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Mobiles, Tablets, Consoles, and Computers: How what you game on impacts your brain.
102 Plays1 month ago
In this week's episode, Andrew and Brandon investigate how your choice of gaming device can change how it effects your brain.
Andrew, a father of two and lifelong gamer, teams up with Brandon, a consumer psychologist and ex-pro video game coach, to cover video games, the way they are designed and how these design decisions impact the children that play them.
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Transcript
Introduction to Dopamine Slot Machine Podcast
00:00:08
Andrew Wilmot
Good morning, good day, good evening. Whenever you are, welcome to the Dopamine Slot Machine, the podcast that discusses what you need to know about the video games that your children are playing, how they're designed to get your kids hooked, and how do they make money from your children, and what you can do to make sure that your child's relationship with video games is a positive one.
00:00:26
Andrew Wilmot
My name is Andrew, I'm a dad of two and a lifelong gamer.
00:00:29
Bdizzle
And I'm Brandon, a consumer research psychologist and an ex-professional video game coach.
Gaming Platforms and Their Impact on Sleep
00:00:35
Andrew Wilmot
This week we're going to be talking about the what you play games on and how it impacts your brain. So the differences between playing on a mobile, between playing games on tablets, consoles, computers, because not all gaming platforms are created equal.
00:00:50
Andrew Wilmot
Just as we know that st that's sitting down on a laptop is a bit different to scrolling your phone in bed, the same applies to video games. And I think actually in bed is a very good place to start this off because I don't know about you, Brandon, but I've i've definitely over time varied between playing being primarily playing games on console, so sat on a sofa, to playing games sat at a desk, like sort of working environment.
00:01:16
Andrew Wilmot
But I've also had times where I've either had a laptop or played games on my phone where it's been predominantly in bed and, you know, even before we talk about what we know about sleep hygiene, I can tell you some of the negative impacts that had on me.
Understanding Sleep Hygiene
00:01:33
Bdizzle
Yeah, and it's it's just such a fantastic starting point when really thinking about the context of where we spend our time when it comes to entertainment and sleep hygiene for those at home. It's basically from this idea that if you want to have high quality sleep or you struggle with, let's say, sleep onset or total sleep time, one of the things that is standard practice in clinical treatment is to basically form a routine.
00:01:57
Bdizzle
And the reason why you do that is to basically build associations around bedtime, whether that's time, whether or not that you brush your teeth, get get into pyjamas, et cetera, et cetera. And it has really, really fantastic outputs.
00:02:10
Bdizzle
And the problem with the availability of these types of entertainment sources nowadays is that you can have access to them everywhere. So not clearly that will have an impact on sleep hygiene because you'll be staring at, let's say, a tablet rather than winding down to sleep.
00:02:26
Bdizzle
And it is interesting in a number of ways, but we'll probably explore that throughout throughout this entire podcast, really, where we're we're basically complex machines built off of associations. And we can associate different environments with different habits. But I'm sure we'll dig into that in greater detail, Andrew.
00:02:43
Andrew Wilmot
I mean, yeah, let's dig a bit more into
Parenting and Screen Time Contradictions
00:02:46
Andrew Wilmot
sleep still. So I definitely remember as a kid, I had a TV in my room. And since then, i think the prevailing discourse is just how, no, you absolutely cannot have a TV in a kid's room. It's terrible idea because of the association. And yet I'll then see the same parents that will say no to their kids ever having a TV in their room as this unthinkable a choice.
00:03:13
Andrew Wilmot
letting their children take tablets to bed and say, oh yeah, you can play games on your tablet for a bit before bed.
00:03:19
Bdizzle
Yeah, and it's it's exactly the same. it but Arguably, it's a lot worse because at least with certain forms of television, it's more passive. you're not kind of and You might not be kind of this kind of fire or thought or engagement where a lot of these video games, as we've discussed in previous episodes, are basically just competing for your attention.
00:03:39
Bdizzle
Very, very high engagement type platforms. So it's just as damaging, if not more damaging, to sleep hygiene than watching something as you go to sleep.
00:03:50
Bdizzle
ah that that That's 100%
The Limitations of Blue Light Filters
00:03:52
Bdizzle
certain. And one thing I would like to say here, that that transcends any like blue hue protectors that you put on your screen or settings. Ultimately, this is kind of a deeper cognitive issue. It's not just blue light on
00:04:06
Andrew Wilmot
So you're telling me I can't fix all the problems associated with holding a device that's programmed that there's running programs that are designed to get me hooked and designed to capture my attention four inches away from my face for hours before I go to sleep. You're telling me that just putting a blue light filter on that won't but magically fix the problem.
00:04:27
Bdizzle
Correct. like Admittedly, it is good. It it can be an effective, and let's say, part of an intervention. and But I know some people have views that it's more effective than it is. It's part of a broader picture. And at the end of the day, if you're using that bedroom environment for things that aren't strictly to do with sleep, there will be negative repercussions.
00:04:47
Bdizzle
And this is very, very airtight when it comes to academic literature and clinical practices around what makes good sleeping routines. And that accounts for any ages.
00:04:56
Andrew Wilmot
So, I mean, speaking of speaking of its impact on sleep, you know how much sleep kids need?
Sleep Needs Across Age Groups
00:05:03
Bdizzle
Oh, you're digging. That's a horrible question. Is Andrew trying to catch me out from my days as a sleep researcher? And the reason why it's a tough question is because even my my specialty in this period of time in my life was more between like late adolescence.
00:05:19
Bdizzle
And the problem there is it varies. And it varies between different stages. So teenagers, you have this stereotype of teenagers needing more sleep. And that's because they do need more sleep. They're not just lazy.
00:05:30
Bdizzle
They do need longer total sleep time than, let's say, if you're 50 plus, where your total sleep time goes down. i'd be I feel like we'll be here for 20 minutes if we broke down year by year.
00:05:41
Bdizzle
So I'm afraid i can't give you that on top of my head. That that that would be one for Google, unfortunately.
00:05:47
Andrew Wilmot
So I have actually got it open here.
00:05:50
Bdizzle
ah ah oh i saved by the bell Andrew thank you at least we we were intellectually honest on this podcast
00:05:50
Andrew Wilmot
Here's one I made earlier. so
00:05:57
Andrew Wilmot
So, and and I know this is a super broad age range, but they'll say school-aged children recommended between nine and 12 hours. So nine hours sleep, you know, that's, let let's say if if you're getting up at half past six, then that means really they they should be asleep.
00:06:17
Andrew Wilmot
by like half nine, right? Let alone the the time to wind down. But you'd be, and that that's on the lower end, but you'd be amazed how many kids I hear about their parents finding them staying up till 10, gone 10, playing video games.
00:06:35
Andrew Wilmot
And I don't think the long-term impact of that sleep deprivation its impact on development, its impact on your ability to learn at school, its impact on your emotional state.
00:06:49
Andrew Wilmot
You know, you you don't need to be a sleep researcher to know that long-term chronic sleep deprivation makes you a little bit stupid.
00:07:00
Bdizzle
Yeah, well that
00:07:01
Andrew Wilmot
Makes you feel stupid, I should say. And I'm speaking from experience there.
00:07:05
Bdizzle
well,
The Evolutionary Role of Sleep
00:07:06
Bdizzle
the issue with sleep, and there's a fantastic book by Dr. Matthew Walker called Why Do We Sleep? and one of the points he makes in this book that's really well established is he really lays out just how foundational sleep is as an evolved mechanism right so what what we're experiencing in research is not asking the question of what what sleeps it's more of what doesn't sleep there's evidence that and we keep going further and further down the line right oh fish don't sleep okay they have uni hemispheric sleep they do sleep and as it's evolved or progressed.
00:07:38
Bdizzle
We've even got approaches and theories that we think that certain types of bacteria sleep. So there's very real argument that when life began, so did this kind of mechanism of sleep because it's so foundational to just biological processes. And that's reflected in basically any piece of sleep research. If you put the word sleep and then an ailment next to it into Google, you'll probably encounter a variety of researcher research linking the two together.
00:08:06
Bdizzle
And I think that when we're we're watching mass disruption of sleeping behaviors in a way that we've probably never seen before, you know, as a as a species, as humans, it does worry me for the future and will inevitably be linked to a variety of negative repercussions.
Improving Sleep Hygiene with Gaming Spaces
00:08:25
Andrew Wilmot
So to bring back this section to the hardware, mobiles and tablets, you can have them in bed and that's pretty much, I'm going to put words in your mouth there, but that's going to be the worst way that you can have gaming interacting with sleep to have that device so close to your face and literally whilst you're in your bed.
00:08:44
Andrew Wilmot
What about consoles? Having a console in your room, a TV in your room with it, is is that is that the worst thing?
00:08:50
Bdizzle
Well, it's it's it's about availability, right? So the problem with a mobile phone is that you can use it right until you go to bed. It's always in your pocket. so you can really ingratiate those kind of it being integrated into every single part of your life. You're constantly checking your phone.
00:09:06
Bdizzle
Whereas with a console, because it's stationary, you can't take it to the bathroom with you, right? and there there's there's a bigger degree of separation there, so it has its advantages. Ideally, you just have a separate room, but we don't live in an idealistic world either.
00:09:21
Bdizzle
So I think with consoles, they are better because they have that lack of kind of immediate accessibility and their downsides can be managed by just really effective management.
00:09:30
Bdizzle
You know, you have consistent rules, no no video games before eight, nine o'clock at night, just to really, really preserve a kind of winding down time for other activities that do improve in this in the context of this sleeping behaviors.
00:09:43
Bdizzle
So reading is a great one, in particular fiction for producing good sleep outcomes, just as an example.
00:09:49
Andrew Wilmot
Okay. I don't know about you, but I definitely, as a kid, did the sneaking up at night to to play my Game Boy, putting it under the pillow with the volume off. So even with pre-addictive design being built into video games, that was that was the thing that I experienced.
00:10:05
Andrew Wilmot
So I don't know i don't know what sort of compulsions kids feel now.
00:10:06
Bdizzle
Yes, i i also i also had that experience, and that was in more immature days. you know you you back Back then, when we think of these games devices, you didn't have very, very large teams of people hyperparameter tuning this for prolonged period prolonged a gameplay engagement, right?
00:10:29
Bdizzle
So, yeah, I can't, well, it's it's going to be a grim future and inevitably I'll be sat when I'm, you know, 50 reading the literature around it.
00:10:39
Bdizzle
and But it it does make me, it makes me pessimistic because there doesn't seem to be, I presume there'd be more visibility around these issues, to be honest with you, Andrew.
00:10:51
Andrew Wilmot
It's coming, you know, it's coming between smartphone free childhood, which has moved to the UK, we've mentioned a couple of times here, to political initiatives across the world. I do think the pendulum's swinging a little bit.
00:11:02
Andrew Wilmot
But finally, and and actually this is this is pertinent here, an idea that I've seen starting to get some traction is the return of the family computer. So...
00:11:12
Andrew Wilmot
the value in having a computer in a shared space to do all the things that you do on a computer. So you've got that messaging. Hey, maybe even let the kid let your kid play Roblox on there.
00:11:24
Andrew Wilmot
It's it's is's then very different to being in a public environment, which is perhaps not completely supervised, but semi-supervised and... Okay, it didn't stop me getting up at night to sneak down to the family computer to play video games.
00:11:38
Andrew Wilmot
But as you said earlier with the but the console, it gives that separation. What do you think about the return of the family computer?
Family Computer for Healthier Gaming Habits
00:11:47
Bdizzle
Well, I think it's it's potentially a fantastic idea because it not only enables kind of effective engagement in terms of, you know, setting healthy boundaries, these types of things, but it also means that it's a great avenue to be part of that conversation, you know, to celebrate wins and losses, to yeah take part in these types of media forms yourself. Yeah, I think it's a fantastic idea. And it's these types of initiatives and and that that makes me a bit more optimistic about the future.
00:12:17
Andrew Wilmot
Okay, so so moving on, I've got here some notes about push notifications and behavioral modification.
Addictive Design of Mobile Games
00:12:24
Andrew Wilmot
But have have you ever played got it really into a mobile game, whether it's like your Clash of Clans or or something a bit more benign?
00:12:32
Bdizzle
So I was always like a massively competitive kind of video gamer, right? So if it's not competitive, I wasn't really interested, but I did.
00:12:41
Bdizzle
i was part of the nostalgia wave of Pokemon Go and good times, people running around the park. Amazing. it was great watching that the news. And maybe the occasional card game, you know, so Hearthstone,
00:12:55
Bdizzle
these types of things I've dabbled in. So, yeah, I have i have been somewhat familiarized with that ecosphere personally.
00:13:03
Andrew Wilmot
i I had a chess phase recently. And again, fairly benign, but getting the push notifications to do your daily chess puzzles, to have you played a game today, keep up your streak.
00:13:14
Andrew Wilmot
Streak's a really interesting thing to talk about. And was reflecting on this. And again, the same thing's got to apply. If you've sort of put these on a spectrum where you've got mobiles on one end, where it's already in your pocket all the time and it can send a vibration. A push notification is is is that notification that comes up, makes your phone vibrate, sends a message to the top the screen, it gets your attention.
00:13:35
Andrew Wilmot
So on one end, you've got mobile phones because they're with you all the time. If you're like me and you need it for work as well, you you cannot separate. And then you've got the sort family computer model on the other end. Then for me, mobile gaming then becomes this really dangerous space if they're using things like push notifications because...
00:13:54
Andrew Wilmot
even with what I know, it's, I know that push notifications are designed to be addictive.
00:14:00
Bdizzle
Correct. And I feel like that's the most important thing when evaluating like these mechanisms. So instead of looking at push notifications like they're random events, you know what they're doing is they're collecting all this data around your habits, how people engage with that platform.
00:14:15
Bdizzle
And then they're looking to highlight the most optimal time period to try to engage you, to try to hook you. and And if that means you fall into, let's say, a particular segment of their audience and they know people that are restless sleepers, or they might not know that this is what's causing it, but in reality, it's what's causing it. People are already kind of restless sleepers.
00:14:35
Bdizzle
They'll sneak in a push notification. Hey, like just just play this for an hour. And it's great for them because their numbers go up, and but it's terrible for the individual the individual because now they've got impaired sleep.
00:14:46
Bdizzle
And now they're used to having impaired sleep and their impulse control is limited in some way. And you can see how very, very quickly that something that starts off as a well-placed push notification because of some metrics on a dashboard turns into the potential for having negative sleeping repercussions.
00:15:03
Andrew Wilmot
And of course, again, going back to that spectrum, tablets have that as well. You're not necessarily carrying a tablet around with you all the time, although I'm sure that some of the kids that I've seen in public recently do their best efforts to do so.
00:15:17
Andrew Wilmot
And i can imagine I can imagine with those sorts of games, kids perhaps being given a tablet to watch a show, they get a notification for a type of game and they get caught in the loop that way.
00:15:29
Bdizzle
Yes, correct. And the more, you know, the more we talk, Andrew, the more we do this podcast, I feel like a lot of roads lead to that one sentence, right? a Smartphone free childhood could be a really good idea. It could be a really fantastic idea.
00:15:43
Andrew Wilmot
I'm fully on board already, just from just from my own experiences and my own career as well. But yeah, and and then consoles and family computers as well.
00:15:54
Andrew Wilmot
Like, that's just not a problem, that sort push notification. Now, although the games themselves might have some of this addictive design that is is problematic, your your computer, I mean, actually computers are starting to get push notifications. I don't know if you've noticed that they're building them in, but your computer is not going to follow you around the same way.
00:16:15
Bdizzle
Whereas it's not going to follow you around and you don't have to passively think about the damn thing. Right. So my my favorite example of this is now imagine Facebook Messenger or Facebook was on your PC and not your phone.
00:16:20
Andrew Wilmot
Thanks.
00:16:28
Bdizzle
imagine how drastically different your usage habits will be. It'll turn into something that might be a pivotal moment in your, like it were almost hour to hour engagement or usage of your time.
00:16:40
Bdizzle
And it will turn into this thing that you can kind of take it or leave that you check maybe once every couple of days, 15 minutes maybe, you know? And I think that's a really good kind of Rosetta Stone touch point for imagining things.
00:16:52
Bdizzle
the difference in terms of the way context in terms of people as users engage with these platforms.
00:16:58
Andrew Wilmot
And a lot of the games that we've talked about are multi-platform. Minecraft, you can play on your phone, tablet, console, computer. Roblox, the same. Fortnite, the same. There are loads these games across platform. And I suppose if there's going to be one takeaway here, the the further I guess the further you can get along to that, here is the set and setting in which you play video games and it's only for video games. That's whether it's a console in a living room or on a family computer, the closer you can get to that as opposed to you are in bed, your phone, the the game pings you and you get it out to check it just before you go to sleep.
00:17:39
Andrew Wilmot
The further you can get away from that, the better.
00:17:41
Bdizzle
Yeah, correct. And also it limits total time investment, right? So you you free up availability for other things and other interests because you're not completely ingratiated into this habit of this is what you do for fun when you're not at school, you know, and which means that the likelihood of someone...
00:18:01
Bdizzle
yeah Being open to other other activities, sports, exercise, reading, etc, etc, it will likely go up because you don't have this all-consuming kind of dopamine black hole constantly available to you.
Balancing Gaming with Other Activities
00:18:19
Andrew Wilmot
ah ah sir That's a really good thing to move on to a question I've got, actually. I don't know if you've seen this question yet, but this one is from Jay, who says, I'm a mother of two teenage boys, 15 and 13, and both of whom love video games.
00:18:33
Andrew Wilmot
But her youngest has started showing much less interest in other extracurricular activities, such as football, music, and mostly just seems interested in the PlayStation. how How do I know if this is a problem or just a normal teenage phase?
00:18:50
Andrew Wilmot
i mean, I think I did similar at 13, to be fair.
00:18:53
Bdizzle
Yeah, me too. And looking back, and this is a really interesting question, because I feel like, and this is one for you before I guess I chip in on that one. With the way video games have changed, and even with that contextualizing, I guess what going ask, do you think that was good for you? Because looking back, I really don't think it was.
00:19:12
Bdizzle
you know that I think that although I enjoyed kind of doing something that was mastery-driven constantly, I did it. It definitely didn't make me happy. I wasn't a joyous kid, you know, or young man.
00:19:24
Bdizzle
ah ah what What was your experience like, Andrew?
00:19:27
Andrew Wilmot
I think my obsession with video games was much more an obsession with distraction than it was with mastery. I don't think there was a positive element to it the same way. And actually that enjoyment of video games as an art form now, actually, is something that only really appeared later in life.
00:19:45
Andrew Wilmot
So, and it's worth reminding everybody that this isn't necessarily a parenting podcast so much as it is an addictive design one. It's, you know, that's a bit of an odd intersection, but I don't have teenagers.
00:19:58
Andrew Wilmot
I have all of that to look forward to. look forward to And so I can't give practical advice on te on parenting teenagers, but then again, I know very few people who would dare to, even those who have had teenagers.
00:20:03
Bdizzle
well
00:20:13
Bdizzle
Yeah, well, I said i said in a sentence that I thought was a genius at the time. I thought it was quite funny because I do really believe it, which is like, don't study a psychology degree, become a parent instead. is ma It's such a complex topic innately.
00:20:29
Bdizzle
but i guess we can take a crack at the cre question with that in mind. And I really do, well, this is the thing. So if you look at, especially, and this is obviously two boys, but if you look at women who engage in a high level of sport from a an early age, and then you look at their career path, it's like night and day, right? So that, you know, their CEOs, their salary goes up, et cetera, et cetera. And the same thing with men, but in particular with women, it's more severe.
00:20:54
Bdizzle
So when you look at these kind of extracurricular activities, they do have really, really positive outcomes. Do video games have the same level of positive outcomes? And it's spurious area of research.
00:21:07
Bdizzle
and There's very, very clear bad and there's very, very clear good. And I think in that area of ambiguity, just making sure it's relatively balanced is like the key the key thing here.
00:21:18
Bdizzle
is yeah If you only play video games, it's not good. you know In the same way where if you become hyper obsessive over sport in a negative way at young age, it's also not good. And all roads lead to this kind of healthy balance of engagement, I think. And that's kind of my knee jerk.
00:21:35
Bdizzle
But again, super excited to hear maybe what some some people out there have to say. So please get in contact. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
00:21:44
Andrew Wilmot
Yes, absolutely.
Evaluating Gaming's Effects on Mood and Behavior
00:21:45
Andrew Wilmot
And yeah you can get in contact with us on our website or you can get in contact with us on the Dopamine Slot Machine Discussion Corner Facebook group.
00:21:54
Andrew Wilmot
For me, I think I would be looking to see how they are after a gaming session. If they come away from it similar to how you might coming away from seeing a good film in the cinema, then you know what?
00:22:05
Andrew Wilmot
I don't think I'd worry. But if they're going into it in a bad mood and they're coming out of it in a bad mood, then... I'll be questioning whether it's positive or not, but that's from a that's only from a position of somebody who has previously been video game addicted teenager.
00:22:21
Andrew Wilmot
right, well, thank you, Brandon. That is all we have time for today. Thank you so much, everybody, for joining us. would love to have you here with us again in next week's episode, where we're going to be dropping into our own personal tilted towers and covering Fortnite.
00:22:36
Andrew Wilmot
You might not have got that reference, but your kids probably would. This has been but Dopamine Slot Machine. Thank you and see you soon.