Transcript
Speaker: You're listening to the award -winning podcast from Rutgers Law School. The power of attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
Speaker: If you've ever thought about going to law school but wondered whether you could balance it with the demands of your everyday life, This episode is for you. The path to becoming a lawyer isn't one size fits all anymore. Law schools, including Rutgers Law School, are adapting to meet the needs of students where they are.
Speaker: We are thrilled to welcome back Matt Sala. to the podcast. He is our our excellent, amazing Senior Associate Dean for Enrollment Management and Financial Aid. Um, We'll discuss a new pathway to a law degree here at Rutgers and other ways that you can position yourself toward further goals using a legal education. So Matt.
Speaker: Thanks for joining us again. Thank you for having me. We at Rutgers Law School As you know, understand that there are multiple paths to success, just as there are multiple paths up. people take to Rutgers Law School. So we have an exciting revamp. to share. It's called the Online JD Program.
Speaker: This mostly hybrid program is for those who may not be able to earn their law degree in person full time. Matt. Can you tell us a little bit more about this new option? Give us some of the details.
Speaker: Yeah, of course. So I think as you alluded to, I think one of the biggest misconceptions about legal education in general is that there's really only one way to become a lawyer. you know Traditionally, people mad either imagine quitting their jobs, coming directly from undergrad, moving to a law school, and attending classes during the day for three years. For many incredible Incredibly talented people.
Speaker: That really isn't realistic. You know, that's why I think you and I and so many of us here at Rutgers Law School are so excited about this online part -time GD program, because this isn't a...
Speaker: quote unquote, easier law degree or a different degree. It's the same exact ABA accredited JD earned by our residential students. You know, the curriculum is the same. The faculty are the same. The academic standards are the same. And the diploma is the same, saying Rutgers Law School. And really what's different is the delivery. you know In this online JD program, students attend live.
Speaker: online classes around two to three evenings each week after 6 p .m eastern time complete additional ah coursework asynchronously on their own schedule and travel to Philadelphia.
Speaker: as well as our Camden campus for these immersive long weekends, just one to three times per year. so It really allows us. and that allows people to continue working. raising families. serving in the military or fulfilling other responsibilities while pursuing a law degree from one of the nations. um leading public law schools, at least in our opinion. And to me,
Speaker: Really, that's what access looks like. The program and its purpose are very much in line with Rutgers DNA, you know our mission and our values. Absolutely. I mean, one of the reasons that that I'm so excited about the program, and it's one that you and I have talked quite a bit about, is is just that it expands access to the JD, um to a number of people who wouldn't otherwise be able to attend law school. So so very exciting. um And that sort of leads me to my next question, which is more pointedly.
Speaker: Which people should be applying to this program? Who do you think the program appeals to? Yeah, so I think the program was intentionally designed for people who's
Speaker: life circumstances make relocating or attending traditional classes difficult and that could be a number of different individuals it could be working professionals looking to advance or change their careers parents who are balancing family responsibilities members of the military or veterans individuals with significant caregiving responsibilities professionals whose employers may be supporting their education um through and to do these remission programs. So you have those who are unable to leave their current residence and or travel great distances to the nearest ABA credited law school that may be 50, 100 or more miles away from them. Or simply put, it could be for students who need greater flexibility.
Speaker: you know one thing that i think we're trying to do we shift the narrative on this question that often students have asked themselves, which is, you know, can I fit law school into my life? And for too long, I think the burden has been put upon the applicant to change their life to accommodate a degree that has not really changed a great deal in over a hundred years or so. that's yeah true you know We sit here as the world and the economy are vastly different places.
Speaker: compared to where they were in the 1900s, and even when my aunt graduated from Rutgers Law's part -time evening program in the early 2000s. With the expectations being so much higher on individuals in the workforce today, especially as they attempt to advance in their careers, we realize that students should not be questioning whether they can fit law school into their lives, but the questions should be posed back to the law schools themselves. and you know the question that we are asking us is ourselves is can rucker's law
Speaker: build a program that fits into your life while still preparing you to become a practice ready attorney. And that is exactly what we've tried to do here with our online JD program.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's fantastic. I think we can we can answer the question ah that... Yes, we've built this program to answer exactly those needs. So um no, it's really exciting.
Speaker: Where? Oop. Where can interested candidates go to find more? You know, if if we have prospective listeners out there who say, that sounds that sounds like something I'd like to check out, where do we send them?
Speaker: I was just going to forward them your email address and I figured you would take care of all the inquiries. I will answer all those individual emails, sure. know So the best place is our website where prospective students can learn about the curriculum, the admissions requirements, tuition, residency expectations, and many of our FAQs are frequently asked questions. you know We also encourage people to attend one of our virtual information sessions, which are offered once every month. They can schedule an appointment with our admissions team or simply reach out to us via phone. or email, we're always happy to help. ah One of the things I really love about our office is that we're incredibly accessible. If someone has a question, we want them to ask it. Applying to to law school is a major life decision, and we're happy to help people determine whether or not Rutgers is the right fit for them.
Speaker: Well, I can say with certainty that your office does a fantastic job of responding to those inquiries. so ah What about... What about our other? part -time program. We do have two part -time programs. ah Can you tell us a little bit more about the other program and why this one's different.
Speaker: For sure. Yeah, absolutely. We are expanding our existing options with this online JD program, but we still continue to offer the hybrid evening part -time JD program on our Newark campus specifically. You know, students...
Speaker: in this program attend classes monday through thursday after 6 p .m and in the core first year curriculum instruction takes place in person in the evenings for the first three weeks really to give students the opportunity to build community and cohesion as well as provide students the opportunity to better know the faculty the administration and each other so
Speaker: Following the third week, these classes meet in person two days a week and remotely two days a week and then afterwards we offer a variety of different classes that meet this meet in this hybrid setting they meet in person and we offer some fully remote classes as well during the evening over the course of their following three years of law school so some students tend to thrive in a classroom environment and want that face -to -face interaction every week
Speaker: others need this geographic flexibility and choose the online JD program. So both programs lead students to the same Rutgers Law degree and it's really about giving students choices rather than forcing everyone into this same educational model regardless of their life circumstances.
Speaker: Right. No, i I love that we are really ah meeting people's needs across both programs and giving students the the choice to to choose either. an a primarily in -person program or one that is primarily online. So no, I think that's great. There's something for everybody.
Speaker: Um, Now. That's not all we offer at Rutgers Law School. So can you tell us a little bit more about... Other programs like the 3 Plus 3 program or... um The, the.
Speaker: JD program for foreign trained lawyers. For sure. Yeah. One of the things that we always do here is. seeking to build multiple pathways into the legal profession. You know, as you've been mentioning, expanding access. One way in which we do this, um in addition to the ways that we've already talked about, is our three plus three program, which allows eligible undergraduate students to complete both a bachelor's degree
Speaker: and a law degree in six years instead of seven. And it's ah an incredible opportunity for motivated students to save both time and money. And we currently have this option with a number of different schools within Rutgers University, like the Schools of Arts and Sciences and the School of Criminal Justice, as well as with external partnerships with West Chester University, Rowan University, Lackawanna, and Moravian. And in addition to that, we also offer this very different program, which is a two -year accelerated JED for foreign -trained lawyers. And this is a program for attorneys who've earned a law degree outside of the United States and really want to earn an American JED in just two years and preparing them to practice in multiple different U .S. jurisdictions across the country. and
Speaker: I find this particularly to be a more attractive option for the students compared to the typical one year LLM um program that many law schools offer across the country. But this program typically only allows you to sit for the bar exam in New York or California. You know, when our graduates.
Speaker: practice across the country. They practice around the world. So we find it to be important that their law degree. not just give them flexibility, but portability as well. So our two year accelerated program for foreign trained lawyers allows them to transfer in ah around a year's worth of credits to if they want to graduate in two years if they're going full time or potentially three years if they're going part time.
Speaker: That's fantastic. so So both of those degrees, the 3 plus 3 and the JD for foreign trained lawyers, allows a student to save one year's worth of tuition. Is that correct? That's correct, yep. yep That's great.
Speaker: I know that that will appeal to a number of prospective students. um Because our so our students are savvy when they they're thinking about their level of indebtedness and the financial commitment that comes with one of these degrees. so um Okay, now I want to get down to the nitty gritty details of the process. So when someone is applying to one of these programs through Rutgers Law, what happens after they submit their application, they they press the submit button, then what?
Speaker: I think they probably pass out from sheer exhaustion. They wake up and wonder if this actually happened. And then when all of that occurs, um I think there's a lot more that happens than people realize. you know First, an applicant will receive an email just to ensure that they are aware that. Rutgers Law School received their application. From there, our admissions teams reviews every single application for complete lists and then informs the applicant if anything is missing from their application or if it's all there and ready for review. Once that process is done, they'll also get an email that informs them of that. And then we will then move their application into review, assigning it to a number of different reviewers on our admissions team and through our faculty admissions committee to engage in this holistic review process.
Speaker: so we look at a number of different factors. you know When we're evaluating candidates, you know we're looking at their personal statements, their letters of recommendation, their resumes, their addenda, their work experience, leadership, service opportunities, their writing ability as evidenced through their personal statement, their standardized test scores or academic prowess as evidenced through their undergraduate or graduate level performance. And we take all of those things into consideration when evaluating the the candidacy for admission and really asking ourselves this one central question. question about.
Speaker: Will this applicant thrive at Rutgers Law and will they contribute to our community? And I think that's a very different question than simply just asking whether someone is. capable of being successful in law school. For us, it's more about, you know, can you satisfy the the the requirements that that we have for for graduating from Marcus Law School? But also, do you have the character, the um the resilience? Do you have the other qualities that we look for that we want? out of everyone that is going to earn a Rutgers Law degree and call themselves a Rutgers Law attorney. So for us, it's so much more than just being academically successful. It's more about you know being the the type of attorney that is going to be a great ambassador for the institution and great ambassador for the profession in the years to follow.
Speaker: Right. Absolutely. and And I will say your office does a phenomenal job of identifying those qualities in our applicants and bringing in ah ah a pool of students that is just phenomenal year after year. ah Last time we talked, last time you were on the... podcast, Matt. We talked about applying to law school generally. ah So let me ask you this. Has anything changed in the last few months about the application process?
Speaker: um In terms of the process itself, there I would say there is probably... one One big thing that has probably changed over the past few years is just the competitiveness. Nationally, applicants to law school were up this past admission cycle by close to 28 % compared to two years ago.
Speaker: which equates to just under 18 ,000 more applicants to law school. um So quite a bit. And as for applications themselves, they were up almost 36%. compared to two years ago, which is an increase of over 152 ,000 more applications to law school. That is a lot more students, right?
Speaker: And we're experiencing that just the same, if not more than many other law schools, too, especially um our peer law schools in the Northeast. So at Rutgers, our applications have increased by over 44 percent over these past two years. And with volume up so much, is it has become significantly more competitive to gain admission because most schools have not been increasing the number of students they enroll. So while there are roughly the same number of spots.
Speaker: but there are way more applicants. Seats in law school are now at a premium. premium And.
Speaker: Really, outside of competitiveness, I would say the biggest change over the past few years is that applicants have become a lot more. um strategic and knowledgeable about the the law school admissions process people are researching employment outcomes they're comparing scholarship offers they're thinking carefully about debt they're asking questions about flexibility, technology, bar passage, career placement, return on investment, and they're a lot more informed. So that has really challenged, I think, law schools like Rutgers to become more transparent, more responsive, and more student -focused. And I think that's a very good development in what's been happening in sort of the admissions landscape over the past years, even since we chatted.
Speaker: Oh, I completely agree. Absolutely. No, those those student factors are really important. um Okay, what about the federal loan caps? The federal loan caps have changed the the landscape dramatically. um What? Act.
Speaker: How are you seeing that play out in admissions? Yeah, it's definitely changing conversations. For those who are unaware, new borrowers who are eligible for the direct unsubsidized loan are now capped at $50 ,000 a year, whereas before you had to have the direct unsubsidized loan and the graduate plus loan that would enable you to borrow up to the cost of attendance. So that has...
Speaker: factored in a lot more into people's decisions as to where they choose to enroll. They're thinking about total borrowing for law school. They're also thinking about the things I mentioned before, career outcomes. They're thinking about the schools and the scholarships they're providing. Do they offer loan repayment assistance programs? They're thinking about the federal public service loan forgiveness program. And rather than simply asking, can I get into law school? They're asking, can I make this investment responsibly? And that's exactly the conversation that prospective students should be having. I've said to students that It should take them longer to determine where they want to go to law school than it takes them to determine what car they want to purchase, you know, based on sheer cost alone. You know, one of one of the other things is just return on investment, but that's besides the point. so Fortunately, Rutgers has historically offered one of the strongest values in legal education. We combine relatively affordable tuition with significant scholarship support and great employment opportunities. So with these new loan caps, students have to be more cognizant than ever about not only the tuition they have to pay to a school.
Speaker: but the cost of living where they decide to attend, especially if they don't have a lot of savings. If the cost of living to go to a particular law school is roughly around $30 ,000, then in terms of federal loans that they can borrow, it's going to be... relatively little compared to what these schools are charging for tuition. So I think cost of living now is playing a major factor in a lot of students' decision as to where they enroll, which is why this online GED program that we are announcing is that much more important in meeting the moment where I think students are going to find it to be an incredibly attractive option and program that meets their needs and their budget.
Speaker: Excellent. Okay, that's great. and And can you talk to us a little bit more about um how scholarship decisions are made at Rutgers Law School?
Speaker: yeah i mean they similar to the admissions process they are awarded on a holistic basis and that's very different than how many schools tend to award scholarships a lot of institutions out there generally when they're awarding scholarships are basing it primarily upon two numbers which are your law school admissions test score in addition to your undergraduate gpa for rutgers we utilize about seven other factors when evaluating a candidate and an incoming student for for scholarship support as they come in so while academic achievement certainly matters while that standardized test certainly matters. We also evaluate leadership, work experience. service, professional accomplishments, um resilience as evidence through their writing um and what they choose to talk about in their essays, their diversity of experiences and the overall strength of their application. you know
Speaker: our goal is not simply to reward the highest numbers. Our goal is to build an outstanding incoming class and that requires looking at the entire person and being very thoughtful and intentional when awarding financial aid and scholarships to our incoming class.
Speaker: It really is a holistic review. Um, Uh. for scholarship determinations as well as admissions. uh Okay, so for students who are wondering... What?
Speaker: mistakes they want to avoid. What would you say are are some of the most common mistakes that students make when applying to law school?
Speaker: Just math skills, I would say. um In general, many people focus exclusively on the scholarship they receive and not the actual net cost. And because you know for for us, you know our tuition rates are roughly about $40 ,000 lower than most other schools for our in -state tuition and about $20 ,000 to $25 ,000 less when you're evaluating our out -of -state tuition costs. So there could be an institution that gives you a a scholarship that's $30 ,000 more than Rutgers and still be $10 ,000 to $20 ,000 more expensive. So I think for us it's often just students doing the math and evaluating not just the the scholarship they receive but also the tuition costs themselves. The other thing to take into consideration is if those scholarships that you are receiving are conditional. you know Are you required to maintain a certain GPA or class rank? Because if that does occur and you find yourself maybe not meeting that threshold, um your legal education could be a lot more expensive than when you initially you know decided to go to that school. So for Rutgers, one of the things that dean du Dean Bond did when she first started here is get rid of conditional -based scholarships. So now longer is a student's ah financial ability to attend law school tied to their academic performance. so We always say if a student makes a commitment to Rutgers, Rutgers should make a commitment to that student. That way, if they did not have the best semester or best year of their lives, maybe they were impacted for a variety of different reasons, whether that be you know an ill parent, maybe they got sick, maybe something unexpected happened that impacted their academic performance. We never want to.
Speaker: actually financially hurt any individual who then is going through a rough period in their life to then take away their scholarship and say, We're a community. We're here to support you. but good luck trying to afford law school now. So for us, I think that is a critical component that maybe not a ton of students take into consideration when they're initially applying to law school and evaluating their financial aid offers from different schools. Right, right. That's excellent advice. ah
Speaker: So we're switching gears a little bit now, Matt, but. ah We can't really talk about higher education right now without talking about the impact of AI. So so tell me a little bit about what that looks like in admissions.
Speaker: yeah i mean in admissions there's a big debate uh across different law schools across the country regarding allowing applicants to use it when they're putting together their materials some schools are very anti -ai they make you sign sort of a certification that says you didn't use it others say you can use it but you have to identify that you used it in your application for us we don't mind if you do use ai we're not going to police it because we all know the second that you tried to police something there's going to be more advanced ways and techniques of you know disguising its use and for for us we evaluate it from an equity standpoint at
Speaker: for so many years, so many law schools never asked you, hey, did you have the assistance of a pre -law advisor? Did you have the assistance of mom or dad? Did you have the assistance of your um consultant that you paid to help put together your material? So at a time when there's finally a free resource that anyone can use, regardless of their financial position in life, now we're policing it. So for us, I think we took a hard stance and on equity and we said, hey, like this is not going to be an issue if you use it, but I don't.
Speaker: particularly mind if you use it for editing or to assist with your process, so long as the information that you're providing is true and accurate to your own story. you know Moreover, you shouldn't rely upon AI to write your entire materials as it has become very easy to decipher. ai generate generated copy at the moment and that said you know we also now use and i think the biggest difference is that we use the lsat argumentative writing sample a lot more to gauge a student's true writing ability while using the personal statement and the optional statements that they may provide to understand who the applicant is and what they're passionate about
Speaker: That makes absolute sense, Matt. That's great. ah And... And what do you think are the the characteristics? ah
Speaker: in applicants that you can identify that that you think are predictive of law school success? Yeah. So for me, I think people often assume intelligence is the biggest predictor. And while, yes, it's important, um resilience may be even more important. Law school is demanding successful successful students seek help. you know We're looking for adaptation, people who can respond well to feedback, manage setbacks, stay curious. continue improving, and those characteristics matter enormously. When we're evaluating applications, we typically, I tell my entire team and those who review for me to have on one screen open the resume and the other screen their academic transcripts because we want people who can juggle, not necessarily.
Speaker: literally, but figuratively. People can you know perform well academically while also juggling other responsibilities, whether that be extracurricular involvement, whether that be individuals who um are working part -time or full -time, those who have child care or elder care responsibilities, people who are doing service. Because if you can do that, that it gives us a very good indication of your ability not just to go to class at Rutgers Law School and perform well, but your ability to be involved, to be a member of this community, to contribute to it and leave it in a better place than when you found it. it. So for us, you know those are often the biggest predictors of success, not just within one's first year of law school, but within one's career moving forward.
Speaker: that's That's great. And we are very intentional about the the community that we're creating over and over again as we as we bring new students into the community. So what you're saying makes sense. I think that really resonates. Uh.
Speaker: All right, now I'm going to put you on the spot and say. If there is one single piece of advice that listeners can take away from from this podcast episode, what do you think that would be?
Speaker: Whoo, um All right. That's a tough one. i I would say I see this often. I was just giving a tour the other day to this student um and I could tell they were very hesitant about applying to law school. They were a first generation student, as is 91 percent of our our student population. And so I guess in in speaking with her, it it makes me think about this question. And I would say my biggest piece of advice is to not spend so much time wondering whether you're good enough to apply.
Speaker: that you never actually apply. There are far too many qualified people who underestimate themselves. if you know Becoming a lawyer is something that you've you've seriously considered throughout your lifetime or even more recently.
Speaker: Give yourself the opportunity. Let us evaluate your application. don't reject yourself before we ever even have the chance to admit you potentially. Right. Don't take yourself out of the running. Absolutely. That's that's excellent advice. ah so So what...
Speaker: excites you most about this next generation of of law students or prospective law students? um I will say it's not the idea that the um the majority of applications that I'm reading right now, um the applicants are born after 2000. It makes me feel incredibly old. Both of us. Yeah. Makes my knees start aching, my back start aching. um so I would say you know when I can understand some of their phrases that they are saying, I would say the things that excite me the most are the fact that they...
Speaker: they They seem to deeply care about making a difference. They seem to be incredibly entrepreneur entrepreneurial, um technologically sophisticated. They're collaborative. They're globally collect connected in a way that wasn't. you know around or wasn't possible when we were growing up but before the era of even cell phones or you know even dial -up modems and i think they they do ask thoughtful questions they have the
Speaker: the huge benefit of having access to so many tools. They have AI, of course. They have YouTube. They have Google. They have all of these different services with all of this information at their fingertips that they know so much more and can ask more poignant questions um that I think get at the root of what they're trying to to know. And I think they aren't satisfied with...
Speaker: you know because we've always done it this way this is how we have to do it and those are exactly the kinds of future lawyers our profession genuinely needs at this moment Right. I could not agree with you more Okay, now. This is the fun part. We're going to wrap up with a series of rapid fire questions. So most overrated application myth. Go.
Speaker: Uh, one bad semester will ruin your chances of getting into law school. Okay. Great. Most underrated application component.
Speaker: ah Without a doubt, the personal statement. It's often the first opportunity we have to meet the person behind the numbers. Alright. Excellent. ah Biggest surprise. for first -year law students.
Speaker: At Rutgers Law School? Yes. Let's say at Rutgers Law School. I would say genuinely, and this is because a testament to the admissions team of what we try to do, how supportive the environment actually is. like People expect this like fierce, competitive environment. And instead, they often discover classmates who they become lifelong friends friends with. And sometimes they even become partners in the future.
Speaker: Right. Oh yeah. We've seen that. We've seen that for sure. Okay. One word that describes the strongest applicants.
Speaker: Authentic. Excellent. If you could sit down with every prospective law student for two minutes before they applied, what...
Speaker: Would you tell them? What advice would you give them? Let me go home to my wife. No, I would say... I'm done reading applications. I would say... Moscow! isn't simply about becoming a lawyer. It's about...
Speaker: expanding the ways you can make an impact on your community on the and on the world. the The legal profession touches virtually every industry and every community, whether your passion is business, healthcare, care technology, criminal justice, social justice, public service, entrepreneurship, sports, entertainment, or environmental policy, there is a place for you in the law.
Speaker: know don't compare your journey to someone else's. There is no single quote -unquote perfect applicant. Some students come straight from college while others arrive after military service, raising children, starting businesses, teaching, or pursuing entirely different careers multiple times over. And I think those experiences aren't detours. their strengths.
Speaker: Focus, I would say, on presenting the most authentic version of yourself. Be thoughtful, be reflective, and don't be afraid to let your story shine through. You know, numbers, of course, matter, but they never tell the whole story. You know, character, resilience, curiosity, and purpose matter just as much. And I would say...
Speaker: Remember that when choosing a law school, it isn't just about where you'll spend the next three or four years of your life, either in person in a hybrid format or online. It's really about. finding a community that will support your growth.
Speaker: I will. challenge you intellectually and open doors throughout your career. And. visit the campuses ask questions talk to students and alumni and choose a place where you find yourself not just thriving but or i would say surviving but also thriving
Speaker: Right. No, it's one of the things I hear over and over again when I go out into the community and talk to our alumni. They talk about the strength of the community that they they've built and been a part of during law school. and And they still have those connections. They still have those ties to to their classmates who have become colleagues. and you know to whom they refer work or receive referrals. and And it's that alumni community that is also really strong. It is, I think, a continuation of of the community that we build within our student body. So I definitely see that.
Speaker: Okay. Last question, anything else you would like to add? Um... I would say you know,
Speaker: Legal education is evolving, and that's a good thing. yeah The profession needs talented people from every background, every community, and every stage of life. Whether you're 22 years old and graduating from college or 42 years old and changing careers, raising a family, or balancing a full -time job, there may be a pathway to law school that fits your life. And now here at Rutgers, we've really intentionally created multiple pathways because we believe know talent is universal, even if opportunity always isn't. and our responsibility as educators, as administrators is to
Speaker: really remove unnecessary barriers while maintaining the highest academic standards. And if you ever thought about becoming a lawyer, I encourage you not to dismiss that dream because your path doesn't have to look like someone else's. So reach out to to us, to the admissions office, ask questions, explore your options, and you may discover that.
Speaker: law school is more accessible than you ever imagined and that Your own unique experiences are exactly what will make you an outstanding lawyer and a great law student. Well said, Matt. Well said. No, that's excellent. Thank you so much for joining us today. i I enjoy talking to you every single time, and I know our listeners learn a great deal about the admissions process. so Thank you again.
Speaker: I appreciate it. Thanks so much, Limbang. Take care. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. with two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia.
Speaker: Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting us at law dot rutkers dot
