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Episode 59 - The 1948 World Series- Satchel Paige
15 Plays5 days ago
We have another history centric episode as the Cleveland Indians defeat the Boston Braves in six games to capture their second World Championship in franchise history so far.
Great iteration of is a HOF'er as we discuss some great pitchers like Bob Feller and Warren Spahn, and also have tough debates on more borderline players.
On the current event side, we discuss what we think might be an uneventful trade deadline.
Note- this episode was recorded on 7/28/26 before the Dodgers traded for Skubal.
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Transcript
Mindset and Age - Satchel Paige's Influence
00:00:02
Speaker
In the words of Satchel Paige, age is a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter. What's
Introduction to 'Championship or Bust' 1948 Edition
00:00:10
Speaker
up, everybody? Welcome to the 1948 episode of Championship or Bust with Mack, Zach, and Josh. We have a lot, a lot, a lot of is-heel Hall Famers today and a lot of very, very interesting ones that I'm looking forward to hearing the thoughts of the guys. So I don't want to run any longer. Josh, let's get started.
00:00:28
Speaker
All right, let's get started.
1948 World Series Overview: Indians vs. Braves
00:00:30
Speaker
19-48 World Series, the Cleveland Indians against the Boston Braves. The Indians won the American League by one game, finishing the season 97-58, and the Braves won the National League by six and a half games, finishing 91-62. This was the first World Series to be televised beyond last year's limited New York Schenectady-Philadelphia-Bultiple-Washington network.
00:00:56
Speaker
That's a mouthful. yeah that That is a mouthful, but it's like one line where they were able to broadcast the game, basically. um And this was this game was announced by famed sportscasters Red Barber and Tom Hussey and ah Van Patrick.
00:01:11
Speaker
But the games played in Boston can only be seen in the Northeast. while And then when the games were played in Cleveland, they were only aired in Chicago, Pittsburgh,
Player-Manager Dynamics: Southworth and Boone
00:01:20
Speaker
Milwaukee, St. Louis, Detroit. ah So, yeah, it wasn't quite the TV that we know today. But, hey, it was, you know, on TV.
00:01:31
Speaker
Yay. This was also the Final World Series to feature team managed by a player manager. Wait, Billy Southworth? The last one? Wow. Wow.
00:01:42
Speaker
I was still playing. Bring those back. Well, we know what happens when players turn into managers. We get an Aaron Boone. i knew were going to say that.
00:01:53
Speaker
Or you get a Joe Girardi. He was pretty good. Or a Joe Torre. He was pretty good. Except Boone. I just don't like Boone. We know. None of us like Boone.
Game Highlights and Replay Technology's Impact
00:02:05
Speaker
Anyway. 1948. Game 1.
00:02:08
Speaker
he was safe.
00:02:16
Speaker
game was tied at zero and the bottom of the eighth when feller walk a leadoff batter the pinch runner phil massey came in advanced on a sack bunt and after an intentional walk feller tried to pick masss off at second and clearly got him but the empire called him safe and way back in nineteen forty eight there were no replays so he was safe Tommy Holmes then would single Massey in.
00:02:36
Speaker
And that was the only run of the game. That was is also the one of two hits that Feller gave up in the game. Sane finished the game for the Braves, pitching a shutout on four hits. And later, in 1990, upon his death, Massey said, oh, wow yeah, I was definitely out at second base.
00:02:51
Speaker
So what's the moral of the story, boys? More robo-umps and replays. I mean, ter i don't walk the leadoff batter. That too.
00:03:03
Speaker
So, game two. It also made television history when a live broadcast of the Indian Braves matchup was shown brought aboard the Baltimore-Ohio Railroad Maryland passenger train traveling between Washington, D.C. and York City. Jesus.
00:03:18
Speaker
First time a game was televised on train. Very exciting. Wow. So in this game, the Braves would get the scoring started in the bottom of the first when Bob Elliott singled in a run with two outs. In the top of the fourth, Cleveland would finally strike for the first runs of the series. After Lou Bidrow hit a leadoff double, Joe Gordon singled him in to tie the game. Gordon, who would advance the second on the throw, then scored in Larry Doby's single to put the Indians up 2-1. In the fifth, Dale Mitchell singled, moved the second on a sack bunt, and scored in Lou Bidrow's single to make it 3-1. The Indians added another insurance run in the top of the ninth, but Nell's Potter reached on an error, moved to third,
00:03:52
Speaker
on two ground outs and then scored on Bob
Indians' Path to Victory: Key Performances
00:03:54
Speaker
Kennedy's single. Bob Lemon gave up just the single run in the first while completing the game for the Indians in the 4-1 victory, tying the series 0-1. Game three, now in Cleveland, so the Indians opened up the scoring in the Bob in the third when Larry Doby hit a ground out with runners on first and second and one out.
00:04:09
Speaker
Going for a double play, the shortstop threw the ball away, trying get Dobie at first, and the runner scored unearned. The Indians would add another in a bob in the fourth when Jim Hegan singled in a run after a walk in a single. Gene Bearden threw a complete game for the Braves, allowing just five hits, striking out four, the Indians taking a 2-1 series lead.
00:04:26
Speaker
Game four saw the Indians strike first in the bottom first when Dale Murphy hit a leadoff single and scored on Lou Bedreau's double. In the third, they added to the lead on Larry Doby's solo home run. The Braves would get a run back in the top of seventh on Marv Ricketts. Solo home that's all they would get. Steve Gromkett finished the game and the win for the Indians to take a three to one series lead Game 5 saw the Braves open up scoring in the top of the first when with two singles to start the game with the Bob Elliott's three-run home run off Bob Feller. The indian Indians would get a run back in the bottom the inning when Dale Mitchell hit a solo shot of his own.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:06
Speaker
walt judnich singled in a run afterout jim hegan hit a three run shot putting the indians in front five to four in the top of the six the bras tied the game on bill salcas got these names are atrocious bill saett spoil shot at the 7th, Tommy Holmes hit a leadoff single, moved the second on a sack bunt, and scored on Earl Torgerson's RBI single. Ed Kleeman relieves Bob Feller and then gave up a walk, a two-run single to Marv Rickert.
00:05:33
Speaker
gave up his two-run single to Marvicka and another walk. Russ Christopher relieved him and gave up back-to-back RBI singles to Mike McCormick and Eddie Stanky. Satchel Paige relieved him, becoming the first black pitcher to take the mound in a World Series game.
00:05:46
Speaker
Paige gave up a sack fly to pitcher Warren Spahn, making it a six-run inning before finally getting the last two batters out. Spahn threw five and two-thirds shot innings to get the Braves an win and forced a game six.
00:05:58
Speaker
Game 6 in Boston. So the Indians strike first in the top of third when Dale Mitchell hit a leadoff double and scored on Lou Bedreau's RBI double. The Braves tied the game in about the bottom of fourth on Mike McCormick's RBI single with two men on. A walk loaded the bases with pitcher Bill Voysel grounded out to end the inning.
00:06:14
Speaker
We love pitchers grounding out to end the inning. Joe Gordon led off the top of the sixth with a solo shot to give the Indians the lead. After a one-out walk and a single, Jim Hegan's RBI ground got extended the lead three to one The Indians added another insurance run in the eighth on three straight singles from Ken Keltner, Thurman Tucker, and Eddie Robinson. In a bob in the eighth, the Braves loaded the bases with one out, and Indians brought in Gene Bourdain.
00:06:36
Speaker
Clint Canaster hit a sack flyer score run, and then Phil Massey doubled in another run, cutting the lead down to one. But Bearden got a ground out to end the inning, pitching a scoreless ninth to get the save and give the indian Indians a four three win and win the World Series in six games.
00:06:51
Speaker
who Very nice. Well done that breakdown. Yes, the names were not totally killing me. You did pretty well.
Hall of Fame Pitchers: Stats and Legacy
00:07:01
Speaker
I want to apologize, actually, because I misspoke. We were discussing the managers. Player manager Lou Bedreau was a player manager. Billy Southwood was long retired at that point. I just misspoke. Slip of the tongue. My bad.
00:07:11
Speaker
So just wanted to clear that up for anybody listening, especially my Japan listeners. Shout out to you guys. ah So um we'll get into this. He'll Hall of Famers. We'll start with the losing Boston Braves.
00:07:23
Speaker
ah Manager Billy Southworth, who I misspoke about before. But this is his fourth pennant. It is his second World Series, and it's his final appearance. So shout out to the Hall of Famer in the class of 2008. So it took him a while to get in, but good for him. Well-deserved.
00:07:37
Speaker
I think if you make four pennants as a manager, you probably belong in the Hall of Fame. ah Welcome to Championship Robust, Warren Spahn. This is a good one. Is he a Hall of Famer? So in this series, he pitched three games and only started in one of them, but went one-on-one with a three-even ERA.
00:07:55
Speaker
But this is one of the best starting pitchers of all time. I don't think there's going to much of a debate here. He was elected by the BBWAA on what was technically his second ballot, but he got a vote as an active player in 1958.
00:08:07
Speaker
But really the first, if we're going by the new rules, he got 83.2% of the vote in 1973. And it kind of blows my mind that that was all he got. I have to look at who was on the ballot with him ah because that sounds insane. Spahn is a one-time Cy Young winner and a three-time runner-up.
00:08:24
Speaker
But I want you keep in mind Cy Young voting wasn't a thing until 1956. And he was that year. So he was actually the second Cy Young winner ever. And at the time, it was only one total. So it was not American League, National League. It was one Cy Young winner.
00:08:39
Speaker
And he was the second one ever. He was age 36 when he won it. And he finished top two four times. That's awesome. After the age of 35.
00:08:51
Speaker
Just let that sink in for a second. Yeah, if they created it 1940, he would have won four or five of them. Yeah. He led the league in wins eight times, ERA three times, strikeouts four times, whipped four times, and made all-star games in 14 different seasons in a 21-year career that was almost exclusively with the Boston and Milwaukee Braves.
00:09:12
Speaker
um The Mets actually had him for a little bit in his age 44 season where he went 4-12, but we're not going to talk about that. ah but his Ah, the Mets. Only the Mets. As soon as he leaves, he went for – well, he did struggle the year before in Milwaukee as well. They got him after a 5.290 area season. So but that was he was 43 at that point.
Warren Spahn's Career and Historical Context
00:09:34
Speaker
He was done.
00:09:35
Speaker
ah But he finished with a 363 and 245 career record, 2,500 strikeouts in a low strikeout era, and a 92.6 war. And if we don't count that last age 43 season with the Braves, he's almost at 95 war.
00:09:50
Speaker
His 363 wins are, and I guess, will always be sixth of all time. And he lost his age 22, 23, and 24 seasons to military service on top of it. my God. Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:10:03
Speaker
Hey, wait, you forgot. He did accumulate eight war from hitting. Yes, he did. Oh, correction. A hundred war. He did hit a hundred war for counting the hitting, yes. You're absolutely right.
00:10:14
Speaker
Is he a Hall of Famer? Duh. Without a question. Yes, yes, yes. Looking like the Islanders chant. Is he a champion of a sole favorite? Yes, he is. I have him level four, and I might have to move him up. Give me the rankings. Give me the rankings. i want to hear it. All right, here we go so let me go. let me just search the doc up to spawn. Okay.
00:10:35
Speaker
So he's actually my top pitcher in level four. Maybe I do just have to move him up for name purposes. So above him, I have number 11, Grover Cleveland Alexander. Mm-hmm. Number 10, Cy Young.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yep. Number 9, Tom Seaver. Yeah. Number 8, Sandy Koufax. Okay. 7, Christy Mathewson. Yep. 6, Pedro Martinez. Wow.
00:10:57
Speaker
Considering the AL East. Yeah, I didn't think about that, but guess you're 3, Cy Youngs, 2, runner-ups, 8, all-stars. to Career 2.93 ERA in the steroid era is insane. Yeah. 5, Greg Maddox. Yep. 4, Lefty Grove. Yep.
00:11:13
Speaker
Three, Randy Johnson. Yeah. Two, Roger Clemens. One, Walter Johnson. ah He might be ranked perfectly. Who's behind him? Steve Carlton.
00:11:24
Speaker
Zach's not goingnna like this being this high, but I have Clayton Kershaw. Oh, that's disgusting. Yeah. Bob Gibson. Bob. I don't want to spoil the next one because coming up later. But spoiler Bob Feller. I don't think there'll be much debate there. Yeah. Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer, Carl Hubble.
00:11:39
Speaker
Whitey Ford. That's the top 20. Kershaw's above Whitey Ford. Yes, Whitey Ford is, I honestly might have him too high. i think I think you need like you need to move Spawn up.
00:11:51
Speaker
I think I might have, what, to level 5, you mean? Yeah. How about the ranking? I kind of like where he is, though. I think it's i think he's in a perfect We can make 12 pitchers in level 5. I don't dislike the ranking, but I don't think he's level 4. All right, level he'll move up to level five. I'm that. He'll be the bottom pitcher level five.
00:12:09
Speaker
And Steve Carlton will be the top of four for now. We'll get to him at some point because he did play in four World Series. yeah I might have to move him up. He's a four-time Cy Young winner with 4,000 strikeouts. i don't know. i i I was very stingy on the levels.
Lou Boudreau's Hall of Fame Debate
00:12:21
Speaker
for a while and I might have to like re-assemble the levels like where the starting and stopping ends because now I have a lot more in level one than I used to have so maybe some bump up to two some bump up to three it's hard to great spawn man because who knows how many Cy Young's he would have won yeah I know but considering the fact four top that that's crazy to me ah yeah who years he was a linear array three times and he didn't win MVP and or he didn't win Cy Young Two of those seasons, they didn't exist. And one of those seasons, he lost.
00:12:53
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And he won and served. Josh, I know you have a personal story with Spawn, right? So I'll let you share that if you'd like. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of these guys, when they went to war, well, Spahn actually saw combat, first of all. He wasn't one of those guys that went over there and, and you know, got a cushy job or anything like that. Like, he he saw combat. He has a silver heart, a purple heart. is some He actually has, like, a legitimate metal.
00:13:22
Speaker
who um That's interesting. But, you know, a lot of these guys, you know, when the war ended, they didn't you know they didn't come straight back to America. um or they stayed on base or whatever they were doing. um yeah My grandfather told a story about that you know these guys would go out there and they'd play baseball because what what else were they going to do? The war's over.
00:13:41
Speaker
And Spahn would get up on the mound and throw the guys and in the military. Wow. Wait, so your grandpa got to like try to hit against That's what he says. Are you for real?
00:13:53
Speaker
no Wow. That's why I wanted him to point that out. I'm sure a lot of guys have a similar story. That's awesome. Oh, he was in Battle of the Bulge. Yes, he's so legitimate. Yeah.
00:14:04
Speaker
My God. So he got a sharp null wound and got a purple heart and a bronze star for bravery. He was discharged in 1946. So he did all this with a sharp null wound. at serving but Yeah, he's level five. You're right. Yeah. when It's funny like doing this because like when I did the list, I straight up looked at the baseball reference page and nothing more. And circumstances matter in these things.
00:14:27
Speaker
So getting to do a dive on these guys absolutely helps. And he belongs in level five. No doubt about it.
00:14:38
Speaker
Wow. I should have added Lethaling Complete Games nine times, I believe. Yeah. He led the league in complete games seven straight seasons from age 36 to 42. That's insane. Yeah. And led two other times when was younger. But 36 to 42, he led the league in complete games every year.
00:14:55
Speaker
Some of these careers that we get to talk about, just absolutely insane. Like, this is an inner circle guy. Yeah. And if we're talking, like, When I did the max score turn into Hall of Fame probability, we were talking just pitchers, right?
00:15:09
Speaker
So just pitchers. He is one, two – we're not going to have Babe Ruth's pitcher. Two, three, four, five. Sixth all time. Wow. So he he belongs there. Yeah.
00:15:23
Speaker
No doubt about it. He's six all time in my own Hall of Fame probability thing I made. So there is something to that. Good for him. Level five. I think craziest thing about Spawn, too, is that he has 28 career saves. like He was going out there and starting 40 games a year and then going and throwing you know the end of the game every once in a while, too.
00:15:46
Speaker
Yeah. Geez. I mean, he came in relief for two of these games in the series. Yeah. And like this is younger Spahn, but he was already an all-star starter who pitched 30. He started 35 games this season and then came in relief for two of these.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yep. Man.
00:16:04
Speaker
What a career. Yeah. Inner circle legend, Warren Spahn. But that's it for the Braves. We'll do the winning Cleveland Indians. So Joe Gordon, we've talked about with the Yankees. It's his first and only pennant with Cleveland, but it's his fifth title in six World Series appearances. He struggled in this one, hit 182, hit a home run, but went four for 22 in the series.
00:16:26
Speaker
But he finished sixth in MVP voting this season. We had him level one as a second baseman. and I think everyone kind of said that was about right. I think he was split. on um whether or not he got in our Hall of Fame.
00:16:38
Speaker
ah Let's see. Yeah, Zach was the no on him. and Not shocked. just out Yeah, small hall guy.
Bob Feller and Satchel Paige: Career Evaluations
00:16:46
Speaker
ah Next new player, welcome Lou Boudreau.
00:16:50
Speaker
I feel weird starting with him because I think he might be the toughest debate of the bunch, but we might as well do him. It's first and only World Series. I went six for 22 with four doubles and three RBI.
00:17:01
Speaker
Izzy Hall of Famer. He was elected in the class of 1970 by the writers with 77.3% of the vote. He won MVP this season, had three top five finishes and eight top tens with seven all-star appearances.
00:17:14
Speaker
He won the batting title in 1944, led the league in war twice, Now, when I read the career numbers, I want you to remember he was a shortstop in the 40s, okay? He finished his career with a 295 batting average, 795 OPS, which turned out to be 120 OPS+. plus OPS plus does not account for position, I believe. It accounts for era, and it accounts for the stadium you play in.
00:17:39
Speaker
So he was 20% above league average at a position that was not offensive heavy. And finished with 1779 hits and 63 in war. Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:17:52
Speaker
Oh, God.
00:17:56
Speaker
I'm thinking. This one is so hard, dude. He's a legit hard one. And we could come back to it. That's the bio.
00:18:05
Speaker
So if you guys want to think on it, i'm we could always revisit that one. I don't know. We're here. i'm just It's legitimately hard. I'm not i'm not s saying either way where I'm at until you guys know. His peak is what? He had two years with eight. Oh, no. So four years above Seven War.
00:18:24
Speaker
Yes. Four seasons above Seven War. He's definitely a sabermetric darling. Yeah. Four seasons above Seven War, correct? Yeah. um Eight top ten MVP finishes.
00:18:36
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So people did think highly of him at the time. I know the stats are low. Yeah. um But are the stats low relative to – what was expected of him at the time period.
00:18:55
Speaker
He did lead the league in defensive war four times as well. He was a very, very good fielder. he he If they were giving out gold gloves, he probably i would have won four at least. maybe more That's helpful. And I do use that in my...
00:19:08
Speaker
i know i'm I know I say I'm not a big war guy, and I'm not, but for these pre-goal glove era guys, not that gold gloves are any great either, but I think that context does need to be done, especially at such a defensive heavy position.
00:19:22
Speaker
So he was a legitimately great defensive shortstop who had offensive numbers that were very good for the the position at the time.
00:19:34
Speaker
He was 20% above league average offensively. Yeah. you know I'll go yes if we if we throw him in you know the bottom tiers. i can i can get I can get with that. We can make a throw him in.
00:19:46
Speaker
Josh? ah Wow. I'm going to say yes and down on the bottomest of bottom. Yeah. like Just scraped in.
00:20:00
Speaker
I'm pretty much with you guys there. I mean, I know I kind of spoiled where I was at ah for a while. If you look at shortstop, though, the numbers offensively are pretty weak across the board. So I have him in level one, but I do have him above like six other shortstops.
00:20:16
Speaker
Okay. Including guys like Omar Vizquel, who I had on the list for purely field reasons. Guys like Pee Wee Reese. Guys like Joe Conan. What?
00:20:28
Speaker
Not Fiskel, no. I know, and that's why I asked you guys if i'm ah if I can break my rule and yank him out. I don't want him in. But at the end of the day, like he's got 2,800 hits and 11 gold gloves. How do I keep that guy out? I'm sorry.
00:20:45
Speaker
You know, I think if Pedro didn't like fall off a cliff at age 32, basically, I think this would have been a much easier decision. Mm-hmm.
00:20:56
Speaker
But he had a he had a good peak. He had a really good peak. And it's like just enough to say, like, yeah, he was... You know what I've said before?
00:21:10
Speaker
If you're a top one or two player in your position for a 10-year period, you should be in the Hall of Fame. And it appears that he was. So that's what I'm sticking with. He won a batting title.
00:21:20
Speaker
He did. He did win a batting title. Yeah, 1944. There you go. there you go So you're a strong defensive shortstop who won a batting title in an era that offensive but was not expected out of shortstops. I don't want to say like they didn't want you to hit the ball. They did. But we're talking about guys that you know were not known for hitting the ball.
00:21:40
Speaker
He was definitely on juice the one year he won the MVP. In the 40s. Well, amphetamines. Excuse me. My bad. Dude, look at his stats. Home runs. 4, 18, 4, 1, 5. 10, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 9,
00:21:54
Speaker
Juice. RBI, 48, 62, 67, 106, 60, 29. Got those vitamin B shots. but Yeah. He had over 300 four times in his career. And that one season he had 355.
00:22:08
Speaker
So he was, don't know, man. The crack must have been. It's course through his veins or something. don't know, bro. Yeah. So shout out to Lou Bedreau, our second member of the Hall of Fame class of 1948.
00:22:23
Speaker
And we have four more to go. So we're we're having some fun here. um Do you guys want the debatable ones or the easy ones first? I'll do the easy ones first.
00:22:35
Speaker
All right. Welcome to Championship of Us, Bob Feller. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. One of the first Hall of Fame autographs actually ever got. He was an amazing guy to the fan. Signed everything to the point where his autographs are worth like nothing now. ah But is he a Hall of Famer? This is his first and only World Series appearance.
00:22:52
Speaker
He struggled in it. He went 0-2 with 5 ERA, gave up 8 earned runs in 14 innings, but was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1962. And if we're going by technical terms, he's actually the first first ballot Hall of Famer since the first class of 1936.
00:23:09
Speaker
So he got 93.8% of the vote, and that was the same year Jackie Robinson got in. So he got more votes than Jackie Robinson. ah He missed three prime years to military service, ah and he was coming off three straight top three MVP finishes and still finished with eight all-star seasons, leading the league in war three times, win six times, ERA once, complete games three times, shutouts four times, and strikeouts seven times. He did walk a lot of guys, though.
00:23:36
Speaker
So he finished his career with a 65 war, which probably would have been higher if he didn't walk so many. A 266 and 162 career record.
00:23:48
Speaker
And a 3.25 ERA with 2,500 strikeouts. Is he a Hall of Famer? Yes. Yeah, for sure. He's the only one of those guys where if they had Cy Youngs back then, he he would have won at least two, maybe three.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, he did finish with the three two three MVP voting. He probably wins the Cy Young those three years in a row. He left he had 9.2, 9.9, 8.2 war in those seasons, then went off to World War II.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah. So then had an incomplete season, then comes right back with a 10-war season. Yeah, ge that's – wow. now Unbelievable. So, yeah, he's he's another big peak guy.
00:24:30
Speaker
um Kind of fell off a bit after the age of 28 if you look at the ERAs. But, I mean, he would have had more than enough volume, especially if he played those three years.
00:24:43
Speaker
Because if anything, he'd be cutting out the bad end when he fell off. And definitely no juice here because he had a natural fall-off period.
00:24:52
Speaker
So, yeah, easy call right here. Yeah. So where does he land for you, Mikey? in your I had him 16th. um So he was, and I i had it before, let pull it up.
00:25:04
Speaker
He was 16th between Bob Gibson and Justin Verlander. Yeah. Which I think fits. I mean, the leading the league in walks four times does bring him down a bit. And the bad, I mean, it's not really fair to evaluate him off two games.
00:25:19
Speaker
But the bad World Series, and it's the only one he ever got to, that does sting a little bit. he's like i Like I said, I wish he had Cy Youngs, like Josh was saying before. Also let the league in the innings pitch five times, so he was an inning eater.
00:25:33
Speaker
Which could have impacted the rate numbers. But yeah, easy call here. Anything to add on Bob Feller? No, great career. one of the best.
00:25:45
Speaker
All right, let's get to the easy one that almost wasn't easy. Central page. ah My God, Josh, that's embarrassing. Anyway. i don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, it never happens. See you off pod.
00:26:00
Speaker
Josh and I had a bit of a confusion. okay we He was under the impression that the National Baseball Hall of Fame was the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. Once corrected, he changed his tune real quick. So he's forgiven.
00:26:11
Speaker
you know i just I just get so stuck in the in the thought that you know the stats shouldn't count together, that I got confused that the Hall shouldn't count together. And I hold Page on that. Not bad. However, the Hall of Fame, I think, is a – like you could have as many guys as you want the Hall of Fame within the limits, obviously.
00:26:30
Speaker
I get the record books being different. That's fine. um So Satchel Paige, to me – Other than Babe Ruth, might be the most mythical figure type guy we've ever had in baseball history.
00:26:45
Speaker
I'm sure you guys have heard all the stories. I'll go through them um when we get more into the bio. Obviously, the Negro Lee stats are incomplete. But what we have right now is a guy who led the league in ERA four times, strikeouts six times, whips six times, strikeouts to walks eight times, and eight all-star teams with a 132 and 82 career record and a 2.83 ERA in a career that ran until the age of 46.
00:27:08
Speaker
And then he came back to the game at the age of 58 for a game and pitched three scoreless innings. Wow. And with all that, they actually believe he might be 10 years older than he actually was because there was an age, ah birth certificate issue.
00:27:24
Speaker
He was elected by a special Negro League committee in 1971 that only elected him. And he was the first black pitcher in the American League. Is he a Hall of Famer? Yes.
00:27:35
Speaker
Yes. Thank you. God. You really scared me this morning, Josh. ah But yeah, I do have him in. i This is the first time we've ever really discussed this before.
00:27:46
Speaker
I don't have the guys like Josh and I were talking about who are predominantly Negro League players ranked just because how do you rank them? Right. So in the case of the whole probability, he does have a hundred he does have over 100% probability.
00:28:01
Speaker
He's probably in like the top – 30 range in that category but I don't use that for rankings I just use that for you have a shot at the Hall of Fame so I'm not gonna even really go by that either but just kind of ah a mention there he's definitely a Hall of Famer in whatever way you look at it there should be no question here now we got some debates well actually before that let me get into some Satchel Paige stories real quick because do you guys know any Satchel Paige stories feel like as a kid I read about him, but to be honest, it's been a while.
00:28:36
Speaker
All right. Let's run through just a couple. You guys know who Josh Gibson is, obviously, right? He was the guy who was in every record book when they added those stats in. So he's known as Blackley Bruce. Page faced Josh Gibson, right?
00:28:49
Speaker
And he walks – so Josh Gibson's due up third. He walks the first two batters just to face Gibson. Now, Gibson gets in the on-deck circle.
00:29:01
Speaker
Page tells him exactly how he's going to get him out. He threw two fastballs for strikes one and two, then tells him he's going to throw a pitch right at the knees, strikes him out, and then just walks off the field.
00:29:12
Speaker
Wow. Then, another game... and this is actually a recurring thing. Even the baseball hall of fame, like mentions this during like the barnstorming games that aren't in the stat sheets.
00:29:24
Speaker
There's a running story that page would tell his outfielders to sit on the grass, have his outfielders walk off the field and eat a hot dog, leave him alone on the mound. And he, with nobody out and he'd strike out, he'd strike out the side.
00:29:39
Speaker
Jesus. Then he's known to have 19 different pitches and, including the Midnight Creeper and the Dipsy Dew. And at the age of, we talked about the 58-59, he was turning 59 soon, we think.
00:29:54
Speaker
But he pitched three scoreless innings against the Kansas City Athletics. He allowed only one hit. Carl Yastrzemski faced him. He allowed one hit. Wow. And he brought out a rocking chair and a nurse to the bullpen in between innings.
00:30:07
Speaker
So he was supposedly 59. He might have been in his late 60s.
00:30:14
Speaker
Now, why does that matter to me for is he a Hall Famer? and Take any former player. They're 58, 59 years old right now, right? Let's say like maybe the guys who we just started growing up with. Alex turned 51 the other day.
00:30:29
Speaker
Right. So Alex is 51. So let's say, i don't know, like Mark Grudzelanek wants to come back and play three innings of baseball because why not? He feels like it. Do you think they're letting them play three innings of baseball at shortstop? No.
00:30:42
Speaker
They let Satchel Paige pitch for three innings in a game that mattered on September 25th, 1965. You know what that means? Satchel Paige mattered to baseball.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah. That's a Hall of Famer. They're not letting nobody do that. Yeah. That's the case. Take out the stats out of it. An ERA under three, pitching to 46, fine. mattered.
00:31:07
Speaker
He mattered. I don't know, man. I mean, I would take a 60-year-old over Will Warren any day right now. I mean, that is absolutely fair, but you don't see it happening.
00:31:18
Speaker
Like, let's have, ah let's say Andy Pettit wants to come back and pitch. They're not letting him come back and pitch. No, I would. I would, but Brian Cashman won't. Well, Brian Cashman does a lot of things that are just stupid.
00:31:30
Speaker
And then I know I'm running long on Satchel, but I have one more thing for you guys. In his autobiography, he wrote six steps on how to keep young, and I find them very entertaining. Number one, avoid fried meats which angry up your blood.
00:31:43
Speaker
Two, if your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Zach, that might help you. Thank you. ah Three, keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move.
00:31:57
Speaker
Four, go very light on the vices. What that mean? Such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. So I guess he just, you know, go light on socializing with people.
00:32:11
Speaker
Number five is my favorite. Avoid running at all times. Five is your favorite, not number three? No, number five. Avoid running at all times. The professional athlete, avoid running at all times. That's how to keep young. You're not an athlete. We know this.
00:32:26
Speaker
It's to keep young and have a ah happy life. And number six, don't look back. Something might be gaining on you. I love it. So that's the Satchel Paige rules to life. And I'll end it with that. But i I think we needed to hit that. And that's why the quote is so poetic from the intro.
00:32:42
Speaker
You know, yeah age, so a case of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter. That's Satchel Paige. I'm going to start jangling around now. Yeah, yeah. You got jangle around. Gyration sensation over there.
00:32:56
Speaker
All right. We have two more. This is running long. We have a lot of debates tonight. It's good stuff. So I apologize in advance. No, it's good. and These are the two probably toughest calls, I'd say, except maybe Bedreau.
00:33:08
Speaker
Bedreau is tough, but I think these guys might even be tougher. Welcome Championship Robust, Bob Lemon. So in this series, he went 2-0 with a 1.65 ERA, giving up three earned in 16 innings.
00:33:19
Speaker
Weirdly enough, he actually walked more batters than he struck out. He walked seven and struck out six. But is he Hall of Famer? He was elected by the writers in the 12th ballot with 78.6% 1976.
00:33:32
Speaker
Seven-time All-Star with Cleveland. finishing He's actually a Cleveland lifer. Finished fifth in MVP voting three times. And then eighth, ninth, and tenth once each. He led the league in wins three times. Complete games five times. Innings pitched four times. Batters faced five times. Strikeouts once and whip once. So another innings eater. We have a couple of those today. I guess Cleveland really had their guys pitching.
00:33:53
Speaker
ah He never led the league in ERA, but did finish in the top five five times. And considering the amount of innings he pitched, it's possible that you know he might have led the league a couple times. They pulled him earlier.
00:34:05
Speaker
And he finished top three and wins eight different times. So he finished his career with 207 128 record, ERA, twelve hundred strikeouts again low strikeout era and a thirty seven point five war Just for circumstantial purposes, he started his career at age 25, missing his first three seasons to military service.
00:34:27
Speaker
Is he a Hall of Famer?
00:34:30
Speaker
Oh, my God. These are hard, dude. These are legit hard, right? is rough day. This fun night because we got a lot of them. Oh, my God. i kind of want to hear Zach's answer on this one. Oh, boy.
00:34:41
Speaker
It's funny, right? Because I'm always the guy that like misses wins. like Wins don't mean anything. And now this guy, I feel like wins are kind of inflating him. That's like my initial impression. um He's never top five.
00:34:55
Speaker
You said he finished top five a bunch for MVP voting. Never got above five. Yep. So i I kind of lean no. I'll be honest with you. So let's let's take a look at that, actually. That's a great point. I want to see who finished above them.
00:35:10
Speaker
Because if they were all hitters, then we would know they Cy Youngs. Oh. um The first year was all hitters. Bedro, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, and Stevens. Okay. That was in 48. So let's say standards.
00:35:23
Speaker
fifty All hitters, Rizzuto, Goodman, Barrakel. So if we're saying the MVP – and that's not necessarily would have happened. But would the MVP have been – sorry, would the Cy Young have been the top guy in MVP voting?
00:35:39
Speaker
He finished fifth in MVP voting. his The last time he finished fifth, he was the top pitcher. But early win was right behind him, also a pitcher, also on Cleveland. So – If he wins two of those, he's a two-time Cy Young winner.
00:35:54
Speaker
I don't know if we can really account for that, but I don't know. It makes it harder. don't know. I really don't know. If you're splitting it based on league, yeah. but if If they were doing the rules back then where one guy gets it, he wouldn't have won any of those years.
00:36:09
Speaker
Correct. The game was better than him every time. And the year he finished eighth, he was the third highest pitcher, and a pitch the pitchers actually finished first and second in MVP. So I guess they were more open to voting pitchers back then. Bobby Shantz won the MVP. Allie Reynolds came in second.
00:36:23
Speaker
Both were pitchers. Yeah, well, you know the philosophy now. The philosophy now well, they're so young, they don't need MVP. Right, so maybe that's – yeah. But if he was the best pitcher in the league those years, based purely on MVP voting, today's world, he has this career with two Cy Youngs, maybe three.
00:36:42
Speaker
I think three Cy Youngs are automatic, but if he doesn't win that third Cy Young, is he a Hall of Famer? I don't i don't know. So Zach, you're going no? i still i Unfortunately, I still think I lean no. it The record, like the wins are the only thing that's like jumping out at me.
00:37:02
Speaker
And he's an innings eater, so like it's not like... Yeah, I'm going to have to go no, unfortunately. i am a I am going to second you here, Zach. I am also going no.
00:37:14
Speaker
It's tough, though, right? It's very tough. It is tough. My my rationale here is that ah he never really led in anything other than innings pitched and hits given up.
00:37:27
Speaker
Mm-mm. Complete game five times. and Yeah. yeah That was part of the end. Yeah, but complete games, I mean, they're important, but they're not as important. He's an innings eater. yeah It's really, it all like Zach said, it comes it comes down to he's an innings eater.
00:37:43
Speaker
was But was he the best pitcher? No. But he could... I don't know, throw the ball over the plate longer than all the other guys and not get destroyed. but Funny.
00:37:55
Speaker
Yeah, don't think his career war is not good. It's crazy. He can never really play that long. Right. like we We long for 20 game winners nowadays, and he has like five or six seasons with over 20 wins. and it's like For me, that doesn't do anything in that era right now.
00:38:13
Speaker
It wasn't like a feat the way it is now. Right. But yeah, I mean he had what one season over five war. i don't know. Right, right, right. Yeah, I'm going no. So i'm a re i'm I'm not a reluctant yes, but I'm a very, very borderline yes.
00:38:31
Speaker
When I did the original first... draft of this list he was the last guy in I've since added guys below him that I probably should be having over him but honestly didn't pay much attention to it so right now I have him 57 out of like 70 but he probably should be like 68 out of 70 so right now I actually had him and I'm you're go not gonna like this one at all You agree he has a pretty short career due to circumstances beyond his control.
00:39:01
Speaker
You agree that his yeah ERA was pretty solid. He was an innings eater. he was durable. But um most likely he has two Cy Youngs if they do him the current way. I have him just below Jacob deGrom.
00:39:13
Speaker
Wow.
00:39:16
Speaker
Oh, my God. i don't know how I feel about that, though. DeGrom's ERA has to be much better. DeGrom's ERA is 2.57 in a better era. so it is like I mean, that's crazy. I'm sorry. haven't paid much attention. I honestly did not pay much attention to where Bob Lemon was. I was focused more on the other guys.
00:39:34
Speaker
It's not fair. I agree. That's gross. I'm sorry. Let's see. Let's bring him down a little bit and see where we're at. I mean, I had Louis Tiant there. he probably should drop a little bit since I've added more. um Tommy John. I think DeGrom was also a special case because do you know?
00:39:49
Speaker
Oh, correction. He was 57 out of 64. I had less pitchers in than I thought. Do you know if DeGrom is the most strikeouts to walk ratio ever? He does, but it's also he's played half the games of Bob Lemon.
00:40:02
Speaker
So if he actually played... he played half the games, he has more war than him. That should be the answer to your question right there. The lower ERA. Well, lower ERA and less games, of course, is going to happen. But let's say we double his games. Is his ERA around 3.2?
00:40:15
Speaker
Maybe. If he doubles his games, probably finishes with 65 war. All right, we'll drop him to the lowest. And that's assuming he's a third ah he's he's half the player he was in the first half of his career.
00:40:30
Speaker
All right, so we'll drop them below Andy Pettit and Jack Morris, and we'll have them there at the bottom. That feels better. All right, that's fine. All right, like I said, i can I can hear you guys out. I'm open to being willing to change.
00:40:46
Speaker
Lemon has 64% Hall of Fame probability. it's pretty solid. um So, yeah. So, I'm a yes. You guys are a no. I kind of expected that. This one's probably – I think I know where you're going with this. I think I know where both you are going with this, and I think you're to disagree.
00:41:01
Speaker
Welcome to Championship Bus, Larry Doby. It's our final debate of the night. In this series, he had 318 with an 875 7 22 with a home run and a double. Is he a Hall of Famer? This could be considered his rookie season after integrating in the Major League Baseball.
00:41:16
Speaker
He finished second and eighth in MVP voting. He made eight All-Star games, including one in the Negro Leagues. Led the league in home runs twice, RBI once, on base once, slugging once, and OPS twice.
00:41:27
Speaker
He finished his career in the American League, not counting the Negro Leagues, with a.283 batting average and an.876 OPS with a.136 OPS plus, 1,500 hits, 250 home runs, 970 runs batted in, obviously shortened due to obvious reasons.
00:41:42
Speaker
But with the Negro Leagues, he had an OPS over one and a one seventy eight ops plus Is he a Hall of Famer? There's a little tidbit here that matters a lot. I don't know if you guys know it, but I'm going save it for later.
00:41:55
Speaker
Is he a Hall of Famer just as a player? We'll start with that.
00:42:03
Speaker
I like how you asked that question. I know where you're going to go with this. I know, and I'm sure you do, but I'm saying let's stick to it as a player because it matters for my answer as well. Strictly on the numbers, no.
00:42:16
Speaker
No. Agreed. I agree. um Yeah, now go ahead. Now, do you guys both know? Yes. Okay. Larry Dolby was the first American League player to break the color barrier.
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah. Is that enough to make him a contributor? Absolutely. Yes, Josh? Yes. Okay, so we all agree here he's a contributor. Toby, as an MLB player, was a whole of very good.
00:42:43
Speaker
He came in the league at 23, and he had a very good 13-year career-ish, whatever, 14-year career, and then retired and worked as a scout and a coach and a manager at one point.
00:43:01
Speaker
He had a very respectable career, but the integration is what puts him in the hole. Yeah, that's fair. But yeah, so that leaves us with five members of the class of 1948, Warren Spahn, Lou Boudreau, Larry Dobie as a contributor, Bob Feller, and Satchel Paige.
00:43:17
Speaker
That was fun. That was good. That was good a lot. that was I think our most debate-heavy one we've had, any series that had that many. Yeah, these are always favorite. And a lot of borderline yeses.
00:43:29
Speaker
What? I said its sorry. It's always one of my favorite episodes when we do stuff like that. It's stuff. Yeah, we we need more of them. Yeah. And we have one more debate coming later, but we'll save that for current events, which is a good segue for you. Hooray.
00:43:43
Speaker
Hello. We can start before we get into the trade deadline and all that stuff, because as day of recording, it's July 28th. The deadline is now August 3rd. Wasn't it always, wasn't July 31st when we were kids and and they moved it? Am I like i misremembering things?
00:43:59
Speaker
ah no i I don't know. I don't know either. for some reason, I always thought it was July 31st. Anyway, wanted to bring up Aroldis Chapman real quick because now he holds the all-time strikeouts for a relief pitcher.
00:44:12
Speaker
um So, Mike, I wanted to throw that to you where that you know lies with his Hall of Fame case and stuff like that. Oh, yeah. He hit the record, i think, like a week and a half-ish ago.
00:44:24
Speaker
um So this is a guy who has nine all-star appearances, has 392 saves, so he's most likely going to hit 400 by the end of the season. um He has 1376 strikeouts. That breaks Hoyt Wilhelm's, I think, 53-year record of strikeouts for a reliever.
00:44:41
Speaker
Two top 10 Cy Young finishes and was, a I think, the underrated part of his case. And when we vote, I think it matters. He was a workhorse in the breaking of the curse in 2016 with the Cubs.
00:44:54
Speaker
The stats all look great, but he was pitching like every night. True. He pitched 13 games in the postseason in 2016.
00:45:03
Speaker
Wow. So 15 innings, six runs. For the most part, he pitched very well. A couple games notwithstanding. Sorry, I'm just going back to the him breaking Wilhelm's record. He broke Wilhelm's record and and less than half the innings.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah, that too. Wow. So my question was going to be, is he a Hall of Famer? um But I guess the follow up question would be, did the strikeout record do anything for his case in either direction? so obviously Chapman is still pitching very well. He still has plenty of time to write his case.
00:45:36
Speaker
So we can kind of take this wherever you guys want. Well, as long as he's better than Billy Wagner, I think I'd put him in. thats but you're just You're not anti-closure anymore? You're anti-Billy Wagner is what I'm hearing?
00:45:48
Speaker
I don't, yeah, pretty much. Poor Billy Wagner. So he's ninth all-time in saves. I know saves isn't the best stat. He passed Dennis Eckersley recently as well, but Eckersley was also a starter.
00:45:59
Speaker
um He's the highest saves guy outside of the 400-save club. So Moe and Trevor have 600-plus. Jansen is 488. Lee Smith is in 478. Craig Kimball, 440.
00:46:12
Speaker
Francisco Rodriguez, 437. John Franco is the one who gained no Hall of Fame traction with 424. Probably an underrated case it should be looked at again. Billy Wagner, 422, and then Chapman.
00:46:25
Speaker
Wow. So he's ninth. Another season of, let's say, 30 saves, he'll be seventh. Maybe sixth. Yeah, I guess I have to put him in now.
00:46:37
Speaker
Wow. Look at you voting. at this. Character development. I can't believe it. Character development. Now, Zach, did the strikeout record do anything for you in that decision? Yes. No, the strikeout put me over the edge. And then um I think this late resurgence with the with the Red Sox actually has really made me rethink about him.
00:47:00
Speaker
I probably would have said no before just because I thought he was falling off, but he really hasn't. He's pitched very well.
00:47:08
Speaker
Josh. I'm curious, Zach. ah So we're saying yes to Chapman. How do we feel about ken Kenley Jansen?
00:47:19
Speaker
who Keep in mind, mine has 90 more saves than Chapman does. Yeah. I guess. At the same age, in the same amount of seasons. I guess so. I guess so.
00:47:30
Speaker
If you're putting it love it. I love this. i Reluctantly, I have to put these guys in now. Josh is himself so much. Yeah, know. This is torture for me. No, wait. Can I follow this up? Oh, no. Does this change your opinion on Francisco Rodriguez at all?
00:47:42
Speaker
No. That's more frustrating. oh and He's got 437. He has the record for most saves in a season ever.
00:47:51
Speaker
He's a six-time All-Star, more than Jansen. He has more top five Cy Young finishes than Chapman and Jansen combined. He was part of a championship team. He was not the closer, but he was a middle reliever with an under-2 ERA. can we ah Is he still on the ballot next year? Can we revisit this conversation?
00:48:09
Speaker
We can definitely revisit this conversation. He's absolutely on the ballot. It'll be really funny if we get three yeses here and he only gets like 10% of the vote. Yeah, ballot next year is terrible. So, I mean, you you have you have no excuse to... Oh, right. Right. Him and Utley. Yeah. That's right. We love character development.
00:48:24
Speaker
Oh, God. Well, he yeah he's got John Lester to talk about, too. My guy. Yes. My wild Jay Bruce. Jay Bruce. Jay Bruce is getting his vote. Wade Davis. Oh, Wade Davis. Who doesn't love Wade Davis?
00:48:37
Speaker
Now there's a reliever that should be in. love Wade Davis. It's going really tough for K-Rod to get in because Wade Davis is coming on. Right, right. Is anybody but Craig Kimbrell at this point? No, literally, I hate Craig Kimbrell. I hate Billy Wagner.
00:48:49
Speaker
and Well, let me ask this where would you this. How would you rank these three in just a, like, you're the Hall of Fame committee, you can only put one in... Oh, wait, all right, wait, hold on.
00:49:01
Speaker
I would rank it. I just, all right, we're looking at K-Rod and Chapman.
00:49:07
Speaker
Chapman, barely a better war, right? Fine. um Obviously, K-Rod has more saves. Chapman has a better ERA, ERA plus. Chapman has more strikeouts, 200 more strikeouts, better K-rate.
00:49:20
Speaker
um Both have two Relief of the Year awards. So if I had to pick, I'd actually go Chapman over K-Rod. and its but That's fair.
00:49:30
Speaker
i i meant i misspoke. I meant between the three active guys. Jansen, Kimbrell, Chapman. Sorry. Oh. um
00:49:40
Speaker
You're saying put in two, I'm at one? I'm saying one, two, three. If you can only put in one, then if you can put in two. okay well, I had to look at the numbers. But my – I mean, i it's just one of the head frustrating. I don't like Kimbrell, which is just mean. But –
00:49:59
Speaker
Yeah, I'd probably put Chapman in right now off the top my head just because we're talking about him. Wow. Just Kimbrell, I feel like, his should have retired like two years ago, if being honest with you. Yeah, i agree with that. But I think Kimbrell's peak was the best of the three.
00:50:12
Speaker
Maybe. He had five years. He was the best closer in baseball. There was a zero question about it.
00:50:19
Speaker
Josh, what are your thoughts on the rankings of the closers?
00:50:23
Speaker
You know, that's a great question. I would probably put Chapman number one. Wow. Kimbrell 2 and K-Rod 3. Wait, so Chapman, Kimbrell, Jansen 3?
00:50:36
Speaker
Jansen, sorry, yeah. At first, it was funny. like the The thing Chapman that I think differentiates him from the other guys is that he's still doing it. Yeah. He is doing it.
00:50:47
Speaker
Kimbrell was the better prime reliever than all of them. He's funny. He's so bad. ah The end of his career was just so horrifically bad. Yes.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah, it just got worse. And we'll have a lot of Kimbrell discussion, but i I want to throw out the fact that five top ten Cy Young finishes as a closer is nuts.
00:51:11
Speaker
That is nuts, yeah. He has a career 2.65 ERA career, including this. that is That's how good he was. He has, let's see, how many seasons? Dude, just imagine if he retired when he was like not falling off a cliff.
00:51:27
Speaker
So he has four seasons, guys, where he pitched at least 60 games and has an ERA under two. Man, he fell off the cal cliff. I don't know what you're and just I understand that. He hit the ground splat.
00:51:41
Speaker
But guys like Andrew Jones, it didn't matter.
00:51:46
Speaker
won all those gold clubs, you know. and know makes it ever I don't know. Four seasons under two ERA pitching 60 games. He was incredible.
00:51:57
Speaker
I get it. So originally I had Kimbrell 1, Jansen 2, Chapman 3, and like you, Zach, I did not um what's the word think Chapman had any chance when he left the NBA.
00:52:11
Speaker
Or even when he was with Pittsburgh or anything like that. This Boston resurgence bumped him significantly. I actually think I might have a number one also out of these guys. Yeah, he I don't know what he's doing now, but he he's pitching a little well. I'm sorry, can you go back? How many times did Kimbrel have an under-2 ERA pitching 60 games?
00:52:29
Speaker
Four times. So does Chapman. Wow. Oh, there you go. One's 59 games, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on that. Wow. And then he had another season where he pitched 79 games and had 2.1. Yeah.
00:52:43
Speaker
yeah That's Kimbrell, I mean. but um And Chapman's on pace to do it again. Well, I guess he's not going to – he's probably not going to have 60 games this year. Now, the uncomfortable part is that Chapman has no chance of actually getting in.
00:52:57
Speaker
Oh, right, right. Forgot about all that. But we're about that right now. We're talking on the field. Yeah. yeah He has no chance. They're never going to put him in just from that alone. Yeah.
00:53:07
Speaker
Yes. But, I mean, i guess they put Andrew Jones in. Who knows? But he got suspended for It it was during his career. i don't know. Yeah. But I... Still gets my vote.
00:53:18
Speaker
What? What? no yes Oh, boy. So I'll take that as you're a yes for him right now on field. I'm a yes for him on field. So he is a championship-most Hall of Fame in class of 2026. Love to say it.
00:53:31
Speaker
Just the first reliever to make in the championship-most Hall of Fame? boy. I believe so. Oh my God. we never We never formally voted on Mariano or Trevor Hoffman. We weren't doing the shit. Well, I'm sure they'll get in. That's true. Billy Wagner did not make the cut. So it really comes down to what Zach vote for them.
00:53:47
Speaker
but za Zach, we can literally just straight on one bit, just run through all the relievers and you just say yes or no and then we just expand this Hall Fame. Maybe the next Hall of Fame. Yeah, he has five seconds to decide. just go Oh god, no, I can't do that. like Jonathan Pavelbon. No.
00:54:04
Speaker
Good start. Joe Nathan. No. Jeff Reardon. Who? Okay, never mind. Dan Quisenberry. No. Trevor Hoffman. Yes. Mariano. Yes.
00:54:16
Speaker
Billy Wagner. No. Lee Smith. Yes. Ooh. Raleigh Fingers. Yes. Dennis Eckersley. Yes. Okay. We added five names just like that. Love it. I assume, Josh, your yes is on all five of those? Yes.
00:54:31
Speaker
Okay, cool. we'll add them in. I love the every year it's a bunch of obviously historical people that we get to our class of whatever year it is, and then it's just a bunch of random modern people that we end up talking about. What? It's all about. It's a mishmash.
00:54:46
Speaker
We should like tweet out the class at the end of the year and be like, why is Lance Berkman on the list? but no Aroldis Chapman, Trevor Hoffman, Mariano, Raleigh Fingers, Dennis Eckersley. Very normal podcast episode today. And there was one other one. Why am I blanking? We'll go back and edit and post, but that's funny.
00:55:07
Speaker
Lee Smith. That's who was. Okay, we got everything. We're good here. All right, awesome. We're in right All right, quick trade deadline talk. Awesome.
00:55:17
Speaker
Wanted to throw out some big names, just see what your thoughts are, what teams are you winning. Before you start that, can we flame the Red Sox for a second here? Oh, I have a guy that, yeah.
00:55:30
Speaker
Early for Curtis Mead, bro. Mead sucks. Well, he has a broken hand now, so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that had nothing to do with it, but that sucks for it sucks for everybody, honestly. But why? don't know. mean, dude, Early is poised to be a very, very good pitcher for a very long time, and they traded it away for a guy who was not very good and had a one-round season where he's hitting home runs. His average is still bad.
00:55:56
Speaker
I don't know, dude. That is not a move. That is not a good move. I don't know, man. They fired Alex Cora, too, but I guess that worked, so... Yeah, well, look what happens when you fire your manager.
00:56:11
Speaker
Who would have thought? I don't know. would have thought? At least we can get that out, too. Yeah, Don Mattingly. Except the Mets. wow that's no There's no fixing that disaster, unfortunately. No, that is a fire the GM situation, not fire the and the manager.
00:56:27
Speaker
But where do we think Scoobles is going? Or do you think the Tigers are actually going to move him?
00:56:35
Speaker
There was a thing today that said that they want to move them, but they don't know if it's realistic. think they have to. I think they're going to. I think the asking price is going to be astronomical.
00:56:45
Speaker
As it should be. it should be. Yeah. but i think I think that they're going to falter. The asking price is going to be too high, and they're not going get something done before the deadline. Unless the Dodgers turn around and handle the farm. I was going that was my pick. I think the Dodgers are going to get them.
00:57:03
Speaker
I'm sure they don't care about their prospects right now. If somebody gets them, it's going to be the Dodgers. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm not convinced he's going to leave. Totally because I don't think they're going to be able to settle on a deal in time.
00:57:17
Speaker
I mean, they've got to hurry up, dude. They're not making the playoffs the way they're playing. But we will see. Well, they DFA'd their catcher. The backup catcher, sorry. m And I was kind of like, well, this is the guy that Scoob likes to throw it to.
00:57:31
Speaker
Right. Oh, okay. So that's a question mark. Yeah. But the underrated thing is, are these guys going to actually play next year? And these owners are assuming not. oh So trade deadline probably going to be boring.
00:57:46
Speaker
Yeah, probably. yeah How crazy is that? Because Scoobles, how old? ah What do you, when you hit free agency? 28? 27? 28? He's around. Yeah, he's...
00:57:57
Speaker
eight twenty seven twenty eight he's been around yeah he's 29. He's turning 30 in 100 days. thirty he's going to 31 when they get him out. man you eat they'll finish it I see why the MLBPA wants to change that. You have to wait until you're 30 to hit free agency?
00:58:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's crazy. it's yeah At least he made 32 million this year. Yeah. Our next one. Do we think Miller moves from the Padres? It very much feels like it.
00:58:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yankee. All right. Yankees have the best bullpen in baseball, they're going to go trade following system for Mason Miller. That was my follow-up. my God. It's Brian Cashman, the best fucking GM I've ever heard of.
00:58:38
Speaker
Because we really think... that's what we need to be focusing our resources on. Yeah, absolutely. What do you mean? We don't need both. It's terrible. How many times do we walk through a game for three winning? How are you going to get the ball to Mason Miller when you can't, when you're running out of triple a lineup?
00:58:53
Speaker
Oh, we just give him five innings. What do you mean? What do you mean? the Aaron judge, Cody Bellinger. What do you mean? Hurt, hurt. Get me out. Your deadline acquisitions. going to call us right on as a well.
00:59:07
Speaker
And they'll just put Will Warren in a bullpen and take whoever's actually throwing really well so Will Warren can go back to the bullpen. Will Warren and Ryan Reyes, the two guys with five ERAs that the Yankees said, these are going big parts of our bowl of our starting five this year.
00:59:21
Speaker
You know, with five ERAs. And just as we say that, the Yankees just let a ball drop because no one called for it. Three guys ran for it. It dropped in between them. Let me guess, was Volpe one of them? yes Yes, he was. Oh, who would have thought?
00:59:35
Speaker
Schumann, Volpe, and I think Mazzario, it looks like. Yeah, lazy, lazy, and even lazier. Mike and I were at the game in Philly on Sunday. There's a AAA team.
00:59:46
Speaker
It's a AAA team that Ben Rice just happens to be on. It's Ben Rice, a AAA team. It's unbelievable. But that's what I'm saying, man. I don't i don't think that Miller – think you've got to go after a catcher. You've got to go after some other sort of help. But I don't know.
01:00:03
Speaker
I'm not opposed to going after Miller, but but you you can't give up the farm team for him. You can't. And they want they want a haul, obviously, because he's worth a haul. And they also want you to take Xander Bogarts, who is atrocious at making a lot of money. I know. And Mr. Chicken Buckets is not going to want to take on more money.
01:00:22
Speaker
Is he better than Volpe? Maybe. Yes, it's a low bar. It's a very low bar. At least he can kind of feel his position. can feel it, yeah. Good news, boys. Legrani has started throwing today.
01:00:35
Speaker
Oh, great. Just for him to get traded. Yeah, yeah so they can trade him. Or just let him rot for another three months. Yeah, that's awesome. The cash-in special. think I'd rather let him rot for the last three months.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, I would trade Spencer Jones, trade Dominguez, get those guys out of here. But the problem is what are you getting from them? Those are your starting outfielders right now. I don't know, man. You can't trade them.
01:00:57
Speaker
You physically cannot trade them. You're not even trading a diminished asset because they're not assets. Yeah. Well, would you trade Lombard if the Padres want Lombard? No. Are you giving him a- Miller?
01:01:09
Speaker
No. Absolutely not. I'm not doing that. No. Someone should push Cashman all out of the booth and in Yankee Stadium if he trades Lombard for Mason Miller. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What if you pull the Klay Holmes and after this season convert him to a starter?
01:01:23
Speaker
Is he the type of guy that you can start out like that though? No. Because threaten throws gas. i don't know you didn think their holmes could great i don't I don't think he's the same type of pitcher as Holmes.
01:01:35
Speaker
Miller throws gas. yeah I don't know, dude. I mean, Crochet was a reliever too, but I don't know, dude. So if you're doing that and you have a, I don't want to say a cheap starter, but a cheaper starter for what he would be.
01:01:51
Speaker
but i think the problem is here is that ah Matt Blake is good with relievers. Matt Blake is atrocious with starters. So do I think he can take a good reliever and turn him into a starter? No. Do I think he can take a mediocre starter and turn him into a good reliever? Yes.
01:02:06
Speaker
That's fair. Yeah. He's done a great job of it this year. Yeah. He has. Yeah. But he's very good. Apparently he seems to be very good at get letting these guys get through the order one time.
01:02:19
Speaker
Because that's what the Saber metrics say. They love their Saber metrics. So who do we think the Yankees get? Jeffers? Goodman? Jeffers. None of the above?
01:02:29
Speaker
Probably Jeffers. I think you get Jeffers. and she get I think they pay the Yankee tax for Jeffers. yeah They give way more than he's worth, and then they probably do something stupid and go get some outfielder you didn't even think they were going to go get.
01:02:42
Speaker
I think that's what they're going do. They could also get Luke. I feel like Luke Weaver is a solid option. Well, apparently they want Weaver. They want Holmes back. I don't want Holmes back. I'll take Weaver back.
01:02:54
Speaker
They want Holmes back because they can put him in the bullpen. oh No, no, no, no. We've already done that. what They want Holmes. I'm telling you, this is what I read today. They want Holmes because they can use him as as starter if they need him to, and then they can put him in a bullpen when people are healthy.
01:03:09
Speaker
Oh, so like what we did Jabba Chamberlain. Great. Yeah.
01:03:14
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, if the Mets to take Will Warren off our hands, I'd trade him for Clay Holmes. i' pack I go to his house, pack his bags, and drive him to Citi Field.
01:03:25
Speaker
Sign me up for Weaver. That's all I'm saying. I'll take him back in heartbeat. You know we're paying a Yankee tax for anything Cohen, though.
Player Signings and Strategic Alignments
01:03:31
Speaker
i Pay a Yankee tax, period. It don't matter. Even Stearns is clearly a moron. Cohen signs all our guys. Cohen has a Yankee fetish.
01:03:39
Speaker
Yeah. going create all of our... But this is Stearns, and Stearns is dumb, so... Yeah, have a you think Cohen's letting anything go right now? i don't know He's weird. What do you guys think about all that too? All the press conferences like no Stearns is my guy. He runs the team. He does whatever i don't know.
01:03:57
Speaker
He said it because he has to I guess I mean – He's gone. I should fire At the of the day, if you let a guy like Pete Alonzo walk, you have to be right.
01:04:08
Speaker
And I think the mindset for Cohen is you keep Stearns as your guy to take the whippings. You know, the thing with Alonzo, though, is like – I don't think it was particularly the ah wrong move to let Alonzo walk. The wrong move was what they replaced him with. Oh, yeah.
01:04:26
Speaker
And I agree with that, but like I'm saying from a fan outlook point, you're going to be graded on a negative curve if you ever trade a guy who's so beloved like that. You've got to be right. Yeah. ah you You can't mess that up.
01:04:42
Speaker
So if you're moving Alonzo, you have to hit on Bichette. You have to hit on Robert. You have to hit on everybody else. Devin Williams. Simeon. simian terrible you have to hit on all of them fred peralta well yeah where is he going with whiff yeah he's going back to milwaukee and the mets going to get less than what they what they traded for him which i'll find hilarious unbelievable right that the fans are not going to go for that one because with sterns the milwaukee ties oh yeah mean at this point you have to recoup anything you can
01:05:20
Speaker
Yeah. He's also
Team Dynamics: Lindor vs. Yankees' Movements
01:05:22
Speaker
had a terrible year, though. yeah Poor Freddie. I think this is a Mets function rather than a him function. probably is. But there's something with this but the Brewers, man. that People leave there and they fall off a cliff.
01:05:35
Speaker
Yeah. You know what that means. What do they know?
01:05:40
Speaker
What are they cheating? You said I'm not paying them.
01:05:44
Speaker
um Do you guys think Lindor gets moved? I really don't. No. I think it's all BS. He owns the team. Yeah, it's all He owns the team. He owns Cohen. Yeah. It's the it's the New York Lindors. Anybody he didn't like i got thrown off the team.
01:05:57
Speaker
I don't know if you know. Everybody's untouched. Well, let's say games. He's 375. It's actually up on the Yankee graphic right now. There you go. 11 runs batted in. 8 games. 5 extra base hits.
01:06:08
Speaker
So maybe he is turning it around. Everybody's gone from that team except for Soto, Lindor, McLean, Ewing. I mean, the same thing is like letting Nimmo go knowing that you had ah Ewing and the other guy, Benj. It doesn't look like a bad move now.
01:06:29
Speaker
It really doesn't. They have a good outfield. it's their infield that's so bad it it hurts to look at. yeah
Fan Sentiment and Player Departures
01:06:35
Speaker
no They revamped this infield too. They're all brand new guys other than Lindor. That's how ugly. i mean, every move blew up in their face.
01:06:44
Speaker
Yeah. And we didn't even talk about letting Diaz walk, too. Oh, right. Well, he's been hurt. I Diaz is little different because he got a lot of money. Yeah. then he blew his arm out and he's done. so Yeah.
01:06:57
Speaker
that That one doesn't hurt them because he got injured, I guess. so
Market for Shortstops: Evaluating Talent
01:07:00
Speaker
But he's another one who's so who was so beloved by the fan base, where again, if you let them walk voluntarily, the narrative going to be, well, you let our guys walk, and we're 30, 40 games worse than we were last year.
01:07:18
Speaker
So what are you doing about it? And now they're gone. Yeah. And the fans are responding. Games are $10 to get in. That's fun.
01:07:29
Speaker
I was going to go tonight for $11. I wish. Yeah. Shout out to the rain. Yeah. um Angels are trading Zack Netto. See, that's a shortstop we can get. But we don't have a long bars there.
01:07:42
Speaker
I think that's another one where they don't they don't actually do it. They dangle him out there, see what's available, and then say, never mind. But you guys want to say, we were at that game, and I said Volpe bought himself two more years with this game tonight. He literally bought himself two more years with this game tonight.
01:07:59
Speaker
Oh, he's hitting better now. Now the game is still there. The problem is, dude, is there's not a lot of good shortstops out there. And the ones that are quote-unquote good are overvalued and locked up.
01:08:11
Speaker
Yeah.
Yankees' Hitting Development Concerns
01:08:12
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you get a guy like Gunnar Henderson they thought was going rule the world. Gunnar Henderson sucks. He's atrocious. For all the Cal Rally hate that's going around about how bad he is, that he is ah completely taking all off of Gunnar Henderson because Gunnar Henderson is almost just as bad. That's a good point.
01:08:29
Speaker
Bobby Witt. I would say beyond Bobby Witt, there's not much. I mean, we were just at the Phillies game. Trey Turner sucks now. Terrible. He's got the up-down age.
01:08:40
Speaker
Corey Seager's been good, right? No, not one you, too. Wow, he's been bad. He's been terrible. yeah there's There's no really good shortstops out there. Yeah. I mean, the best shortstop in the league right now is CJ Abrams.
01:08:56
Speaker
Well, yeah and then nice he can't field. And he can't field. Yeah. every Trust me, all the reports are going around saying we want to turn him into a second baseman because he can't field.
01:09:10
Speaker
I wonder if he gets moved. Actually, I lied. The best shortstop in baseball is Otto Lopez.
01:09:19
Speaker
Wow. Why are you laughing at that? It's Bobby Witt. No, he's not wrong. Otto Lopez had a great year. Oh, is it better than Witt? Yes. He's hitting 331. Oh, my God. Never mind.
01:09:29
Speaker
Yeah. He's been having good year. Jesus. That. The Marlins middle infield is incredible. Oh, like Xavier Edwards too? yeah Edwards and yeah Lopez. They're not going home runs, but they are going to get on base. Yeah.
01:09:47
Speaker
Yeah. See, if I'm the Yankees, I'm calling them up. I would trade Lombard for one of them. That's a good idea. Both of them can play shortstop.
01:09:58
Speaker
you're You're buying him for $0.120 the dollar at best
01:10:03
Speaker
what more have you saying move i don't yeah i mean I don't love trading Lombard, honestly, either, but you have to remember the Yankees' track record of being unable to turn a hitter into, you know, swing the bat. so Just imagine if we traded Spencer Jones like two years ago.
01:10:16
Speaker
Who knows what we would have got. Yep. Yeah, I mean, for every Ben Rice, there's six Spencer Jones. For real. That's the problem. Actually, I guess I shouldn't even say that. you know they The Yankees have produced one hitter in the last 20 years.
01:10:32
Speaker
One. He was one above average hitter in the last 20 years, not named Aaron Judge. And I could i don't count Aaron Judge v because Aaron Judge has his own hitting coach who teaches a completely different philosophy than whatever trash Yankees are teaching in their system.
01:10:45
Speaker
So the one you're saying is Ben Rice? Correct. Got it. Okay. See, Gary Sanchez was okay. yeah And how long did he last? Which is why the jury's out on Ben Rice as well.
01:10:57
Speaker
Let's not jump to the Ben Rice train yet if we're not going count Gary Sanchez. But the problem with Gary Sanchez is that his bat was not good enough to overcome his ability to catch.
01:11:09
Speaker
Yo, Miguel Enduar had a great year, too, at one point. Oh, God. Yeah, and everybody said, well, where are going to put guy? You can't play in third base because your third baseman's coming back from injury. You can't play him left field. He's not good in the outfield. Let's trade the guy. And they went, no, we're going to hold on to him. And then he completely tanked and fell off a cliff.
01:11:28
Speaker
Like, I'm looking at the season for man to hard. 27 home runs, 92 runs batted in, in one hundred and 149 games. 130 OPS plus. Dang. I mean, he almost won a rookie of the year, and the only reason why he didn't win was because that was Otani's rookie year, wasn't it? Yep.
01:11:43
Speaker
Yep, yeah. mean, that's how good he was. Yeah.
Lineup Issues and Trade Deadline Predictions
01:11:48
Speaker
And Yankees just let him blow it up. It would be a shame if we traded Dominguez, too, before that. No, he can't play the outfield.
01:11:55
Speaker
The problem with Dominguez is that there were always questions to him before he even made it. That, oh, he can't hit left-handed pitching. I can't believe they had him hitting cleanup the other night.
01:12:07
Speaker
Oh, was embarrassing. And Rosario was hitting third. What are talking about? No, that was an embarrassing lineup we saw. Wasn't Volpe fifth? Yes. What are we doing? Who else are you going to play? No, for lineup's bad.
01:12:21
Speaker
I know he's had a bad season, but at that point put Grisham four. At least Grisham can put a ball out of the yard. Yeah, I guess. Hell, have Wells start instead of Sanchez.
01:12:33
Speaker
Put him for. He can put a ball out of the yard when he actually hits the ball. but Yeah, that's ah it might be an uneventful deadline, boys. That's, you know. Yeah, it's going to be a pretty boring one. I'm not expecting much. Just a lot of conversations.
01:12:46
Speaker
Nothing really happening. Yeah, I think you're going to get a couple small moves. you know Some depth hitters, they get moved around you know to some teams. Maybe a pitcher. The guys like down the list will get moved.
01:12:59
Speaker
But i
Freddy Peralta's Future and Episode Conclusion
01:13:00
Speaker
I wouldn't expect any big blockbuster trade. I think the big one will be Freddy Peralta if we even call it a blockbuster with how he's been pitching. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he'll go back to Milwaukee and go right back to his old self.
01:13:11
Speaker
And then he'll make a lot of money. Yeah. Well, maybe. Maybe. That'd be really funny if milwaukee if he goes back to Milwaukee and they give up more assets and then he signs with the Mets and flames out again. Like they just keep turns trading him back. at Yeah.
01:13:27
Speaker
Well, you know, he's going to have to wait. He's going to have to wait an extra year before he can even sign a contract. Oh, yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah. That's really all I had. I mean, we we had a lot of good conversation already. And that wraps up the 1948 episode of Championship or a Bust. Thank you for listening. We will see you next time with 1949. Peace.
01:13:48
Speaker
please