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How can we contribute to social evolution? Notes on community, belonging and purpose in a technological age with Philip Horvath
75 Plays2 months ago
Bringing together many themes of this season, transformational coach Philip Horvath discusses the power of diverse storytelling, and why it’s important for each of us to live into our unique task of exploring our purpose. Touching on the themes of grief and loss in Peter’s book, we begin to explore how to show up and evolve – even co-evolve – even while holding space for others who are on a different step of the journey.
Themes in this episode
- speaking up + speaking out
- evolutionary change
- democracy + climate crisis
- identity and belonging
- grief and loss
- reconnection and remembering
- purpose through and beyond work
Show Notes
- Philip Horvath: https://philiphorvath.com/
- Follow progress on Peter Wolff’s book: https://www.peterwolff.com/author
- Book on Yoga and Tantra: The Yoga of Kashmir Shaivism, Swami Shankarananda
- Program to harvest wisdom of older generations: https://www.meawisdom.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Being a Human Prototype
00:00:10
Speaker
I'm willing to show up and be visible as a prototype because we need new prototypes. but and and In a way, every individual, every human on this planet, by default, if you ask yourself, what's my purpose? By default, everybody's invited to be a human prototype.
00:00:25
Speaker
Because by your very being, by your very acting and being in this world, you're demonstrating ultimately what you think it should be to be human.
Expectations vs. Authenticity
00:00:33
Speaker
I can spend a lot of energy on figuring other people's expectations out.
00:00:37
Speaker
Or can start at the point of, hey man, nobody has any right to have any expectations of me unless we have a specific agreement. And I can only be myself. when With a humble learning, and I think everything about life, all of life, seems to innocently explore its purpose.
Introduction to Techno Spiritual Crossings
00:00:59
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Techno Spiritual Crossings. I'm your host, Peter Wolff. And I'm joined by my podcast team, Emily Montai and Karthik Iyengar.
00:01:11
Speaker
Hi! Hello! The podcast is a way for us to discuss how we want to be human in the 21st century by talking to people committed to personal change and social evolution.
Meet Philip Horvath
00:01:25
Speaker
Today our guest is Philip Horvath. Philip and I met when I first moved to Berlin and turns out that some mutual friends introduced us because Philip and I moved to Berlin from California in the same year. Sounds like our story, Peter.
00:01:45
Speaker
A bit like that. Yeah. um So we're both, we were both doing consulting, change management consulting, innovation consulting. And um so immediately Philip and i hit it off and little did we know that we would have so much in common um and really wanted to to do an interview with Philip.
00:02:11
Speaker
Let's hear it. I'm really excited. Let's do it. Yay. Yay.
Visibility in a Technological World
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, one of the things I've actually noticed in reading some of your more recent writings is and being more upfront, being more visible in terms of a spiritual message. And I'm saying this kind of prefacing that the podcast is techno-spiritual crossings. So um I think you're a perfect person to interview in because we're in a time in which It's necessary, perhaps, to bring more of this spiritual self forward and be public with it.
00:02:56
Speaker
And it's also a time in which there's massively accelerating technological advancement. And so the podcast series somehow is trying to make sense of of these of these things and where they intersect. So today the intersection is landing with you.
00:03:14
Speaker
I think rather than do an introduction, maybe we can just, since we saw each other last night, we can just pick up from from last night. and um And I think there's, one one of the things that I shared last night was about storytelling and was about the Vocalize project.
00:03:33
Speaker
And we actually did the activity together to to create a group story. And the question, the prompt for that is, who are you right now?
00:03:45
Speaker
So this is something that I'm asking all people in general right now.
Identity and Change
00:03:50
Speaker
So I thought I would just start out this interview with that question. Who are you right now?
00:03:57
Speaker
Awesome. I actually had a really good answer you asked me that yesterday and I wrote it down, but I can't remember it right now. And ah some of my other favorite inspirations that from childhood said, Alice, you know, she said, you know, who are you? And she said, ah i don't know, I've changed at least three times since breakfast already.
00:04:13
Speaker
So in terms of who I am right now, i always come back to the only thing I know for sure is that I seem to be here right now. That's the only truth and fact I accept and I seem to be this point of perception where it has some level of awareness and has interfaces into this reality, your body, emotions, mind, those kind of things.
00:04:33
Speaker
And I seem to be also a point of processing. There seems to be something going on here and some formation that's happening. And I also seem to be a point of origin, it's something that is capable of creating in this reality, right? From as simple as the sound of my voice right now that's carrying...
00:04:51
Speaker
ultimately, infinitely into this space, right, to whatever I do and choose to do. So I seem to be that, right, thou art that, right, I seem to be life, right, short poem that I wrote the other day was very simple, it's I seem to be alive, I seem to be ah life.
00:05:09
Speaker
I seem to be life. And if I think of myself, i seem to be this you know accumulation of cells and consciousnesses that ultimately creates a society of mind that I'm perceiving myself to be. And what that exactly is, who knows?
00:05:25
Speaker
And and um that's actually for me the adventure ra off actually exploring who I could become. Because I seem to be here and... Okay, what now?
00:05:39
Speaker
I just wanted to to have a quick quote and of related to this that from your from your latest article.
Materialism vs. Spirituality
00:05:46
Speaker
When we awaken to our Christ mind, our Krishna mind, our genius and higher self, we become aware of Dharma, the natural order of things, how each of us is a part and parcel of quote unquote God and has a role to play.
00:06:02
Speaker
We realize that there is more to who we are, our metaphysical self. Your sentence goes on, but it's just like that is like just being fully, fully disclosing like the nature of of human
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about this notion more around personal evolution, because in your in your latest article and what you've presented recently, there's a lot to do with how we personally evolve and also giving an empowering message that, yes, evolve, and that's what's needed.
00:06:43
Speaker
This question is like, how much of my spiritual person or spiritual persona do I make public? How do I be resilient in in the face of of the pushback and the backlash from stepping forward into more of my humanity, but you know that's synonymous with more of my spiritual self.
00:07:08
Speaker
you know and I think there's few of those two offerings that you have materialism and spiritualism. The one offering says that we are here, your consciousness is an epiphenomenal of your brain, and when that dies, you die and everything's over. so you know, Epicurean, go fuck, eat, drink, be merry, you have fun, because tomorrow you shall die.
00:07:27
Speaker
And it really doesn't matter, so fuck everybody else after you. Okay. And then you have the spiritual thing that essentially says, well, you're only here. And if you're doing it right, you're going to get there. You go to heaven or you go to you you know Nirvana or you go wherever.
00:07:42
Speaker
right So it's a about this other life. So what is this then? Is this freaking test? Am I don't remember being tested by being here? but but What's the point of that? it was so It's like there's a, that in that sense, the the spirituality, I would say it's more that's more religion because religion would feed you that dogma.
00:07:59
Speaker
And in my and my opinion, it's not spirituality. It's it's another form of power absolutely power and control. So then there's there's still this maybe this space of spirituality that even organized religion doesn't really want a person to fully to fully see and realize.
00:08:18
Speaker
Because then it's like giving up control. And we're living in a time now where there's, yeah, I think there is more sense-making of our autonomy. And um I think one of the things that we,
00:08:31
Speaker
that we see in common is that each of us is ah creator God. And um so do I want to create my public persona around being that blasphemous um gay man from San Francisco?
00:08:52
Speaker
I mean, that's so easy to marginalize and to kill off. I'm asking for, what am I asking for? Like an exploration how to navigate how to navigate that space of becoming fully human, becoming fully authentic and managing the interface in the world that I have.
00:09:15
Speaker
And like, what is, and some of that is is for me personally is my belonging, um my my home tribe, gives me all the love and support that I need to be the blasphemous gay man from California.
00:09:30
Speaker
So I'm fine with myself personally, but in the world generally, it's not safe to do that.
Resilience in Spirituality
00:09:38
Speaker
i And this is one of the lessons for me of the story of Jesus on the cross, where he's up there and he doesn't say, you motherfucking goat fucking assholes, like this freaking hurts you idiot idiots, what are you doing?
00:09:50
Speaker
He says, forgive them because they don't know what they do. And he says, ultimately, you can't do anything to me because I'm being me. I'm being authentically me. and and authentic That word authentic comes from Greek, ultimately connected to the idea of self-mastery,
00:10:07
Speaker
To be yourself. and I think that's the first imitation we all have, is to figure out how to be ourselves. Because I can live in a world and constantly try and figure out who they want me to be or how I can you know be okay with for people around me.
00:10:22
Speaker
And I'm living in a world of hell. Sartre is hell, of world you know hell is other people. but I'm living there. Or I can say, hey, you know I don't know what's going on.
00:10:33
Speaker
and i have this truth over here. I have my truth. I'm doing my best to be in constant exploration and learning of myself. And I'm willing to show up and be visible as a prototype because we need new prototypes. but and In in a way ah way, every individual, every human on this planet, by default, if you ask yourself, what's my purpose?
00:10:53
Speaker
By default, everybody's invited to be a human prototype. but Because by your very being, by your very acting and being in this world, you're demonstrating ultimately what you think it should be to be human.
00:11:05
Speaker
and And how you want to show up and And for me, it's like, you know, I can spend a lot of energy on figuring other people's expectations out. Or I can start with a point of, hey man, nobody has any right to have any expectations of me unless we have a specific agreement.
00:11:21
Speaker
So, for all you all, right? And i can only be myself. With a humble learning, right? And I think everything about life, all of life, seems to innocently explore its purpose.
00:11:36
Speaker
Just like every plant grows towards light, just every animal moves towards pleasure and away from
Community and Relational Intelligence
00:11:42
Speaker
pain. Just every human tries and makes sense of the world for these distinctions that we have that create our reality.
00:11:49
Speaker
and and we're trying to make sense of it and we're trying to make sense of our relational intelligence. And I think this is where invited right now to be those humans that actually show up on that next level of who we can be, who have gone through the abyss of I and loneliness and who have chosen to connect.
00:12:06
Speaker
When Maslow talked about self-actualization, it's that part that says, okay, cool, I acknowledge that I have these needs. I have physical needs, have emotional needs, I have safety needs, I have belonging and esteem needs, and that it's okay that I have these.
00:12:22
Speaker
right So how can I build community? Coming back to the earlier point, how can I build community around me? that provides me with the support to be me. And that's you know what we all get to do, that we have to get create these communities of support so that we can have the millions of legions behind us when we show off that show up out there in the world, when we're willing to present ourselves with vulnerability.
00:12:45
Speaker
Because we know we have taken some amount of self-care first for ourselves, and again, we've built ourselves some community and some belonging through ultimately adding value to other people's lives.
00:12:58
Speaker
given that most everyone operates out of self-interest and we're all operating at various levels of awareness or adult development, um have you thought about how those on the path towards what you actually use the word alchemy or it could be self-realization or it could be just becoming becoming more human
00:13:27
Speaker
Have you thought about how to be effective as one who is on a path of evolution to be effective amongst all of this diversity in which there is going to be no listening space with some and a big listening space with others?
00:13:45
Speaker
ah Given I feel the the push and the the contribution that you're making to say yes to personal evolution. But have you thought about How do we do that in a world that is so diverse in terms of where people are and in their evolution?
00:14:05
Speaker
Big loaded question. let me Let me take one step back to the beginning of what you talked about in terms of technology and our development. Aristotle talked about techne and epistemy and how there's a reciprocal relationship between these two.
00:14:21
Speaker
And epistemy is sort of our belief systems, our ideas of the world, you know, how we look at the things. epistemology in some sense, and we express that through the technology we create.
00:14:32
Speaker
and So when when we had a certain new notion, we could build new technology, which now in turn also changes or cognition, might also changes how we perceive reality.
00:14:43
Speaker
but If you think about how people
Personal Development and Technology
00:14:44
Speaker
perceive reality today because they have smartphones, we think differently. we I call it the fourth brain. have my brainstem, I have my governing, my physical system, and I have my limbic system that takes care of my emotional self, and then I have my neocortical tissue that takes care of some of the higher human functions.
00:15:02
Speaker
And then I have sort of this fourth brain because I don't need to store things anymore. I can go and say, hey... what what is going on tomorrow and I can look at my calendar i know. I can they say, hey Google, where was I yesterday? And they can actually tell me where i was yesterday.
00:15:16
Speaker
but I cannot ah can so extend myself into this virtual space and also into relationships with more people. Now, what people tend to forget when they they kind of copy Silicon Valley technology or copy whether that is actual technology like using the internet or um using tools like design thinking and lean, etc.
00:15:35
Speaker
ah What they forget is that they evolved in the context of personal development. But if you think about sort of the Western, at least, globalized mind or understanding of spirituality, you know, a few hundred, about a hundred years ago,
00:15:49
Speaker
A lot of that actually happened here in Berlin, right? There was a lot of people, German philosophers brought Eastern and Western things together. And then you had some of that swap over to the US and then all the way go West, young man, right? Where all the crazies go all the way to California. And in the last hundred years from bringing yogis from India to California, from, you know, exploring various, you know, occult scenarios from around the world and esoteric traditions, a lot of that development happened there too.
00:16:14
Speaker
But if think about the internet, for example, came together because of, EST, LSD, and the DoD. The DoD financed the whole thing. People were eating LSD like candy because it was considered a performance enhancement drug, and it actually improves your thinking and gives you new cognitive abilities.
00:16:30
Speaker
ah Turning in your third eye mind, where you now suddenly... go beyond your normal perception filters and you see more of an interconnectedness, but which then reflected itself in that technology.
00:16:44
Speaker
And you had EST, which was the Erhard Senna Trainings, which was one of the popular personal development tools that, you know, from its lineage, went back to Scientology, to ah the OTO, to the Golden Dawn, to Templars with the Crucians, Masons,
00:17:00
Speaker
The corpus hermeticum all the way to Egyptian magic. Some of that esoteric knowledge that was always hidden because it was easier to govern people when they're stupid. and there was no Individuation also then creates individuals.
00:17:14
Speaker
but an Individuals are much, much more difficult to govern than a bunch of people that you can make go to the left or go to the right and have them pick between red and blue you know mean and have basic emotional decisions rather than adult rational decisions.
00:17:27
Speaker
So I guess a long introduction to why I think these are so intricately linked, right? And then we use these new technologies. And to your question of how can we reach people, ah we do have distributed technology now, right? Which means we don't have to have...
00:17:43
Speaker
a central thing in a hierarchy that kind of figures out how to reach everybody, and because that job would be pretty much impossible. And we're seeing already in the current systems, whether it's governmental or political, societal or you know business systems, where that construct, that way of organizing is already beginning to fail because the problems are too volatile and certain complex and ambiguous right in this VUCA world.
00:18:08
Speaker
So what we do need now is essentially to address that cognitive diversity that we have and the neurological diversity that we have in the world to also actually distribute the task of reaching them and have as many storytellers as possible, have as many artists as possible, have many as many philosophers, psychologists, shamans, whatever you want to call yourself, right out there,
00:18:31
Speaker
Doing this work, that being visible, being present. and And as you mentioned, you know that I've become more visible and also more opinionated. but Part of that is because, hey, man, we need a different kind of mindset. but As we're evolving into this next level of society with these technologies that we have available, we need people who can wield them.
00:18:51
Speaker
at And at the moment we have a whole bunch of children around that you know due to lack of exposure to information, i oftentimes very stuck or due to all the PTSD people have from school, where you were told that you're stupid or you can't do something.
Vulnerability and Innovation
00:19:06
Speaker
And since then you decided to stop learning i don't try not to learn anymore because it's coming with a cost. This is part of that transformational problem. It's like if it was easy and fun, everybody do it.
00:19:20
Speaker
But innovation isn't easy. ah Bringing something new into the world, being willing to be vulnerable, by being willing to put yourself out there, it is takes takes a lot. Brene Brown talks about how there's no act of courage without vulnerability.
00:19:35
Speaker
But if you're stepping out to do something new, you're exposing yourself. And you're naked out there. And I think what we need, though, in this world is a whole bunch more naked people in that sense.
00:19:47
Speaker
When we actually accept that, hey, we are on this rock in the middle of space together. It's going down. The next 20 years are going to have more transformation than the last 30 And a lot of people are going to go for massive transformation that they're not prepared for at all.
00:20:03
Speaker
but so I think it's even more important for those people who have had transformation going on anyway, who've had experiences of that, of ego death in various formats. whether it be separations or job loss or existential problems or artistic failures or business failures, whatever it might be, that those people who hold that experience can now be there to hold space for those who haven't had that yet.
00:20:29
Speaker
Beautiful.
00:20:32
Speaker
um
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of see this this talk and in two parts in this first one really around our personal evolution.
Future Challenges and Conscious Evolution
00:20:43
Speaker
And um um the other part is about our social evolution.
00:20:51
Speaker
And there's a couple of things about the future and the way that the future is pressing in on us. And one being the climate crisis, being one that is, okay, maybe that's something we eventually we need to that's a consider. no No, we need to consider it now. No, okay, maybe maybe it's too late. Whatever. There's a many different ways the future is pressing in on us.
00:21:17
Speaker
um The other one... is something that I recently, when reading Hannah Arendt's book, um and the introduction to her book, um The Human Condition.
00:21:32
Speaker
She really makes the distinction that humanity faced a crossing or a moment in time in 1945 when with the atom bomb we realize that we have the ability to destroy ourselves.
00:21:49
Speaker
So... That's a technological ability. like this is the The advancement of technology has ah reached a certain point. We're over this threshold. The advancement technology says, okay, we can we can wipe out all life.
00:22:02
Speaker
We have that ability. We're trying to not do that, but then we're kind of still doing it anyway by continuing to build and economy around things that continue to destroy ourselves psychologically. lot of things we've already spoken about.
00:22:21
Speaker
um but also physically, just having enough water and food to eat.
00:22:28
Speaker
I guess maybe the question is like, coming back to the point you made earlier, how does our conscious kind conscious evolution contribute to our social evolution, given that we're living in this hyper-speed technological advancement?
Risks and Opportunities in Technology
00:22:48
Speaker
There was a report a few years ago, last year, two two years ago, from the National Intelligence Council in the U.S. And one of the key new insights that they had in that, but because they're always looking at safety issues or security issues, etc.
00:23:03
Speaker
And one of the new key insights was the power of the individual. but If you think about all of our villains in movies that you know steal some of those atom bombs and do that stuff and want a million dollars, those kind of things, that's actually not even the threat anymore or even some fundamentalist terrorists, etc. like um There are, of course, all valid its threats, but what's actually really a new threat is the individual.
00:23:29
Speaker
ah You can think about a 14 year old kid, you know some blasphemous gay young man who gets bullied at school for being authentically himself and decides to go home and ride a little killer virus that takes um over our systems and crashes our banking system for example.
00:23:47
Speaker
And three days later we'll be cannibalizing each other at that point. We've already passed the point of no return in terms of failure points of our system. And there's so many of them. There's these external factors like climate change, but where, for example, in a few years we'll have a billion or two refugees, not a couple of hundred million, but that'll be actually nearly the new normal.
00:24:11
Speaker
but know was just talking to a young gentleman who builds you know software for these camps to help distribute resources and trying to test new technologies
Future Cities and Optimism
00:24:18
Speaker
there. And I said to him, think of refugee camps as the city of the future.
00:24:22
Speaker
and Because we'll actually have more cities like that in terms of you know populations than here. And here it's actually very difficult to test things in some of those existing things because you have a lot of rules and regulations.
00:24:34
Speaker
So go test it there where it's a bit more open space. And in these open spaces, new ways of doing things in combination with technology evolve. but and This is for example where even like the UN was testing blockchain for food distribution in refugee camps for example.
00:24:49
Speaker
and So there's new systems that are being evolved already right now and that gives me some sort of optimism for the future in the sense that you know we are beginning, if you look at the periphery, there's all kinds of efforts already underway to build a new world and to build a world that can actually where we can reverse climate change.
00:25:09
Speaker
Because if the other day somebody did a survey of future and you know some journalist and his two answers were, wow, there's actually two things we need to do to know create the future. And it's women and seaweed.
00:25:21
Speaker
He said essentially that if you give more education to women and if you give more education to girls, all of our statistics show that we'll have fairer, more balanced social systems. but Because they are the keepers of life. like They are creating life in their womb.
00:25:35
Speaker
And they have a traditional role of maintaining life on this planet. And so empowering them is one thing you can do right around the
Educating Women and Innovating Solutions
00:25:43
Speaker
world. And there's some beautiful examples of that.
00:25:45
Speaker
And the second is that we can grow with seaweed that actually will help to decarbonize our planet again. Where we have you know fastest growing stuff that grows half a meter a day, it allows us to actually take carbon out of the atmosphere again.
00:25:59
Speaker
And if you think about the advancement of technology, but it's it's massive. I mean, what's coming? and we have a convergence of these different things that are coming together. We have combinatory possibilities where we're suddenly be using some of the AI and CRISPR and, you know, who knows what and mixing these technologies together with synthetic biology. and creating completely new ways of dealing with things on this planet.
00:26:21
Speaker
We might even find some way of you know eating plastic and turning that back into useful resource. We might find a way to he heal our soil but around the world. And there's micro versions of these solutions already available today.
00:26:34
Speaker
and It's just not mass market yet. This is coming back to why it's so important for those at the periphery to share their stories, and to to document, to to tell, to be themselves.
00:26:46
Speaker
Because both with how you communicate and what do you communicate, but more so even with how you appear. but and You mentioned those you know distinguishing factors of blasphemous and gay and this.
00:26:58
Speaker
They're all distinctions. Who gives a fuck, honestly. You're a you human being, you're here. That matters. You're individual. You're different from everybody else on this planet, ah just like everybody else is their unique self. but And to create more safe spaces where we can bring our unique selves to play, and where we can give people the opportunity and the resources to actually do something about things that matter to them.
00:27:21
Speaker
i think there is our new social technologies, is to create these spaces. What are the prototypes for those creating safe spaces for people to bring the the needed voice in?
00:27:35
Speaker
Do you know of them or do we make them up right now? No, I mean, I see them everywhere. If you think about, you take one step back and think about what is wealth, i Originally, wealth meant resources. right I have more fish, I have more furs, I have more stuff.
00:27:50
Speaker
And then the next level was in terms of our technology, like the wheel and things like that, that allowed us to now expand in territory. And the Romans you know they did that really well. They showed us a territory is wealth.
00:28:01
Speaker
but Because if I have territory, can send my soldiers there and they bring me back resources. And then when we kind of got to the borders of the land, suddenly we needed maps, we needed information, right? And information became wealth, right? All the way down to money is technically information, right? It's like the money actually doesn't exist. There's no gold somewhere that is yours. There's an entry in a ledger in a data system somewhere, right? Information or even all the way to Wall trade eral Street, inside trader information, right? That kind of stuff, it's information, it's power and wealth, right?
00:28:32
Speaker
Now what we've already seen is we're shifting to a new thing because if you think about like some of the most valued companies in the world, they're valued because of their users and how many users they have. It's community that's actually new wealth.
00:28:44
Speaker
had Relationship and being in relationship with others that's actually ultimately wealth.
Wealth and Community
00:28:50
Speaker
And that's where we can create the safe spaces and make sure that we build community. And just like I told you earlier, it's like to create your own community To be the host of a community, to bring people together, that's one thing that you can do. i didn't For example, I see a lot of efforts around the world of new dinner formats or new gathering formats or new kind of conference formats where people are realizing we we need more meaningful connection with each other again.
00:29:19
Speaker
and And so there's new and and conferences, there's all kinds of different approaches to saying, hey, everybody has an important story. How can we create a space to feel safe enough to tell it? and And the other thing about psychological safety, if you think about Stephen Covey talked originally about the circles of concern and influence and control.
00:29:39
Speaker
I've kind of changed it for myself to be spheres and I dropped control in that and just think of it in terms of spheres of concern and influence. but Like where am I concerning myself? Why do I concern myself just with myself? Is the world okay when I'm okay?
00:29:52
Speaker
Or is the world okay when I and my partner are okay? Or I and my family are okay? My team, my organization, my nation, my country, my all the way to planet, right? Where do I cons concern myself?
00:30:03
Speaker
And where do I think i can have impact? and How powerful do I think i am? Can I just barely take care of myself or do I think I can change something on a planetary scale? And so these things and awakening that within ourselves, that there's a level there that corresponds that the less psychologically safe you feel, the more tighter your sphere of concern.
00:30:25
Speaker
But if something exploded here right now, we'd all first of all make sure we're great okay. and Then we'd be, go oh shit, there was other people, are they okay too? right But the less safety you have, the less you can concern yourself with others.
00:30:38
Speaker
The more safe you feel or have the capacity to create that safety for yourself through emotional self-regulation, the more you can actually expand your sphere of concern.
00:30:51
Speaker
Yeah, so everything that we've talked about before so far is ah lot of food for thought. And around this this notion of encouraging people to free their voice and become storytellers, and we need to and what I really resonated with in in that response was that we need storytellers the in all places with all types of people so that the stories are relevant to where people are right now and providing that connection space, that safe space.
00:31:33
Speaker
um In addition to that, providing the opportunity and the growth to get there, yeah, listening is a very important quality of storytelling And I just wondered if you wanted to say something about the how or creating safe space, which is through listening and what experiences you've had or just say something to that.
00:31:59
Speaker
Sure. If you want, you know, for me to share my story, want to actually know that it's actually landing. Because otherwise, what's the point?
00:32:09
Speaker
If you think about ah you know psychological safety, if I'm trying to say say something and everybody's ignoring me, that's not particularly safe.
Listening and Co-Evolution
00:32:18
Speaker
Or if I'm talking to someone and while they're talking to me, they're checking their phone and doing all kinds of things, I'm not feeling particularly safe.
00:32:26
Speaker
So I think being seen and being heard in some ways is what everything in this universe is striving for. and Every flower wants to be appreciated, every animal wants to be petted, every human wants to have that esteem of like, hi, I see you, I hear you, right and what you're saying is relevant to me.
00:32:43
Speaker
but I think that's very important and for me it's about the idea of moving from transaction to co-evolution. and Because there's still, if think about when we speak with each other, there's the act of transferring information.
00:32:58
Speaker
actually if We can go all the way right from body language, at how I'm actually even presenting myself to you, if I'm actually paying attention to you physically. There is an emotional connection in the sense of my own limbic system and that resonance that's measurable in each other's brains that we have of each other. So my attitude towards you it already matters because you might have been in situations where you fought with a loved one you're well, tell me how you feel.
00:33:24
Speaker
Well, don't know you're coming with that attitude. It's not particularly safe and welcoming. Then there's to make space for the actual information shared, where I well understand that neither one of us actually knows what's going on, and your perspective is as valid as mine.
00:33:40
Speaker
And so that has value. And I don't know come from that place. And that brings me into that shift where I'm going from transaction of I'm telling you something and now you have the piece of information to actually co-evolving where I'm coming in with who could I become and part as part of this conversation.
00:34:00
Speaker
Where I'm not coming in with I know who I am and here's what I got. But I'm coming in with, hey, man, i seem to be here right now. Here's what I have so far. And what else could I grow from? And I'm coming in with that attitude.
00:34:14
Speaker
and I'm also looking at you, not just as this is what that is, but with those distinctions that I'm choosing to have judgments about. But I'm also looking at you as an evolving process.
00:34:25
Speaker
As Buckminster Fuller said, I seem to be a verb. So I'm also looking at you as a verb, and I'm actually not just addressing you, but I'm addressing your potential. As if in coming also back to your other question around how do you deal with the neurodiversity that we have and the different levels of evolution, always coming from an understanding that everything wants to be seen and heard and validated.
00:34:47
Speaker
and everybody wants to be heard, but do them if because if they're not, going to act out. This is what we're seeing politically around the world. but a lot of people that don't feel appreciated, don't feel heard, they're seeing this this new technological world that's already way too far ahead of them and that actually cares about problems that are completely irrelevant to their late lives every day. a friend of mine here had once said once that in Silicon Valley they make the best salty snacks while the rest of the world is thirsty.
00:35:19
Speaker
And and so seeing this over there and not feeling hurt, not having anybody seemingly care about your problems, that invisibility, that's pissing people off.
00:35:30
Speaker
Which is why they're wearing bright yellow jackets and saying, look at me, see me please.
00:35:36
Speaker
matter. And until we give people the sense that they matter,
00:35:45
Speaker
they they're not going to come around.
00:35:48
Speaker
There's no openness to listening from their end until they know that they're also going to have that same courtesy and same respect. Well, thank you, Philip. like It's been such an amazing conversation and we're going to spend probably one, two, three years perhaps trying to to make sense of it and decode what this conversation has been about
00:36:23
Speaker
So here we are. i thought maybe I would just kind of replay some of my thoughts. um Maybe starting from the end and working backwards and jumping around a bit. Thing that the Phillips said about and we have the best salty snacks while the rest of the world is thirsty.
00:36:40
Speaker
I have so many things to to say just about that, but I think it it points it's a nice analogy for looking at the connection between personal evolution and social evolution. which is the kind of the the two main themes that that we talked about starting with personal evolution and in the, you know, staying close to the theme of techno spiritual crossings, really focusing on spiritual evolution.
00:37:04
Speaker
And what does that mean? How do I make myself vulnerable to to grow and expand and really become more human and to demonstrate more of my humanity?
00:37:17
Speaker
but contrast contrasted with that there's such diversity in the world. And if I am trying to be the the best expression of myself and my uniqueness, how do I get along with everybody else in the world? And Philip offered some thoughts about how we begin to bridge the gap, we talked about listening and creating safe spaces and creating really the appropriate safe spaces for the healers and the storytellers to connect with groups of people um so that they can be heard.
00:37:55
Speaker
And that's really coming back to the salty snacks. It's like people not being heard. causes the the anger the the rage the um the disconnection so there's so many different themes to talk about where should we start yeah i mean we can start from Philip's answer for who are you right now, which was quite amusing to me in the sense that he also found it a bit unclear and kind of positioning himself as who he is in the context of the universe, in the context of whatever is happening around him.
00:38:35
Speaker
And then he he he made a lot of references to, i guess, the self, the higher self, the lower self. And then that also like segwayed into this whole conversation about individuality and also about authenticity.
00:38:48
Speaker
So I feel like it kind of makes a lot of sense to even like try to define
Universal Self and Purpose
00:38:53
Speaker
what he means by the self and bringing yourself and when he says you have to create these safe spaces where you can be your most authentic self. So what exactly is your interpretation of what the self is?
00:39:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think we could spend a half an hour talking about his answer to who you are right now. I felt like after listening to what he said, he actually explained the meaning of life.
00:39:22
Speaker
And we didn't actually need to continue with the conversation any any longer. um But, you know, there was a lot more to talk about. Yeah. I think coming back to that, it's it's so dynamic, like who we are in the moment is so dynamic.
00:39:37
Speaker
um That's kind of something that we need to take into account. ah What he said in the end was, i I seem to be alive. I seem to be a life.
00:39:48
Speaker
i am life. And ah that to me kind of expressed this idea that any true representation of the self is somehow a representation of the whole of things.
00:40:05
Speaker
It's the way that you fully express yourself is to fully be part of of the universal. And he kind of,
00:40:17
Speaker
expanded on that when he said all life explores its purpose and maybe that is what it means to be a life to be fully authentically yourself is to be exploring your purpose your purpose um as ah a a member an element of creation um your self as the um as what you are creating currently yeah That's, I mean, it's in a very evolved point of view. It actually takes me back to, you know, when I was studying the tantric traditions that that's kind of ah fundamental in tantra is that the randomness and diversity um or ah all unique expressions of life.
00:41:09
Speaker
And that's to be expected yet. how long does it, I mean, this is in terms terms of personal evolution, how long does it take for us to practice or contemplate that this actually makes sense in my day-to-day life?
00:41:24
Speaker
And I think, well, yes, what he's saying, i agree with 100%. I think I'm also confronted by the fact that We face a lot of people that are feeling disconnected and maybe this kind of thinking is what he said. It's it's not relevant.
00:41:44
Speaker
You're talking about like the privilege point of view versus like I'm struggling for survival or I'm struggling to be even recognized or seen or heard. I think this is kind of like the ah thing about coexisting.
00:41:59
Speaker
that we're continuously challenged by. I also liked what he was pointing to in in terms of that evolution of going from transaction being transactional in our relationships to being co-creators.
00:42:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i found this to be a particularly interesting starting point. I mean, you guys covered certain aspects, but what was interesting was that the way that he reasons about himself is also the way that he decides to interact with the world or recommends to interact with the world in the sense of understanding your own circle of influence or your social sphere so to speak so the way that you map to the world around you and really does influence how you end up interacting with
00:42:52
Speaker
the world around you, you know. And it it was quite curious to me that the starting point of the conversation and the ending point of the conversation kind of had this really strong relation, so to speak.
00:43:06
Speaker
In which way? Because he started speaking about himself. And then to Emily's point, the way that you see yourself is a part of the whole.
00:43:18
Speaker
And towards the end, when he was speaking about your own circle of influence and how big do you think is this circle of influence? Does it include you, your family, the other person, like someone you don't like or whatever? How big is this sphere of control or influence?
00:43:33
Speaker
I think the way that you see yourself really does influence the way that you behave in the world. So if you feel like yourself,
00:43:45
Speaker
subsumes the people around you, the more people it subsumes the more and or you can connect with them, it manifests in the way that you ah perform your actions in the world.
00:44:00
Speaker
This beginning and end of the conversation is sort of like a mirror in the same way that if you, the only way to reach yourself in the mirror is actually to reach out away from yourself.
00:44:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, since you spoke about like the Tantra tradition and so on, right like I feel like a lot of order of what he speaks about and also what Emily was referring to is like what you spoke about, about people feeling disenfranchised or not heard.
00:44:31
Speaker
So this way of thinking about the self as like the whole the... and the part, or the essential self and the for the worldly self. I think i think it's it it goes back to many Eastern traditions again, right? Like Tantra and Buddhism and so on, right? yeah Maybe you guys want to explain to our listeners, e.g. me, how this goes back to Tantra.
00:45:00
Speaker
I can't bottom line it in in a manner of minutes, but I would maybe offer a contrast Whereas in the way that it contrasts with Judeo-Christian type of thinking, where there's a unified mind, there's a unified way of thinking, there's an order there's an order to things.
Eastern vs. Western Philosophies
00:45:20
Speaker
And Eastern tradition basically embraces that there, especially in Tantra, that there is no order to things, that life occurs randomly, and it's our...
00:45:35
Speaker
ability to be with that and the response to that is what connects us to ah what yeah to consciousness. Maybe you have another segue in.
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, ah so so so the way of reasoning and many Eastern traditions about the self is that and your experience and the things that happen to you are different from who you are, as in your thoughts are not you, as what they usually say.
00:46:08
Speaker
Think about a movie screen. So there are things playing on the movie screen, right? Like there are pictures coming on the movie screen, but those pictures don't really influence the screen. The screen remains the same, just the pictures are moving and changing and those are experiences.
00:46:26
Speaker
But this underlying sense of aliveness or this underlying sense of consciousness that we have, that's been the same ever since you were a child, ever since you were alive, whether you were happy, whether you were sad, it's always there and it's always the same.
00:46:45
Speaker
And that self is essentially what all of life energy draws from, right? And that's one way of reasoning about it. I don't know if this is succinct or if it's even accurate or doing justice.
00:47:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely part of the... I mean, it resonates with me in terms of part of the the underlying philosophy. I don't know. yeah Are you any clearer about that? Yeah.
00:47:14
Speaker
I think that was helpful. it's I want to actually like go back to some of the things that you said, Peter, on the podcast, mainly around being a blasphemous gay man from San Francisco and and the importance of having a community around you, which is also pointed out by Philip.
00:47:31
Speaker
How big of a difference do you think this made, for instance, for you? Did you feel heard? I was a blasphemous gay man when I was interviewing Philip. I was using myself as an example of just someone who you know thanks a lot and has a lot of things that that i that I want to share. And if I share, then I'll be more public in all of ah my color.
00:47:55
Speaker
But I think what was powerful in his response was that just remembering that we're all a human prototype. And I think this also you know refers back to the individuals all being part of the whole in life, that it's it's our purpose to express that uniqueness. I think he said it in another way, but it's it's also our challenge to be authentic and and express who we really are
00:48:29
Speaker
I mean, I think that relates to why we're all here in Berlin, right? How we feel we can somehow be more authentically ourselves than um in the last place that we were.
00:48:43
Speaker
But I want to ask, what what do you think it means to not be authentically yourself?
Authenticity vs. Societal Conditioning
00:48:51
Speaker
Oh, I like this question quite a lot because I keep thinking about it.
00:48:57
Speaker
I feel like when there is a lot of dissonance between the way that you think and the way that you act, you're not being authentic. And that's a very easy way for me to know when I'm not doing the right thing or when I'm not being me.
00:49:12
Speaker
If you find yourself second guessing what you've done, reliving the moments that... Let me make sure I have it right. If you notice that there's a difference between the way that you think and the way that you act.
00:49:25
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yes. I think it sounds, i mean, I agree with you 100%, and I think it sounds simpler. It's very complicated for me personally, because it actually takes work for me to discover that difference.
00:49:44
Speaker
It's not so like completely ah completely obvious all the time because I think within that difference between what I think and the way that I act comes my conditioning.
00:49:58
Speaker
To be a good Christian, to be a nice person, to don't start an argument, to To be in harmony. That's a big one for me. To be in harmony. To show up to work on time.
00:50:12
Speaker
um don't talk Don't talk back to your boss. I mean, you could argue that all of these compromises or the differences between the way that I think and the way that I act also create harmony and and agreement ah like unspoken societal agreements.
00:50:34
Speaker
Well, now I want to go back to the idea that we are not our thoughts. Yeah, this maps very firmly to what I wanted to say.
00:50:45
Speaker
I feel like what you said there, in the sense that you're not really able to sometimes no or discern that Or maybe there's a lag in trying to figure out that you're not really acting the way that you think. right And this requires like constant awareness.
00:51:06
Speaker
And it requires a lot of alertness and aliveness that can be learned and practiced, I feel.
00:51:16
Speaker
But it is a deliberate act to watch it. I mean, that it kind of describes, you know, like being here, being alive right now, disconnecting slightly for a moment, having a lag between those thoughts.
00:51:31
Speaker
Like what is, what who do I think that I am or think that I should be and who I am right now? i think the other aspect of it in terms of building that awareness between what I think and the way that i act is actually having somebody mirror to mirror me So it requires that dedicated and compassionate listening so that but who I am is somehow reflected back to me.
00:52:06
Speaker
And there the awareness can actually be integrated somehow. I wish I had a better way to express it. really like that because I think it expresses so much like what the belonging aspect is, how...
00:52:23
Speaker
we Yes, we are whole in ourselves, but we are part of a whole that requires
Community and Belonging
00:52:28
Speaker
the participation, the community two fully experience what it is to be our authentic selves.
00:52:37
Speaker
This definitely goes back to this recurring theme of belonging that we keep seeing across all of our speakers. Yeah. yeah Yeah, it has been, again, identified that It is like having a community that listens to you and also feeling heard, as also Philip mentioned, has a very direct directly proportional effect on how you interact or how you react to the to circumstances.
00:53:06
Speaker
And creating that distance also between that the distance that we're talking about that allows you to actually listen yourself, to listen and hear other people.
00:53:18
Speaker
and not just react automatically. This is a great point before before because before you listen to someone else, you have to be able to listen to yourself and also say that maybe what you're thinking is not that important. And having that humility is huge step towards building.
00:53:40
Speaker
What was it that Philip called it? a Co-evolving. Co-evolving with someone. Yeah. I think, I think it also points to empathy to be able to like question in the moment, Oh, what I'm thinking maybe isn't so important right now.
00:54:00
Speaker
yeah I can actually place my awareness over it in to where the other person is and listen to that. Creating a different kind of relationship is creating a different kind of communication, connection,
00:54:14
Speaker
bond, belonging. And also equalization. Like my my thoughts, my opinions, what is going through my mind right now is not in any way any more important.
00:54:27
Speaker
And therefore, i can put it aside. Yeah, because you approach a conversation as a peer and you go and go there with a um ah growth mindset. Essentially, like, how can I grow from this conversation, as what Philip said?
00:54:44
Speaker
That gives yeah you really good odds of establishing ab bridge between you and someone else. Yeah. If I may, I want to anchor this conversation back into this topic of um making your persona public, right which is where some of this kind of came out.
Creativity and Spiritual Expression
00:55:06
Speaker
So Philip makes the point that it's very important for intellectuals, also for artists and also for creative people to put themselves out there and also talk about all of these subjects.
00:55:17
Speaker
Very often, it's not very easy to talk about subjects like spirituality and religion. And we usually tend to dance around these subjects. Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm just saying spirituality and religion, but it could be anything, like any belief system, right?
00:55:32
Speaker
Like, how can we a bit be a bit more courageous about this? And that's one of the things that came up also from your story. Philip says, we're moving towards a new style of technology in a world that we don't recognize. It's evolving. We need like a new set of rules. We need like a new set of thoughts and like thought leadership, right?
00:55:52
Speaker
And how can we enable that? like Since we're here now having this conversation in 2024, after the the re-election of Trump, for example, I heard ah people say that, well, if you're not a Trump supporter or if you voted for somebody else, how am I supposed to react or respond to this?
00:56:13
Speaker
One of the things that I heard, well, it's more important now than ever. Didn't we have this conversation, Emily? Now it's more important than ever that that the artists and the storytellers and, as Philip says, the shaman philosophers come forward with but the creativity.
00:56:34
Speaker
That creativity, in my mind, shows the the diversity. Maybe these are... the tried and true things that we've done in the past.
00:56:47
Speaker
You know, you can think about and you know in the not so recent past when um really oppressive regimes are are there and it's the comedians and it's the storytellers and the entertainers and the movie makers who somehow you know show the so the other side of it.
00:57:08
Speaker
In some ways I think this is what we're doing this podcast about. Yeah, I think what he said about technology, how our vision of what our purpose is and our vision of the future is expressed through technology. And I think this goes back to like bringing our whole self to our work, to our authenticity, to what we do all the time.
00:57:37
Speaker
you know, what is my what is my purpose? What is my view of the future? And expressing that. Sometimes we as artists will look out at society and express a dystopian version of the future because we see that that it could be a possibility if people don't take heed.
00:57:56
Speaker
But um I feel like we don't need to imagine any more dystopias at this moment.
00:58:05
Speaker
It's maybe time to really like think about our purpose and our future and express that. in a creative way.
00:58:17
Speaker
And as Karthik was saying before, don't forget our connection to the whole. The part of our self that is unchanging
00:58:28
Speaker
and constant. There are so many interesting threads to pull from just what both of you all said. Please be a weaver.
00:58:39
Speaker
That can be your creative output.
00:58:45
Speaker
The whole thing is that, I mean, since you both are like quite creative in the sense that you do have like a movie out, for instance, or a book out. And he also mentions this point about when you have like a experience like ego death, it is then your responsibility to talk about it and then share that experience with the world.
00:59:12
Speaker
And sometimes people don't want to do that. Sometimes you're quite content with living your insulated life and living with happiness and peace.
00:59:24
Speaker
Is this like a responsibility? i'm im I'm just trying to understand whether how how can we get more comfortable with this responsibility of trying to to to contribute what you've learned or what you've the mental state that you've achieved. How can you communicate that with others and is this even your responsibility?
00:59:46
Speaker
Wow, it would be great that there are invitations. Society in the world is designed for young people, people that... don't perhaps have as much to give back.
01:00:00
Speaker
And then, you know, senior citizens kind of ride off into the sunset as it also as a marginalized population, I think. I mean, as I'm painting an extreme picture, but wisdom and maturity perhaps are not very highly valued in our in our present society.
01:00:20
Speaker
i think if there were more invitations to bring that in, that would be great. i I find that really, really inspiring too. ah and it it requires, just as much as it requires something of you know kids to want to listen, it requires quite a lot of um older people to so to bring generations together, i think is is another part of that.
Hopeful Technologies
01:00:45
Speaker
What I found to be interesting and also hopeful is that Philip seems to think that these new methods are evolving. We're also go converging on new methods and new techniques that may map to the technology landscape that we live in For instance, in particular, he mentioned new systems of food distribution a new methods of reversing climate change, which I thought was quite hopeful.
01:01:18
Speaker
ah What I was also thinking when um you were talking about how people should actually go to the source to their customers or clients to figure out you know how to design something I liked that how Philip said the the refugee camp is the city of the future.
01:01:38
Speaker
Like solutions actually come from necessity, from actual problems as they exist and people actually developing things that are from a real need.
01:01:52
Speaker
And i think we're seeing that all over in terms of climate change. Solutions are coming from places that are the most impacted. by climate change because they have to. It's now climate adaptation.
01:02:05
Speaker
ah There's no there's no time to say, how do we stop climate change from happening? Okay, now we just have to build houses differently. We have to access water in a different way.
01:02:17
Speaker
We have to find a solution for the new climate that we're living in and going to where the solutions are rather than saying, oh, I got a dumb idea. And, you know, it's a great idea because I came up with it.
01:02:32
Speaker
Let me put it somewhere. Let's yeah go to the refugee camps. yeah the The example of the of the refugee camp being the city of the future is a great message of hope in a way.
Conclusion: Hope and Belonging
01:02:43
Speaker
It doesn't sound so hopeful, um but the fact that ah we can do some rapid prototyping, if you will, you know in terms of learning how to address real needs out of crisis.
01:02:58
Speaker
this has been This has been such a thought-provoking and fruitful ah conversation, and I hope that we can continue to bring our full selves to this project and to our lives outside this project.
01:03:15
Speaker
And we hope you do too, dear listener. Bye now. Yes, and listeners, we hope that you are getting something out of these conversations to to take home for yourself in terms of hope, action, and belonging.
01:03:32
Speaker
And to share with your community. You can also share the podcast, but we just mean sharing the themes. Thank you for listening, and good night. Bye.
01:03:46
Speaker
Today's podcast was produced and edited by Emily Monti, Karthik Iyengar, and me, Peter Wolfe. Original music by Heston Mims. This has been Techno Spiritual Crossings.
01:03:57
Speaker
Thank you for listening.