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100 Jamie Greenwood | Host of this Podcast!
470 Plays2 years ago
A snapshot of everything that I've learned through all of the episodes and amazing guests that have been on the show. Huge thanks to everyone who's listening along each week and I'm looking forward to bringing you a host of amazing new guests in the new year!
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The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
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Transcript
Introduction to Partnership
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode is brought to you in partnership with Right Mentor.
00:00:03
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If you're a children's writer, you've probably heard of Right Mentor, and if not, do I have a treat for you.
00:00:08
Speaker
Right Mentor is a group of authors and friends who've built a supportive system for fellow storytellers from picture books up to young adult that delivers mentoring programs, courses and conferences and much, much more.
00:00:17
Speaker
Right Mentor has a range of services, but if you stick around until the end of the episode, you can find out how to get an entire month of their premium subscription, the Right Mentor Hub, for free.
00:00:26
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So I will see you at the end.
00:00:28
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Now, let's get back to the
Celebrating the 100th Episode
00:00:29
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episode.
00:00:29
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So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:31
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Are these your notes?
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These.
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Are these your notes about what we're going to say?
00:00:36
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Anything.
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Nailed it.
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It's a short answer.
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So how many novels did you not finish?
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Oh my God, so many.
00:00:43
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It was perfect.
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What are you talking about?
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This is not a good one.
00:00:47
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Ooh, a spicy question.
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I love it.
00:00:49
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This is it, guys.
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The big secret
Episode Structure Overview
00:00:52
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to getting publishers and having to write a good book.
00:00:55
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I'm going to hear first.
00:00:57
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We're good.
00:00:59
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Hello and welcome back to the 100th episode of the Right and Wrong podcast.
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And it's a bit different this week because it's just going to be me.
00:01:10
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For a long time I've been meaning to do a sort of retrospective of everything that I've learned through all of the amazing people I've met and interviewed since starting the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:01:19
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And I thought, what better time than now, towards the end of the year, the 100th episode.
00:01:25
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Across 100 episodes, there have been 65 authors, 22 agents, seven editors.
00:01:32
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Some of those previous people are doing two of those things simultaneously, which is amazing.
00:01:37
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But and then also a handful of publishing industry insiders and professionals.
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And I thought to myself, well, the best way of tackling this would probably be to break it into parts.
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So we'll start with part one, authors.
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Then I'll move into part two, which will be sort of agents and editors.
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And then I'll finish
Paths to Publishing Success
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off with some sort of final thoughts rounding up and all the sort of industry insider professional stuff.
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I'll kind of wrap into those other two sections.
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And then I will add my contribution to the Desert Island Library.
00:02:12
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Right then, part one, authors.
00:02:16
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I think the first thing that I want to mention when talking about authors, and this became very clear to me within just a half dozen episodes interviewing authors, is that
00:02:29
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There is no one way of writing, nor is there one path into publishing.
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And almost every single author that I know, that I've spoken to, has had a unique experience on their journey to being published.
00:02:49
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So what is, I think, regarded as the sort of standard, the traditional route for modern publishing is a writer writes a manuscript.
00:03:02
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They submit it to agents, which is a daunting and difficult task in of itself.
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Then they sign with an agent, which is a monumental achievement, but by no means the finish line.
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Then the agent will submit their manuscript after they've worked on it, polished it up a bit, will submit their manuscripts to publishers.
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And some manuscripts are snapped up very quickly.
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Others linger for a while before finding a home.
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But because of the very competitive nature of this industry, actually most manuscripts will, as people say, die on submission.
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I mean, that seems a bit bleak.
00:03:45
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I don't want to start off being too bleak, but it might be reassuring to know that many authors land an agent sometimes with a certain manuscript, but actually end up with their first publishing deal being with a different manuscript.
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So, I mean, just to reiterate, you are not locked into any one story just because you got...
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uh, picked up your agent with one manuscript that you wrote, one novel does not mean that that necessarily has to be the novel that has to be your debut.
00:04:16
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You know, it's all about putting, doing more writing, putting more stuff out there into the world, increasing your chances of getting signed.
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For example, um, podcast guest turned book Bezzy, Melissa Welliver was signed by an agent, uh, for a middle grade time travel novel, but, um,
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her debut, The Undying Tower, was actually, which is a dystopian YA, because her first one died on submission.
00:04:41
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She then ended up changing agents amicably.
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It was actually within the same agency, but she ended up changing agents.
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And then they went with The Undying Tower and
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which was not what she'd been picked up for.
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It was a sort of something she had on the side.
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And then that ended up being her debut.
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So, you know, anything can happen.
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You are not locked into
Perseverance in Writing
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the one first script that you wrote ever.
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I mean, more examples of how these things are sort of so varied.
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is um i had lizzie chantry on on the podcast she has always done self-publishing but also mixed in with traditional publishing but she has no agent so she works directly with a publisher but in between the books that come out with the publisher she self-publishes more things
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Angela Marsons is a similar kind of thing, although she did have an agent, but it was only after she lost her agent that she ended up signing directly with the publisher for a four book deal.
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has found huge success through that deal.
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And now the most recent signing was a 12 book deal, which is amazing.
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Rosie Talbot was going to self-publish.
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She tried going the sort of traditional route through submitting to agents, didn't have any luck.
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Then through promotion on a successful BookTok account, she was going to self-publish.
00:06:09
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At the last minute, that was then picked up by a big publisher.
00:06:12
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So, you know, it's amazing how many different things and different ways there are to publish your book, how to get into this industry.
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And, you know, on top of that, I've had a handful of authors who have changed agents.
00:06:26
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We've had people on who have published through Unbound, which is a crowdfunded publisher.
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People often are going from self-publishing to traditional or some people from traditional to self-publishing or hybrid.
00:06:39
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My point here is that there is no one way into publishing and there is no right or correct way to get into publishing.
00:06:47
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And kind of alongside that, I'm not going to go too far into this because I mean, there's, there's lots of different stuff you can look up about this, but that also goes the same for writing.
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There's no one way, correct way of writing.
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You know, you can write however much or little you want per day.
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You can write in whatever style you want.
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You can plan everything out.
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You can do everything just off the cuff.
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Everyone does different things.
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It's whatever works for you, but I don't want to dwell on that.
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This is going to be more sort of focused on the publishing side of stuff, the mechanics of the industry and all of that.
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So,
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through all of the authors that I've had on, I do, I do try and ask all of my guests for maybe something that they'd learned, something they wish they knew when they first got into the industry, perhaps a piece of advice that they would give either themselves when they were younger or other people who are looking to sort of follow in, in similar footsteps.
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And, um,
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I've got here what I think are the top three pieces of advice, this sort of recurring advice that I hear when I ask authors about, you know, what they've learned through their journey.
00:07:47
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And number one, I think, is persevere.
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Almost every author I've spoken to says, you know, it's such a hard industry.
00:07:56
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It's a tricky industry.
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And so much of it can be down to right time, right place, right story, right person.
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You know, I've had guests on the show who have hundreds of rejection letters and from agents.
00:08:09
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But the important thing is to remember a rejection doesn't necessarily mean the writing or the manuscript is bad.
00:08:14
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Sometimes
Community and Passion in Writing
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it's just not the right fit.
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The number of no's doesn't matter.
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All that matters is a single yes, you know.
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The second piece of advice, which I hear a lot is, and I'm so 100% for this, for me personally, it was sort of revolutionary in terms of just sort of finding a place and finding people to help me along the road to publishing is find your tribe.
00:08:38
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That's the advice there.
00:08:40
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And I mean, in the words of Right Mentor, double plug for the sponsor, publishing can be lonely, but it doesn't need to be.
00:08:48
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And there are plenty of reasons to find like-minded people and be part of a community, but especially in writing, because it is in many ways such a solitary craft.
00:08:58
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Surrounding yourself with, I think, like-minded writers not only inspires and encourages you to write more,
00:09:07
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But I think it also, you know, provides a sort of group around you to bounce ideas around with, to discuss deeper aspects of the craft, offer critique and like beta reading.
00:09:20
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And the other thing is that writing is such a roller coaster and it's important to have people around you.
00:09:27
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to celebrate the highs and the exciting things, as well as to have people there to support you when things don't go your way.
00:09:34
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And, you know, there are highs and lows to this whole thing.
00:09:37
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And it's great to have family and friends who are always going to support you no matter what.
00:09:42
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But, and this is something that I've found especially is, you know, if you do kind of get into the writing community and you understand how the various cogs and different things work,
00:09:52
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it's quite hard sometimes to talk to your friends or your family who don't really understand that.
00:09:58
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And as much as you try and explain it to them, it's the sort of thing that you have to sort of be a part, you have to sort of try it for yourself to really understand it.
00:10:05
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So find your tribe, I think is such, such great advice for anyone interested in sort of taking their writing and becoming part of the community.
00:10:15
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And then the third piece of advice, which I hear a lot is...
00:10:21
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And this is perhaps a slightly more esoteric bit of advice than the other two, but it's right about the thing that you are passionate about.
00:10:28
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So I say this is more esoteric.
00:10:30
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I think this will have a different meaning for everyone, but it's
00:10:35
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It's too recurring to be a coincidence that so many authors that I've spoken to have found their big break when they stop writing what they think people want to read and what they think agents or publishers want to publish.
00:10:52
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And they start writing the thing that they love, the thing that they're really passionate about.
00:10:57
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Because I genuinely believe that if you're writing about something that you are sort of obsessed with and just like so fascinated by, that fascination, that passion comes through onto the page.
00:11:08
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And it'll be when someone's reading it, they'll feel that energy coming through.
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And at that point, I think that rounds up authors.
00:11:17
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And I think that we'll come back to it at the end with sort of conclusions and stuff.
00:11:20
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But I want to move on to
Navigating the Agent Landscape
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agents and editors at this point.
00:11:25
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And the first thing...
00:11:29
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that I want to talk about is the individuality of agents, specifically.
00:11:35
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The first agent that I ever had a proper conversation with, who is actually no longer an agent, was Felicity True, who I actually bumped into as I stepped out of a Scooby event one time to get some fresh air.
00:11:50
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And she was then kind enough to be the first agent to come on the podcast and give us a little glimpse into what it's like to be a literary agent.
00:12:01
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Because, you know, and I'm very guilty of this.
00:12:04
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When I first started, you know, trying to figure out how to get into the industry, like what the steps were, I had a manuscript, but I had not really done any research on publishing.
00:12:11
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It's very easy to go online and to see all of these agents listed on their various agency websites.
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And they're sort of broken down into genres and age groups that they represent.
00:12:24
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But you, but you can't, you don't really see them as anything more than the agent that represents that block of things.
00:12:29
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Like I thought, at least for me, it was hard to see them in a sort of strange way as individuals, as sort of like individual human beings and, um,
00:12:39
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I think that's so important, especially having now met a lot of agents and seeing, you know, how the differences in the way that they approach writing and books and literature and the relationship between an author and an agent often, you know,
00:12:53
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transcends, I think, what a traditional formal business relationship usually is, especially now that agents are so sort of inherently editorial with their clients.
00:13:06
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If an author is pouring their emotions onto the page, there's a great
00:13:09
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vulnerability in showing that to someone and there has to be i think such trust between them and their agent to be able to show them the writing in what is probably you know one of its the most raw form that anyone's going to see it in because the agent for the most part will be one of the first people to to see any writing whether whether that person this is their debut novel or if it's their like fifth or sixth book
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it's still going to be such, you know, it's still going to be a very vulnerable thing to show them that, that, that document.
00:13:39
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And, and speaking to some authors, you know, it, they, the imposter syndrome, which is very common amongst authors often doesn't go away.
00:13:48
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It doesn't matter how many books you put out into the world.
00:13:52
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Like sometimes you can be as anxious about your, your second book as you can about your 20th book.
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But, um,
00:14:01
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But further to, getting back into agents, further to this, from a mechanical point of view, I always, always, always ask every agent how they tackle submissions.
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Because although for the most part, the agencies work, I mean, there are exceptions here, but there is a sort of standardized submission package.
00:14:24
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And that will usually be the first three chapters or 10,000 words, a synopsis and a cover letter.
00:14:29
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The way that some agents approach that to other agents can vary so wildly.
00:14:36
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As a quick example, there are agents who will look for a strong cover letter and then go directly to the synopsis before they go back into the manuscript.
00:14:44
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There are some agents who will skim or even skip the cover letter and go straight to the manuscript.
00:14:49
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Others will almost never consult the synopsis.
00:14:53
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In fact, at the Bent agency, they don't even ask for a synopsis in the submission package.
00:14:58
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So you can see, you know, just based off that alone, that the agents on an individual level are going to be looking for different things.
00:15:07
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They're going to be approaching whether they sign a submission of different things.
00:15:11
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Of course, if the writing grabs them, that will always be the most important part.
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The manuscript will always be the most important part of a submission and almost every agent will.
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will read the manuscript regardless of the, you know, the quality of the cover letter or the synopsis.
00:15:26
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But if you want to give yourself the best possible chances of piquing an agent's interest, you need to do your research on them.
00:15:34
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And, you know,
00:15:35
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I imagine every agent receives their fair share of generic sort of carpet bombed emails, manuscripts for genres or ages that they don't represent.
00:15:45
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Or I think the one that's actually much more overlooked is manuscripts that would directly compete with one of their other authors.
00:15:54
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Because an agent can't, they can't be representing two authors who are writing novels that would compete with each other for the same space, you know, on a bookshelf or something like that.
00:16:06
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Because they have to support their authors and it wouldn't be supportive if they were essentially pitting their authors against each other.
00:16:15
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When it comes to advice and the sort of top pieces of advice that agents give on the podcast, I mean, there's some reiteration of the things that the authors have talked about.
00:16:28
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There's, you know, finding your tribe, persevering.
00:16:30
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That often comes up.
00:16:33
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But there's one big one that a lot of agents will talk about.
00:16:38
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And this is a far more, I would say, business topic.
00:16:44
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sort of orientated look at how, you know, advice for authors, and that is to read your genre.
00:16:51
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So agents will often talk about this because when they read your submission, they
00:16:58
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they will probably already be thinking about how to pitch it to a publisher you know where would it sit in the bookshop what books would be next to it what section would it would it line if you're and if you're hoping to be picked up by a big publisher you
00:17:13
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You really need to be aware of what the popular styles and trends are within your genre and your age group, because you need to be pitching your book correctly.
00:17:23
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Like, it's so important that your book is pitched in a sort of...
00:17:30
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it's so important that your book is pitched in a sort of snappy coherent way so that because publishers have to look over so many books all the time so they need to know exactly what it is you're pitching to them before they kind of get into it and they publishers know better than anyone what is selling well and what isn't and they will factor that 100% into their decision to pick up your novel and
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And obviously agents will be there pitching to publishers.
00:18:00
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So they will need to factor that into account as well.
00:18:03
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Well, they know, they'll be finding out what sells well, what the publishers are looking for, because the publishers know that.
00:18:08
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So reading around your genre, knowing what is big, what's popular, what's selling is only ever going to help
Challenges in Book Acquisition
00:18:16
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you.
00:18:16
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And I 100% would advise it.
00:18:19
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And that brings us, I think, quite nicely onto editors.
00:18:22
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So these are the people who the agents are submitting to.
00:18:25
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And similarly to agents, they are often seen as gatekeepers.
00:18:30
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But that's not really at all the case.
00:18:34
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You know, having spoken to seven editors on the podcast and a handful more outside of the podcast, the
00:18:42
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they will, in many ways, they actually have more sort of criteria weighing them down than agents do when it comes to making decisions.
00:18:50
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Because whilst the agent is bound by their own list and the agency, the editors are bound by the entirety of the publisher.
00:18:59
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So the bigger the publisher, the more sort of restrictions and red tape they need to sort of skirt around.
00:19:04
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And most big publishers will choose novels through committee.
00:19:09
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So, for example, an agent pitches a book to an editor and then let's say the editor loves that pitch and they think it's a great book.
00:19:16
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Now they have to create their own pitch to present to the team at the publisher, which will include all sorts of different divisions, including production, marketing is a very big one in terms of these committee decisions.
00:19:31
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And the editor at that point has to convince all of them that this book is going to be a success.
00:19:36
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And, you know, it's heartbreaking, really, is that sometimes a book will be rejected because of something like there's like a clash with marketing or there could be something as simple as just a scheduling issue, you know, that they might, that publisher might already have.
Perseverance and Enjoyment in Writing
00:19:53
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a couple of books in that same genre coming out over the next few years and they just don't really have the window to release that and and it's not because the book is bad it's not because um they don't like the author or anything like that it's it's just a a timing issue and and that that really is sad but on the bright side sometimes these books you know sometimes books are out on submission and then they only get picked up 10 years later so you never know
00:20:18
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you never say never but like again it goes back to that earlier point i made so much of this industry is just time place you know right book right person and it's it you can't really get around it and i think um before i go on forever
00:20:35
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I think we should head towards my conclusions at this point and my final thoughts on everything that I've learned about writing and publishing through this podcast in so much as a 30 minute episode can contain.
00:20:52
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And overall, I think something to take away from writing as a whole and this kind of, I think, goes for no matter what stage you're at, writing is a marathon and not a sprint.
00:21:05
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This is an industry where it takes years to become an overnight success.
00:21:10
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Whether you choose to focus on redrafting one book for years or writing as many books as you can in that same time, it's a labor of love and you just kind of have to keep going.
00:21:22
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So much of signing with an agent and even more so a publisher is the right book at the right time.
00:21:28
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A rejection, no matter how far up the chain, doesn't mean that your writing is bad or the story doesn't work.
00:21:36
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Agents are receiving hundreds of manuscripts every week.
00:21:39
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It's an incredibly competitive industry.
00:21:42
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They can't accept every manuscript.
00:21:45
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And this is the same for publishers.
00:21:47
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But these rejections, for the most part, will simply be because it's not a good fit or there's a clash with something that's already on the list or on the schedule.
00:21:58
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if you love writing and you are serious about it then you have to persevere um brandon sanderson who has multiple international best-selling books one of the most prolific fantasy authors currently writing wrote 12 novels before he was published and he recently became the most backed person on kickstarter of all time for a new set of books that he was releasing so you know
00:22:25
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As I say, that's more than one year to become an overnight success.
00:22:29
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You know, he, he, 12 novels and his novels are not short.
00:22:34
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So you really do, you really do just have to keep going at this.
00:22:37
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And, and if you're, you know, if you keep at it, it's like any craft or skill as well.
00:22:41
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The more you write, the more you practice, the better you'll get.
00:22:44
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You have to hang in there.
00:22:46
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And eventually you will, you know, if you persevere, you will break through and you will get there.
00:22:52
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But the most important thing I think is hang in there and remember why you started writing in the first place, because it was fun, because you love it, because you love reading, because you love stories.
00:23:02
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You can write however you want, as much or as little as you want for whatever reason.
00:23:07
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The only rule that I think you should really make sure you are following is that you enjoy it.
00:23:14
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You must enjoy
Desert Island Book Choice
00:23:15
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your writing because otherwise it's going to be a very long and painful road for you.
00:23:22
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Okay, to stop me talking forever, I think we need to bring it on to the Desert Island question now, which many people have asked me in the sort of post-interview chats that I have.
00:23:31
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And I'll usually give a completely different answer.
00:23:34
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But it's interesting, funnily having this question directed on myself.
00:23:40
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Yeah.
00:23:42
Speaker
So as always, the question is, if I was stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book would I take?
00:23:49
Speaker
And I'm suddenly slightly racked with sympathy and a tiny bit of guilt because this really is a mean question, isn't it?
00:23:56
Speaker
Especially for, I get why the agents and editors really struggle over this because they live and breathe all these different books, this huge range of things that they're looking to really feel across the different genres and things.
00:24:07
Speaker
But
00:24:08
Speaker
But of course, I've thought about this a lot over the course of, you know, two years or whatever it's been since I've started this podcast.
00:24:16
Speaker
I've had lots of time to ponder this.
00:24:20
Speaker
And although I'm sure if I was asked perhaps in a week's time, I might try and change my answer.
00:24:26
Speaker
I'll have to stick to one here.
00:24:28
Speaker
Um, I would have to take something funny, something that makes me smile.
00:24:33
Speaker
Um, but, but at the same time, something that I can really connect with something I can relate to, to keep me honest and, uh, human, I guess.
00:24:43
Speaker
So originally I thought maybe one of my father's favorite books, which is The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which I do absolutely adore.
00:24:56
Speaker
But I think in the end it would be a narrow second to Terry Pratchett's Small Gods.
00:25:04
Speaker
A book that somehow manages to blend ridiculous, absurd nonsense with these very deeply relatable ideas of what it means to be yourself and to exist in a world where a world kind of full of other people trying to impose their own ideas upon you.
00:25:30
Speaker
I've always adored Terry Pratchett and the way he sort of blends philosophy and absurdity.
00:25:39
Speaker
It never fails to amaze me and sort of touch me in a way that few authors, I think, can.
00:25:47
Speaker
So that's it.
00:25:49
Speaker
Thank you so much for tuning in, even without a guest and putting up with me for however long this has been.
00:25:56
Speaker
I
Episode Conclusion and Engagement
00:25:57
Speaker
started this podcast because I was confused about everything when I first tried to get my foot into publishing.
00:26:03
Speaker
And I hope that throughout 100 episodes, it's been a useful tool for many aspiring authors and publishing hopefuls and anyone interested in books and the people involved in
00:26:17
Speaker
in their creation.
00:26:19
Speaker
I never really ask this, although the internet tells me I should all the time, always.
00:26:23
Speaker
But please do, if you are enjoying the podcast, if you do think it's good, please do like, follow, subscribe, share, whatever the button is on your chosen platform.
00:26:35
Speaker
I'd love for the show to one day be self-sustaining.
00:26:38
Speaker
So I am hoping to at some point
00:26:40
Speaker
achieve that goal and as always you can find the podcast on on facebook you can find us on on twitter at right and wrong uk or on instagram and tiktok at right and wrong podcast thanks to everyone for listening it's been such a pleasure doing this and i'm looking forward to sharing a whole host of new bookish types with you in the new year
00:27:01
Speaker
Thanks for hanging around to the end.
00:27:02
Speaker
Now, let me tell you about Write Mentors Hub.
00:27:05
Speaker
A subscription to Write Mentors Hub gives you access to an online community where children's writers at any stage of their writing and publishing journeys can interact, share advice, offer support, develop craft, and advance their careers.
00:27:15
Speaker
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00:27:23
Speaker
Every day is a writing day for hub members with an ever-growing range of initiatives like critique groups, workshops, pitching events, writing sprints, Q&As, and many, many more.
00:27:31
Speaker
The hub is constantly expanding, so go and check out the WriteMentor website for the full and up-to-date list of member-only benefits.
00:27:38
Speaker
You can get your first month completely free if you enter the coupon code RIGHTANDWRONG at the online checkout.
00:27:43
Speaker
That's W-R-I-T-E, the and symbol, W-R-O-N-G, at checkout for your first month free.
00:27:50
Speaker
So go join the Hub, Write Mentor's supportive community of storytellers, because writing can be lonely, but it doesn't need to be.