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EdTech: Teaching Kids, or Training Users?
95 Plays17 days ago
Andrew, a father of two and lifelong gamer, teams up with Brandon, a consumer psychologist and ex-pro video game coach, to cover video games, the way they are designed and how these design decisions impact the children that play them.
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Transcript
Intro
Introductions and Podcast Purpose
00:00:11
Andrew Wilmot
Good morning, good day, good evening. Whenever you are, or welcome to the Dopamine Slot Machine, the podcast that discusses what you need to know about the video games that your children are playing. How are they designed to get your kids hooked?
00:00:23
Andrew Wilmot
How to make money from your children? What can you do to make sure that your child's relationship with video games is a positive one?
Main Topic: The Role of EdTech
00:00:30
Andrew Wilmot
My name is Andrew. I'm a dad of two and a lifelong gamer.
00:00:33
Bdizzle
And I'm Brandon, consumer research psychologist and an ex-professional video game coach.
00:00:38
Andrew Wilmot
Today we're covering ed tech education tech and to warn you, this is probably going to be a bit of a long one. Now, this might sound like a little bit of a divergence away from video games, but if you go and open up any of the popular EdTech platforms, SpellingShare, Timestable Rockstars, Sparks, MyMath is myma still about. That was one I used as a kid.
00:01:01
Andrew Wilmot
You will see gamification. You will see addictive design elements being used. And so there is a huge overlap with what we've previously talked on this channel.
00:01:06
Bdizzle
you
00:01:10
Andrew Wilmot
And this is a topic that we've been asked about.
Teachers' Challenges and EdTech's Role
00:01:13
Andrew Wilmot
So let's let's dive in. So i actually first want to take a stock of why teachers want to EdTech or use EdTech and really making it clear that we're not here to criticise schools and teachers on this one.
00:01:33
Andrew Wilmot
Teachers massively overstretched. i'm i'm I've never worked in teaching myself, but I've got friends and family members who do at different levels within teaching.
00:01:43
Andrew Wilmot
And by all accounts, right now, particularly since COVID, it is a nightmare. Overstretched apartments.
00:01:50
Bdizzle
yeah
00:01:51
Andrew Wilmot
Sorry.
00:01:52
Bdizzle
Yeah, yeah, no, Andrew, I i was just going to say, I've got a few friends that are in teaching and that's exactly their sentiment.
00:01:52
Andrew Wilmot
Sorry, Brandon.
00:01:58
Bdizzle
It just seems to be just getting progressively worse. And that seems to be, I think a friend of mine had a quote from a colleague that they work with who's been a teacher for a very long time, which is that in the last 10 years, it's just become like too two, three times harder to be a teacher in a lot of ways, which is just wild to think about.
00:02:16
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I mean, overstretched apartments, a sort of collapse in SEN funding, i and a rise in the number of kids who would need that SEN support
Effectiveness of EdTech Platforms
00:02:26
Andrew Wilmot
as well.
00:02:27
Andrew Wilmot
So anything that shifts some of the workload off of teachers, I can see why they would be keen on it. And when you look at the way a lot of edtech platforms are marketed to teachers, it's along the lines of automatic marking, being able to keep make it really clear where students are at in terms their learning journeys, really taking a lot of the work out of teaching. So, really allowing you to focus on just the teaching elements of it, rather than the spending endless evenings marking worksheets and things like that.
00:03:05
Andrew Wilmot
So, you know, we are going to be quite critical in in some ways about EdTech here. The criticism is not on teachers.
00:03:13
Andrew Wilmot
But what we've found quite interesting is EdTech in the UK, it has explicit government backing, right? So there's endless consultations looking to quite explicitly remove barriers to EdTech use.
00:03:29
Andrew Wilmot
The most recent one published by the UK government, what I found interesting is the highest barrier that teachers were reporting, that educational professionals were reporting, and about 50% of them reporting it, was a lack of any evidence for success of these for these platforms.
Personal Experiences with EdTech
00:03:47
Andrew Wilmot
A lack of proof that they work or have positive outcomes. ah But, that Brandon, have you used, i either think back at school or think to, i mean, do you use Duolingo?
00:04:00
Andrew Wilmot
Have you used Duolingo?
00:04:01
Bdizzle
So i've I've never used Duolingo myself, but as for, I guess for preparation for this podcast, I did do a little bit of reading on the Rockstars kind of time Times Table app.
00:04:13
Bdizzle
And I've got a massive soft spot for it. And I guess on a personal note for me, I actually struggled quite a lot in my primary school years. So if you've got a son or a daughter who's struggling quite a lot, like it it they can turn they can turn it around. I know I eventually did and obviously ended up being an academic.
00:04:31
Bdizzle
and But I really struggle with maths. I got moved down a year at one point. so So, you know, mechanisms and innovation in this space is kind of close to my heart through that. And the reason why I've got a soft spot for it is because things like Jilingo, gamification, it does work. The more time you spend doing stuff,
00:04:49
Bdizzle
the better you get at it. And that's the premise of Jolingo. And that's why they very, very aggressive in their engagement, their note push notifications, their streaks. And what these ad platforms, edtech platforms are, are almost an extension of that.
00:05:03
Bdizzle
They are just these highly, I guess, almost like commercialized environments in a way, because they think like like a social media platform, trying to get as much of your attention as possible.
00:05:12
Bdizzle
But instead of mindlessly scrolling through you your phone, having that potential benefit of, in the case of Jilingo, learning a language, or in the case of the times tables or mathematics, getting better at a particular piece of academic an academic skill.
Concerns About Broader Impacts
00:05:29
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. And with the reading that we've been doing around this and the of concerns we've got, the concern isn't, will it actually directly help you with, you know, we'll do times table rock stars, help you learn your times tables. Absolutely it will. I'm sure that it's incredibly effective at that specific use case.
00:05:48
Andrew Wilmot
And same with Duolingo. Duolingo is not so popular because it doesn't work or it's just, it's only addictive. No, Duolingo works.
00:06:01
Andrew Wilmot
Duolingo works pretty well and works pretty well for millions of people. I suppose where we start to get concerned, where my concern as a parent and Brandon, I hope you don't mind me speaking for you here, but your concern from a psychologist perspective is what are the other implications of this?
00:06:12
Bdizzle
it won't.
00:06:19
Andrew Wilmot
it's it i mean,
00:06:20
Bdizzle
And where's our money going? Where is government money going to kind of deepen our understanding, and improve curriculums and education materials?
00:06:30
Bdizzle
I know that's a soft spot for me. Sorry for interjecting, Andrew. you got yeah I'm a researcher representing. there's's Let's put more money into high impact research that solves the damn problem. Sorry, Andrew, I'll pass it back to you.
00:06:41
Andrew Wilmot
Oh, there's loads of money in EdTech. It's just all in the people selling the software.
00:06:47
Bdizzle
Yeah, because we're selling the software and it's the wrong type of software. I don't know why there's not broader concerns for this, but I'm sure we'll dig into why. i can understand it existing, but the moment you start saying things like government backed, Andrew, I can i can feel my skin crawl crawl a little bit because I almost guarantee you and maybe safer, longer term solutions probably aren't receiving the same funding.
00:07:12
Andrew Wilmot
Have you heard about the Apple Distinguished Schools Program?
00:07:15
Bdizzle
You mentioned it to me briefly, Andrew, but I guess it's and learning opportunity for me that in terms of this section. Could you describe it for me?
00:07:23
Andrew Wilmot
So basically it's a certification that a school can get from Apple for basically using their products in their education system.
00:07:35
Andrew Wilmot
And A listener actually put me onto this and was saying, why does Apple do this program? My first thought is, well, you know, obviously it's some sort of pipeline to get them, get the schools using Apple products. So the kids are familiar with them and it breaks down that barrier of using Apple products, you know, like,
00:07:54
Andrew Wilmot
I've heard good things about Macs. I probably would never buy one simply because the few times I've used it, it's been unfamiliar and I've absolutely hated it. But if you break down that barrier by getting kids using them in schools, then you've made it easier to then sell to those same kids in the future. And same with schools using iPads, et cetera, et cetera.
00:08:15
Andrew Wilmot
And so was wondering, what's what's the school's motivation here? Is there a kickback? Do they get a discount? But there's no specific discount associated with this program. Apple does their own set of discounts for educational organizations, primarily schools, right?
00:08:32
Andrew Wilmot
But you don't get extra discounts for participating in this program.
00:08:38
Bdizzle
Interesting.
00:08:38
Andrew Wilmot
And then...
00:08:38
Bdizzle
so So what you're saying, Andrew, is that it's open season for like early exposure to technical products at a very charmed point in
Tech Companies in Schools: Pros and Cons?
00:08:48
Bdizzle
people's lives.
00:08:48
Bdizzle
You build really positive and emotional relationships with going to school and Y, and z you know You might have good memories sitting with your best friend growing up, doing your times tables on a MacBook rather than a PCC by a MacBook.
00:09:00
Bdizzle
And it's just open season and Apple are very aware of this. And schools are like, yeah, brilliant. well well we'll We'll give you money for the privilege. Is that what he's telling me, Andrew?
00:09:12
Andrew Wilmot
But more than that, they've Apple seem to have turned it into a real thing of status. So you look at some of the schools that have it. I'm i'm reading one now from Langley Grammar School in Slough.
00:09:25
Andrew Wilmot
So Langley Grammar School has been designated as an Apple Distinguished School since 2017. And I am just reading this verbatim from the website here, the Langley Grammar School website.
00:09:37
Andrew Wilmot
Apple distinguished schools are centres of innovation, leadership and educational excellence that use Apple products to inspire creativity, collaboration and critical thinking. They showcase innovative uses of technology in learning, teaching and the school environment and have documented results of academic accomplishment.
00:09:54
Andrew Wilmot
The Apple Distinguished School Programme is by invitation only for schools that meet the current programme qualifications. Recognition is for three years the opportunity to renew during each invitation period.
00:10:06
Andrew Wilmot
part of the They then talk a little bit about the accreditation process and there's a book detailing it. but So the schools are...
00:10:16
Andrew Wilmot
It seems that they mostly get to boast about being an Apple Distinguished School with some sort of status thing. But I'm looking at that, I'm just thinking, what, so you use iPads in lessons?
00:10:28
Bdizzle
Yeah, and it's just just a bit dystopian, isn't it? Yeah, my kid's school's TikTok certified. Like you like a a massive conglomerate that is making money off of attention and attention and a variety of means. that I think it's a net good for society. I really do. Innovation, et cetera, et cetera.
00:10:48
Bdizzle
But the moment you start integrating that into like the public good, i just I don't see a world where... where that's got a good end point personally. And then I'm very normally for these things.
00:10:59
Andrew Wilmot
yeah
00:11:00
Bdizzle
It's just, there's something to just on paper this dystopian about it. And maybe I'm speaking emotionally, but it's almost like you told me that, you know, if you said that someone 20, 30 years ago, would that have been a parody?
00:11:13
Bdizzle
Maybe, I don't know.
00:11:16
Andrew Wilmot
i'm I'm still not convinced it's it's not all parody now, that this isn't in some sort of big joke being played on me. But we sort of meandered off a bit here. I suppose the point I wanted to get to with this is mega tech companies are already in our schools, already working with our schools, very much on the assumption that increased tech use is good.
00:11:41
Andrew Wilmot
Sorry, the tech companies aren't making this assumption. They are relying on our societal and social governmental assumption that increased tech use is good.
00:11:53
Andrew Wilmot
There was actually something really interesting I was reading before we move on from this topic.
OECD Report: Tech Use in Education
00:11:56
Andrew Wilmot
And it was the, so it was OECD 2015 Students, Computer and Learning report.
00:12:04
Andrew Wilmot
It's absolutely huge, this report. But one of the things that it goes into is the relationship between computer use as an amount of time and educational outcomes.
00:12:18
Andrew Wilmot
And could be easy to assume even for us that this would be a fairly, maybe not a straight line, but you know always going to be positively correlated, even if towards one end of the scale, that's going to be somewhat related to more having correlations with wealth.
00:12:37
Andrew Wilmot
Wealthier country is more likely to make more use of tech in the classroom. but actually you're suggesting a hill shape right so you see some initial improvement by using by investing in ict for education so in countries where it is less common for students to use the internet at school for school work students performance in reading improved more rapidly than in countries where such use is more common on average however this dropped off quite quickly it got past a certain point so
00:13:09
Andrew Wilmot
Levels of computer use above the current OECD average are associated with significantly poorer results. So once you get to a certain point, more computer use actively hurts your educational outcomes.
00:13:24
Andrew Wilmot
So we've got this assumption, more tech use in schools, great. I don't think it's true. I don't think the evidence that we've got suggests it's true. And that's before getting into the nuances of the different types of tech use in school.
Psychological Effects of Gamification
00:13:39
Bdizzle
Yeah, 100% Andrew. And maybe I'm i'm a bit more, you know, i always speak as a scientist. So if I see a study and it doesn't have a really fantastic multivariate approach where it really trims down how complex these areas are, I start getting hesitant.
00:13:55
Bdizzle
But I think the the fact that I'm asking that question in application to this study, and what I mean by that is Are they controlling for the exact population that they're looking at, their base skill achievement, whether or not they've got certain underlying special needs, etc, etc.
00:14:10
Bdizzle
And if you don't, you can get skew-if results sometimes, right? Or you might not properly understand the relationship between stuff. But that's kind of standard practice in a lot of areas of the social sciences, if you want to basically do a piece of research that's worth doing, especially on in complex areas.
00:14:27
Bdizzle
And the fact that I have to ask that question, I think distills what kind of makes me innately uncomfortable is that there's like almost an assumption that these technologies work, massive widespread adoption.
00:14:39
Bdizzle
And the assumption is is that it's watertight that, one, these platforms work in our current kind of socioeconomic where the world is. And two, and this is the big thing for me, these platforms are safe. you know And I'm sure, which is a wild thing to say when you you start putting it in the context of Apple-certified schools, but maybe someone should have asked the question, is this potentially safe?
00:15:03
Bdizzle
So let me give you an example. Andrew, I'm sorry, I'm i'm on one now, right? Let me give you a really, really example.
00:15:07
Andrew Wilmot
Go on, go on. I'm enjoying this. And if I'm enjoying this, I'm hoping our listeners do as well.
00:15:12
Bdizzle
So one of the dangers around, like you take something really benign, like your smartwatch has a step count, right? And a huge portion of the population will use that as a positive, healthy tool, right? You wake up in the morning, like, oh, I hit my 10,000 steps, or I'm going to hit my 10,000 steps.
00:15:27
Bdizzle
You do a little bit of healthy exercise. Yeah.
00:15:29
Andrew Wilmot
I was going to say, if you if you wake up in the morning and you're already like, oh, wow, I've hit 10,000 steps already, then, you know, that's some serious sleepwalking.
00:15:35
Bdizzle
yeah Yeah, you've had a busy sleepwalk, walking session, you're very proud of use yourself. You get what mean, my apologies. you have a segment of the population where that's a healthy, good thing for them.
00:15:48
Bdizzle
You also have a segment of the population where it almost unlocks that preceptibility, right? Where you start getting obsessed with your step count, you feel bad when you don't get it, you open that gate, now you're calorie counting, and you can kind of snowball into really, really unhealthy kind of cognitive beliefs, right?
00:16:04
Bdizzle
And that happens over time. And There's an argument there, no matter how strong, that and if they didn't have access to that information in the first place, maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't have developed that problem.
00:16:17
Bdizzle
Hear me out, that's this generation, right? People that didn't grow up, constantly bombarded by exact numbers and gamification of how well they're doing. This kind of objectification, very precisely in a way that never happened previously, of where we are at at a particular time.
00:16:35
Bdizzle
And we don't really know the long-term effects of that. you know We don't know a long-term effects of almost being like matrixed in through the back of your head to some sort of hierarchy where you know where you sit with your classmates in this highly gamified environment. and what What concerns me is that these are the exact same mechanisms that are not just in, we we're not just talking about the mechanisms in EdTech here, we're talking about every video game that they touch, the mechanisms that are basically the backbone of all social media as well.
00:17:07
Bdizzle
So suddenly you're talking about an unbelievably long period of time, right, being exposed to these types of tools that companies use to keep your engagement.
00:17:18
Bdizzle
And what we know about psychology and addiction and habitual behaviors and, you know on the positive side of things, like positive habits and these types of things, is that once a circuit's there, it's hard to get rid of it. So if you speak to someone who's a lifelong gambling addict, you know, they're always going to be a gambling addict. It's why, same thing with alcohol alcoholics, and that's why they speak about it in the same way. In the same in the same strain, you speak to a runner who hasn't been on a run for three days and they just start feeling terrible.
00:17:47
Bdizzle
right So the question is, and the proposition is, should we be putting this EdTech platform with a variety of these features that you know there I think people are have valid concerns about, with no research on their overarching long-term safety, kind of a vague understanding that maybe long-term exposure to these things probably isn't good, and accepting it to the point where schools are being certified for it.
00:18:13
Bdizzle
It's just, for me personally, Andrew, almost something like like I'm part of a shared hallucination. you know i'm i'm I'm in that village with the dancing plague where everyone just decided to dance themselves to death. I don't know what to make of it.
00:18:26
Bdizzle
But that that's genuinely my trail of thought. There's something kind of jarring, dystopian, and uncomfortable about it for me, to be honest with you, Andrew.
Engagement and Gamification Strategies
00:18:32
Andrew Wilmot
So little bit of disclosure, I've been interested in edtech for a very long time. So my bachelor's project was actually an 11 plus tuition platform.
00:18:46
Andrew Wilmot
And it was a lot of fun to make. And i enjoyed making it. But even then, this would have been 2017, revealing my age there. Even then,
00:18:57
Andrew Wilmot
there was starting to be a little bit of concern about things like the infinite scroll on Facebook and, you know, some of these platforms are very addictive. But I remember studying this with UX perspective. It's like yeah, just make sure that you're integrating push notifications, make sure you're integrating sort of pop-up messages, make sure you're integrating all these to improve engagement, improve engagement.
00:19:22
Andrew Wilmot
And sort of core assumption is that, Studying is good. I don't think that's a controversial statement. Studying and practicing your schoolwork is a good thing.
00:19:35
Andrew Wilmot
Any disagreement there?
00:19:36
Bdizzle
No, not at all. obviously Obviously, with like extreme, you shouldn't be staying up to 12 o'clock drenched in sweat because you're scared of failing a mock exam. It's going to be better.
00:19:46
Andrew Wilmot
I just love geography!
00:19:49
Bdizzle
yeah But no, I completely agree. And education is obviously associated with basically any good outcome you'd ever want, right?
00:19:57
Andrew Wilmot
yeah So so studying studying is good. that That's that an uncontroversial statement. The next assumption is that if you can improve engagement in studying, that will also inherently be good because you're improving engagement of a good thing.
00:20:13
Bdizzle
Yeah, which is.
00:20:13
Andrew Wilmot
So just go hog wild with every single possible way to improve that engagement.
00:20:18
Bdizzle
Go off the deep end. What can go wrong?
00:20:23
Andrew Wilmot
Yes, let's use gamification. i Like, Time's Table Rockstars, right? And I know you said you've got a
00:20:29
Andrew Wilmot
you got a soft spot for it. But for me, like, with with my daughter doing her Time's Tables on it, I'm like, ding, ding, ding. And then the the jingles for awards and get yourself a cool outfit with it.
00:20:43
Andrew Wilmot
And we've literally had arguments about... You know, you have to actually do the questions rather than focusing on dressing up your character.
00:20:52
Bdizzle
Yeah, it's it's always that line of best fit, right? And again, it's it's just the wider context that it sits in kind of compounds my innate anxiety for it.
00:21:03
Andrew Wilmot
And then there's the fact that EdTech puts kids on devices that are already addictive.
Distractions from Addictive Devices
00:21:09
Andrew Wilmot
So, I remember doing my maths was what I had at school, which I think is still about.
00:21:14
Andrew Wilmot
I did look it up. And that would be at my home desktop, either in a family room or in a bedroom. And it would be within a single browser window. And And that was it.
00:21:51
Andrew Wilmot
But you hear about but I don't think that's going to be the norm. I think I'm probably fairly on the extreme end of concern in this area. But if you're just giving kids, oh, just do it on my phone.
00:22:03
Andrew Wilmot
And then halfway through, they get a message notification. Or just do it on the same tablet that we give you for four hours a day to sit playing Roblox on. Uh, It's a very weird mixing up of contexts here.
00:22:18
Andrew Wilmot
It's hard to blame kids for finding it easy to get distracted whilst doing it. And it's hard to blame kids for then and there being side effects to increasing the amount of time they're spending on a device they're already addicted to.
Future Generations and Digital Resilience
00:22:31
Bdizzle
Yeah, correct. I always frame it as someone who works from home. We might have listeners that work from home. try Try working on your home computer once where you've got Facebook at one click away or whatever your vice is, and you'll find that you'll you'll drift.
00:22:46
Bdizzle
Oh, there's an email that you want to procrastinate a little bit. And if we can't do it as, you know, our prefrontal cortexes or the front of our brain that does complex decision making is very, very well formed and it's battle hardened for self-discipline, you know, you might have 20 years work experience where you have to be very, very focused and still you'll find yourself drift to Facebook or Instagram or something, right?
00:23:10
Bdizzle
So it poses really unique challenges, but potentially advantages, potentially. I'm going to quickly jump on the hope train a little bit.
00:23:18
Andrew Wilmot
Ooh, let's have some hope.
00:23:21
Bdizzle
ah yeah Well, well the that the hope is maybe, so maybe we're like, a we we always talk down to further generations almost, are like, oh, you don't know how to use a map or whatever.
00:23:33
Bdizzle
but maybe this is something they've got on us, right? Maybe they're so deep into the frying pan of engagement, they can build a, they can become callous to it in a way that we just aren't, right? we We have no back, we might not have any backbone.
00:23:47
Bdizzle
Maybe our kids, went yeah, correct.
00:23:48
Andrew Wilmot
Inoculated.
00:23:50
Bdizzle
Maybe when our kids are 30, they're just so, they're so cynical and blind to these things. But like the whole marketplace of like digital apps changes and that that's genuinely maybe a possibility.
00:24:02
Andrew Wilmot
No, I think you want point here, right? Because we joke about, we and my family joke about my mother, sorry if listening to this, mum, being an iPad kid.
00:24:14
Andrew Wilmot
And, you know, perhaps because that older generation doesn't have it any of the inoculation, any of the resistance, they've definitely been, I see my my partner's parents, who definitely won't be listening to this, ah thought short form videos have a grip on them.
00:24:33
Bdizzle
vice grip. They're in trouble.
00:24:35
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. know they are They are the Native Americans having received the smallpox blankets.
00:24:36
Bdizzle
They're in deep waters. Yeah.
00:24:42
Bdizzle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no interesting. I'm trying to think as we kind of explore this of like what what is our what thing, right, is our generation and inoculated by?
00:24:53
Bdizzle
And I would argue and hear me out, banner ads. So like, you know, like Facebook advertising things on the side of websites. i I swear to God, I don't remember any of them.
00:25:04
Bdizzle
like at all. I'm completely blind to them. They might as well not exist. I've never clicked on one in my life. I will never click on one. But that was, if you think about it, when we were growing up, Andrew, maybe that's what we're inoculated by is we we're we're really good at the banner ads, forced advertising. We're terrible at the doom scroll, right? We don't have the equipment for that.
00:25:25
Bdizzle
So maybe the up-and-coming generations will be better equipped because the environment they're in is so, I i guess, violent. so It's a violent battleground for their attention. Maybe they'll grow somehow to to be inoculated in the same way that, like, name a banner ad you've seen in the last two weeks.
00:25:43
Bdizzle
I couldn't name you one.
00:25:43
Andrew Wilmot
I couldn't name you a single advert that I've seen in the past week, let alone banner ads.
00:25:47
Bdizzle
Yeah, but but please write to us. Anyone listening, can anyone between the ages
00:25:51
Andrew Wilmot
and any know Any of our listeners work in marketing? How's that at the moment?
00:25:55
Bdizzle
Yeah, how's the ROI on, well, I guess, who's buying it? Who's clicking on banner ads? Please write to us and let us know.
00:26:01
Andrew Wilmot
i mean I mean, you say that... not to turn this into the beating up on Roblox show yet again. Did you see that they were achieving 90% engagement rates on the in-game adverts?
00:26:13
Andrew Wilmot
They were paying kids to watch the ads, paying kids with in-game items. 90%. 90%.
00:26:19
Bdizzle
Oh, you... like on ah can have too much in i can't have too much seed in one episode, Andrew.
00:26:22
Andrew Wilmot
ninety percent
00:26:26
Bdizzle
We're going to have to... We'll spin up an entire episode just for that. yeah Well, i just I just want to hear the argument.
00:26:32
Andrew Wilmot
the
00:26:34
Bdizzle
Oh, we're not maliciously trying to commercialise your children's attention, but also...
00:26:39
Andrew Wilmot
Also, we're going we're going to pay them fake items to watch adverts. Anyway, let's let's let's let's move on from that. So you'll have to forgive me just to sort of close off the hope there.
00:26:54
Andrew Wilmot
You'll have to forgive me if I say... Whilst I hope that is true, that's not an experiment I would like my kids to be participants
Need for Research and Parental Guidance
00:27:02
Andrew Wilmot
in.
00:27:03
Bdizzle
Well, that I couldn't agree more, Andrew. And that that's the key distinction where it might happen.
00:27:09
Andrew Wilmot
Hmm.
00:27:10
Bdizzle
That's a dangerous might. It's like, it it's like should we use this new additive for a microwave meal? There's a chance that it you know ruins 10% of people's lives who eats it or heavily impacts it.
00:27:21
Bdizzle
We'll chance it. like with It's very clear to me that like extensive research needs to be done in this space for its incredible benefit and its possible dangers.
00:27:33
Bdizzle
And I'm yet to be convinced that enough has been done for us to then walk around and start Apple-certifying schools.
00:27:44
Andrew Wilmot
how How did we let that happen? Should we start certifying schools?
00:27:47
Bdizzle
Well...
00:27:49
Bdizzle
I have not...
00:27:50
Andrew Wilmot
Dopamine slot machine certified school.
00:27:52
Bdizzle
Maybe, maybe we should. Maybe we we'll take on the big boys, Andrew, me and you.
00:27:56
Andrew Wilmot
What should our standards be for it?
00:27:56
Bdizzle
What should our standards be for it? I don't know. Well, quick shout out to smartphone free childhood. Maybe that's... Maybe that's what... Well, that's got to be up there.
00:28:12
Bdizzle
i
00:28:12
Andrew Wilmot
ah'll say I'd sooner send my child to smartphone free childhood certified school than a bloody Apple certified school.
00:28:20
Bdizzle
yeah Genuinely, it might maybe that's what will start bringing around change, where instead of like these types of certifications, it's more smartphone-free, etc., etc. And that's set the we're back on the hope train.
00:28:36
Bdizzle
Everyone smile. it's not It's not a disaster waiting to happen, hopefully.
00:28:41
Andrew Wilmot
So i' got a really good I've got a really good question that I received earlier.
00:28:42
Bdizzle
But the state of play isn't good.
00:28:46
Andrew Wilmot
So we were actually inundated with questions. I put out a call for some questions on this episode. And we've tried to integrate some of those questions into the conversation we've had.
00:28:59
Andrew Wilmot
But this one specific question I wanted to address separately. And here it is. So my year 10 daughter is doing her maths homework on Sparks. It's neither realistic or reasonable for me to hover over her screen while she does this, and this would foster distrust.
00:29:15
Andrew Wilmot
But when I take back her laptop, I expect she will have visited no less than five other websites during this allocated maths homework period. If she was doing maths on paper, there'd be far less distraction.
00:29:26
Andrew Wilmot
Now imagine having this issue with every subject where homework is online. How can parents realistically manage this? The first thing I want to say is parents shouldn't have to realistically manage this.
00:29:38
Andrew Wilmot
that this this shouldn't be okay i i get the why and i get i get the marketing pitch of edtech but i also don't understand why it's so hard to send a worksheet out or even some of these edtech platforms to make it so you can print it off and then scan it back in
00:30:01
Bdizzle
Yeah, it's a weird state of affairs. i'm I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out. it' so It's a wild time to be a psychologist, psychologist Andrew. It's a wild time.
00:30:13
Bdizzle
But yeah, I couldn't agree more.
00:30:13
Andrew Wilmot
so
00:30:15
Bdizzle
I think that the current landscape just poses these types of questions, which is how have we even gotten to this stage anyway?
00:30:22
Andrew Wilmot
So from a from your perspective, as a psychologist, how would what what what could you suggest for both parent and child to be able to minimise distractions here?
00:30:33
Andrew Wilmot
I've got a couple ideas.
00:30:35
Bdizzle
Well, I'll call back to something that I said previously, like project inoculation, right? You know, where you're so much of our lives will now be defined by almost our ability to control our impulses and that immediate gratification to not get distracted, stay on task for a longer term abstract goal, like but becoming better at maths.
00:30:41
Andrew Wilmot
but
00:30:57
Bdizzle
So...
00:30:57
Andrew Wilmot
But that's a that's a skill you have to practice, right?
00:31:00
Bdizzle
Exactly. But maybe this is an opportunity to practice that. Do your maths homework. You have all of these things available to you. You know, punish and gratify or create reinforcement networks around when your your son or daughter doesn't get distracted. And that's kind of where my brain goes.
00:31:16
Bdizzle
But it's almost with a heavy heart because I'd feel a lot better saying that if there wasn't big teams of people designing things for this exact purpose, for exact age regions, right?
00:31:29
Bdizzle
It's almost like it's it's not a fair fight.
00:31:31
Andrew Wilmot
So you can't you can't carry it and stick your way out of millions of dollars of research being dedicated to this specific outcome.
00:31:42
Bdizzle
I'd like to believe that you can, but it's an uphill battle. it's not a it's it's it's getting It's not a fair fight. You're getting suckers punched and the person's not bigger than you. They're the most powerful organizations in the world hiring the best talent in the world and then deploying these deploying them for this exact purpose, right?
00:32:03
Bdizzle
So that's what kind of gives me a heavy heart while I say that, you know, in terms of ways to implement that, I feel like you might be better equipped to maybe build on this, Andrew.
00:32:14
Andrew Wilmot
So I understand this is a real luxury, but for us, having that separate device that is only used for homework was game changer. I mean, we were just doing it off our phones before, and it was so easy for us to get like us to get distracted. Forget you know our our child doing the homework to get distracted, but us as adults whilst our child is doing homework.
00:32:38
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah. And by separating it so you've got your personal laptop that you might do your personal email, your social media, you tend by that age realistically probably has some forms of social media. They'll be very unusual not to at this point, putting aside the pros and cons. But then having a separate workstation, that is, your you are there for homework.
00:33:05
Andrew Wilmot
You've never logged into Facebook there. again, at year 10 realistically, probably not Facebook. Now, there are tools where you can really lock everything down. And so, depending on your router controls, you could could set it up so that they could only access the maths, only access Sparks maths.
00:33:25
Andrew Wilmot
But again, i don't know.
00:33:29
Andrew Wilmot
For me... for it to get to that point, and I don't, when I say and something's gone wrong, right, and I don't mean that in the sense of something's gone wrong between parent and child, I mean something has gone wrong in the way that we treat children as a class within society.
00:33:49
Andrew Wilmot
kind of a heavy element to finish that off there.
00:33:51
Andrew Wilmot
LAUGHTER
00:33:52
Bdizzle
I just disappeared in my own head for a little bit like, oh, but I don't know. i i I'd like to believe that, you know, the fact that charities now exist bringing awareness to all of this. And I like to imagine a future where we can basically create tenable solutions and develop real understanding of how these things operate in order to improve things, you know.
00:34:19
Bdizzle
But it is it is disheartening to a certain degree.
00:34:23
Andrew Wilmot
So for for that lady who sent in that question, if you do try anything, get back in touch. We would love to hear what worked for you, what maybe didn't work for you. we are all on this learning journey together. We are all discovering the best ways to adapt to schools, which have put a real primacy on smartphones whilst on the other hand saying that, Oh, you know, we don't let children use smartphones in class, but all your homework has to be done on a smartphone.
00:34:53
Andrew Wilmot
This is a real collaborative effort here.
00:34:53
Bdizzle
Thank you.
00:34:55
Andrew Wilmot
I have seen some real successful cases of parents being real sticks in the mud on this and saying, we don't have a computer at home. Don't care if you say that's unlikely.
00:35:06
Andrew Wilmot
You'll have to give us worksheets. And again, I'm sure no teenager wants to be the only person in the class to receive a set of worksheets. But don't know, maybe that's a way forward.
Episode Wrap-Up and Listener Engagement
00:35:18
Andrew Wilmot
So that is everything we've got time for today. i don't forget, if you've got any questions for us, or if you or your children have been impacted by the issues we've discussed today, that you can get in touch with us on our website, thedopamineslotmachine.co.uk, or find us on the Dopamine Slot Machine Discussion Corner Facebook group.
00:35:37
Andrew Wilmot
All links can be found in our artist profile and would love to hear from you. That's all we have time for today. Thank you so much for joining us. We'd love to have you here with us again in our next episode, where we are again going to be taking some questions and answers because we'll be celebrating.
00:35:53
Andrew Wilmot
Little drum roll. 200 subscribers. so We actually hit 200 subscribers last week in a much shorter space of time than it took to get to the first 100.
00:36:05
Andrew Wilmot
This has been the Dopamine Slot Machine. Thank you and see you soon.