Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
What’s the Price of Your Vote? Exposing the Cost of Corruption with Ilham Mohamed
43 Plays2 months ago
Regional Director for Transparency International, Ilham (Imma) Mohamed, explains how power imbalances enable corruption—and why ending corruption is the foundational right that unlocks access to all other rights. In this episode, we explore personal prerequisites for social change such as empathy, open-mindedness, and the courage to speak up. Imma also discusses the challenges activists face when the stakes are high, and how digitalization both empowers and endangers those fighting for justice.
Themes in this episode
- Holding Power to Account & Corruption as a Gateway: How the abuse of power not only erodes essential rights like healthcare and education but also creates a cascade of other injustices.
- Women at the Forefront of Change: The critical role of women's grassroots activism in challenging power imbalances and driving social transformation.
- Digitalization: Empowerment vs. Surveillance: Examining how technology can both promote transparency and enable surveillance, affecting the safety and effectiveness of activists.
- Inclusion, Exclusion, and Social Power Dynamics: Understanding how group dynamics and the “othering” of certain voices can influence both activism and policy change.
- Speaking Up and the Human Cost of Activism: The personal risks - peer pressure, family challenges, and systemic intimidation that come with standing up against corruption.
- Empathy, Open-Minded Leadership, and Community Building: How cultivating soft skills and peer learning strengthens activist networks and nurtures more effective, inclusive leadership.
- Real-Life Corruption Tactics: Insights into practices like ghost soldiers and vote buying, which reveal the mechanisms behind public fund misappropriation.
- Designing for Now Amid Broader Crises: Linking democracy and the climate crisis to the urgent need for practical, timely solutions in the fight against corruption.
Show Notes
• Transparency International – Ending the injustice of corruption by promoting transparency, accountability, and integrity: https://www.transparency.org/en
• Women Living Under Muslim Laws – A transnational feminist solidarity network: https://www.wluml.org/
• Afghanistan’s Ghost Soldiers – Learn more about how ghost soldiers expose corruption in military systems: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-59230564
Recommended
Transcript
Motivations of Activist Groups
00:00:14
Speaker
And as any group, even within activist groups, you would find like people who are there to get power and visibility and and use that for personal gain.
00:00:26
Speaker
But then you would also see a lot of people who are really thoughtful, who approach things from a very empathetic way. perspective but yet at the same time that empathy allows them to be open-minded enough to understand different perspectives when presented with it and these are the key types of people who are in my opinion most effective often these are the women in the group
00:00:58
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Techno-Spiritual Crossings.
Introduction to Techno-Spiritual Crossings Podcast
00:01:01
Speaker
I'm your host, Peter Wolff, and I'm joined by my podcast teammates Karthik Iyengar and Emily Montai. Hello.
00:01:09
Speaker
Hi. The podcast is our way to have discussions about what it's like to be human in the 21st century. And we talk to people committed to personal change and social evolution.
Invitation to Emma: Activism and Social Justice in Focus
00:01:23
Speaker
Today our guest is Mohammed. And as a way to get things started, i thought I would ask you Karthik, why did you want to have Emma be on the show and talk to us?
00:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, I met Emma a few few years ago and she's from Maldives and I'm from India. And we ended up talking and then we talked about a lot of subjects, ah lot of spirituality, a lot of mindfulness and and how to deal with injustice.
00:01:52
Speaker
And also saw and how to deal with corruption, which then ended up to be Emma's full-time obsession. She works in Transparency International and having dealt and seen corruption on a routine basis while I was in India, I mean, dealing with the subject.
00:02:09
Speaker
I thought it would be a great idea to have her on because I've always seen her standing up for disenfranchised people and she has a lot of funny as well as courageous stories. So it just felt like a very natural fit.
00:02:22
Speaker
I like this idea because she what she's doing really represents trying to make a concrete change in the world. And we can see in certain ways how um and not dealing with corruption every day is such a privilege and that kind of ripples out into so many other places in and our lives.
00:02:50
Speaker
And we're joining with Emma in Berlin. So she does live here.
Emma's Journey with Transparency International
00:02:55
Speaker
But as Emily said, yeah, her work is definitely not in and around Europe and Berlin in terms of the community impact.
00:03:04
Speaker
So let's hear from Emma. Let's do it. Yep.
00:03:17
Speaker
Hi Emma. Hi Peter. I'm so glad we have this session now to continue our conversation. Thank you for inviting me on TV podcast.
00:03:28
Speaker
I've been learning so much from talking to you. You have been working for 10 years at Transparency International. It's a very clear goal. It's a global movement working in over 100 countries to end the injustice of corruption by promoting transparency, accountability, and integrity.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yes, we are the leading organization working on anti-corruption. ah We have national chapters in over 100 countries and the mission is to eradicate corruption. ah well How we define corruption is the abuse of entrusted power for private gain. So what we are hoping for is to see a world free of corruption. And we think that this is an enabling framework ah for people to access other types of rights, such as right to health care, right to education, right to a safe safe environment, and so on.
00:04:25
Speaker
A question that we're asking everybody that comes onto the podcast, we would like to kind of capture the the present moment a bit by asking you, who are you right now?
00:04:36
Speaker
I mean, this is a really hard question to answer because it really depends on, I guess at any point in time, I'm playing like multiple roles, right? In many ways, I'm like a daughter. I am a partner. I am a...
00:04:52
Speaker
employee at Transparency International, but I'm also an activist. This is not just a job for me and someone who works on a lot of what we these days call social justice, different themes under that.
00:05:09
Speaker
I think what underlies all of this, I mean, like ah an underlying thread across all my different identities, would be, I hope to be, somebody who is oh is able to stand up for people who whose voices are being silenced, ah who's able to make... ah use of any power that I have to help make the world slightly more better, even if it is a small contribution.
00:05:41
Speaker
Wonderful. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that i learned about you is that you earned an advanced degree in gender studies. And after this, you joined Transparency International. i was So I was wondering,
00:05:55
Speaker
You know, was there a part of gender-based injustice that you saw that you wanted to do something about or that motivated you in some way?
Emma's Activist Roles: Family and Advocacy
00:06:04
Speaker
To be very honest, I actually joined Transparency International, the Maldives chapter. And my motivation when I first joined them was to get some experience running an NGO so that I could then move on and run a women's rights NGO.
00:06:21
Speaker
So this was this was kind of like the career intention there and I did not intend to stay this long. While I was working at Transparency International, I was also part of this group called, this network still exists, ah there's a group called Women Living Under Muslim Laws.
00:06:38
Speaker
So as part of my work with them, they they had this feminist workshop or conference in Senegal that but was sort of like a retreat for activists.
00:06:49
Speaker
ah where they showcased what they were doing in Senegal on women's rights and different things that affect women. when i When I went to that workshop, i realized that a lot of the rights-based programs that were be being run were just, their effectiveness was really, really limiting because of how corrupt societies were.
00:07:09
Speaker
And corruption, if you really think about it, it's an injustice that comes due to power in differences. And the way we work is basically, I mean, our main current strategy actually even says holding power to account.
00:07:25
Speaker
And in any kind of injustice or any kind of difference that we're trying to kind of tackle, the this approach to kind of standing up to power, which is inevitably corrupt, I find.
00:07:40
Speaker
But unless you you are able to stand up to... Most of the time, the powerful is is able to get a hold on people and systems because of corruption. So then I realized that these human rights issues are actually very closely intertwined with this power indifference that is enabled by corruption.
00:07:59
Speaker
So then I was like, okay, maybe I'm i'm not in the wrong NGO. Maybe this is where my work needs to go into.
Corruption's Impact on Human Rights
00:08:06
Speaker
So yeah, years later, I'm still here. There's so much work to be done.
00:08:11
Speaker
and just reading the news today. there's There's more and and more things where this power indifference and corruption just continues to creep onwards.
00:08:23
Speaker
So yeah, not surprised that you've continued to stay engaged in the work. Just for the sake of giving an example for maybe helping our our listeners understand more about how corruption or an anti-corruption work takes place,
00:08:38
Speaker
I wanted to ask you maybe if you could explain something that you had mentioned when we when we spoke earlier.
Explaining Ghost Soldiers and Corruption Practices
00:08:45
Speaker
You mentioned this idea of a ghost soldier, and I'd never heard of that before.
00:08:51
Speaker
And as it relates to anti-corruption, maybe you could just give a little story about what that is, and maybe if there's a ah technology implication in there as well. So a ghost soldier, so you could have a ghost anything. You could have a any public post, could be a ghost post, right? So in this particular example, anyone who's worked in the Afghanistan space on anti-corruption ah would be familiar with this.
00:09:19
Speaker
This is when, say, for example, army generals claim to have more soldiers than they actually have, but then pocket it to their salaries.
00:09:30
Speaker
So there are two types of ghost positions. One could be that you pretend that you have, say, 100,000 more soldiers than there is, and then you pocket, say, 100,000 into, say, 200 euros or 300 euros per head.
00:09:46
Speaker
You pocket that difference. Or alternatively, we've had examples where you just incrementally take a portion of the soldier or whoever the public position is,
00:09:57
Speaker
ah their salaries and the lower down you go, the less salary that person gets. To give an example, yeah, so this one's from the Afghan police.
Reducing Corruption with Technology in Afghanistan
00:10:07
Speaker
At some point, there was so much leakage in the police salary system that they basically made the whole system electronic, made everyone get a bank account, connected their bank account to their cell phones and made a direct transfers to these cell phone linked people.
00:10:26
Speaker
bank accounts, which meant that they were able to verify that these were actual people on the ground. and that their salaries were being transferred to an account that these people had access to.
00:10:37
Speaker
Quite a number of these police officers were actually shocked by their real salary because all these years they were getting salaries that like every but basically every layer took a portion of their salary. So the by the time you got your salary, when you're sitting in Kandahar or somewhere, by the time you got your salary,
00:10:57
Speaker
Say if you were supposed to get $100, you only got $20. So when this direct transfer happened, people were quite shocked by the fact that they were getting $100.
00:11:09
Speaker
So that's kind of like a semi-ghost situation, whereas is a complete ghost situation would be where these people don't even exist. And there's some general somewhere just taking money on behalf of these non-existent soldiers.
00:11:24
Speaker
You find similar examples. For example, in Pakistan, we found similar situations with ghost schools where entire school systems were just fake and set up and someone in some department was just stealing that money.
00:11:39
Speaker
Where is most of the money coming from ah to begin with? In different systems, there would be they will be coming from different spaces. So for example, in in Afghanistan case, very likely it came from external governments, donor governments that were setting up these systems in place.
00:11:55
Speaker
In Pakistan's case, it would have very likely come from the central government. Ultimately, at the end of the day, the money is coming from a taxpayer sitting somewhere. So just ordinary people like you and me.
00:12:08
Speaker
Good point. The impact there is that, you know, the people that are doing the work are actually getting paid more of what they deserve and yeah crack down on injustice. You know, the financial injustice is very positive change. So yeah, thanks for illuminating that.
00:12:32
Speaker
and and To make it a little bit more personal, I know you must have been involved in in many, many different projects. i was wondering if there's another example that you might share projects that you've worked on where you've seen a corruption situation and also ah change or a positive change after the fact of raising awareness around that.
Public Demand Reduces Petty Corruption in East Asia
00:12:52
Speaker
If you are looking at positive change, East Asia would be my favorite. Spaces like North and South, actually, China, Vietnam, Cambodia.
00:13:04
Speaker
I'm a bit kind of hesitant to frame this in a positive way. But when Transparency International started working, or we when we were formed in the ninety s Even speaking about corruption publicly with the government was considered extremely taboo.
00:13:22
Speaker
People did not talk about corruption at that time. And talking about corruption in a government-to-government negotiation or, say, for example, World Bank-to-Government or IMIT-to-Government negotiation would have been extremely taboo and people just did not bring it up.
00:13:40
Speaker
Now, ah almost 35 years later, we see massive movements across like places like Brazil, India, where the awareness around corruption is to an extent where there's huge political changes have been made because the general public just come out and say, look, we're not going to tolerate this anymore.
00:14:02
Speaker
What you're seeing across the world is that The middle class is stepping up more and more, saying that they just refuse to pay bribes, especially petty bribes. As a result, we have data that shows that in a lot of the East Asian countries, for example, governments have intervened to kind of cater for their citizen demands and reduced petty corruption to a quite a remarkable extent, I would say.
00:14:30
Speaker
And when we talk about petty corruption, Peter, we I mean, it might sound like ah small amounts of money to a lot of people sitting in the West, but if you are in a country where like small amounts of money can make a huge difference in your life, if you're in that strata of community where, say, even having like not having to pay a bribe to get your telephone connection or your four hours water lines connected,
00:14:57
Speaker
or your land papers in place or even birth certificates. ah These things make a huge difference. And when you get it, whether you get it within a five-year context or a 20-year context, makes a huge difference.
00:15:10
Speaker
So for example, if you are a mother waiting to vaccinate your children, the zero to five year window is when you need to get it done. And if your local hospital is so corrupt that they refuse to kind of provide these free services to you, you don't have the money to bribe.
00:15:25
Speaker
Your child is susceptible to say like extremely dangerous diseases such as polio. that could completely change the their trajectory in life. So the fact that petty corruption rates have reduced substantially in in some countries which used to have large oral populations, this for me personally is is a huge achievement ah that we acknowledge.
00:15:52
Speaker
In my lifetime at least, the the biggest change that I've seen is just the fact that people are talking about this. And I mean, if you even if you go to the most evil dictator, for example, they will not claim that corruption is a good thing.
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah, raising the awareness is an important step, especially if you described it as, you know, where we started from, is that it's too taboo to even mention. I've had a little exposure to petty
Activists Facing Peer Pressure and Ostracism
00:16:22
Speaker
corruption, enough to know it's unfair and it's tough to change. But, you know, we were talking about power structures where there potentially some kind of threat for not complying with the bribe. And I suppose that takes a lot of courage to overcome.
00:16:36
Speaker
so moving from this taboo and perhaps overcoming obstacles, you know, maybe even harm, I'm just wondering, what are some of the things that activists have to overcome?
00:16:48
Speaker
in terms of the risks that they face in order to make a difference? Context to context, these things vary. One thing that you could think about that would affect an activist personally, oh if you are in a small community, when you're speaking up against corruption, you are also speaking up against violence.
00:17:12
Speaker
not just powerful people within your community, but you're just speaking up against your peers, right? Or your family members or your old school principal or whoever.
00:17:23
Speaker
And people take these things really personally as well. For most activists, in my experience, the hardest thing to take would be that peer pressure that comes from standing up against something that is commonly accepted in society.
00:17:39
Speaker
or in a space where it's taboo to speak about something. Women's rights is a more clear example, I think. Patriarchies, for example, in communities are very kind of ingrained and practiced within families.
00:17:52
Speaker
So if you're standing up against patriarchal systems, often you're standing up against your own people, your own family, going for your own family. uncles or fathers or brothers, right?
00:18:04
Speaker
And I think the psychological stress of that for a lot of activists is quite a difficult. And this is the biggest prize that you pay as well going forward.
00:18:15
Speaker
More generic um or more system-wise, you could also face like jail time, police police brutality, a lot of these other things. But it's easier to face if you have a community around yourself that you you could kind of face it with.
00:18:31
Speaker
But the hardest thing to be is the lone activist. And this is the this is the type of people that I have the most respect for as well. If I see someone standing up against something that's like really unpopular within their own local context, then I'm always always in awe of these people.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's incredibly courageous and the in the United States or in the West. We understand that there's a right to stand up without fear of retaliation. And um we rely on things like the rule of law and those protections that we have as citizens. But this is not always the case in other places in the world, very different context.
00:19:11
Speaker
And as you said, you might be facing police brutality or jail time. and I've heard, you know, recently a story from an artist in Turkey, you know, and this this is an area of the world where standing up to injustice is is is very, very challenging.
00:19:29
Speaker
And, you know, facing jail time and other things like this are quite daunting. um One of the things that I'm curious about is ever pervasive and increasing surveillance
Social Media: A Double-Edged Sword for Activists
00:19:41
Speaker
technology. Is this making it more and more difficult for activists?
00:19:47
Speaker
I think if you remember the early 2010s, we were like super optimistic about Facebook and Twitter and all of these types of technology, which really did help mobilize people, helped mobilize, get people in touch with like-minded people.
00:20:05
Speaker
um So for example, I knew people in the Maldives who were who helping people all the way into rear square ah with um designing banners, these type of things.
00:20:16
Speaker
At that time, I think we were all quite optimistic on the social side of social media rather than the surveillance side of social media, right? And i think though the beginning of that was when when social media really was space where you could just organically get to know other like-minded people,
00:20:35
Speaker
I think the LGBTQI community but would have really good examples of this where if you were isolated in a small town or something and you didn't know anyone else like you, you go you went on the Internet, found someone with similar ideas just in terms of solidarity.
00:20:51
Speaker
that That, I think, was kind of like the golden window for activists in technology. And back then, at that time, activists were slightly a few steps ahead of the police in terms of usage.
00:21:06
Speaker
So you had all these tour networks, you had people just helping set up mirror sites, different ways of kind of going around police surveillance, and police was not there did not catch up, or at least we didn't think that they had taste's different surveilling.
00:21:22
Speaker
ah But now what we're finding is that a lot of the information that activists put online voluntarily, it's become a double-edged sword in the sense that your social media is now basically a surveillance tool that you're voluntarily providing information on.
00:21:41
Speaker
Your phone, I don't think that there is such a thing as a safe smartphone anymore. I do not treat my gadgets as as as something that is kind of completely safe. They will keep things confidential.
00:21:57
Speaker
Those days are just over. And I think with Snowden's revelation and just everything that came out after that, you realize that even the people who thought that they were being extremely smart with how they used their technology just was not the case.
00:22:13
Speaker
I mean, right now, for example, people our age have limited information online. This level of terminal onlineness happened, I would say, say 10 years ago, right?
00:22:25
Speaker
But can you imagine young people these days, i say, even if you're 20 years old, most of your data would probably be online, voluntarily put there by your parents.
00:22:36
Speaker
How do you kind of get out of that system? In Europe, at least, we have this thing called the right to to be forgotten. Not sure how long this would last or how practical it is in terms of erasing your online presence.
00:22:51
Speaker
I have not tried it. i don't know anyone who's used this ah system or even just how easy it is or how hard it is to access. I have no idea.
00:23:02
Speaker
I think we're just entering this space where... We have no control over the information about us online. And on top of that, with AI coming in, i am guessing that just the human element of control would be lost very soon.
00:23:18
Speaker
I don't know how this space will look like. I have to admit, i am quite afraid. Less afraid for myself because i am older. More afraid for younger ah generations of activists that are coming up.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah, understood. hadn't... really thought about the the generational effect and that your data trail is just that much longer at this point. Have you seen anything happening then with that awareness of, you know, by the younger generation, ways to address it or ways to overcome it or ways to um deal with that?
00:23:57
Speaker
No, so far I have not seen a convincing group of people acting on behalf of younger people. I genuinely feel like we are we are really betraying the next generation, similar to how like the previous generation betrayed all of us in terms of the environmental catastrophe that we are facing right now.
Leadership's Role in Data Privacy and Youth Protection
00:24:17
Speaker
We're doing the exact same thing, but from the perspective of technology to the kids that are going to be here in the future. I don't think that it's ill-intentioned. Maybe there are people with ill-intentioned, but it's it's just really hard for people to kind of envision the future. And then the people who are in that future space, for some reason, well, I think it's because of the lack of humanities education, but...
00:24:45
Speaker
for some reason, are not showing this leadership. I'm not seeing this leadership from Facebook. I'm not seeing this leadership from the current ah executives at Twitter. I don't expect to see this leadership in the future as long as it's commercially driven.
00:25:00
Speaker
The governance of that whole space is driven by the people who are who have a commercial interest in this. I mean, from kind of the current leadership or even the next president of the United States, for example, just based on the fact of their age, I don't see them stepping up to solve this problem either.
00:25:22
Speaker
China, you see from external observers, what we are seeing is that they do put in quite a lot of effort to protect their younger kids from addiction problems. So, for example, their version of TikTok, what I hear,
00:25:38
Speaker
is limited in terms of time usage. But then the the there is this question about the data that the government itself is collecting on the population.
00:25:49
Speaker
And this is not that convincing from from what we know, that the Chinese government has the best intentions in terms of protecting their citizens from what the actual government could do in terms of harm.
00:26:02
Speaker
So, so far, I am not super optimistic about this, I have to say. Yeah, understood. um Thanks for bringing that in. Well, definitely one of the things we want to explore more on on the podcast, Techno Spiritual Crossings, is the implications of technology, how technologies change so quickly, the way in which we use it, and then contrast it with the slow pace of human evolution.
00:26:28
Speaker
Many of the people that we speak to, conversation is focused on that personal change or personal evolution. so I like the way our conversation is going to really point out all the challenges inherent in systemic change, big problems with corruption, how groups of people can come together and impact that. and um There's just one other point I was curious about, and that is, i mean yeah, there are risks inherent in being an activist, but In which ways are activists needing to change or grow to either to be more effective or to just increase the network effect of of activism and having a larger group of people that are you know behind you, including perhaps an NGO um that can come in with additional support.
Empathy and Open-Mindedness in Activism
00:27:22
Speaker
The most effective activists that I've worked with are the people who have the ability to keep an open mind and who are able to change their minds when present presented with different information from what they know.
00:27:36
Speaker
there is there i mean there Of course, there are a lot of people who are able to do it, but there are also a lot of people who are quite loud who are unable to do it as well. And as any group, even within activist groups, you would find like people who are there to get power and visibility and and use that for personal gain.
00:27:56
Speaker
But then you would also see a lot of people who are really thoughtful, who approach things from a very empathetic perspective. But yet at the same time, that empathy allows them to be open open-minded enough to understand different perspectives when presented with it.
00:28:14
Speaker
And these are the key types of people who are, in my opinion, most effective. Often, these are the women in the group, often in large groups of human mobilization.
00:28:29
Speaker
And this includes political parties, labor unions, activist groups, Women tend to be the grassroots workers and usually the men tend to take the leadership positions, go represent people in international forums.
00:28:45
Speaker
And you would find this across the board if you look at like larger civil society gatherings as well. The male to female ratio ah would be skewed and the leadership ratio would also be skewed.
00:28:57
Speaker
To be very clear, I'm not saying that women are inherently better at these things than men. I don't think so. No, I understand that it's, it's anecdotal based on your experience, but at the same time, you know, as a coach and specifically a leadership development coach are, these are the qualities and traits, you know, that, that demonstrates that this kind of leadership, you know, the being able to connect empathetic leadership, being able to have an open mind, this is what creates a connection, communication,
00:29:33
Speaker
And as you said, effectiveness. So generally, these are the qualities and traits that we're wanting to see in leadership, not only in activism, but in politics, in the corporate space all over, because these leadership qualities tend to bring more respect to human relationships Empathy is what is key. I think the thing about empathy is that then it decreases how you other the group that you consider different from you.
00:30:00
Speaker
And that is normally where problems lie in terms of pushing things forward, that there is an in-group and an out-group. The kind of organization is done in such a way that you really demonize the other person, external group.
00:30:14
Speaker
The kind of baggage that comes with the othering of people, this usually just cause yeah more harm than but Like from your answer so far was what are the qualities or ways in which people need to grow and learn?
Mutual Learning in Workshops: Organizations and Communities
00:30:28
Speaker
It would be in these kind of soft skills, open mind, empathy. Humility.
00:30:34
Speaker
And is that a role that you play or that an NGO might play to help activists be more effective? In the organization I work with currently, we try to do a lot of trainings and capacity building work.
00:30:49
Speaker
ah with the groups we work on. But having said that, I have to say that we also learn a lot from the groups. It's more of a peer learning rather than us. You always, always learn from people that you normally like, and I've conducted a lot of workshops and trainings.
00:31:07
Speaker
And usually, there's always a lot that you learn from the groups of people that you are working from. So just to give an example, once when I was quite new to this space, I was conducting a workshop on vote buying.
00:31:20
Speaker
And I was basically just lecturing people saying hey, do not sell your votes. And then in the end, just to take a break, I said, how many of you sold your votes in the last election?
00:31:33
Speaker
i thought was a fun question just to get in some kind of an audience rappel. And then one woman raised her hand and and she said, oh, I sold my vote last election. Just shocked to me I was just like, oh, thank goodness.
00:31:46
Speaker
How do I respond to this? And I did not have a response. So then I said, just to buy some time, I said, oh, ah why? Why did you sell your vote? And she said, look, um so she had a five-year-old daughter who needed a heart surgery ah because she had a congenital heart disease.
00:32:04
Speaker
ah And this millionaire who ran for for the presidency at that time said that he will pay for her heart surgery and ah he'll fly her to wherever, and the parents to wherever to get this heart surgery done.
00:32:19
Speaker
So then she said that she basically, around... 27 or something her family members guaranteed their vote to this person. And at the end of the day, if you're a mother and your child needs surgery, like, wouldn't you do this?
00:32:36
Speaker
You would, right? If you didn't, what kind of a mother are you? So that particular incident really, really kind of shocked me into thinking about what we were teaching people and how...
00:32:47
Speaker
In a way, even arrogant, we were no going into a community and saying, look, do not sell your vote when this is the situation of the community. So yes, sometimes our organization teaches things, but also most of the time we're learning from people.
00:33:01
Speaker
Thank you for that. And we're about out of time here. I'm just wondering if there's anything else that you felt that you would like to share about your work as a way to wrap up?
Corruption as a Barrier to Rights Access
00:33:12
Speaker
I think this message around corruption being kind of a gateway prime towards ripping people of their other rights, think this would be like my main message that I would like to put out there.
00:33:26
Speaker
For us, even the word corruption just sounds so economic and it does not sound like something anybody wants to fight, to be honest. But if you if you really think about it, if you want to solve a lot of the other issues in your community. It's a good lens to look at ah where the power structures lie, who is in a position to misuse power without accountability, and how do we set up the system in such a way that it is prevented, easier to prevent than to kind of prosecute. Yeah, excellent.
00:34:01
Speaker
And thank you so much for having the conversation and raising awareness around this. I've learned so much and i have many more questions. But for right now, we'll wrap it up and and just say thank you. Thank you very much for the conversation and look forward to talking to you again. Thank you so much for inviting me.
00:34:33
Speaker
Top job. Carthing, I'm glad that you did invite Emma to come talk to us. I learned so much. I didn't realize the impact of how corruption works in every everywhere else in the world or in other places in the world.
00:34:46
Speaker
When she said that a big win in the in the action or the activism against corruption is simply building awareness of it. It shows me that there's there's so much ground to take.
00:35:01
Speaker
But even you know even in our Western world, we see the that corruption on a large scale continues to take place. i I loved how she said corruption is injustice due to power indifferences and that the whole um challenge is to hold power to account. And I think you really, you really see that, like you said, Peter, in societies all over the world when you have.
00:35:30
Speaker
great power in differences, whether they be economic or social or gender-based, that's when you see corruption take root. um I think that's just like that framing itself kind of tells us what the task is, is to is to equalize, to level the playing field for people.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah, i just want to circle back to the the whole awareness thing that Peter mentioned. Yeah, I mean, it's always the the hard part, right? Like, I mean, Emma mentioned this thing about like the lone activist and how it's the hardest job to do.
00:36:08
Speaker
And then I found myself asking myself, how would I like deal with this situation where where i need like to get something done or I need an operation done and I would have to do the same thing that she mentioned in and in one of her examples.
00:36:21
Speaker
Um, yeah, I guess the awareness does really help. I mean, there is power in numbers and also like rallying other people and like asking them or like helping them to do the right thing does like shift the balance of power back into your hands in some way.
00:36:37
Speaker
Although it's a very lonely and a hard road to walk. i I found it interesting how she did talk about the ways that technology has helped to do this, like digitalizing salaries, for example, to to make it to make it impossible for hire hires up to steal the salaries of those further down the totem pole.
00:37:05
Speaker
And it also made me think of...
00:37:08
Speaker
These stories of like girls in Afghanistan receiving money in Bitcoin, which has allowed them to sort of like bypass a system that won't allow them to get money. And I think this is you know surprising coming from me. I'm giving like the positive examples of technology actually working well in anti-corruption, but Emma also gave some stark warnings when it comes to social media and data collection and activism.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say that it was sobering, but I think it's it's also useful to to actually tell the truth about... We don't know exactly what what's being created in terms of all the data that's being collected about individuals and how possibly that could be used in the future.
00:38:01
Speaker
um Yes, definitely good that we're talking about that, grappling with it, even though we don't have solutions. I think there is a lot of nuance to that conversation. Actually, I think this whole thing is basically a cat and mouse race between like big tech operations and unconventional ways to mobilize.
New Mobilization Methods Amid Surveillance
00:38:20
Speaker
Um, we've seen like very historically, like as soon as like something became mainstream or became surveyed, people came up with alternate ways of doing things. For instance, there are peer to peer messaging applications now that are supposed to be more secure than a centralized.
00:38:36
Speaker
centralized messaging scheme in case the government decides to shut you down. so I guess it's about how we continue to evolve and find new ways to to to mobilize, despite the fact that we have a lot of surveillance at this point.
00:38:53
Speaker
That even reminds me of this film I just saw last week called Join or Die um about the role of like clubs and social organizations and in a healthy democracy.
00:39:07
Speaker
And there was a point in that discussion about how not every technology that's like the latest iteration of it is actually the best. And they were talking about how like emails and listservs of neighborhood organizations actually kind of bring the community together in a better way than these larger social networks.
00:39:27
Speaker
And so I think we can also kind of look for solutions, even in technology, even if it's not the latest thing, actually the best thing may have been ah first iteration. What do you think about this whole aspect of willingness to change, especially in the context of your leadership coaching?
Essential Leadership Traits Across Sectors
00:39:44
Speaker
Do you think that's also a good indicator of whether you can yeah i mean I think it's it's interesting that not only Emma, but other people really pointing to open mind and empathy and that ability to connect as these are are the qualities that help change.
00:40:04
Speaker
enable change. She mentioned, I mean, Emma mentioned this in terms of a kind of training that she might offer to activists in the local environment.
00:40:17
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's one of the similarities that I see. i think she she also mentioned specifically humility. And I'm wondering how in coaching would you teach humility?
00:40:33
Speaker
ah One doesn't teach humility in coaching. I would say it it is and is something you practice. It's something that that you become humble.
00:40:47
Speaker
And that humbleness is really created by curiosity. it's a way It's the mindset that you bring with a lot of listening.
00:40:59
Speaker
As C.S. Lewis says, it's not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. Yeah. Yeah, I really like to to reality check all of this and see how it translates when you actually have these situations in the real world, Yeah.
00:41:15
Speaker
I mean, usually like a lot of people like to be idealistic about the whole thing and then they take a position where they really don't want to support corruption in any way, shape or form. But the reality of it is that like, it's kind of really hard to take an opinion opinionated stance because it often comes at the the the price of convenience or it comes at the price of necessity and safety.
00:41:41
Speaker
yeah I thought it was interesting that the example that she gave in terms of the success in India, in terms of people standing up against corruption, were the middle class.
00:41:52
Speaker
So I don't know what you think about this, but it sounds like those perhaps that have less to lose can actually step up to the plate because there are other resources that they can turn towards.
00:42:06
Speaker
And that's definitely the case in you know in other countries. Yeah, I think it's it's it's really necessary to look at the the group and peer pressure dynamics of how this works, right? Like, I mean, let's assume you're a cop and you decide to not take a bribe, but you're also operating in the context of like 10 other cops who are probably willing to take a bribe.
00:42:31
Speaker
And if you're the person who stands in the way, they are going to ostracize you and make your life difficult and also put you in harm's way if they can. And that's how it propagates because at some point you ask, is this really worth my life?
00:42:45
Speaker
And most of the times the answer to that is no. Uh, but we've seen that the only way to like create meaningful change here is to also like rally um because rally as in like get power in numbers, you know, and, uh, this is what actually like worked in, for instance, India, or also like all of the other examples that were brought up because people really realize that it's having a negative effect on, on the, the, the whole fabric of the country in general.
00:43:16
Speaker
Right. You, can say it's not totally dissimilar to taking taking money from super PACs, in for example, with U.S. politicians. like If there was less money in politics, ah then politicians wouldn't be so corrupt.
00:43:34
Speaker
But in order to get elected, politicians need money, so they take money from big corporations who then influence what they do. This is another type of corruption or bribery, we could call it. And to stand up against that,
00:43:48
Speaker
ah to not take those corporate or super PAC donations um requires a lot of courage and also a huge base of group support.
00:44:00
Speaker
Yeah. And so sort it's it's just important to understand that you don't really have the amount of agency that you think you have in a country that's not in the West, for instance. Um,
00:44:13
Speaker
I'm saying West, but I mean like a country that doesn't really have like strong legal frameworks. um Because you're rendered helpless, the media is not going to take your case up because the media is usually like pro-government or pro-establishment.
00:44:30
Speaker
And yeah, the cops are definitely not going to take your case up because that's also like going directly against ah the ruling regime or absolute power. So it's really hard to stand up in these sorts of settings.
00:44:42
Speaker
She mentioned the case about when she was in a workshop and asked asked the group, did anybody sell their vote? and yeah Of course, this is also something that I don't think about very much. I've only had the experience experience of voting in and the United States or in Germany.
00:45:02
Speaker
And I trust that it is a fair election. When I just watched a ah newscast today, they're having elections in Moldova, well, reported by a lot of journalists and investigative reporters who seem to have a lot of evidence that 300,000 votes were were purchased for for the opposition or the pro-Russia government.
00:45:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think and in in many underprivileged economies, it's quite ah mainstream to like buy people's votes by just giving them basic amenities, like, I don't know, like a television or or something or the other that might be of immediate utilitarian use, right?
00:45:43
Speaker
And most of the times, it's it's it's all relative, right? Like, how better is my life if I get a TV versus how better is my life if this corrupt politician replaces the other previous corrupt politician? I believe Elon Musk is hosting a some sort of thing where every day he gives a million dollar check to somebody for voting. Yeah. But of course this is, you know, theoretically voting for Trump.
00:46:09
Speaker
I feel like we frame this differently talking about transparency, international even. We frame this ah differently in like Western and non-Western countries. But somehow it's just that we call it.
00:46:20
Speaker
or we don't We don't call it out. I think like recognizing it and calling it out is important. I just feel like The reason why we don't call it out in the West is that corruption just operates on a different level here. yeah it's It's on an invisible level. It's behind the scenes.
00:46:37
Speaker
Right. Except when it's in your face.
00:46:41
Speaker
but I'm referencing the fact that you can't like essentially go and like bribe a cop to do something for you or you can't bribe like a government official to like pull the strings for you. um and That's why it doesn't come into notice. But as soon as like there is an incident that has immediate implications in life, like for instance, a construction job that was botched,
00:47:03
Speaker
um then I think there's low republic uproar in more developed countries. Yeah, because there's the laws on the books that have specifically been enacted to prevent this thing from happening again, from a building from falling down. And because all these laws came from experiences of corrupt officials that caused a public safety hazard. hazard Sometimes we're talking about money.
00:47:29
Speaker
Like the corruption is actually the the money. But I think it's also important to say That money is a form of power. and that Corruption actually just tends to be around these the power imbalances. yeah and We can see this in more than just the highly dramatic things that we watch in the news.
00:47:49
Speaker
It happens in our families. It happens in our communities. It happens in our corporations. It happens in our teams. that this is something that we're all always trying to be more aware of and do something about.
00:48:01
Speaker
And then kind of bringing back to that point is that leadership qualities that include emotional intelligence and empathy are ways in which we can connect more at a person-to-person level.
00:48:16
Speaker
instead of kind of just being driven by that inner thirst for power.
Humanities Education and Ethical Technology Policies
00:48:22
Speaker
Yeah, Emma mentions the lack of humanities education as a precursor to why we have like holes in policy when it comes to having strong data privacy laws or having strong ethics around how to deal with technology.
00:48:36
Speaker
And she might actually be onto to something because as as much as the the emphasis on education right now is a collection of knowledge as in the ways and means to do things, it's not really referencing the how, or it's not really ah referencing what's right or what's wrong or how to determine that by yourself and how to perceive.
00:48:54
Speaker
I think if if we focus on that a lot more in terms of how we educate like future generations, then it might actually lead to better policy making because let's face it, right? Like the the current crop of leadership is in and inadequate in terms of redefining the ways that current systems work to accommodate what it's evolved to.
00:49:18
Speaker
No one really knew the implications of like Facebook, for instance. And right now we don't really know how to deal with it. tech education needs to imply a component of like very comprehensive philosophical education and also a diversifying of the tech workforce in a major way. but in In that regard, Peter, about po what you were saying about power, I think um a way to equalize power is exactly what you're doing here on this podcast. You have the nice voice and you're the host, but you're sharing the mic with us.
00:49:53
Speaker
And that's exactly an example of equalizing. hu Yeah, I like that. I forgot what I was going to say before you said that.
00:50:07
Speaker
Yeah, I also had like a really interesting point. Thanks, Yamuna.
00:50:15
Speaker
I think it's also interesting how she frames like corruption as like an enabling framework for people to access other rights. Yes.
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah, because what is actually happening with this whole power is that its it's devaluing human lives because it's equating human lives with money.
Corruption and Societal Disposability Issues
00:50:36
Speaker
And this is so also I've seen this in like firsthand experience in India because of of how corrupt society is. I mean, human lives do become disposable just by virtue of having money. Someone else's life doesn't mean that much to you. ah So, yeah, I do believe her when she says that like this is a problem that deserves more of her attention.
00:50:55
Speaker
It's also interesting because it's one has to wonder why aren't we why aren't we focusing on these problems in particular? Because the people in power have too much to gain from us not focusing on corruption.
00:51:07
Speaker
And I guess one of the things that the point that I mentioned before is just to be looking out for the ways in which we ourselves are are seeking power, seeking advantage.
00:51:24
Speaker
Maybe we require or we have friends or communities to to help keep us in check. I'm really interested in the question is, and what are these fundamental human characteristics?
00:51:37
Speaker
And I seem to find, i mean, you might call it greed, but it's like the the need for advantage, the need which comes from the need to protect, protect your interests, protect your family, protect your tribe.
00:51:52
Speaker
To survive. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And think back into like the the days of kingdoms and dynasties. This was like huge masses of power that then become institutionalized until there's a revolution.
00:52:09
Speaker
And then it seems to be that you know in the modern times we have more of an awareness that we want to things have things to be more equal.
00:52:20
Speaker
But we're still struggling against our of basic human nature. Well, it'll be interesting in future podcasts to get into how we as humans evolve even more deeply.
00:52:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:52:36
Speaker
Stay tuned. but Thanks for joining us and being part of the conversation. We'd love to hear your comments. So write us at the email in the show notes. And if you like our podcast, please subscribe.
00:52:49
Speaker
Today's podcast was produced and edited by Karthik Iyengar, Emily Montai, and me, Peter Wolff. Additional technical support by Eric Jelic.
00:53:00
Speaker
Original music by Heston Mims. This has been Techno Spiritual Crosses.