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Beyond the Badge — Investigating Stalking in Canada - Episode 4
18 Plays6 days ago
Content warning: This episode discusses criminal harassment (stalking), intimate partner violence, and digital surveillance.
Criminal harassment—commonly known as stalking—is one of the most pervasive yet underreported crimes in Canada. It often escalates over time, leaving survivors living in fear while facing significant barriers to legal protection. From persistent following to digital monitoring, stalking behaviours can be difficult to prove and even harder to stop before they turn dangerous.
In this episode of Beyond the Rape Kit: Canada's Forensic Frontline, we sit down with a retired Canadian police officer who spent years investigating criminal harassment cases. Together, we unpack the realities behind the badge: how these cases are built from patterns of behaviour, why stalking so often goes unreported, and what survivors face when the law doesn't quite fit the crime.
Through real-world investigative experience, our guest breaks down the clinical and legal realities of stalking: from digital trails and GPS tracking to silent following and unwanted contact; from intimate partner cases to stranger obsession. The conversation explores red flags law enforcement must recognize, evidentiary challenges that complicate prosecution, the psychological toll on survivors, and how inadequate documentation can undermine justice and safety.
A must-listen for frontline workers, investigators, survivors, advocates, legal practitioners, and anyone committed to understanding and preventing criminal harassment.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Beyond the Rape Kit'
00:00:07
Speaker
This is not just another medical podcast or true crime series. This is the voice of forensic nursing in Canada. This is Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline.
00:00:20
Speaker
We're the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association. We're pulling back the curtain on what really happens when trauma meets healthcare, when survivors seek justice, and when nurses stand at the front lines of both.
00:00:32
Speaker
Follow us today Spotify, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Blue Sky. Or check us out on the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association website.
Focus on Stalking Investigations
00:00:50
Speaker
What does stalking really look like from the inside of an investigation? How do you prove fear and track patterns? And how do you protect someone whose life is being quietly dismantled?
00:01:02
Speaker
Today's episode of Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline, we sit down with a retired detective, formerly with Calgary Police Service, who spent many years investigating criminal harassment and what many know as stalking.
00:01:17
Speaker
Today, we'll unpack realities behind the badge and how cases are built, why stalking goes unreported, and what survivors face when the law doesn't quite fit the crime.
Insights from Retired Detective Jeff Anderson
00:01:27
Speaker
From digital trails to silent following, from intimate partners to strangers, today's conversation sheds light on the patterns, the gaps, and the hope for change.
00:01:38
Speaker
Whether you're a frontline worker, an investigator, a survivor, or an advocate, or maybe just someone who wants to understand more, this episode is for you.
00:01:49
Speaker
Today we call our episode Beyond the Badge, Investigating Stalking in Canada. We'll explore what stalking looks like on the ground, how cases are built, and what's changed over time. I'd like to welcome Jeff Anderson, retired detective, formerly with Calgary Police Service.
00:02:07
Speaker
Hi there. Thank you very much for having me It's a great honor to be here. So Jeff, I recently attended a presentation that you gave in Edmonton at the Diverse Voices Conference.
00:02:18
Speaker
And before your talk, when I thought about stalking, um i thought about that woman um in Vancouver who shared a video of a man following her through downtown. And I remember it it sparked a lot of public concern and it brought forth questions about stalking laws.
Defining Stalking in Canadian Law
00:02:33
Speaker
And this guy literally followed her closely for an extended period of time while she walked through the downtown core. And that video went viral and it prompted widespread discussions about stalking and criminal harassment in Canada. Now, the man did not speak or touch her, but he was close distance for her for several blocks, causing visible distress.
00:02:54
Speaker
The VPD, or Vancouver Police Department, launched an investigation and identified a, quote, person of interest in what they referred to as, quote, the stalking file. And then there was a lot of questions around Canadian laws, which seem to offer very little to women who are being stalked, whether it's by a stranger or maybe a former partner, for example, unless there's a pattern of behavior which he then has to prove, or there's witnesses or recorded explicit threats. So Jeff, I think I need to better understand what the impact of stalking is on survivors and how the law works and the importance of understanding the investigative lens, because we need to start to thinking about defining stalking and what it is and what it's not and how it's applied under Canadian law. So Jeff, why don't you give me a little summary of your understanding of stalking within the Canadian context?
00:03:44
Speaker
Sure. As you said at the beginning, stalking as it's commonly known, in Canada under Canadian law is actually referred to as criminal harassment. So stalking can take many forms.
00:03:59
Speaker
its It's the overarching kind of term we use to describe the behaviors. But what it is in Canadian law, criminal harassment refers to those stalking behaviors that someone participates in, a perpetrator targets a specific person, which causes that person to fear for their safety or the safety of anyone known to them.
00:04:27
Speaker
Those behaviors fall into four different categories. One would be repeatedly communicating with someone.
00:04:38
Speaker
That's either directly or indirectly over text, email, face to face, sending messages through other persons. Another type of behavior that we're looking at when we're talking about stalking is repeatedly following someone, which is fairly self-explanatory. Then we have one set of behaviors which we're referring to watching.
00:05:04
Speaker
So we may sit outside a residence, a place of work and just watch and monitor someone else. And then there's a set of behaviors that we refer to as threatening conduct. Now, this isn't the same as what we call threats, where there doesn't have to be a direct threat to harm someone, but the behavior is such that the person being targeted knows that it's a threat ah to them.
00:05:34
Speaker
And so that behavior causes them to to fear for themselves. Now, one of the good things but in Canadian law that has been defined is that safety is not just your physical safety. So if someone is being targeted, their safety isn't just the physical.
00:05:51
Speaker
Canadian law has defined it as person has a right to be protected from their emotional and psychological harm as well. So when we're looking at safety,
00:06:03
Speaker
yes We primarily think about physical safety, but we also have to turn our mind to person's emotional and psychological safety. So overall, that's
Harassment vs. Stalking: Legal Nuances
00:06:17
Speaker
what it looks like. Criminal harassment, behaviors that causes somebody to fear for their safety.
00:06:23
Speaker
What's the difference between harassment and stalking then? They kind of go hand in hand. The stalking behaviors cause someone to feel harassed. So they're they're similar.
00:06:36
Speaker
There can be harassment that doesn't enter the criminal realm, that makes sense to you. so So criminal harassment, stalking, and then just harassing behavior.
00:06:51
Speaker
They're very similar, but at different stages, depending on whether it causes fear or causes emotional, psychological harm, they will then become criminal.
00:07:04
Speaker
However, you can be harassing and annoying to someone without getting into that criminal realm. You mentioned the four types of of stalking there, Jeff. And I remember, i think from your talk in the conference that you had given some examples, specifically number four, which is a bit more ambiguous.
00:07:24
Speaker
Can you maybe talk about an example of that fourth type where it's not an overt threat, like I'm going to hurt you, but it's something that the receiver or victim perceives as a threat or knows as a threat?
Case Study: Manitoba Message Threat
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So one of the really good things in Canadian law that we have is when they when they wrote the criminal harassment legislation, the legislation was aimed at looking at this crime through the eyes of the victim, which is there's no other in the criminal code in Canada that we look at the victim's perception per se. So in this, what happens with threatening conduct, an example of that, one of the first cases that came about was a case out of Manitoba where a young lady called in
00:08:26
Speaker
to police. She was hysterical. She was saying she was threatened, that she her life was in danger and that she needed help. Police arrive. They have a hard time calming her down. and She's quite distraught.
00:08:42
Speaker
They eventually get her calmed down and they ask what's going on. And she she says, my ex is going to kill me. i'm I'm in danger. I need help. They said, well, why do you think that? She said, well, he's left me a message. So they say, okay, we'll play the message for us.
00:08:59
Speaker
So they play the message. She plays the message for the police officers. And it's a very innocuous message to to someone who doesn't know the situation. Basically, the message is,
00:09:13
Speaker
Hey, sweetie, it's me. I think it's time to go camping. And then hangs up. And as soon as she hears the message again in front of the police officer, she becomes very upset and distraught again.
00:09:27
Speaker
The police, this a little odd for them. They're wondering what's so threatening about this, why she's so upset. They do a good job and they ask some questions and they figure out, well,
00:09:39
Speaker
Um, she'd been in a very violent relationship, uh, with, with an individual for a number of years where she was, uh, significantly abused physically, emotionally. And one of the last incidents that happened was while they were out camping and, uh, the male, uh, beat her severely, hospitalized her for several months, caused a great amount of damage. And he told her during the attack that the next time he was going to kill her.
00:10:12
Speaker
So he goes to jail for a period of time. he gets out of jail. Sometime after he's out, he leaves a message on her machine that says it's time to go camping. She knows what that means.
00:10:24
Speaker
She knows she's in danger. To anyone else, that's not a threat. You would never be able under Canadian law to lay a charge of uttering threats that wouldn't even fly. However, these officers, they tested the law for criminal harassment.
00:10:41
Speaker
They laid the charge under the threatening conduct section. And it was the very first case that there was a conviction for threatening conduct under under that. for Because in the victim's mind, she knew that that was a threat.
00:11:00
Speaker
That's terrifying, that case. And i'm I'm really glad that the officers who talked with her took that seriously. um i think perhaps, Jeff, you've seen that harassment and these behaviors can be so passive aggressive and using phrases or terms that are perhaps shared between just the two of them, that it would be potentially easy to interpret camping as let's go camping rather than I'm going to kill you or I'm coming for you.
Emotional Impact of Stalking
00:11:35
Speaker
So I guess the other piece I need to think about is i work with victims of violence who've physically been hurt or been hurt through sexual assault. So like, why do I care about stalking so much if nobody's being physically hurt or harmed?
00:11:53
Speaker
Well, that's that's a good question. And it's one that too often gets asked, I guess, when someone comes forward to report. We need to care about it because quite honestly, someone is being hurt.
00:12:06
Speaker
Even when someone may not be being physically harmed during criminal harassment or stalking, They are being harmed emotionally and psychologically.
00:12:18
Speaker
Most victims of stalking, particularly when it's from a domestic violence situation where the relationship has ended and now there's harassing behavior, stalking happening,
00:12:31
Speaker
These victims are diagnosed quite often with post-traumatic stress disorder because of the stalking. They live in a constant state of fear and anxiety. They develop all kinds of disorders. They can't sleep. They can't eat. Sometimes they become suicidal.
00:12:48
Speaker
And quite realistically, we as service providers, we always want to get people out of violent relationships. We always want to get them away from the abuse.
00:13:01
Speaker
Well, what happens when those relationships end is criminal harassment starts, stalking starts because the perpetrator isn't ready to let go of the relationship. So we need to care about it because also let's just the statistics show it very clearly that the vast majority of intimate partner homicides, there was pre-stalking behavior.
00:13:27
Speaker
It's close to 80%. So when stalking starts, especially when it comes from a inter intimate partner relationship that has ended, we know that there is a significant risk of future harm.
00:13:44
Speaker
Another alarming statistic was that 54% of femicide victims had reported stalking behavior prior to being murdered.
00:13:55
Speaker
So we really do need to take it seriously. It is a real threat. It's a bit like what we refer to with strangulation as the last warning shot. This is a perpetrator saying, my next step is after stalking is femicide or serious harm.
00:14:17
Speaker
And I'm telling everybody this by my behaviors. um I know that during your presentation, you told an interesting story, which also touches on these risks, I think, of an actress. I believe she was from Oregon.
00:14:34
Speaker
What was her name? Rebecca Schaefer, I believe. Tell me about her story. i think that highlights a little bit about just how serious stalking can become.
Rebecca Shafer's Story and Stalking Risks
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, Rebecca Shafer's case was in the late 80s in California, in the United States, obviously. She was a young actress at the time. She was starred on made-for-TV series. she She developed a stalker through just being a a TV star. she A fan had taken a an obsession towards her had become obsessed with Rebecca.
00:15:22
Speaker
And at one point she made a kind of a made for TV movie where she played a different role, a role that was opposite to the one she was playing on TV on TV. She was playing a very innocent, sweet kind of sister on the show. And on the, in the movie, she played more promiscuous young woman who was,
00:15:44
Speaker
involved with a married man. And this incensed her stalker. He obviously was suffering some from some serious mental health and he decided that he needed to stop Hollywood from destroying this his obsession, his idol, this person he'd come to worship. So he he made the decision to buy a gun and he went to find Rebecca. And back then in the state of California, you could pay $50 to the motor vehicle branch and find someone's address.
00:16:20
Speaker
So that's what he did. And unfortunately for her on that day, her security system was down. She was expecting someone to come to fix it. She thought that's who it was that was buzzing.
00:16:34
Speaker
She came down and she was confronted and she was shot and killed right there that are outside of her residence.
00:16:46
Speaker
Again, this wasn't from a domestic relationship. However, it shows you the types of violence that can happen without really sometimes any warning.
00:17:00
Speaker
There's been many cases, far too many, in one ah in my investigative time in Calgary where we've had people who've left relationships and then are killed afterwards by their former partner who's stalking them.
00:17:18
Speaker
and And when the stalking doesn't work, they can become resentful and angry and and then they can turn to violence.
00:17:30
Speaker
That's a really profound story. And that's an example of sort of a stranger becoming obsessed with somebody, a fan, becoming obsessed with an actress or a famous person, maybe thinking they know them. um But are there different types of stalkers?
00:17:49
Speaker
um And are any specific types or behaviors a red flag for something more dangerous than others?
Types of Stalkers Explained
00:17:57
Speaker
Yeah, there's, and we like our fours, it seems in the stalking culture, there's four general classes of stalkers that we've kind of looked at. It's transitioned over time, over the years. when we've transitioned away from looking at the type of relationship that came from, when now we look at more the motivations. So the first and most common type of stalker that we'll have we have is the rejected stalker.
00:18:29
Speaker
So this is someone who the relationship has broken down and ended, and the person isn't able to let go of the relationship.
00:18:41
Speaker
This most often is comes from relationships where there's been abuse, intimate partner violence, family violence. this is These are the longest lasting of all the stalkers you're going to have. They stick around for a very long time. They're very dedicated and obsessed. They're also the most dangerous.
00:19:07
Speaker
So they go through a whole gamut of different more emotions. At the beginning, they will want the relationship back and they'll engage in these behaviors to try to get the person back to win them back into the relationship. And when that's unsuccessful, they will then start to transition. It's almost like the stages of mourning. They'll start to go into denial and they'll become angry and jealous and frustrated. And as those motivation change, change, the danger increases.
00:19:44
Speaker
So what we see with the rejected stalker is at the beginning, they sound like they're in love. They just want the relationship back. And over time, when that's not working, you'll hear and see that the messaging they're sending, the survivor is becoming much more intense and more angry. And that's when we have to really start paying attention not that we shouldn't pay attention before but that we really need to take a heightened look into it the next type of stalker we have is the one that i described with rebecca schaefer where this is your intimacy seeker this is a person that likely has major mental health disorder they see someone else as their true love and they believe that those feelings are reciprocated even though they've never met
00:20:32
Speaker
likely never had any type of contact or relationship. And so then they start to engage in behaviors that they want that relationship in their mind to continue, even though there wasn't even one to begin with. These perpetrators have left alone, if left to go, they will not stop.
00:20:55
Speaker
But they're generally speaking, they don't turn to violence. as they they perceive negative rejection positively. So they they tend not to get angry or violent. They will do things that are certainly scary. They may break into a home, they may steal things, they may do things to get attention or to cause their survivor or victim to know that they're around.
00:21:27
Speaker
But usually if law enforcement and professionals get involved, They can be treated with medication, what have you, and they tend to go away.
00:21:40
Speaker
The next type of stalker you're going to have is what we call an incompetent stalker. And this isn't because they're not good at stalking. It's because they lack the social skills to engage in the and the normal courting relationship development.
00:21:55
Speaker
So they they're the shortest lasting. They tend to go away fairly quickly once a firm no and rejection has been told to them. But they just they engage in behaviors that are concerning to the target of their of their affection because it's not the normal way you go about courting. You know, they'll hang around and just be present.
00:22:26
Speaker
They'll sit and watch somebody. They're just hoping something happens and it starts, but they don't know how to start it. They're not obsessed. they're hoping for a relationship but they're not obsessed with the person they're not infatuated they just want a relationship so these tend not to be violent at all they tend to go away fairly quickly but they will have a pattern and this will be a pattern that they go through with multiple people our last type of stalker and this is Probably the most dangerous type of stalker you're going to have is the resentful stalker.
00:23:02
Speaker
So this person feels real or imagined that they've been wronged in some fashion and they will then go on a
00:23:14
Speaker
to try to destroy someone's life. There is no period of time where they want the person back, where they want a relationship. They don't. They simply want to upset them, cause them harm, cause them fear, and they want to upset their life.
00:23:32
Speaker
If you're going to have a female stalker, this will be the type of stalker. most Most female stalkers fall into this category. Female stalking is very rare.
00:23:47
Speaker
doesn't happen very often that females will stalk someone. But if it does, other than maybe someone with major mental health that's stalking maybe a star or something like that. But otherwise, if you're going to have a female stalker, it will be a resentful one.
Challenges in Stalking Investigations
00:24:06
Speaker
So where does an investigation start in all of these? I can imagine that the one who's sort of just awkward and hanging around is maybe a bit easier. quick warning might sort of shut it down pretty quick.
00:24:18
Speaker
But the other ones, how do we or how do you as police identify and then determine maybe that level of risk? And and where does an investigation even start?
00:24:30
Speaker
Well, it starts with somebody coming forward. That's the biggest thing. What we find Likewise with other power and control type of crimes, sexual assaults, you know domestic violence, is that people are hesitant to report to police. So it starts with someone coming forward.
00:24:54
Speaker
And then from there, it's a very detailed, very thorough interview where you have to get to know what this relationship is how it started, all the all the abuse or violence that happened during the relationship that led to this point, where now someone's fearful either for their emotional or physical safety now that the relationship's over.
00:25:22
Speaker
you know With the intimacy seekers where they have the major mental health, we need to get professionals involved. It's pretty easy to understand that there was no relationship and this is just someone who has mental health issue.
00:25:38
Speaker
The incompetence stalker is like you said, pretty simple there usually, where it's you know you get you do that initial interview, you figure out there was no relationship here. So this person just engaging in behavior that's, yeah, it's concerning, but doesn't appear to be threatening.
00:25:58
Speaker
But with the rejected and resentful stalkers, you're gonna it's going to be difficult. It's challenging to investigate these, especially with technology nowadays.
00:26:10
Speaker
You have to prove that the person, your suspect, is the actual person either sending the messages, watching the person, engaging the behaviors. You have to show that. So it is challenging.
00:26:24
Speaker
It's a lot of work. It's not easy to do, but it's one that's when someone comes forward, we have to take it seriously and we have to do a very thorough interview to understand that relationship in its entirety.
00:26:41
Speaker
Because if you don't understand that relationship and all the nuances that go with it, it makes it much more challenging to investigate the behaviors that are happening. What kind of things can a victim do or someone who's experiencing stalking or harassment like this? What kinds of things do you as an investigator need from them to essentially prove what's happening?
00:27:10
Speaker
Well, What we like, what's, I mean, the best case scenario for a police investigator would be to have someone who has kept the voicemails, who's kept the text messages and the emails, who's taken notes on when something happened, like taken a, kept a diary and written down dates and times of when that's occurred.
00:27:35
Speaker
Most often we're left trying to rely on someone's memory. as to when it happened and and what have you. My advice would be if someone is a survivor that's listening to this and they're and it this is happening to them, if they want to assist the police, write things down, make notes, keep everything GIFs, you know photos, whatever you have, videos, whatever is out there, keep that because those will just help the police investigation because it is can be challenging to prove it.
00:28:12
Speaker
So we we need all the help we can get. And I say we, I'm no longer a member, but the police in general, they need they need that assistance because it is a bit of hill to climb to prove it, but it can be done.
00:28:29
Speaker
What types of charges have you seen actually move forward? And then what were the the sentences associated with those? Again, I come back to the like, if there's no physical harm, because then you know you're moving into the physical assault realm.
00:28:44
Speaker
um I think that maybe we don't take this quite as seriously. So do courts take it seriously?
00:28:53
Speaker
You know, what I've seen is recently, last couple of years, the courts are starting to focus more and more on the physical harm, where they want to see that the stalking, that there's some physical element to that that's causing some physical harm to the victim.
00:29:17
Speaker
victim That's not the spirit, though, of the law was as it was written. And i think people are losing sight of that. And we need to go back to what the spirit of law is. Because truly, when you talk to people who survived or going through it, they would actually much prefer the physical assault than the emotional and psychological harm that they're constantly living under. there When you speak to people, they'll tell you, you know, i can I can get over black eye, but constantly living in fear, constantly having to look over my shoulder, having anxiety, having, you know, eating, trouble eating, sleeping, working, concentrating, that is way more harmful.
00:30:06
Speaker
So the charges that we see for criminal harassment, when they do go to court, we do get convictions.
00:30:17
Speaker
The sentences are fairly stiff compared to other types of like physical assaults, common assault, which you know generally isn't a very, very long sentence. We're getting, we do when they do go to court, when charges are laid for correspondence, we do get good sentences for those.
00:30:38
Speaker
I think We just need to remember the that the physical harm isn't the focus.
Effectiveness of Restraining Orders
00:30:47
Speaker
So if someone is being stalked, um is it worth getting a no contact order? i think the United States calls it a restraining order. Lay people might know it as that. um will Will that do anything?
00:31:01
Speaker
Well, that's going to be completely dependent on the type of relationship that how that this comes from. So if there was and and we do call it a restraining order here in Canada as well.
00:31:13
Speaker
So if there was a relationship where there was violence and abuse and now that relationship's over and stalking behavior has started, my advice would be to not get a restraining order.
00:31:28
Speaker
A restraining order is strictly civil, deals only with the civil courts. and it often will make it worse. It'll actually pick a fight with somebody and make it worse. And then the only recourse to have is through the civil courts.
00:31:46
Speaker
And it's, that's not enough. If the relationship ends and there's some kind of stalking behavior that started, but there was no violence, there was no threats. It was a regular relationship that just broke down.
00:32:00
Speaker
Restraining orders do work. But with resentful and rejected stalkers, they are committed to that relationship and to that obsession and a restraining order does not work.
00:32:16
Speaker
What does work is other types of orders that involve the police where there's a criminal component to it. So that means that they need to report to police, charges need to be laid and conditions need to be put on that way.
00:32:31
Speaker
So there is some teeth and backbone to charging. What we find with those type of stalkers that come from past intimate partner violence is that over time, when charges continue to be laid, they do eventually go away because they get tired of getting charged and going to jail.
00:32:54
Speaker
But if left unchecked, they will stick around for a very long time.
00:33:00
Speaker
So what still needs to change in terms of the investigation lens with respect to how stalking is investigated today versus maybe 15, 20 years ago in the advent of your career, in the middle of your career? Has there been changes or have you developed different approaches to how investigation can occur? I think technology probably plays a different role now.
Evolution of Stalking Investigations
00:33:25
Speaker
Yeah. Well, what's changed definitely is the technology for sure. That makes it more challenging, but also in some ways assists us because the police also have technology. what it what Really what I think needs to change is the training for officers to understand what criminal harassment is and that it does involve all these types of different behaviors and it does involve a lot of harm to the victim that's not just seen by physical harm.
00:34:06
Speaker
What I think often I hear quite a bit from from people, people will reach out to me and talk to me and ask me for advice, you know survivors and sometimes police officers, is there's just a really lack of understanding of how to and how to investigate and what it is. And often survivors will complain that they're not taken seriously.
00:34:28
Speaker
And because the behavior just looks like love on the outside. Oh, the the guy just really loves you. That's why he's paying all this attention to you, you know, sending messages, driving by the house. you know doing whatever, it's not love.
00:34:43
Speaker
It's an obsession that's dangerous and it's unwanted. And we have to take that very seriously. It's it's sad that a person reports to police and they aren't taken seriously and that understanding isn't there. So I think primarily there needs to be a lot of training and understanding the effects that's that stalking behavior has on someone who's escaped that violent relationship and it's profound.
00:35:16
Speaker
So for me, you know, honestly, over after all these years, I think there still needs to be more training because investigating it is challenging. And so without the understanding, it's seems to be easy to kind of ignore it or not not put in the effort that it takes to investigate it The term coercive control has sort of come into the the world of forensic health and in the world when we talk about intimate partner violence and and harassment and whatnot. um Is coercive control sort of the same thing here as harassment and stalking behaviors? Do they all sort of get mixed and bundled into one? And and do we need to pull them apart or isid okay to sort of snowball them?
Stalking as Coercive Control
00:36:11
Speaker
Well, I think it's important to recognize the differences. Stalking behavior is absolutely a form of coercive control, without a doubt. And one of the misconceptions out there is that people don't understand that you're actually being stalked when you're in an abusive relationship.
00:36:33
Speaker
it's ah It's challenging for people to turn their mind to the fact that you're in a relationship, but you're also being stalked. It's a, you know, you hear victims talk about all the time about when they were in the relationship or during the relationship that the offender, the perpetrator needed to know where they were all the time, checked their phone, needed their passwords to their email, to their to their phones, would call them dozens of times when they're out with friends or family, check in, check up on them. That is stalking behavior.
00:37:11
Speaker
That is used to control someone. It's used to keep that person under the power of another individual under the perpetrator. So yes, stalking is a form of coercive control.
00:37:27
Speaker
But it's it's a different it's a different facet to it. That just brought me back to a a case that i recently had where I met with a victim.
00:37:38
Speaker
and this was the first time her partner hurt her. And um I was surprised. It was quite a violent assault, the very first time, and they'd been together for a number of years.
00:37:50
Speaker
um And the assault was premeditated by her going out for an evening with some of her girlfriends. And he phoned her something like 200 times and sent, you know, 100 plus text messages. And she did she was just having a good time with her friends. And when she arrived home, it was like the ember that had been burning was a raging fire at this point. And he he assaulted her quite badly, strangled her as well. And when I was talking with her, I was like...
00:38:24
Speaker
I'm really concerned about your safety if you try to relieve this relationship. And we need to really put a safety plan in place for leaving this, even though it's the first time he's physically hurt you.
00:38:34
Speaker
The behaviors identified from listening to your talk in Edmonton, i was like, this is harassment. This is stalking. This is coercive control. he you know follows her on her locator app on her phone. And when she turned it off, that was like rage-fueled um a response. um So that's what i i think of and in an example that was really profound for me recently. What about you? Do you have one or two cases that really stands out for you that has stayed with you? Yeah, unfortunately, i have too many. But one of one in particular was one of my first first cases of dealing with a really
00:39:19
Speaker
severe case of criminal harassment stalking. And it was, um, it was a couple very educated, very well to do both involved in the medical field. Um, in fact, the survivor, her two, adult daughters brought her to the police station. Uh, and then I was called in to interview her and to to take her statement. And it was a long interview, took several hours and it was really hit home to me just how affected someone is by that stalking behavior once the relationship's over.
00:40:02
Speaker
She had described to me over 20 years of really horrific domestic violence, verbal, sexual, financial, physical abuse over a period of almost 25 years.
00:40:17
Speaker
And then through her courage and her help of her two daughters, her adult daughter, she left the relationship And then over a period of the next 10, 11 months, he was stalking her.
00:40:33
Speaker
The daughters were really, really switched on. They actually kind of hid their mother. So he couldn't really find her, but then he was stalking the daughters. He was stalking the grandparents.
00:40:46
Speaker
He was stalking everybody trying to find his ex-wife. and This caused so much anxiety because what survivors know is when they leave a ah violent relationship, that's the most dangerous time for them because the offender becomes very angry. So the stalking behavior triggers that because they know now that yes, it's not over and they know just how violent this person can be. And so it causes incredible amount of anxiety. I was really taken in that interview over those hours just how traumatized this woman was just sitting there talking to me about the fact that he's calling, the fact that he's texting.
00:41:37
Speaker
it was It was profound. it took a long time to make him go away, but he eventually did. i had to be charged and arrested several times.
00:41:47
Speaker
but he eventually did. So it had a happy ending, but I'm sure to this day, she probably still lives with a lot of the repercussions of that relationship.
00:42:00
Speaker
That would make me fearful of dating in some ways. um Holy cow. um I also think about how um there's a lot of examples of, I think, movies, like romance movies, that seem to normalize stalking. As I look at them and watch them with a different lens, you know, Love Actually, for example, where that cue card scene, he's declaring his love to his best friend's wife, ah completely inappropriate, but it's celebrated as like sweet. He shows up uninvited. He pressures her emotionally. um
00:42:37
Speaker
What's the other one? Say anything. Wear his boombox scene outside her window. She has rejected him a number of times, but it's grand romance when he shows up with this boombox outside her window and we all think, wow, this is romantic.
00:42:54
Speaker
What kind of message is that sending? Oh, I know. Our popular culture, social media, entertainment industry, we romanticize the that never give up attitude.
00:43:11
Speaker
But really, when you think about that on the other side of it, so we we think, oh, way to go. that Look at that guy. just doesn't give up. He's determined. He just really loves her. But when you're on the other side of that, How concerning and upsetting that actually is. That you've said no, and that person doesn't listen.
00:43:33
Speaker
And that person refuses to take your no. But we romanticize it, and it's unfortunate. And unfortunately as well, that has seeped its way into the professional world. and into service providers.
00:43:49
Speaker
And sometimes service providers see it that way too. And the courts sometimes see it that way. And it's really unfortunate because if you just step back for a moment, put yourself in the shoes of the person saying no,
00:44:06
Speaker
you can then maybe try to understand it because, you know, just think about it in any, ah if you're just a person and someone walks up to you and asks you for a dollar and and you say no, and they start saying, well, no, give me a dollar. And then they start reaching for your wallet or whatever. Like, that's not okay. You said no. It's the same way with this, but we really have romanticized it and just treated it as they're just determined.
00:44:34
Speaker
So Jeff, as you're retired now, you're needing to pass on all this wisdom and this experience to the the next generation of investigators and detectives, and hopefully to the public in general, yourre attending conferences.
00:44:49
Speaker
What is giving you hope? There's always gotta be a hope, I hope. There is. um i think,
00:45:01
Speaker
Just the the sheer number of initiatives out there that never used to be there, the resources that are available now that were never there before, of the number of people like yourself that are engaged and involved, podcasts that are happening.
00:45:20
Speaker
It does give me hope because the more people that know, the more people that understand it, the more help there is there for people. It's not about just putting people in jail.
00:45:30
Speaker
It's about getting support for those survivors, for people going through it. And there's much more support now than there ever was before. Because long after the stalking stops, the repercussions of that continue for survivors and they need people like yourself and other service service providers to help them. And it's really great to see how much there is and how much attention this is getting now.
00:46:00
Speaker
My hope is that our media and our movies start to de-romanticize these kinds of behaviors or call them out um for the scariness and the bizarreness that some of them are, especially when we look back at some of those movies from the 80s and 90s that we think of as very romantic.
00:46:20
Speaker
um Any final thoughts, like a message to survivors, advocates, fellow officers that you want to leave us with today?
Support for Survivors
00:46:29
Speaker
Well, to survivors, I have to say, stay strong.
00:46:36
Speaker
Keep going. It's hard. It's frustrating. It seems like it's never going to end, but get support. Reach out for resources and help and you'll get through it and you can survive it.
00:46:51
Speaker
And To the officers and service providers, keep up the good work. It's hard, it's frustrating, but but keep it up because people need people need your support.
00:47:04
Speaker
that Without it, it gets to be too much for someone to deal with on their own.
00:47:10
Speaker
Thank you so much, Jeff, for your conversation today and helping us all think beyond the badge of this concerning crime. Today we were joined by Jeff Anderson, a retired detective formerly with Calgary Police Service, in Episode 4, Beyond the Badge, Investigating Stalking in Canada.
00:47:28
Speaker
If you found this episode valuable, please subscribe and share. We welcome respectful debate and comments below. And stay tuned for future episodes where we will continue to explore Beyond the Rape Kit from Canada's Forensic Frontline.
00:47:42
Speaker
If you've recently been hurt or assaulted or you're being stalked or harassed, please seek help. Medical care at your closest emergency department and contact your local police service or victim service organization.
00:47:54
Speaker
This is forensic nurse practitioner, Anna Varto, and Beyond the Rape Kit, Canada's Forensic Frontline, a podcast by the Canadian Forensic Nurses Association. Thank you for listening.
00:48:05
Speaker
Stay safe.