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The Dopamine Slot Machine - A Parent's Guide to your Child's First Console
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The Dopamine Slot Machine - A Parent's Guide to your Child's First Console
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts' Backgrounds
00:00:07
Speaker
Good morning, good day, good evening. Whenever you are, welcome to the Dopamine slot machine, the podcast that discusses what you need to know about the video games your children are playing. How are they designed to get your kids hooked? How do they make money from your children? And what you can do to make your child's relationship with video games a positive one. My name is Andrew. I'm a dad of two and a lifelong gamer.
00:00:28
Speaker
And I'm Brandon, a consumer research psychologist and an ex-professional esports coach.
Understanding Game Consoles
00:00:34
Speaker
This week, we're going back to basics, covering what you need to know if your child's got their first consult recently.
00:00:40
Speaker
So to start off with, at risk of stating the obvious, what is a games console? Well, it's it's a computer built for playing games. PlayStation, Switch, Xbox, whichever one you get, a lot of what we discuss will be common across all of them. Nintendo might market their console. The Switch is being more child and family friendly, whereas Sony's PlayStation targets a more mature
Online vs Offline Games: Risks and Concerns
00:00:59
Speaker
audience. But they are both kids targeted and mature games on all consoles.
00:01:04
Speaker
One of the things coming across all consoles is some games will be offline and some will be online only. Brandon, can you run us through some of the things parents might be concerned about with online video games? Yeah, sure. So the the main thing in terms of the distinction between offline and online video games is almost the environments that they're in. So an offline video game, it's almost on rails. So when you look at that PG rating, where it's 13 plus, 18 plus, if it's an offline game, it's a very very it's almost a very regulated environment. You know, the factors that are in play, the influences that are involved.
00:01:38
Speaker
The moment that it's an online environment, depending on the nature of that um online online environment, it opens up to basically the world of the internet in a lot of ways, where depending on that company's moderation, your child or you as an individual can be exposed to a huge variety of factors, things, and communities.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i I know from my own experiences that I've seen racism, I've seen sexism, I've seen violent messaging, really quite a horrific stuff in games that supposed to be PG and not because the game themselves but as you say because of the the online environment that is impossible to keep regulated. Exactly and that's the key distinction really is that if it's a linear experience it's very easy to hold a creator or a game studio accountable for the content that that is playing to people. The moment you open it up to the wider world it gets more murky and complicated where unless there's something
00:02:40
Speaker
unbelievably obvious in terms of directionality, it's hard to keep these game studios accountable. But they are the ones profiting from making this content available to potentially young and vulnerable people.
00:02:53
Speaker
the the unregulated environment and the interactions that children might have online is something that's been raised to me by parents I know a few times.
The Gaming Industry's Financial Impact
00:03:02
Speaker
But another thing that's cropped up a few times is kids' real reluctance to stop a game or leave a game, particularly if it's an online game. And I actually remember saying this exact same thing to my parents only a few short years ago. And that is,
00:03:21
Speaker
I can't pause it. It's an online game. Can you expand a little bit more on that? Yes, I can, Andrew. And I was also, and in quotation marks, a few short years ago, saying that to my parents. But in essence, a lot of these games and online environments require real-time collaboration in some form. And as a byproduct of that, you can't really pause that because you'll be impacting everyone else's online environment.
00:03:48
Speaker
And so what I'd always recommend in this case is planning and communication. So if you are going into an environment like that, hey, I'm going to be busy for the next hour. Or if you're planning that time with your kid or child,
00:04:05
Speaker
ensure that you they basically don't try to interrupt halfway through and be like, hey, can you go do the dishes? Wait for before and after. And then that's a really fantastic way of illustrating your understanding, interest and support for healthy engagement in these online spaces. Well, that's that's fantastic.
00:04:22
Speaker
and On a completely different note, something that I don't think a lot of parents realise is just how much money is in video games as an entertainment stream. ah ah It's really easy to think of video games as being made by individuals or small companies as a niche interest, but really, video games are huge.
00:04:40
Speaker
Now, as I mentioned, I'm a lifelong gamer and I didn't realize this, but as a as a medium, it's pulling in over twice as much money as film. You think of all the money in Hollywood. there There's more money in in the in the console in your living room than there is there. And as part of that, there's going to be psychologists involved.
00:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, of course, Andrea. It's such a great question because it's something that I almost experienced personally in the course of my career. So before joining the consumer research space, I worked in health care, kind of building hospitals in people's own home. ah So this was very, very jarring for me, too. But we're talking about hundreds of millions of pounds.
00:05:21
Speaker
Of course, there are very, very large teams of psychologists. There are very, very large teams of people that specialize in branding, marketing, user experience.
Psychological Tactics in Gaming
00:05:31
Speaker
And all of these individuals have one thing in mind, and that's they're almost performing a battalion to kind of compete in the the battleground of attention of your child.
00:05:41
Speaker
And a byproduct of that is that they're not trying to create products that excite you. They're not a group of, let's say, six very, very passionate software developers who are trying to create a piece of art. We're talking about a corporate machine with one thing in mind, which is try to take as much of the your child's attention or lifespan almost away from them so that they can incentivize buying things inside their store or or paid advertising.
00:06:08
Speaker
And that's, in essence, what props up the entire industry. And as long as you put it in that box, and you can engage with it in a healthy way. But I think it's it's a really, really important thing to acknowledge that these things don't happen by accident. They are by design.
00:06:23
Speaker
So one name a lot of our listeners might be familiar with is Roblox. Now Roblox is a quote unquote free game. Roblox is also a 40 billion with a B dollar corporation with two and a half thousand employees. right And entirely supported through microtransactions.
00:06:46
Speaker
That's a good point. A lot of you probably don't know what a microtransaction is. It just refers to small real money payments within a game. This can be buying new content such as level packs or buying in-game outfits. A lot of the ones that are sold in Roblox will be think but items that your character wears, for instance, or temporary power-ups.
00:07:10
Speaker
And again, to go back to Roblox as an example, there are a number of games where you can pay real money to gain a temporary advantage in the game. And a lot of free games, I always say if...
00:07:22
Speaker
if If a game is free, if your child is playing a free game, then you really need to ask yourself how it is that it's making money. And one of those ways is that it's actually paid to win. So paid to win is sort of the dark side of free games. our Games that are free to play, but where winning often comes down to how much money you have put in.
00:07:40
Speaker
That might look like overpowered items locked behind a microtransaction or your performance in the game being directly tied to how much in-game currency you you're willing to spend. Clash of Clans, Candy Crush, Marvel Snap are all great examples of this type of game. And you can imagine with but a child who might have a shaky understanding of the value of money or even worse, a child who's on a device which has their parents' card connected and they like you see this crop up in the news all the time, it's it's very easy. You'll see games that are are designed to effectively trick children into playing, but Brandon, that's probably something that you can speak a lot more about than me.
00:08:27
Speaker
Andrea, such a great talking point, really. So we we just spoke about how how much money is in these industries, right? And as a byproduct of that, there's teams of people that are trying to basically fight for your child's attention and more importantly, their money.
00:08:45
Speaker
I want one of the one of the mechanisms that they do this with is that you may spend ten pounds to let's say your child wants because of cosmetic or maybe even you want to cosmetic in a video game that makes your character look a little bit different for whatever reason and the first thing that company will do is obfuscate the value of that money.
00:09:04
Speaker
So they'll transfer it into gems they'll transfer it into some other name be bucks and that's to basically try to detach it from the real world monetary value of the money that you're actually putting in.
00:09:19
Speaker
The next thing I'll do is the thing that you'd want, let's let's say 10 pounds, is it won't be 10 pounds or 10 euros. It will be kind of less than that. So it'll be like eight euros, eight pounds. So now you're in this position where you'll buy the you know you the thing that you would like.
00:09:39
Speaker
but you've got a little bit left over and that's a waste and that brings you 10-20% of the way there to to basically purchasing your next cosmetic so it's designed to kind of snowball you into spending even more money in these environments and this is just one of the techniques that these companies do and again for clarity These companies do it as a byproduct through design through teams of hundreds of people that are basically testing the effectiveness of these techniques in order to grab your child or yourself's attention or money in the most effective way possible.
Gaming Rewards and Casino Parallels
00:10:18
Speaker
Wow.
00:10:19
Speaker
I'll put like that. like I consider myself fairly savvy, and this podcast wouldn't be coming together if I didn't consider myself fairly savvy. But I think even I'm shocked by the level of control and the level of data that is going into this. But it's not the only it's not the only way that games companies are refining their systems to to be to take advantage of children. And there's a lot of talk at the moment, if you are involved in perhaps smartphone free childhood circles or follow any of Jonathan Haidt's work, about the reward mechanisms that social media uses, for instance. Now, a lot of our audience might not really know what a reward mechanism is. So do you want to explain to us?
00:11:14
Speaker
Well, a reward mechanism in its like base function in a really digestible way is when you do things and they make you feel good, you want to do more of them. And we've been basically evolved as an animal right yeah ah ah in order to seek out as much of that as possible because it's been tied to our survival for the well the majority, all of human history.
00:11:39
Speaker
it's It's funny. it's The games industry is one of the only industries I know which is so transparent in the way that they do try and encourage people to keep playing. And the only example that I can think of in comparison really is is casinos. There's a fantastic book, Addiction by Design, Machine Gambling in Las Vegas. The author's name escapes me.
00:12:06
Speaker
but the The name you're looking for is Natasha D. Skoll, and she is an absolute rock star. She's she's on the the the the the top of the ivory tower of psychologists in this space. Wow, so why why why don't you explain? games Games versus casinos, what sort of parallels are there?
00:12:27
Speaker
It's a really, really big topic and something that we'll probably fully explore in future episodes. But I think the biggest one is that they both have this kind of intersection, which is flow states. So when you're really immersed in something and you kind of forget about time, and this is seen very, very often in sports.
00:12:45
Speaker
You know, when you think of ah answering a tennis serve, you kind of have to let your body take control. And this kind of flow state is one of the the greatest predictors of really great outcomes, such as well-being and happiness in your life. But unfortunately, it's also the greatest predictor in ah slot machine addiction and game addiction as well. And both these states have presence in both of those aspects. ah ah So it's a very kind of bi-directional state, but it is a key driver in
Roblox vs. Minecraft: Influence on Children
00:13:17
Speaker
addictive tendencies. And it's inevitably one of the main reasons why people start forming unhealthy relationships with video games. Okay. i why we Why don't we take a look at some of the most popular video games and just have have a think about
00:13:33
Speaker
Are they something that we could recommend? Let's let's start with Roblox. So in your opinion, having deep-dived into Roblox a little bit outside of the podcast, should I let my daughter play Roblox? And if if so, why? And if not, why not?
00:13:47
Speaker
andrew like it it's This space can be really, really complex. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners can almost sense that in terms of their interpretation of it. But there's something innately to Roblox that makes me very, very uncomfortable, which is that it's almost like a sandbox environment. And what not what I mean by that, it's not a game. It's almost like an environment for other people to make games in.
00:14:12
Speaker
So what you have is a bunch of very technical savvy probably seventeen to thirty five year olds who are designing pieces of entertainment that any of these any of these players can engage with regardless of their age and.
00:14:27
Speaker
in that competitive marketplace. So imagine it's like a Facebook marketplace and you're looking for good authors. One of the ways that you can compete very successfully for young attention is novelty and almost edginess. And subsequently, it's almost like it's baked in as a breeding ground for this really, really negative inflammatory content. I mean, i remember only a couple of years ago, there were headlines about Roblox strip clubs.
00:14:56
Speaker
yeah go Google it. i'm I'm not joking here. Yeah, this is is exactly my point, which is the moment that you create a marketplace that inside a gaming environment like Roblox that is competing for the attention and a big portion of that attention is very, very young people.
00:15:15
Speaker
People are going to use that marketplace or to try to get an edge in that marketplace to basically create increasingly edgy and almost like restricted content. We were all young. We always we all know what that would that was like. And it makes me, so there's something sincerely, there's something very intrinsically uncomfortable about that to me, which is that it's almost by design is that they these people, these companies, they do know.
00:15:42
Speaker
that by creating these marketplaces they'll be able to increase user attention retention by not moderating these spaces because it's what makes people keep coming back. I want to compare it to another game which most parents will have heard of that looks very similar to Roblox but from experience completely different and that's Minecraft. So just to start off with for the parents who aren't aware Minecraft is a game where you mine, you build Basically, it's basically digital Lego, right? you you build You build a house, you build whatever you want within the confines of the digital world. It can be online. It is one of the games that i actually but we actually let my daughter play. But yeah, let's let's hear your ah view of Minecraft.
00:16:28
Speaker
Well, Minecraft in a lot of cases, because it's a more of a linear experience quintessentially, is one of those safe kind of guardrail environments. On top of that, it's an environment for creativity where you're rewarded for your efforts. You want to build a big castle that's going to take a lot of stone. You've got to go mine that stone blocks yourself. And you kind of get that end-to-end reward cycle where you have a lot of hard, monotonous effort and something beautiful in the end. Fantastic, really reflects the real world.
00:16:58
Speaker
The only dangers around Minecraft is, again, when you have this kind of unregulated open community. So the moment that maybe your son or daughter starts engaging with online versions of Minecraft servers is where the danger can happen. But it's very, very clear. It's less prevalent than a lot of these other environments, such as Roblox.
00:17:20
Speaker
One thing that we found really successful actually is setting up a Minecraft server that is supervised and she'll just play with her friends there and only with her friends and supervised by the parents of said friends. So she's getting that sort of digital third space experience without the common experience of that unregulated online environment.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's if that's like so beautiful. yeah know I'm sure that that you're she's generating all these like core memories. you know it's Some of my favorite memories growing up are on video games in in this really safe creative space. you know and And creativity is just such an important element to foster in in a young life. So I think that's just such a fantastic solution. And and it these types of approaches, I would just actively encourage.
00:18:16
Speaker
shifting Shifting from creativity to to violence. Violence in video games, isn't that a perennial topic?
Fortnite and Gambling Tactics
00:18:23
Speaker
Fortnite for our listeners is another quote-unquote free video game. We mentioned Robux, they have something called V-Bux which is very similar as well with that digital currency that you spend real money on to buy in-game items.
00:18:40
Speaker
you You drop in, you you play around trying to try and be the last person surviving on a map. What are your thoughts on Fortnite? Andrew, Andrew, Andrew, me and you both know this is an unbelievably loaded question. i For at home, we've got to be careful for this not turning into a two hour rant about why I think Fortnite is as intentionally malicious as it is.
00:19:08
Speaker
But Fortnite is, in in my opinion, a game that's kind of masquerading as a competitive game, but is designed almost exclusively in its essence to be this quick reward mechanism without actually rewarding any of that effort. So we spoke about Minecraft briefly, where you have to build, if you want to build a big castle, you have to build those rocks. In Fortnite, the majority of players ah get to quickly churn through games or like joining an environment, leaving an environment, joining an environment until they almost get lucky to then win. It kind of sounds like a slot machine, which I think is appropriate for the name of this podcast. And I will go into greater detail in a future episode, but it's it's a bit out of the scope for this one. But in short, Fortnite is one of these environments which I think regulated time on is so important as a byproduct of basically how it engages with reward circuits.
00:20:05
Speaker
it's It's recently been in the news actually because a refund of $72 million dollars has gone out and total refunds will be over $240 million dollars to but basically they were told to pay it out because of the number of people who had engaged in microtransactions without parents knowing.
00:20:29
Speaker
So yes, it's almost as if they've designed this thing to how to to develop really, really strange responses from young consumers. Well, that's only two million dollars. It's just the cost of doing business. Yeah. well Well, well, knowing that's the majority of their user base, you know, unreal. So to take a completely different one, because we've spoken about three I mean, Minecraft, you can play single player as well, but three online multiplayer game, and that's
Zelda's Enriching Experience vs Other Games
00:21:02
Speaker
Zelda. So again, for our listeners at home, Zelda is a it's a series of single player, what's called role playing games.
00:21:12
Speaker
You play as a like one character, you're going through a story, quite long stories in a couple of instances. And contrasting Zelda with the three games we've mentioned, but what's what's your take on it? um Well, there's a lot of variation here in terms of how individuals kind of on a baseline engage with these platforms. But in essence,
00:21:36
Speaker
If you compare Zelda to Fortnite, in my opinion, you're you're kind of comparing Hello Magazine to the works of Shakespeare. One of them doesn't really enrich you in any particular way. It has no beginning or end. It's just always there, always drama and always unfulfilling. And you don't learn anything, maybe.
00:21:57
Speaker
where Shakespeare akin to Zelda is something with a clear beginning and end, something that enriches you, maybe teaches you something about yourself and engages you, engages you with some obvious challenge. So in a weird way, they're really, really hard to compare in that regard. and But I would say I would let my child play Zelda almost from any age, the moment they could finish it. I might not ever let my child ever play Fortnite.
00:22:25
Speaker
Roblox and Minecraft are harder comparisons even still, and that's mainly because they're obviously open environments. So in solar plan, solar plan mode, Minecraft, obviously, I think up there with Zelda in terms of how it can foster creativity and learning. But I'd be very, very cautious about Roblox in terms of its net benefit to anyone's life, to be honest with you, let alone a child's. Okay.
00:22:53
Speaker
So moving on, we've actually got our first question from a parent. Isn't that exciting? I love that, honestly. It it makes it all all the more real, and I'm really excited for this. What's the question,
Managing Children's Gaming Time
00:23:06
Speaker
Andrew? So Rachel from Bournemouth in the United Kingdom, which is where we're from, asks, we bought our six-year-old son a PlayStation for Christmas. How long should we let him play a day?
00:23:17
Speaker
I have to start off with a toughie, eh, Andrew? Never a linear one with with video games. I think it's one of the reasons why the space is confusing. But with time is always such a tough one. So if you think of how oh how much time should I let my son read?
00:23:34
Speaker
you know, well, if they're reading Shakespeare, it's fantastic. If they're reading Hello magazine, it's a whole different kettle of fish. And I think the the the good catch all answer here is whether or not that kind of form of entertainment or learning is impacting on other elements of life's responsibilities, or you're starting to ah ah struggle to regulate that behavior.
00:23:59
Speaker
We are called the dopamine slot slot machine dopamine slot machine podcast for a reason. So there's a reason why you have that kind of famous gambling phrase in the UK, which is quit when you're not having fun. And the real key here is how you regulate these behaviors and whether or not they're enriching your life.
00:24:19
Speaker
to To give a more straightforward, if far less comprehensive answer, for us, we find 45 minutes a day is plenty for our seven-year-old too to get immersed, to enjoy the game she's playing, but without it impacting other areas of her life, or indeed starting to impact her behavior. You'll find at this age that excessive game playing can impact behavior.
00:24:43
Speaker
We might expand that if there's a game we're playing together, which is a very different experience, um or if there's other circumstances like you know it's it's pouring and raining and we haven't been able to do anything for a while. That sort of thing we might extend it, but her switch automatically locks up after 45 minutes, and she can't play anymore.
00:25:07
Speaker
So even if she was to do, and Brandon, I don't know if you ever did this, but even if she was to do the classic sneaking the games console under your pillow, even if she would try to do that, it sort of limits itself in terms of the damage it can do. Oh, I love that approach, Andrew.
00:25:24
Speaker
And the the thing I love most about it is not maybe the restriction, but almost the flexibility of the restriction, where the moment is connected to that kind of real world connection, that time frame becomes a little bit more flexible. I think that's just such a really healthy way of engaging with these devices ah with the daughter of your age or her age.
Podcast Contact Information and Next Episode Teaser
00:25:43
Speaker
don't forget that if you've got some questions for us or if you or your children have been impacted by the issues we've discussed today, that you can get in touch with us on our website, the dopamineslotmachine.podcastpage.io, or find us on the Dopamine Slot Machine Discussion Corner Facebook group. All links can be found in our artist profile, and we would love to hear from you. Brandon, to wrap us up, what's your reading recommendation for this week?
00:26:08
Speaker
Actually, Andrew, I'm really glad you asked. I've put together a jargon buster. If you don't know your gacha games from your battle royales, here is the perfect place to start. The link is in the episode information. Thank you so much, Brandon. That's all we have time for today. Thank you so much for joining us. We'd love to have you here with us again in next week's episode, where we're going to be deep diving into Roblox, the most popular video game in the world.
00:26:33
Speaker
And please tune in. It's going to be a really, really fantastic episode. And I'm really, really I'm hoping that those in the audience have some really fantastic questions for us because ultimately, these environments are shifting. They're evolving and we have to evolve with them. ah ah So it's really will be a really fantastic opportunity to hear your pressing questions. I look forward to diving into that with you next week, Brandon.
00:27:00
Speaker
This has been the Dopamine slot machine. Thank you and see you soon.