Transcript
Speaker: Today's episode is a rebroadcast of a previously recorded episode of the podcast.
Speaker: You're listening to the award -winning podcast from Rutgers Law School. The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and Dean of the Law School, Joanna Bond.
Speaker: On today's episode, I'm joined by Judge Stephen M. Orlovsky. Judge Orlovsky is a lawyer, a former judge of the U .S. District Court for the District of New Jersey. and a former nominee to be a United States Circuit Court judge. of the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit.
Speaker: Prior to attending law school, Judge Orlovsky served in the Army during Vietnam, after which he came here to Rutgers. He graduated in 1974 from the Camden campus of Rutgers Law School and is a proud and active alum.
Speaker: Without further ado, here's my conversation with Judge Stephen Orlovsky.
Speaker: Welcome again, Judge. We're going to begin with a... a question that we ask many of our guests. Will you please share with us your origin story? Good morning, Jeanvon. It's a pleasure. Good morning. see you again and speak with you.
Speaker: I was born on June 24th, 19... 44. in the south bron in the South Bronx in a hospital. called Bronx Hospital which no longer exists. According to my mother,
Speaker: It was the hottest day. ever. that was before climate change. Thank you very much. reached us.
Speaker: When I was born, I was premature and I had some breathing problems and in those days But. Hmm. doctors didn't have available to them. all the technology and science that they have now to treat.
Speaker: premature baby, so For a while, it was touch and go. and Finally. The doctor said, He's going to be okay. of this this guy is a tough kid. And my mother said,
Speaker: She said, and my mother said when she heard that, I didn't realize how tough. it was going to be. Um. Yeah. In any event, um I grew up in the South Bronx, went to public in elementary schools.
Speaker: went to Um. i first Actually, I first became interested in the law. In the fifth or sixth grade, believe it or not, There was some smattering of the Federalist papers.
Speaker: And I... you know I was very intrigued by them. And. I came home that day. i was a I was 11, 12 years old. I said to my mother, I said, you know um I think I want to become a lawyer. And she said,
Speaker: Oh, Stephen, you're not smart enough to be a lawyer. No, in any event. Okay, mom. I think you've proven her wrong. In any event.
Speaker: Um, Ultimately, um I Went to Stuyvesant High School. which was a special one of three special schools. in New York City for which you had to take a test. um And I think. at Stuyvesant High School, although he went on.
Speaker: to college and law school. I think I at Stuyvesant High School. I had in my class some of the brightest people. in the world um when We were juniors, I guess, 15 or 16.
Speaker: we took the s SAT tests. and My homeroom class I think had 16 boys in it. Stuyvesant was not co -ed. At that time, it was all boys. It became co -ed.
Speaker: in the 1980s. And nine of them got... Perfect score, 1600. And I got it. I got a 1575. like That's pretty darn close. And my mother said...
Speaker: What are you, the dummy of the class? what did you get more It sounds like she was kind of tough on you. Yeah, well, she was. So in any event. I said, Mom, they don't tell you what you're getting wrong. What? It turned out.
Speaker: Um, Of the nine who got perfect scores, One ultimately won the Nobel Prize in Physics. And we ultimately won the Nobel Prize. in chemistry.
Speaker: Amazing. I went on. from Stuyvesant High School. on to, uh... By the way, Stuyvesant High Schools. graduation was traditionally held in Carnegie Hall.
Speaker: And our... or a teacher one of our teachers says He says, I want you to remember what I'm about to tell you. And what's that? He says, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Of course, we had no. No idea what he was talking about.
Speaker: He said, Practice. Words to live by. That's great, Judge. In any event, I went on I went on to City College, at City College of New York, which at the time was pretty tough to get into. It was still tuition free and it was in those days.
Speaker: was not open admissions and it was pretty Pretty competitive to get in. I got in there. I got in. I majored in political science. Um. Ultimately, when i graduated, I was between I was thinking about law school, but I hadn't gotten.
Speaker: I hadn't gotten into, I hadn't. been admitted to law school. And so my student deferment expired. in 19 the end of 1965, 1966.
Speaker: And accordingly, I got drafted. what was happening is President Johnson. had made a decision to send 30 ,000 men a month. to Vietnam, but hasn't bothered to tell any of us.
Speaker: And so ultimately, I entered the Army in... January 1966 went to basic training. and advanced individual training.
Speaker: in at Fort Hood. and Killeen, Texas quite a place. um and um Bye.
Speaker: When I was assigned in advanced individual training, to an artillery battery and They were training me in what was called the Fire Direction Center. In the field artillery, there are three elements. there's a Look. a person called a forward observer who's out there with the infantry.
Speaker: calling in targets to the Fire Direction Center. who then plot the targets on map. maps and call the the commands down to the guns. and the battery commander of that of that AIT battery was a young captain by the name of Jimmy Dean Mount. I'll never forget him. He was a West Point graduate.
Speaker: He was just back. From Vietnam when he came in to see me one day And he said, congratulations Orlovsky. You're going. to OCS. I said, I am.
Speaker: I said, Captain, i don't I don't remember applying for that. He said, I applied for you, I said. I guess I'm going to FCS. That's great. and For the listeners who may not be familiar, will you tell everyone what OCS is?
Speaker: OCS is Officer Candidate School. So I i attended. the United States Army artillery, and missile school, officer candidate school.
Speaker: at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. which is in Lawton, Oklahoma. This was a six -month program, and it was pretty demanding.
Speaker: both physically and intellectually. You have to understand that before I went into the army, I had never fired a rifle or pistol. Not to mention a howitzer. I didn't know what a howitzer was.
Speaker: And. They were training us, essentially. Tchu! learn how to fire howitzers to provide artillery fire so it was a pretty demanding program. both physically and intellectually.
Speaker: um and um I graduated in December 17, 1966. Our class was commissioned.
Speaker: and my best friend and OCS classmate. a guy by the name of Pinky Durham. That's right, his name was Pinky. Um. He got that name. When he was born at the hospital, they didn't have any blue blankets.
Speaker: so they gave him a pink blanket and so he became Pinky. And I never knew. his real name. It was just people. He was just Pinky Durham.
Speaker: A real character he is. He grew up. in Tifton, Georgia. He had never been further north. of than Tifton, Georgia, and I'd never been further south. than the South Bronx.
Speaker: and we became brothers. um Then, you know The war ensued, unfortunately. um Pinky was killed in Vietnam.
Speaker: on October 17, 1967. Ten months to go. after we graduated. and he was awarded the Congressional Medal. of honor posthumously.
Speaker: Um. In those days, we didn't have texts or emails. And so. I never found out that he had been killed until Probably 1969.
Speaker: Um. And I was just, you know, I was just. devastated. Um, I don't know if I've shared this with you, but Pinky Dorm's photograph and the citation.
Speaker: which accompanied his Medal of Honor. hangs on the wall of my office. End. Whenever I think I'm having a bad day I go read the citation. I recommend to you and anyone else that You google Google Pinky's name.
Speaker: and read the citation. that accompanied his Medal of Honor. In any event. I got out of the army in March of. 1970.
Speaker: and I started thinking about law school. looking at law schools. and I applied to a couple. And he discovered them. a law school I hadn't really heard of before called Rutgers Law School.
Speaker: on I was familiar with Rutgers University, but I didn't. then we'd have a law school. And it was. somewhere are in a place called Camden, New Jersey. least I had never been before.
Speaker: Um, Do you mind? You probably had that experience. yourself. Yes, yes, absolutely. So tell us a little bit more about... about why you. ultimately chose Rutgers. Well, it was interesting. I'd applied to a couple of others Columbia.
Speaker: Yeah, oh. And. While I got in... The prices were astronomical. They were really, you know. even with financial aid and I was thinking, you know, really?
Speaker: you know And I was just getting out of the army. I really didn't have any. any assets. any And so I went down. to visit. The law school. Um.
Speaker: This was... Just before they moved into the new, what? what was then the new building, now the old building. um The law school had been functioning out of some essentially a warehouse, a Campbell.
Speaker: soup warehouse somewhere. in the city of Camden. but i went down and i visited and i said ah i looked at the city of camden and i was wow you know, It was great. It was quite a shocker.
Speaker: And. I had. I asked to talk to, you know, an interview with just to talk to somebody about it. and um
Speaker: I interviewed with a Professor Don Kepner. Don Kepner was quite a character. he I ultimately had him for similar procedure.
Speaker: um And. federal courts. And he was a real character. and So I met him and He told me, he says, look.
Speaker: Next year we're moving into a brand new building. This is not where you're going to go to law school. And he talked to me about. He talked to me about the law school. He said, look, this is This law school is starting to grow, which is going to be great someday.
Speaker: this will be a great opportunity etc etc and the other thing that was very attractive is that the tuition was much more reasonable. than any place else. and You know, I said.
Speaker: Why not? So ultimately, I uh... I accepted. Rutgers and I began at Rutgers.
Speaker: in September 1971. Now, my... my First day of law school is probably different. than the first day of law school. of most law students. Um,
Speaker: It was September 1971. um The first day of law school. I wore my Army field jacket. And. a bunch of us, I guess, you know first year law students.
Speaker: or milling about on the outside. the outside that what was then the new law school building. And some Some guy I'd never seen before in my life.
Speaker: Came up to me looked at my field jacket and said, Oh. You're one of those baby killers. well Um.
Speaker: That did not resonate with me, so to speak. and um i was still in pretty good shape in those days and i'd even boxed in college and then I hit him with a right cross.
Speaker: He went down like a stone. And I said, I don't kill babies. but I do kill assholes. hu I love that story. I've heard you tell it before, Judge, and I love it every single time. So you have to tell us what happened after that. Well, two significant things happened after that.
Speaker: First, as I'm walking away, from hitting this guy. I'm thinking to myself, This is probably not the best way to start law school. Fair. That's fair enough.
Speaker: About three days later, i was I was in, I think, my con law class, and I was wearing my Army field jacket. and a very um attractive. young blonde woman came up to me, looked at my field jacket,
Speaker: And she said, Oh. Welcome home. Thank you for your service. My name is Charlotte Cole. Charlotte and I were married three years later. That's such a great story. Charlotte?
Speaker: was the first one. to welcome me home. but I wasn't done. with my first day of law school. In those days, we didn't have text or email. so people would leave messages on the bulletin board.
Speaker: and everybody would check the bulletin board every day to see you know if there were any messages. So one day I checked the bulletin board and sure enough, There's a message that says, Mr. Orlovsky. Dean Fairbanks would like to see you in his office.
Speaker: tomorrow. i say Oh, oh. Dean Fairbanks was the dean of the law school. Right. Heavy. I'm thinking, well, I'm gonna get thrown out of law school.
Speaker: So the next day I go up to Dean Fairbanks's office I'm still wearing my Army field jacket. He's sitting behind his desk in a three -piece suit. and sitting there on a couch,
Speaker: in his office. is the guy I hit. Tid for your banks. looks at me. And he says, Captain Orlovsky. Your colleague over there tells me you assaulted him.
Speaker: I said, yes, sir, I did. And if he calls me baby killer again. I'm going to assault him again. Thanks. smiled, looked at me,
Speaker: looked at the guy on the couch, he said, you're excused. Please leave and close the door. Not to you, but to the other guy. Right. Yes. Okay. And he says,
Speaker: Then he says to me, Orlovsky. You probably don't know this, but I commanded an infantry company. of the 82nd Airborne. in World War II. I'm still in the reserves.
Speaker: and i'm two -store general. He said, and I called the Department of the Army about you. And you have a distinguished military record. And if you would come home in my war,
Speaker: People would be shaking your hand. and buy you drinks. And. He said, look. if anybody bothers you again. Don't. Please don't hit them.
Speaker: Juan Sime. I'll take care of it. Then I look at him. Okay, I said but What about him? pointing to the door and the guy who had just left. He looked at me. He winked.
Speaker: And he said, who? And that would be it. That was it. No. I'm not going to ask you what you would have done. Right. dean when I came into your office, because I have a feeling the result might have been a little different. But we don't have to we don't have to go into what you would have done. Fair. That's fair enough. But I'm i'm thrilled that Dean Fairbanks handled it the way that he did and that... We...
Speaker: and can now claim you as one of our most esteemed graduates. so ah We're thrilled that you stayed. And, and. What was it? It turned out. You know, it was still, I guess, in those days, of the early 70s.
Speaker: Rutgers Law School. Obviously, it hadn't been It hadn't been combined with Rutgers Law School in Newark. But it was still a growing law school. and Um.
Speaker: The legal education was great. The faculty was... was great. um you know, I had some great I had some great teachers. Um. And...
Speaker: Um. i You know, there were some subjects that... they're really interested in me. Con law, criminal law. Um. federal jurisdiction and those and those sorts of things and it really It really opened my eyes.
Speaker: to the world of law. No. I really didn't know anything. No one in my family had ever been a lawyer. I'd never worked at a law firm. I didn't know what lawyers did. And you know, I was impressed by the tremendous diversity of activities that lawyers engaged in.
Speaker: And another great thing happened. My third year... At those at that time, Um. The law school had an internship. your program. And I had applied.
Speaker: for an internship to Clark for the then Chief Judge of the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey. Chief Judge Mitchell Cohn. to be an intern. in those in those days internship programs.
Speaker: We're just starting out, really. There were internship programs with judges. legal services. and all sorts of public agencies. And so and you had an interview for this.
Speaker: And I interviewed. and my my one of my classmates. I was a class of 74, he was a class of...
Speaker: 73, Joel Rosen. Cool. became my best friend and ultimately my magistrate judge. was then clerking. for Judge Cohen. And...
Speaker: if If you were to ask Joel what happened. He will tell you, yeah. Steve came in, he interviewed the judge. Steve blew the interview. But I told the judge that. He should overlook that and he should take them on.
Speaker: As you do. So he takes credit. He takes credit for everything. Right, right. The day I was sworn in as a federal judge. He took credit for that too. It's nice to have good friends like that.
Speaker: So anyway, so... in in interning for Judge Cohn was I mean, you know Just think about it. I'm a young law student. I'm not even out of law school. I'm clerking for a federal judge, not just a federal judge with the chief judge of a district.
Speaker: And Judge Cohn was an incredible guy. he was a a great judge. He had been a trial lawyer. He had been a ah county prosecutor. Um, and He was just a wonderful guy.
Speaker: a sort of a renaissance man Um, Somehow he became He had a... Thank you. grade school friend. who was producing a show called My Fair Lady.
Speaker: and Judge Cohn. invested in it. and suddenly became very wealthy. Sure. That's a wise investment, I would say. Well,
Speaker: As a judge. How did you know to do that? She said, Steve. You just have to know. the right people. And I met Herb Levin, who was the producer, in the fourth grade.
Speaker: And I figured I could trust them. Yeah. That's fantastic. so So after I, click as I was. um Clerking, I applied for a job with the United States Attorney's Office.
Speaker: in Newark. and i Jonathan Goldstein was a U .S. attorney. And he offered me a job as an AUSA. to begin when I finished my my clerkship. And this was, ah you know. And in those days,
Speaker: This was a great opportunity. especially if you wanted to become a lot you know a I uh... a trial lawyer and the United States Attorney's Office with the District of New Jersey had a long and storied history.
Speaker: Um, I won't go into its history today, but it was much different. back then. and then So... and I was finishing my clerkship and one day George Cone came into the law library.
Speaker: and said, Steve, you're not going. to the US Attorney's Office. Said I'm not. This is known. I have another job for you. I said, what's that, Judge? He says, you're going to be the first magistrate judge.
Speaker: in Camden. I should. judge. I haven't practiced law at all. he says He said, Steve, it's okay. You're smarter than anybody else we're going to find.
Speaker: You watch me. You know what to do. Bye. And... you have with your military experience. Um, You'll have no trouble doing this. Nice. And in those days,
Speaker: uh magistrates were selected by majority vote. of the district judges. Okay, and I said well Well, what would the judges say? And I'll never forget what Judge Cohn. said to me and in this deep deep voice of his He said, quote, My dear boy.
Speaker: I have the votes. Close quote. ah but That's great. I'm sure he he obviously did. He knew what he was talking about. And he recognized talent. So he... So today, you know after a couple of years, the Magistrates Act was amended.
Speaker: And you could know you to now you have to be admitted at least 10 years. the court has to advertise. There's a committee that interviews applicants and it's so much different. So it could never happen.
Speaker: like that today. So I went from law clerk to magistrate judge. And then... Eventually into private practice at Blank Room, correct? So we're talking about into private practice.
Speaker: I had three children at the time. and Joel. Joe, who claims he got me jobs everywhere. claim. was then an associate.
Speaker: at blank room Comiskey Macaulay. in Philadelphia. And I was talking to him one day and I said, Joel, you know, I've got three kids. I've got to find a real job. um And Joel said,
Speaker: Ed Rome, who was the... one of the founding partners of Blank Room, had appeared before me, believe it or not, on a motion. And that was an incredible experience for me. I mean it was like Who is this guy? I mean, really? He was such a talented lawyer that he left that impression.
Speaker: one of the 25 best lawyers in the history of the republic. That's so good. So, um Why don't you, he said, Steve, why don't you call? ja Ed Rome. He was very impressed with you.
Speaker: And I won't tell them what an asshole you are. That's good. So... So... So, and actually I, you know.
Speaker: I interviewed with Ed Jerome, he ultimately me ultimately hired me and I joined Langrome in its Philadelphia office. We didn't have a New Jersey office then. in 1980. in something called He didn't We had...
Speaker: Practice groups were about 10 or 15 years away. for law firms. But Ed had formed his own practice group. He called it complex litigation and it consisted. mostly of securities and antitrust cases. a lot of class actions.
Speaker: So I essentially became his, you know, his lawyer. um and he He would always say to me, Stephen. Don't tell me what I can't do.
Speaker: Tell me what I can do. And... you know And that became... you know That became ingrained in me. Um, Ultimately,
Speaker: In 1984, Blanchrome It opened its own office under its own name. in New Jersey. Prior to that under the New Jersey Rules of Professional Conduct Every lawyer whose name was in a law firm name had to be admitted in New Jersey.
Speaker: And Ed Rome and Marvin Comiskey were not interested in taking the New Jersey Bar Exam. But now we blank room could practice under that name. provided they designated a New Jersey responsible lawyer.
Speaker: And they picked me. to be the New Jersey responsible lawyer. So I came over to... New Jersey, with blank Roman, opened its office. and first office in New Jersey.
Speaker: in 1984. and practiced in It was pretty active. trial practice. It was um both civil and criminal.
Speaker: Um. And it was a pretty active. practitioner. And. One day in... just in 1995.
Speaker: Bill Clinton had been elected president in on 1992. And the vacancy occurred. Let me just record. And one day I got a call from Senator Frank Lautenberg, whom I didn't know.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: He said, I heard a lot about you. How'd you like to be a federal judge? I said, I'd like that very much, Senator. so Bye. He interviewed me and it was it was pretty competitive.
Speaker: Um, That's probably an understatement, Judge. What what made it difficult was um most most people don't realize this but people who have who are have been active either active politically.
Speaker: or have made significant political donations. usually get Serious. consideration. I hadn't been active politically and I certainly had not made any significant political donations but Um,
Speaker: What happened is I had um When I had been a magistrate judge, I worked for the then chief judge. Chief Judge John F. Gary. George Gehring was a Princeton graduate,
Speaker: and he went to the Harvard Law School. He was really bright really funny and he was into baseball and he Um, He had had a tryout with the New York Giants.
Speaker: as a left handed pitcher. It didn't go well. And. In fact, as he was pitching, of the all the hitters aligned hit line drives off the wall at the pole grounds.
Speaker: and he got the name Boom Boom Gary. thereafter. So he was known as Boom, boom, Carrie. Oh, no. So... Uh, so Did you bond over baseball?
Speaker: I'm sorry? Did you bond over baseball? um you know And I was his magistrate judge. And, you know, we got to we got to work. We got to work together and you know we were very close. and Um, So Senator Lautenberg was doing his due diligence.
Speaker: And he called. George Gerry about me. And George Gerry,
Speaker: must have been very persuasive. In any event. um Judge Gary became ill. unfortunately. and was dying of cancer.
Speaker: And his wife Jean called me one day. in the office and she said, Steve. Come out to the house. Jack wants to see you. So I'll go out to Judge Gary's house in Moorestown.
Speaker: And she says, Steve, he's upstairs in the bedroom. Go up and see him. It's okay. So I go up. to see him. And he's literally on his deathbed, and he looks at me. And.
Speaker: He says, Steve. I had a call today from Senator Lautenberg about you. I'm sorry. But I had to tell him the truth. Okay. So then he says...
Speaker: Then he says,
Speaker: Do you think? You can fill my shoe.
Speaker: And what did you say? so i you I was speechless. First of all, he's dying. And he's doing shtick. Right. Ciao, Giles. I said, nobody can ever fill your shoe, but I'll do my best.
Speaker: And then he said a classic line that has followed me. From that day to this. Said Steve. The thing about being a judge is You have to be yourself.
Speaker: Unless you're a jackass. Steve. You're going to have to be somebody else.
Speaker: All right. I don't want our listeners to believe that any of that is true. You are a wonderful, wonderful person. So, another so and incredible coincidences.
Speaker: In the 1980s, I had a partner in Philadelphia. by the name of Neil Steinman, who came into my office one day. and this says mid -1980s, And Steve, I need you to write a check.
Speaker: for $1 ,000 to Bill Clinton for governor of Arkansas. And I said, Neil. We are sitting in Philadelphia. Why am I writing a check?
Speaker: to somebody who's running for governor of Arkansas. And Neil says to me, Bill Clinton was in my law school class. at Yale.
Speaker: And he's going to be president of the United States someday. and he's going to nominate you to the federal. bench. I said. Yeah, right, Neil. Sure enough, The president calls you when they nominate you.
Speaker: Mm -hmm and So President Clinton got on the phone with me. And I'd never met him. And he was a very chatty guy. And he says, Steve.
Speaker: I want to nominate you to the United States District Court of the District of New Jersey. He said, Neil Steinman wants me to nominate you to the Court of Appeals. But I think we should take this one step at a time.
Speaker: He was giving you a tryout. sure I agree, Mr. President. You said good. I will submit your nomination to the Senate. so I went through the... you know I went through the nomination process.
Speaker: Now we'd all read about written in the Constitution how. presidents. nominate federal judges with the advice of consent of the Senate. but it is quite a present. a process the united states Senate.
Speaker: consists of 100 separate kingdoms. Right. Right. So... um Anyway... Um, that i I was nominated. I was confirmed.
Speaker: a hundred to nothing when I told my dear wife charlotte gall of blessed memory Then I was confirmed 100 to nothing. She said, well, they don't know you as well as I do.
Speaker: I'm glad you had people in your life, Judge, to keep you humble. Charlotte did that it sounds like. charlottes Charlotte, would tell everybody. It was her job to keep me humble. And unfortunately, she did too good a job of it.
Speaker: Yes, I believe that. I believe that. And... And so. How long were you on the bench then? Okay, so I went on the bench on... This morning on February 5th, 19...
Speaker: ninety six And I left. August 1. 2003. Let me tell you a little bit about my experience as a district judge. I had some interesting cases.
Speaker: Um. One of the first cases I had, which and And, you know, You have a lot of cases. i mean the the docket We were short judges in those days. and the docket was amazing.
Speaker: And so there was a heavy... criminal uh load and One of the first cases I had, one of the first criminal cases, involved. a guy by the name of Michael Norwood.
Speaker: who was charged with bank robbery, and carjacking. Carjacking was then a new statute. It had just been enacted by Congress. as a result of essentially carjackings.
Speaker: throughout the country and there was no federal statute. that criminalize that conduct. So... The Norwood case is assigned to me and and um it involves the carjacking statute which had never been tried by any judge before in the District of New Jersey.
Speaker: and it presented He was represented by the Federal Public Defender's Office. He was African American. And. his lawyer wanted to present expert testimonial. a lot of the testimony involved.
Speaker: identification of Norwood. as the bank robber. She wanted to print present expert testimony. on the issue of cross racial identification.
Speaker: That is the discrepancies. and witness identification of of Caucasians identifying African Americans. Right. Um,
Speaker: That had never... That had never been done before. Obviously, it involved an application of the Daubert Principles. And so I wrote an opinion.
Speaker: Um. granting her motion to allow oh expert. testimony on the issue of cross racial identification. Wow. That's fantastic. That must have established important precedent in New Jersey. and Ultimately,
Speaker: A couple years later, I was asked to sit by designation. on the Third Circuit with Chief Judge Becker and Judge Roth. And we had... a carjacking case.
Speaker: And since I... had had experience judging. Becker said, well, Jane and I don't know anything about this carjacking statute. You do. You write the opinion.
Speaker: So I got to write an opinion in the Third Circuit. on core jack Fantastic. One of the other cases that was was interesting that I'll mention briefly.
Speaker: was a case involving the construction of a cement plant. in the city of Camden. and a group of South Jersey residents.
Speaker: known as the South. Camden Citizens in Action. Broad. in action against the New Jersey Department of environmental protection. based on Um,
Speaker: violation of the EPA's Title VI. environmental justice. regulations. And after much... argument and briefing.
Speaker: I wrote. about 150 page opinion. Um.
Speaker: granting the injunction sought. to pre prevent the opening of the cement plant. employing a cause of action on the EPA's Title VI regulations.
Speaker: about Two weeks after I filed that opinion, The United States Supreme Court, Justice. Scalia in a 5 -4 decision in a case called Alexander V.
Speaker: Send a phone. overruled 30 years of civil rights jurisprudence. and said you could no longer Um. bring implied cause of actions.
Speaker: based on federal regulations. well However, there was a dissent. by Justice Stevens in that case. where Justice Stevens said, well, it doesn't matter really because This claim thing can be brought under the civil rights statute.
Speaker: 28 USC Section 1983. so um
Speaker: I bring the lawyers back in. I obviously have to vacate the injunction. And I ask them to brief the question. of whether Oui. South Jersey Citizens in Action can amend their complaint.
Speaker: to assert. this claim under 1983. So another round of briefing. And ultimately I read write a second opinion. finding that the claim can be asserted under and to civil rights action.
Speaker: But it's the right statute. Because Justice Stevenson opened the door for that. Right. so naturally the case goes So naturally the case goes up to the third circle.
Speaker: And. Um. I'm ultimately reversed 2 to 1. It was a descent. one descent and if The majority of opinion was written.
Speaker: by Judge Morton Greenberg.
Speaker: So I called him. I said morning, morning. You've got this all wrong. Did you read the record?
Speaker: I love it. And had he? And he said, of course. Steve, you are exercising executive power, not judicial power, blah, blah, blah. He said, you're a great judge, bud.
Speaker: You got this one wrong. A couple years later, Pres... ah Judge Greenberg takes senior status. judge judge Judge Greenberg takes senior status.
Speaker: which creates a vacancy on the Third Circuit. and President Clinton nominates me. to fill the vacancy. So I called Morty, I said, Uh huh. The President has nominated me to fill your Your seat, Noreen.
Speaker: He says, congratulations. I said, yeah, the president called me. He said, we're trading up.
Speaker: That's great. That's great. Did he appreciate that? Did he have a sense of humor? he did Oh, good. He did. Unfortunately, um it was too close to the 19...
Speaker: Um. the 2000 presidential election. And so I never got a hearing. and the nomination died in committee. but That is clearly our loss.
Speaker: so But at the time, Judge Rosen, of course, captured the essence of the episode. in one sentence and circulated an email to the court and said,
Speaker: if Orlovsky is elevated to the Third Circuit. it will raise the average IQ of both courts. I love it. I love it. That's fantastic.
Speaker: So ultimately, I decided... And of had I stayed, I probably would have been nominated again to the Third Circuit. But my docket had become overwhelmed by drug cases. i mean possession and distribution of CDS.
Speaker: and fell in in possession of a firearm. And I just decided that. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life doing that And so I went back. to blank room. Now, my partners at Blank Room will tell you that they took me back into the partnership. by an equally divided vote.
Speaker: And so I went back to. Went back to blank room, went back to... um its New Jersey office, which was then then in Sherry Hill and resume the practice and ah and also developed an alternative dispute resolution resolution practice.
Speaker: involving arbitrations and mediations and I'm now working on developing an appellate practice. with them. Judge Lewis, who was on the who had been on the who was a judge on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals.
Speaker: And so we are actively building. and appellate practice. We have a practice group. although we'd all done a lot of appeals, we never formalized it. into a practice group and now we have.
Speaker: That's wonderful. I want to talk about the importance of of appellate practice in a moment, but... ah In the meantime, I want to ask you about your favorite part of the job. What what do you enjoy most about?
Speaker: about the work that you're doing now. Well... Um... I've always loved... trying cases, but unfortunately we don't try too many cases anymore. For lots of reasons. It's too expensive.
Speaker: Um, many now because of the availability of alternative dispute. resolutions, a lot of cases. get tried in arbitration or get settled. in mediation. uh but trying in case was always.
Speaker: a fun part of the job. I was always... It was always an experience. that I loved But I also enjoy... I also enjoy arguing appeals.
Speaker: Um, both in state and federal court. and in and doing and in doing mediations, trying you know trying to settle you know, Usually the cases I mediate. or involve issues where there's a lot at stake.
Speaker: Right. um and And the same is true. with arbitrations. and you know And the thing about arbitrations is, people to decide to go to arbitration.
Speaker: can do what is essentially legal judge shopping. they can pick you know, the arbitrator. now the The disadvantages or that is Discovery is limited in arbitrations.
Speaker: And there's essentially no appeal. Right. But it it's... It's convenient. It's faster. It's... cheaper. And, you know.
Speaker: clients who want a quick decision are willing to you know, give up limited give up limited discovery or give up discovery and and give up the right to appeal. for for a quick resolution.
Speaker: Mm -hmm. Well, I can understand it must be gratifying to bring those cases to resolution as ah as a mediator arbitrator. ah One of the things... That. I want to ask you about... has to do with. Um,
Speaker: A trip that you took. to Iraq back in 2003 with two other federal judges on a mission to help. Iraqis who supported the U .S. during the second Gulf War. And.
Speaker: And i want to I want to ask you about the details of that trip because... In my mind, it just demonstrates... um your your humanity in so many ways. But but so let me tell you how that came about. Yeah, let let's delve into that.
Speaker: Um... Obviously, the Second Gulf War was ongoing. And I guess in. Morch. or April of 2003.
Speaker: I got a call from Chief George Becker of the Third Circuit, who was a friend of mine. Who said Steve? you know, We want to send the... been talking to the highest levels of or government.
Speaker: which to me meant he was talking to Senator Arlen Specter, who was a law school classmate of his at Yale. And I said, really, what did Arlen have to say? any He said, We want to send a delegation.
Speaker: of judges to Iraq. to examine the courts and make recommendations. to get the courts up and running after the war. And we'd like to send...
Speaker: you, you'd be perfect with your military background. And I sit. So, Good. Are they sending any Republicans?
Speaker: Are you? I'll get back to you. So... I go home and I... tell Charlotte about it, and she knew. She knew Ed Rom. I said, Ed Rom called me today. She said,
Speaker: What did he want? So I told her. he says You're not going. Don't be ridiculous. Thank you. Look. We have 150 ,000 troops.
Speaker: This is for them. It's going to be a lot harder. to make peace than to make war. So over her objection, I went. and there was There were two other federal judges who We're part of the group.
Speaker: plus a bunch of um public defend federal public defenders. and AUSAs. And the goal was, although it wasn't clear, at the time was to visit the courts, inspect the courts,
Speaker: and then make recommendations Two. you know do it Then it was called the... the coalition governing authority. about how to reorganize the...
Speaker: of Rocky Courts. Now the Iraqi courts at the time were civil courts modeled after the French and Egyptian models they didn't have.
Speaker: didn't have jury trials, they didn't have common law was statutory. It was basically such statutory law. And in Iraq, it had a... it had what was called what is called Sharia law, which is religious law which governs the relationships between men and women.
Speaker: and marriage. And you know, the grounds for divorce. which is completely different. you know, essentially women in Iraq had no rights. But anyway, so...
Speaker: we we When we got there, we... organized into three separate groups. one group to visit, nor the courthouses. in northern Iraq, one in central Iraq.
Speaker: in northern and southern Iraq. Now I needed an interpreter and I had a young Iraqi female. attorney I guess she was between 25 and 30.
Speaker: to serve as my interpreter. um Now, She would have to travel with us, so she had to get... permission from her father to travel with us without an escort.
Speaker: Judge Rosen. Said her father will never agree when he finds out about your reputation. What? But in any event, she did. And she traveled with us. and Um,
Speaker: They were, you know. many of the Iraqis had not gotten president Bush's message about. miss mission accomplished. And so... um um There was a lot of what I call insurgent action. there were snipers and all kinds of things.
Speaker: Um. And so she traveled around us, traveled with us. to visit various courthouses. Um. both as an interpreter and also to provide some insight into the you know, the Iraqi judicial system which was which was essentially under Saddam.
Speaker: completely corrupt. it was you know you know so So ultimately, it became so dangerous. that that the they decided to pull us out. We originally were supposed to be there for about three months. but By July 4th, it had become pretty dangerous and they decided to withdraw us.
Speaker: When I got home around July 4, 2003. I got a... an email from Faughton. who had been my interpreter.
Speaker: that because she and her brother's head cooperated with us. Someone one came looking for them. They were not home. So they murdered her father.
Speaker: Ugh. awful. Terrifying. So I said, Vaughton, don't worry. In September, I will be practicing law again. And we will find a way.
Speaker: to get you out. So I went back into private practice at Blank Room. in September September of 2003 and among other things. I became...
Speaker: an immigration lawyer. my experience with the Mine is. as a district judge. had not been a happy or happy one. the INS generally.
Speaker: New one word, no. to everything. mm -hmm But in any event. So my partners and I began this effort to get them out. And it took us six years We got fartin'.
Speaker: her two brothers, her mother. and two sisters out. and they're all American citizens. Now, finally came to the United States. We got our job as a paralegal in blank rooms.
Speaker: Philadelphia office. and Her brother Bassam who had a master's degree. in computer science. We got him a job. in our Philadelphia office is.
Speaker: in our IT department. ah but Bassan was very interested in in in the law. So he applied to Rutgers Law School, to the Knight School.
Speaker: He got in. He was admitted. And when he graduated, Dean dean Solomon, one of your Predecessors called me and said, So Bassam is graduating.
Speaker: I want you to come to the graduation. and present him with his diploma. Wow. I want everybody to hear this story. So. That is so inspiring, Judge.
Speaker: and And again, i you know I think it reflects so much about you and your your sense of humanity and your commitment to public service. but ah I... I just love that story. and and hearing about the lengths that you went to to try in and...
Speaker: get this family. out and and to safety is is really an inspiration. Um, So I want to ask a little bit about...
Speaker: The Memorial Scholarship. that you established in honor of your late wife. It's the Charlotte. Kay Gall Endowed Memorial Scholarship. And it is, as I mentioned, in honor of your your wife, your late wife of 46 years. ah whom You mentioned you met at...
Speaker: law school, at Rutgers Law School. ah Can you tell us? what the scholarship means to you and and why you established it. in Charlotte's name. when Charlotte went to Rutgers.
Speaker: she was receiving financial assistance. and She was the class of 74. was a class that had the largest population of female law students I think.
Speaker: 45%. of my class was was female, which was very unusual at the time. remarkable for that time. And... Um...
Speaker: So she had financial assistance, and obviously. you know She went through, I think I've told you, As a young lawyer, she... and broke through a lot of glasses blood a lot of glass ceilings, had to deal with a lot of...
Speaker: you know, female anti -female discrimination. Oh. not just but from lawyers, but from the bench. particularly from the bench. In fact, she became the first female assistant county prosecutor.
Speaker: in Camden County. and The bench was all white, all male. And. very unhospitable. Come in. She was cool. Honey, sweetie, girly.
Speaker: prosecute tricks. wow And it was tough. I'm sure you can appreciate it. Yes, absolutely. and you know I decided, you know. she She had been the beneficiary of financials.
Speaker: assistants when she went to law school and I thought That a fitting tribute. would be to... As -salamu alaykum. It was cool. establish a scholarship in her name.
Speaker: to provide financial assistance. to female law students at Rutgers Camden. And that that's really the... but basis on the reason for it. It's remarkable. and And I'm so glad that you're... I chose to honor her in that way.
Speaker: Um, I want to talk about another. recent gift that you've given to the law school. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to give back to Rutgers. ah but But recently, you established the Stephen M. Orlovsky Endowed Appellate Advocacy Fund.
Speaker: at Rutgers Law. can you Can you tell us a little bit about what motivated you to so to start? That fund. Two things. It was first. to give back to Rutgers.
Speaker: what it gave to me. Life and all.
Speaker: Those of us who are returning, as veterans. We're not welcome to. There were no parades.
Speaker: Dean Fairbanks.
Speaker: Woohoo! Welcome me back. in his own way. Right. You know, I've had a great. legal education. that gave me the opportunity to go on to become a federal judge.
Speaker: practice law. honor major national law firm. at a high level And none of that would have happened. But for Rutgers.
Speaker: That's the first reason The second reason is given the situation in which our country finds us. It's more important than ever. to defend and protect the Constitution.
Speaker: and the rule of law than ever. And more than ever, That happens in appellate courts. Trial courts are very important. and Rutgers and many law schools.
Speaker: have very active trial advocacy programs. and they should continue to do that. but it's becoming more important. to those of us in the practice. how important.
Speaker: the pillar of advocacy is. Many clients now insist. in important trials. to have appellate lawyers involved in the trial process. to make sure that issues that issues are preserved for appeal.
Speaker: And that. you know, then if they can't win in the trial court. that they have an opportunity. to prevail. in the appellate court. And the other thing is... you know,
Speaker: Our country is approach approaching its... 250th anniversary. and for years and years.
Speaker: The judicial, the Supreme Court, the judicial branch. as the third branch. of our government has been viewed. as the jewel in the crown of our democracy. That has been called into question recently.
Speaker: Now over the years, the Supreme Court. as handed down some brilliant decisions. and some horrible decisions. We can begin with Marbury versus Madison. We can talk about Dreadstock.
Speaker: we can talk about Plessy v. Ferguson. we can talk about. Brown versus Board of Education. Gideon v. Wainwright. Please. Miranda case.
Speaker: You've read the cases that have come down from the Supreme Court. We now have a new concept to deal with. called the shadow docket. which is another. challenge. for appellate advocates.
Speaker: So it's more important than over. to train our lawyers. about. appellate advocacy. advocacy and get lawyers. to specialize in appellate advocacy, just as they specialize in trial practice or patent law.
Speaker: or whatever. law. interests them. And i just so think I just think that... The time is right and it's important. And Rutgers. has the tools to do it.
Speaker: and I have complete confidence And you, Dean Bond, that you will manage this. program and make a success out of it. Well, thank you so much, Judge, for for saying that and for your confidence in me. I...
Speaker: I'm thrilled that we're going to be able to build upon our existing appellate advocacy program and expand and and improve. the skills training that we're offering to students, because as you said, this is one of the most essential skills for lawyers and, and we. We want to be training them. um to to have a huge impact on the law in all the ways that that you and I have talked about. um It matters more now than ever.
Speaker: ah So I'm thrilled and I so appreciate your your generosity. towards Rutgers Law. I want to. I want to end. Bye. Asking you.
Speaker: What advice you would give to students who... aspire to pursue a career in law? what What advice would you give? at bottom.
Speaker: I became a lawyer. because I wanted to make a difference. in the lives of people. And I have. What would that say? judge and as a lawyer.
Speaker: and even her as even as a former. military officer. and the law is gives you a vehicle and an opportunity. to do that. It doesn't matter.
Speaker: what your political affiliation is. what your view of certain issues is. If you become a lawyer, will give you the skills. to advocate and promote.
Speaker: Whatever policy. is important. to support whatever group. whether it be political, racial ethnic. religious. important to you.
Speaker: because What differentiates us? our country. from the rest of the world. is the rule of law. And that is why.
Speaker: I urge people. to consider. Aloha as a prophet. Wow. Well said, Judge. You and I are kindred spirits in that way. That is exactly what drew me to to law school as well. This notion that that law... was a way to have it. a positive impact on the world.
Speaker: up. So thank you so much for those comments. and And thank you again for appearing with us today and for sharing your wisdom. and and for sharing the details about your incredibly distinguished career. As I said before, we are so lucky to to call you one of our alumni and um and I really appreciate everything that you have done and continue to do for Rutgers Law School. Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me. It was my pleasure. Take care, Judge. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. with two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia.
Speaker: Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting us at law dot rutkers dot
