Transcript
Speaker: Hello everybody and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solus. I'm Gavin Matthews and I'm basking here in the hot Scottish sunshine, which is quite an unusual thing today, and sneezing my way through the hay fever season as well. I am joined at the other end of the country by my co-host Simon Wenham. Simon, how are you today?
Speaker: I'm very well, thank you. How are you? Yeah, yeah, not bad. As I say, might interrupt today's broadcast with sneezing and blowing because the pollen is sky high today. But apart from that, we're we're all good.
Speaker: I'm also looking forward today to turning the tables on our guest, Graham Albans, because we met once before, Graham, when I was the guest on your podcast that you present for the Kessick Convention. So welcome, Graeme. How are you today?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm fine, thank you. But I think basically this whole British Isles is utterly drenched in scorching hot sunshine. So I think Scotland, it's not like wildly unusual for the rest of us that you'd be getting some sunshine out there because this whole, I think, Northern Hemisphere is just getting a bit too much, if anything.
Speaker: Well, I grew up near London and I moved to Scotland because London was too hot. and it's top of me it Well, was quote what do you get up to? Apart from we mentioned that you do this, the podcast for the Keswick Convention, which a lot of our listeners will will know about.
Speaker: What else do you get up to? ah Me and my wife are down here in Bedford. We've got three kids and we're serving our local church here that we've been here for about 15 years. I've been working for the church for about six as a director of missions and outreach.
Speaker: And yeah, I absolutely love it. And when I'm not doing stuff there, I'm either coaching our son's football team or watching England lose in the World Cup or... ah Yeah, out and about for a run or something like that. So, um yeah, we we keep busy. I think, to honest with you, most of our social life is dictated around the kids' social lives, and that's about it. So, ah yeah, that's us.
Speaker: You're also an author, having recently published the book, How One Weekend Can Give You Everything You Ever Wanted, which does sound like an overambitious plug for a retreat. what What is that about? is It's a wildly ambitious, taste' it's too ambitious and you're very kind to call it a book. It's more of a leaflet, really. is that It's that short and um for such a grand title with so few pages. Yeah, it was it came out in Easter 2025 and it's about the Easter weekend and how the cross and resurrection really can meet the felt needs of every human being that we are hardwired with. ah that Jesus himself is the thing that we've been ah all of us ever wanting, all of us ever needing, all of us ever missing. and and So that was the the premise of this very short book with a very grand title.
Speaker: but Well, a central theme of your book is that everyone is searching for something that might be relationships, success, possessions, experiences, or whatever. and Why is identifying that specifically helpful for evangelism?
Speaker: Yeah, look, it's in the time that I've been doing my job, I haven't had someone walk through the church doors going, please, please give me the answers to the historical resurrection. Please, please tell me about the ah Old Testament symbolism when Jesus died on the cross. now No one's come asking me those questions, first and foremost.
Speaker: The kinds of things that people have come to church wondering about is I've just not got a lot of sense of meaning, right? or purpose or or hope. There seems to be a ah ah lack of joy in my life. Those are the things that people...
Speaker: really feel in their everyday lives every day, whether that's someone walking through the door of church or someone that you just know at work or in your team or whatever it is. um so the the idea was that can we can we touch on those real felt needs of something missing in life and bring people to the place of the the cross and the resurrection and and the person of of Jesus? My observation is that in years gone by particularly with preaching we explain the cross and the resurrection and then much later on maybe try and apply it to and this is why you can feel hope and purpose and significance i just wanted to experiment with flipping that and saying you experience these things don't you now let me draw you onwards to the cross and resurrection and And like I say, it it really is it really is a short book. It was made as ah as a giveaway at Easter. So ah it with it being short, you can't do everything um that you perhaps want to or say everything you want to say, but it was designed as a as a giveaway to equip churches and Christians. This is what I think 10 of those do quite quite well, in my opinion, is is try to resource ordinary Christians and ordinary churches to to pass something on that's that's short, readable,
Speaker: to equip people who aren't the professional evangelists ah to be able to just pass something on to someone who might be interested. So that was sort of the ethos behind the approach to the book.
Speaker: It seems as like a shift almost from apologetics pitched to the head to apologetics pitched to the heart. and And I wonder if that's something that is of of the cultural moment, like you're saying, and people wandering into churches with these kind of questions. Do you think there is more of a spiritual openness at the moment than than we've seen before? um I mean, some of the big surveys are suggesting a new spiritual openness amongst young people. Are you meeting people regularly that are coming with these kind of heartfelt questions?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, i hear a lot of podcasts where people say, yeah, it's amazing. We're seeing like 53 young men every Sunday morning come through. the like We're not seeing those sorts of numbers, but something is happening. I think when the title kind of Quiet Revival ah came out, was like, well, let's see if this is revival, but but but certainly quiet openness.
Speaker: I think openness, Gavin, the word you use there is absolutely right. I think... People sat in front of us on a Sunday morning when were preaching, for example, are less and less kind of the hard-nosed skeptics.
Speaker: ah People coming on our Explore course, for example, are less there with really kind of um almost angry skeptical questions, ah in in our experience anyway. I mean, it's probably different for others in other cities, and but are coming less with the real skeptic disbelief objections and more like I want to believe questions.
Speaker: ah We're meeting more people say, i kind of want to believe in the thing that I sort of have in the background. People who perhaps had church, in the background of their childhood, or there's been a family member gone by who has you know they've known as a Christian, granddad prayed for me by my bedside. It's something that and my friend Leo came to church saying, and but the only Christian in my life was my granddad. all i The last time I remember feeling really content was when he would read Bible stories at bedtime to me and pray for me. Now, as a sidebar, let that be a massive encouragement for any grandparents listening.
Speaker: ah You may not see the fruit of your prayers and investment in your grandchildren. And yet he comes through the door, not saying, now please give me all the historical evidence for the resurrection. He comes saying, how can I find...
Speaker: a real tangible belief in this thing that i've kind of got in the background. So yeah, I think we're dealing with the wants to believes rather than the, I don't believes at the moment.
Speaker: more interesting Yeah, that's wonderful. And it's a, it's a reminder we had Mark Greenwood on recently on the show and he was talking about how um evangelism is ah is a journey. And of course people may not be at at a particular point. It's not all about becoming a Christian straight away, but often, as you say, it could be a grandparent praying. And then much later on you, you remember that. And, I suppose if if we're talking about desires, what what would you say to someone who says, actually, I'm pretty satisfied by life. you know i i have a nice family life. I have income. I'm getting my personal best on Strava or whatever it is that gives them- a sense of well-being. and That's long passed from myself. I'm certainly getting no personal best on anything. But yeah, what what would you say to, i mean, are you are you tapping into a dissatisfaction or or or are you, or or yeah, what would you say to those that might say, actually, no, I'm totally fine.
Speaker: Yeah. And let's not kid ourselves. Not every one of our friends and colleagues is walking around saying, oh, I've just got this real big Jesus shaped hole in my heart. Like, no, of course not.
Speaker: You know, some of my friends who aren't Christians are super content with their lives and their incomes and their jobs. And they get a lot of satisfaction from ah being parents and husbands and and wives and all, you know, let's not kid ourselves into thinking that suddenly the nation is swept with this existential crisis. I i do think that that's a thing. I do think that's a kind of ah an underlying, the meaning crisis is real.
Speaker: ah But it that they it's difficult, isn't it? Because as friends and relatives, colleagues, neighbors, it's not particularly loving to try and go, yeah but are you really satisfied?
Speaker: You know, yeah, but... And then every conversation you have, just trying to poke away at their contentment in life. Now, I don't think that's particularly relational, but I think two things... I'm quite heavy on the relational evangelism. And so in that regard, two things. One is how can I as a Christian demonstrate a deep sense of peace and purpose and meaning that over time displays something to that friend who is pretty happy with their life?
Speaker: okay And the second thing is, Just wait, just wait. Like stick in there in the long term with your friends because sadly, the chances are The job will be removed from them. The relationship will crack. The children will leave. the You know,
Speaker: yeah you you pray hard and you stick in there with people. I was then talking to an older couple from our church. They yeah were... Their they're mechanic actually ah was working on their car and they had the same mechanic for years and years and years. And every time the mechanic came around, they'd always step outside with a cup of tea for them and they just chat for a few minutes.
Speaker: And then ah and ah no particular openings for gospel conversations, no uptake in the invite to church or whatever event or whatever.
Speaker: One day they were outside having a chat. The car was being fixed by the mechanic and the mechanic looked at this older member of our church and said, see that house over there?
Speaker: My wife is having an affair with the man who lives just there.
Speaker: Oh, and what do you say to that other than, I'm so sorry. Can I pray for you? Would you mind if my wife and I've held you in our prayers? We,
Speaker: So sorry, come on do you want to talk about that? want comment in Do you want to come inside for for just your next tea break and talk about that? the The mechanic ended up accepting an invite to church and you fast forward a few decades and that mechanic is now serving on teams in our church as a Jesus loving Christian leading his home group in his own lounge.
Speaker: And for me, that's a beautiful illustration of how people people's lives might be all together. ah And yet sticking in there with people over the long term, ah praying for them.
Speaker: that that you know The underlying thing of praying for your friends and family, even when life is great for them, and then offering to pray for them when life is not great for them, that communicates a a love and a depth of of peace that you have in their life, that you have in your life, which is probably untapped in theirs.
Speaker: Sorry for the long answer, but it's because I think relational evangelism is a long answer. i think it is a long solution. Yeah. Yeah. Part of that so seems to me that discontented Christians are an anti-apologetic for the gospel then.
Speaker: And our churches seem to me to be full of people, sometimes myself, confess, ah discontented Christians who chase after the wrong things for contentment. What can you say about our own spiritual life and how that needs to fuel our witness and evangelism in the light of this apologetic for contenting Christ that you've laid out in the book?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. You know, ah ah heard Stephen Bartlett on the day of the CEO say to John Lennox, you know, I think the best evidence for the Christian faith is...
Speaker: you, John Lennox, the way you are, the way you come across, the sort of sense of peace that you have, I think we are what Wes Huff, I think, described as the fifth gospel. You've Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, then you've got Gavin Matthews and Simon Wenham, you know, and you, my my listening friend, you know, ah you are the fifth testament to the reality of Jesus. And so the way you are ah demonstrates something to those who are in your life.
Speaker: yeah Now, the problem with that is when I personally get angry and discontent and display a severe lack of peace and joy in my life. Now, yeah I think there's something, a lot to be said for authenticity.
Speaker: I am authentically me around my closest friends who are not Christians. And so I think of my friend Lewin, who I go for a run with every Monday morning, ah not a believer, very much atheist, but sort of interested in spirituality. Now, we will share a lot of life together. We talk about everything. So he actually sees me at my best and my worst. And he knows the times and he's heard me vent about the times when I've been cross about something or or jealous about something.
Speaker: Those aren't fantastically Christian ah ah characteristics. And yet he sees an authenticity in me that's not just veneer. Everything is awesome.
Speaker: However, alongside that authenticity then is the authenticity of my contentment. So Lewin... is obsessive about fitness.
Speaker: He cannot understand why I will not join at the gym or i can't understand why I will not train seven days a week. He can't understand why, but it's because authentically, and he's like, Graham, you could have this body, but you just don't want it enough.
Speaker: And I've come to the point where like, no, Luwin, I don't want it enough. And the reason for that is, it's I don't use these words, but it's not my idol. The fitness is not my idol. My body is not my idol. Thank goodness for that, because it'll be nobody's worshipping this body. But it he needs to see that.
Speaker: he He needs to see, and he will see over time, and he is seeing over time, that that something that he holds as absolute, to chase after. It's just's just not, it's just not for me. I don't want it enough. What do I want enough? Well, I want my spiritual health to be in check. I want my marriage to be in check. I want serving the church to take priority over being at the gym. You know, I'm not saying physical training is of no value to quote Paul.
Speaker: However, The authenticity of seeing in me at my best and my worst means that, yeah, he sees me. and And then when I do get it wrong, he sees me asking for forgiveness. um And you can't show that unless you're getting it wrong. you know yeah So authentic, long-term walks with people where your relationship with Jesus is actually making a difference to your life is probably good. and Fantastic. Yeah, that's a wonderful reminder, isn't it? Of of just, as you say, the long-term walking with people.
Speaker: Just a quick reminder that Andy Bannister's book, How to Talk About Jesus Without Looking Like an Idiot, is helping loads of Christians all over the country to get a bit better at sharing their faith. It's packed full of terrible jokes and wonderful wisdom to help you just get a bit more able to share your faith in Jesus with friends, colleagues, neighbours and family members. If you'd like to get a copy, come over to our website, solas-cpc.org and follow the links from there.
Speaker: And now, back to the programme. and What would you say to someone who would then be actually thinking, oh, my goodness, I'm the Fifth Testament. This is not a good good sign. You know, i I thought to be an evangelist, actually, you had to you had to have good arguments. You have to be a ah kind of a particular type of person is an evangelist. And that's not me. What would you say to someone like that?
Speaker: Yeah, look not not everyone is evangelist. Which is a terrible thing to say on the Pep Talk podcast. But not everyone is an evangelist. um If by evangelist do you mean someone who speaks regularly, who hands out tracts on the trains, who has some sort of public ministry and well-crafted tongue.
Speaker: Yeah, no, not everyone is evangelist. but I think Acts, particularly the end of Acts chapter two, I love, shows that everyone can be evangelistic.
Speaker: So what happens at the end of Acts chapter two? You've got some people with a public ministry and proclamation, but you've got a load of people in each other's homes. You've got a load of people practicing ordinary hospitality, breaking bread together, going to church together, inviting onlookers in. There'd have been an onlooking community and numbers and numbers were added to them.
Speaker: to the believers ah because there was radically ordinary hospitality going on and just Christian witness lived out over the long term alongside the public proclamation of the gospel.
Speaker: So if your vision of being an evangelist is someone who speaks a lot, then no, not everyone is gifted and called in that way. But everyone can be evangelistic in the way that I use my social connections, in the way that I use my home, just in the way that I think about the people around me. You know, I'm looking out of my window right now.
Speaker: I can see ah the houses and I know the neighbors by name. I should have been probably more intentional this summer with who I invited over to watch the World Cup games. ah thinking about the school run.
Speaker: Do I leave even just five to 10 minutes of margin just to have some sort of conversation that isn't just high and by? ah You know, i have a lot of people in our church say, well, all my friends are Christians.
Speaker: To which I want to say, they might not be actually. Think a little bit wider. If you have a brick wall separating your house from another house, you are connected in some way to someone who's who's not a Christian. Think a little bit wider circles.
Speaker: ah The people in your in your workplace. Now, I know the workplace is a hard one. I know this from first-hand experience. The workplace is a hard one, particularly post-COVID, where everyone's doing stuff on Zoom and in the home.
Speaker: And I also know that any amount of conversation is limited, let alone any sort of deeper meaningfuls. and But you you are connected to people who aren't Christians. And therefore, what we said a few minutes ago was everyone can pray.
Speaker: Prayer is a crucial part of the mission. We say, again, start of Acts. Prayer came before proclamation. So prayer is crucial. Paul talks about it a lot in the letters as well. Pray for me. Everyone can be praying.
Speaker: And that is very, very missional. And then want to say, well, are the people that you're connected with even aware that they are connected with a Christian? The Evangelical Alliance did the Finding Jesus survey, which I think is due for a refresh. And it came out as something like roughly 50% of non-believers in our country are not connected to a Christian friend.
Speaker: That's wild. We need to make a dent in that. I think the sad news of that statistic is probably that they are connected with a Christian. They just don't know about it.
Speaker: Chances are, if if you have a team of, say, 15 people at work, chances are 14 of them are connected to a Christian. They know personally a Christian, but they don't realize they do.
Speaker: Why? Because we've never mentioned it. Yeah. And so we we at our church talk about lowering the bar. And so even as we talk about our life, ah you know, how's your weekend? Well, hopefully, if you're living authentically with people and you're going to church, church will be part of the answer to how was your weekend. Oh, OK.
Speaker: I didn't know you went to church. Yeah, i do. Fine. You are not here to explain all the implications of the atonement. You are here to say, i went to church. we it was It was good. we We prayed about that local thing that happened in the news, which is really sad. How did you find that?
Speaker: yeah Fine. Now that person who didn't realize they were connected with a Christian now realizes. and So they know where to go to in the future when those moments come up where, hey, this thing's happening and it sucks.
Speaker: Or, hey, I'm going through this thing. How come it is that you seem to find some sort of contentment even when these redundancies are coming up? no Yeah, so I think we need to make we need to make a chip in that 50% of the people who don't think they know a Christian.
Speaker: and Tim Keller says that people are most evangelistically effective within the first six months of coming to Christ because they're still really connected to the world. But then what happens after that is the church gets hold of them and funnels them into rotas in the church. Is there something that pastors like yourself and other church leaders need to do to funnel people back out into the world and stop trapping Christians within the functions of church to keep the program in-house running? What's our responsibility in in church leaders to do that?
Speaker: I think that's a really good point. i ah Yeah, think it's a really good point. The over-churchification of church people can lead to, accidentally,
Speaker: ah sucking all of their social time out of their calendars. I do think there's something very Christ-like that we're called to in serving the the body of Christ, the local church. so I wouldn't say cancel all meetings and rotas.
Speaker: true ah But I do think there's something on that. I think when you said the people are most evangelistically effective in the first six months, might be more to do with the fact that, oh my goodness, I ah found this field and it had a treasure in it. There was a pearl inside.
Speaker: I cannot, this pearl can be mine. this The treasure can be mine. ah People need to know about this. I'm sometimes jealous. Having been a Christian a few more years than six months, i I'm sometimes jealous of new converts because they have this kind of excitement and joy of salvation that perhaps for those of us ah who have been Christians much longer need to recapture both the joy and the urgency.
Speaker: So perhaps for some of my new convert friends, they understand, oh hang on, I like what you're saying. I believe what you're saying. I've accepted what you're saying. But if I do, what does that mean for my non-believing girlfriend or mom or uncle?
Speaker: The urgency of the gospel means you got to get back out there. Got to get back out there. That's definitely my favorite word today, over-churchification. That's ah's a great one. and You mentioned joy there. Do you have any advice for sort of conversations, how we can really convey that in ah in a meaningful way? Obviously, you're you're talking about longings that people have.
Speaker: And as you say, we can sometimes grow cold and not appreciate some of that side of things as as people who've been Christian along a longer period. do you Do you have any advice on, sort of practical advice on conversations that we can have in relation to people in general, trying to bring out some of that and helping people to realize that?
Speaker: Yeah, joy is not happiness. You know, there's a real difference. Happiness goes up and down like the crashing waves of the surf in Cornwall.
Speaker: Joy is the deep, deep ocean underneath the crashing waves, isn't it? So your happiness can be up and down and all over the place, affected by the sunshine in Scotland or a chocolate bar or someone said something mean to me.
Speaker: and it now it's back back down or someone gave me some honest feedback about a talk on Sunday and now I'm not happy enough, you know. But joy, joy is much, much deeper and lasting.
Speaker: So how do you convey that to a watching world? I think it's authenticity, isn't it? So I would say on one level, Yes, your general demeanor. like Not everyone is the same character type. Not everyone is extrovert. But, hey, smile.
Speaker: You know? Hey, Christian, if your heart is is is finding any sort of joy in the Lord, maybe tell tell your face. ah There is a sense by which the manner, the warmth in which we engage people in conversation says something about what's going on in our hearts.
Speaker: Again, authenticity is key, but... Is there ah just a ah friendly warmth to the way we're talking to people? And is there a way that we can explain that deeper contentment despite life's up and down circumstances? Is there a way even that I can articulate the crashing waves, deep ocean analogy to my friends when they see in my life things aren't working out for me?
Speaker: Because as a Christian, it doesn't guarantee that the redundancies don't come and the kids don't fail and all that sort of stuff. I still need to be able to articulate to my friend the difference. Yeah, I'm actually really sad right now.
Speaker: but My parents are ill. um but did this This argument that we've had, that whatever it is, I am genuinely sad. I have tears. I weep over this thing. My happiness has up and left.
Speaker: And yet there is a deeper thing going on that I, i you know, I can't explain. There is a piece that, I don't know, transcends understanding. So i'm I'm afraid I can't give you too many, much more words than that.
Speaker: But let me tell you, it's much deeper. And my experience of it, I can't convey in words, you've got to step into it It would be like trying to say what it's like. to to try this glass of wine.
Speaker: I can explain to you what's written on the label. I can tell you what I'm tasting, but that's not the same as you tasting it for yourself. You've got to taste and see.
Speaker: The only way you're going to have that experience is if if you pick up the glass and If you walk through the door, I can't tell you what it's like to live in my house. You can come and experience it. And so my non-Christian friend, come and you're you're not going understand this deeper joy and contentment that I have unless you maybe perhaps come and step into it, taste and see.
Speaker: Absolutely. Fantastic. I just want to say thank you and so much, Graham. It's just hugely encouraging hearing what you're saying and and, as you say, trying to tap into that greater openness that people can have. And I love that some of those points that you made, that we can all pray.
Speaker: um We may not be evangelists, but we can be evangelistic. It's that sort of mindset, lowering the bar of what we're trying to do, but being relational and there for people in the long term. So I love the point about authenticity as well and and the sort of helping people to see that peace that transcends all understanding. But that doesn't mean that things always are going amazingly for us as well. So and even when times is hard, but that's that's part of the point, isn't it that That God gives us this deeper sense of purpose and joy, irrespective of some of the ah ups and downs of life that affect us and of course those around us. so and So thank you so much for being with us, Graham. And thank you all for listening to and do tune in in a couple of weeks for another inspiring guest on Pet Talk.
Speaker: Bye.
