Transcript
Speaker: know the Oscars went to, but should they have gone there? Welcome to And the Oscars Should Have Gone To, a place where we discuss, debate, and decide certain Best Picture races from the Academy Awards, and then reveal who we think should have been awarded the Best Picture Oscar that year. Maybe our Best Picture pick was clearly the movie everybody loved back then.
Speaker: Maybe it was an influential work that filmmakers still discuss years later. Or maybe it's just the movie that everyone re-watched the year after year As always, we recommend that you folks at home watch each nominee so you can make your own determination and then let us know how wrong we are. And with that, we thank the Academy. Let's start the show.
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to season three of And the Oscar Should Have Gone To. I am here with Rob from Boston. Dylan from Los Angeles.
Speaker: And I am Glennis, and I'm also in Los Angeles, and we are happy to have you here. And it's a brand new season, so we have some exciting years to talk about this season, and we're starting with 1990.
Speaker: I just want to remind everybody that you can email us at theoscarspodcast at gmail.com, and you can give us your rants and your raves, but hopefully hopefully you'll mostly say nice things. um Tell your friends about this podcast if they like movies, um Just want to shout out to our listeners across the world, which surprises me a little bit. Hello to someone in Yemen who's listening.
Speaker: Germany, thanks for good representation. Anyway, we're happy to have you here and we're excited to get going. So we are talking about 1990 today. um The movies are Dances with Wolves is an ah epic revisionist Western starring, directed, and produced by Kevin Costner that tells the story of a Union Army lieutenant who travels to the American frontier to find a military post and who meets a group of Lakota.
Speaker: Awakenings is a biographical drama directed by Penny Marshall starring Robert De Niro and Robin Williams that tells the story of the fictional neurologist Dr. Malcolm Sayre, whose character is based on real life Dr. Oliver Sacks.
Speaker: Ghost is a supernatural romance directed by Jerry Zucker starring Patrick Swayze. Demi Moore and Whoopi Goldberg that focuses on a murdered banker whose ghost sets out to save his girlfriend from the person who arranged his murder through the help of the psychic Odomay Brown.
Speaker: The Godfather Part Three is an epic crime drama directed by Francis Ford Coppola that concludes the fictional story of Michael Corleone, the patriarch of the Corleone family who attempts to legitimize his criminal empire.
Speaker: Goodfellas is a biographical gangster drama directed by Martin Scorsese, starring Robert De Niro, Ray Liotta, Joe Pesci, Lorraine Bracco, and Paul Sorvino, narrating the rise and fall of mafia associate Henry Hill and his friends and family from 1955 1980. Rob, what did you think about Awakenings?
Speaker: rob what did you think about awakenings Awakenings. There was a lot to like about this movie, a lot to dislike about this movie, I thought, in my opinion. True story set in 1969. Robin Williams has the lead. Robert De Niro is kind of ah the the supporting actor and one of the patients.
Speaker: It's, ah I guess, the whole movie, the first time I saw it, which kind of took away from me, from from the movie from me, it was, you know, i i knew that the two of them were going to become love interests. I knew that the people were going to be given a drug just, you know, from the the trailer. um They were going to be given a drug and they were going to wake up from their...
Speaker: comatose kind of beings. And um and then kind of it was going to go downhill from there. And that's exactly what the movie was. um So there's really not a lot of suspense in this movie. I mean, did you guys guess the the plot or was it just... I mean, I think everybody knew it from back then, but...
Speaker: yeah I just guess that it's not just Robert De Niro who's going to awaken. It's also Robin Williams' character who's going to awaken. i mean, I think it's not a suspense movie about what happens to these people. I think that's why they could give the plot away. um i think it was, what do you do with life all of a sudden when you've been asleep for 30 years or whatever? And also, what um what happens to a closed-up doctor as he works with these patients who are being so brave and waking up and... um He has to wake up, get it? Yeah, awakenings. They all woke up. Yeah, the patients were really kind of in ah in a certain state. They could do weird things like they couldn't talk or walk well or do any kind of animated things well, but yet they could they could catch like a baseball. They all caught the ball that was thrown at them. It was amazing no matter how hard it was thrown or where it was thrown. Every single person could catch a baseball.
Speaker: Yeah, a little strange. The ball was, I think that that that was a wonderful Hollywood moment ah where they they all catch the ball. I doubt that happened in real life. So I think that even though this movie was based on a mostly true story, it was very fictionalized. They changed the name of the doctor. And um yeah, so I think it made for great entertainment in general. But yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, probably didn't help. Great, but it was entertaining. And I don't know about entertainment, but, you know. And you'll dig it one step further. Am I the only one that liked this movie? Yes.
Speaker: um um um It was mid for me. It was 6'7". It was just, you know. Doesn't slap. Yeah. Yeah. and It was. I like how they pulled things off, but there was nothing that was a surprise in this movie. I thought Julie Kavner was. was excellent. She played the nurse and, you know, soon to be his love interest because every movie seems to have to have some kind of a love interest for the main character, which was, you know, also a bit predictable. Well, also because it should have been a male nurse.
Speaker: So, right. Yeah. oliver Oliver Sacks was, Oliver Sacks was gay. So they definitely renamed the character probably for several reasons, but, um, yeah,
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, I thought, you know, it's funny to hear you guys talk about this. i i managed to avoid this movie and up until like a month or two ago. So I never saw it um until recently because I knew what to expect. I think it's like you said, Rob, you kind of know what's going to happen. And I think that there was a certain cloying factor going on about, you know, like pulling on your heartstrings intentionally. And it definitely does that. And, but,
Speaker: don't know. I found it kind of and entertaining. Dylan, I guess you did not. just think it's a TNT movie. It's one of those things you're in a hotel, getting ready to go out somewhere. It's like, oh yeah, I'll put this on for a half hour. I blow dry my hair, but there's nothing, there's no need to see it. It came and went. That's cool. ah De Niro got nominated for this, which is ridiculous when he didn't get nominated for Goodfellas or a million other things. Crazy.
Speaker: Yeah, it's very treacly, very saccharine, very predictable. Not much to see. Whatever. Yeah. I think there's some parts of it where you'd like to so explore a little bit more like Leonard wanted his Leonard is a Robert Niro's character wanted his decline like films to help others, which I thought was an interesting arc to the movie. Um,
Speaker: when he gets agitated, he has like facial and body tics and it happens more and more as he slips away and you can kind of, maybe that was why he and was nominated. I don't know. He just, yeah he showed his, his decline, I guess, which he he did well, but there's a lot of people out there. You don't have to be Robert De Niro to do that. Well, exactly. Yeah. It could have been anybody. Yeah. Agreed.
Speaker: Um, I mean, I think the movie at the time kind of won some audiences over, but it's like how much you want to dive into the deeper meanings of life is kind of up to the viewer. do you want to, spend your time really, you know, giving this movie a lot of thought or do you want to just treat it like a TNT movie when you're blow drying your hair, like Dylan said, and move on, you know, so.
Speaker: Okay. Dylan, what'd you think of Ghost? Oh, it's not a genre I enjoy, but I think for what it was, it was really good. um Wait, what's the genre? Is it romance or is it paranormal? Or is it paranormal romance? No, it's romance. Okay.
Speaker: um It's barely supernatural because there's no... there's no world building and there's no explanation and it all takes place on earth. And there's, you know, it's, I guess there's an element of a mystery, except we kind of know, or we should know who did it. um Yeah. I mean it's really a romance in the end. And for for that and Glenn, it's you'll be able, cause this is your kind of bailiwick. So you'll be able to kind of analyze it much better than I can as a genre piece. it's quite entertaining at the time. it was like all the craze. Um, it was hugely popular. i don't know now if there's memes around ghosts, but for so long it was in pop culture references. Um, you know,
Speaker: speaking of Robin Williams kind of going for the gold, this, I'd have to look, but in my recollection, this was Demi Moore's first kind of big, serious role. Like she had been in things like, um, about last night stuff.
Speaker: Yeah. pi you Yeah. Yeah. She'd been in, in, in movies, but they're, they're kind of light romances or maybe there's some light action there somewhere. I can't remember. I think this was her first, like, oh I'm going to do like serious movies. And she kind of, uh, in the nineties, she was, she had a really good run of serious movies. Swayze, uh,
Speaker: Gosh, i don't I'd have to look, but he had like a great in run of like, don't know, three or four just really big hits and real pop culture classics. Like maybe they weren't in a row.
Speaker: But yeah, you know, Dirty Dancing and then Ghosts and Point Break. was just like, oh, he's really rattling them off. um So it's kind of peak Patrick Swayze. In a way, I think it's peak Demi Moore.
Speaker: it has to be peak Whoopi Goldberg because she's mostly Valley, so that's good. Do you think it was peak Tony Goldwyn? I have not seen Scandal, so I don't know. Is there a peak Tony Goldwyn? There's either this or Scandal.
Speaker: That's the only two, right? Okay. And he probably plays someone who murders his best friend in Scandal because he just has that face. No offense to him. Yeah, he kind of has an asshole face or something. Yeah, which is probably valuable in Hollywood. Like, oh, get that guy.
Speaker: So, no, I think for what it is, it's great. It's a great crowd pleaser. It's real tight. They don't waste a lot of time. um There's a lot of laughs in it. The the chemistry between Swayze and Goldberg's really good. They're really funny together um because they're very opposite characters.
Speaker: And no, I mean, guess it's not a genre I particularly enjoy, but for the genre it is, which is a romance. like Yeah, I guess supernatural, but okay yeah. um It's really good. It's really well-crafted.
Speaker: it's a good example of Hollywood as a industry. And, I, I would, everyone has to see at least once I would, I would highly recommend it. I'm never going to watch again. Just for the pottery scene. I mean, what has done more for again, that's, then, yeah, that's what I mean. Right. And again, for, for that type of movie, I think it's really good and really well done and doesn't overstay its welcome.
Speaker: And it doesn't get too, uh, treacly, believe it or not, even with the pottery scene. And, uh, yeah, There you go. but I don't know. with would Rob, what do you think? Yeah. No, I probably liked it a little better than you did. I think i thought it was a great movie for its genre. I wouldn't mind seeing this again several times. It's ah it's part of pop culture, like you said. Whoopi Goldberg deserved the Oscar. I don't care what anyone says for this movie. She was just yeah in a standout role, which was like Taylor made for her.
Speaker: um That's just um you know my opinion. I thought she was fantastic. i mean Even people who didn't like the movie liked her performance and in their reviews. but ah and one you know One thing was that it came out in July, and it was amazing that they remembered it at Oscar time, and it got nominated for an Oscar. i remember at the time being...
Speaker: being pretty happy about that, that they did keep it in mind for the end of the year. um they I also like how they the perspective of the movie was from the ghost's point of view, which you know could have very easily been from Demi Moore's point of view, and it wouldn't have been nearly as good, I think, than it was if whether from the ghost's point of view. It kind of added a little bit of a little bit of humor and a tragic story i guess yeah yeah um they got that idea from uh from hamlet i guess that was the way they got the idea jerry zucker he of zucker abraham zucker fame it was him the movie yes it is him yes yes and they were very concerned that he was going to try to turn this into a wacko comedy and he's like no trust me trust me no i I want to you know change the way I make movies and this is going to be drama, drama all the way. Oh, well that's good though. Maybe that explains the light touches because parts of it were kind of funny.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That's suckers humor for you. Okay. Yeah. Um, and I think the digital video effects that they used in this movie were spot on. I don't think, you know, I tend to look at movies like if they made it today, would they have changed some of the special effects in it?
Speaker: Oh, for sure. Um, I mean, I don't even know if they were digital but specialists special effects. Did digital exist back then? I don't think so, but it it worked. Whatever they did worked, and I don't think you need today's touch to try to improve that. know might disagree on that part, but... well yeah The end looked a little bit like when he's going into the light, and it's like, oh, that looks a little goofy, but... But I'm going to split the difference, though. I yeah i agree, looking back 25 years of special effects to me aren't so wonderful. But that's what mean. It's more romance than supernatural. I didn't care about the effects so much. It's like, oh, that's just to propel the romantic story.
Speaker: Yeah. Doesn't make or break it. but yeah so Yeah. Yeah. And you know the new music, don't forget about the music. The score was nominated. And you know they made good use twice and in theme and variations again with Unchained Melody. You could not get away from that That good touch.
Speaker: Yeah, that was a big hit again in 1990. I mean, it came out in, I guess it's from 55. The Righteous Brothers recorded it in 65. And in 1990, it was ah another another big hit.
Speaker: But I think the only complaint I really have about the movie is is the Molly character. I don't think she had much, Molly is Demi Moore's character. I don't think she had much depth to her. I would have liked to maybe a little bit more to make her seem a little bit real other than just the woman who's crying over losing her lover, that kind of thing. But yeah, that's my only complaint. But other than that, I really love the movie. Yeah. I actually really like Ghost 2. was prepared to be very disappointed watching it 30 plus years later, 35 years later, but actually totally delighted by it still. I do like romances, so I'm, you know, but I like a good one. I don't like bad ones. um
Speaker: But I think there's a little bit more. This is a suspense and thriller as well, so it's a lot tied up into it. ah I think that, yeah, I think this is... um peak demi moore and peak patrick swayze probably yeah and demi moore is crying real tears a lot in this movie i have to say i'm always impressed with that skill if you can cry real tears on on cue then wow you got something um i thought uh um whoopi goldberg Whoopi Goldberg was great. I think Dylan has something else to say about that. I agree with you, Rob. I think that maybe she deserved that Oscar. But it was going to be the best acting Whoopi Goldberg has ever done, I think. I don't think she's done anything.
Speaker: since So it's like it's great that she got the Oscar because she was never she never really acted seriously that that seriously again in that way. Was Color of Purple before this? that was Yeah, Color Purple was 85.
Speaker: Yeah, I think. um And she was good in that too. So I think when she does want to act, she can. but Or she acts like Whoopi Goldberg and it works for the... for the the role But yeah, I thought she was great in it. um I don't I think the story moves along quickly. doesn't waste any time. ah Patrick Swayze as a banker is kind of hilarious. Like, he just does not have the look of a banker at all. so Plus, it does it is it like, i have a briefcase full of papers, and I go to my DOS computer. It's kind of funny. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. You were, you know, if you had a briefcase in the eighties, it meant you were in business or finance. So yeah, worked in New York. You have a briefcase. Yes, exactly. So working girl.
Speaker: um Yeah. So I don't know. I think I'm really charmed by ghost and I'm actually happy to see it nominated here. um So kind of thumbs up ish for this one. oh yeah.
Speaker: um We are going to talk about The Godfather Part 3. So I will admit that Godfather 3, at the time, i was fine with it. My 19-year-old self was absolutely fine and liked it and was intrigued to go and see the backstory.
Speaker: so But, you know, watching it again, i've watched it probably a couple more times since... Maybe just two. And it is truly not a very good movie when you compare it to Godfather 1 and 2. And we have to ask why this movie was made other than I guess it was a cash grab by the studio or Coppola. I have no idea. um It's, you know, the end of the Michael Corleone story where he's trying to legitimize his empire And by at this age, no idea. But, um you know, it's got the grown kids. It's got Sofia Coppola doing a terrible job, unfortunately. Even I think she acknowledges that like, hey, when your dad asks you to be in a movie, you don't say no. um
Speaker: But yeah, it's not a it's not a very good movie, unfortunately. um Maybe if it was the only one made of instead of the other, you know, maybe we'd say, oh, actually, it's not that bad. But compare it when you compare it to Godfather one and two. um i don't know. At some point, Al Pacino decides to stop acting and he's just doing his scent of a woman or he's kind of gearing up for his scent of a woman. The scent of a woman after this, it was right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think he's gearing up for his scent of a woman, like, who kind of you starting to devolve into this so strange southern accent that, like, he doesn't actually have. And I don't know, Rob, what what is your thought on Godfather 3? Are you a fan? um No, I'm not. It's hard to be. I mean, the first two, the first two both on Best Picture, but, you know, outside of that, I think they're both classics in their own right in this movie. you know, unless you're going to make a a classic, I mean, how do you know that going in, in their defense, but unless you're going to make a classic, why, why does it need to be made? Um, one of the the critics said it's, it was like a tedious effort to flog an old hippopotamus into action. You know, accurate you know it's just accurate. Yeah. Um,
Speaker: Yeah, the plot was very convoluted. um i thought you really had to see the first two films to know what's going on. Yeah. i I think, like, there's certain things in the movie that didn't make much sense. Like, they had this romance scene between andy Garcia and Sofia Coppola, who were cousins, I guess.
Speaker: He's playing around with the godfather's daughter, which makes no sense. And it's his cousin. And they really had no spark together, I guess. There was really no... don't know. It was so short, you can't really say there was no chemistry. didn't really give them a chance.
Speaker: But... um Yeah, I mean, they they did weird things, like they killed the Pope in this movie, which I thought was just kind of weird. um But, I mean, there were other ridiculous parts. um you know There was an argument between two guys in so in his in his office, Michael Cullieron's office, and and one guy had his ear bitten off during the arguments. Oh, yeah. Weird.
Speaker: Weird. You know, I'm like, really? Like, it just, to I don't know. What is this, a Tyson fight? I mean, it's funny how you can, in the first Godfather, you can put a horse's head in someone's bed and make it work, but yet you can't have someone's ear bitten off in the third one because the material around it was not that strong. Right. They didn't even decide upon the ending of the movie until two months, I guess, before the film was released. They had shot, like, different endings, and it was just mess. One thing I know that everyone in the world is going to disagree with me on, but I don't think Sofia Coppola was that bad. I think she was. Wow.
Speaker: I don't, I don't, I mean, it' like put it this put it this way. I wonder how it feels to be so wrong about something, Rob. Can you expound on that? Yeah. Well, I'll explain. I'll explain. I just, I mean, I know, I know even she's acknowledged it wasn't like, you know, the the best role and and everyone, you know, 99.9% of the public disagree with that, but it's kind of like if you put, You know how they make high school movies and they don't use high school kids. They use actors in their 20s and sometimes early 30s. And they really push the invoke. Because if you put a 15-year-old person in a 15-year-old's role, you're going to be like, you're going to be dumbfounded. It's going to be like. Well, there's also legalities around a lot of it also. But anyway. Yeah. good yeah But yeah you just don't want to see a 15-year-old playing a 15-year-old. So this is the daughter playing a daughter. um It's the director's daughter playing the daughter of the Godfather.
Speaker: um And she is acting like a daughter word And it's not, you know, they they wanted Winona Ryder, I guess, for this role first. Yeah, which I think might have been even more hilarious. ah Yeah, ah but she's she's yeah she's more of an actress, I guess, if you had to compare just the two of them in that universe. And I think Sophia was just being what the part called for.
Speaker: And that was just, you know, being being the the the kind of the daughter that she was. Rather than in an actress being, you know, showing her acting chops and in and overdoing it or being a little too overdramatic, she was who she was. And it's kind of like having a 15 year old play a 15 year old in a movie. She was a daughter playing a daughter. And that's what it was. So. Well, I think that take on it doesn't even matter because it was a shit part in a shit movie. And so having somebody better wouldn't have improved the movie significantly. Correct. But I do think that Sophia Coppola watching the performance now is like truly embarrassing because she's not an actor. Yeah.
Speaker: And it's it's a little bit painful for me to watch now. Just like, ooh, it's very – her performance is very cringey. So it's not like it ruined the movie because the movie sucked anyway. But I i do think that that is something laughable to watch is just the yeah the part of Gary. Don't get me wrong. i'm I'm saying if you had to recast the movie and it were you know it we' up to any of us, I think we'd all pick someone else as would I. i' yeah I'm not saying like she was the only one. as She was the best one for this part. Moira Kelly not available? Because she's a great.
Speaker: That would have been better. She was great Winona Ryder stand in back then. She was the poor man's Winona Ryder, Moira Kelly. Yeah. i thought I just thought she was a little vulnerable and simplistic, which is what the role called for. I mean, in fairness, yeah, but I just think that there's a way to do that where I'm still not cringing. But in fairness, it was a shit role, I think. So, yeah you know, I think she became a better director than actor, although that's also definitely a definite. That's another podcast episode as well that we'll never do. But um deb debates over debating on her talent as a director. Is it called You Shot Your Wad and we're going to have all sorts of directors in there? like rob Dylan, I know that you really like Godfather 3. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker: Oh, what a gem. beginning Just kidding. Boy, everything right with Hollywood is ghost. Everything wrong with Hollywood is the Godfather Part 3. What a bloated, nonsensical piece of shit.
Speaker: It's the reason we have endless garbage out there. Like, hey, let's do Arrested Development again 10 years later. Like, why would we fucking do that? It ended. ah What a senseless cash grab. Yeah. Everything about it was terrible. There's not one thing to recommend about this.
Speaker: The acting is awful, especially Pacino. Oh, my God. just yeah He still had some good roles left in him, so it wasn't like he had totally thrown in the towel. But like you said, g Gladys, maybe this was the start of...
Speaker: you know I just act to get money for my Shakespeare productions, so I'm just going to show up and go hoo-ha. Right, you know in Central Park. um Endless callbacks of characters. Like, who gives a shit? um So everything was wrong. Yes, the plot was so convoluted. was like, who cares? And it's the fact that they said it so long ago, it's like I don't know what you're talking about. This isn't contemporary. i don't know what you're... What? The Pope? Who gives a shit? It was just so...
Speaker: Everything was just wrong. The the the acting was terrible. The writing was terrible. The directing was terrible. But hey, three hours in an opera. Ugh. So no, it was it was awful on its own terms. It's awful. Then when you think where it came from, you go, oof, what a mistake.
Speaker: So I think we're in agreement. Yes. All thumbs down for Godfather 3. In fact, don't see it. You don't see need to see Yeah, please don't see the first two and just end it there. Just pretend it didn't happen. We see it so you don't have to. never happened. Yeah, it didn't happen. You do want to pretend that this movie didn't happen. um But we're going to move on to another mobster movie, Goodfellas. Dylan, why don't you start on Goodfellas? You're the reason I've seen Goodfellas so many times, so...
Speaker: So many times. It was so refreshing. And it's funny to to talk about after Godfather 3. Gangster movies up to the Godfather had been real morality plays. Like Jimmy Cagney has a spectacular rise from the slums. and You kind of understand why he's into organized crime. But after while, you realize he's a bad guy and he's got to get his comeuppance.
Speaker: And that's how it always been. They're always the bad guys, which they are in real life, obviously. The Godfather, first one, is very unique and it made it operatic and like family dynamics. And it made it like, oh, they have their own code of ethics and they're very upstanding, which is also nonsense.
Speaker: Goodfellas set the template now. from the Sopranos to every other gangster movie, it it showed how it really was. A lot of fun, and you could get killed at any moment.
Speaker: Very exhilarating. Always on a high, always action, but always dangerous, which feeds into the action. And if you look at it now, the Scorsese direction seems kind of cliched with like the the the freeze frames,
Speaker: And, you know, the the kind of quick cutting and the panning. But he hadn't done that up until that point. He'd been, I wouldn't say traditional. That that's that was, he was never that. This was new style Scorsese.
Speaker: New style Scorsese, which kind of solidified into what we think of as Scorsese. At the time, it's very novel. It's like, what's going on here? And for something that's so part of pop culture, it's very it's a very daring movie. It starts halfway through the the plot.
Speaker: Again, it's almost like a foreign movie in a lot of ways. this He's playing with time. He's playing with perspective. But it's never, for me, anything less than entertaining. um it's it's surprisingly funny. Now, some of it's you know very dark humor funny, but I think that shows the perspective of the character, Henry Hill, who, by the way, I think his actions are probably heavily sanitized but in the movie, but it's his perspective. like Well, to their point of view, these things are funny, and they're just guys hanging out. They just happen to do loan sharking and beat people up, maybe a little murder, but to their point of view, it's just they're just a gang having fun,
Speaker: um And it shows the glamour of it, shows why it would be seductive, especially through the Karen Hill character played by Lorraine Bracco. We see things through her eyes where she's like, well, i know, I kind of understand what he does for a living, but I got to say, ah kind of respect him for it, you know, or kind of turns me on. you You see it through their character's eyes and and it's not highly stylized like the Godfather. It's not also not moralistic like public enemy or, you know,
Speaker: any of those old 30s movies, Little Caesar, it's very kind of matter of fact, like real life is. So parts of are really funny, parts are real scary. um parts are mundane and then parts are like, oh, that's extraordinary. That's really not my life. So I think at for what it is, it's it's highly entertaining and ah and a wonderful movie that and that an average person could watch, I think, and and get something out of it.
Speaker: I think in terms of like cinema, it's very groundbreaking. It's hard to appreciate how groundbreaking is because it's constantly moving. It's it's very entertaining with set piece, but it's The direction and the plot structure and the idea of absolutely no moralizing with the characters makes it very revolutionary. I think it's a great movie on its own. I think it's highly influential. I think everyone should see it once as an example of a good gangster movie. if you don't like those movies, I don't blame you.
Speaker: But this is the best of those movies. And it's it's ah the acting is is wonderful. So that's I guess I liked it. You clearly hated it. Rob, what do you think?
Speaker: Yeah, what a movie. um It was a joy to see this movie again. And I know this won't be the last time that I see it either. i agree with everything that Dylan said. He used the word template.
Speaker: it It was a template for all future kind of gangster organized crime movies. It's definitely i don't think there's much dispute in the fact that it's the best movie about organized crime or of this genre.
Speaker: mobster movie it's one of the best movies i think made period uh it's it's definitely in the conversation uh as far as a ah classic goes and i don't use that term loosely um the there's you know there's some interesting parts about it like i think you know pesci was he won the best supporting actor right Definitely deserved convincing psychopath ad-libbed a lot of his lines, um which was amazing. I thought Paul Servino's performance was underrated as well. Yeah, he should have got recognized. He was really good in this.
Speaker: He should have. He should have. I mean, it was all about the big three, Ray Liotta, Robert De Niro, and Joe Pesci. But I mean, really should have been four of them. um they They used Henry Hill's character, Ray Liotta's character, Henry Hill, was the narrator, which I thought was an interesting way to do it. um They used stop motion a lot to explain things. It stopped the video and he would explain you what's going on, but not in a demeaning way. I thought that was a strong ah strong part of the movie.
Speaker: um the influential nature of the movie can't possibly be underestimated. um Like Dylan said, ah just to hop on his comments, you know, there is no Sopranos without this, without this kind of movie. um They originally called it Wise Guy, but I guess there was a lot of other films or TV shows called Wise Guys. So they they called it Goodfellas, which was kind of another another name for the wise guys, the the mobsters.
Speaker: um There was no score during the movie, um which I thought was... Really? There was no music in it? hold move No, no score. There was classic rock songs and there was narration, but there was no kind of instrumental background movie to tell you when to be scared, to tell you when to be nervous. Yes, okay. And the movie, that that says a lot when you don't have that in a movie to really show you how to feel. It's not slapping you in the face with emotion. You bring up a good point. Most of the music is very uplifting and exhilarating.
Speaker: Like even they're beating someone to death to the tune of Donovan. It's like, that looks like kind of fun. Like I think it's like it's from their point of view where everything's kind of fun and energetic. Of course, it's like kind of fun classic rock or you know what I mean? All from their point of view. Yeah. Like we're horrified with what's going on, but they're – killing somebody they're exhilarated they're exhilarated yeah you got like eric clapton george harrison and you know people like that in there um i think not to be not to spoil the the what the podcast at all but i think it's one of the best movies that didn't win best picture um my my thought i thought it was it was a long movie but it wasn't long enough um i that's just my take on it yeah i mean i feel just just the right length honestly um yeah i mean i probably can't add too much more to i agree with both of both your summaries um And I was thinking, I could not remember when I first saw it, but I do remember, I must've seen it pretty early because I still remember Paul Sorvino's character. Like, you know, um he had, Paulie had a great way of, was that his name in it? Paulie? No. Paulie.
Speaker: Paulie had a great way of cutting cutting of the garlic with a razor blade. So it would liquefy in the plate. you know And I remember I was into food at the time. Well, I still am, but you know, I was like, oh, that's interesting. Would that happen if I could get the garlic thin enough with that liquefy in the pan? And I don't think I've ever gotten the garlic thin enough. So I just need a razor blade. but um Only probably could do it. so i yeah yeah Yeah, exactly. And i remember that from a long time ago. So I must have seen it early on. and I've seen it so many times since. And I have to say this movie does age well, like fine wine. like it just I think it gets better every time you watch it. You catch new things. or It's just it's it's it's a movie about violence and reprehensible violence.
Speaker: behavior but the way yeah the way the music is and the way the way he films it it it makes it easy to watch without sugarcoating any of it although i will say and we've commented on this several times that um the main character henry hill rarely is implicated in any murder and i think that was on purpose because he was a i think he advised on the movie as well did he did he not or I think this is the movie in the Scorsese style that we have come to know that I like the most. He also employs it in Wolf of Wall Street, so I like it in that movie. I don't like Casino as much. So I think that like he's really coming out with this new style, and I think it's best used in this movie where he's you know got the narration and the freeze frame and the playing with time a little bit. and It's just very fast and... and
Speaker: a fast moving movie and it's really fun. And I do love gangster movies. So that helps, but I don't like all of them. I don't like bad ones. So, uh, I think maybe we should just pretend this one is Godfather three and um, you know, that be cool let it wipe out the other one. Don't see that. See this one. if you're going to see a gangster movie from then. And, uh, yeah, I think it's a really, it is a really good movie and it it has grown on me more and more over the years. I will say that. Yeah, Scorsese at his best. Yeah, and I'm not even the biggest Scorsese fan, but I do like a lot of Scorsese movies.
Speaker: The thing with the the garlic, which I love, it's not a throwaway. It serves several purposes, which I love this in this movie. Everything serves a purpose. Like we've talked about the Coen Brothers many times. Rob's a huge fan of the Coen Brothers. Hmm.
Speaker: what even there Even a movie you don't like of theirs, everything serves a purpose. Every line serves a purpose. Every scene serves a purpose to to further the movie or further the plot. The Coen brothers don't waste screen time and they don't waste lines.
Speaker: With a movie like this, and you said Wolf of Wall Street, it can seem like a big frenetic mess, but it's not. He's he's very much he's very careful of his choices. So what like about the garlic, to it shows two things.
Speaker: One, from their point of view, and Henry mentions it, about like, oh, guys like us, meaning Italians, can go to the cops. So we kind of had to go to people like Pauly and became an unofficial thing. To their mind, it's part of their whole Italian immigrant heritage. like there's nothing It's perfectly normal to make a ah a Sunday dinner shaving the garlic so liquefies as much as it's perfectly normal to to shake down somebody for money for protection. It's all part of this culture. so they they can It's not even compartmentalizing. They see it all as a piece where this is our culture that we have to have, and this is how it was done in Sicily. so We don't look at this as immoral. We just look as the way it is, which kind of helps with the characters. They don't question anything.
Speaker: just kind of go along with stuff because that's how it is. But I also like, it shows that Pauly is a very careful person, which he alludes to throughout. He's always very careful, doesn't talk on the phone, just gives a nod of his head. He's very meticulous and exacting.
Speaker: And he warns Henry, don't fuck around with drugs. Don't be stupid. Don't don't be careless, essentially. And Henry do? He fucks around with drugs and he gets reckless. He becomes careless. So even in that garlic scene, it's showing the older guys like Pauly and Jimmy,
Speaker: are very careful. The new guys like Tommy, Joe Pesci and Henry Hill, they're a bit reckless. They're kind of cowboys. And that was the ultimate downfall of, of a lot of organized crime that the new generations were very reckless. So I like that whole thing with the garlic. Cause it's actually very, it's a metaphor for how the old guard is very careful and they're not going to get in trouble. But these new kids like Henry and the Joe Pesci character, Tommy are ah wild and they're reckless and they can't be trusted. So all of that just from shaving garlic.
Speaker: Yeah. What a movie. I, i think and it makes me think of ah how i i do think that scorsese is a better director than coppola um oh yeah because you get so many really memorable um moments out of ah out of all his movies through over time right so uh i'm thinking of uh um uh you think i'm funny you know joe pesci going in that whole thing about you think i'm fine you everybody remembered that for a Am I a clown? Do I amuse And going back to, you know, you talking to me, you know, ah Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver, you talking to me? And I think that like Scorsese always peppers his movies with these funny little scenes. I'm thinking Wolf of Wall Street with Matthew McConaughey like beating his chest and doing weird things are just like these great iconic moments um that stand out and don't take away from movie and just make it really fun to watch. And then think the other thing is he's such a great, um maybe he's a great director of actors. I hadn't thought about this till now because Ray Liotta, really, this was his best role ever, I think. I can't think of anything. Like i always thought, oh, Ray Liotta must be a great actor. You see him in everything else and he's not that good of an actor. you know So he's really used a great effect in this movie.
Speaker: I think that I feel the same way about Leonardo DiCaprio. like I don't really like him in any other movies except for Scorsese movies. Or Tarantino. Or Tarantino movies. So you need a really good, solid director to get some good performances out of some of these actors. So I think that, um yeah, I think that it's clear we all really like the movie. So yeah.
Speaker: <unk>t And i couldn't I couldn't remember why it reminded me of the Coen brothers till Dylan brought that up. I thought of the Coen brothers during this movie, and maybe it's the lack of like wasted screen time. maybe Maybe it was just kind of the the the heartbeat of the movie. the you know was was you Maybe it was that Darwin scene, and that was yeah the economy. Yeah, exactly. And I didn't mention that it reminded me of them and because I didn't know why. Oh, so it did before I said it?
Speaker: Yes. oh that's fine yes it reminded me of them. I just, yeah, I had no idea why. And you you explained to why. so all right All right. Moving on to our last movie, which was the winner ah that year, Dances with Wolves. Going to be honest with you, Rob, ah Dylan and I have been very curious about your feelings on Dances with Wolves. So why don't you start?
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. No, I love Dances with Wolves. I've seen it several times. Amazing for a directorial debut by Kevin Costner. I just Didn't think that, um you know, leading up to that, he had it in him, but apparently he did. um Screenplay was amazing. Score was amazing. Cinematography.
Speaker: um It was a hard film to make, I guess, for them. was turned down by several studios who because Westerns weren't popular, but this was a rare Western that won Best Picture.
Speaker: I think Cimarron was the last one in 1931. And what was, oh, no country for old men after that. So there's not a lot of Westerns. Unforgiven. Yeah. Yeah. Not a lot of Westerns that are in there for best picture. So I thought that was, so that was pretty good. it's It was, ah you know, the, the intentions of this movie were very noble, so to speak. I think that they, um they, they kind of had fun, had fun with it because it was a ah serious topic. But yet it was kind of lighthearted towards the middle and the end, especially, you know, how he got his name and how everyone got their names, the Indians and that. But, you know, the beginning starts off very serious with his, I guess you'd call it a suicide attempt where he rides on that horse and dares everyone to shoot him because, you know, he's going to lose his leg or lose his life. And, you know, he's in real dire straits at the beginning and he survived that. So he kind of dedicated his life to moving out west, seeing the frontier and kind of living with
Speaker: people making friends with and later living with the the Indians. um I think you pointed out, one of you pointed out earlier before we went on that they were, they called themselves the Lakota.
Speaker: And I guess the Sioux, Dylan was saying that there was a name given to them by the by the French. So I didn't know that. I learned that. So They were the, as we know them, the Sioux um Indians, but there, I guess the language was kind of laughable. um the The way they used it because people who spoke Lakota saw the movie. And I guess as a male, the males have to speak in one type of the language of females in the other. And guess Kostner kind of spoke in the female version, which made them laugh a little bit. But, um you know, this movie this movie did did a lot for the Native Americans, I think. Yeah. I think they appreciated the way they were depicted a lot in this movie, um despite the fact that Indian didn't tell the story. It was called an all from Kevin Costner, John Dunbar's point of view.
Speaker: um i think um I think the score, i always have to mention it, John Barry's score was amazing, won for best best score, of the music.
Speaker: John Barry of James Bond thing? I believe so. and I believe he's the same guy, John Barry. No, i it's it's one of those movies that I could see over again and over again. It's a little it's a little on the long side. I'm kind of gathering you guys didn't like it as much as I did, but I enjoyed this movie. how We haven't said anything. How do you know?
Speaker: What's giving it away here? No, because of the way you're so curious. love Westerns. Westerns are my favorite genre. wow I don't know. I don't think I'm just guessing you guys didn't like it as much as me. I don't know. How dare you? I don't and know how you can tell. I am hoping I will never see this movie again. um ok Listen, I'm not going to say I hated it. There are movies I hate, but I did see it. Like I think in 1990, you could not get away from this movie. It was a huge hit. So I did go to see it and I don't remember disliking it, but I also don't remember liking it because I don't remember anything about it. So I did have to rewatch it because I remembered nothing about it other than Kevin Costner went to hang out with the Lakota and um that, and then he falls in love with Mary McDonald, who has like the best blow on the prairie that should have been awarded a special Oscar. Honestly, like she's got the seventies fair faucet hair and, and like she's on the prairie and I'm like, really, was that what, what we would expect her to have? So she was supposed to look wild or something like that, but, um
Speaker: i So when I rewatched it, i just I think I was really hopeful that I had not really... had admit like not really absorb that movie as a gem into my favorite movies from back then. so you wanted tell you wanted to like it. I was just really looking forward to it, and I thought, I bet going to really like this. And and I didn't. ah It was really long. I think we had to break up the watching time over a couple of nights. It just was so long, and it just feels like not much happens. um There's really no...
Speaker: other than like the first kind of part of the movie where, yeah, there's some conflict for Kevin Costner who's injured and then he's, the he gets sent off to go and, um I don't know, set up this outpost or I didn't really understand why he was there, but anyway, it didn't really matter. But, um and then he kind of slowly makes friends with the, the local Indians. And, um then that's it. He just keeps making friends with them. And then,
Speaker: at the end the, you know, the soldiers come and are like, well, fuck that and cause some trouble, but that really not much happens. He, he's not conflicted in any way. And I think that's what makes, uh, for kind of a, an uninteresting main character. And I think this is a problem with Kevin Costner's that he refuses to be kind of a a conflicted character, um which would have made it way more interesting, I think. But,
Speaker: I just kind of felt like it was a lot of long shots. I think he was really going for David Lean-esque aesthetic. It's our name again. Right. yeah We do love our David Lean. um And I just...
Speaker: was underwhelmed by it. I didn't hate it, but I would say I was very underwhelmed and overwhelmed by how long it was. ah And I kind of, in the end, didn't care enough about the character for him. Like they they have a happy ending.
Speaker: I would say I have probably the opposite feeling of this movie to to Rob. um ah'm not I'm not a fan. it didn't hold up for me over time. don't know. Maybe other people still like it. Maybe it holds up in some other way. I mean, it is a period piece, so what's to date it? But Kevin Costner just seems... I think I'm not a Costner fan. So maybe somebody else in this role, but maybe also somebody else writing the script and maybe somebody else directing it, it. it. So I guess if it was a different movie, I would have enjoyed it quite a bit. Yeah. So Dylan, what but what about you? What do you think about Dances with Wolves?
Speaker: So Western is my favorite film genre. I've seen, for all the big ones, I've seen every ah one of them. And I've probably seen all the well-regarded Westerns.
Speaker: um There's no way anyone could see all the Westerns. like They used to make 200 a year back in 1919. But i would I would challenge anyone who knows more about Westerns than me, for quite frankly.
Speaker: This is the weirdest Western I've ever seen. um It's very odd. I remember at the time seeing it, and for you kids out there, should always try and see the movies in the movie theater, even though you know you're not going to.
Speaker: When you see some of the shots on the big screen, it's hard not to just fall into them. know, these great shots of open ranges and ah you know, the cavalry and the horses. um So it can be very mesmerizing to watch, which is a different experience on a small screen because then you tend to concentrate more on story and characters.
Speaker: It's a weird Western. Nothing really happens. There's no real conflict. and Lakota kind of like, oh, you're cool. I guess we'll accept you. It's like... Yeah, I guess all the conflict seemed to happen at the beginning of this movie, all that you're looking for with his, you know, he he's in dire straits at the beginning, like I was alluding to in my review with his his the situation with his leg and everything and his kind of suicide attempt there where you dared everyone to shoot him and That was all at the beginning. I think then it just kind of relaxed from that point forward. Well, that's the case, that's 15 minutes of conflict and two hours and 45 minutes of no conflict. So essentially a movie about conflict. But even the beginning, it's not clear. Like, I guess you're disillusioned with civilization. See, you you want to go out?
Speaker: out west or sympathetic. I mean he has no motive. He has no inner life. There's no motivation. And when he talks the narration, he's just relaying events. He's never like, oh, I felt this way. I felt that way. it's It's very, it's, it, there's no, there's no motivation. There's no character development. And even if I grant the first 15 minutes, again, that leaves two hours and 45 minutes of no conflict. Um,
Speaker: You know, the Indians kind of, oh, excuse me, the Lakota kind of accept him fairly, fairly quickly and easily. i mean, it's kind of humorous, but, you know no you know, he's not threatened with being scalped or anything. It just so happens there's a white woman there. Isn't that convenient? Now, that did happen. I understand that. But as Glenna says, she looked like Heather Locklear. It's like, you don't have braids? um So that was that was kind of shoehorned in to give him a love interest.
Speaker: In the end, they kind of ride off into the sunset after they defeat another, i forget if the soldiers came. don't know. ah They just, this is very weird. I'm not even saying it's bad. It's just nothing really happens for three hours. And that's very daring.
Speaker: I have to admit that there's barely a plot. There's zero character development but But he did it. i don't think a good director. There's a reason all his other movies are humongous flops because he's not a good director. I think he got this because they they were never they they took so long to give a Scorsese film and there was nobody And they love when actors do this. They love when Robert Redford did it, who has directed other movies besides Ordinary People. the best director this year? i'm a costner Kevin Costner. Just throwing that out there. yeah when he's Well, he shouldn't have got it, but fine. I wonder if he gets it because the bar for actors being directors at the time is so low. It's like, ooh, Kevin, an actor is a director. This is amazing. Let's just reward him for that.
Speaker: Yeah, that's why Bradley Cooper's never going to get one, because it's not an kind it's not an amazing achievement that a big star can direct now. It's like, oh, well, yes, you all do that. But the time, it was still pretty novel. Mel Gibson got his in 95. Clinista got his in 92. But Mel Gibson, Clinista, and Robert Redford still made entertaining, kind of popular movies. Costner never did. He did Waterworld. Well, technically he did do Waterworld. But people did love this movie. right? Oh, no, they did. Yeah. No, it's very, it's much beloved. I'm just saying it's a very odd movie because nothing's really happening for three hours, which is kind of to its credit that it's, it's almost like a, like an art piece where it's just scenes of stuff and things kind of happen, but they're not going to a particular place. And he, he never has conflict.
Speaker: He's never like, Oh gee, am I doing the right thing with these people? He's like, Oh sure. And they never have a conflict. like gee whiz, like you're kind of our enemy. it all It's all kind of seamless. It works out fine. you know and i Oh, sorry. i think I think he wants it to seem like it's an old-fashioned throwback, but no Western has ever been like this. So again, it's kind of interesting. It has the feel of like, oh, we're going back in time. But like no, there's never been a Western like this, actually, which again is to its credit, I think. I think the reason is is that because in the end it turned into a romance. Yeah.
Speaker: And maybe that's the whole thing is that maybe it's always the And the conflict, the tension is, is it will they, won't they? That's really, that that is a classic romance trope, right? Will they, won't they? Are they going to, oh, they're from different worlds. How are they going to overcome that? But it was a long way to get to that. If that was going to be the end result, you could have chopped out an hour in the middle.
Speaker: I think in the end it was it was popular because it was a romance that the women could openly admit that they enjoyed, um but it was had a lot of Western stuff which could draw the men in without them pretending they liked the romance too. think that's absolutely accurate. Yes. Yeah. And so that that that had wide appeal. And plus romance movies were still...
Speaker: big, which is Francis Coppola had to jam a romance into Godfather three, even though it didn't deserve that. Um, same with awakenings, right? Yeah.
Speaker: yeah And ghost was romance. So romance was guaranteed way to get everybody out as long as you disguised it enough. So it didn't look exactly like a romance. Right. And so in this case, it's like a Western, but it's also a romance, but it's a, it's action and it's adventure. And yeah so I think, um,
Speaker: I think that's why maybe you find it disappointing. And then I find it disappointing because I, I, if it's going to be a romance, i I would have had multiple multiple ways to tweak that to make the tension a bit better. And, you know, it's like the, the Lakota seemed to accept him very quickly. There was almost no real quick.
Speaker: Yeah. There was no conflict. And he's like, Oh, let me jump into this war with the other tribe with you. And, I think that's the other problem is that Kevin Costner has to, he portrays any character he plays, he's very noble and there's no nuance to his character. If he's in charge, yes. If he's directing. Even movies as late his career as Tin Cup show him as being this kind of amoral rascal, which is, that's a Kevin Costner I like. Rob, do you want rebut Dylan and I at all? Oh, wait. I didn't even say if I like it or not. I think everyone should see this because it was a huge movie at the time and is much beloved. I just find it very confounding. I'm never going to watch it again. don't think it's a good Western, but Glenn has straightened that out. It's truly a romance. So maybe if you view it for that, I think it really makes sense. Just for me, a three-hour romance is a tough sell. So I didn't like it, but I'd recommend it. Everyone should see it. I'm just never going to see it.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, everyone should see it. it's it's um I admired it for the fact that it its didn't have to have a lot going on to be a great movie. It's like a movie with, ah you know, movies with dialogue. They're like, well, nothing happened. They just talked the whole movie, like Annie Hall or whatever.
Speaker: Well, it's brilliant dialogue. You know I mean? The the cinematography and the the things that did happen were strong enough for it not to have to have a lot of conflict to be a Best Picture winner. So I just,
Speaker: I don't know this, ah there's a certain charm about this movie that I admired and enjoyed and I wouldn't mind seeing it again. I didn't want to rewatch it for this podcast because I had seen it several times before. So um it's not, ah it's, I think the last time I saw it was maybe like two, three years ago. But I've seen it several times and I'm, you know I see it several more.
Speaker: what Why don't you tell us, did the Academy get it right? Do you agree with Dances as Wills or would you have picked a different movie? No, they did not get it right. Dances with Wolves is a wonderful movie, but it's not Best Picture. Wow. Clearly, it's Goodfellas. Nice. Goodfellas by a mile. was not expecting that. I'm not knocking Dances with Wolves at all. Everything I said about it, I feel strongly about. But Goodfellas, it's a five-star movie out of five. I mean, you know two thumbs up. that I'd give it a third if I had a third thumb, but I don't.
Speaker: Yeah, Goodfellas is everything a movie should be. it's it's it Like I said, ah the fact that it didn't have any music in it to like point out to you how you should be feeling in the movie is is just one of the absolute strongest things about this movie. Yes, they did play classic rock songs to show the enjoyment that they have, you know, as we talked about earlier, doing their they're mobster things and acting like they they acted. But um we we know how to feel in the certain scenes and we're we're not stupid. It didn't beat us over the head with that.
Speaker: um it the fact that it didn't win best picture is just still astounding to me and the fact that scorsese didn't win best director is still astounding to me um i wasn't upset that the ends of the falls did win but i was upset that goodfellas lost if that makes any sense um yeah no it's it's the closest thing to a to a perfect movie that you'll you'll ever see goodfellas and it's uh it's a movie everyone should see whether you like this genre of movies or not it's a movie that that everyone can enjoy over a certain age you know or over over 17 yeah you know some some pretty hairy violence in it but has to be expected and that's my pick for a best picture uh i agree of rob it's good fellas and i i agree with everything he said have no rebuttal it's of the
Speaker: top 100 movies of all time. And absolutely if Goodfellas hadn't been in the mix and say it was Reversal of Fortune or The Grifters, I would have said the Academy got right with Dances Wolves um over the other three movies and any other movie. Yeah, no, I mean, it was a huge film it was very popular. Like, that's cool. Well, you know, and it was a achievement for Kevin Costner, who's never done that again. But when it's Goodfellas, like, oh, no, that that was clearly the winner.
Speaker: Again, I would normally say the dance of wolves. That's perfect Academy Award winning material. I totally understand. But it's like, no not with Goodfellas, though. Oops, I think you made a mistake. So.
Speaker: Curious to hear what Clintus thinks. Yeah, three for three. Goodfellas. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. was going to maybe throw a ghost. Just kidding. um No, I think, yeah, it's a great movie that has been has grown more and more on me as time goes by. And i yeah, i definitely think that the Academy made a mistake that year for whatever political reason that they sometimes... yeah Do, right? So, so ah but yeah, I can't. I agree with both of you on this one. Goodfellas is the clear winner. It's a classic. It's still enjoyable. It didn't get dated. um
Speaker: yeah great movie. they They should have picked it. Dylan, why don't you tell us what we are doing for the next episode? We're going to do 2011. We're going to break from tradition slightly. We're not going to go through all the movies that were nominated. We're going to the slide that we think not only were maybe the best five, but also maybe had the best chance of winning the Oscar other than the winner. The Artist, which did win, Moneyball, Hugo, The Descendants, and Midnight in Paris. All right. See you next episode.
