Transcript
Speaker: Hello everybody and as that sort of jaunty whistling theme tune fades into the background it's pep talk time again. We are here for 20 or 25 minutes talking as ever about evangelism and the task of sharing the gospel today. I'm Gavin Matthews from Solus and joining me is my co-host from the other end of the country Simon Wenham. Simon how are you?
Speaker: I'm very well, thanks. are you doing? Good. What are you to today? Apart from recording Pep Talk, obviously. <unk> We're recording this during summer, so I'm starting to look forward to a summer break. But other than that, and work as normal, but I'm enjoying looking forward to this conversation that we're about to have.
Speaker: We're approaching, I think, 200 episodes of Pep Talk. not quite there yet, but we set this up about 2019 and we thought, well, we might run for five or 10 episodes and 30 or 40 people might listen. And now approaching 200 episodes and so many people listening around the country to all these different people that have come on and talked about how they share the gospel and about how we relate the gospel to different groups and different people. It's been fascinating over the last sort what are 170, 180 episodes out But those of you who listen, we're really grateful to you. Without any listeners, there'd be no point doing this at all. So for those you there who listen, this is great. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker: How would you like to shape the next 100 or so episodes? Are there things that we haven't discussed? Are there people groups who need the gospel that we've not talked about? Or are there brilliant missionary sort of endeavors and enterprises that you're aware in your community, and you've thought, oh, that would be great on Pep Talk? Well, we would love to hear what you think. We'd love to have... your voice in shaping where we go with it next. So go across to the SOLUS website, solus-cpc.org, click the contact button and tell us what you think. That would be really, really helpful. But on with today's programme, because we've got another brilliant guest this week. Joining us from the south coast of England, we've got Andrew Bundt. Andrew, how are you?
Speaker: I'm good, thank you. Now, you work for an organization known to many of our listeners called Living Out, which deals with the whole area of the church and areas of sexuality and gender. And your title within that organization, I misread at first, because it said content director, which I misread as content director, as if all the other directors on the page were the discontented director. tell me, what is content director?
Speaker: what is a Content director, what what's your job? That is, I want to change. I want to be now the content director. That's now my kind of aspiration in life. ah No, content director. So a big part of what we do is producing content of huge kind of variety of forms to resource and equip churches and Christians and others more broadly as well. And so our website is a big part of what we do, which is basically a big free resource library, quite a substantial resource library now on the topics of sexuality, gender, identity from a Christian perspective. And so I'm kind of responsible for commissioning content, editing content, getting all that up there. But also we're starting to think, how do we expand what we're doing on social media and kind of thinking, how do we take good, hopefully helpful content on these topics to where people are? So not just bringing people to us on website, but increasingly, I think actually to resource people and to reach out to people, Christians and non, we need to go to where people are. So also I'm beginning to help us think bit about what's it like to do other forms of content going out onto social media and other kind of platforms as well.
Speaker: You're also an author, aren't you? You've put up several books. and And part of what you've written about, or most what you've written about in the past, has been around sort of those core areas do with living out of sexual ethics and gender identity. But your new book, Getting God's Perspective, shifts across to talking about worldviews. So why have you made that shift to doing a book about sort of analyzing the way people think and worldviews and how people approach life? Hmm.
Speaker: Well, it has kind of flown from doing the ministry around sexuality and gender, and particularly the observation that as I and others have been teaching on these topics a lot, engaging with both Christians and non-Christians on them, so often the questions people raise about Christian teaching on sexuality and gender, the objections they raise, more and more I've realized so often they're not actually about sexuality and gender, they're about much deeper level, more fundamental things, about worldview things. So, so often objections and questions, whether from Christians or non-Christians, the conversation is about sexuality and gender, but actually you realize to have the conversation, what's really going on here is we have a fundamentally different view on something like authority or on freedom or on progress.
Speaker: And I think actually that needs to be thought about. I think as as many Christians who need to be equipped in their own understanding of worldviews, but also as we as Christians have a better understanding of worldviews, what they are, how they work, different worldviews around us, that I think can really help us in our conversations with other people.
Speaker: because often you're not going to have a very productive conversation with someone who's not a follower of Jesus about sexuality or gender and Christian teaching on it. But if you can start with those topics and actually move down to a conversation about freedom or about identity, i think often you have a much more fruitful evangelistic conversation, helping people see the goodness of Christian teaching, helping people see why it could be so good for them and exploring why it's better and why it's true. And so it's kind of ah zooming out a bit from the other things I've written of the ministry I've done we've seen actually this is what needs to underpin it all and often I think it is a bit lacking but also I think it can really equip us as we're seeking to engage in a world where loads of people do think really differently on those topics but actually that's because they think so differently at the deeper level of worldviews as well
Speaker: Fantastic. could you Could you say a little bit more about that? So there may be some people who are thinking you did say a little bit about authority, etc. Some people might say, actually, I don't really have a worldview or um or at least I'm not aware of what mine is. Can you say something about why it's helpful just for us to sort of step ah one one step back almost in those kinds of conversations we might have, particularly with non-believers?
Speaker: Yeah, well, I think you've hit on it exactly there is the fact that we all have a worldview. Maybe we don't realize it and don't think about it. So your your worldview being your kind of your most fundamental foundational set of beliefs, which literally forms the foundation of all your thinking, and all your living. Or sometimes I use the illustration of set of glasses, I wear glasses, ah very much need my glasses, the world is very fuzzy and blurry without them.
Speaker: a worldview is not like glasses, your eyes, but glasses of your mind, everything you All of how you interpret the world, how you experience the world, how you think and live in the world is shaped by that. But lots of people don't think about that.
Speaker: And so actually thinking about worldviews is helpful for us to think actually shine the light on what's there for us, but also to begin to spot almost what's there for other people or begin to help them to spot that. which actually is where engagement with those who aren't followers of Jesus is where, as I kind of partly said, I guess the most fundamental differences lie. And so it is actually obviously often the obvious differences between what we as Christians believe and think, and what those who don't follow Jesus believe and think they're kind of up here that we're above the surface, but actually the more obvious,
Speaker: often more profitable conversations can come on the deeper things and the things people are more maybe even intrigued to think about. Actually, you're telling me there's a better way for me to experience true freedom in my life. Or you're telling me actually there's ah a different vision of the future which could really change how i experience the present.
Speaker: That I think just suddenly becomes appealing to people and kind of intriguing to people. and So I think there's so much gooding That shining the light and the deeper thing, thinking that way, even if people aren't aware of their worldview, because I think it often is intriguing for people. Often it's just stuff that's a bit less controversial. So it takes some heat out of our conversations, which means they can be more profitable because actually have proper engagement rather than just everyone's emotions being very heightened and being very...
Speaker: difficult and kind of um ah kind of a conflict. And also I think often many of these key worldview foundations are great kind of angles through which to communicate the gospel. And so they allow us often to bring our conversations to real gospel themes rather than something which in a sense is slightly on the peripheral of sexual and gender, for example, very important once you're following Jesus.
Speaker: but actually someone not following Jesus, we want to talk about Jesus and talk about the core of the gospel. And I think getting down to worldviews really helps us to do that and to bring our conversations to the gospel and the heart of the gospel.
Speaker: I think kind of would understand that, I don't know, a Western liberal New Ager would come with a whole range of different objections to the gospel to a conservative Muslim who would come with a whole range of different objections than a militant atheist. We kind of understand that big picture. What does it look like in practice? What is it like in practice for you as you share the gospel? Do you, when you're speaking to yeah people actually say, I wonder what this person's worldview You interrogate that and...
Speaker: Have you got any particular examples of how understanding where someone is coming from in the worldview has actually helped you get to the gospel in conversation? Yeah, i think I think I'm thinking that. I think I probably don't usually ask it outright, partly because, as we said, lots of people don't even realize they've got a worldview. um But I'm always thinking, what's going on below the surface here? What's the deeper...
Speaker: matter, the deeper topic, maybe what's the deeper disagreement between me and the person that I'm talking to. and And that's the bit that I might in a conversation, do sometimes of those in conversations, bring into the light. I know, so we're talking about we disagree over here, but I wonder actually, more fundamentally, we disagree about what might be, freedom or or human origins. that might be and i I think actually our disagreement really is about where we come from and that seems to shape everything. So tell me what you think about that. we know or Can I share with you why i think this about human origins? And it's kind of that I'm just trying to do the quiet processing as I'm listening to someone. I'm im trying to do good listening. we trying to really understand them on a deeper level and then then I'll take the step. And that's what I want to do then to take the step down to the deeper level. which can be different ways. It could be kind of saying, I think actually we're disagreeing on this. Here's what I think about that. What do you think?
Speaker: Or it could sometimes be the next step you can take, which can work really well, I found it can be really helpful is to reveal something that's on the deeper level of the disagreement. But also is there a, Is there a basic a problem with the opposing worldview, the other worldview you can bing begin to reveal?
Speaker: And slightly problematize it and get someone really thinking. And that, of course, is not trying to catch people That's we're trying to do. We're not trying to be intellectually superior, catch people out. but We're trying to provoke people and kind of get them thinking more deeply. We're trying to ask good questions. is what Jesus so often did in engaging with people.
Speaker: And I found that just... really, really helpful. And I think of one particular example of a conversation i had not that long ago with a guy who at one point would called himself Christian, now very much doesn't.
Speaker: And we had a lot of conversations around how a lot of the values he was saying he values and wants to hold, and he wants his children to grow up particularly, don't make sense with the worldview or the perspective of life he now says he has.
Speaker: And it was really just interesting how we had this conversation and he I yeah think he almost said it in the and the conversation of, does the need to think about this more? Because there's such inconsistency in my life.
Speaker: How does this work? you know And there was a sense of him going away, really pondering. I think if we send people away really pondering, that is a really good thing. And that's why I found that can be helpful.
Speaker: Yeah, I like that. And actually, your point about the children is an interesting one, isn't it? you often Often people are like, you you instill certain values. and i and But then the question is, well, why should I do that? And I know some people have done that in workplace settings as well, because some workplaces often have slogans about integrity and those kinds of things. But of course, the question is, why why should you ah should you hold that? I mean, I think when you were talking there, would would you say the church as a whole...
Speaker: um needs to learn a bit more about this process? Because you you're obviously taking a step back. And as we say, some people may not know much about worldviews. Is this something that the that the church should be doing more of, sort of this approach?
Speaker: My hunch is this is a really, or has a has real potential to being effective kind of evangelistic engagement strategy in the modern world. And I think it's connecting with where some people, at least in modern Western society, really are. And lots of these young men, particularly, who seem to be really open to faith at the moment, spirituality, they are exploring that in a very intellectual way.
Speaker: And that means actually if we can begin to engage with some of those questions they're asking, you know, that they are listening to podcasts about worldviews, lot of them actually. And the risk is actually we get stuck on when they get stuck just on the intellectual. So there's more that needs to be done. But I think this is really key that we at the church at the moment are equipped in this because I think of some of the podcasts that these young guys are listening to.
Speaker: And then I think of many of the people I know in my church in a kind of sleepy seaside town in the South coast. I think if they come and bring those questions to church, Most people are not going to have a clue. And I'm not saying everyone needs to suddenly become a great deep thinker and be able to have deep, deep conversations on these things. But I think actually there is a real sense of equipping the church to think a bit deeper. In a way, I think we can all be equipped to do that. I think it is important. And I think it's important. Partly, i think we as Christians and churches so in the modern West have not thought about worldviews so much. Certainly the UK, it's got a while because we've had this kind of
Speaker: interesting situation of our culture having a fairly Christianised worldview, even if not a Christian worldview. And I think even... 10 years ago, at least 20 years ago, when people came into our churches, came to faith, or were having evangelistic conversations, we could assume some people had some elements of and some Christian-like kind of worldview as a starting point.
Speaker: And therefore, that wasn't where the big differences, in a sense, were. But that's very different now. Especially these younger people we're seeing exploring faith, they've often had no Christian exposure at school, at home, through family, no, nothing there at all.
Speaker: And I think we're in a different time now. I think there is a need for the church to slightly realize that. And that means we need to be equipped a bit differently. It means, in a sense, a foundation layer we used to be able to assume was there, as they didn't notice. Now it isn't there. And now is the time we need to bring it to the light and think about it. So I think it is really important and really helpful for churches to equip ah their people thinking about these for lots of reasons. And evangelism is definitely one of them.
Speaker: If you are a regular listener to Pep Talk podcast, we're wondering if you would be willing to do us a favor. And it won't cost you anything. We're asking if you'd be willing to pray for the ministry of Solasp. Every week, Solasp speakers crisscross the country, doing evangelism, sharing the gospel with people outside the church, and training and equipping and encouraging Christians to share their faith. And we really need your prayers to be able to do that effectively.
Speaker: The best way to pray for Solas is to sign up for our prayer letter. Jump over to the solesss website Solas And at the bottom of the page, there's a button that says newsletter sign up.
Speaker: And every month we will send you prayer requests and information about the ministry of Solas. It's your prayers that turn our busyness into fruitfulness. And we'd love it if you would join in.
Speaker: but what if Then it would be helpful for listeners if we kind of focus that, those principles down onto one issue. So imagine you're on a campus and you've just done a brilliant talk all about finding love, hope and peace in Jesus. You're giving your testimony about how you're walking with him and everything that he brings to your life.
Speaker: And a very angry young man puts his hand up for the Q&A and says, that's all very well, but Christianity is harmful and repressive. What do you say? How does your worldview approach help you take that young man from his objection at the surface level and down into this deeper level that you're talking about of worldviews and then point them on to Jesus. Talk us through how you would respond to a specific objection from a worldview perspective.
Speaker: That kind of context, the first thing, if it works in the context, I'm going to ask is ask someone to unpack that. Always, I think when someone makes a big statement like Christianity is harmful and oppressive, I want to kind of explore what do you mean? In what ways? Why? um yeah And to take the oppressive one particularly, you know, to talk about things being oppressive is to rely on and talk about a vision of freedom. And often people think Christianity is oppressive, especially when it comes to topics like sexuality and gender, but also many others, because they think actually it's stopping us ah living out true freedom.
Speaker: And that's relying on a certain vision of freedom. And so what I'm probably going to do is, so it's really interesting you to say Christianity is oppressive. And that you know that means, I guess, it's taking away our freedom. And that really is going to depend, isn't it, on what our vision of freedom is? And I might say, you know, i look around me the world. and I think the vision of freedom I see my most often is that I'm truly free when I can live out my desires with no one or nothing holding me back.
Speaker: And if that's our vision of freedom, I can totally see why you feel that Christianity is really oppressive. I can kind of see why you might really strongly feel that. And that if that was true, that'd be a really bad thing. So I get why actually you feel really stirred about that. And this seems a really bad thing for you.
Speaker: Here's the thing, I'm not sure that's a true or good vision of freedom, because actually I believe that we are created by a creator. And there's really good reasons to think that. And if we're created by a creator, it makes sense that true freedom is found not when we follow all our desires and no one holding us back, but actually true freedom is found when we live out the design and plan and purpose of our creator.
Speaker: Creatures find freedom in the plans and the purposes and the design of their creator. That's why I think actually Christian teaching isn't oppressive. i think it's showing us the way of true freedom.
Speaker: God giving me directions of how to live and not to live isn't taking away my freedom. Actually, it's showing me how I can be truly free because as a creature, I'm truly free when I live out the plans of the Creator. And I probably would say something like, and actually, you know what, that's what I found to be true in my life. That's what thousands, millions of people across Christian history have found to be true. and maybe it's the kind of thing you have to give a go rather than just think about. And why not try stepping into this and seeing, is the thing that on the outside looks like it's really oppressive or harmful,
Speaker: Might it be actually that it see it is true freedom and that when you step into it, that's the case. And so I'm doing a few things. and I'm revealing what the worldview is. I'm critiquing the secular worldview he's probably coming with. I'm explaining how a Christian worldview makes sense of Christian teaching and how I think it's better.
Speaker: But also I'm making a appeal with showing this isn't just intellectual. At some point it has to become about real life, about faith, about experience. And those are different kind of ingredients I'd want, I guess, in that kind of conversation or that kind of response to a question.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a lovely approach, isn't it? and And partly because many people are seeking those things, aren't they? We want freedom and or we want to live our best life, but what is our our best life? And I wondered, there's been quite a lot of talk about young people in particular being open or more open to faith. um has Does this approach sort of tap into that greater openness as well? Is it helpful? And also, is is this something you're seeing as well, a greater openness?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it does tap into that. I think my suspicion is one of the reasons we're seeing this very exciting great openness among young people is it seems almost like this younger generation have quite quickly felt and spotted the emptiness of the kind of dominant secular Western worldview. um It's an interesting question of how have they done that so quickly when their parents didn't? I don't know the answer to that, but that does seem to be the case because so many of them are...
Speaker: asking these deeper questions. They are i care about things like identity and freedom and meaning and purpose and and having real value in life. and It seems to me that there is it is a worldview thing and a worldview deficit almost, or a deficit of the worldview that's been provided by culture, which has caused them to ask these questions.
Speaker: which means therefore I think they are ripe actually to hear a richer or fulfilling life-giving and true worldview. So I really think it is definitely a great point of connection for those where that is their particular ah kind of journey that they're going through. i do also think though, as I think I might have briefly mentioned earlier, there is a risk, I think, and I'm observing this, know, as I scroll online and try and see what are these young people saying and engaging and hearing and stuff, I think there is a risk that it gets...
Speaker: stuck on those intellectual questions. And even I think of another youngish guy in his 20s I engaged with recently, and he grew up in a Christian family, wouldn't say he's actually a Christian. He's absolutely that kind of place of, I really kind of feel like i want to be a Christian. He's done so much of the listening and reading and thinking. And he, I think, does see actually the goodness of and the beauty of the Christian worldview and how it's better than than what the world offers him.
Speaker: And he actually, he feels he's kind of stuck there. And the conversations I've been having with him actually are trying not to keep going around the worldview stuff because kind of he already knows the intellectual stuff, but it is around the, at some point you've got to step into this. At some point you've got to trust in this. This isn't, this isn't all intellectual. Following Jesus isn't about having the right thinking. and Actually having the right thinking flows from following Jesus and trusting in him.
Speaker: And so although I think it's a real opportunity for us to ah use this kind of worldview angle lens to engage well with these young people and I think meet them where they're and the questions they're asking we need to not just do that actually we also need to bring actually other things that's where I think the kind of reclaiming revival of spiritual disciplines in some corners is really helpful as well I think those kind of things can be really helpful as little steps young people can take they're not just doing the intellectual thing they're also beginning just to engage with Jesus actually personally just intellectually
Speaker: So if we press into that a little more, can you give us some advice for how we should actually bridge conversation towards Jesus and the gospel? you know Because you could go down from the objection into the worldview stuff, but how how do we not get stuck there? What will what ways have you found that are helpful to get from the worldview, from the academic stuff, which is really important, but to Jesus himself and not go round and round and round, but yeah get gets to him and help people to actually meet him? Hmm.
Speaker: probably Probably in two ways. One, there's the way of, I think, once we're on the worldview level, getting to the gospel in the sense of the good news of what God offers us and what he's done through his son tends be relatively easy. Because once you're talking about things like this kind of identity, freedom, progress as well, different things like that...
Speaker: it's then quite easy to communicate the gospel in the key of those things. So we're not then just talking about two competing visions of freedom. We're talking about the fact that God the universe sent his son to die for you so you can experience freedom. So partly it's actually how can i communicate the core of the gospel and what the gospel offers to us in the key of this topic we're talking about? And that's something really important that Christians get answered.
Speaker: get get used and get bit trained up in actually of how do we communicate the gospel in different keys. But I think our traditional kind of way of this slightly more simplistic of God loves you, you're a sinner, Jesus died for you. I don't think that connects with people because people aren't coming so much with the background of I'm a s sinner with a need, but they are coming with I'm someone who wants to be free and I don't feel I'm free.
Speaker: I'm someone who wants a solid, life-giving, stable identity. And I don't think the world has given me that. here's how Jesus in the gospel gives you that. So I think partly one way I'd get there is just by um kind we're doing doing those kind of, or taking the conversation in those kind of directions. And one way would be actually to just make it really embodied and rooted and say to a young person, I think what you need to start doing is going to church. I think we need to start doing is trying prayer. I think we need start doing is read the Bible for yourself and ask God that if he's there, he reveals himself to you. Cause you've got at some point some push some of these young people, I think to say,
Speaker: I think I was already you getting stuck on the intellectual. Here's a practice. here's something that engages your whole self and your, um, your heart and your affections in this.
Speaker: And that I think is the thing which can move people forward. It's what I think a lot when I was seeing stuff online or just thinking, I, some of the stuff I want to post online in a sense almost is stop listening to me and go to church. and You don't need more people like me when you think about worldviews online.
Speaker: What you need to do actually is to go and experience what it is to stand in a room where people are worshipping the living God and the Holy Spirit is at work and actually have that encounter basically with Jesus.
Speaker: because for so And when when you listen to many the stories of people young people who are coming to faith, So often it is encounter. More so actually among those who come from new age spirituality, often it's profound encounter with Jesus, which then is a transformative thing. And I really want to hope and pray that we see more and more that happen among the kind of intellectual young men group, not just among the what tends to be a female group of kind of new spirituality young people.
Speaker: Yeah, that that also, you're sort of alluding to what what what we're doing with worldviews as well, isn't it? Sort of in a way it's removing obstacles, but it's absolutely not replacing a real encounter and it's a sort of leading leading to that. Could i just as a final question, could I just ask what has encouraged you in evangelism that you're seeing? I mean, this could be a more general question, but is there any particular ah area that's been really encouraging to you that our listeners might be interested to hear?
Speaker: I think it might be almost too obvious to say based on what I've said already, but I think just this openness we're seeing among young people, it just is such a moment of opportunity and just just just so incredibly exciting, basically. And I'm just encouraged that we are in a very different position to where we were 10 years ago, say And maybe I'm encouraged partly because I think 10 years ago, the new atheist thing, think it was little bit harder for your average Christian. You had to do some work to really be equipped to engage well with that. And for some people, that was just too much, you didn't have time, whatever.
Speaker: i think the kind of the exploring people do now, I don't know, i just think actually there's so much potential for all Christians to feel they are equipped to engage in this and for God to use them.
Speaker: And I'm just very encouraged and excited about what we're seeing already, but the sense of there could be so much more to come and the Lord is doing something and he's going to call each one of us who's a follower of Jesus to play a part in that.
Speaker: And that's just yet incredibly exciting. oh you're absolutely right. We we really live at interesting times, don't we? to Getting in God's Perspective, a short Christian introduction to worldviews, sexuality and gender by Andrew Bunt is published June 2026. So it's been out a few weeks now. Where's the best place for people to get it from, Andrew? Really you anywhere you like to get books. But if you do go to livingout.org, we have a shop linked there as you can buy it through that.
Speaker: Commission. I can hear the tills ringing. Wonderful. Yeah, and I just wanted to say thank you again. So many nice points that you've made. I like that idea of communicating in different keys. And actually, we can engage with people, can't we? And sometimes think if I give them the right answer, this will this will work, inverted commas. But as you say, actually, sometimes... People are seeing the world in a very different way. So it's very important and to step back ah um and sort of consider how people are thinking. And I liked your point about glasses and lenses. We don't often notice how we're seeing seeing the world and and other people might not as well. So it can be really helpful to make them see that. And I also like your point just about it being disarming when we do that. It's actually less controversial. You can kind of take a step back from and perhaps a subject that they may feel more strongly about and actually you can talk about the values that they that they themselves hold and and as you say then moving it from the intellectual to the personal to know Jesus and hopefully getting them to get to church and try prayer and and have an encounter with the Lord. So so thank you so much Andrew, it's a really encouraging. I'd also like to thank you all for listening.
Speaker: ah Do tune in again in a couple of weeks for another inspiring guest on Pep Talk from Solas.
