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Is there a gap between field and office personnel? - CRMArch 265
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Why is there a such a distinct separation between field and office staff in CRM? Is it necessary? Does a more holistic approach to staff assignments and project management have the potential to improve staff morale and know-how? We’re referencing a post in the Facebook group, Archaeo Field Techs, on today’s episode.
Transcripts
For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/265
Links
- Archaeo Field Techs group on Facebook (this is a private group)
- RAOS Blog: #99 Leadership
- RAOS Blog: #238 Job Creator or Scary Effing Responsibility
- RAOS Blog: #231 Petty Little Man
- RAOS Blog: #276 Perspective
- CRM Arch Episode: Leadership with Author Vishal Agarwal - Ep149
- CRM Arch Episode: Networking and Leadership - Episode 43
- CRM Arch Episode: CRM Firm Owner Chandler Herson - Episode 55
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
Episode 265 Overview: Office vs. Field Disconnect
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 265 for May 31st, 2023. I'm your host, Chris Webster. On today's show, we talk about whether people sitting in the office are out of touch with the people in the field. So turn off your air conditioning and solidarity with your field crews because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
Host Introductions and Locations
00:00:51
Speaker
Welcome to the show, everyone. We had a good pre-show, so we're all jazzed up for this. But joining me today is Heather in Southern California. Hey, guys, what's up? That was Heather in Southern California. You went out. You went out. We couldn't hear you. And I guess. Hi, everybody. All right. And then Andrew also in Southern California. Hey, guys, how's it going? He's getting double your time, Chris. Goodbye, everyone.
00:01:20
Speaker
That's it for Doug. I swear we haven't been drinking. It's eight o'clock in the morning here on the west coast of the United States. Doug may have been, but we, it's like almost five here. So I know, right? So, and I'm actually in the central coast and one of our favorite areas, San Luis Obispo,
San Luis Obispo Experience
00:01:37
Speaker
California. It's, it's just, I don't know. It's awesome up here. Anytime it's hot anywhere else, it's like 65 here and it's just, I don't know. It's amazing.
00:01:45
Speaker
I love the area. We did some wine tasting in the Edna Valley region yesterday and just some, some really good stuff. And yeah, it's a, it's a fun place to be, but, uh, you know, it's not a fun place to be sometimes Facebook. And I want to talk about this because we'll get to the topic for today, which is Heather's topic. And she saw a post in one of the groups that we reference all the time and we'll talk
Negativity in Archaeology Groups
00:02:07
Speaker
about it here. But in, in discussing this in the pre-show,
00:02:10
Speaker
Doug actually mentioned that he's kind of left Facebook, not left, he's still there, but stopped kind of paying attention to it and paying attention to things like Archeo Field Text because of some of the comments and a little bit of the toxicity that can happen in the comments sections and even in some of the posts, to be honest. But a lot of the posts that are bad get moderated. And in fact, some of the comments get moderated. I was mentioning I'm a moderator of the Archeo Field Text group on Facebook. And if you're not part of that, you can join it. I will tell you right now, if you answer the three questions, which are very simple,
00:02:40
Speaker
you'll get in right away. If you don't answer the questions, I have to moderate you or one of the other two moderators. And if I look at your Facebook profile and it's completely locked down and I can't even tell you're an archeologist, then I hit the decline button and you don't come in, right? If you bring somebody else in and you recommend them to the group, if they don't see that and then go answer the questions, I have to do the same thing and go see if they're actually an archeologist by their Facebook profile. Most people have that locked down and rightly so probably, but it means I can't let you in. So I'm just, I'm just saying right there. If you want to come in, answer the questions and it lets you in right away.
00:03:10
Speaker
You don't have to be moderated. But the point is, there's a lot of stuff over there that's total garbage, right? And it's not anybody's fault. It's just how people are. And I feel like it's the responsibility of people who are, I don't know, who've been doing this for a little while, who have some insight to really kind of cut through the crap over there and help people out because that's what they're ultimately asking for.
00:03:31
Speaker
I mean, people mostly come in there and say, I'm struggling with this or I want this. And you're going to get 85 comments and 40 of them are going to be jackass old people that are just like, or cynical people that are just like, Oh, why are you even in this field? You should get out, you know, you should go, you know, work a target.
00:03:49
Speaker
I don't know. They're going to say stuff like that. And I feel like it's the responsibility of everybody else to say, no, I mean, come on, this is, this is the way it is. Here's some good resources. There's actually cool people here. And, and this is a, this is a good thing to do with your life, you know? And cause if, if all the people who actually think that way get out of it, the 2,500 plus members that are over in that group,
00:04:10
Speaker
are just going to have no support. I mean, they're literally just going to have no support. And I don't think that's good for the world either, right? If we want more people in this field and we want them to succeed, then that's the place where they're at. There's no other social media venue where they're doing that kind of thing. Literally none. Maybe Mastodon, but who knows about Mastodon? It's too chaotic over there.
00:04:30
Speaker
maybe Twitter, but it's also chaotic over there. It's literally no other social media platform aside from maybe LinkedIn, which also nobody's using like this, where you can have a group and you can ask a question of your peers and get these sorts of responses and answers. Because I mean, some of them are really good. So I had to kind of soapbox that just a little bit because
00:04:49
Speaker
Doug, I think you have valuable insights to tell to people. And if you could just cut through the BS and ignore the acidic comments that are over there and just put down your own insights and link to some of your great blog posts and some of the videos up on recording archaeology and some of the resources that you have, that could cut through some of the shit, don't you think?
Handling Misinformation on Social Media
00:05:08
Speaker
Well, so this is a slightly different context than what we were discussing, like,
00:05:13
Speaker
pre-podcast. I'm slightly torn in that I do appreciate that some people go there to ask questions, but I do find that, and this is UK and North American archeology groups, there's just a horrendous amount of stuff out there that's
00:05:44
Speaker
it's quite a waste of time. And also like some of those questions, people like could have dropped that into Google first and got like a bunch of resources that would have answered their question. In fact, of like most of, most of what I hate, and this is not everything that's on there, probably like 95% of it. No, I'll say like 90% of it could just been simply answered by Googling.
00:06:13
Speaker
instead of like trying to take up other people's time. Sure. It's the same. And a lot of times it's the same questions. You know, year after year, you see the same ones come up. Um, and like the same answers, which is usually like, Hey, have you heard of Chris Webster's book on like how to survive archeology? Go check it out. What you're asking about. Literally that post has never happened.
00:06:45
Speaker
That's not true. I've seen that. I've seen it happen. Chris at least Bill's done it. I've seen filter. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. So like there's this stuff like that. And then I just like the worst is like probably the other five, 10% is it's just people with like, we'll put out opinions and they're the worst informed opinions ever.
00:07:11
Speaker
Like I, it's just such a, such a time sink and that like, I'm just thinking of stuff I've had to like go and correct. It'll be like, yo, xenophobic racist stuff on like, uh, archeologists getting visas to work in a country and like someone will go off on a rant about like how horrible it is. They're using it to keep, keep jobs down, you know, keep wages down, yada, yada. And you're like, so you end up spending like two hours debunking this and this closed group.
00:07:42
Speaker
that honestly, if the person had just like, done even the most basic of research, basic like, I'm sorry, I'm exasperated on like, how, how like, I'm pretty sure everyone like survived university googling things, like how they couldn't just like,
00:08:01
Speaker
Google before you talk, I don't know, Google for your post. Should be like a rule on like all those groups. I just, that's where I hate, like I've dropped off because it's the same thing. And it's, and it also, it gives the same, same level of voice. And I'm not saying like, this is, there's trade-offs on this, but like the stupidest voice has the same reach. Probably actually because of algorithms, the stupidest, most ignorant, most hateful voice,
00:08:31
Speaker
will have 10 times, 20 times the reach than the person who might actually be an expert in whatever this question is, or the person who actually like went and spent two minutes Googling it or like have information. And that's, it's what I just hate is like, almost all those groups just turn into, like, if you see any of the posts in your feeds or anything, it's because it's turned into some sort of hate fest because someone said something really, really stupid.
00:08:57
Speaker
And then the algorithm amplifies it. And then lots of people say equally stupid things on it. I just, I find it as a time waste. There you go, Chris. I just, it's a time sink of like my time when 90% of it could have been fixed with Google.
00:09:16
Speaker
Yeah. Watch this, Chris. Guess what? Everyone record this at this moment. I'm going to agree with Doug a hundred percent. Oh, yeah. It hurts. I know. I know.
00:09:32
Speaker
I think I might be having a heart attack, but I'm not sure if we could just call 911. But yeah, man, I find exactly the same thing. I get no joy out of social media. I just don't like that's just the honest truth. And I never post on Facebook. I like never post on Twitter. I find all those places just quicksand.
00:09:55
Speaker
you know where you can't do like Chris you know what you what you said that oh we should just cut through you know we should just magically cut through it never works if you put one line out there like well guys actually how this works is if you do this you get 50 people dog pile on you oh well i guess how do you know college professor you know
00:10:17
Speaker
Whatever you can just it's like a pointless waste of time. So the one thing that I do that to kind of circumvent, that's really why I have my YouTube channel, because in YouTube, I can make a product and like blast it out. And then I can deal with the comments in that world, which usually aren't nearly as just waste of time, joyless that they are in the other social media world. But that's that's my experience. Sure.
00:10:49
Speaker
I actually would say I agree with Doug and Andrew as well. However, however,
00:10:56
Speaker
It's so complicated because I definitely see Chris aside. In fact, I agree with Chris as well. The problem is that as people who have, I think, a greater perspective, because we've seen things from so many different angles and because we have a platform to talk about it, I don't ever comment. Well, I shouldn't say ever, but rarely do I ever, ever comment in these
00:11:26
Speaker
certain pages for archaeology for the same reasons that Andrew was just saying. And Doug, they just dogpile on you and then you become the evil villain or whatever. And nobody wants to listen anyway. But I would say that for as many people as post,
00:11:42
Speaker
I would say there's probably three times as many people that are reading and are looking and are learning. So that's where, for me, I think that we need to offer other media options, just like Andrew was saying, the YouTube, the Archeo Podcast Network, because what's sad is that new people that are entering the field are watching and reading this crap.
00:12:08
Speaker
And some of it is just like so, we were talking about before we started, virtue signaling, all this stuff to, they're more, much more concerned about everybody hearing them than they are about actually having some kind of a crowdsourced, let's learn from each other opportunity. That's not where they're going. So true.
00:12:31
Speaker
disgusting, actually, it's really, it's very frustrating.
Impact of Social Media on New Professionals
00:12:34
Speaker
And then what they do is they're putting these false narratives out there for new people in the field. And I think another option is just exactly what Andrew and Doug and Bill do is like getting them right at the beginning in their career at the university level, teaching people that this is not, this is not correct. And on top of that, the people that are on social media, uh,
00:12:56
Speaker
I think the younger ones are so savvy to some of this. So if they're a person who really just wants to know the truth, I think they see through that BS. But, you know, I guess probably all this just argues why it's a time suck and it's not productive. But I do think we do look at it because it's really good opportunity to pull information for
00:13:22
Speaker
you know, looking at podcast topics and doing things that are relevant that people are talking about.
Need for Better Media in Archaeology
00:13:28
Speaker
And so that's why I look at it. I don't really comment. Okay. I mean, those are all definitely valid opinions and we're going to end this segment actually real shortly here. Cause we're not going to spend the whole time talking about this, but I will just say, I actually agree with you guys as well. There is a, it is really bad over there. And I actually mostly don't even comment on archaeo field tech stuff either. I,
00:13:49
Speaker
But that's for me with Facebook posts. When I get to a Facebook post, I'm not on Facebook all the time. So when I see it, even in some of the RVing groups we're in and the group specializing in the RV we have, if I see somebody ask a question and it's already got 70 comments, what am I going to contribute? You know what I mean? Yeah, right. Or they won't even see it.
00:14:09
Speaker
Right. Right. But if I see a comment that has like, or a question or something that has like no comments or a couple, then I might jump in and be like, okay, well, you know, here's, here's what I think about that. But that being said, I think it is still, it is still valuable for people who, even if you don't comment, if you just read some of this stuff and you say, you know what, that is bad. That is negative for the field and report the comment to the admins because not only, not enough people are doing that. And if the admins look at it and say, yeah, that is totally false information and we're going to
00:14:38
Speaker
going to get rid of that. This isn't a democracy, right? This is a group run by three people and we can bring in other people. It was started by, I don't even know who started it, to be honest with you, but it was, there's three admins now and we have a group chat and we talk about everything that we take out of there. Not one of us makes that decision. So it's just how it is in that group. But I still think that ignoring the fact that so many people use this as a resource for
00:15:01
Speaker
you know, trying to improve how they work in the field and trying to cut through the crap, even though they probably could have googled it. But the problem is there's not enough resources out there to actually Google for some of this stuff. You know, how many people have written a blog post about the best field boats to use in the southeast? Probably not that many. Most of that information's here on Arcio Field Techs. So, you know, it's just, uh, I don't know. It's not that, it's not that big. I know there's some other comments out there, guys, but we really have to end this cut segment and move on to the next one. If we want to keep this going, we can, but otherwise we'll be back in a minute.
00:15:30
Speaker
Welcome back to the Serum archaeology podcast episode 265. And you know, we were only intending to talk about the toxicity of Facebook posts for a little while, but we spent a whole second now where we said most of the hosts were like, I don't go in there and give my opinions. We're going to do that exact thing right now. So we're going to talk about a post that was in, that was in archaeo field texts. Um, some of us saw it and.
00:15:51
Speaker
it was just a, it was actually fairly recent. I don't know. It wasn't within the last few weeks, I think. And you have the ability on Facebook. Oh yeah. Yeah. You have the ability on Facebook now in private groups, which kind of shocks me. If the group is private, you wouldn't think this would be an option, but you have the ability for the last like
00:16:08
Speaker
I don't know, four or five months to post anonymously and anybody can do it, right? And here's the thing, the anonymous posts have to be approved by moderators. I don't know if you knew that, but if somebody decides to post anonymously, we get to read it first and say, okay, yeah, they can post this anonymously. So I think if somebody tries to post a bunch of hate speech anonymously and they don't want to be crucified for it, then obviously we're not going to let that through, right? So at least there is some moderation there, but I still don't understand why you would post anonymously in a private group. And I was wrong too.
00:16:37
Speaker
With the number of people in this group, I said 2,500. I hadn't looked at it in a while. There's over 4,000 people in this group. So a lot of them probably aren't in there anymore. I think Doug's child is in this group as well. I'm not really sure. That was a cute little scream.
00:16:54
Speaker
I think that was Doug. I'll try to mute it. She's around. She'd like to join the podcast. I told her she needs to be a little bit older. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Chris, do you actually see who's posting or has it just come through as anonymous, like anonymous to you? For a very short period of time, it came in as an anonymous test too, but I actually just noticed on the last one that I approved that I can see who's posting it.
00:17:19
Speaker
So yeah, so it's not anonymous to the moderators. Yeah. Sorry. The only time I think that that is fair is if somebody's asking a question that could put their
Anonymous Posting in Archaeo Field Techs
00:17:33
Speaker
job in jeopardy and, and it is a legitimate question and they really are looking for help, you know, from the, from the hive, right? That's 4,000 people. That's a lot of people that can give you some input.
00:17:45
Speaker
Yeah. The thing people need to remember too while we're getting ready to jump right into this is it's not just archaeo-field text. The group is intended to be field technicians in archaeology. It was started in California, so a lot of California archaeologists were in there first, but now it's all over the country.
00:18:03
Speaker
And it's not just field techs. There's a lot of company PIs that are in there. Heather, you're one of them. I mean, I'm one of them for that matter. So there's a lot of people. Now, granted people come up in their career, right? So they may have started in the group as a field tech. It's been around for a long time and now they're not anymore. But I know for a fact that I've had
00:18:23
Speaker
People that I know that run companies or that are PIs of companies actually messaged me privately and said, you know, can I join this group and post job posts and stuff over there? And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I guess if people don't like it, they'll moderate it. They'll report it. So, you know, I try not to moderate that kind of stuff. And then the other moderators don't either. So we'll basically let anybody who's in archaeology in. So it's kind of needs to be renamed, to be honest with you. It's no longer really archaeo field text. It's archaeologists and mostly North American archaeologists. So
00:18:52
Speaker
Anyway, with that being said, there was a post that we wanted to give our opinions on that Heather noticed. And she's going to paraphrase that for us right now. So point paraphrase, can I just read it? You can just read it if you want. It was posted anonymously. So yeah, it doesn't matter who you can't tell who did it.
Field to Office Transition Concerns
00:19:13
Speaker
So yeah.
00:19:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's important to understanding the reason why I want to respond the way I want to respond and why I think it was a good inspiration for this topic. So here it goes.
00:19:26
Speaker
from an anonymous member in Archeo Field Text. Anybody else move from the field to crew managing in a Cushing office and have intense guilt? I'm struggling with it right now as summer is coming up and my office temperature doesn't change, but outside where my crews are definitely is.
00:19:47
Speaker
The last thing I want to become is like some of my past PIs where they didn't understand or care about outdoor conditions and how brutal they can be. Close quote. Right. Right. So, you know, I've got lots of feelings about this and it could be that this person is just new to PI, quote unquote, to being a principal investigator.
Field vs. Office Divide in Archaeology
00:20:15
Speaker
And I don't know, I mean, you go into different areas of the country and the definition of principal investigator is different. That's another topic I was considering talking about is the titles that people have. And for those that are new in the business, just so you know, titles really mean nothing in this business, except for when you have a permit and they have a requirement for what you call yourself. And if you meet their
00:20:44
Speaker
their definition of what that title or what that role is. So a principal investigator could be a senior archeologist, could be a lead, project lead, that sort of thing.
00:20:58
Speaker
You know, everybody can, they can post what they want. I just, I had a little trouble with this post because personally, I think that it continues to promote exactly what this anonymous poster is saying they're trying to avoid, which is this concept that principal investigators are lofty sitting in a cushy office.
00:21:19
Speaker
with no challenges whatsoever. Meanwhile, their field crew is sweating and walking around slugging 100-pound loads through a wilderness in 125-degree heat. I'm exaggerating.
00:21:39
Speaker
That isn't anything I've ever seen. I haven't seen it. And the fact that this is, it's assuming that this is the norm. And a lot of these comments, although there's some people that push back, a lot of these comments say the same thing. They're just perpetuating this, this narrative that, you know, PIs and project managers have no feeling or thought or consideration of proof conditions and
00:22:08
Speaker
And basically the crew, they're the innocent bystanders that have no agency in their own in their own life. They're the victims. So it just it kind of bothered me. But, you know, I'm not going to assume this person's purpose. I can't. But I do think that the message it gives is is not good. And it's not good for our, you know, for our discipline for CRM, because it's just simply not true.
00:22:36
Speaker
I think I'm going to stop there and let people chime in and then we can move on. Yeah, I mean.
Addressing Management Generalizations
00:22:44
Speaker
I, every time I see something like this where somebody's talking about, you know, well, I don't want to be like one of those people that does this thing. Uh, and they make this generalization about generally about a group of people. Right. Uh, cause you, you always hear things about, Oh, there's the, there's the managers that always did this. There's the company owners that always did this. And to be honest, it's never the field texts that did this. It's always the, the people in the upper parts that did this. Right. But it's.
00:23:08
Speaker
It's always curious to me because it's like, well, first off, you know, I, I'm, I, this is probably why I've been fired from several jobs, but I'm like, why don't you just name these people and, and publicly shame them if they're actually doing such shitty things for archeology, right? Like I really do think that if we want to make the world a better place, then, you know, we should meet to them out of archeology.
00:23:28
Speaker
if that's what you really, really want, then stop just complaining about it and generalizing and let's fix the problem. You know what I mean? So there's that little aspect of it first. But the other thing is, I mean, who actually is so out of touch that they think that everybody above them thinks that
00:23:43
Speaker
they've forgotten what the field is like. It's just that they have other concerns pretty much like you did Heather. I mean, you, you can't say, well, we're not going to go in the work in that area because you know, it's, it's too hard. You know, we're just not going to do it, but you do that. If you do that field text, you're not going to have a job. I mean, it's real simple. Yeah. We can't make, we're in this discipline. We know what we got into. There are OSHA rules out there.
00:24:10
Speaker
And is there no one that's not following OSHA? Of course not. There's always bad apples, right? But to assume that it's across the board, which is definitely what people act like on some of these forums, is that it's across the board. It's not. There's laws, regulations. I've worked for lots of companies. I've never seen that.
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah. There's pathways for you to approach people when those laws and regulations are not being followed. There's, you know, there's the Shippo, there's RPA, there's whatever agency you're working for. There's the better business bureau. There's, there's all kinds of places. Now it's hard. You got to, you actually got to think about doing these resources for the company. Yeah. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. So there's pathways for you to deal with that. Andrew.
00:24:56
Speaker
Well, I'm going to be doing the rest of this podcast anonymously. So if you guys could just, you know, respect me, that's no problem. So I would say, man, when I hear this kind of stuff, I'm like, OK, then why don't you just turn off the air conditioning and then like keep doing your job if you're so like beaten down by the weight of possibly trying to be this cliche that you've like constructed in your own mind. It's like.
00:25:26
Speaker
stop it, stop it, and stop it. That's why I'm doing this podcast anonymously, by the way. This kind of stuff, it drives me nuts. And I will say, as an aside, I wouldn't even be this harsh
00:25:42
Speaker
If we knew the person's name, you know, it's because it's anonymous, because I don't believe in like dog piling on somebody in any kind of media. Right. So I'm not here to like make the person overtly feel bad. So I I feel OK being blunt.
00:25:58
Speaker
you know, about this. But that's just what I would say. I'm like, Come on, I agree with you guys. You know, I agree with everything Heather just said. I mean, it's, it's part of the job. It's not that the PIs are sitting on their throne in their castle, you know, while the serfs are out there doing all the manual labor all day and night. It's much more complex. It's much more nuanced. And
00:26:22
Speaker
The only way that I would in a backwards way defend them is maybe they truly don't know this. You know, maybe they don't know the positions and stuff. I'll say that when I first started CRM, I had no guidance in terms of the possible roles in CRM, how me as a field tech could ever go into the quote unquote office.
00:26:46
Speaker
I didn't understand any of that. Nobody ever told me that there were like different positions, you know, and what the latter was like of success in this world. Nobody told me any of that. So I can feel a little for the person in terms of if they're totally ignorant about that stuff like I was. But even with that said, they've still gone a little too far over the top. Doug. So yeah, man, like actually.
00:27:13
Speaker
It moves on nicely from Andrew's thing. I think actually this is, this slightly goes back to, I'll pull in our first segment with this segment. One of the problems also with like the social media things is that it's highly biased. When you see questions like this or people's experiences, you get a very biased, a very one-sided sort of view. So like this person may
00:27:41
Speaker
be thinking that this, this might be their only experience as Andrew was saying. And so to them, I mean, this is what they think archeology is. I mean, was it not last year, uh, Louisiana field tech died from stroke. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:06
Speaker
So I mean, like there, this is one view, but I do find this is like, again, one of the issues with sort of the social media is that any of those groups are self-selecting and biased in a way. And it, a lot of the groups will come off with a sort of view and present as like, Oh, this is the archeo field text. You're going to get a range of views about different things and it'll be helpful, but actually you're not. So like, if you saw a lot of people agreeing with this post,
00:28:37
Speaker
I'll be honest, guys, it's been a while since I've been on Facebook, so I didn't go and check it out. But if you're seeing a lot of people agree with it, yes, that might be it, but it's probably a biased sample. This is the experience, and that's just it. That's why dogpiling happens so easily, because if you were to give an alternative view of what's happening, that's not the view of that biased sampling, and they are absolutely going to hate you.
00:29:05
Speaker
for giving a different view because it's not what they're used to. Yeah. Well, so the thing is, is that we call it virtue signaling, right? When somebody is saying that this is the purpose of the post, but it really smacks of not. So let's look at this post and then we can move on to the next segment. But specifically when
00:29:30
Speaker
If this person came on and they were trying to, okay, how can I improve my, like, are you really posting because you truly feel guilt? Are you really sitting in your office and feeling guilty? If that was the case, like if you really felt that way, I just, I question it. Not that it's my place.
00:29:51
Speaker
but I can say what I want. If your intent is for this not to be the case, for the people in the crew to not be under those kinds of conditions, honestly, if you came from that perspective and you don't want to have those kinds of conditions for your crew, just
00:30:11
Speaker
make sure that doesn't happen. And actually, you see some responses like that, a response to this post, quite a few of them actually. But if you really are looking for options to make sure that your crew doesn't have these issues, then maybe that's your question, right? And so
00:30:31
Speaker
But it's Facebook and people can post what they want to post. And my main thing and the reason I want it this more just I didn't want to call out. It wasn't calling somebody out for posting something like this. It just was an inspiration for the topic of how can we close the gap between field and office? And that's what we're going to tackle in the next segment. Sounds good. We'll be back in a minute.
00:30:57
Speaker
Welcome back to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 265. We're wrapping up this topic on closing that gap between field personnel and office personnel. And especially when you transition from that, I do got to mention just a couple of things though. There's like 32 comments as of May 21st, when we're recording this, there's like 32 comments on this post. And I would honestly say that 95% of them are largely
00:31:20
Speaker
positive as far as not positive that they're positive comments, but positive as though they're, they're answering the question in a way that I think might help the poster. You know what I mean? Some of them get over it, you'll be fine. And some of them are like, well, you're recognizing this and that's the first step to not doing what your superiors have done in the past and things like that.
Managerial Responsibilities in Archaeology
00:31:39
Speaker
A few people that are posting some snarky responses, which you could, you can expect, right? And then Bill, I'll say this cause he would have said it on the podcast if he was able to make it today, but his response was no.
00:31:50
Speaker
just no. And that's true. Like maybe you just, you come from one spot, you come into the next spot and you have different responsibilities and you just have different things to worry about and think about. Not that you're not thinking about the field crew, but you know, you're not going to send them into a, you know, a smoking volcanic caldera, right? I mean, you're gonna, you're still gonna be conscious of that, but you're also, you're also relying on the people that are between you and the field crew, like the field directors and the, um, you know, the project managers, if you're a PI and the crew chiefs.
00:32:19
Speaker
to have that sort of responsibility. So anyway, that's my little rant on that. Okay. So I want, we only have a few minutes to actually really tackle this subject. I think we'll do a high level. So this concept that there's this huge gap between field and office, I do think that sometimes that is the case because
Pay Differences: Budget and Skillset
00:32:42
Speaker
you may have, let's say, companies that are doing work away from their corporate office. So, their PIs or their senior archaeologists, the people, the project managers who are running the actual project or who have, yeah, running the project on a higher level, are in another state and the crew
00:33:02
Speaker
you know, there's just separation, actual physical separation, which then leads to an actual gap in skills or not skills, sorry, tasks. So, but generally I don't think that that's the case most of the time. And so are there separations between field and an office? Certainly there are, but I wanted to argue for the fact that I personally think that that's not the best avenue. And I think sometimes people do it because it's just the easier.
00:33:32
Speaker
or that's just the way that it's always been. There are some explanations that I want to give from a management perspective that people may not consider if they're in the field. One thing is that in the field,
00:33:46
Speaker
It requires a lot of people, right? A lot more people than it does in the office to write things up, even to do the analysis, the lab analysis. It always takes many more people to actually get the field work done.
00:34:02
Speaker
When you're looking at budgets and as much as people say, you know what the hell with a budget, you should pay people this much and they should be paid the same amount as the people that are in the office and that's not the way it goes. And if we went that way or if your company went that way, they would not have work and therefore the employees don't have work.
00:34:21
Speaker
Right. So we have to look at this and have some balance here. And one thing is, is that when you, the more people that require are required for a task, the less money that those people that are conducting that task are going to make because you have, you're spending so much. I mean, that's not a rule across the board, but generally it is. Right. So you need a lot more people to survey and it's a combination of how many people are dipping into that budget and
00:34:51
Speaker
the skill set that it requires to accomplish that task. So if you have somebody who has a very refined skill set, a skill set that not many people have and requires certain level of education and there are tasks like that, I don't care what people say, there are tasks like that,
00:35:13
Speaker
then those people are going to get paid more. They're just going to. And the people in the crew surveying, if it doesn't require a very specific task like GPR and things like that, they're going to get paid less. And if you want to make more at a job, then you're going to have to step outside of 100% in the field. You'll never cross that barrier if you are in the field 100% of the time.
00:35:39
Speaker
You need to have other skillsets. Now, it doesn't mean that a project manager can't be in the field, but that's the way life works. I mean, as you build up your knowledge and your skillset, you get paid more money. That's the way it works.
00:35:54
Speaker
You know, that one thing that people need to understand, you know, I've had people come to me and they're like, I need to make more money. And I, I'm sympathetic to that. And I'm, I always encourage them, open up your skill set, step outside the field, because you can have, you know, I've seen people that are so skilled, but they're not using the skills. So it's not just about, I have the skills. You have to be in a role where you're using the skills. So you have somebody who has an MA, they have a ton of skills,
00:36:21
Speaker
yet they only want to be in the field. Well, then you're only going to get paid a certain amount. That's just the way it works. So, um, you're not using the skills that you have and therefore you're not going to get paid. So not only do you have to have the skills, but you have to be able to be in a role that you're using the skills if you want to increase your pay. So
00:36:39
Speaker
You know, I would say the with with that stuff. I mean, I agree with you, obviously, Heather. But I think one of the problems, like I touched on a little bit before, is just the ignorance of the actual positions. You know, like I never knew that stuff. And in my experience, CRM firms were pretty poor at telling us
00:36:59
Speaker
What is actually out there? What does their company offer? I would love if all CRM firms attention, all CRM firms, if you could just have a single piece of paper that lists the actual positions from like basic field tech to like field supervisor to senior archeologist, whatever they are, list them all out.
00:37:23
Speaker
list the minimum qualifications for each one. So me as a new archaeologist, I could look at that sheet of paper and go, oh, I could move up if I get this skill set. You know, I've never seen one of those in my life. And well, we have one. My company has one. We do have that now. Is it easy? I will say to
00:37:46
Speaker
Is it easy to find? Is it obvious or is it buried in like the new employee handbook? You know, I want it to be like front and center. Yeah. And you know what the thing is sometimes exactly what you're saying. If you don't know to ask, you're not going to get it. Right. And so, yeah. But if there's a difference, if you're as needed, it's not offered to you.
00:38:06
Speaker
Not that it's not open to you, it's just not something that's offered to you. If you are a part-time or full-time employee, yes, every single one knows about it because we talk about it at your mid-year and end-year review, or we bring it up
00:38:22
Speaker
over the year if you're a good manager. So yeah, we do have that. We have a career pathing is what we call it and very specific rubric. It's a table and there's a rubric, but you're expected. If you want to move up, these are the skills that you need to acquire in order to move up.
00:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's, that's really, really cool. Cause I found in teaching the CRM class that I just finished, it was really hard for me to find a typical list, you know, of what the positions in a CRM firm actually are. And I think that also goes to CRM firms themselves. There's some more larger ones that'll have these positions, but then the smaller firms will just be like, yeah, we just hire some people and they work with us and you know, like companies that are run by a single person. So there is variety in company size.
00:39:09
Speaker
society for California archeology actually has something like that. And what's a problem is the office of historic preservation is kind of stepped away from having these specific criteria for different levels. They only have, they have just like the bare minimum. You're either this or that. And maybe that's part what's contributing to this concept of having this huge gap between crew and PI or senior archeologist. Doug, did you have something you wanted to say?
00:39:36
Speaker
It was, it was actually to follow on that and you guys sort of touched on it. Is that like, I think the poster and also us are making assumptions about there being a difference between office and field. And as Andrew had mentioned, a lot of the smaller firms, which, you know, there's several hundred, I think at one cat, there's over a thousand quote unquote firms, which a lot of those are just like one or two people, or they bring people on as is.
00:40:05
Speaker
And like, there's such a huge range and like, Andrew, actually it's a huge problem. It's like, like when I do that job stuff and looking at wages, it's actually a big problem. Cause I kinda, I've created categories and we stuff people into those categories because they're close, but close is not the same. And like, there's not one universal, like that person talking, like we're kind of assuming that, you know,
00:40:31
Speaker
all companies, you become an office person, you do nothing but the office, but not all companies are like that or all organizations. And there's a huge mix and a huge range. And while I appreciate a document would be amazing, you're probably going to end up with a thousand firms, 1,500 different documents, just because it's archaeologists.
00:41:04
Speaker
weren't you saying, I thought, I assumed that what you were talking about is that each company has that. So if each company has that, then you know how the structure works in that company. And I think that's why the Office of Historic Preservation has not provided something like that for exactly what Doug is saying, is that it would be impossible to get something that covers everything. But I do think it's possible on a company level for companies to be transparent in what is available out there.
00:41:23
Speaker
Like there's no, I totally appreciate what you're saying. It's true, but I would rather have that than nothing because I was totally in the dark.
00:41:34
Speaker
my perspective and how we work on the team that I manage.
00:41:41
Speaker
I truly believe that the best way to train and bring up people and also give them a perspective and let them enjoy what they're doing is to have a combination of crew of tasks for everybody that works on the team. There are people that are strictly, Heather, I really don't want to do anything but be in the field. Okay. Well, that's fine. And I respect that.
00:42:05
Speaker
But I always encourage people to have a varied skill set. And I like them to follow. I like us as a team to follow a project from start to finish. So they're part of the process. And in fact, when there's questions, let's say the team were starting a project and the team says, Heather, are we doing this, this and this? And I'm like, it's in the proposal.
00:42:27
Speaker
So from the very beginning, they're grabbing that proposal. They're looking at the proposal and the proposal says, okay, this is our radio, our record search radius. This is, you know, what the transects are for the survey. This is what we can expect. And so from the very beginning, they get this perspective of what, what is
00:42:46
Speaker
you know, what is entailed for this project. And if somebody is writing a proposal that isn't just cookie cutter and, you know, but actually is customized to the project, then that's a good first start for people that are in the crew. Then the next thing would be the research design and then, you know, moving throughout the project and then they do the field work. I think the best people for writing up field work
00:43:10
Speaker
are for writing up that section and all the field work and the environment are the people that were in the field. That's just the best way. So from my personal perspective, so then that allows not only is that a give a better perspective and you don't have gaps in your report where people in the office are writing and have no idea what the field looked like.
00:43:31
Speaker
I mean, they could have looked at it on Google Earth. It still doesn't give you a really good idea of what was out there. So having people be a part of a project from start to finish not only provides a better report, it gives perspective to everybody that's on the team. It helps them understand why we do what we do. And it also allows them to look forward and say, oh, you know what? This is something maybe I would like to do, just like what Andrew was saying. It gives them
00:44:00
Speaker
window into other avenues for their career in archaeology. I think what we're coming on to is that communication is probably key. The issue of this thing is probably a level of communication. As we've talked about, a lot of companies are different. You're going to have different aspects that's going to change. We're also assuming that a company stays the same and that your job stays the same. You could have the same job title.
00:44:29
Speaker
and be doing something very different than what you did five years before, just because companies grow, the sector changes, life moves on. I think if we were to go back to this top level, you know, this communication between, or this issue of, you know, in the office versus field staff, I think what probably this person's, the heart of the problem is actually just poor communication or poor leadership.
Bridging Field and Office Communication
00:44:57
Speaker
And if they've had
00:44:59
Speaker
this view that the people in the office just don't care and stuff. I think they're probably not having what you've just described, Heather, about how you communicate the entire project to everyone and that the idea that even if it's not necessarily totally relevant to what you're doing, you have an overview of a project and that helps. I suspect really if we were to suggest one solution to this problem is it's actually just probably more internal communication
00:45:29
Speaker
within organizations or companies or whatever you want to call it to would probably help alleviate a lot of these problems. I totally agree with you, Doug. And now I've agreed with you so many times on this podcast, Doug, that I'm just I'm a little lightheaded.
00:45:47
Speaker
Oh, man. You should really go to your doctor, Andrew, and check to see if that heart right there, that memory you're doing is irregular heartbeats. To wrap this up, if this individual, anonymous individual, was in front of me, I would
00:46:05
Speaker
Personally, I just think, you know, exactly what a lot of the posters or responders said was, you know, if you see an issue, then do what you have to do to make it different. I mean, that's where you should look at it and say, you know, like, here's my opportunity to make it different. If you really, truly had nothing but negative experiences in the field and you felt that your past PIs
00:46:28
Speaker
we're abusive, well then don't be that and move on because that's the best way to change the dynamic across the board and you can only control what you can control. So control your own little world, make that piece of life better for yourself and others.
00:46:44
Speaker
And there's your answer. Last two seconds, it's somewhat not related at all. It's just like, we'd use the term virtual singling a couple of times and I prefer the term mooning because I prefer it's like, it's people are like, wait, mooning. I'm like, yeah, stop mooning. They're like, what do you mean? I'm like, you know, showing the world that you're an ass. I find most of that virtual singling stuff is more about like just showing the world that you're an ass. Nice.
00:47:10
Speaker
Okay. Well with that, I have included a lot of resources and to be honest, the resources I have access to, which are from the blog that I used to write. I had a lot of posts actually about leadership and different things when I started my own company and that journey that I went through doing that and some of the things that I encountered. And then also I found three CRM archeology episodes that I might, I think might actually be a little bit helpful if
00:47:35
Speaker
some of our hosts have other references they want to drop into our show notes then they'll do that otherwise there's a lot of really good stuff there including a link to the archaeo field text group on facebook if you are not in there and don't know how to search you can just click right here and it'll take you straight there so with that i think we'll end this episode and you know keep posting over there we always ask people to send in comments or sending questions really and things they want to learn and you know we might get
00:47:59
Speaker
one every month or a couple of months or something like that. It's not really that much, which I totally understand. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I literally never respond to anything because I'm driving or I'm doing something I just forget. So I don't begrudge anybody that. But keep in mind, we are watching some of these other resources, and we like using them for starting discussions like this one. So if that's how you want to do it, you can even tag us in a post if you want us to maybe see something more specifically if we're in the same group that you are. Otherwise,
00:48:27
Speaker
We're paying attention and we will see you next time.
00:48:34
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions.
00:49:04
Speaker
We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. Bye everyone. See you guys next time. Hi everyone. Okay then. Bye.
00:49:31
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.