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Pokemon GO, a healthy mobile game?
64 Plays3 days ago
Andrew, a father of two and lifelong gamer, teams up with Brandon, a consumer psychologist and ex-pro video game coach, to cover video games, the way they are designed and how these design decisions impact the children that play them.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction & Host Backgrounds
00:00:11
Andrew Wilmot
Good morning, good day, good evening. Whenever you are, welcome to the Dopamine Slot Machine, the podcast that discusses what you need to know about the video games your children are playing. How are they designed to get your kids hooked?
00:00:22
Andrew Wilmot
How do they make money from your children? What can you do to make sure that your child's relationship with video games is a positive one? My name is Andrew. I'm a dad of two and a lifelong gamer.
00:00:32
Bdizzle
And I'm Brandon, a consumer research psychologist and an ex-professional video game coach.
Pokemon Go: Cultural Impact & Personal Stories
00:00:37
Andrew Wilmot
So we're going to be talking about Pokemon Go this week. And this should be a really interesting one because it's a mobile augmented reality game that can't be played without a phone. But that requires players to go outside, walk about to catch Pokemon and potentially even go to Pokemon Go meet. So it's sort a really interesting intersection for this podcast. um Now, I haven't played a huge amount of Pokemon Go.
00:01:05
Andrew Wilmot
But actually, Brandon has. So I'm just going to pass straight over to you and give us a little introduction. I'm sure everybody who who was ah alive about, what was it, 2016, that Pokemon Go had its real big phase?
00:01:21
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:01:23
Bdizzle
Yes, correct. We all have fond memories of watching the news reports of Melbourne, Australia, where you can't walk through the streets because everyone is playing Pokemon Go. It was, in essence, just a massive, almost like cultural event where I guess our generation, Andrew, really got in touch with...
00:01:43
Bdizzle
that young version of ourselves with our Game Boy Advance sat in a car with that weird kind of light thing that means that we can play in the dark more um catching Pokemon. And it's it it was the first kind of nostalgic bait experience that really brought ah us in contact with our history, but also in a lot of ways made us in touch with our present because we were forced into parks where we would run around ah searching for rare Pokemon when they appeared.
00:02:12
Andrew Wilmot
I just remember I was um doing an internship at the time, quite a big internship and it was on on a big work campus, one of those satellite sites. And i just remember every lunchtime, just everybody going across fields and across the campus to try and find Pokemon.
00:02:31
Andrew Wilmot
if you if If you don't remember, it was No.
00:02:34
Bdizzle
It was a big thing. And it wasn't just like kids or teenagers. I think it grabbed everyone in a chokehold for a little bit there.
00:02:38
Andrew Wilmot
i
00:02:42
Bdizzle
It was is very successful at what it did.
00:02:45
Andrew Wilmot
and And it's still very widely played. Like, if you if you go down to your park, there will be regular Pokemon Go meets. it's It's a full-on hobby, right?
Critique of Reward Systems in Pokemon Go
00:02:57
Bdizzle
Yeah, 100%. it's it's ah It's got to be, I think it is one of the most successful ah like kind of mobile games that's ever been made, which is ah no surprise because obviously everyone knows what Pokemon is. If I said, even even from the most disconnected from, let's say, the video game industry, and i said, you know, Pikachu to people, people would know what Pikachu is. They'll likely hear someone knowing what a Charizard is.
00:03:25
Bdizzle
is also very high. But if I said a Link or like another character from these very, very big video game titles, a lot of people wouldn't know who that is. it it did it was a very, very strange event.
00:03:37
Bdizzle
I think Pokemon really penetrated ah popular culture in a unique way.
00:03:43
Andrew Wilmot
So for the sake of our listeners who might have last really been aware of Pokemon in a cultural sense in the late 90s, early 2000s, or just because their kids might have watched the show, could you explain top down what is Pokemon Go?
00:04:03
Bdizzle
So Pokemon Go is a game that we hate on this podcast. like we it's It's got all the hallmarks of a game that we hate on this podcast. So you you log in, it's very hierarchical.
00:04:17
Bdizzle
There's a lot of random number generation in terms of random reward networks. So where you live, you might log in one day and there's a rare Pokemon spawn near you. And when you move around, there'll be a rare Pokemon or rare creature that you can catch.
00:04:34
Bdizzle
And that's very variable reward. It's like a loot box with like a few extra steps in it, right? um the The difference is is there's that keyword, which is like move around.
00:04:46
Bdizzle
So you're rewarded for movement. You're rewarded for being out in the world, traveling to different
Movement, Health Benefits, and Game Design
00:04:51
Bdizzle
locations. So if you were ah where I am, for example, I live in like kind of an urban landscape. I'd get certain type of monsters that I can catch or Pokemon.
00:05:03
Bdizzle
But if I walk two kilometers or a kilometer and I'm by a river, i'm now taking ah I now have the opportunity or an increased opportunity to create a capture water-based monsters or Pokemon.
00:05:16
Bdizzle
right So it's it's kind of unique in that way in terms of it brings a lot of these mechanisms into movement. And I'm a huge fan of movement. I'm sure we'll go on to... ah this topic later on in the podcast inevitably and but that that's the way I'd describe it it's like in in a sentence it's a creature collection game um and what makes it unique is that one is's or two things is that it's very popular it links into nostalgia a lot other franchises and titles but it also rewards just movement which I think is a very very interesting kind of slant Pokemon Go has
00:05:54
Andrew Wilmot
So I don't think there's going to be anybody here listening that is going to disagree with the statement that moving more is generally a good thing. ah We spend too much time sat down. i know I certainly do.
00:06:08
Andrew Wilmot
It is a struggle to get enough exercise. It's struggle to get enough movement. We know that children, child obesity rates are have been going up over the last few years, well, for pretty much our entire generation.
00:06:22
Andrew Wilmot
And we know that it's a little bit of a health crisis. At the same time, obviously, we are concerned about the yet to perhaps be publicly identified as a health crisis, although it's starting to be seen as a health crisis, the degree of smart device addiction that we're seeing, particularly in young children.
00:06:46
Andrew Wilmot
um And this really sits at that sort of confluence of two factors. So everybody listening is already going to know moving is good, walking is good, going for walks around the park is good, exploring new places, depending on those new places, of course. ah let's Let's not pretend that it's exactly the same taking a stroll up a lovely river as it is perhaps.
00:07:07
Andrew Wilmot
um And I remember seeing some headlines about it, Pokemon Go players actually breaking into areas that they weren't supposed to be in. because it had generated a a rare Pokemon in that area.
00:07:20
Andrew Wilmot
um So putting aside the movement aspect, let's let's talk about um the addictive design elements, because I do know that it's got quite a few of them.
00:07:32
Bdizzle
Okay. So, and it is a side of an okay, well, it's a big question, but also I feel like I want to contextualize something first in terms of like how important movement is, right?
00:07:35
Andrew Wilmot
Big question.
00:07:44
Bdizzle
Because I'm now going to Pokemon go through the washing machine in terms of its dangers. And I, I don't think it belongs in the same category in terms of like end-to-end malicious design. There is some light, I think, with Pokemon Go.
00:08:03
Bdizzle
And that's because human beings, ah like the entirety of our reward networks are are arguably interlinked with movement, right? And that's because for the huge portion of our evolutionary history, we were moving around a lot.
00:08:15
Bdizzle
We were... very, very early on, we're talking early bipedalism, ah commuting a lot for, let's say, fruit or ah moving to different gathering locations.
00:08:27
Bdizzle
Past that, we we even were doing persistent ah persistent hunting, where it'd basically run after a deer with heatstroke until it got heatstroke or died of exhaustion, would then pick that up and then walk that back to our tribal community, which is some mental behavior. there's no There's a reason why human beings want to run marathons and ultra marathons for fun, right?
00:08:50
Andrew Wilmot
I mean, I will say that speak speak for yourself.
00:08:50
Bdizzle
It's hard-coated.
00:08:54
Andrew Wilmot
I cannot, and I like to think I'm fairly active, but I cannot think of it anything worse. And I've run half marathons, um but the idea of doing half a marathon and then thinking, you know what?
00:09:06
Andrew Wilmot
You know what would really hit the spot? Doing it again.
00:09:10
Bdizzle
Well, like, ah conversely, and i agree with you, like, there's a lot of monsters out there, right? and The idea of running a marathon is horrendous. But if you compare your well-being on a day that you do 10,000 steps versus 2,000, and you, like, plotted that on a graph, like, in terms of your perspective, Andrew, like, do you think you'd be happier?
00:09:30
Andrew Wilmot
Depends why I've done the 10,000 steps. Is it because I've bloody left something behind at the shops and had to do a massive run? I mean, I'm i'm joking there.
00:09:36
Bdizzle
ah You're baiting me with a terrible answer.
00:09:37
Andrew Wilmot
Generally speaking, in aggregate, not trying to pick holes or or be silly about this. No, absolutely. um The more you move, the happier you are.
00:09:48
Andrew Wilmot
the the The better you eat, the happier you are. And that's not to say that if you eat well and you move more and you sleep well, that therefore you will automatically be happy. But it just... Even dealing with things that are rubbish, even if you've otherwise had a bad day, if you've moved, if you've eaten well, and if you've slept well, then it's easy to deal with that. It it makes the highs higher and the lows a little bit higher too.
00:10:13
Bdizzle
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, that it really makes a core pillar in terms of that kind of foundational aspect of being human. And it's very, very rare that a digital medium really supports that. So you look at your social media, your YouTube, your Netflix, any kind of multi-billion dollar company nowadays, ah that's not really on the forefront of their agenda.
00:10:35
Bdizzle
It's like, let's improve kind of reward circuit function in people through incentivizing movements. And I feel like the future could be a lot brighter if we incentivize these companies through basically our own pocket to and our own money to to provide these types of solutions. That could be a really interesting, weird future. You know, maybe the only exception is the kind of gamified ah exercise bikes that you see where you can have competitions, et cetera, et cetera.
Monetization Strategies and Children's Well-being
00:11:06
Andrew Wilmot
But go back to the addictive design.
00:11:07
Bdizzle
But yeah, that that that being said,
00:11:10
Andrew Wilmot
ah know you're a fan.
00:11:11
Bdizzle
oh no ah well, strangely, there's different versions of being a fan. So me as a fully grown adult in charge of my wallet and I guess weathered by the onslaught of ah variable rewards that our digital world gives us,
00:11:29
Bdizzle
i what ah what i still just well A good question is is, do I still play it? And the answer is no. you know And that's because foundationally, and it's very, very contentious topic inside these communities, which is this idea of pay to win.
00:11:45
Bdizzle
And the pay to win is basically where you can't really compete on the same level or at the same velocity as other people if you're not putting a lot of money down. And that's basically the bread and butter of a lot of these smartphone applications or these these these these these pieces of digital media.
00:12:05
Bdizzle
The reason why that's a problem in the context of this discussion and generally is that naturally you've got a big company. When they look at their quarterly results on an Excel, you can almost imagine it, um they're looking to ah really optimize the amount of cash flow that they're receiving.
00:12:26
Bdizzle
which pushes them to increasingly aggressive monetization techniques. So again, like ah the large portion of funding for these applications aren't from the general public. They're from the, let's say top 20% of ah people that put push money into the game, where if they put 500, 600 pounds, dollars, whatever into this application, that's not a big deal for them.
00:12:49
Bdizzle
And that's the way they design these games. And, Top down from a design perspective, it's designed to push and reward that type of engagement.
00:13:02
Bdizzle
And that's fine, again, for me as a grown man. Maybe I shouldn't spend £70 to ah catch digital monsters because I want to feel good for five seconds. so But if you're a young individual, it can pose problems.
00:13:18
Bdizzle
And that foundation is where Pokemon Go goes wrong. And it does do a great job of putting it in a frilly dress, So to compete in certain events, you have to um pay money, but it's in community spirit, um just as an example. So you can kind of mask the fact that it's this big extraction exercise with that element of kind of socializing and playing with other ah other members inside the community.
00:13:45
Bdizzle
But, you know, you you can't... A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. And that's how I would describe Pokemon Go, where it's almost done a ah really remarkable job of fostering this desire for movement and rewarding it in really unique and interesting ways.
00:14:06
Bdizzle
I'll give ah this is an embarrassing example. um So ah viewers, please forget about this, about my life. But I remember at one stage I'd get almost more excited about going for a run because I would... ah ah Maybe this is a great analogy. I'd purchased something ah that you can buy as an accessory where it will automatically catch Pokemon for you as long as you had Pokeballs, which is that you have like the ingredient to catch these monsters as you walked around.
00:14:35
Bdizzle
And I remember distinctly getting more excited for a 10k run Because I bought this accessory and I can carry it with me while I went on my jog. And that means that I'd get a lot of Pokemon while I'm just kind of running around because I'm walking but faster, right? um But the flip side of that coin is I've bought an accessory.
00:14:55
Bdizzle
I'm now motivating myself to run that's tied to an organization that's designed to extract money from me. So it's that kind of double-edged sword. And that's kind of how I would describe Pokemon Go, which is that you just, although it has these latent advantages intertwined within it, it's still delivered in a way where their sole purpose is to extract money in the most violent way possible.
00:15:23
Bdizzle
And as a byproduct of that, you have variable reward, you have and obfuscated currency.
00:15:31
Andrew Wilmot
that That's the poker coins, right?
00:15:32
Bdizzle
basically Yes, correct.
00:15:33
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, they've got the same thing as Robux, V-Bucks.
00:15:36
Bdizzle
Yeah.
00:15:38
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, they've got their own thing.
00:15:39
Bdizzle
It just goes on, right? um ah they But there they're not the most one of the highest grossing mobile games for no reason, right? they deploy the bible of how to extract the maximum amount of money ah from people the only difference is in comparison to let's say your roblox or your fortnite is maybe going on ah a small walk is a slightly more enjoyable and i'm not sure how to feel about that personally but In terms of like, is this a sign of like light at the end of the tunnel where we can potentially use like ah and these types of mechanisms for a net good?
00:16:18
Bdizzle
Maybe.
00:16:21
Bdizzle
But is that massive but it still is what it is. And whether or not that should be legal, whether or not we should be almost very, very uncomfortable when this is still targeted at young children.
00:16:37
Bdizzle
You know, when you think of like creature creating games, um the the the target market you imagine, and I'm sure ah the viewers at home would agree with this, is younger children.
00:16:49
Bdizzle
But this is this is where we are once again.
00:16:49
Andrew Wilmot
yeah
00:16:53
Bdizzle
the the kind of darker elements to talking about digital design.
00:16:59
Andrew Wilmot
It's really not hard to go find and on the internet dozens and dozens examples of, and as with any quote-unquote free game like this, where children have spent hundreds or thousands on just in and in Pokemon Go, just without their parents knowing.
00:17:17
Andrew Wilmot
I found one here. Our toddler just spent all the money in our bank account on Pokemon Go. Child accidentally $25,000. And yes, I get to the perspective that if you are going to give your child a smart device on which they're playing games, and those games have roots for monetization, including microtransactions,
00:17:40
Andrew Wilmot
then as a parent, it is your responsibility to shut that down. However, I also then looked look at these games and thinking, king well, even being confident in myself, I just don't think that I would want my child to have that, even if I had locked it down.
00:17:57
Andrew Wilmot
Nah,
00:17:58
Bdizzle
Well, the the the argument is is that you can sit there and look at those articles, and they are like fluff pieces. I'm a very cynical guy. Andrew knows this. I'm a very cynical guy.
00:18:07
Andrew Wilmot
i wouldn't say that.
00:18:08
Bdizzle
aye the
00:18:09
Andrew Wilmot
Not at all.
00:18:10
Bdizzle
but
00:18:10
Andrew Wilmot
I'm kidding.
00:18:12
Bdizzle
But ah you you have like two arguments, which is you sit there and you're like, these parents had it coming. They weren't. monitoring, like they gave their that young child free access to their card.
00:18:23
Bdizzle
And I think that's, it to honest with a completely fair argument. I agree with you. If you're sitting at home thinking that, I agree with you. But what we should question collectively is the fact that the game design and the system design brought that reaction from a young child.
00:18:40
Bdizzle
And that's because it's designed to do that.
Game Mechanics: Streaks & Real-World Comparisons
00:18:43
Bdizzle
And in your case, it might be, or a control case, it's in more subtle ways, But it's that's ah like the end point of the reflection of that design in terms of what can happen.
00:18:55
Bdizzle
um And it's very obvious, but what we should be kind of concerned about when we talk about these types of mechanisms is what's probably happening that's almost like underneath the radar, which is we're from a very, very young age indoctrinating people in the kind of the church of variable reward and not in a way that's a byproduct of hard effort Kind of, kind of with Pokemon Go because you have to walk a little bit, but it's still not the main driver. but You can go into detail about that.
00:19:26
Bdizzle
But it's that's not reflective of how you function in the real world. The real world is this arduous chore almost in comparison to these platforms where you have to work to even upskill to even begin to hope of achieving something. And it's so detached from that. That's what really bothers me.
00:19:45
Bdizzle
um Yeah. andrew Andrew, you've got to save me. I feel like I'm smiling a little bit. I'll just...
00:19:52
Andrew Wilmot
Streak mechanics.
00:19:52
Bdizzle
na on
00:19:52
Andrew Wilmot
There we go. I've i've bit up' been sat here wanting to say those two words. Streak mechanics. For those that on complete aren't sure what I mean by that, I'm not talking about what occasionally happens at your local football game.
00:20:07
Andrew Wilmot
I am talking about the type of mechanics you'll find in... It's not just... ah games by the way but social media snapchat is famous for having its snapchat streak where you get rewards for logging in daily doing activities daily to maintain that habit so it goes from being ah a game you play an activity you do during some downtime to something that is part of your daily routine pokemon go i understand does have streak mechanics but i don't really know too much about them in this context here what do they do
00:20:40
Bdizzle
Well, it it's it's just simple reward network stuff, right? So if you've, hypothetically, like, Jolingo is the king of this. They're so good. Those guys are, like, those guys do it better than anyone.
00:20:54
Bdizzle
And so the idea of if you've been doing something every day for three days, right, and you miss a day, it's not a problem. But if you've been doing something for 100 days, right,
00:21:07
Bdizzle
and you miss a single day and you lose your streak, thus suddenly that will take a hundred days of like combined effort to match that. And as a byproduct of that, you you weirdly get almost like cult-like indoctrinated where you have to keep something going. So like Snapchat's really famous for this, for their Snapchat streaks.
00:21:26
Bdizzle
um We'll do an episode at some point. Andrew, this is a heads up to you about the evil of the ecosystem associated with Snapchat because Christ, like ah lot, some of this is maybe like, oh, you can confuse ah malicious for malicious intent for incompetence. Snapchat is not that at all. We'll go into that later on.
00:21:48
Bdizzle
and But, yeah. um
00:21:52
Andrew Wilmot
the the the only thing i mean The only thing I'll say about Snapchat is if you know anybody who works in the police, go ask them just how much, particularly if they work with anything involving children, just how much they have to deal with because of Snapchat and how much harder it makes their job.
00:21:52
Bdizzle
but
00:22:11
Bdizzle
oh oh Andrew, we can't. In the next episode, well, maybe we agree here, the next episode might be on Snapchat, Andrew.
00:22:19
Andrew Wilmot
ah think I think maybe we do need to agree that
00:22:21
Bdizzle
I think, yeah, I think that's another important episode for us. and But maybe as a ah ah prelude to that, that's kind of how Snap... streaks work, right? And it is really, really common where if you fail to, and think about how malicious that is in design, is that you could be 200, 300 days into something.
00:22:41
Bdizzle
And ah if you don't log in, you lose that streak, that net benefit. you're never going to get that back, you know? and And you can form very, very strong emotional attachments to that, which is self-evidently a big problem.
Age Appropriateness of Pokemon Go for Children
00:22:58
Bdizzle
um And I'm sure we will cover more in our Snapchat episode, Andrew. My God.
00:23:04
Bdizzle
but
00:23:05
Andrew Wilmot
So, moving on quickly, um I'm going to give a few ages here, and I just want ah yes or no question there no answer, and then one sentence as to why.
00:23:15
Andrew Wilmot
And what i'm going to ask here is, you know, for this age of child, should we let them have Pokemon Go? They're asking for it. You ready? Do you have to prepare?
00:23:27
Andrew Wilmot
All right.
00:23:28
Bdizzle
I'm ready, Andrew. I'm ready. I've been in my thought palace and I'm ready to go.
00:23:33
Andrew Wilmot
All right, let's start low here. Let's say ah say my three-year-old. Should I give my three-year-old Pokemon Go?
00:23:40
Bdizzle
i would say, i would say, and it's up to parental discretion. I'm a huge believer in that, but I would say no, like kind of normalizing screens being exposed to variable reward, because although it's clouded, it's still variable reward. You can throw something, Pokeball at something. and It's bad, I would say no.
00:24:02
Andrew Wilmot
and And it being a mobile phone screen, which of course is unfortunately ubiquitous um versus a screen that is a place you go to.
00:24:05
Bdizzle
Yes.
00:24:10
Bdizzle
Yes, correct.
00:24:12
Andrew Wilmot
right, let's step it up. with let Let's go into going to year one. Let's go into year one here. Let's say five-year-old. So um maybe by five, they've got a little bit more than I did.
00:24:24
Andrew Wilmot
At five, something like a quarter of their peers have their own smartphone.
00:24:31
Bdizzle
It's so tough because i like I can see the advantages for it in terms of walking behaviors and these types of things. But I feel like the the thing that's haunting me as you asked this, Andrew, is the the argument that it's okay to have a slot machine given to your kid while you're having dinner.
00:24:49
Bdizzle
It's still nice that they're at dinner the dinner table while you're out and about and they're being quiet. But...
00:24:54
Andrew Wilmot
The hustle never ends.
00:24:55
Bdizzle
yeah But also, yeah, but also it's probably bad, right?
00:24:56
Andrew Wilmot
Chasing that win.
00:24:58
Bdizzle
So like if I had to put money, this is where it gets more opaque. And I'd always i'd always give the writer confidence to parents because I think like parents that care enough to be listening to us, Andrew, also is like a weird kind of variable in this.
00:25:15
Bdizzle
To be that inquisitive and seek other opinions, I'd really... I'll put my up at my bet hypothetically behind their opinion in their particular situation.
00:25:27
Bdizzle
But for population level data, I would say no, no, inm no way in hell. but i say I still wouldn't do it.
00:25:34
Andrew Wilmot
One thing i should probably clarify here as well is, of course, every child is different. This is something that I'm i'm saying a lot to my daughter at the moment, where she's saying, oh, when I'm 16, which is a few years away from her, when I'm 16, will you let me stay in the house by myself whilst you go on holiday?
00:25:55
Andrew Wilmot
This came out of a conversation about my parents doing the same. And i was like, well, it's not an age thing. It is a where you are at maturity and trust and, you know, the sort of person you are and the sort of person you go grow into being. I certainly hope that I would be able to trust and leave you at home if you didn't want to come away with us on a weekend somewhere.
00:26:16
Andrew Wilmot
and the same will apply here right we i said said a five-year-old now five is still probably relatively black and white as you were saying uh but as we go through the ages it's going to get grayer and grayer and so for my next age i'm going to give you here so going into what going into a year year three uh for an eight-year-old um ah appreciate it's going to be
00:26:40
Bdizzle
Thank you.
00:26:41
Andrew Wilmot
harder and harder to draw that black and white distinction, yes or no, just because at eight years old, you're going to have a huge range in maturity levels.
00:26:51
Bdizzle
Andrew, I've been thinking pretty deeply about this age range for like the last week. And what's haunting me about it is how kind of strangely intelligent kids are. you know like they They are really capable of and dissecting moral decisions. And at this age, I would almost start equipping them with a scam is a scam.
00:27:14
Bdizzle
you know And the the monetization elements of... Pokemon Go um is, you know, you could use it as a platform to start preparing them from the for these types of elements to be like a real real problem.
00:27:29
Bdizzle
Would I say unrestricted use? Definitely not. You know, the idea of um sitting um so sitting down somewhere and just being ah tied to a slot machine is obviously a bad idea.
00:27:44
Andrew Wilmot
but like a play together model.
00:27:44
Bdizzle
But Yeah, ah play a play together model could be really interesting, especially because it's interacted with movement. So at the age of eight, if you started introducing other digital media, um you know, I really want to sit down and watch this documentary. even Right. But you want to, you know, they haven't ah gone for a walk today. So you want to motivate ah your child to go to a walk.
00:28:09
Bdizzle
And that kind of fun element of fun, collaborative kind of searching could stop really playing a factor at this age. and But it's something that I would do with caution and thought.
00:28:21
Bdizzle
You know, it's not, you're not introducing something that's benign. There's something you can leave on its own for full exploration and not see any bad art the side effects.
00:28:32
Bdizzle
Because if you take it to its end point, from a young age, you are basically arguing for hours and hours and hour hours of exposure to variable rewards centered around a monetization system, which is not necessarily healthy in all likelihood.
00:28:49
Andrew Wilmot
So taking that same age, if they then were like, I want to spend my pocket money on poker coins, that probably sounded kind true. The poker coins, the Pokemon coins, not poker chips here.
00:29:04
Andrew Wilmot
um
00:29:04
Bdizzle
ah That's a great that's are it's a great analogy. yeah but but But I know where you going with this, Andrew, and the answer is no, unconditionally no. You normalize almost beating the man through just not participating in these systems and finding other ways to entertain yourself.
00:29:24
Bdizzle
I think that's, I know for me, as a prospective father, that's where where I'll be going.
00:29:31
Andrew Wilmot
Okay. let Let's go ahead a few more years. Year seven, so there'll be 11 or 12. How are we feeling about it now? Potentially, the majority of their peers at this point have their first, maybe even their second smartphone.
00:29:47
Andrew Wilmot
I know listeners to this podcast will trend towards wanting to give phones later, ah but reality is at the moment... most 11 year olds will have a smartphone, particularly if they are taking public transport to and from school.
00:30:01
Andrew Wilmot
So Pokemon Go, yourre your 12 year old turns around and says, look, know you've got my my app store restricted, but my mates are playing Pokemon Go at school.
00:30:13
Andrew Wilmot
They love it. i want to play it too. What do say?
00:30:16
Bdizzle
Well, I think that's an interesting kind of inclusion that you slid in there. Because Andrew, if you didn you didn't include that my friends were playing it, I would have been like, I'm going to just refer back to my earlier comment.
00:30:28
Bdizzle
Because they are like very, very similar standpoints. But the moment you start using this application to expand your world, you're engaging with your friends to do something competitive.
00:30:40
Bdizzle
you you can soften up, it becomes more of a blurred line because you're now paying for something ink that ah transcends this kind of weird digital world into something that affects you positively.
00:30:51
Bdizzle
But the dialogue the that I would personally have around it and what I would be very, very mindful of is, again, this is a very, this is a multi-billion dollar organization trying to extract money from you.
00:31:05
Bdizzle
and you have to weigh that up from the benefit of socializing from the benefit of engagement so
00:31:13
Andrew Wilmot
And then there's the element of if you're introducing, you're playing the same thing as your friends and different parents will have different policies here, it's very likely that you're going to have one of their peers who is just like, yeah, I will just spend as much money as possible to be the best.
00:31:26
Bdizzle
hundreds of pounds
00:31:26
Andrew Wilmot
And your kid's going want to do the same, right? just go ah They'll turn around because they've seen one person do this and say, everybody does this. It's not fair that you don't let me. Something along those lines.
00:31:36
Bdizzle
Correct. like I couldn't agree more. Like a slippery slope argument is almost like a fallacy in a lot contexts, right? Because you're you're pertaining like one argument leading to a sequence of events. But I think with these digital applications, when it comes to youth, it's like undeniable, right?
00:31:54
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, the the the company is actively greasing up that slope.
00:31:55
Bdizzle
If all
00:31:58
Bdizzle
but they've got They're spending millions of pounds per year to grease the hell out that slope. That's their business model. And when you're dealing with like companies that have got, they're paying people hunt like 200, 300,000 pounds a year specialists, and that's their only job is to grease that pole, right?
00:32:20
Bdizzle
but Of course it works. It's not like an illusion of a slippery slope. it's a It's a design... extensively scrutinized slippery slope for maximum effect.
00:32:30
Bdizzle
And that's what I would always keep in mind when it comes these applications. And I'm such a, and Andrew can vouch for this, I'm such a, when it comes to movement, exercise, walking around,
00:32:43
Bdizzle
I think it's maybe the most important change we can actually make to well-being in the next 30 years, which is like normalizing large amounts of movement because I think our neurobiology is so linked to it.
00:32:56
Bdizzle
So I should be so for Pokemon Go. should be the biggest advocate. I should be in a fistfight with Andrew. This podcast would be more entertaining about the benefits of that. But even then, I still have these massive reservations in terms of its design, and its target grouping.
00:33:16
Andrew Wilmot
All right. We will will stop there in terms of what ages to look at, because, you know, let's be honest, if you've got a 15-year-old and they've got a smartphone, which I think like 99% of 15-year-olds do have a
Digital Media's Impact on Children
00:33:28
Andrew Wilmot
smartphone.
00:33:29
Andrew Wilmot
I've not got to the Ofcom stats in front of me there, but, you know, it's going to be comfortably the vast majority. ah if if they want to play Pokemon Go, they will.
00:33:41
Andrew Wilmot
Such is the nature of teenagers. and certainly not going to be like, ah, so what about, you know, my my son's just about to go to university. Should I let him play Pokemon Go? Because that's just going to be a little bit ridiculous. I think 12 is a good cutoff point there.
00:33:55
Andrew Wilmot
So it feels like we're are a very mixed place here where we've we've come to that same using bad to do good argument that we sort of have with EdTech a lot at the moment.
00:34:10
Andrew Wilmot
Um,
00:34:12
Andrew Wilmot
don't know, even after all this, I really don't know how I feel about Pokemon go. And people will ask me as I'm not going to say as a expert or, or, you know, voice of authority on the matter, but just as somebody who has played games my entire life across every platform imaginable, uh, from, from phones to VR, desktop computers, consoles, dozens of them.
00:34:38
Andrew Wilmot
um it's rare for me to come across a game where I'm like, yeah, i really don't know how I feel about this.
00:34:45
Bdizzle
Well, the way i I think maybe that's the answer, Andrew. I honestly believe that. where What we need as a society is more anxiety, which is a wild thing to say nowadays, but hear me out.
00:34:58
Bdizzle
So when it comes to the foods that we eat, ah you have like big segments worried about seed oils or ah the Canto diet or like whatever, right? the Additives, processed food, whatever.
00:35:10
Andrew Wilmot
yeah Sorry, the Kanto diet. Are we still on about Pokemon here?
00:35:13
Bdizzle
Oh, Canto? Canto? ah canter elm Keto, keto.
00:35:15
Andrew Wilmot
Keto. itto um for for ah For our listeners who who won't have caught that, um the Kanto region is the region for the first Pokemon game.
00:35:18
Bdizzle
Thank you
00:35:27
Andrew Wilmot
So Brandon has been so deep in the source of Pokemon Go that he's mixed up Kanto and Keto. um Fantastic.
00:35:35
Bdizzle
me.
00:35:35
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah.
00:35:36
Bdizzle
Andrew, I am struggling to keep it together. but but I'm trying to, I'm holding onto this trail of thought for dear life after that. It's very funny. um But we don't approach the, we don't approach the digital media, our children and our, we ourselves consumed with the same veracity, right?
00:35:57
Bdizzle
And that's the the key kind of resistor stone factor here is that we should be incredibly anxious and approach a deep level of thought In our individual situations, when we expose ourselves, number one, ourselves, even ourselves to this type of media, let alone our children.
00:36:18
Bdizzle
And, um you know, ah for our listeners, you're you're probably doing a great job because you've you've sat through 30 minutes of a discussion on this topic. and But that's, I think, the key takeaway, which is like really critically evaluate, put things in the frame that they belong in, which is that ah a multi-billion dollar company is looking to try to extract money, not from you, from your kid asking for money or harassing you for money for that for that purpose.
00:36:49
Bdizzle
And although there's positives and negatives, especially with pokemon go that's the bottom line and well i'm sure like uh i feel like me and andrew would have to set up a research lab for like three well not three months probably like three years ah to even like be very very confident and in a conclusion so i think that's the end output
00:37:13
Andrew Wilmot
By the way, if any of our listeners want to fund said research lab, absolutely. Just hit me up.
Virtual Reality for Children: Concerns and Evaluations
00:37:19
Andrew Wilmot
ah You can find us at thedopamineslotmachine.co.uk. I'm kidding, of course.
00:37:24
Bdizzle
We'll do a great job, I promise.
00:37:24
Andrew Wilmot
Or am I? Yeah. That'd be a lot of fun. um but actually That conversation really segues really nicely into... um a question i got so i'll just read the question verbatim for now and that is my nine-year-old son is desperate for a virtual reality headset so he can play a game called gorilla tag is virtual reality appropriate for children and what do you know about gorilla tag you heard about gorilla tag
00:37:53
Bdizzle
I'm relatively thin on the ground when it comes to Guerrilla Tag. Could you enlighten me, Andrew?
00:37:58
Andrew Wilmot
so i have played gorilla tag but i sort of want to address the Because there's two questions in here. It's secretly two questions in one. um The first question being, is VR appropriate for kids? And from a... um look i'm I'm not an only doctor.
00:38:13
Andrew Wilmot
Optometrist. um I'm not an expert here, but I'm pretty sure that it's recommended for 13 years and up, and that's to do with the way your eye grows. Have got that right? Can somebody pull that up? but the point The point I'm trying to get at here is...
00:38:31
Andrew Wilmot
we You see warnings about the use of VR for children anyway, and maybe it's a little bit different you know trying it on at a science museum compared to potentially spending hours a day within that space.
00:38:47
Andrew Wilmot
ah But... Gorilla Tag itself is... So it's kind of exactly what it sounds like. it's You all play as gorillas without legs, officially nicknamed as ah monkeys. That's M-O-N-K-E-S.
00:39:04
Andrew Wilmot
And the control focuses on the player's hands movement. So you you'll you're like grabbing around, jumping around, gripping onto objects. And it's a game of tag. ah there's There's other modes to it, but you get the idea.
00:39:18
Andrew Wilmot
But it's become really popular amongst kids as that sort of VR third space, that VR digital space. um It's also gotten to some controversy because obviously it's got that integrated voice chat. It's that unregulated
00:39:36
Andrew Wilmot
online space. like If your kid's into Gorilla Tag and they've got voice chat enabled at some point, they're hear somebody calling them racial slurs, for instance.
00:39:47
Andrew Wilmot
And that's just the nature of playing video games online. They're going to come across somebody who is being sexually crude as part of the game. It just is what it is.
00:39:57
Bdizzle
Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.
00:39:58
Andrew Wilmot
um But yeah, so so the the game itself is... quite simple it it is as described it's it's not ah it's not a violent game it's that there's nothing content wise that's particularly like concerning in terms of mean yeah yeah it's got competitive modes and such but it's it's not it does have an in-game currency So you've got that obfuscation and that in-game currency, shiny rocks, you obtain either by logging in daily. So we've got streak mechanics there or paying for in-app purchases. So there is that element to be concerned about.
00:40:41
Andrew Wilmot
But otherwise, you know, it's it's a digital hang up space that's become very popular. So, yeah, um nine-year-old VR guerrilla tag. What's your thoughts on this?
00:40:55
Bdizzle
So is' it' it's an interesting one. I think it's this is a really weird take, but I feel like the follow-up is really important. So buying a VR headset is big investment.
00:41:07
Bdizzle
Buying a console is a big investment. What else are you doing in that space that can enrich your life? Because what, to me, Andrew, you described to me on the...
00:41:18
Bdizzle
is it isn't particularly enriching at all right you know like there's there it's not necessarily a ah pursuit of flourishing in in terms of like motor movement or anything like that and that's what that's what kind of concerns me when when you speak about these elements like sure it might be nice might But but that's maybe that's the the best way of phrasing it. is It's nice, but it's a lot of money for something nice, fleeting, short, would end up in a desk drawer somewhere.
00:41:52
Bdizzle
And and then ah that that might be the the best case scenario because what we know about VR-based environments in terms of their, and we'll do an episode on this, their digital communities, a lot of it is kind of free exploration in terms of socializing.
00:42:08
Bdizzle
And what, What basically happens on the internet if you have free exploration in terms of socializing is that you're exposed to a lot of unregulated content would be the way that I'd describe it um So ah to me, it's not a profound enough reason or rationality ah to to make that investment. And if you have the opportunities to kind of steer away from it, personally, I probably would do. um ah But um I'm not sure what you your views are, Andrew.
00:42:40
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, I think I'd completely agree. As I said, I've got a VR headset. I've had a lot of fun in it playing a number of different games, including Guerrilla Tag. And I don't know.
00:42:52
Andrew Wilmot
for For me, ah it really screams, all my friends are on it. I want to be on it too. Is that worth paying? ah Quest 3 is, what, £400 now at the moment?
00:43:03
Bdizzle
Yeah, something like that.
00:43:03
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, and then also...
00:43:03
Bdizzle
Yeah.
00:43:06
Andrew Wilmot
and I look forward to exploring more like what what is the impact of all this aggressive monetization when it's not just a screen in your hand or a screen at your desk or a screen on the TV, but you're immersed in it.
00:43:21
Bdizzle
my My honest answer, as someone who's obviously thought quite deeply in this space, is that we don't know. And I genuinely wouldn't put a bet either way where it would be more or less because the the mechanisms that are in place are so effective innately.
00:43:39
Bdizzle
It's almost like diminishing returns, all right? And I genuinely think that could be a factor. But also what that does is it pushes the question into an exploratory realm.
00:43:50
Bdizzle
where you're asking ah from a from a situation that's almost clearly bad from the limited amount of research that's being conducted currently in comparison to what will be conducted in the future. And you're basically asking that question of ah being part of an exploratory data set with something that could be malicious.
00:44:13
Bdizzle
Very, very, well, very malicious.
00:44:16
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, we, we don't know.
00:44:17
Bdizzle
as You know what I mean?
00:44:19
Andrew Wilmot
And are you willing to take your child to be part of the first generation of that experiment?
00:44:23
Bdizzle
correct and maybe we don't or we shouldn't be so open to roll that dice because what will happen just like uh the tobacco industry in like let's say the 1960s 1950s is that it can lie a lot we'll pretend it helps your cough but it causes lung cancer and i really do believe that there's a potential endpoint for this where where you do see those outcomes where like long-term salary is connected to these types of exposure.
00:44:56
Bdizzle
And i'm talking, i do this for a hobby for two hours a week. I'm talking like five, six hours a day after school type level of engagement.
00:45:03
Andrew Wilmot
Mm-hmm.
00:45:05
Bdizzle
But that's what worries me. and But I don't want to create guidelines in terms of or recommendations in terms of time lost or anything like that. I just want to foster a culture of cynicism and asking questions.
00:45:19
Bdizzle
And if those questions are answered, well, this is clearly monetized to be bad and try to extract as much attention as possible.
Conclusion & Future Topics Tease
00:45:27
Bdizzle
It probably is bad. um If you get where I'm coming from, Andrew.
00:45:32
Andrew Wilmot
Yeah, absolutely. We have gone way over time today. this I think this is our longest episode yet. So, um wow, we should probably call this.
00:45:38
Bdizzle
Thank you.
00:45:41
Andrew Wilmot
And to be fair, it's been a little while, hasn't it? We've we've both been super busy. You've been traveling for work. still, thankfully, had the time to be helping me with a lot of my research. We had our first webinar.
00:45:53
Andrew Wilmot
that That went fantastic. Thank you, everybody who who joined that. We covered a number of games on Roblox Live, demonstrating the addictive mechanics that are being used, the worrying content, and the way that Roblox recommends these games.
00:46:07
Andrew Wilmot
So let's let's finish off here. So don't forget that if you've got any questions for us or if you or your children have been impacted by the issues we've discussed today, that you can get in touch with us on our website, thedopamineslockmachine.co.uk or find us on the Dopamine Slot Machine Discussion Corner Facebook group.
00:46:23
Andrew Wilmot
All links can be found in our artist profile and we'd love to hear from you. That's all we have time for today. We'd love to have you here with us again in our next episode where we're going to be covering Snapchat, which might possibly be the worst app that you can give your child.
00:46:36
Andrew Wilmot
This has been the Dopamine Slot Machine. Thank you and see you soon.