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Can a rave in Garbicz help humanity evolve? Modeling an alternative community with Fritz Windish
36 Plays2 months ago
DJ and co-founder of Garbicz Festival Fritz Windish joins Peter to discuss how music has been a catalyst for community and a testing ground for social innovation since the days of “raves in caves” – all the way to now. We also discuss the ways that alternative, cooperative, experimental social structures birthed at parties and festivals can survive in the city and everyday life.
Themes in this episode:
- Inclusion vs exclusion
- identity and belonging
- evolutionary change
- reconnection and remembering
- experience and curation
- purpose through and beyond work
Shownotes:
- Garbicz Website: https://garbiczfestival.com/
- DJ sets by Fritz Windish (Fritz Dyckerhoff): https://soundcloud.com/soukie-windish
- Holzmarkt Website: https://www.holzmarkt.com/
- Books by Hanzi Freinacht: The Listening Society; Nordic Ideology
Recommended
Transcript
The Need for Human Evolution
00:00:13
Speaker
Techno-Spiritual Crossings explores the time that we're living in, a time of rapidly accelerating technological change. The change in our environment requires a pressing need for human evolution too, individually, socially, spiritually.
00:00:30
Speaker
We're putting together interviews with people on the forefront of this change, artists, scientists, and spiritual teachers who can help us navigate this transformation.
Fritz Windisch: From Cultural Management to DJ
00:00:41
Speaker
On today's podcast, we have Fritz Windisch. Fritz is a house and techno DJ in Berlin and the head of production and art curation at the Garbage Festival in Poland.
00:00:54
Speaker
He got his start in music, planning, hosting, and performing at techno parties in Buenos Aires and Bremen. He also spent years in cultural management, helping artists learn the business side of their creative careers before he transitioned to DJing full-time.
00:01:11
Speaker
We spoke to him at his recording studio in a cultural quarter of Berlin, Holzmarkt, about the ways artists build caretaking communities and experience growing pains.
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't really said so much about um what Techno Spiritual Crossings is, but I did send you the the the invitation and this being a way for me to be more public with my spiritual side in a way.
00:01:41
Speaker
But I'm also come from a yeah, a technological background, having worked in Silicon Valley and things like this. And undeniably we're living in a time of accelerating change, accelerating advancement in technology.
Techno Music and Community Building
00:01:56
Speaker
And this is also forcing or like pressing in on us in a way that we need to change or evolve both individually or societally.
00:02:05
Speaker
So this is really what the the podcast is really wanting to explore this intersection. between this rapidly advancing technology and our personal or spiritual growth or societal growth.
00:02:19
Speaker
You're here today to offer your perspective or sit in this intersection and especially wanted to to have the interview because you you've already mentioned it, but you've spent a lot of time in building community.
00:02:34
Speaker
So Fritz, I'm curious to hear your perspective about building communities around music. um Techno music is a logical consequence out of the drums, out of the heartbeat that we have. So I think it brings people together but because it it is the the thing where everybody can relate to.
00:02:56
Speaker
This is why it's so successful and this is why it brings people from all over the world together and around this topic about celebrating and communities
Transhumanism and Evolutionary Pathways
00:03:08
Speaker
can grow.
00:03:09
Speaker
And this is always was also always a problem for the politicians that when people came together party and to... because this is the time where you exchange and where you speak a lot and where you fantasize and where you have visions and all of these... this is when it becomes dangerous for the government. This is why they shut down so many things and the church shut shut down all this.
00:03:33
Speaker
Even if I think that Jesus was kind of the first DJ, he had raves in caves where the women were the first time allowed to drink red wine. And so he became kind of famous and this was not good for the Romans that wanted to control everything. So they shut his parties down.
00:03:49
Speaker
so And then they went in the underground and had parties in the caves and somewhere else and met in clandestine places. And so, and and now same thing happened in Berlin in, in after the wall came down and,
00:04:05
Speaker
I guess basically the the main idea of technologies is we need, like I'm transhumanist, like I believe in this, so I think it's also a logical consequence out of the evolution. And we need to make our life longer, make our intelligence higher to ah to become, to awake.
00:04:25
Speaker
Because then we can literally live post-material.
Principles of Garbage Festival
00:04:30
Speaker
If you've done like 90 years of your and kind of your material puberty and you experienced everything, you experienced every sex you wanted, you experienced every diamond you could buy, you can see everything that you could get, and if you could live longer for another 100 years,
00:04:49
Speaker
then the chance that people start to think about more like giving it the about the society and making it better and really think about their personal evolution but also the evolution of society, it's a matter of time. I think this is why ah longer life is very as ah it's is very important for the the society.
00:05:12
Speaker
So in this case, I'm really on to, I don't know, DNA manipulation and I don't know, if it helps, it helps. I think this is the only way to get into the cosmos at some point.
00:05:26
Speaker
certainly from the transhumanist point of view, advancement of technology, AI, and the evolution of consciousness. Sounds like you're saying like these two go together very well.
00:05:40
Speaker
um I just want to bring it back then to the project that you've been working on so much for the past, well, seven years, I guess you said, but um certainly this year the at the festival.
00:05:55
Speaker
Can you say a little bit about what are some of the the ideas or principles that are that are going into creating and organizing this festival that represent this better version of of society?
00:06:12
Speaker
um well I think it can give a glimpse of how it could feel mmm basically I must say this the knowledge that is there on garbage that we have is kind of the food's knowledge of 20 years of party so it's really professional and knowledge of how to make a good party and what it takes to party for five days and still being in a good mood you know um and this knowledge comes from yeah it it comes from back from a love parade over bar 25 osgood the fusion festival which is our mother it's all knowledge in all our like in the whole production team and the whole crew the knowledge that they gathered like over years and years and years they cannot they they never sat down and did an exam on partying
00:07:03
Speaker
but somehow it makes something with your mind and your body and and everything if you experience this way for a long time and then you can give it to other people and this is what garbage makes special that all this knowledge comes together at this point and we know exactly where to put what and how it works did you have a nice party and then people come to learn from us somehow and take the knowledge back to their festivals and like this it functions that it spreads over the world because this community is because of the music because we don't have this language language barrier in the in the in the electronic music this is why it's so successful also worldwide and um I guess that young people from emerging markets if you say markets in this way but um like India or ah especially South America
00:07:55
Speaker
coming to our festival or they coming to burning man or to the other burns that exist and other small boutique festival to take the same path as we do they can learn from this and take it back to their countries and help to create their societies that are more equal because i think this is what it's basically about people coming to garbage on a Thursday and they're super hyped up and they're coming with all their energy from from their urban surroundings and from their stress and whatever and they're coming there with kind of their Starbucks mentality and they want their coffee now and they want their parking slot now and they want their camp now and it's very stressful this first thing and it's also what I say to my crew like be just be polite embrace them embrace their stress like
00:08:39
Speaker
This is our job, yeah to calm them down. And then they're coming and after the first like the first night, it's always like blah blah, everybody's getting super wasted and drunk and like all over the place because this energy has to be released.
00:08:53
Speaker
And then you already feel on Friday and on Saturday that it becomes calmer and calmer and then people become equal.
Festivals as Cultural Exchanges
00:09:00
Speaker
The rich people and the poor people and the old people and the young people and the yeah and the And the males and the females and all these energies mixed up and suddenly you're all equal and there is no, there's also no time anymore.
00:09:13
Speaker
This is why it's important to, these one day raves, they don't bring nothing at all. Like you need these. five days a week or four days, I don't know, at least that you haven't slept, that you don't know which day it is. It's round about Saturday always, which is fine. and then And then experience this out of time being with friends, making new friends, and suddenly you feel super connected.
00:09:38
Speaker
yeah And I think to give this safe space that people can experience this. it's It's important for better societies to get them out without commercials, no sponsors, and better no cell phones.
00:09:52
Speaker
yeah We don't have any reception anyway. mean they can take their pictures if they want, if they like to, which is not necessary I guess. I think it's better to experience it with your full body and not looking on a screen.
00:10:04
Speaker
um
00:10:06
Speaker
And then it's the place where we're doing it. I mean, it's ah it's a it's a natural reserve. ah The place itself is not natural reserve, but it's in a natural reserve, surrounded by a natural reserve. Really connecting with the nature and being responsible, parting responsible with the nature.
00:10:22
Speaker
This also gives you... um a new connection because when you're when you're open and you celebrate in nature it's the same as a long walk or something but being four days connected there is very important for many young people that normally live in the cities and do not experience this kind of nature retreats.
00:10:46
Speaker
I want to come back to one of the things that you mentioned this idea of exchange, like people that are doing other parties recognize garbage as a place to to come and learn.
00:10:59
Speaker
um i was just wondering if you see the Garbage Festival as part of like a node and a network where everybody is exchanging ideas and ways to bring people together and create this community.
00:11:15
Speaker
Or are you saying like the people that have gravitated to ah garbage are are people that are aligned around this and that's why people might seek you out to learn something about community building and right around a festival?
00:11:30
Speaker
I'm just trying to understand like it's really in service to this question of you've been doing this for so long. How do you find ways to um give this knowledge back?
00:11:42
Speaker
But you were already
Balancing Commercial Interests and Community
00:11:44
Speaker
answering that a few minutes ago. So I just wondered if you could elaborate on how this exchange takes place and
00:11:54
Speaker
um Well, it is not to make people understand. It is not a festival. We we have some kind of workshops and stuff, but it's not a festival of lectures and things where you really exchange institutional knowledge.
00:12:09
Speaker
It's more about the experience of um a body experience and experience of the mind. m And it's experience of peace, I think. We have a peacekeeping impact with what we are doing.
00:12:23
Speaker
And normally when, for example, the guys young people want to start a festival, the first thing they do nowadays is they need to sponsor. the like they They don't even look for anything else, like we need the money to set it up.
00:12:37
Speaker
They don't even think about maybe find the crew first, maybe build a community first and then start the festival or just do a festival with your crew, keep it simple, keep it easy and let it grow slowly and then something beautiful can evolve. but This idea of commercializing the festival scene, this is what I think is, everybody should earn money yeah for their work, this is fine, but making money as a festival owner is something different.
00:13:08
Speaker
So I think there you have to split between the commercial rave scene and a festival network, which from my point of view is still not existing so well.
00:13:18
Speaker
We are all connected. We know each other and we meet for Eclipse now in Argentina where we all, all festivals doing a festival together. And there you get a lot of knowledge, but I think You mentioned Fusion being the the mother festival and ah Burning Man, which and I've been to a couple of times.
00:13:39
Speaker
and clearly like these principles of taking it out of the, the economics sphere. Like there are no corporate sponsors for, for burning man.
00:13:51
Speaker
So yeah, there is this division of doing a festival where you're inviting, you're inviting people and people come because there's a, there's a certain philosophy or principles. Why, why this experience is going to be different.
00:14:07
Speaker
Um,
00:14:10
Speaker
um with yeah Can it sense I tell something? We were talking a lot about in our crew about our philosophy and our principles and the vision and and then we just think we it's better to keep it abstract and everybody should experience on their own what it means for them. So you need some kind of boundaries and I think it's good to have some kind of rules and some settings like this no means no and how to treat the nature and everything but don't be too
Funding Community-Focused Festivals
00:14:40
Speaker
teachery about this.
00:14:42
Speaker
you know i think I think it's also good that Tomorrowland exists. The more raves in the world exist the better it is for the whole world. It doesn't matter if they're commercial or not, but if you really want to exchange and and and get the feeling and also connect with the right people and have the time, then you should experience it on a smaller event or on a more sophisticated event where people are doing this because of because it's their passion.
00:15:08
Speaker
um And I think it's important to have and a better network on this also over the year so that you can exchange better, that you can also share costs and everything on software and technology that you need to do a festival to learn how sustainability can work on festivals.
00:15:29
Speaker
And so ADE is kind of a connection point for this. But I would rather get like boutique festivals together with the same mindset that all put the same values a little bit on their agenda and forming kind of a union that you can um establish more less a common ground where young people can come in and learn and So but this should from my point of view funded by the state a foundation or something because we're literally doing work we're doing social work like theaters do and like the Opera do or did or what else like this is why they've this is in Germany especially state funded because it's for the people for the public to educate them and um to give them um culture and I think now
00:16:18
Speaker
we are serious, we are not just a commercial rave where people making money and people are getting wasted. So it's more about this experience and this has to be taken seriously and i I would especially garbage in this border of Poland and Germany which has a tragic history and we are really bringing people back together, young people at the border.
00:16:40
Speaker
and We are a European Union project from three companies out of Europe and this is not being seen somehow from from the government. It's more like, ah what are they doing there?
00:16:52
Speaker
I think we should go to Brussels and ask them, but the way is way too complicated for a small festival. So would wouldd be nice to have people to
Inclusivity and Societal Development in Festivals
00:17:00
Speaker
support this kind of structure, get a foundation, get found two or three jobs,
00:17:05
Speaker
funded that just taking care of this and getting funding for other festivals so that we can at least pay our people well because this is a problem that we have that the crew at some point breaks down because they we cannot afford paying the people sufficiently that they stay with us so they need to get back into their other jobs and then they don't have the power to support the festival anymore and then you need more young and in new people but it would be nice without sponsoring to get external fundings from tax money, actually.
00:17:39
Speaker
Yeah, there's something about this whole conversation that really strikes me about festivals. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're inviting everybody in to celebrate.
00:17:51
Speaker
right One of the other conversations that we're going to talk about is this inclusion and exclusion. Sometimes it's better just to exclude certain people so that you know accidents don't happen or conflict is minimized or a number of different things like this so that you're essentially vibing with the people that you want to vibe with.
00:18:14
Speaker
Yet festival culture basically says everyone's invited. and well where we will make our way through it. um Seems like that's that's the the work that you're talking about. This is the social work that that you're doing.
00:18:31
Speaker
um Is this part of what what you see as the social work? Is like no matter where anybody is on their path, like festival culture is ah is a doorway into self-reflection, self-development or a better version of society or these types of things.
00:18:52
Speaker
I think festival culture is it's not ah better society, what's happening there. but And you always need the balance. This is why we have, for example, in our festival, we have this huge crew in comparison to the guests that are coming.
00:19:10
Speaker
We have like, round about about the half of the people are on our grounds without paying the ticket because they're working, they're doing something, they are artists, they're participating.
00:19:22
Speaker
yeah And they're creating and they're keeping the space. And so that we can afford having other people in that do not know how it works. So if you just do it with service suppliers and you just have a couple of companies and two hats on top that are like making the festival, then might have not, then you cannot educate. like you need this amount of people to keep the vibe and then you can let people in and include them.
00:19:56
Speaker
You cannot also not include now 5,000 barbarians. This would also not work. So you have to look a little bit how many of these guys can come in. This is ah it's a topic what Fusion also did, like how to get the tickets to what people...
00:20:10
Speaker
And so if we just open it up to the complete like to public at all, then we could not control who's coming and who's not. This would could be a problem in the end, that you have more violence on the ground, which we don't have at all at the moment, but could happen if we cannot control our audience a bit.
00:20:30
Speaker
So it's a it's ah it's a learning process, but you have to gatekeep a bit. and The problem is definitely the money somehow. This is why we're offering a lot of volunteer shifts so that can people can also participate the festival without paying the entrance.
00:20:46
Speaker
But when you keep a festival smaller and our grounds are like, it's like last year was too big. Now we cut down again 2000 tickets and make it smaller again. But then to be sustainable and get break even,
00:21:00
Speaker
even if it's very complicated so the ticket price cannot be lower
00:21:06
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for talking about so much about the festival. It is, it is very inspiring. And I wanted to ask you Holtzmarkt as well as as the Garbage Festival.
00:21:19
Speaker
And I think like the contrast for me is lush land in Poland and connecting to nature every day for an extended period of
Integrating Festival Growth into Urban Life
00:21:28
Speaker
time. And Holtzmarkt is in the, in the center of Berlin.
00:21:33
Speaker
And I'm thinking about like going to a retreat or going to do deep work with a shaman. you know The idea is like you take this this growth or this transformation and you try to bring it back into your and to your daily life. You try to integrate it into your daily life.
00:21:52
Speaker
So also being in part of the Holtzmark community, I just wondered if you could give any insights as to how to bring, um the growth that comes from being in a, in a festival, which is bounded by time into daily life, into daily life in the city.
00:22:13
Speaker
That's a good question. I mean, integrating your experiences is always a challenge, your personal experience for your personal growth. um But what I realized is that people from our festival really come back with more energy than before.
00:22:31
Speaker
Like they're really satisfied and I think it's kind of also storing energy for the bad days and for for the grey days and it's also good to give it to other people.
00:22:43
Speaker
Like your experience, what you had, talk about it and so that other people get kind of, that is contagious. kind of garbage fever that you always have when you have it from Burning Man or from yeah ah you know yet this energy that you cant that you that you come home with.
00:23:02
Speaker
This ground here at Holzmarkt is also a very historic place yeah out of this bar 25. m movement in the beginning and then the and then the Carter Blau with the club and it brings back the community to the city so the the basic idea is I can see here I'm i'm not the official I'm holds marked public relations a person but it's to bring back the village into the city
00:23:35
Speaker
So open it up so it's open, everybody can come in. It's a marketplace and everything and the the you can go to the river and experience the community here, which is here in the buildings here. We are working here, we are celebrating here, we're having our bakery here, we're having our kita here, like the the kindergarten, we're having our wine bar here, the cafe and it's the same people every day working here and then people from outside coming in saying hello,
00:24:03
Speaker
and experience this kind of vibe which slows them down and gives them something back from the city and from the nature to to leave the the whole area on the river like a re-naturalized.
00:24:16
Speaker
We have a gardener here it that brings back the nature into this area. We have the ducks, we have the beavers. It's a little tiny glimpse of how cities could actually look like if there would not be like glass offices everywhere.
00:24:33
Speaker
And um you just
Personal Challenges and Creative Pursuits
00:24:34
Speaker
need to be brave. And the problem is that of obviously this is not making money. It is because the ground that Holzmarkt and you could possibly he put like five fat towers of 20 floors and rent it out and you make a lot of money with this area that you have. But they decided to keep a marketplace open, not to build another building, um to make the buildings not so high and so on and so on and so on. that In the end, they don't have enough square meters to be super profitable.
00:25:06
Speaker
It is barely balancing out. and yeah And the problem is also that the city is not really supportive. It was, but then things changed and now um it's a struggle still.
00:25:19
Speaker
And it will be a struggle always. But also when you embrace the struggle and it becomes part of your daily life, then it's also okay. If the whole crew is just like... Yeah, okay, we'll be always like this, we're always struggling.
00:25:32
Speaker
Then, um it's and everybody's in the same boat, then it's also okay to to carry this burden as a crew. And this is what they're doing really good here, I think.
00:25:43
Speaker
so So all friends and acquaintances hang together with a lot of support from outside as well. from famous people also that support us all over the world and the whole model of the economics here is a Genossenschaft which is a special model.
00:26:00
Speaker
It's very interesting but it's too complicated now to explain and I'm not an expert in explaining the whole structure how it's built up here.
00:26:09
Speaker
So we met five months ago at the Collaboration Incubator. And at the Collaboration Incubator, we used this vocalize project as a way to build a group story by answering the question, who are you right now?
00:26:26
Speaker
So I'm actually taking these questions the same question into these interviews and just asking everybody to to respond to that. I'd just like to ask you that question now. Who are you right now?
00:26:39
Speaker
Okay. um I'm at the moment a fish swimming against the stream.
00:26:49
Speaker
but my own stream it's ah it's hard like it's I know what my gut tells me but my mind is um still stronger so but it's getting it's getting better year after year and I'm getting somewhere but I swim against my own stream um which costs lot of energy at the moment but it's also satisfying like to get its I'm I'm getting into an unstable world at the moment trying to be an author and write a book um without any
00:27:25
Speaker
I don't know financial background so I just like which which means I can spend less time in the studio um have to cut down like going out and all these things that I really like and sit down and be alone actually I love surround being surrounded by people but as a writer you have to choose isolation at some point to write things down to put a spin on it you've already said a lot about this but what do you feel and like your your calling is right now
00:28:01
Speaker
My calling is definitely to finish this story. This is the main priority that I have. and I mean, there are other callings, but i put them more in the future.
00:28:13
Speaker
I know that there are more things to come, but right now at the moment, my calling is to finish this story and get it out there. So I see myself.
00:28:25
Speaker
Is it too soon to ask what is the story about? Well it's ah it's a very complex story but no I can... it's it's not too early.
Cooperation vs. Competition in Human Evolution
00:28:35
Speaker
It's a spiritual story but um ironically speaking about spirituality without denying that it's real.
00:28:45
Speaker
Because we all like... it's it's not esoteric but um it makes fun out of this esoteric approach towards spirituality. um But deep in the heart, it's spiritual. And yeah it's about nature, finding back love, finding back laughter, which are all the the the weapons that we have against fear.
00:29:08
Speaker
So it's, yeah, and this is all packed in, i basically tell the story from the shaman to the clown. which is always this trickster, the Heioka in the and the North American tradition of a Comida del Arte.
00:29:22
Speaker
So how these um this world, um how you say it, when somebody can change the world from one like from the cosmos to here, from the spiritual world to the real world, like this was always the...
00:29:37
Speaker
yeah like Yeah, like and like a wizard. They always, the shaman and the clown, they were all, m they could change worlds. And they were always very important in this in their societies to keep the balance. like Or the harlequin was allowed to make fun out of the king.
00:29:55
Speaker
Like it's always this balance thing. And also the shamans um and the Heiokas back in the tribes, their responsibility was so to keep the balance in the tribe and to see things with humor and make things not so serious because life is not so serious as we all think.
00:30:17
Speaker
and it's pretty simple and yeah I tried to tell this story up to now and this is all packed in it's a it's magic realism it's all packed in a kind of a fantasy story which which takes place in the real time now yeah the only final thing is there anything else that that you feel like you wanted to say that didn't get to say so far and I just want to say that I think that you need what i from the beginning, like surround yourself with the right people. i mean right people or wrong people, but surround yourself with people that you like and that you can connect with.
00:30:58
Speaker
and then beautiful things will happen. I think cooperation is the key and not competition in every case, and especially in the future, because there are only two ways in how to deal with humanity. you can diminish the humanity and kill a lot of people, or you have to harmonize.
00:31:21
Speaker
the the many people that we are and like you can either destroy it or go on the harmony side and I think the latter option is the better one so I think cooperation is the only thing how we can survive on this planet
00:31:38
Speaker
Thank you Fritz You're welcome
00:31:54
Speaker
What an exciting conversation you had with Fritz, Peter. um There were so many ideas about um community and community building, the links between art and commercial commercialism, capitalism.
00:32:15
Speaker
um Uh, inclusion and exclusion. wow I just found a lot of it really interesting. what were some of your main takeaways, both of you?
00:32:27
Speaker
Well, I think it bears mentioning that when I first met Fritz, we were in a weekend seminar together, you know, a bunch of people coming coming together really to explore alternative ways of living in community.
00:32:43
Speaker
So everybody that was there kind had some ideas about what the future might be like. And so naturally, Fritz was bringing in his perspective and his experiences of of organizing the music festival.
00:32:57
Speaker
And so I really wanted to follow up and have a deeper conversation with him about what goes into that. Like, why are you so passionate about it? But I wanted to talk to him so we could actually have a conversation that considers that music and bringing people together and experiencing a different kind of culture, even if it's for a few days, um is educational. And it's part of how we change personally and how we can change collectively.
00:33:26
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I think it's really interesting talking about how festivals fit into the cultural space.
Capitalism, Community Initiatives, and Sustainability
00:33:37
Speaker
There's maybe a question about the necessity or maybe not necessity of being so inclusive that you're including um illegal substances as part of as part of the festival.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think it just points me to this broader question of how exactly do you do you ensure that you create and cultivate a healthy community, right? So I think a lot has to do with rules of engagement and essentially, as Fritz mentioned as well, setting boundaries.
00:34:11
Speaker
and it's It's really hard to find the right answer, really like how much control is enough control so that it doesn't really dilute the entire point of the festival. And your question, Emily, like directly points to that, right? Like, um who decides?
00:34:27
Speaker
And if people disagree with you, how much are they allowed to do their own thing? And since you've done like very similar things with respect to organizing communities, Peter, do you have like any insights on what works and what doesn't when it comes to rule setting and boundary setting?
00:34:46
Speaker
I mean, just based on working as a coach and facilitator, it's just going into even a small conversation of four or five, six people that you set ground rules. Like, okay, if we're going to engage, like, what are the rules of engagement? what um And that is unique, really, and to the group of people that you're speaking with.
00:35:11
Speaker
Because people need different rules in order to feel to feel safe in a particular place. I think what Fritz is talking about is that...
00:35:24
Speaker
They're doing something similar, but by experience, not by by having written rules of engagement. But it's it's a in a way very nuanced to say like, well, if you know more than half the people at the festival are there to role model what the rules are, then things naturally balance out. I thought that was compelling.
00:35:52
Speaker
compelling I really love that as well. And a big contrast also to what he's saying that if, okay, if you're just going to charge 150 euros and then have a big festival that lasts for two days, then you don't really have a chance to experience this role, this behavioral role modeling of of what it's like to live in community differently. Otherwise it is just a commercial venture where...
00:36:18
Speaker
you know, it's fun to listen to music, lose your mind and go home and start work on Monday. But I think they're trying to actually trying to accomplish something different.
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah, think I think he points out some very interesting challenges as to how to make such a model scale. As in the more people you're involved and the bigger that an initiative becomes, it's really hard to preserve the original intent of the thing.
00:36:49
Speaker
What do you think? I think this really points to the fact that in our capitalist society, everybody thinks that growth is always good ah at at all costs, and with any consequence.
00:37:03
Speaker
And the truth of a community-based initiative like this, which this is where it comes to exclusion, may be that a certain size, a certain limit, is the best possible size.
00:37:19
Speaker
It doesn't always need to become bigger doesn't always need to have you know more well-known acts year after year after year. um And maybe some of the inclusion, cooperation also means turn-taking or sharing. You know you don't go to the festival this year because you you've experienced, you've learned some of the knowledge. Instead of going back to the same festival again and again, maybe you reach out with your own community within your own community
00:37:51
Speaker
and um replicate that community rather than scaling one big festival. Coming back to what saying about scale and also what you're saying about growth, it's not necessarily that you need it to grow, but if it's a good thing,
00:38:07
Speaker
it will tend to grow just because people want to be a part of it, you know, like a completely non-commercial thing that started as bonfires on the beach became Burning Man, which year after year after year has grown and grown and grown, not because anybody's making money on it, it's because people want to partake in a in a culture that you can experience a different way of living.
00:38:31
Speaker
And as we talked about also in the interview, then How do we bring that alternate reality back into everyday city life?
00:38:42
Speaker
What part of my mind, what part of my heart was touched that I really want to to keep with me? And I'm going to bring it into my everyday life as much as possible.
00:38:56
Speaker
I'm thinking that. You know, that's part of the way we grow and change. That's part of personal change. If you're just working one-on-one with a shaman, it's the same thing.
Festival Culture's Role in Personal Development
00:39:08
Speaker
You're taking something of that experience and trying to incorporate it back into your life.
00:39:15
Speaker
I was thinking about what Fritz said about Holtzmarkt and how it's this Gnaussenschaft community, which he didn't totally explain. But um what I understand about...
00:39:28
Speaker
about Holtzmarkt is that they hold a lease for that property um and together they pay the lease. But there are some there are some people who you know run the daycare and some people that run the wine bar and some people that run the club, et cetera, et cetera.
00:39:47
Speaker
and not all of those spaces are profitable. Some of them are ah more for experimentation. Some of them are more for the good of the community group.
00:39:59
Speaker
um and some of them are more for the public, and that together they take on the burden of ah they of their lease, and they take on the responsibility of of money, and even if they all struggle, they're all in the struggle together, which makes it less of a struggle for each individual person.
00:40:22
Speaker
um And that, i think, like that is where If you're going to be in that struggle together with your community, those are the people that you need to be really tight with and really rely on the fact that everybody is part of that struggle, which is maybe where this 150 people or, you know, the the that that community has to be limited at a certain at a certain point so that everybody really believes that they're part of it and responsible to it.
00:40:56
Speaker
Is there anything else you want to say about this episode? I mean, there are some really interesting interesting points that have been made all along, right? Like even with Fritz, I think he is in general agreement when he says that communities need to and should grow organically, start organically and like commercializing them or not should be an afterthought and it shouldn't really be in the forefront of actually starting something.
00:41:20
Speaker
Which actually leads me back to this entire notion of how this is like super important and relevant in 2024 given the fact that we are sort of losing this spirit of like interacting with communities around you and being part being a part of communities around you and also feeling empowered to start something.
00:41:39
Speaker
And just just seeing seeing things like these evolve from the ground up also kind of tells you that you can be a part of such moments or like even initiate such moments.
00:41:52
Speaker
And that's how like you connect with the people around you and the spirit of cooperation, which is also what Fritz thinks is the main takeaway after having organized this for so long.
00:42:05
Speaker
I really agree. that is That is the most clear takeaway from this interview. Is like, start small. Start with your crew. See how that goes.
00:42:17
Speaker
See how well you can create this this atmosphere and cooperation with a ah smaller group of people. And then decide if you want to invite others into it.
00:42:29
Speaker
And if so, how? Um...
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's it's pointing to the importance of having those stronger bonds with ah with a smaller group of people.
00:42:46
Speaker
There are some other topics that came up. i'm I'm very curious to see what you guys think about it. For instance, he he he says that humans need to live longer because the longer they live, the more they can think about Matters of the spirit and evolving. The more time they have to wake up or the more time we have to wake up. we just I mean, that's what I took away from If we could live just another 20 years, then we're actually living longer into our wisdom years. And therefore, we are more likely to...
00:43:18
Speaker
have our consciousness be evolving for a greater period of time which will help us um i mean i think it's important that we have podcasts like this and talk about issues uh in the interest of raising consciousness of seeing how how can we better organize ourselves in terms of of groups and society but at the same time somehow Every piece plays a part of the puzzle.
00:43:48
Speaker
So like that the tension between opposites and the conflict that that causes is also part of what we're here to experience.
00:44:02
Speaker
If we all become the same, then why be human? I mean, it's... It's not about us becoming the same, I feel. It's just about like what we prioritize as society. I guess this whole aspect of growing and becoming wise is not the centerpiece of how humans are functioning in this day and age.
00:44:26
Speaker
And it was maybe like a thousand, couple of thousand years ago, this was the central piece of everyone's life. Like how do we actually become wiser and become better humans? And somehow, I mean, the emphasis on that seems to be a bit lost if I can say that.
00:44:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i'm I'm mostly talking in the context of Christian spirituality and how that evolved like a couple, more than a couple thousand years ago. Maybe like 2,500 years ago. Yeah, 2,500 years ago. More the time of Socrates, the Buddha.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that sounds like super fucking chilled out. and Yeah, it does. Yeah. never Never mind the never mindd suffering that surrounded these things. i Yeah, that that was the other thing i was thinking about. you know like There's a certain like ah hierarchy of needs here, right? like At a certain level, if you're studying philosophy in the Socratic school, that means that you have a lot of other needs already met.
00:45:30
Speaker
And there are a lot of people for whom those needs were not met. And the sort of um devastation and power of capitalism is that it met the basic needs of so many more people in terms of the but scale.
00:45:47
Speaker
around the world, but then it's kind of at the same time stopped people from overcoming that, you know, basic needs for food survival, safety. Then people just got trapped in that loop of of wanting more and more and more of that as more and more and more things developed.
00:46:06
Speaker
And um the evolving of that scale, I think, in a way became harder because there were more and more choices. And I think we like having more.
00:46:20
Speaker
It's just... It's taken us a while to figure out the negative consequences of continuing to want and want without considering the greater consequences on the earth.
00:46:35
Speaker
And each other. And communities. I'm not sure that... communism or capitalism or authoritarianism makes significant differences in terms of like the chronic failures of of of human behavior Those things continue to repeat.
00:46:58
Speaker
um I'm not trying to defend capitalism, I think there are some there are some weaknesses of capitalism that hopefully we can begin to address. um One of them, I think very appropriately you name it, is just... Growth without boundaries. Yeah, growth without boundaries, yeah.
00:47:16
Speaker
And also, it goes back to what Fritz was saying about how this particular role in society is not really well compensated or prioritized.
00:47:27
Speaker
and Because, i mean, what is the incentive, right, in a very capitalist sense to have community leaders, so to speak, be well paid? um And it's actually a really important question as to why, right? Like, because, i mean, and
00:47:45
Speaker
So, I mean, there is a stark difference to how communities kind of exist within the Western world and the Eastern world. I think in the Eastern world or places that are more populated by design is, uh, I mean, community living is like a very central aspect of how people live. Right. And in the Western world, when you come here and look at it, it just feels like this has to be created because there is a lot of emphasis on living a more individualistic life.
00:48:15
Speaker
And then you can see this delta starting to emerge where communities are not being organically formed. and And this also has kind of manifested in the loneliness epidemic here.
00:48:30
Speaker
And given the fact that the world has evolved in such a way, I'm wondering why why isn't there more emphasis on on on funding such programs or funding more community initiatives like this or essentially essentially thinking thinking of this particular problem as a public health initiative.
00:48:59
Speaker
Very good point. there's a People have written about this. This Hansi Freinacht book. Mm-hmm. I forgot the title of it now. We'll put in the show notes.
00:49:11
Speaker
and basically talking about what we need to to evolve in into ah better version of society. But it includes ministries that actually do fund the the things that we're talking about here.
00:49:24
Speaker
um But at the same time... That kind of thinking and organization, the author also says, really only works in in countries or societies where there's already a progressive enough floor or a foundation for supporting an evolution of that.
00:49:47
Speaker
Many countries in the world do not.
00:49:53
Speaker
Well, this has been a great discussion. I'm really glad that, Peter, you found Fritz and that he's been a part of the conversation.
00:50:07
Speaker
All right, see you later. Bye, guys. Over now.
00:50:19
Speaker
Thanks for joining us and being part of the conversation. We'd love to hear your comments, so write us at the email in the show notes. And if you like our podcast, please subscribe. Today's podcast was produced and edited by Karthik Iyengar, Emily Montai, and me, Peter Wolff.
00:50:37
Speaker
Additional technical support by Eric Jelavik. Original music by Heston Mims. This has been Techno Spiritual Crosses.
00:50:54
Speaker
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