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Who's got the monkey with David Snyder
567 Plays2 years ago
This week we talked with Brafton's Chief Services Officer, David Snyder, about the legendary management article, Who's Got the Monkey, by William Onken. The piece talks about how managers should approach delegating tasks and setting boundaries at work to avoid burnout and empower their their teams to solve problems and work more autonomously.
We taked with Dave about the lessons he's taken away from that article and how he's adapted it to his current role as well as his own experience transitioning into management roles at Brafton.
Read the article at Harvard Business Review: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey
Subscribe to the Content People newsletter at https://meredithfarley.substack.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to the Content People Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hey, everyone, and welcome to Content People, a podcast where we talk to creatives and leaders to uncover actionable advice for listeners. I'm the show's creator and host, Meredith Farley. I'm here, as always, with our producer, Ian. Hey, Ian. Hey, Meredith. Today's episode is a conversation with you and Dave Snyder, Brafton's own chief services officer and someone who I've worked pretty closely with since I started at Brafton.
00:00:36
Speaker
Yeah, back when this was recorded, I was still with Brafton and I was Dave's manager, but happily I can now just call him my friend.
Discussion on 'Who's Got the Monkey?' Article
00:00:43
Speaker
If you're a manager who has ever wondered why am I working late nights and weekends while everyone else is off, this episode is for you.
00:00:51
Speaker
In the combo, we talk about the classic management article, Who's Got the Monkey? by William Onkin. I don't know if I'm saying that right. It's O-N-C-K-E-N. Dave and I are both longtime fans of this article's advice, and we are constantly sending the link around. I've definitely referred to it as an absolute banger of a management article, and I stand by that.
00:01:12
Speaker
The gist of it is don't let your subordinates' problems immediately become your problems. And if you're going to help them with a challenge, you need to set clear boundaries and expectations for the ways in which you will support them in their problem solving. And it has great monkey imagery.
00:01:29
Speaker
There are elements of the language that are a little old school. And by that, I just mean formal. For instance, it just inspired me to use that word subordinate, which kind of feels like borderline offensive today. It was first published in 1974. But the principles, I believe, are still very applicable today.
00:01:47
Speaker
And I think it also stands in really helpful contrast to some of the more nurturing coaching style management combos and ideas that we've talked about on the show so far. I believe it is imperative to support your teams. But your teams also need to support you and to get things done. This article can be a helpful and empowering reminder that you're the boss, which as funny as it may sound, I know sometimes can be really necessary and helpful to managers.
00:02:14
Speaker
This is definitely a bit more of a casual episode. I hope you might still enjoy it and get something out of it. Either way, if you manage or hope to manage a team, definitely check out the article. We'll throw a link to who's got the monkey in the show notes. And if you haven't already, give my newsletter, also call content people a subscribe, send start in February. A link will be in the show notes. Dave, thank you so much for doing this.
Dave Snyder's Career Journey at Brafton
00:02:44
Speaker
Hi Dave, welcome to content people. Thank you for having me. So I will say for our listeners, whomever they may be, that Dave is, well, Dave, I'll let you introduce yourself, but I'll say that we have worked together for 10 years and I'm super excited to get to have a nice conversation with you about some of the things that we talk about all the time and also just
00:03:13
Speaker
10, well, an hour of slightly less structured theoretical conversation than we usually have the time to have. So thanks for doing this. And so you are our VP of services at Brafton. Do you want to kind of express what you do and a little bit of your history at Brafton so far?
00:03:30
Speaker
So I am the VP of Services. I started a little over 10 years ago as a writer with Brafton, hired by you, actually. I eventually, after being a writer for about three years, I believe it was, I had moved up to, I believe my title at the time was head writer. That was when we introduced, when you introduced a new team at Brafton, the project management team,
00:03:55
Speaker
While I was intrigued by the notion, I applied to be part of that team. I was accepted as one of the inaugural members. Eventually, I became the manager of that team. And then eventually, that team grew into the point where it needs to be split into multiple teams. I eventually assumed my current role of VP of services, where I oversee all of our project management department, which is comprised of three teams, and then also our consulting department, which is also now comprised of effectively three teams, general consulting, PPC,
00:04:25
Speaker
and now email marketing. The rule of three is strong with your structures.
Hiring and Career Progression at Brafton
00:04:32
Speaker
Does seem to be. I didn't remember that I hired you. Yeah. Do you remember your interview?
00:04:40
Speaker
I'm sure you do. People remember they remember their interviews. Well, I was I was interviewed by someone else whose name does actually escape me. But as I'm sure you remember, when we when Braxton was first starting or when I was first starting with Brapton, you didn't start as a salaried employee right away. You started I was essentially a freelancer. So I'd been doing some effectively freelance work for some time and then and then eventually was made an offer for a full time salary position. You were the one who
00:05:07
Speaker
made that that that offer to me. So I do remember, it was a brief conversation, but I do remember that, you know, formally, I think of you as one who officially hired me into a full time role at Brapton. I would formally like to say I am desperate for you to come on as a full time writer. And was probably my internal script there. And it's worked out pretty well. Yeah, what year with so that was 2012. Correct. Well,
00:05:35
Speaker
that I also too started in that freelance capacity and then I think same thing a few months in, had a full-time writing role in the office. It's always, I know we've talked about it, but it's funny because we've all like, there's two draft aversaries that could come up.
00:05:53
Speaker
everyone's always giving me like, hey, happy Brafftiversary on the date that I don't think is my annual date. Well, all right, cool. So yeah, you've had quite a wild ride at Brafftain. And as you said, we both started as writers, which I feel like I always appreciate about, I think it's really helpful at Brafftain to have
00:06:18
Speaker
the experience of or in any company really to know exactly what it's like to do the roles that you're managing or overseeing or working with and the kind of empathy and insight that it gives you is really valuable. And I also love that about your origin story from copywriter to VP of services in 10 years.
00:06:38
Speaker
And I'm sure you've got some really good advice for a lot of folks who are at different points in that career journey or trajectory and agency or creative environment. So I'm really excited to get to talk to you about some of those pieces. But one way, well, so let's see, I'm going to pull up that you and I kind of have a slightly, we have a few things that we'd like to hit on.
Relevance of 'Who's Got the Monkey?' Today
00:07:03
Speaker
One is that
00:07:06
Speaker
The article who's got the monkey is something that you and I talk about a lot. It is a seminal classic management article about essentially, I think, mindset and delegation. And I have found it, I know, to be one of the most important
00:07:26
Speaker
management article slash concepts that I think I've come across or engaged with in the last five or so years. And I know you and I have talked on it quite a lot. And I want us to dig into it because I feel like it speaks to
00:07:41
Speaker
some really key elements of being successful managing in an agency environment. So I'm excited for us to dig in there. And then also talk about how we apply some of those principles for new managers, what some basic takeaways might be, when some of the concepts in that piece don't work, and then also
00:08:04
Speaker
you know, the article and so many bits of management advice talk a lot about managing down. I feel like you and I have talked a lot about how we found success and found that for both our staff and ourselves, how we manage up is really imperative toward how we, you know, how we get things done and how we progress. So I'm excited to kind of pick your brain about that a little bit and then kind of get some of your advice out.
00:08:30
Speaker
or folks that are just starting out or in management roles looking to move up into VP level positions and kind of advice that you wish you could give your younger self. So I'm really excited to touch on all those things with you.
00:08:42
Speaker
But first, all right, so who's got the monkey? We're all linked to this in the show notes. This is an article that it's in Harvard Business Review. We have talked on this. Dave and I have talked on this at length because we both love it. I've given it out to so many new managers. We talked about in the Broughton article book club. Dave, I feel like this is a link that you probably send around to some of the managers on your team sometimes as well. Is that right?
00:09:09
Speaker
I've definitely, I've definitely shared it and definitely made references to it on numerous occasions. Okay. All right. So I recommend anyone who has not heard of this article gives it a read ASAP. I find it to be incredibly calming and clarifying advice around delegation and
00:09:28
Speaker
creating boundaries around ownerships of problems. I also think there are some issues with this article. It is from, I think it's from the early 90s. Let me see. 1999 was when it was first published. Oh, what were you going to say? Maybe you've got... I think it's actually originally published in the 70s and that was reissued as part of a Harvard Business Review compilation in the 90s.
00:09:50
Speaker
You are right. So I'm reading the editor's note now. It says, originally published in November, December, 1974 issue of HBR has been one of the publications to best selling reprints ever. So it's been around. I do think there are elements of it that feel dated. You know, it's crazy. This article is almost 50 years old. It's 48 years old. And there are some pieces as I read it now, I think,
00:10:16
Speaker
That doesn't work in today's environment. If you said that to a member of your team, they might quit within the next week on you. I'm curious to roll through those things first. I'd be curious for your summary of what you think the article is aiming to convey its salient points and why it feels valuable.
Managing Boundaries and Avoiding Burnout
00:10:41
Speaker
So I think the article is ultimately, as you said, it's around, you know, delegation more than anything else. So the metaphor that the writer uses throughout the piece, I believe the writer's William Umkin Jr. and Donald Woss. I might be mispronouncing those. But the metaphor is that problems are monkeys and the
00:11:05
Speaker
one of the pitfalls that managers can fall into is taking on monkeys' problems from their subordinates to such a degree that they are not able to adequately resolve those problems. And what's more, while those problems are with the manager, while the monkeys are with the manager, the staff members are not working on those problems and perhaps are not working on anything whatsoever. And so ultimately, by taking so many monkeys on,
00:11:28
Speaker
The workplace is inefficient. The manager is overworked and unproductive. Nothing gets done. And the management advice that is ultimately being given throughout the essay is around how important it is for the manager to make sure that they do not take on too many of these monkeys, but rather ensure that
00:11:47
Speaker
staff members monkeys stay with them and they are able to keep their monkeys fed and healthy and manage, leaving the manager with more time to work on other aspects of the business, working on system-wide issues, working on supervision as a more general concept, which is just not possible when all their time is consumed by trying to maintain dozens upon dozens of monkeys that they've allowed to climb onto their own backs.
00:12:14
Speaker
And so that's the question of who's got the monkey. If the manager has too many monkeys, then the office environment is going to suffer. It's important to ensure that the number of monkeys on a manager's back remains reasonable.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And so as you said, I think one key point here, there's this visual throughout the article that monkeys are problems. And I love that visual because whenever I read this article, I picture people walking around through the halls of maybe a 1970-something workplace with actual monkeys on their backs. And there's this one bit that I'm going to read. It's just a few sentences.
00:12:57
Speaker
The paragraph is, let us imagine that a manager is walking down the hall and that he notices one of his subordinates Jones coming his way. When the two meet, Jones greets the manager with,
00:13:08
Speaker
Good morning. By the way, we've got a problem. You see, as Jones continues, the manager recognizes in this problem the two characteristics common to all problems his subordinates gratuitously bring to his attention. Namely, the manager knows A, enough to get involved, but B, not enough to make the on-the-spot decision expected of him.
00:13:29
Speaker
Eventually, the manager says, so glad you brought this up. I'm in a rush right now. Let me think about it and I'll let you know. Then he and Jones part company. So then, you know, the article goes on to talk about there was a mistake made here, which is that the monkey transferred from
00:13:49
Speaker
fictional Jones is back to fictional managers back. And the next steps and the thinking on this problem are now solely with the manager. And throughout the piece, the advice is essentially that if someone on your team has a problem,
00:14:06
Speaker
what you need to do is to keep them present and engaged with and maintaining official ownership of the problem. So I won't continue to read on, but I think that what the article would suggest and manager actually does if someone comes up and is like, Hey guys,
00:14:25
Speaker
woman, boss, whatever. I've got a problem. Manager should say, OK, great. Thank you. I'd like to discuss this so I understand it and can advise. Please book time on my calendar. I'll ask you to brief me on it. And I'll support you in thinking through action points. Done. And I think I love this because I think those tiny habits are so impactful in, number one, helping your teams
00:14:55
Speaker
embody and own an ownership mindset around their own challenges and problems. I think that by removing, you know, keeping things off of your list as vague challenges that you need to think about, book time to talk about, create ideas around, and like own the solutioning on,
00:15:20
Speaker
Keeping those things off of your to-do list and compartmentalized with the folks who will ultimately be responsible for actioning and solving those problems is wildly freeing to your calendar and your headspace. You're compartmentalizing the problems and you're not losing track of them. They're not falling onto some
00:15:41
Speaker
They're not falling onto a to-do list that is never gonna get completed. Someone else knows that they own it and they're gonna, you're gonna be in control of, okay, let's meet again on this in two days, let's meet again on this next week, et cetera. So it keeps things from falling by the wayside.
00:16:00
Speaker
Those are the main things that I take away from it and I find really freeing and also I want to get down go down a little further and talk about the way that article Supports the reader by giving some specific language, but I'm curious you might have different takeaways or what's like How does this article kind of like empower or help you?
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with anything you said. And I was thinking in preparation for this conversation, what about this article really spoke to me to speak to me. And I think that what it ultimately comes down to is, well, for one thing, I think that this is the sort of, this is a problem that I was having when I first, especially first started getting into management. I think it's a common problem is taking on too many monkeys. And so it really resonated with me because I'm really related to it on that footing.
00:16:50
Speaker
I think that in line with that, but also beyond it, the management problems and advice that I find myself most drawn to and the discussions I most enjoy taking part of surround those aspects of management where what seems like good management behavior, what seems like admirable management
00:17:09
Speaker
actually causes problems. And those are the sorts of pitfalls that especially new managers, I think, are likely fall into. Because on the surface, when you describe to that anecdote with the manager walking down the hall and coming across Jones, the manager's response, I think to most people, it makes sense. And it seems reasonable. And I think especially someone who is new to management would want to, as a good manager, they want to be supportive and helpful. That sounds like a supportive, helpful approach.
00:17:36
Speaker
And so it seems like the way to handle the situation, and it's only upon further reflection and looking at the broader perspective, looking at the implications and consequences of this sort of approach at scale, they realize why it can be so damaging and why it can be so untenable for a healthy organization. So I really appreciate, and I'm drawn to those sorts of aspects of management where the correct approach is, in some ways, to someone who's not as well-versed in management, is sort of counterintuitive.
00:18:06
Speaker
kind of almost meaner or you have to be a little bit more you know less you have to seem less supportive but ultimately that is the more supportive approach for the broader team and the broader health of the the organization and the environment. I think that when I first started a game management I very much had the same mindset of like let me help I'll help you I'll help here I'll help there I'll try to take these things on
00:18:29
Speaker
And it's just not tenable, and it causes all these other further down the line problems that you don't see at that time. And I think that you just need to, through hearing this sort of advice and through being a manager, you start to realize how, in some cases, you need to take a firmer line or you need to draw barriers. And that actually is for everyone's benefit, not just your own. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that.
00:18:56
Speaker
And I have lots to say about what you just said, but I also feel like we should express to you that a little further down in the article. It kind of paints a picture of the manager who doesn't have the good boundaries you're talking about, who is maybe taking the
00:19:11
Speaker
overly amenable, creamy, people pleasing approach to things. And the example is that it is a Sunday and this manager goes into the office because he or she has so many monkeys to sort through. They need a quiet time without folks around them to get their teams work done essentially.
00:19:36
Speaker
And they look out the window, which is serendipitously right across from the golf course, where all of the direct reports are having a nice Sunday golfing. And then on Monday, one of the direct reports comes in, knocks on the door and is like, hey, how are we doing with that problem of mine that you said you'd work on? And I bet there are tons of people who could read this and be like, oh, I have been there. Yeah, where I suddenly feel like,
00:20:03
Speaker
I am now the subordinate of the people who report into me and they're waiting on me to take next steps with these vague problems that I have inadvertently through subtle elements of mishandling made wholly my own.
00:20:19
Speaker
Well, one other I think that's exactly right. I think it's a very evocative metaphor. And just there's one other element of that that also really stood out to me again when I was rereading this article preparation is that the people on the golf course, the direct reports are talking about how the manager can't make a decision and is holding everything up. And if only they would just just just move things along and everyone would be able to get their jobs done. Meanwhile, the manager is, like you said,
00:20:43
Speaker
boarded up in their office trying to handle the feeding of 60 monkeys and still struggling to try to get everything under control. Yeah. Yeah, I love that the article gets that in there because I feel like no manager should ever be subject to having to hear what everyone who reports to them complains about when they watch on a Sunday. Psychological impact of that is just too big.
00:21:07
Speaker
But yeah, I totally, totally agree with so much of what you said. And I also think to your point that when new managers come into the job, there is often a desire to please and support and do well by and they want to
00:21:25
Speaker
Allow situations and dynamics that let their reports feel like oh, thank God for so and so because they fixed this for me Etc. But really over time, I think especially if you've got a lot of things to manage and a lot of things to get done I think that healthiest approach which this article is
00:21:46
Speaker
I think it could go further, but it espouses boundaries for sure, an incredibly clear and precise delineation and assignment of ownership of problems. And I think we should talk a little bit about some of the language it gives around that.
00:22:01
Speaker
I think that for me, what I take away is that good management is about good, clear, established boundaries. Now, I think that what the article doesn't go into sufficiently is that as a manager, you also have discretion about when you are going to reach your own boundaries and decide for whatever reason that actually you're going to own something that you
Calibrating Management Tactics
00:22:27
Speaker
would prefer the team to own for reasons around
00:22:30
Speaker
for myriad reasons around the context of the problem, which I think we can talk on in a little bit. But I want to pull up and just chat through a little bit around
00:22:41
Speaker
Okay, so this is like very 1970s language but in the story at this point the manager's so fed up with his Sunday working while his team golfed and asked him how things are coming that he comes up with basically really good healthy boundaries and he meets with one of the subordinates on a Monday or Tuesday morning and the article reads
00:23:08
Speaker
When the subordinate with the monkey on his or her back and the manager meet at the appointed hour the next day, the manager explains the ground rules in words to this effect.
00:23:18
Speaker
At no time when I'm helping you with this or any other problem will your problem become my problem. The instant your problem becomes mine, you no longer have a problem. I cannot help a person who hasn't got a problem. When this meeting is over, the problem will leave this office exactly the way it came in on your back. You may ask my help at any appointed time and we will make a joint determination of what the next move will be and which of us will make it.
00:23:44
Speaker
In those rare instances where the next move turns out to be mine, you and I will determine it together. I will not make any move alone. The manager follows the same line of thought with each subordinate until about 11 a.m. when he realizes he doesn't have to close his office door, his monkeys are gone, they will return, but by appointment only, his calendar will assure this.
00:24:05
Speaker
One, I have to say, I do love this, but two, and maybe this was appropriate in 74, I just could convey this to someone at this point, but I could never imagine using this language to say this. I feel like you'd get a blank stare and someone would be like, what the hell is wrong with me?
00:24:26
Speaker
But I do like that the article gives helpful language because I feel like especially for newer managers so often, finding your management style is actually just finding the language that you use to articulate what feels to be right to you and the ground rules and approach that you essentially want to establish. So I would never recommend anyone use that script, but I do think finding a modern, more
00:24:52
Speaker
collaborative and less condescending way. To say that is really helpful when trying to kind of make this shift. I don't know, what are your thoughts on that part?
00:25:04
Speaker
Yeah, no, I completely agree. I mean, I think the sentiment is admirable. And very much in line with what I was saying before, it sounds harsh. It sounds, and it is harsh, and again, the language is overly harsh. But even the concept sounds harsh. The concept of saying, this problem is your problem. It's not going to become my problem. That seems like a very
00:25:23
Speaker
It seems like a very confrontational and adversarial thing for a manager to say to us about it. But the reality is this is how any workplace needs to function. The manager has their own problems, their own monkeys that are coming from other directions and from up above. They can't take on every problem. Their job is to manage, not to just do everyone else's jobs for them. And that's what happens when the monkeys keep landing on their back. So the notion of drawing that line and being very firm in that line
00:25:52
Speaker
I think is spot on. But to your point, I think both the literal language and also I think some of the sentiments behind it are rather extreme. And I definitely would think that anyone who received that sort of a conversation from their manager would feel unsupported and
00:26:09
Speaker
I think reasonably so. There's ways of essentially conveying the same notion of, generally speaking, your problems will remain your problems. I will be there to help guide you and help you determine your course of action, but it will remain your course of action. I think that is the correct sentiment. I think that, though, one of the things I know we'll talk a little bit later on around some of the maybe
00:26:30
Speaker
quibbles we might have with some of the article, despite how much we like it. For me, one of the things that does stand out, and I think this is common in many of these sorts of managerial guides and essays and such, is it does treat every monkey as the same and as the solution for addressing these monkeys as the same across the board. And I think there's a lot of different species of monkeys out there. And I do think that there will be different approaches warranted for different situations. This approach, this hard line barrier approach
00:26:59
Speaker
might be correct 99% of the time, but I would have to imagine that even in this 1974 workplace, there would be some situations where it does make more sense for the manager to say, I'll take that monkey, that specific monkey, I will take that one because for whatever reasons I have, but the 99% of other monkeys will remain with my staff. But the essay doesn't open the door to that possibility. Yeah.
00:27:24
Speaker
I think what the essay presupposes is that the staff members have the ability to effectively and efficiently actually resolve these issues. And there are certainly moments as a manager where you might come across a problem and you think, I have the problem that I have a team member who can't solve their own problems. I feel like in that instance, you know, sometimes you're like, well, this person,
00:27:49
Speaker
probably through a fault of my own. Like I put this person in a roller position that is not best serving them or us. So like, how do I resolve this? I think very often it's actually
00:28:02
Speaker
this person needs some support, guidance and training about how to do this in the future. And then I think some of these boundaries and principles still apply. For example, I can think of newer managers that I've worked with where I would still, you know, say, say we had a,
00:28:20
Speaker
a new manager of a team. And there are, one, this person I feel is the right fit for the job, but I know they're going to need lots of mentorship and training over the next year to really get there. So a few basic things are, number one, do we have a rolling agenda doc that they own?
00:28:38
Speaker
that's true of me for everybody. I think true of you for everyone too, but I feel especially important in this moment because as problems come up throughout the day via email and meetings, we use Gchat, but Slack, whatever.
00:28:51
Speaker
It's helpful for you as the manager to say blank. Can you please add this to our agenda for tomorrow? And then number two is really frequent like daily meetings with those folks so that you can with them in real time work through the challenges sometimes in front of them. You know, I've done stuff like
00:29:10
Speaker
writing emails, policy docs, actually doing whatever spreadsheet work needs to get done in front of people. And sometimes they might be like, can I just get off this call if you're just going to do it? I'm like, no, no, no. If you can't do it, that's okay, but you got to watch me do it and ask questions so that next time you can do it in front of me with my support. And then in six months from now, you do this and we never talk about it again.
00:29:33
Speaker
So I do think that the by appointment only and the compartmentalization and the official ownership of problems can all still be helpful, even when you're doing so much mentorship training, et cetera. And I feel like you take similar approaches. I don't know what's your, what are your thoughts on that? I feel like you do kind of the same thing.
00:29:55
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think I know where I learned those techniques from. I've been the person, I'm sure, in some of the situations where working through, you showing me how to do some of these things, and then I do take it to heart and try to then own that process going forward in the future so that we don't have to do it together in the future. And then I've taken that same approach with
00:30:16
Speaker
people who are important to me, managers and otherwise. I very much agree with that. I've appreciated the experience myself over the years. I do definitely think that, like you're saying, a lot of these situations, it's important to recognize that there is a two-fold problem, short-term, long-term. The short-term problem is whatever the actual
00:30:36
Speaker
need is, the client is upset, the policy needs to be written, the communication needs to be rolled out, whatever the case may be. But then there's also the problem that this person who ideally owns that problem doesn't know how to solve that problem. And so the solution, the way it's presented in this article,
00:30:57
Speaker
I think it does open the door to having a conversation around how we will work through it together, but they make such a point, the essay writer makes such a point of saying, you know, this will still be your, you know, you will be the one doing it. I will just weigh in on it when I think that you're entirely correct. There are those times it makes sense for the manager to do it themselves, but to solve the, in order to solve the short-term problem, but they're also solving the long-term problem by training and teaching and now
00:31:23
Speaker
reducing the likelihood that the same sort of situation appears in the future. And I think that does actually speak to one of the key elements of this article as a whole, which is I think that in a vacuum, any given monkey that appears, it might make sense
00:31:41
Speaker
in and of itself for the manager to just take care of it by themselves. That might be the most efficient thing to be done in that moment. But it's when you look at the holistic situation, when you try to do this at scale, that it becomes completely untenable for the manager to take on all those monkeys. And so it really speaks to me in regard to the broader framework of management in that you do need to have this
00:32:04
Speaker
this broader perspective as a manager than you do have as a staff member. And the broader perspective requires that you are not overloading yourself and also that you're not leaving problems just in the wind. You need to be working to solve those problems, but also working to create a system that doesn't allow those problems to be either continually created or at the very least make sure that those problems don't continually fall onto your back out of necessity.
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking to you how I feel like this approach. And even if you're in the middle with someone that you're kind of mentoring, supporting through elements of this approach, it's twofold in that number one, it's so important to like reducing burnout because if you feel
00:32:50
Speaker
that you own every problem that could pop up across your teams. The mental weight of getting up in the morning and signing on to see like what fresh hell awaits you on email is
00:33:03
Speaker
awful, existentially terrible, not sustainable. And I think, you know, totally could lead to burnout 100%. So I think these boundaries also allow you to, one, sometimes just feel a little happier, or for me at least, to feel happier as a manager. I don't want every single thing that goes wrong to become my problem on the spot or in the future.
00:33:27
Speaker
And also I think long-term these practices are imperative to building out a stronger and more autonomous team. By doing this work, even if it's a more modified version of it where you're working with people but not doing their work for them, you are training and developing a team that in two or three years is going to be, you know,
00:33:53
Speaker
light years ahead of where they'd be if you just solved their problems for them and that I have to say I feel definitely this way with
00:34:02
Speaker
aren't you like are the creative production and service management team across the board? Generally, I'm like, man, everyone is just doing so well right now. Like, I am in a spot where I get to weigh in, advise, supervise, give input, but I don't feel like everybody, you know, I don't wake up and think, what's gonna happen?
00:34:25
Speaker
Today who owns this problem? So yeah for me it's been like freeing and incredibly imperative to my general happiness But I do think like so let's talk about the stuff that we think wouldn't work today For me, I'd say that I feel like a couple things one communication so in line with like that dated language I feel like now we've evolved so much in the last 50 years as a
00:34:53
Speaker
like professional norms have changed so much that I don't think, I can't imagine a boss saying something like that and not following it up with like, how do you feel about this? What's your input? What's your take? Like, I think it's so important now that we're always encouraging and having open, honest, transparent, two way conversations.
00:35:17
Speaker
because I also love the idea of like the cartoon version of this article where it just all goes to hell and like the manager walks out of his peaceful office one day and like 30 monkeys are hanging from the ceiling and setting things on fire essentially because like nobody
00:35:34
Speaker
Communicate effectively they couldn't get the problem solved No one's talking to the manager because they're afraid to say that they can't solve the problem without his help They misunderstand what he says because he's not checking in to like, you know confirm things have been communicated and understood It could go south really fast. And so the communication side for me I think that would not fly today as a manager you have to work harder to make sure people understand and are aligned with what you're saying and then
00:36:03
Speaker
I also think there's so many roles now. There's more of an expectation of a player coach. If you're going to be in a big management role, the expectation is that you're training and developing your folks for the most part to do what needs to be done. I feel like it would be rare for someone to be kind of just installed in a big leadership role where the team's great. They're already set. You're just supervising people with 25 years experience and making sure that everything's
00:36:32
Speaker
continuing to run well. I mean, I'm sure that happens. I just unless I don't hear about those roles that much. So those are the two things for me. What about you? What do you feel like is doesn't work for you or for this day and age?
00:36:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think very similar. I think I definitely agree the communication side of it. In this scenario, you mentioned where the manager, or the essay where the manager has all these meetings, and they deliver that line to every staff member. All of the monkeys are put back onto the staff members' backs, and the manager's office is clear of monkeys. And he has a moment of peace, it seems. But then to your point in that scenario, I see that in the cartoon version, like you were describing,
00:37:11
Speaker
manager leaves the office and sees the monkeys aren't on his back or in his office, but they're also not on the employee's back because they've all quit. And now there's just like 30 monkeys running through the office, destroying everything. I think that the reality is that certainly today, there are expectations on the employee side as to the kind of treatment you would receive from your manager and in a workplace. And as
00:37:34
Speaker
you and I and others who have been doing recruitment in the last year plus. There's a lot of demand for a lot of roles these days, and people have options available to them. And people want to work in a workplace that compensates them, of course, but also a workplace where they feel valued and they feel like the environment in general is productive and collaborative and congenial. And I think that
00:38:02
Speaker
a manager laying down the law in this sort of way, making it very clear that they're not going to provide more than a very minimal degree of assistance. That's not going to fly for a lot of people. They're going to look elsewhere is the reality. So I think as a manager, you need to make sure you're not taking on too many monkeys, but you need to make sure that your team stays intact if the team is in fact made of good quality people that you want to keep in their current roles.
00:38:28
Speaker
So I do think that the reality is just that there are certain tactics that might have been viable at that time that are just simply too harsh. Sandy's not the question whether they're effective. They're just simply too harsh for the current environment. Yeah, it's interesting. In some ways, as I read this article, I feel like the environment I pictured in is one of those
00:38:52
Speaker
50 years ago where people worked at the same company for 30 years and their hopelessness continued to do a solid job and continued to ascend through the ranks and
00:39:03
Speaker
Now, there is so much more job movement, job hopping, people, to a certain extent, like creating preferences, or not creating preferences, it's not the right word, what I'm trying to say. People like using inverted quotes here, but following their bliss a little bit more professionally and changing things up. And so,
00:39:24
Speaker
A lot of folks, I think, are looking for managers that they can learn from and who are going to help them and support them and nurture them. So by being a manager and many, many folks, not everybody, but lots of people are looking for also a bit of a mentor. I think that's complex in some ways because
00:39:41
Speaker
The historical version was a little more transactional. You didn't have to feel like your boss was giving you archetypal parental approval or nurturing and moving you along. You just had to know what they wanted you to do to think you were doing a good job and then try and do it.
00:39:57
Speaker
Now, it's more complex. And in some ways, I feel like, oh, probably to the better, we are all people. Of course, you want to be working with people that you can learn from, connect with, have a nice work relationship or friendship with. But also, work is still transactional. And every now and then, I think, maybe that was easier, but I don't know. Do you know what I mean?
00:40:20
Speaker
I do and i think and i think back to something something that you said much earlier that i think is very common among especially newer managers which is this this drive to be a people pleaser but i think that you know that that sounds you know sounds you know sounds like a negative thing being a people pleaser um and usually the connotation there is that you just like are saying whatever it takes to you know to make someone happy in the moment and for
00:40:40
Speaker
in this essay, in the case of the employees at the beginning of the essay, what makes them happy is taking the monkey off their back. But I think that the reality is that a good manager should be a people pleaser in the sense that they want their staff to be happy in their roles.
00:40:57
Speaker
your staff are not going to be doing their jobs the best their abilities if they're not happy in the roles and they're not going to stay in those roles if they're not ultimately happy. But that doesn't mean that you just do whatever they want or do their jobs for them. I think that if you have those sorts of people on your team that that is what it would take to make them happy. You don't want those people on your team long term. So the problem solves itself by virtue of not taking those monkeys on overly.
00:41:19
Speaker
the people that you want to keep on your team. And I think this is generally true for most employees in my experience. They don't want their jobs to be done for them, but they do want to feel like they have clarity about what their job is and how they are expected to go about doing it. But they still want to be the ones to do it. And so a good manager is someone who I think like you're describing is providing a degree of
00:41:41
Speaker
mentorship is taking the approach of showing them how to be successful in the future. But that doesn't mean that you were, again, doing their jobs for them. So so I think there is an element of of people pleasing, quote unquote, but understanding that it's not as it's not necessarily it's not simply a matter of just doing someone's job for them. There's a lot more that goes into keeping staff pleased. But that is something that is important as a as a manager to keep a team productive and happy and in place.
00:42:11
Speaker
Yeah, totally. It's such a calibration of not just you know The whose problem is this had when do I reach my boundaries and solve it verse when do I give it to them? But then also how are they feeling? What does that mean for you know, someone's really stressed out but they're a key person for example a problem comes up that made me in other weeks you'd be like, all right, you know
00:42:35
Speaker
I'm like, why don't you think about this, bring a plan to me on Tuesday, set some time with me, walk me through it, I'll give you any feedback. Now, as I said, I'm like, that's probably the right approach for nearly any problem. But maybe it's a moment where you're like, they need a 15 minute chat with me later to kind of like, I can tell they're frustrated about this. And I want to make sure that I hear them out.
00:42:57
Speaker
And two, I might suggest a more collaborative, let's put time together and work through it, you know, so like the constant calibration of how are they doing and feeling and knowing like you don't want to
00:43:10
Speaker
if they're struggling, not giving them the straw that breaks the camel's back insofar as how they're doing that day or that week. So there is that kind of like caretaking element of management too, which this article doesn't really touch on at all. But also as you're talking, I'm thinking something that I've found, which is like, you know, the idea of,
00:43:32
Speaker
when we are training, coaching, mentoring. You have to make sure that the folks on your team are open to and interested in that from you most of the time. Because if you hire in someone, especially into like any position, I was going to say especially management, but actually I don't know if that's true, and they are
00:43:52
Speaker
not interested at all in your thoughts, ethos approach to things, but also maybe not fully equipped to just handle the problems their own way perfectly. That's when it's really challenging because you almost are trying to convince someone to be open to your experience input and feedback.
00:44:11
Speaker
And that can create, I think, if you know someone's gonna need mentorship and support from you and isn't just gonna be a totally autonomous contributor, you have to feel out and make sure they're gonna be open to that. Otherwise, it's gonna be pretty miserable for the both of you.
00:44:27
Speaker
Yeah, no, certainly. And I think there is an element to, as you were describing to someone with that sort of mindset, I'm starting to think about people that I've managed over the years and the people who I've felt that way about, they're probably not, it probably didn't work out ultimately because I think that there is an element to this of, I guess, going back to the notion of people pleasing, there is an element where you want to make sure you're calibrating, like you said, finding the right way to manage someone. And sometimes there, I'm sure there are people who might,
00:44:56
Speaker
not be open to the sort of approaches that we're describing here, but would be still able to be productive in their roles. But I think that more often than not someone who's so closed off to a such a general and I would say benign approach that we're describing here, someone who's also probably going to come across problems that they are not either equipped to or interested in solving. And ultimately, that's just not going to be viable from a long term perspective in all in most roles, perhaps not all, but in most roles.
00:45:22
Speaker
I feel like this is kind of a good segue because I know one thing that we've talked on a bit and we wanted to talk on a little bit is managing up. I feel like you've talked a bit about managing up. Now, one, I want to acknowledge, I don't want to put you in the awkward position on a podcast being like, well, Meredith, finally, let me tell you about all this stuff I do to deal with your bullshit, which I'm sure you do.
Insights on Managing Up
00:45:44
Speaker
If you want to, I could take it, or maybe we talk on it privately.
00:45:49
Speaker
I would say for this, maybe we focus on for our own teams and I won't be speaking to you. I can be speaking in theoreticals. I think I'd love to start with you. When it comes to folks on your team, what do you wish that especially newer people knew about managing up? I'm curious about your thoughts on this for both the staff that reported to you, but also the managers and directors that you oversee.
00:46:15
Speaker
Yeah, so I think that there is a large element of, the word use before calibration comes to mind. I think that successful upward management is, and I guess also I'm thinking about the people-pleasing side of it. Again, I think that to be successful in whatever your role is, you wanna have a good relationship with your manager. Your manager more than yourself dictates the ways in which your relationship operates.
00:46:41
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that you aren't able to find ways to work within that system to your own styling and to your own strengths, I suppose. So I guess to get more specific than that, something you mentioned before, actually, I keep it moving back to earlier parts of this conversation, but you mentioned the notion of agendas. And I've definitely taken the approach that you described where everyone who reports into me, we have a shared agenda document. I will populate items onto it periodically.
00:47:10
Speaker
in preparation for whatever we meet next. But I also very much expect that they do so themselves. And I make it very clear to people that I expect them to, as time goes on, I'm thinking of a new hire or a new manager. As time goes on, I expect the majority of the items on our agenda to be items that they have added, not items that I have added. I will add certain things, but I want them to tell me what are the things we need to discuss. And I make that pretty clear to them.
00:47:36
Speaker
It's not always, you know, it's not always intuitive how to go about doing that. And I think there is a skill to knowing what things to bring to that agenda and how to frame them. And something that I was talking with recently to someone who reports into me, who is actually training another person who's entering into management, we're having just a check in sort of conversation. And it suddenly occurred to me like, I want this new manager to
00:48:01
Speaker
manage me in this regard the same way the current manager does. So I said, I told the current manager, I want you to do an agenda training with the new manager. I want you to train her to build and deliver agendas for our one-to-ones the way you do with our one-to-ones, which I thought was, you know, for whether it's, you know, getting the monkey down on my back, but onto the back of the person who reports into me, but also preparing the new person to, you know,
00:48:25
Speaker
work with me to manage me effectively in the way that I would want to be managed. The person who I directed to do this training, I hadn't given her this training. She just, over time, clearly figured out, this is the way I like the agendas to be set up. This is the sort of information I like to have available. This is what leads to the most productive conversations for both of us. And she just calibrated over time and to the point where the agendas are always, I always open them up. I'm like, perfect. This is what we need to talk about. Here's all the information I need to get started. Where do we begin?
00:48:53
Speaker
So I think that, you know, that's, I think I, I would like to think that you probably learned a bit of that, uh, for myself, cause I think that that's the approach I strive to take with, you know, with you and me with, you know, I try to make sure that our, you know, I do think I, I, you know, try to own most of the agenda items and I try to come prepared to say like, here are the things we need to talk about. Here are links to helpful materials that'll, you know,
00:49:10
Speaker
of necessary for that conversation. I think I perhaps to some extent have just kind of subconsciously even perhaps responded to what I found to be the ways that our conversations were most productive. I felt I tried to take approaches that I think that will yield those results. Consciously or subconsciously, I think that there's just certain things that you learn over time if you are actively calibrating at all times. Yeah, I think that's 100% true. And as you're talking about, I'm kind of thinking
00:49:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, one, I feel like I need to say like, you do a wonderful job with our agendas and meetings. I'm like, it's one of the many reasons I love working with you. And two, I am aware that probably over the years, the folks that I've managed in some ways have maybe, especially in earlier days, like unconsciously or on their own figured out how to work with me, which I think
00:50:03
Speaker
I want it's humbling to work with people for 10 years because you improve and get better and you think back and you're like, oh God, I wish I hadn't done that back in the day.
00:50:13
Speaker
Also, as you're talking to, I feel like for me, I'd imagine for you too, it sounds like you're in the midst of it right now. Over the years, I've gotten better at expressing and articulating to new managers how to best work with me. I remember like five or seven years ago, maybe I had a new report and they were like, so, you know, what do you, like, how should I work with you as a manager? And I think back on that common, I think I think a pretty shitty job of like,
00:50:38
Speaker
Articulating and expressing that because one no one had ever asked me that before and two I just think I didn't have I didn't yet have an answer at the ready or as fully formed a sense of my own approach and ethos and Expectations and I hope that now I'm much better at that at being like this is what I like. This is how I'm like This is what I need from you This is what I'm really interested in your feedback on because for us to figure out how we all work how we together work together
00:51:08
Speaker
And it sounds like you're in the midst of that too, where you're like, okay, well, this manager, I've been managing for a couple of years, she figured it out. And now you're like, ah, now I can articulate to this new manager exactly what I'm looking for in ways that previously maybe it wouldn't have been top of mind to do. Yeah, it's an organic process that it can now be replaced by a more direct, immediate process of just, this is what we eventually landed on and it works really well. Let's start there instead of getting there eventually.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah. Well, okay. I know we only have a couple of minutes left, but I want to ask you, so you've been at Brapton for 10 years. You started as a copywriter. You're now our VP of services and you oversee a large project management team with three divisions, our consulting team with three separate divisions. Why do you think you've done so well? What advice do you have for other folks who are working in a similar environment who might want to kind of do what you've done?
00:52:07
Speaker
I think that, you know, I was thinking about this prior to our conversation. I think the, you know, the thing that, the mistake I suppose that I feel like I was making earlier on in my career that I do believe I eventually course corrected on, one of, I shouldn't say the one of, was that I was not actively seeking out or trying to create opportunities for myself. I think I was
00:52:30
Speaker
Ultimately, in hindsight, very lucky that it was, as I described in my career arc, I was very lucky that you happened to be creating a team that when I heard about like, oh, that really sounds like something I would like to be doing. Up to that point, I was a writer and I thought of myself as a writer and full stop.
00:52:50
Speaker
But as I look back and I think about the things that I feel like have made me successful, the things I enjoy about my current role and previous roles I've had, I mean, I do still enjoy writing. I write a lot of emails and policy documents and things, so the writing is still relevant. But there's a lot of other things that go beyond that I appreciate.
00:53:07
Speaker
Workflow development, I appreciate people management and things like that. That's just I wasn't really thinking about as as areas areas for me to explore because I sort of had a narrow view of myself and my, you know, by my potential, I guess, career development. So what I so I guess I guess there's two parts. This one is, you know, this sort of, you know, I guess advice I would have given to myself that would give to, you know,
00:53:30
Speaker
younger people are starting out is to not put yourself too much in a box and really try to think expansively about what are your skills and interests? What are the sorts of things that you like doing and would like to do more of? I don't really think I was originally thinking in those terms and I just happen to have my eyes opened by an opportunity that really like
00:53:47
Speaker
with black, like really flashing lights and blaring sirens is like right in front of me and I couldn't ignore it. But I wasn't actively looking for something like that. In hindsight, probably, you know, I should have been trying to find an opportunity that, you know, spoke to those skill sets and those interests because they they are very, they're, you know, they're very much a big part of who I am, I think. And I've been fortuitous to get to that role. And then ever since then, I've been developing those skills. And I believe I have been, you know, more looking to
00:54:11
Speaker
seek it, create and or seize opportunities that have presented themselves for either new roles or new responsibilities or new roles and responsibilities. Since then, I don't think they've necessarily been so obvious to an objective observer from the outside. I
00:54:29
Speaker
I have had to be looking for them or trying to create them. And I do do that now in ways that I didn't do so early in my career. Early in my career is much more passive, I suppose. So I do think that to a certain extent, these opportunities might present themselves, but you should not assume that they will. You should be looking for those opportunities. But again, you can create those opportunities, I find. If you see a need or you see an opportunity for improvements,
00:54:56
Speaker
Is there anything stopping you from being the person to say, I would like to do this thing, not just waiting for someone to ask for a show of hands or who wants to work on this thing? And I think that sort of ethos has very much how I approach my work now. And I think it would have been beneficial to do it even earlier. It just wasn't the way I was thinking back then.
00:55:17
Speaker
Yeah, that really resonates with me as well too. I think too sometimes when folks are just like their first year or two into the workforce, sometimes it's just overwhelming to like figure out how it all works and you're more in just a like
00:55:34
Speaker
Oh, not exactly panic mode or fight or flight, but you're just kind of like, just white knuckling it through the basics. And then when, then there's a moment at some point where you get to be like, okay, but what do I want? Not just what do I need to like, prove I can manage the basic functions of for sure. And yeah, but I agree with what you're saying. And I also think, no, we got to go in a minute, but I like what you said about creating your own opportunities because
00:56:03
Speaker
I think a lot of people would appreciate a boss or a job offer coming to them and being their dream job, essentially. I think you're great at blank. Would you like to do XYZ? And I think that those happen. But often, you have to kind of carve it out for yourself or push for it, or you have to have the vision for it before anybody else does. And I think for some people, it can feel kind of uncomfortable. They're like, I don't want to
00:56:30
Speaker
I don't want to bulldoze my way into convincing people I can do XYZ, but sometimes that is what you have to do and it doesn't mean that you don't deserve it. It just means it's on you to express to people what you can do.
00:56:47
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And I think that in some of these cases, there are more immediate opportunities, like if a new role opens up or can be created. But sometimes it's more just around building up your expertise and your experience and being able to say, this is a thing I have done. And it's a feather in my cap.
00:57:04
Speaker
You know, I speak for myself. I think it's true for most people who are in management leadership positions. They remember those people who who stood up and said, like, I want to do this thing and then in fact did do it. You know, whether maybe there's not an opportunity to give to that person on a permanent basis at that moment, but.
00:57:19
Speaker
time passes, opportunities do naturally become, you know, create themselves. And then you are now the person who's top of mind when a decision has to be made about who's going to lead this new team or lead this new initiative or whatever the case may be. So sometimes the opportunities they are creating are further down in the future than you can actually see at that time. But that doesn't mean they're not going to appear. I think that's really great advice. All right. Well, Dave, thank you for doing this with me.
Closing and Upcoming Episodes
00:57:46
Speaker
Thank you very much for having me. I had fun. I appreciate it.
00:57:54
Speaker
All right, everyone. Hope you enjoyed our chat with Dave. Next week, we'll be coming to you with an interview with career development expert, Ellen Gillis. To support the show, you can rate, review, and subscribe. Those things make a huge difference. And if you like today's conversation, you'll probably like the Content People newsletter. Subscribe at the link in the show notes. And that's it, folks. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to get in touch, you can always email us at contentpeople at rafton.com.