couple of boroughs of New York on my way to Connecticut, but I've never spent a night in the city itself. If I was going to visit New York for a sleepless night, or maybe that should be Seattle, I will make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club.
00:01:21
Speaker
Because at the Ultimate Travel Club, I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and so many other travel-related purchases. You can do the same.
00:01:33
Speaker
There is a link in the description. Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to.
Entrepreneurial Ventures and Mistakes
00:01:46
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think. but we are hoping to make you think. Hello, David. Hi, Michael. How are you? I am extremely well today. Thank you very much, David. And I hope that you can say the same.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. The sun is shining. I'm ah i'm feeling good. Brilliant. Please, could we start with you giving us a little bit of an introduction to who you are and how you ended up doing what you do now?
The Power of 'Dummify' and Mental Models
00:02:12
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, my pleasure. My career has primarily been as an entrepreneur building design-led, media-led businesses. That has led me to do everything from starting a television network here in the States to building a video network to a digital video network.
00:02:31
Speaker
So also doing a lot of media and marketing for clients like American Express, Nike. My career has primarily been a series of mistakes that have sort of led me to different different paths that somehow seem to work out okay.
00:02:45
Speaker
Oftentimes sort of frustrating me along the way of wondering how I had taken a left turn and gotten to the place that that I'm at, which always made me very puzzled and led me to think a little a little longer, a little harder at at what I was actually trying to accomplish and and in how I was essentially running my business and running running my life. and And that sort of led me to these series of mental models that sort of became my own that I call Dummify, but it's it's really a series of these
00:03:17
Speaker
but I would call dumb thinking tools, mental models that sort of help me organize how to create new products or really how to go from thought to thing in ways that are more successful than what I would consider to be a much more smart or analytical approach, which can sometimes just really help improve products at the margin. They can certainly create an incrementalized version of of progress but if you're starting from scratch and going from thought to thing it usually helps to use these dumb thinking tools to help get you there and so that's
00:03:56
Speaker
That's sort of the the topic of the book for Dummify and of my
Embracing Silly Ideas in Business
00:04:02
Speaker
newsletter. The same name also called Dummify that comes out every week. I like the expression thought to thing. That's an expression that we use an awful lot in a former business of mine with a partner.
00:04:15
Speaker
Actually, Andrew Deichman, who is my partner at Newsstand from from Mother Agency. There's a lot of mythology right around it. There's so much written about. how startups happen, how businesses create new things.
00:04:29
Speaker
And yet it is just pretty simple. Like you're you're really going from an idea right to actually making it real. One thing that I always find so fascinating when going from thought to thing is obviously what's the thought? That very much is going to influence, obviously, right what the thing is. yes I noticed, at least in my career, that the things that felt like they were silly or ridiculous or counterintuitive tended to be the things that worked more often than not.
00:04:58
Speaker
there There are so many companies that really kind of kill those ideas very early on.
Valuing Dumb Questions in Organizations
00:05:02
Speaker
And it's kind of a shame when that happens if the culture isn't really set up right to to really handle or deal with ideas that feel like they are counterintuitive.
00:05:11
Speaker
But when you're when you're in the right place with the right people, you can create some some really spectacular products from that. There's just so much history and use cases, case studies that show you where that's actually true.
00:05:25
Speaker
When speaking with a venture capitalist, pretty good pattern recognition and ah and a good track record. you know They will tell you that when they put money into a new company, it could be one that has just an incredibly ridiculous idea, or it could be something that they would consider to be a really smart idea.
00:05:43
Speaker
And yet the one that may succeed is kind of a parody. It could be that dumb one. It could be that that smart one. So that at least tells me that there are some places in our culture where that's something that is true for them and they're willing to put their money behind it. right to to make that make that a reality you talk about culture and the right sort of situation and having the right people the right idea and all those sort of things i'm thinking well why can't any situation be the right situation why can't any person be the right person and then i'm reminded that while we live in an or in ah an evolving ai world we don't quite yet really understand how ai is is going to work but when you talk about venture capitalists
00:06:28
Speaker
investing money also thinking about the situations where people like to invest in something that is successful so if it happened once and it was successful we'll do the next thing based on the first thing and it will be successful we don't want to be too far outside of the box in our thinking because there, there is risk.
Curiosity as a Tool for Innovation
00:06:52
Speaker
And we seem to live in a risk-averse world. So how would you create a dummify culture within an organization? There's sort of a misplaced idea about how successful things become products or services for cultures, in particular for a company, let's say.
00:07:11
Speaker
If you are the type of company where Asking really dumb questions is not only okay, but they're actually pondered right and and talked about is pretty important.
00:07:23
Speaker
But for everybody in that room, there's just so much fear around trying to offer a dumb idea that might be in their head. they just They won't say it out loud, right? You could be persecuted in some companies for that.
00:07:37
Speaker
And when I think about how we're raised, like your parents, your teachers want you to be smart. And we're always sort of guiding our sort of thought process into not necessarily being smart, but trying to appear to be right.
00:07:53
Speaker
There's a difference between being smart and being creative. and a difference between being smart and being right. The smart very often just means you're conforming with what everybody else thinks. And in some ways, if you transfer that into the other sense in which the word smart is used, you're dressed smartly. You're dressed very much like everyone else. the You're smart, as in you're you all look smart, you all think smart, you all act smart, but you're all being the same. And what you're saying in Dumify is that having that radical idea isn't necessarily need to be a earth shattering idea. can be something that's just outside of the norm. I suppose we don't give people permission to to talk about their dumb ideas, do we?
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's how we're raised to think that If I have a dumb thought in my head, i probably shouldn't vocalize it because i'm I'm most likely going to be punished. I'm not going to be rewarded for having that dumb idea.
00:09:00
Speaker
all you can say is I've had an idea. i have a question. i have an idea. There is something that goes on in our head that tells us that is a dumb idea. It's a dumb question. And that stops us from sharing the idea or asking the question. That's right. So there's some form of conditioning that happens subconsciously, both from both the person who's been conditioned, which is all of us, and the people who are doing the condition, which again,
00:09:27
Speaker
is all of us. There's something that happens, which means don't rock the boat, stay within this framework, do as you're told, be sensible. Yeah, that's right.
00:09:38
Speaker
It's always fascinating that when you meet somebody who you just you know just has an incredibly high IQ, what you'll often notice is a very childlike kind of way of of thinking.
00:09:51
Speaker
They will ask the really dumb questions, not because they think they're dumb questions, It's because they truly want to understand whatever problem right they've been asked to to solve.
00:10:02
Speaker
They will also sit a little bit longer with ideas that feel very orthogonal to the situation. they won't immediately bypass them and say, oh, that's dumb. Like there's there's like a fear factor that's just gone, right?
00:10:17
Speaker
They're not afraid, right, to to sort of stay in that area of thinking, which is what I call dumb thinking. Dumb thinking isn't about, you know, having a low IQ. dumb Dumb thinking is really about recognizing that all of us are capable of having just these really ridiculous ideas as ways to solve problems.
00:10:37
Speaker
But
Success Stories from Ridiculous Ideas
00:10:38
Speaker
a lot of us simply shoo them away, right? we We won't even ponder them. We won't really think them through. What I've sort of learned is that similar to, you know, you're awfully sore, and right? there's There's that sports massage right person who will find that knot. And when they do, you know, you're you're going to sort of shriek in pain like, ooh, don't go there.
00:10:58
Speaker
what you find is is you know that's that's when they know, oh, that's that's the place that I should dig in, right? That's where they should really do the work. But what you're talking about, I think, in many ways is that people need to be curious ah in order to be dumb. The person who's high high IQ, they're asking questions which may appear dumb. They're not seeing that question as a dumb question. They're not worried about the reaction that other people will have to their question or their comment. What they're interested in is the fact that they're curious and they need to know, they want to know.
00:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, and they're using muscles that a lot of people don't use. So as an example, when you have that dumb thought in your head and if you're mindful enough to know that you've had it, your reaction is to shoo it away, right? Because it makes you uncomfortable or you fear that by saying it right will make people in the room uncomfortable.
00:11:52
Speaker
People who have much more of a dumb thinking mindset They look at that and they say, well, wait, why does this make me uncomfortable? And that's usually a sign that that's not something to throw away. That's something to investigate.
00:12:04
Speaker
To your point, that's when you get really curious. Like, why does that make me uncomfortable? What is it about this idea that actually feels like it's somehow counterintuitive or potentially wrong or or dumb or ridiculous? That's where you want to investigate. There's something, there's usually something there.
00:12:18
Speaker
From a manager's perspective, one of things that they can do in order to foster that curiosity in other people is to show curiosity in the people that on their team and in other teams and ask questions, which can come across as checking the understanding of the person who reports to you of a particular situation.
00:12:39
Speaker
Questions can appear dumb, but if they come from a place of curiosity, they're actually helping someone else to understand what it is that they're saying to you as well. Yeah, that's right.
00:12:51
Speaker
Everybody has the capacity to be dumb, probably more so than they have the capacity to be smart. But the way that they actually utilize that thought process can actually solve the problem that's that's in front of you simply by allowing yourself to be more curious. It's like there's there's a whole part of your brain that you've sort of let be dormant or you've ignored.
00:13:15
Speaker
And there's a whole territory of solution sets that are available to you if you were to open your aperture a little bit wider and consider that those things are actually quite quite valid. And there are all sorts of of stories of you know where this is true that should give you confidence. We've talked about the theory. Now let's talk about the practice and the the putting this into action. Who's had the biggest, dumbest thought, which has turned them into a billionaire?
00:13:39
Speaker
We see it all around us. it's It's so common that that we might not even think about it. so Something in the last 10 years would have been like a company like Airbnb, which is a total obvious. like To have an idea that says you know people should stay at the time in an air mattress in my living room. When there are events in town, they're going to want to run out my room and and rent an air mattress. That's how Airbnb gets started.
00:14:03
Speaker
Imagine having that conversation with your friends. Oh, that's really funny. That's really silly. Most people would just let that go, right? Yeah. But they didn't. They decided to put agency behind that really dumb idea. It felt like there was something there. So they were able to put that into motion and and really refine and iterate along the way.
00:14:22
Speaker
Another funny example is in a water brand called Liquid Death. And it's just water in a can. But what they've decided to do is sort of reframe water as not this clean mountain spring, right, kind of product, but rather something that you might want to drink at a Norwegian death metal concert. like it's It's just packaged really ridiculously.
00:14:47
Speaker
Again, that could have been a conversation that people had with one another. right It could certainly see go to a pub and we'll have a beer and we'll say, hey, you know it'd be funny is if we repackaged water as liquid death, we'd laugh right and we'd and we'd move on.
00:15:02
Speaker
But there was something about this crew that said, wait a minute, Like let's put agency behind this and and try and stand this up and see if this see if this works. All of these ideas aren't really like, you know, like they're all ridiculous ideas or or very silly ideas.
00:15:18
Speaker
You see this in science all the time. you know Nobel laureates tend to start off with something that everybody in their field thinks is ridiculous. Decades later, they win a Nobel Prize because they've done the work and people have come around to realize that what they thought was impossible or dumb was actually a great idea.
00:15:36
Speaker
You know, I go all the way back to, you know, the poor guy who offered to the world that if we're going to operate on people and put our hands inside of people from delivering babies to opening up chest cavities, we should really just wash our hands. That was seen as ridiculous. That guy was put in an insane asylum for something that is just so common knowledge today. It's what saved the world in the COVID pandemic is washing your hands, wash your hands.
00:16:04
Speaker
Sometimes there can be such a simplicity, right, to to something. Or other times it can be that somebody has just sort of synthesized different points of view and and have sort of pulled things together that that don't make sense to others. but But what gives them the confidence to say, no, no, I'm going to lean into this.
00:16:23
Speaker
And I'm going to push this a little bit further to see if this this could actually work. So there's a part of it, which is the thinking outside the box, thinking independently, challenging the status quo to have the idea in the first place.
00:16:35
Speaker
And then you come down to this almost practicalities of saying, yes, there is something in this. I could invest in testing out the idea. And then you get into the, well, if fail quickly, fail big and fail quickly to make sure that the idea does have some form of legs and is likely to work.
00:16:54
Speaker
When you say, yeah, who would have thought that one of the biggest hospitality brands in the world doesn't own any hotels, but it has all these thousands of rooms everywhere.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, it is a daft idea, as is the Uber and the sort of using your private car to give other people a lift and charging them for it. Yeah, very similar.
00:17:17
Speaker
You know, the startup world and the venture capital world, right, that fuels that, that's just sort of like the mode that most people operate in. Like when I say venture capitalists don't know if it's the dumb idea or the really smart idea right that that will be the winner in the portfolio, you know that's that's real.
Accidental Discoveries and Their Impact
00:17:33
Speaker
you know that's That's how new markets are essentially made.
00:17:37
Speaker
i still feel like most people just have a misunderstanding of of what it actually takes to go from from that thought to thing that we talked about. And sometimes it gets really mythologized as well. It's like lightning strikes on high. Oh, I've had an idea.
00:17:51
Speaker
Whether or not you put agency to it, right, is is definitely a thing that matters. But there's sort of a mythology around how things happen. And and the reality is a lot of these things do happen by a mistake, right? They happen because somebody was trying to do something.
00:18:05
Speaker
But in trying to do it, they did it really poorly. And because of that, right, they actually made something completely new. Like post-it pads where somebody was trying to develop a new glue and it wouldn't stick anything and then thought this glue could be a post-it pad.
00:18:19
Speaker
Absolutely. Or I think about things like the chocolate chip cookie. We would not enjoy the chocolate chip cookie today i had the person that that actually made the cookie not made the mistake. The the origin of the chocolate chip cookie is that and she was she was trying to make her famous at the time chocolate cookie, but because she didn't have the chocolate that she would use for that, that would melt and and make this, I guess, delicious chocolate cookie, she instead had these Nestle packs of of chocolate bars.
00:18:49
Speaker
and decided to to chop them up, right? Hoping that they would would melt and be fine for a cookie, but it wasn't. They sort of stayed kind of firm and and that created the world's first chocolate chip cookie, all by mistake.
00:19:02
Speaker
But rather than throwing it away, again, this is sort of like when I think about dumb thinking, some people will see their mistakes even and they'll say, oh, that's no good. They'll toss it. But in these instances, you see that, oh, wait, this mistake is actually amazing. Like I should i should maybe pull focus right to to that.
00:19:21
Speaker
and And not many people are wired that way. And yet we have lots of products right that have been created that way. There are other things that happen where people will actually create things by accident.
00:19:32
Speaker
I call this the make it worse method. the potato chip was invented this way. This is sort of what turned me on to this because the story was so funny. This this was like back in in in in the 19th century here in the United States.
00:19:46
Speaker
And there was a chef who had a customer who just hated his French fries. Every time he he would come in, he would he would order his French fries and tell them how terrible they are. And the chef was trying to improve them. Each time the customer came in, he was hoping that you know he would have improved them. And I guess that just wasn't the case every time the customer complained.
00:20:07
Speaker
So the chef got so frustrated that he decided to to make the worst French fry. And so he cut of cut them really thin, fried them too much. He over salted them.
00:20:19
Speaker
Everybody loved them. Those were no longer French fries. He had just invented the potato chip. What we would call in the yeah UK crisps. Right. yeah He just created crisps. it should It gives me confidence.
Breaking Norms for Unconventional Thinking
00:20:31
Speaker
to know that when there is sort of that that dumb thought that that comes into my head, or if there's something that felt like generated from a mistake, or if I feel stuck and I want to you know just try and make this worse to see if I could actually make something new out of it. It just it gives me different ways of thinking about how to create something new.
00:20:52
Speaker
I suppose at the end of the day, what we're talking about is allowing people to break out of the conventional ways of thinking, creating the right environment, creating the right sort of feedback that tells people that it's okay to think outside of the box. That's one of the things we want. What we want is to be curious and and the what in the questions that you ask, in the feedback that you give, in the whole way in which you try to solve problems. Be curious and you're more likely to end up in a situation where the first time that you think about it, you might be thinking, no, that's that's dumb. But once you start vocalizing it or writing it down, it starts to make some sort of sense and it's sharing that information in that way, which enables people to see beyond the initial...
00:21:43
Speaker
dumbness to this has got legs and we should do something with it. Right. It's something to work at, right? Like it's, if you're going to build your dumb muscle, if you will, the idea that, that you would really utilize mental models that kind of help you get there.
00:21:59
Speaker
Part of it is just starting and just being really self-aware that that you that you have this idea. When you talk about these mental models or these dumb muscles, explain what you mean. for For me, I use 12 of these things pretty pretty often. That's kind of the the set.
00:22:14
Speaker
Some of them are quite quite simple. like One is just called the uncomplicate method. and That's really when you're stuck. and It's really to cut through complexity and to try and find the simplest solution possible. right That's sort of your classic keep it simple, stupid kind of mentality. It's like,
00:22:29
Speaker
how How can I actually uncomplicate the idea of what this of what this problem is? Because when when we have a problem that we need to solve, we tend to think it needs a complex solution, when very often that's not the case. The smart way of looking at the problem is to look at how complex it is.
00:22:46
Speaker
It's going to cost a lot of money. It's going to take a lot of time. It's going to be all of these various different people will have to be involved. The dumb way of doing it is to keep it simple. and break it down into its inn individual parts and then solve each one of those. I suppose almost as if that when you are the expert in something, when you've developed something and it doesn't work, you almost know too much about it to be able to solve it.
00:23:10
Speaker
That's right. that's what That's another model, which is essentially the beginner's mind. models. Like how can you approach this with a new perspective? if If you're too much of an expert in this field, you might be in this best practices, right? Kind of territory where that's just the way we've always done it, right? Kind of approach.
00:23:27
Speaker
So this is how do you actually approach it with fresh eyes, sort of free from assumptions and free from expertise bias for
Challenging the Norm to Improve Experiences
00:23:35
Speaker
sure. Yeah. I suppose also the smart way of looking at a problem or looking at a solution and and knowing got the right solution is that if you are that expert, if you are thinking in a smart way rather than a dumb way and you're over-complicating the problem, your solution is going to be over-complicated as well. But the challenge I suppose is that you might never actually get to the solution because you're never really satisfied.
00:24:00
Speaker
That's right. And you actually might be thinking about the problem all wrong. So like as an example, you know This is a ah a funny story from the 80s where there was an office in Houston that had notoriously slow elevators, according to the people that were in that building. And they really complained about it all the time. right And so management finally decided they needed to do something about it so of course right they bring in the elevator experts and they they start formulating a plan of how could we speed these things up do we need to add more elevators right but then there was one building manager who just said wait before we do any of that before we spend all this money i just want to try an idea
00:24:40
Speaker
And so what this person did is they they put mirrors all over where people stand for the elevators and then also put mirrors inside of the elevators themselves. And the complaint stopped because people were fine at just looking at themselves, right, going up the elevators. It no longer felt to them.
00:24:56
Speaker
like this ride was too long, that it was taking too much time. You know, there's a really interesting solution, but if you were to to look at the problem all wrong, right, you're gonna spend a lot of money and a lot of time.
00:25:08
Speaker
So the problem wasn't the time that it took, the problem was the the psychological impact of the journey where people felt isolated, being able to see themselves and be able to see other people without actually having to look at the person made the ride more psychologically comfortable.
00:25:25
Speaker
there's ah There's a Brit, Rory Sutherland. he He always had a a funny story about how people were complaining that the the train ride from London to Paris was just too long.
00:25:37
Speaker
And very similarly, right, they came up with this idea of spending billions of dollars to make the trains faster. And yet he came up with an idea and said, wait, instead of spending like $8 billion, right, to do this to the train, what if instead we hired, you know, the world's top supermodels and then had them hand out the world's most expensive champagne to everybody on board?
00:25:58
Speaker
Not only would you save money, but people actually might ask for that train trip to be longer. Yeah. It's just such a funny way to think about how you would actually solve that problem.
00:26:09
Speaker
I feel like a a lot of times we we end up really trying to solve problems in in fairly complex ways that you know like the smart solution would say, let's speed up let's speed up that train. right The dumb solution would be, hold on. like let's Let's really think about this in ah in a different way. I think the world would would actually be be better if more people at least considered those ideas more, or at least wouldn't just think, oh, that's funny, but I'll never mention that in a room because I'm likely to get fired.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yes, I can totally get what you're meaning. The problem is not actually the speed of the train. The problem was the boredom of the people on the train. You... eliminate that and you make the the journey more interesting, more human in many ways, and you remove the problem.
00:26:56
Speaker
yeah It's one of those, i wish I'd had that idea type of moment, isn't it? Yeah. I think about it always in terms of, again, how we're raised because we're constantly geared towards how am I going to optimize right to make this thing better? and that And that typically, runs in that realm of the physical where it needs to be faster, it needs to be stronger, right? And oftentimes, it the solution doesn't necessarily have to to to be there. know It can be more psychological, be much more of a perceptive, right? ah Change instead of, right? A physical change. and I just find so many people just don't even consider, right? they'll thought Their bias, right? Is is so stuck in in this one mode of of thinking,
Conclusion: Embrace Curiosity and Unconventional Thinking
00:27:35
Speaker
right? The smart thinking mode that
00:27:37
Speaker
I would contend that you're a much smarter person if you actually at least use the other part of the brain that you've you know left alone and left left dormant and think about how dumb thinking actually applies to to real problems that you have.
00:27:50
Speaker
Yes, I think it completely changes the way in which you you look at a problem. And you know, David, it has been so interesting. I really do appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. Thank you.
00:28:01
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, David Carson, the author of Dummify, How Ridiculous Thinking Can Solve Big Problems.
00:28:16
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abasida.co.uk. There's a link in the description. The Zencastr system has, as always, been very efficient today. But if you're listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and have experienced technical issues, you need to investigate this from a dumb perspective.
00:28:35
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And think about transferring to 3, the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:28:55
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That description is well worth reading. I am sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as David and I have enjoyed making it.
00:29:06
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Please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:29:25
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Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.