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Ep.121 Interspecies Garden Relationships with Matthieu Mehuys
57 Plays5 days ago
I sit down with regenerative garden designer and landscape architect Matthew Mehuys to rethink what a “garden” actually is. We move past domination language and into relationship—how to design living spaces where humans, plants, soil, fungi, and wildlife co-create. We unpack low-maintenance (read: ecosystem-literate) design, right plant/right place, and succession as the real secret to beauty with ease.
We also touch garden history (from walled formality to naturalistic planting), why suburbs can be biodiversity hotspots, and how companies benefit when biophilic spaces nurture people, not just property values. If you’ve ever felt the tension between aesthetics and aliveness, this one will shift your vocabulary—and your planting plan.
Topics Covered about Regenerative Garden Design
➡️ Design as relationship: from “controlling Nature” to co-creating with plant kin
➡️ The true path to low maintenance: soil health, succession, and species fit
➡️ Urban and corporate spaces that invite touch, awe, and ongoing interaction
➡️ How language shapes design choices—and client outcomes
Chapters
00:00 Exploring the Garden as Co-Creation
08:19 The Art of Listening Below Ground
16:37 Microbial Kinship and Nonlinear Growth
25:06 Letting Nature Take the Lead
28:01 Podcast with Zencastr (Ad)
33:21 Interspecies Dialogue
41:44 Reclaiming Wonder in the Garden
Resources Mentioned
🌱 Matthew’s Regenerative Garden online masterclass + free 30-min training/call
🌱 Matthew’s book: 12 Universal Laws of Nature
🌱 Naturally Conscious Community
🌱 My Friday Plant Consciousness Commentary series
Expanded Show Notes
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. It's me, Tigria Gartenia. Today's guest is oh ah challenging, but in a good way, in a good way. I had the most delightful conversation with Matthew Mehus,
00:00:20
Speaker
um And i am just really excited about bringing this type of conversation to you because i feel like sometimes and I do this, I'm guilty of
Language and Plant Connection
00:00:30
Speaker
this. Right. I listen to so many different speakers and um and I have so many conversations with different people. And each one of us expresses our relationship with plants in a very different way. But it's really easy for us to, um especially if we've adopted a certain type of vocabulary and we look at things in a certain way, it's very easy to kind of judge you know the other person as if the words that they're using have the same meaning than the words you're using.
00:00:59
Speaker
And in this particular case, that is exactly kind of what happened at the beginning. Because I feel like Matthew is somebody who is doing really beautiful work.
00:01:10
Speaker
And his vocabulary matches that of his clients and of the people he works with and all these different aspects where my vocabulary, of course, has already shifted based on you and based on all my research and everything that I have done.
00:01:26
Speaker
And so I, but I also find, you know, language to be super important, especially in the types of topics that he were, he and I were talking about, which is really about what does it mean to design a garden? What is the relationship of the human being to the plants that are part of that garden?
00:01:44
Speaker
And, you know, who is the parents and who is the child, as you will hear that we get into. So this is really a wonderful conversation that touches you you know, what it means to bring this communication and this relationship with plants into a more corporate environment or into an environment of people who maybe are still haven't started their plant reawakening, but who have an inkling that they want something.
Roles in Plant-Oriented Environments
00:02:09
Speaker
And how do we as you know, the professionals that are here to help them through this transition in different ways, For example, for Matthew, and as a landscape you know architect and as a garden designer, it's one way of doing it. And me, of course, as a you know plant educator, you might say, or a plant advocacy ambassador, do it in another way.
00:02:30
Speaker
So I'm really excited for you to just listen to this. I want to hear your thoughts. I'd love to hear, you know, where do you see Matthew in the way that Matthew speaks and what it is that Matthew does in relation to everything else that we're talking about, about our interspecies relationship. so With that, i present to you episode 121, Interspecies Garden Relationships with Matthew Mahus.
Backgrounds and Inspirations
00:02:58
Speaker
Welcome to Reconnect with Plant Wisdom. I'm your host, Tigri Agardenia, nature-inspired mentor, certified life coach, and the founder of the Naturally Conscious Community. For over a decade, I've been known as a world ambassador for plant advocacy, working closely with plants to share their practical wisdom to help you consciously embody the elements of life that nourish your evolution.
00:03:19
Speaker
In this podcast, I delve into ancient and modern knowledge from biology to spirituality, about the wondrous ways of plants. Together, we'll explore how ecosystem thinking helps you overcome limiting beliefs, understand the true nature of relationships, and live an authentic, impactful life.
00:03:40
Speaker
All right, Matthew, we're we're already off to a great start because you asked me a beautiful question at the very beginning, which is, how can what do we need to do in order to make this the best episode ever? And I love that because it's already like bringing up a whole series of questions I want to ask you. But before I start asking you all these questions, can you tell my audience who is Matthew?
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, tirila first of all, thank you for having me on. I'm excited to talk plans and saving the world and doing a lot of things on a high pipe so Yeah, my backstory, trying to keep it short.
00:04:15
Speaker
I grew up on a family farm. My brother and father are farmers. I'm very passionate about agriculture. When I was three years old, I was so fascinated about how plants can grow, like seed in the ground.
00:04:29
Speaker
Wow. How is this possible? Like this is the three year old's first thoughts, I would say. By the time I was five, I told my parents, I'm going to start my own vegetable garden because on our farm at the time, there was mostly cash crops and cattle.
00:04:43
Speaker
We've changed it now since we're going into a more regenerative farm and we have a lot of gardens and visitor center. But then we can talk about more later. But then I started growing veggies and the first thing I did was radishes and it was a success story. It was so easy.
00:05:00
Speaker
Like growing radishes is one of the easiest veg. And then I thought it's super easy. So and then I so i said, OK, I'll get all the other seeds, tomato, lettuce, everything, because I was passionate about it.
00:05:12
Speaker
and i put i prepared my soil my grandmother came we added like compost because the soil was it's a very heavy place soil where i grew up and it actually used to be ocean and the monks in the 12th 11th 13th century they pushed back the ocean so it's very very rich soil but it's like it's like a brick when it dries and very muddy when it's raining so It was a struggle, and but still, I got everything in the ground and I thought, gardening is so easy, I'll come back in a couple of weeks to see everything.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, I can already harvest my tomatoes in my mind. i was like, okay. I came back and my my little garden was completely overgrown by weeds that were higher, taller than myself, like quite nasty weeds, like some were poisonous. I still remember my dad saying that.
00:06:04
Speaker
but Why am I telling you this story? That's where everything started. And I only could connect the dots looking backwards. It's like I went on in life.
Transformative Experiences and Realizations
00:06:14
Speaker
I studied a bachelor in landscape architecture in Belgium, which was focused on garden design.
00:06:20
Speaker
I finished that. i was like, I had a burning desire to do something more, not just design gardens. I'm still doing that. I love doing that. But I said, okay, i want to do more bigger projects. So I went to Germany to study a master degree in landscape architecture.
00:06:35
Speaker
and I ah got my master's degrees, I thought like this is it, this is what everybody expects of me, get a good degree and and start a 9-to-5 job. I got into that 9-to-5 thing,
00:06:48
Speaker
and half year in my first job, which I was proud of, become like depressed and I'm like, what the hell is this? like I didn't sign up for this, I want to create, i want to I'm creative, i want to help people.
00:07:01
Speaker
And Yeah, I still did it for two and a half years, but that was it. I quit my job. I had some money saved up. I packed my backpack and I went on a quest around the world to visit some of the most amazing projects that have to do with regeneration, ecology, eco-res... I went to a bunch of eco-resorts, to farms. I volunteered. I did permaculture trainings. I kind of did it all.
00:07:26
Speaker
And know I had a good lifestyle. I had like my laptop. I had a freelance job. which I was only working one day a week, which allowed me to keep traveling because I was like in South America, in Indonesia, living, in like sleeping in hammocks. And like, really, this I would say this was my hippie era.
00:07:44
Speaker
yeah And I loved it. And at some point I said, I'm going to go to Ecuador to the Amazon rainforest. I heard about it and I want to see what it's like. And the night before we want to go to the Amazon rainforest, we had like something booked through a travel agency. I wasn't too excited about it, but it was like limited time.
00:08:04
Speaker
And the night before I was in a hostel and somebody comes to us and, oh, you're going to the Amazon rainforest? We have this guy, he's like an indigenous, he's worked with National Geographic.
00:08:17
Speaker
here You should contact this guy. I was like, yeah, let's do that. So you can't find him on internet anywhere. So I spent three days with this guy in a boat in the depth of the Amazon rainforest.
00:08:28
Speaker
Like it was about 24 hours travel. And this guy was so amazing. He could make the sounds of every animal, like crocodiles, birds, like you name it. He he could do it and he saw things that nobody saw. him He's like pointing to a branch and like, look, look, look, it's a bird.
00:08:48
Speaker
Like, no, it's a branch. And it was an owl that was shaped as a branch. thought, wow, and that left such a deep impression on me, like the diversity, like what a beautiful planet do we have, like these are these wildlife areas we have to protect, this is like, this is the green lung of our planet.
00:09:06
Speaker
And was just like three days traveling and I went back to Quito, the capital in Ecuador, and I thought like I love my life, so I'm just going to keep doing this. I was planning to go to Mexico because I love surfing. I wanted to go there, but nature had a different course, God, the universe, whatever you believe in, had had a different plan for me.
00:09:26
Speaker
And they said that I got dengue from that travel in the Amazon rainforest. And it's like malaria. They call it the bone breakers disease. It was horrible. I was sick for about a month.
00:09:38
Speaker
And from that moment, my life actually went really down. It was like I didn't have much money left. i My girlfriend dumped me. I had to move back with my parents back to Belgium because I was sick and I yeah i couldn't afford, like I couldn't stay there because if you get stung twice, it's really, it can be deadly.
00:09:58
Speaker
But in this, what I like to call the dark night of the soul that you might be familiar with as well, this was and again it's in retrospect because was a really tough time i i got into my why why am i here and this is the question like you asked me how can we do it well i was like why am i on this planet what am i doing here and and from those ideas and i also worked with a mentor who helped me guiding me through like also a lot of blockages i said like i'm gonna make sure that we can protect those areas and the other areas in the world that we have, we should also make that as natural as possible. So
Career Paths and Business Ventures
00:10:35
Speaker
I started my own business in garden design because I knew that and I know, okay, if you get into business, you can actually make an impact, like a direct impact. We don't have to wait for policies or things that are way too slow.
00:10:49
Speaker
Businesses, you can have an immediate impact. So I did that in the business. We're now four years in the business. We have clients in four continents. I have an online masterclass where people can learn how to do it, how to create a regenerative garden themselves.
00:11:05
Speaker
I'm now looking to work with developers to do big scale developments based on the regenerative principles. So yeah, I'm living my dream. It's not a, it's it's not a, let's say it's not always rainbows and, and,
00:11:19
Speaker
and sunshine when you run a business, I think you know that, but I'm super happy that really right in the spot. And I'm now actually living in in the Azores in the middle of the Atlantic. I made it my home because I still travel a lot to Canada and to Europe.
00:11:34
Speaker
So yeah, that's in a nutshell what's been happening in the last several years. love journeys like this.
00:11:44
Speaker
And I love journeys like this because they help us understand that, you know, we don't just how do I say this? We're not like born with all the answers and all of a sudden life takes this linear path. And and even when you're passionate about something, it doesn't mean like I started off in high tech. And when I first first started, i never even planned to go into technology. And I went into tech because A good friend of mine basically found me at a conference and I was just getting ready to graduate from college, from university.
00:12:16
Speaker
And she was like, you know what? You would really be good at my job because she wanted to move on to another role in the company. And so she she was like, I'm going to put your name up for my um my job.
00:12:27
Speaker
And I had no idea. But it turned out to be, you know, doing audio and video online in the really early days of the Internet. And I remember at one point I was sitting in a meeting space where I was helping a group of ladies listen to a symphony from around the world. Like I don't even remember where it was being broadcast. And I remember thinking to myself, oh my goodness, this is what I want. I want people to be able to experience like the the technology, but in a way that nourishes them so much. In that case, it was nourishing them with music.
00:13:00
Speaker
And as I fast forward to today, you know like you said, you only see things in hindsight. And I think about my own journey with you know, the music of the plants and then eventually the plants and all this work. It it is easy for those things to go to derail, to go off onto like a path that you're like, I studied all this. I did all this work. I did it to help to create something that was good for the world. And then i end up in this place.
00:13:25
Speaker
That's not taking me there. So therefore, I have to switch gears. And so I love that you went off on that walkabout, as we call it, you know, that journey around to try to understand yourself.
00:13:35
Speaker
So here's my question. In all this right now, as you work on these regenerative projects, which are, you know, regenerative garden design and such, where do the plants fit in? Like, I mean, obviously you're using plants because it's a garden, but.
00:13:52
Speaker
There's got to be more. You don't go all the way to the Amazon to have a relationship with plants and then walk home and, I don't know, go to the garden variety, like garden store and pick up a bunch of plants and just, you know, insert them into the ground. Like there's got to be more to it.
00:14:06
Speaker
what where Where is your relationship with plants today?
00:14:12
Speaker
Very good question. It's a tough one because the way i look at it is that At the moment, I don't have a project myself. like i'm come I've come to the Azores to really get into a project myself, but still today I feel like I'm in a place that I have to serve people more.
00:14:33
Speaker
like i've've I've thought a long time about, like okay, I want to like came on this planet... I want to make sure that this planet is very inhabitable for the future, for many generations to come.
00:14:49
Speaker
I guess my big why. And I started to think, okay, how can I do that? Okay, I can make my own project, but that has a limited impact. And you might say, okay, people might come and visit them. But so it was it wasn't enough for me. So I thought I need to surf. And I thought more about it. Like, I really want to do this project. And I was so focused on the project and having the impact that I wasn't focused on the people.
00:15:17
Speaker
And now I'm so committed to helping people because that's my that's the only way I can get to my goal is to inspire as many people, to empower as many people. Like I still do garden designs and I will keep doing it because I love it. i love creation and I love picking plans and finding the right plans for the right location, working with nurseries or finding other ways that you could do like a ah regeneration more naturally and then go with this the flow of succession.
00:15:47
Speaker
Like this is still what I do, but I now created a masterclass and that's more where I can give it to other people and then they can give it to their garden or some of my students started their own garden design business.
00:16:02
Speaker
So I think even if I still have a direct connection with plants, I talk to plants, I definitely like there's signs behind it that However you treat your plants, the vibration is going to increase. And somebody actually told me yesterday, it's my girlfriend who's working for another big podcast called Wellness and Wisdom by Josh Trent, which is quite big in the US. And they had someone on the show that said, okay, every wheat that comes in your garden
00:16:36
Speaker
that is actually plant that wants to serve you. like Every wheat has specific minerals and somebody told me that these plants appear because they want to help you. So I think that's very beautiful.
00:16:50
Speaker
so But I'm working on on a project to also do something myself. but just For now I'm dedicated to helping people create the connection with plants themselves. here Yeah, and this is such an important place because, so, you know, my my master's degree is really unique because it's plant social innovation and design.
Innovations in Garden Design
00:17:10
Speaker
And so I became, and I kind of came into that because i started, when I first started studying about plant intelligence and working connected with plants, I went down the biomimicry, you know, route. So biomimicry or bio-inspired design.
00:17:26
Speaker
and i've And I fell in love with the whole concept of, how is it that plants work with us in the built environment? And i and i don't i you know I don't talk about it as much anymore because I'm outside of a lot of those projects. I worked on several EU-based projects also connected to biomimicry and you know water loops and you know the built environment and all these different perspectives.
00:17:50
Speaker
And i am still thoroughly convinced. And I just recently saw something quite beautiful, a beautiful project that's that's being done in the United States around how do, you know, how does the but plant world through the metaphor of the garden or through the the application of a garden enter into our shared spaces, especially in urban environments.
00:18:20
Speaker
And but in a way that allows relationship to happen, because most current and you know this better than I do, most current landscape design, especially inside of cities. Right. When we're talking about cities is to a certain extent sterile.
00:18:37
Speaker
Right. The whole premise is I create this thing that supposedly is aesthetically beautiful. Although one would argue, i would argue that. And yet there's a very definitive separation between the human part of it and the plant part. In other words, look, but don't touch.
00:18:59
Speaker
ah You know, see what I am. And this is I mean, this is really why ecofeminism as a whole discipline of study is born, because it's very similar to the way women have been treated in the idea of look, you know, look at me. I'm supposed to be constrained. I have to wear this corset. I have to put on this makeup. I have to do all these things.
00:19:21
Speaker
And I hold you in place. And to be this stylized ideal of beauty, but I do not allow you to express yourself. And when you do, I call that wild and bad and something that you shouldn't be.
00:19:36
Speaker
When in reality, our and that's what our garden spaces inside of cities often are, there's this this thing. I remember having a conversation with my landscape gardening and professor,
00:19:49
Speaker
When I did my master's, we were talking about the famous, um what are they called? a Foresta Verticale, like the two ah towers in Milan, right? That everybody... Exactly. Boeri. Yeah.
00:20:03
Speaker
Boeri's... And everybody, like, I mean, okay, there they can they have this aspect of, sure, they're green, but... the The person who lives in the apartment is not allowed to have any contact with the plant right outside their window.
00:20:19
Speaker
they're They're taken care of by a crane that has been installed on the top of each of the towers. And our professor didn't want to say anything because she's very polite. But we were like, no, no, no, you got to tell us what you really think about this place.
00:20:33
Speaker
And she went off on a rant because she's like, even when you walk up to the building, there's these beautiful planters and the plants he planted are not native. they They die in this area.
00:20:44
Speaker
They're constantly being replaced. So people are living in this beautiful thing, but there's no relationship happening. And so I'm so curious as to whether or not like in your work, how are you helping people bridge that? Like when people are thinking about their own garden design, how do we break that barrier where it's not,
00:21:10
Speaker
I human put you in and then you sit there beautiful, but instead it's there's a relationship happening here and we're supposed to be interacting on a chemical level, on a energetic level, an electromagnetic level, on a physical level, even when it's appropriate.
00:21:29
Speaker
Does that even make any sense? Yeah, a lot. whole story and question reminded me of a lecture we had on the history of gardens. So If we go back in history, the first garden that was ever created is the Hortus inclusius, which is like a walled garden.
00:21:48
Speaker
mert So this was in the time where nature was very hostile for people at that time, because we had wild, like whole Europe was still mostly forests.
00:21:59
Speaker
We had wolves, bears, like it was not the safest environment to just wander around in. So what, what. The walled garden was a representation of like, okay, outside there's a crazy wild world that we are very scared of and inside we'll create something that we can tame.
00:22:19
Speaker
And that went on still very long into history, like the French gardens. It's a ah like like a show of how we dominat dominate nature.
00:22:31
Speaker
That's what the French garden represents. It also shows yeah wealth. I can afford something. I can afford something that can be maintained, like big big pieces of lawn that are mowed, it's more like a status symbol.
00:22:48
Speaker
Interestingly enough, around that same time, no, that's a bit later, this was in the 1800s, it became like a flex or a symbol of wealth was to collect plants from all over the world, which was the creation of the yeah botanical gardens, botanical parks. They were all in in the 1800s. It's still a cool thing. know, you have lot money and you say, okay, I want to have all the plants of the world.
00:23:12
Speaker
Why not? Kind of like that idea, but still mostly was to dominate nature. And then we are now in the post, you could say post-industrial,
00:23:24
Speaker
times where we've completely dominated nature and we're completely disconnected from nature because of the industrial revolution, because of collapse of ecosystems.
00:23:36
Speaker
There's just so little nature left that now the trend would be to reverse that and actually make your garden and environment that supports nature.
00:23:47
Speaker
um sports by the first and this is the big trend, like a lot of the naturalistic gardens, like Pete Udolph is a famous garden designer, even you could still argue how natural it is, but it looks natural, that's the least you could say.
00:24:01
Speaker
So now people are getting more connected to a more wilder looking garden, which is great, but it also comes with it with a few challenges, like you just plant things randomly and then you let it go,
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's not going work. So you need the knowledge of how nature works. And that's what I teach in my masterclass. Like, okay, first of all, let's understand how nature works, how the succession works, how do plants, yeah, how does a plant grow?
00:24:31
Speaker
Why do weeds come? That's like a very important knowledge. And it's also in my book, 12 Universal Laws of Nature. So when we can then understand nature, we can use that to our own advantage in the garden.
00:24:44
Speaker
And so how I do that with my clients and my students, it's like, okay, you first have to get really clear on what you want. What's your vision? Like, why do you even want the garden? you want edible plants? Do you want flowers? Do you want to create a sanctuary for birds or butterflies? Like, what excites you?
00:25:02
Speaker
Because see a lot of garden designers, architects do that as well. They come into a garden and say, oh here I'm going to put that and there I'm going to put this. And if I put that there, it's going to be really beautiful, but they don't listen to the clients or they don't listen to themselves in case you're like a student of a class, because then everybody thinks you have to have raised beds with vegetables.
00:25:25
Speaker
I don't see the need for that because it's a lot of work. It's very expensive and you could better go to a farmer's market and support farmer to buy a veggies, which I'm not saying that you shouldn't.
00:25:38
Speaker
Because for me example for me, for example, I love growing vegetables. andm I'm very passionate about it. I was five years old, so it's kind of in genes. So you have to get clear on what you want and then use that to set or use that vision to then create it in the garden.
00:25:56
Speaker
And usually how I do it with one-on-one clients is I sell them what they want. Like want to low maintenance. Most of them, they want the low maintenance garden. They want flowers.
00:26:07
Speaker
Like I had this one project and I'll keep referring to it because it's a shifting moment in my business. Well, I had gathered a lot of information from taking courses, applying certain things.
00:26:19
Speaker
And I had this one client, she she loved what I did. She said, I want you to create a garden that has flowers, edible plants, herbs, I love attracting butterflies. I want also vegetables.
00:26:32
Speaker
she went like She made a whole list and she finished and she said, but I also wanted it to be really low in maintenance because I have a very busy job. And I kind of laughed to it because up until that point, i was like, no, there's no way that you can make a low maintenance car that is also so diverse. But something came to me like, you know what? Let's take the challenge and I'm going to create that.
00:26:56
Speaker
and to make it super low in maintenance so we've applied all the knowledge that i gathered which is mostly about around soil health and supporting the plants to grow and picking the right plant for the right location and this garden which is 300 square meter garden which is about 3200 square feet it's not huge it's not small it it takes 12 hours of maintenance in nine months, which is the growing season in Belgium. So it's super low in maintenance and she has everything she wants. So it's definitely possible. You just need to tap into the knowledge of how nature works because in in nature there is no maintenance or very little. We have grazing animals that eat here and there.
00:27:44
Speaker
That's kind of how you should maintain your garden as well. And I can graze here and there and change some things. like trimming a little bit here and there, and then you keep that beauty going.
00:27:55
Speaker
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00:29:21
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to challenge you. and i know i told I know I told you I would do this, so I'm going to challenge you because you keep using an expression.
00:29:30
Speaker
You keep using an expression that, in my opinion, it's something you learned. to say in this way, but based on everything I know about you from this meeting and from when we spoke before, I don't really think it's how you think about it, but I feel like it's just the words that you're used to using. So you keep saying knowledge of how nature works.
00:29:53
Speaker
And you know when you understand how nature and you just keep using nature as if it's something outside of you, And recently I've had several of my guests and we've had been having this running conversation, which is that for people who grow up on farms of whatever sort, people who grow up immersed in a natural environment, there's a.
00:30:17
Speaker
There's an inherent understanding of how the world operates that doesn't come that that comes from being a participant in it, in particular, in being a participant in the the in the natural world.
00:30:34
Speaker
So we're just going to try to use a few words to like play around with things for a second, just because I'm so curious as to where it goes with you, which is. I think what I what I keep hearing happen is that you grow up in this environment where there's this relationship where you've cultivated, you know, you've had to enter into relationship with the plants. You've had to enter a relationship with the animals. There's this like very close contact.
00:31:02
Speaker
Then you go off to university and university, unfortunately, as you said, teaches you dominion. You know, in order for you to do your job, landscape architect, garden designer, whatever it is, you are supposed to take the material you work with, which in this case are plants, and like be the master.
00:31:25
Speaker
And you're the one who's supposed to tell them like what they're supposed to do and what they're supposed to be. And so therefore you think of like that's nature and I am this thing outside of it.
00:31:38
Speaker
But in reality, especially when we're talking about regeneration and we're talking about like even what is kind of called low maintenance, which means I have to build relationships, right?
00:31:50
Speaker
I have to look at all the plants based on the needs and the desires of the person that I'm working with. and say, okay, you person, you i have to create an environment that has a series of relationships that allows these beings, which are all different plants, to grow in a healthy way to reproduce on a regular basis, whether that's flowering, whether that's, you know, um producing fruit or any other kind of or vegetable or any of types of things.
00:32:22
Speaker
So you have to be healthy because you know they don't reproduce. Kin don't reproduce if you don't, if they're not healthy or if they're in the wrong environment because you could have a beautiful, I don't know, banana tree in the middle of like the Valcuzella where I live in Italy. And of course the leaves are going to come out because plants are resilient as hell, but it's not going to put out a banana like it does at my friend's house in South Florida, right? Where she gets so many bananas that we have to like freeze her freezer becomes full of bananas.
00:32:51
Speaker
So you're creating relationships that are based on location that are based on, um, who's, sitting next to you, who's growing with you, and all these different things.
00:33:03
Speaker
And so the only way you could really do that, with it being low maintenance, this is my opinion only, and I'd love to hear what your thoughts are, is if you're talking about high maintenance, then yes, you could be um in dominion, because at that point, you control everything.
00:33:19
Speaker
I switch plants out, I artificially feed you, I artificially give you light, I do all these types of things, and I constrain you to grow however it is that I want you to grow. But low maintenance by nature means you are nature because your you have to know them so well.
00:33:37
Speaker
You have to be in that relationship that you can nudge them into like, I'm going to put you guys together, but then I'm going to step away and you're going to grow on your own.
00:33:50
Speaker
And so you can't really do that if you're dominion over them. Does that make you know you understand what I'm trying to say? Oh, yeah, totally. I agree with that.
00:34:00
Speaker
And that's, I think why I the the title of my book is 12 universal, universal laws of nature. So it applies to your personal life applies to nature. So yeah, not nature, because you are nature, it applies to the nature to the more than human world. yeah but we are a part of nature so something that it applies to nature.
00:34:20
Speaker
I get that. Now I get it. but Okay. I like it. We still have to like, ah like words never come enough to explain the concept. They're always limiting. But we still have to find a way to communicate.
00:34:34
Speaker
And I still believe, like I said, I call it, that's what my client wants, low maintenance. And that's actually what they need as well. Because you don't want to be spending hours and hours in maintaining, sitting on your knees, pulling the weeds.
00:34:46
Speaker
ah That's ridiculous. Like, the That makes no sense. So we can actually create that by understanding how nature, or which we are intrinsically part of, this that's what talk about and in some of my social media, is that the Amazon rainforest is actually man-made.
00:35:08
Speaker
It's made by the indigenous that have selected trees, cut down trees, they added trees, they changed it, they bred them to be bigger And that's why the Amazon rainforest is so... Well, it's not the only reason, but the humans definitely had an impact.
00:35:25
Speaker
as Such as how also animals have an impact on how plants grow. like Giraffes made acacia trees become different because they now have a certain scent that they can send signals, oh, there's a giraffe coming.
00:35:40
Speaker
We have to start producing toxins in our leaves, otherwise we're going to be eaten. And they communicate with each other. so We are part of nature, but we also influence nature and nature influences us.
00:35:54
Speaker
So yeah, it's kind of holistic way of looking at things. It becomes quite complicated, but at the same time, we have to take elements and make it abstract for people to understand. Because yeah, you could say that everything is always connected and that it is true, but then we still have to get to the knowledge and apply it.
00:36:16
Speaker
and yeah in your gu just like animals and just like the indigenous people are, are yeah, crafting yeah nature, you could almost see i want to I want to tell you about this because I think you're going to find it fascinating. So i did I do this plant consciousness commentary on Fridays, which is where I break down the science, like papers, but I also um comment on conferences and stuff like that.
00:36:43
Speaker
And one of the recent episodes that I did was commentary on a fantastic keynote by Emanuele Cocha. He did this really interesting talk during the Thinking with Plants and Fungi conference where he talked about this concept that most people don't realize that the Amazon are man-made.
00:37:11
Speaker
Like in other words, met and humanity are um humans are an integral part of what has created the Amazon. The Amazon um left without humans would have had a very different way of being, but our presence as one of the animals present in the ecosystem has created it.
00:37:31
Speaker
And so he goes through this and he explains it to people and he actually theorizes, which I find fascinating, his his plant, his basically talk is,
00:37:43
Speaker
are cities the children of plants. Because his philosophy in understanding that the Amazon, starting with the Amazon as being human influenced, is that the humans had to, um basically the plants needed the humans to be around.
00:38:03
Speaker
needed the humans to do the things that humans can do because we have two legs, we have two arms, because we hunt in a different way from a lion or a tiger or a bear or or any other kind of, or a cougar or a coyote or any of these types of things.
00:38:18
Speaker
We have a different... down sometimes Exactly. We have the ability to cut Exactly. We have the ability to do all these things. So we're one of the hum we're one of the animals that does very specific things like every other.
00:38:31
Speaker
And so therefore, the cities are created as ways to keep the humans nearby. So that the humans, so cities, of course, they've expanded into the urban sprawl that we think about, but even towns, which is a small city, is created and a little, you know, like all these little towns and all these little villages are really ways of the fu forest keeping humans close.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah. and allowing the humans to have their own kind of ink. It's super fascinating when you start to think about it, because he then says he he exactly. So he talks about how if we looked at the gardens inside of urban spaces as really the opposite, it's rather than us having the the nature close, it's the nature trying to keep us close.
00:39:23
Speaker
then how would our cities look or how would our garden spaces look? And he goes into this. it's ah It's a fascinating talk. So worth listening to. I've already heard it twice because it's just like there's so much in there to conceptualize.
00:39:39
Speaker
But he kind of keeps going back to the fact of when we remember that we're nature, but that we are of course, having human, we have our own form. This is what I take from it. We have our own form and we have our own roles.
00:39:52
Speaker
What happens and how is it that we continue? How can we instead re embody those roles to have a relationship in our garden spaces with plants, but a relationship where it honors that I am human?
00:40:07
Speaker
So, you know, sure, i have the ability to do certain things that other animals don't have the ability to do. Like you said, I can cut in a different way and all the I even eat in a very different way. And and so it's like it really it redefines the relationship with the garden.
00:40:27
Speaker
Right. Because it it sort of. It's as if we are now the children of the garden. We are and which is true, right? We are the ones that benefit to a certain extent from the garden, but not benefit in the perspective of the colonistic I take.
00:40:44
Speaker
But think of it as the garden is my parent, which is very similar. i did a project for my for my master's. My master's project was connected to Matera, which is a city in southern Italy.
00:40:57
Speaker
It's one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. Like it's it's from the old time when we still lived, when we were cave people, when we still lived in caves.
00:41:08
Speaker
And so when in the cave, the cave was the living part for the human protection and all those things. But there was then a terrace which was the area where the different caves connected so that people could unite. And the garden that would existed there was the the garden that was important for food, like but not food as in like agriculture, because agriculture was outside of the city.
00:41:33
Speaker
It was more of the food for like a herb garden and little things that you need close to the kitchen. And then there was the pensile garden, the garden that was like above the caves.
00:41:46
Speaker
And that was the contemplation garden. The fact that plants as our parents needed us to contemplate, two they needed for us to philosophize with them, to rest,
00:41:59
Speaker
to have this relationship of communication and exchange. And so that was the pensile garden that was above the the, so you had agriculture outside of the city.
00:42:14
Speaker
because that was the relationship where forest becomes, you know, garden and all this. You had the garden in, but really in the shared area, which was the shared things that we need for cooking, simple things that we needed for our everyday.
00:42:31
Speaker
And then you had the pensile, which was, nature's way of staying in communion and continually like reminding us that we're part of nature, but our needs are to be in the caves.
00:42:42
Speaker
And so here's how we end up relating. And I loved this project so much. I actually have the images of what we designed um here sitting kind of below me because it made me realize when then I heard Emanuele's talk, I realized, oh, my goodness, if I think of plants as my parents,
00:43:04
Speaker
then the relationship is so different. Yes, I take care of my parents in old age. Yes, I help my parents do things. But because that's how they nourish me, you know, in all these other pieces, and they nourish me with their knowledge, and in the case of plants, with their bodies, with all these other aspects. it it's It's still a concept I'm running through my mind, because it completely shifts the relationship of the garden to being our our ancestors, our parents that are giving of us. And it's kind of closer to the indigenous wisdom of really looking at like the three sisters and the whole concept that these are my my elders that are giving of their bodies and getting of their not life in order to nourish me.
Research and Knowledge Sharing
00:43:49
Speaker
I went off on another rant, but I just love it so much. It's not a rant. I mean, a tangent. That's amazing because i think it reminds me of some research I read that the most biodiverse areas of the world are the pristine
00:44:07
Speaker
national parks where you have grazing animals, even hunting animals as well. But the other ones are the suburbs of cities, because everybody is growing different plants. There's ah ah even plants that are ah not necessarily indigenous,
00:44:25
Speaker
plants from all the world, makes your, you grow this, your neighbor grows something else. Right. And that's what really attracts a lot of wildlife as well. So from, from that perspective or from a biology standpoint, it also makes a lot of sense.
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's really, it it helps shift us. And I think the work that people like you do that are important is to help The individuals who maybe grew up in a city and are afraid because most of us are afraid of like, I don't know how to grow something. I don't know how to do it.
00:44:56
Speaker
And yet I feel this call to have this relationship. And so I need just in enough. I need the knowledge in order to start it right. Right. To not make some of the errors that have been made in the past.
00:45:09
Speaker
And at the same time, to create something that I can relate to and that I can continue to, you know, nourish and have a relationship with over time. And I think that that's really what's most important about the kind of work that people like you do is you're almost like relationship builders, you're relationship builders, you're interspecies relationship builders. Yeah, sometimes i feel like I'm a relationship therapist as well when I have
00:45:41
Speaker
that' Yeah, you can have the plants, though, do it. You're like, OK, want you both to talk to this cucumber and let the cucumber help you, but guide you along the way. i love that how I know that that you've kind of like have a short window of time. How do people get in touch with you? How do they work with you? And, you know, and such help help people understand, like where where it is that you operate and how you operate.
00:46:09
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for asking. So mostly if you Google my name, you'll get to most of the social media platforms. I'm active on Instagram where it's more like DIY garden tips and tricks and hacks and and knowledge about regenerative gardening.
00:46:26
Speaker
And if you click through there, you can also get to a 30 minute free training. And if you like that, you can actually book a meeting. ah with me through Calendly and then I can see if I can help you or if you if the master class is a fit for you.
00:46:39
Speaker
like we are we'll We'll have a conversation because I don't allow just anyone. You need to be like really ready to to do the work because I need committed people because yeah you need to absorb a lot. But interestingly enough, I find that knowledge part is is quite easy. you think there's a lot of misinformation and wrong information which is also very confusing but i think the the biggest benefit of growth coming into this community is like you're you're together with other like-minded people, you're learning from each other, there's we have a weekly group meeting, we get together, we talk plans and what works, what doesn't work, why are certain things not working and a WhatsApp support group as well and we just share.
00:47:23
Speaker
yeah I think this this community and accountability aspect is really important. I think in my opinion, that's probably the only businesses that are going to be left in the future as already with AI knowledge is readily available.
00:47:37
Speaker
Still, you need to know what to look for because you today you can find anything. Right, exactly. You can find evidence for it. So you still need to to work with people that have the the experience and the results.
00:47:53
Speaker
So that's why I also created this masterclass. Um, so yeah, that's Instagram. Then, uh, you can find me on LinkedIn as well, which is more about companies. I want companies to invest in their green space for their buildings or around their buildings mostly because there's a lot of research showing that people will stay working longer for you. If you have a beautiful environment, they have the stress level goes down.
00:48:19
Speaker
retention is longer, so they will, they will, they won't quit their job as quickly. and so a bunch of parameters that show that other than general value creation so that's what we do there TikTok is bit like just random thoughts and yeah I think that's it Facebook you can also find me on facebook which is a bit of a mix so yeah you can find
Biophilic Design and Its Benefits
00:48:44
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. the The whole, I mean, biophilic design and garden design and all these elements and really creating that inter, you know, interspecies way of being is so important. And, you know, that sense of all the wonder, there's so much scientific research that helps us better understand that our relationship to plant with plants really nourishes us on every single level, right? On a physical level and an emotional level and a psychological level, like all these different pieces
00:49:12
Speaker
that help that when we have plants in close proximity, especially in areas that we don't normally have them, like like you know an office environment, is it just changes. It's such a game changer.
00:49:25
Speaker
And i've seen you know I've seen companies that have done some amazing work to create that relationship and giving people more space for that contemplation. Because again, that's where that that's where those great ideas come from, right? From that time when I allow myself to sit in the garden and to connect into the natural world, to feel that plantness of myself, to find my stillness, to find my centering, and to then be inspired by the awe and wonder that nature, that nature you know, the nature outside of me that the more than human world ah offers. And then that triggers inside of me. And of course, that's where all the great ideas come from.
00:50:01
Speaker
So it makes sense that more and more companies are starting to invest in the creation of a beautiful space that is enriching their you know their employees. Because, I mean, really, who wants to work in a place that's just concrete and you know square walls? it's just It's not fun at all. It's not not healthy.
00:50:21
Speaker
So thank you so much, Matthew. This has been a really great conversation. I'm super i'm super happy that we have a chance to do it. I could probably talk and geek out about a bunch of stuff with you because I have like all kinds of nerdy biophilic design questions and landscape architect questions and super technical type of stuff.
00:50:37
Speaker
But I'm sure that conversation will come at some point, um especially because I've been out of the projects for a while. And so it's like sometimes I get to hear about them. It's like, what are people doing over here? and so I always think that that's super fun.
00:50:50
Speaker
So thank you so much for for being here, for sharing all of your knowledge. And of course, I'm going to include everything in the show notes. Do you have any last words of wisdom before I close everything off? No, I think most important for the listeners is like, okay, if you want to get your hands dirty, do it Try some stuff. If it works good, mostly people are stuck because they go to the garden center and buy a don't don't do that yeah don't do this because you want to get straight to it. So if you feel like I want to do it now, just go directly and book a meeting with me and you'll see how I can help you the most. And I'm very excited to continue this conversation with you and and see where it can overlap with what you're doing. yeah
00:51:32
Speaker
I love it. amazing You're bringing this knowledge into the world that is it like a next step already, like how we as humans can go back to the Garden Eden. Thank you so much. Those are the beautiful words. And thank everybody who's listening.
00:51:47
Speaker
i you know, go if you've been trying to understand what it takes to build a garden, go out and check out Matthew, get get a bunch of his information, contact him, have a meeting.
Community Engagement and Closing Remarks
00:51:57
Speaker
And because this is exactly what we need, we need to create relationships with our plants.
00:52:02
Speaker
close to us and a garden space is one of the most beautiful ways to do that. So if you enjoyed this episode, of course, remember to like and subscribe and share and you know, all that good stuff that you can do wherever it is that you're listening to it because that gets more people informed and aware of the amazing work people like Matthew are doing.
00:52:23
Speaker
And of course, if you want to go deeper into these conversations, the naturally conscious community is the place to go because this is a ecosystem online that is completely dedicated to human plant relationships.
00:52:35
Speaker
So with that, remember to resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance. That's it. Thanks for tuning into this episode of reconnect with plant wisdom to continue these conversations. Join us in the naturally conscious community.
00:52:51
Speaker
your premier online ecosystem for plant reawakening and accelerated evolution and co-creation with other kin. Here, you'll find expansive discussions, interactive courses, live events, and supportive group programs like the Plant Wisdom Book Club and the Sprouts Writing and Creativity Group.
00:53:08
Speaker
Connect with like-minded individuals collaborating with plants to integrate these insights into life. Intro and outro music by Steve Shuley and Poinsettia from The Singing Life of Plants. That's it for me, Tigria Gardenia, and my plant collaborators.
00:53:22
Speaker
Until next time, remember, resist the urge to hold back your emerging green brilliance. I'm out. Bye.