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Beyond the Body: Forensic Nurses in Death Investigation (Episode 8)
6 Plays4 days ago
Content warning: This episode discusses death investigation, sudden and unexpected death, and the medical, legal, and systemic realities of how deaths are examined in Canada.
Death investigation is not just the work of coroners and pathologists. Across Canada, forensic nurses bring clinical insight, trauma-informed practice, and a holistic understanding of the person behind the case and yet they remain largely invisible in this space.
In this episode of Beyond the Rape Kit: Canada's Forensic Frontline, we sit down with CFNA President Liz Louden, a forensic nurse with extensive experience in death investigation. Together, we unpack what death investigation means in the Canadian context, how coroner and medical examiner systems differ across provinces, which deaths are reportable and why, and what nurses bring to this work that other disciplines do not. We also explore forensic nursing roles in MAID deaths and why this career pathway remains underutilized.
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Transcript
Introduction to Beyond the Rape Kit
00:00:07
Speaker
This is not just another medical podcast or true crime series. This is the voice of forensic nursing in Canada. This is Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline.
00:00:20
Speaker
We're the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association. We're pulling back the curtain on what really happens when trauma meets healthcare, when survivors seek justice, and when nurses stand at the front lines of both.
00:00:32
Speaker
Follow us today Spotify, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Blue Or check us out on the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association website.
The Role of Forensic Nurses in Death Investigations
00:00:50
Speaker
Welcome back to Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline, where we explore the intersections of health, justice, and forensic nursing in Canada. Today, we're diving into a topic that many people don't realize sits squarely within the scope of forensic nursing, death investigation.
00:01:08
Speaker
What happens after a death that doesn't make sense? Who asks these questions? Who notices what others might miss? Across Canada, nurses are increasingly involved in the early stages of death investigation.
00:01:22
Speaker
They bring clinical insight, trauma-informed practice, and a holistic understanding of the person behind the case. Death investigation isn't just the work of coroners or medical examiners.
00:01:34
Speaker
Across Canada, forensic nurses are stepping into this space with a perspective that very few others bring. Today, we explore the emerging and often misunderstood role of forensic nurses in death investigations in Canada.
Meet Liz Loudon: Forensic Nurse Leader
00:01:48
Speaker
I have with me guest expert Liz Loudon, a respected forensic nurse with extensive experience in death investigation and current president of the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association. She joins the conversation today to unpack what nurses bring to this work, how the system functions across provinces, and why nursing perspectives matter in understanding circumstances that surround death.
00:02:12
Speaker
Today, we're going beyond the obvious and beyond the body with Liz to explore how nurses help uncover answers when a death is sudden, unexpected, or unexplained.
00:02:23
Speaker
Welcome, Liz. Thank you for having me. So as I understand it, you've been a forensic nurse whose career has gone across acute care, community, specialty, forensic nursing roles. You've worked closely with coroners, medical examiners, law enforcement, and families trying to navigate sudden or unexpected deaths. And you're known for your ability to bridge the clinical care with the investigative rigor and a strong commitment, I think, to ensuring that every death is approached with dignity, curiosity, and respect. So Liz, that's super cool.
00:02:59
Speaker
Thank you for joining us. But let's start with how you became involved with death investigation in Canada in the first place.
Liz Loudon's Forensic Nursing Journey
00:03:05
Speaker
I have to admit it's been quite the process as unfortunately most provinces don't recognize the skill set and value of the forensic nurse investigator.
00:03:15
Speaker
I became interested in death investigation as an opportunity became available at a time when I needed my final preceptorship for my master of forensic nursing. So as what always happens, I knew someone who knew someone And suddenly I found myself in Miami-Dade at the ah date at the em ME's office under the tutelage of Dr. Emma Liu, who actually hails from Saskatoon. And at that time, she was the deputy medical examiner in Miami-Dade. She's now the chief ME in Miami-Dade. So it really comes down to who you know in that situation, certainly.
00:03:52
Speaker
I attended every autopsy I could. The Miami Dade police would pick me up at all hours to go to every crime scene, terrified my B&B hosts. And I spent time with the forensic lab, the photographers, saw and learned so much that when my preceptorship hours were completed, i stayed on for another six weeks. And i was fascinated, wanted to learn as much as I could.
00:04:17
Speaker
um i also learned what the investigators did at the scene, how they were utilized, what their role was. And while the forensic nurses weren't used at that office, I certainly could see how they could be.
00:04:30
Speaker
so So you started how long ago? And this was when you say Miami-Dade, that means in the United States. Right, in Florida. Okay. So you started you starteded south and then brought everything north. And brought north. That's correct. And that was, i graduated with my master's in 2009. So it was 2008. And then i stayed on well into 2009.
00:04:56
Speaker
So that was the timeframe. But at the time, I also noted how the different disciplines work together. at to provide both the deceased and their families with the respect and compassion that forensic nurses are known for and the information that they deserve. So I then completed the death investigation course through St. Louis University in the States again, which added to my knowledge.
00:05:21
Speaker
That's how I started. Liz, what exactly is death investigation?
Understanding Death Investigations
00:05:27
Speaker
so it's it's It's a process where ah someone is deceased and someone has to determine whether the circumstances behind that event are unnatural. Natural is to to determine the identity of the deceased, the cause of the death, perhaps the medical reason, the manner of death, whether it's natural, accidental, suicidal, homicide, or undetermined for all in it sudden unexpected or violent deaths. So basically they they aim to improve public safety, prevent future deaths and provide closure to the families.
00:06:09
Speaker
That's it in a nutshell, really. So if I understand it correctly, does every death get investigated then? No. Which ones get chosen and how? So that's why you have the two, the two different, um, uh, death investigation systems that have developed in Canada started in the UK way, way back, like centuries ago where the coroner system was used then. Um, and, um,
00:06:37
Speaker
Now they moved to the States and our system is basically based off the States, with the states which is based off the UK. So there's the coroner system, the and me system, and death investigation is responsibility of each individual Canadian province and territory. So there's no overarching federal authority, which It sometimes can be problematic.
00:07:03
Speaker
um As a result, each province's territories developed their own system and legislation to fulfill the mandate of investigating deaths that are unexpected, unexplained or a result of injuries or drugs. So...
00:07:18
Speaker
um The ME systems that are used, the medical examiner system, short, sorry, short for that, used in Alberta, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador.
00:07:32
Speaker
And they use forensic pathologists to determine the cause of death while other provinces use a coroner system. So in Prince Edward rde Island, Ontario, BC, Saskatchewan, Quebec, New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Nunavut and the Yukon.
00:07:49
Speaker
So they use coroners who are not necessarily physicians, except for Prince Edward Island and Ontario, who, where all corners are by law physicians.
00:08:02
Speaker
let me get this straight. How does a non-physician determine if a death, or am I'm a non-physician here, let's say, how does a non-clinical person, because I think and a nurse might be able to do some of that determination as well, but you know with the depth of understanding of pathophysiology anatomy,
00:08:21
Speaker
anatomy How does a non-clinical person with a non-medical background determine if something is sketchy or not when it comes to a death?
00:08:34
Speaker
That is a really good question. and it used to be ah a um it used to be the joke of the of the century that there would be in certain remote areas, there would be The guy that owned the corner store was the corner. And it it was true.
00:08:55
Speaker
Absolutely true. they Today, they generally have legal, medical or investigative backgrounds. Coroners do. But there are still areas in Canada where your coroner is just somebody that stepped up to the job.
00:09:10
Speaker
so've I've heard even of of lawyers doing yeah this this work. and And no discredit to lawyers. They have their their place. um But how do they determine if a if a death is sketchy or not when it comes to understanding that pathophysiology? Do they have some medical training?
00:09:31
Speaker
Not necessarily, no. And that that is what... I think gets under the ire of most forensic nurses who are interested and passionate about this area. So, you know, we are well aware that there well-educated, trained individuals who are passionate about this and they just can't get into the system for whatever reason. And yet there's so many areas in Canada that are serviced by individuals who are uneducated and not
00:10:04
Speaker
in ah in an adequate position to determine the cause and and and manner of death. it's It's quite frustrating. It is, I will admit.
00:10:15
Speaker
um So you know, Liz, that I'm really involved with strangulation stuff. And the Training Institute on Strangulation Prevention in the United States does a hidden homicides workshop and webinar. I haven't attended it. I've read a lot of them and and seen them. But they talk a lot about how in intimate partner violence, it's not uncommon for a death to be staged where it looks like, say, the female committed suicide and yet she was strangled by her partner and they are concerned that those are being missed. Are those being missed even more in Canada when we have a coroner system of lay people who are
00:10:55
Speaker
I don't know, where's their education coming from, CSI and and Law & Order on tv Or or you know like do we have checks and balances in place to make sure that, you mentioned that the death investigation occurs in unexplained or sudden deaths. So so do all of those get investigated and and what kind of rigor is there?
00:11:17
Speaker
No, it's the mandate of both systems include investigating those deaths. And to be the stat, the current stat is that 14% of all Canadian deaths are reviewed annually.
00:11:30
Speaker
So um it needs to be remembered with both of these systems. Their purpose is not to establish civil or criminal guilt, but to identify the deceased. So determine the the cause a matter of death and make recommendations for public safety and all the jurisdictions, both systems, in other words, report to the Canadian Coroner and Medical Examiner database, which compiles national data for research. And so I will be honest,
00:12:01
Speaker
um I'm not sure what overview that the coroner system has. i cross my fingers and hope that, you know, it's adequate. But I have no doubt, and I'll be honest, I have no doubt that there are many deaths that are missed and should not be.
00:12:22
Speaker
So let's clarify then what does it mean to be a reportable death? Which deaths
Reportable Deaths in Canada
00:12:27
Speaker
are reportable? Walk me through some some examples. Like if if I go to the hospital and i collapse from a heart attack, is that a reportable death or is that like expected and they just sort of wipe their hands and throw me in the morgue?
00:12:39
Speaker
No, every death in ah in a hospital ah within 24 hours of admission is reportable. So going backwards, a reportable death in Canada is any death that is sudden, unexpected, unexplained, or results from violence, negligence, or unnatural causes. So that includes suicide or accident. So um all of those deaths must be reported to a coroner or an ME. for investigation including deaths in custody on the job or under medical care which is where a hospital admission falls and and even including intraoperative or post-operative cases and also child's deaths.
00:13:22
Speaker
Every children's deaths must be reported. Which deaths are not reportable then? Because that sounds like pretty much every death I can think of. Well, if you have, so I'll give you an example. Okay. So if you have a, A senior citizen perhaps, or someone who is disabled, lives at home under current medical care on multiple medications, long complex medical history, and they are found by ah a loved one and their family deceased in bed, that would not be reportable.
00:13:58
Speaker
So.
00:14:01
Speaker
What about MAID? um medical Medical assistance in dying. what like is is Does that need to be reported? Because, I mean, that's a whole new thing in Canada.
00:14:12
Speaker
Yeah, MAID is definitely reportable. So Ontario is the only province currently in Canada with nurses with the title of coroner investigators in in that province. They conduct death investigations, review medical histories of the deceased, and manage MAGE data of which they are um very meticulous with. um So they take an incredible amount of time documenting and reviewing stats and and supplying stats to the provincial database.
00:14:49
Speaker
So I noted, i have to tell you, I noted this month that there was a job posting for the maid nurse investigator in Ontario in in January. 235 nurses applied for that one position.
00:15:03
Speaker
Wow. That was astounding to me. You know, my grandmother, I'll share a bit of personal information, had a maid death in about 2017 in Toronto. And I'll tell you, it was a real pleasant surprise to get a phone call from a forensic nurse who verified the details with us. It was a planned death, of course. And I was going to ask, are forensic nurses still playing this role? But it sounds like they are, and maybe it's expanding. So Ontario is really leading the way in the forensic nurses, at least within the MAID program.
00:15:39
Speaker
Correct. Yeah, you are correct. they' ah there's That's the only place in Ontario ah where you'll find a forensic nurse. They're not used as death and investigat investigators, but they are used within this program.
00:15:53
Speaker
Where else in Canada are forensic nurses being used? In what other areas of death investigation other than MAID deaths in Canada? So Dr. Butt, who you mentioned previously was instrumental in developing the role of forensic nurse in a nurse investigator in Calgary. And so thankfully both em ME's offices in Edmonton and Calgary continue to use forensic nurses as investigators. The BC coroner service utilizes forensic nurses. And as you mentioned,
00:16:27
Speaker
in your course that you took previously, special specialized training for the forensic nurse death investigator is provided through institutions like BCIT. The ME's office in Nova Scotia has developed their investigator role around the forensic nurse. Their ME, Dr. Matthew Bowes is incredibly supportive of forensic nurses. And I have also noted, but try and find this information. It's almost impossible.
00:16:56
Speaker
that in the territories, nurses are also filling coroner roles.
Forensic Nurses at Death Scenes
00:17:02
Speaker
So Liz, when a forensic nurse is working with a coroner or a medical examiner's office, walk me through what a day in the life of might look like or what happens when they get called to a scene.
00:17:16
Speaker
Okay, so um what happens with every patient a death that's reported to police and and and then who goes to, it's the police most of the time that goes to the ME's office or the coroner's service and they send out someone, whether it's a forensic nurse or a death investigator, the who's not ah to assess the scene.
00:17:43
Speaker
The most important aspect of of assessing any scene is determining the circumstances around that event. So that that is what essentially determines whether a death is reportable or not. So um a forensic nurse would walk onto the scene and and do what the police should already be doing, seal it off to anyone else.
00:18:07
Speaker
family, friends, bystanders, no other person is allowed on that scene. And while ah the remains are are examined externally, they are not touched until um the scene is completely photographed. ah All evidence that can be captured packaged up and preserved and under chain of custody qualifications, the body is not touched until all of that is done. So and then in assessing with the family
00:18:43
Speaker
what their or whoever found the the remains, whatever their information that they can provide and the bystanders or whoever have found the the remains, they then determine whether or not police need to be involved, whether where the body or the remains are transported to, whether it's a and ME's office or ah or a coroner's office or just a funeral home.
00:19:13
Speaker
So um it's it's a time, you know, it's you have to take your time. It's nothing that's quick. It's nothing that's fast. You have to determine whether or not those circumstances um require which discipline and which facility that they go to.
00:19:34
Speaker
So, and when you have a coroner service, if it's determined that an autopsy is required, for example, in the Northwest Territories, there's 19, well, in 2024, there 19 coroners within that territory underneath a coroner.
00:19:52
Speaker
coroner But there are no facilities whatsoever in the Northwest Territories to to have an autopsy done. Any remains in the Northwest Territory that need an autopsy are transported to Edmonton.
00:20:06
Speaker
So um you have to have an investigator who really understands what the circumstances are and what those mean.
00:20:18
Speaker
So you have to think carefully, you have to um use your investigative skills and you have to use your communication skills with the family and friends and understand exactly what the circumstances would indicate and where you would go from there.
00:20:35
Speaker
And so other than that, it's documentation, it's communication with disciplines, it's communication with people, your forensic professionals and um and essentially it's providing information to the family and in a compassionate, trauma-informed way.
00:20:57
Speaker
Do forensic nurses often take part in the autopsy? you You can, depending on the ME's office, some forensic nurses can actually participate.
00:21:09
Speaker
depending on the autopsy, certainly not if it's considered a homicide, but um but you can observe always. um But I know when I did when i did my experience in Miami-Dade, I was allowed to partake in within the autopsy on certain cases.
00:21:31
Speaker
Why not for a homicide? Because all of that evidence it then ends up in court. and And anything that might detract from finding out the truth, you've put yourself in a really bad position. It's it's similar to when a SANE does their investigative reporting documentation and examination. If if anything untoward is noted within that process,
00:22:05
Speaker
procedure, it can be brought up in court and become a very negative experience. So in that case, might a forensic nurse assist in an autopsy, maybe for a homicide yeah rather that that the pathologist would be the lead. Yeah. And the forensic nurse might assist just as a, as a forensic nurse in a, in a sexual assault exam might be lead and they might have somebody assisting ascribing or labeling and that sort of thing as well. Yeah.
00:22:36
Speaker
It's it's ah completely under the purview of the ME, with what they feel and how they feel. And plus um in homicide cases and during autopsies, law enforcement is always present.
00:22:50
Speaker
So it depends on the situation and the and the where and when and those disciplines want and how they want it done.
00:23:05
Speaker
So, I mean, some law enforcement know full well the judiciary within that um department is, you know, dead against, would be dead against anyone else interfering with the autopsy, what they would view as interfering.
00:23:23
Speaker
And in other jurisdictions, they would understand that they're well-trained and they're educated and they they know what they're doing and they can participate as an assistant.
00:23:38
Speaker
So it all depends on the jurisdiction. it seems like our systems are consistently stuck in ways of doing things. Yeah. um And having, have struggling to maybe adapt or change, even if it makes more sense. We seem to be very, very stuck in like, this is the way we're doing it. It's the only way we do it. And that's that. And it it really does struggle.
00:24:03
Speaker
You are correct. Absolutely. And it's it's it's infuriating to most forensic nurses who just don't understand why people can't broaden their horizon.
00:24:14
Speaker
Right? It just, it's irritating and frustrating is all I can say. and But like I said, persistence, we must be determined and we must carry on because we know our value.
00:24:29
Speaker
Tell me what makes a forensic nurse ideal when it comes to death investigation?
Impact of Nursing Insight on Investigations
00:24:39
Speaker
So um the forensic nursing utilizes both medical and nursing knowledge to detract what looks like a natural death. For example, understanding the medications and their potential to cause complications in certain circumstances, noting evidence and scenes that contribute to a more truthful finding.
00:25:00
Speaker
We tend to have, I don't know whether it's just part and parcel of the nursing persona, but we tend to have that particularly observant eye that comes naturally to most nurses. And they can we tease out information in interviews with the family, ah bystanders, friends that support differential diagnosis that can continue the absolutely
00:25:27
Speaker
change the trajectory of of the investigation. Whereas someone with no knowledge, no understanding, no training walks in and goes, oh, it happened this is what happened. No problem. We'll carry on. Whereas a nurse will we dig in and have compassionate information filled interviews with people to determine exactly what happened.
00:25:53
Speaker
And so it goes from there. So they're knowledgeable on evidence preservation, chain of custody, trauma and violence informed approaches in both dealing with the deceased, but also with family and friends.
00:26:06
Speaker
And anyway, i I was gonna give you a couple of examples, but that's okay. well I actually want to hear the examples because I'm hearing that nurses, I think, have the scientific and the pathophysiological training, the underpinning and the foundation of nursing, but also the communication skills to approach and work with families. And also that blend of clinical reasoning and I think critical thinking and investigative thinking. So Liz, of course, without sharing any identifying details, I want to hear some examples where nursing insight changed the trajectory or really impacted a case.
00:26:46
Speaker
Okay. So... um I had several instances in Miami-Dade where having a nurse on site provided the police and the families with the ability to promote professional relationships and engage in sensitive conversations with families, next of kin, practitioners. So I remember a scene with an 11 year old male who was found hanging in his closet and he he lived in a culturally culturally traditional household where law enforcement This poor guy, well, if there was more than one, was obviously having a really significant, difficult time focusing and maintaining his own composure, and let alone supporting a family of a different culture who have just discovered their son in a very difficult position. So it fell to me to provide compassionate trauma and violence-informed care,
00:27:40
Speaker
while directing appropriate resources towards this family that would provide them with the advocacy that they would definitely need going forward.
00:27:51
Speaker
um Another instance where a husband murdered his wife and then committed suicide on the property and left a very young child and who found his parents.
00:28:06
Speaker
So that was in the same instance, the, I found law enforcement was at a loss. They didn't know where to start or how to continue and what to do and how to do it.
00:28:19
Speaker
And we just, and I was a student at the time. I mean, I was, ah i was a registered nurse and had been for some time, but I hadn't been a forensic nurse for very long. And I i was precepting for my masters at the time. So, you know, but.
00:28:33
Speaker
It just seemed to be natural to just step in and go, okay, what are we looking for and why and how? And we found the murder weapon underneath the bed and it was just, we just delved in and and did it step by step and became considerate to the situation and not allowing ourselves to become, oh, what do we do I don't know.
00:28:57
Speaker
it it just seems to be a nurse can can delve into those situations with a common sense that provides consistency to the situation and and provides comfort and compassionate care to the individuals that need it and direction to those that don't, if that makes sense.
00:29:20
Speaker
it makes a lot of sense so when I'm thinking about it. I think even within working with victims of violence, like like I do with sexual assault and partner violence, there are times when we as the forensic nurse sort of lead the police officer through this is this is how we're going to approach this. Not that we're doing their job for them, but let's take a deep breath and three steps back and approach this with some humanity, with some critical thought. Because like you said, it's really easy to sometimes get lost in the weeds and lost in the emotion, sometimes lost in the investigation even. And I do think nurses come with a unique skill set that is used to working with people in crisis while trying to keep that clear level head and and think straight. So it would make a lot of sense to put nurses in these roles.
00:30:15
Speaker
Why are we not seeing nurses in these roles in Canada?
Awareness and Opportunities for Forensic Nurses
00:30:19
Speaker
I knew you were going to ask me that question. Yeah.
00:30:23
Speaker
um i I strongly feel that it is ah a lack of awareness. And it's it's something, as you mentioned earlier, um you and I both took our our education in death investigation and some time ago, right? And how many years later, we're still finding that, you know, we have not progressed.
00:30:49
Speaker
Certainly not how we would like to and how we would passionately want to. But I don't know, I strongly feel it's just lack of awareness and also um an understanding that has never been completed between disciplines.
00:31:09
Speaker
So people in positions of power, people in positions of leadership, political leaders, they don't seem to understand ah that, how do i how do I say this? It's it's the money.
00:31:25
Speaker
For me, it's the money that directs the process. And they don't seem to understand the money that they would save if they actually and brought in forensic nurses into these positions. And and provide on the on the side as well, comfort, compassionate trauma-informed care to their ah to patients and to but and to the public.
00:31:52
Speaker
It's just that that money and that power ah mixed together just doesn't seem to allow the intrusion of common sense from my viewpoint. Maybe I shouldn't said that. But anyway...
00:32:08
Speaker
So given that and the challenges, i think forensic nurses, even in where we're probably most utilized in Canada, which is sex assault and domestic violence cases, we're getting into child maltreatment, nurses definitely working in jails.
00:32:25
Speaker
how do we take the step that was taken, say, in 1992 when nurses were becoming sexual assault nurse examiners and people were saying, no, no, only doctors can do that. and And we took that leap and said, hang on a second, we think we can do this too, or we know we can do this. How do we do that with with death investigation? How do we do that with coroner's offices that think you know the guy at the corner store is just as qualified as ah as a nurse still? you know, in 2026?
00:32:57
Speaker
Well, just well, I think, yeah, exactly. Just like SANE's and and we you and I are both very well aware, and I'm sure most of our audience is that SANE's are still, um although the the the road isn't quite as difficult, they are still finding obstacles.
00:33:17
Speaker
And there's many areas in Canada where physicians just will not let go of that. and And again, i had a conversation just yesterday, actually, with ah someone about the reasoning behind why Sains cannot get a foothold in provinces like Quebec.
00:33:37
Speaker
And certain areas of Alberta and certain areas in in the Yukon. And so um i would hope the physicians across Canada who utilize forensic nurses in these roles in death investigation work speak out to their colleagues and the Canadian Association of Forensic Medicine who are aware of us and support us continue to partner and promote forensic nurses. And then Just like so sexual assault nurse examiners, death investigating forensic nurses, they're passionate, don't give up.
00:34:15
Speaker
Be determined. And we know, you and I both know forensic nurses are nothing if they're not determined and passionate. so i know it's taking forever, but we have to keep on. We just have to, have to. It's an essential service in my view.
00:34:35
Speaker
So. yeah i um I hate to sort of come back to this, but perhaps it's something to do with the female-oriented profession again, where nurses are typically on the lower rung of a power imbalance within health care. Therefore, they're seen as lesser than inherently. I know that in court systems, you know nurses are who are specialized in, say, sex assault cases are paid significantly less than a a general practitioner who doesn't have that specialization. Nurses are still being paid on call for a lot of this work, and yet it is is quite specialized work.
00:35:15
Speaker
So I'd have to argue that you know nurser nurses' virtue script and where we've placed ourselves as a female profession for so long – likely continues to hold us back in so many ways. And i think, Liz, holding hands with our other healthcare care partners, other legal partners, is the best way to make those inroads. Rather than competition, it's collaboration. right So then that think makes me think, okay, for all those young buck nurses who are not at the end of their careers, like myself and maybe yourself, or people who maybe love a nurse, who are listening today and they're like, that sounds really interesting. I think I could do death investigation. i think I could do this work.
00:35:58
Speaker
Where do you get some education and where do you start? Preferably in Canada. Yeah, preferably in Canada. Yeah. So a good question. and I was going to say, like I said, you have to be persistent and educate yourself. That was high on the list.
00:36:15
Speaker
Take every course you can find. And so that there, as we mentioned previously, this course is in BCIT. And I know that New Brunswick, New um has some modules within their discipline of forensic nursing. um But once again, and I hate to say this and I hate to promote it, but if that's all there is, that's all we have.
00:36:41
Speaker
The US, I'm sorry, but it's the US that has the education opportunities for forensic nurses. They do. And when you think about it, when I started SANE Nursing way back when,
00:36:55
Speaker
and wanted to do my master's in forensic nursing. The only university, there was two universities and they were both in the States that got offered it. Now i i look at the States and those offerings have increased substantially. And the same with death investigation. So St. Louis University, there's other sort of certificate programs within the the US that are offered at most universities or the American Association for Medical Coroners and Medical Examiners. They have education opportunities.
00:37:35
Speaker
But Canada, once again, is lacking in those areas. And I... What I would strongly, strongly wish our forensic nurses to do is for a a group of our nurses to get together and present,
00:37:52
Speaker
ah ah now the words again gone out of my head, um present a ah blueprint or a framework to a university saying, this is something that's needed. Would you be interested to do this?
00:38:09
Speaker
you know, in other provinces other than BC or Ontario. And even the Maritimes has education, but the middle swath of Canada is at a loss. So there's nothing in Saskatchewan, well, there's nothing in Alberta, nothing in Saskatchewan, nothing in Manitoba, Quebec. Oh dear, we all know about Quebec. and But Ontario has ah minor certificate courses. And then as you head east, they they build up again.
00:38:39
Speaker
So that that middle portion of Canada just doesn't want to let go and give in But I'm crossing my fingers that you know forensic nurses being persistent and determined as we are, we will get it eventually.
00:38:56
Speaker
And hopefully before I'm retired and long gone. So if I invest in some education, which I did in 2007 thinking, oh, death investigation sounds interesting. That was almost 20 years ago.
00:39:12
Speaker
um So if I invest in some education, maybe in the United States, maybe in Canada, if I'm if i'm lucky, what opportunities exist for me,
Educational Paths and Career Opportunities
00:39:22
Speaker
though? Like I'm hearing medical assistants in dying, maybe a handful of positions in New Brunswick and a handful in Calgary and Edmonton. Is that it? I'm SOL after that?
00:39:35
Speaker
So in regards to what I've already said, there also are opportunities available to those who are passionate about education and ah regarding the educational level, if you have the appropriate degrees, i.e. graduate, um you have the opportunity to teach. So, for example, I teach for a U.S. university in their Master of Science Forensic Nursing program, and I teach several of their courses, but one specifically in regards to death investigation. It keeps my interest level up. It keeps my current practice relevant and it's fascinating to me. So that's another opportunity that is open.
00:40:24
Speaker
I'm not sure about how many opportunities are available in Canada, although I do know BCIT has a DI investigation course that may be looking for instructors and there may be other programs across Canada. However, that is another opportunity that forensic nurses have availability for.
00:40:47
Speaker
Thank you so much, Liz, for your conversation today. Despite that note, I think that we are probably back maybe 30 years ago where we were with the SANS, and we just now now we're entering the next realm of forensic nurse examiners. So I appreciate your experience illuminating some of this, I think, invisible but absolutely essential role that forensic nurses can play. And I'm grateful for your time and for your leadership. I understand that in the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association, nurses who are interested or maybe already involved in death investigation are absolutely
Conclusion and Future Episodes
00:41:25
Speaker
welcome. It's not just for the vast majority of us who are doing sex assault and domestic violence cases, correct?
00:41:33
Speaker
Correct. Yes. So as I think we've learned today, death investigation is quite complex. It's human and it's deeply important. And I think nurses really can be and probably should be there at the heart of it. Our systems and maybe archaic thinking might be preventing the best profession for some of this work in Canada. So today, Liz, conversations like this just remind us how much depth and nuance forensic nursing brings to every corner of our legal system and our health system.
00:42:03
Speaker
So thank you for listening, everybody, and come back soon as we continue to go beyond the scene and beyond the chart and beyond what you thought you knew. That's it for this month's episode of Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline.
00:42:16
Speaker
If you found this conversation helpful, share it with a colleague or a student who's curious about forensic nursing. And stay tuned. Future episodes dive into more corners of this complex and fascinating field of work. If you've been recently hurt or assaulted, stalked or harassed, please seek medical care at your closest emergency department. Connect with support services in your community or your local police.
00:42:38
Speaker
I am forensic nurse practitioner Hannah Varto and this is Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline, a podcast by the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association. Thank you for listening. Stay safe.