Transcript
Speaker: Do you think you have to be a particular type of person to be a chaplain? If you do, then this episode of Pep Talk is for you, as our guest will be challenging us to think about how we can all serve as chaplains to those around us, even if we don't think of ourselves in that way.
Speaker: Welcome everyone to another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. I'm Simon Wenham and I'm joined again by my colleague Gavin Matthews. Gavin, how are you?
Speaker: I'm doing very well, Simon. Yeah, having a good summer up here in Scotland this year, which is surprising because the last two summers have been a washout, but we're we're basking today. It's great. Fantastic. Well, I i i hesitate hesitate to say that it's it's almost too hot to tell. But it is lovely to have a and a nice ah summer. and For those ah who may have heard ah the recent episodes, ah you will have heard Gavin saying that we're nearing our 200th episode. And we'd love to hear from you listeners if you have any suggestions for ah the future of the podcast.
Speaker: That includes things you like, things you perhaps don't like, things you'd like us to cover. ah Please do get in touch with us via the website if you have any suggestions. It's always wonderful to hear your thoughts. thoughts.
Speaker: And it's also wonderful to introduce our guest today. We had a really great conversation prior to this call. And one sad thing about having to introduce someone is you feel you can never really do them justice in a few ah words. But it's ah a delight to have with us Dr. Kramath Iqbal.
Speaker: and He is, among many other things, an educator. He's an author. And he's speaking to us today about his work as a chaplain at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham.
Speaker: Kramer, thank you so much for being with us. I wondered if you could just start by just saying a little bit about your background and how you got involved with that work in the first place. Thank you and for having me on your podcast. It's a privilege.
Speaker: and It's um always an honor to um to have people who are interested in what I do. um And um so thank you.
Speaker: hope it it blesses you and blesses other people. ah So, ah I am man of a certain age, late 60s.
Speaker: I was born in Kashmir, 12, 13. um My parents decided that term ah I would have a better life in England.
Speaker: My father had been in in England for five years in the 50s. And um so we're talking in early 70s. And um they decided that they would send me to live with my sister who lived in England. And um ah so I was put on a plane um and um my parents stayed in in Kashmir themselves.
Speaker: And um I came and and settled in Birmingham. and didn't see them for the next to eight years. And it was um um a period before um and internet and um there weren't phones in our village. So I didn't speak to my parents for eight years.
Speaker: And um ah what happened during that time was I went away from my faith, which was kind of nominal cultural Islam. And um um I stopped doing that. And most of the people i was spending my life with ah were your regular white ah English people. They never spoke about God.
Speaker: um And, um ah you know, I became like them. And um and then slowly i and met Christians.
Speaker: And they were always more decent, more welcoming, more friendly than many of the other white people I met. And I became interested in Christianity. And um Then 25 years later, after becoming off coming to England, I decided to follow ah Jesus.
Speaker: And 12 years ago, i i'd I'd been a fit and healthy person normal my all my life and um never needed to go to a hospital.
Speaker: And um then suddenly my body decided otherwise, and um i operate I was um in a hospital for a month.
Speaker: And um during that period, of course, you have a lot of time in the hospital, time to think, reflect. just be. And um I was having many conversations with people, doctors, nurses, whoever had time, if they came to attend to me, um ah i i would talk to them, I would tell them I was a Christian. And ah and did they have a faith? um And um
Speaker: um And then I remember one one night, because at night the staff had more time. In fact, they're all almost grateful to you for engaging them in conversation because they're trying to pass the time.
Speaker: And I remember a very senior ah medic saying, ah telling me something very serious in her family ah that had happened. and A family member she'd lost ah to to suicide and um she was quite emotional ah by this stage.
Speaker: And remember all this time, I'm i'm the patient and and and she's the you know senior prayer medical practitioner. And um She's telling me this and i it was because I was doing ah the asking the questions.
Speaker: And I reflected on that and I decided that um I would offer my time to the to the chaplains as a volunteer. So I said, if I get better,
Speaker: I will give you some of my time. And, and you know, um I have reflected on that ah being the starting point, but actually um five years prior to that, ah when I was fit and healthy working, i remember talking to somebody um when I said, how are you? And she started to tell me about losing a family member, which happened to be a cat,
Speaker: And ah she had lost a cat. um And she also told me that this cat was a family member. She spent more time with her cat than some of her family members, human family members. So we have to treat that cat as her family.
Speaker: And she'd lost the cat and she was ah very upset. She was crying. And I think I probably joined in the crying. And ah so I think I've probably always been interested in people and wanting to know how they are and ask them questions. And and so the long and short of it is was and ah six months after I came out of the hospital, i was checked and
Speaker: I put through all the procedures and um ah given a list of people to visit in in the ward where I had spent a month. And I just went up to the first person and said, hello, how are you? And that was the start of my chaplaincy. And 12, 13 years later,
Speaker: here i am Wonderful. I'm intrigued that they give you a list. I had always assumed previously that someone would request to see a chaplain, but I'm interested that they give you a list. So when you approach someone, they may have a faith, may not have a faith. How do you establish whether someone is ready to have a kind of a conversation with you about sort of these these serious faith deep matters of life? what What's your approach when you come up to someone who you don't yet know?
Speaker: Well, the list has a name, list people's names. It also has a code, one of 50 codes, which tells me what faith they are.
Speaker: And by 50, I mean all the denominations are kind of abbreviated XJ, maybe Christian, Jehovah's Witness or something, you know.
Speaker: And, you know, I never look at those codes. I... i i I wait until I meet the person and and and the the Catholics will have had somebody ah visit them and, um you know, do they need me?
Speaker: Probably not. but So I go to everybody on the list. and I would simply turn up at their bedside and say, hello, how are you? I'm Kramath from the chaplain team. I'm a volunteer. we are a multi-faith team. ah I'm a Christian and I'm carrying a Bible because I don't want them to assume ah that I'm a Muslim chaplain because of my Muslim name.
Speaker: And so I carry a Bible. and But i I also tell them that I'm a Christian. and You know, that is usually 30 seconds, ah you know, 40 seconds in in my introducing myself. And they have now worked out that I'm a member of the hospital staff because of my uniform and... and They will let me know if they want me ah in how they respond.
Speaker: They haven't asked for me, so I know ah i'm cold calling. And um of course, they will let me know if they don't want me or if it's not a good time or if they're surrounded by visitors, then I know I'm interrupting and then I will apologize and go away. ah Or they they may say, actually,
Speaker: sit down and let's have a chat. And they may say to their visitors, can you excuse us? um and and And if they um mention God in their conversation or church, then I will ask them, do you believe in God?
Speaker: And if they say yes, um I will say to them, do you believe in prayer? and if they say yes, then I might offer them prayer and wait for them to say yes or no.
Speaker: And if they say yes, then I might say to them, if if God was here, what would you want to say to him? And they may say something, or most of the time what they say is, yes, I would like prayer, please. And I will leave it to you to pray as you let.
Speaker: And I pray for them in an ordinary language as if I'm talking to God, who's a friend. and who is approachable and in an ordinary language, because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to teach them how to pray, how to talk to God, because they're not everybody is familiar with that. And um occasionally they will thank me for the prayer, and they also express surprise that, oh, is that how you pray?
Speaker: I didn't realize that. ah Does that mean I can talk to God as well? And um ah that kind of thing. So, yes.
Speaker: ah it's It's a situation. um Of course, once or twice i I will be visiting somebody who's asked for me. and And once or twice I might be visiting who I've already met before. But most of the time I am visiting people who I've never met before. They're just a name on a list and ah chances are I will never meet them again.
Speaker: If you are a regular listener to Pep Talk podcast, we're wondering if you would be willing to do us a favor. And it won't cost you anything. We're asking if you'd be willing to pray for the ministry of Solas.
Speaker: Every week, Solas speakers crisscross the country doing evangelism, sharing the gospel with people outside the church, and training and equipping and encouraging Christians to share their faith. And we really need your prayers to be able to do that effectively.
Speaker: The best way to pray for Solas is to sign up for our prayer letter. Jump over to the Solas website, and at the bottom of the page, there's a button that says newsletter sign up. And every month we will send you prayer requests and information about the ministry of Solas. It's your prayers that turn our busyness into fruitfulness. And we'd love it if you would join in.
Speaker: And now, back to the program.
Speaker: I suppose would be interesting to know what your goal is for your work. You mentioned that you have a particular prayer in mind for people as you do your ministry. Could you say something about that? Because that has sort of relevance to all of us as we look at at talking to other people about faith.
Speaker: Yes, so i am I'm essentially providing a listening service to them. And ah I have learned um for the last 10, 12 years that I've been doing it, that um I'm a stranger and you know Recently, our prime minister made a very unpleasant speech about our nation being full of strangers. And um he was talking about people who are immigrants. And actually, as an immigrant, one time that i actually feel being a stranger is a privilege and ah a positive is when I'm visiting people.
Speaker: ah Because I'm a stranger, people somehow feel um they can talk to me. I'm not family. I'm not a friend. ah They'll probably never meet me again. And ah so they can tell me anything. They can cry in front of me, especially ah men of especially men of a certain age. and They will cry for in front of me and and cry with me.
Speaker: and um So, I have learned that what I'm doing is providing a listening service. And so, it's simply asking open ah questions and then waiting to to to listen to them.
Speaker: And other than knowing their name and one or two that I may have met before, I'm meeting complete strangers.
Speaker: So I don't know when I say to them, hello, how are you, what they will say, whether they will say they're about to go home um or they will say they've only got a few few more days to live um or um or something else. um And being in hospital is a serious business.
Speaker: People are in the depths of life, and I want to meet them in that space. I want to see them as God sees them.
Speaker: So I'm completely trusting God. that he has given me this job, which is a privilege, that he's gone on ahead and prepared the people, prepared the conversation I'm going to have.
Speaker: And he's there. So I have a prayer that I usually read out loud to myself before I go to the ward.
Speaker: and And this is how it goes. Dear Lord, I thank you for my life and health and for my ministry. Please draw me close and help me do your will today.
Speaker: As I step into my role as your witness, I ask that you equip me with your courage, confidence and wisdom.
Speaker: I pray that you go on ahead to prepare the ground for me and watch over my conversations, helping me to see the people I visit as you see them, helping me to tune into their stories and concerns and speak through me in response.
Speaker: I thank you for the NHS and the staff who work there, especially at my own hospital. Grant them the patience and the wisdom they need to do their job.
Speaker: Lord, I pray for those around me who struggle to trust for miracles, wonders, and signs. Pour out your Spirit on them that they may stand in awe of who you are.
Speaker: So for those 90 minutes, two hours, I'm completely handing over things to God.
Speaker: And you know, there are times when I have conversations with people. And after the conversation, i go and catch up with myself by standing in the corridor.
Speaker: And I just try to realize that I've just had a conversation with somebody and I just don't know where the words came from that I was speaking because they weren't mine.
Speaker: So it's it's almost a feeling that I am opening my mouth and the words just come out because it is a situation where I can't say to them, can you just hold hold on to that and I'll go and pray?
Speaker: and come back or can i phone a friend they've said something and they expect me to say something in response
Speaker: yeah what sort of responses do do you have for from people do do people ask you about your faith? Do people even say, I want to believe that as well? Or what what kind of responses? I mean, you've prayed, Lord, speak through me, give me the words in response to people's questions. How has he answered those prayers?
Speaker: And how have the people that you've been ministering to responded over the years to this really unique ministry that you have? People will thank me usually, and and people will sometimes say to me, um you know, why why are you carrying a Bible?
Speaker: And they've they've noticed my brown skin and they've noticed my ah Muslim-sounding name. And they want to know why I'm carrying a Bible.
Speaker: And depending on what i see in front of me, it could be a two-minute sharing my faith story or five minutes.
Speaker: Hmm. ah depending on how much I think they want to know or how able they are to listen to me. And of course, with some, I will ah tell them a few things and then they will want to know more and and more and more and keep asking questions. And um There are occasions when um um they're they're interested in the faith, and i always have a spare Bible, as well as my own Bible. I carry a spare one, and um ah might ah they may ask for that or they or show interest, or I might offer them a Bible. And um um i sometimes have a wooden cross, a small one in my pocket, um And if ah if I think they may need ah the comfort of God um and something tangible, i might offer them that.
Speaker: ah So depending on how they respond, I go with that. And no two people, I reckon I have had 7,000 conversations in the time I've been doing this and no two people are the same.
Speaker: An extraordinary number, if you as you say, if you toss it up, as you say. So yes, difficult to generalize ah about what how people respond. and you You said to us and when we spoke previously that um ah One thing that you feel particularly strongly about is that being a chaplain is is not just ah a sort of professional post for people like you, and that actually everyone can be chaplains in different ways. I wondered if you could say a little bit more about that, because I think some of us do think of this type of person is a chaplain.
Speaker: and ah but but and then maybe think, well, perhaps I'm not to that kind of person. I wondered if you could say a little bit more about that, because I thought that was very a very powerful point that you were making, because some people may be listening to you thinking, yes, he you can see he he would make a wonderful chaplain, but he's very different from me.
Speaker: Yes. I think I've become aware since doing the chaplain work and and and possibly before, but certainly, ah ah although I was doing it before, and having conversations with with with strangers in all sorts of situations, I i do it more and i I am very conscious that actually chaplaincy can be done anywhere.
Speaker: And wherever there are people one or more people, there is space and possible opportunity to be a chaplain.
Speaker: And what I mean by that is people have stories, people have concerns, people wish to talk about their concerns or their stories, their life, what's going on for them.
Speaker: And if you show interest, if you are willing to listen, you know, the good good old English way hello, how are you?
Speaker: and and And how are you is normally not one where people want to know your response. They don't want you to tell them their life so your life story.
Speaker: The how are you is part of the hello. But there is a way of asking people how they are. you You ask them, usually separate from the hello.
Speaker: You wait for their response. Obviously, you read these signs, your body language tells them that you're not rushing.
Speaker: um You ask them and they start to tell you things. And then you don't look at your watch or you don't say to them, sorry, i have to go because they might be telling you something really deep.
Speaker: And ah so I've had conversations with people on my dog walk, ah at the airport, um ah at the supermarket, um at the petrol station, wherever.
Speaker: You know, um I sometimes get into trouble for ah when I go places and don't come back for half an hour ah when it should have only been two minutes because I'm, you know, deep in conversation and and and I'm listening to someone ah and I'm So I say to people, you don't have to go to a hospital. You don't have to go and be a chaplain at an airport. You don't have to be a chaplain with an official title.
Speaker: ah You can be a chaplain. You can be a listener where there are wherever there are people.
Speaker: Ask good questions. and wait for people to respond. And when they do, do them the service and listen and maybe ask another question, but be willing to to listen to them.
Speaker: we We are in an industrialized society ah with you know all mod cons, but very few opportunities to be heard.
Speaker: So I want to encourage the listeners, and you know, if you're a Christian, this is your ministry. If you're not Christian, you you can you can be a listener.
Speaker: You know, we we Christians don't have a monopoly on being chaplains or being and doing such ministries. ah That's really, really important. My wife and I are currently... working way through a marriage course and there's a section on the marriage course on listening and you have to listen to your spouse without interrupting and then remember what they've said and you've no idea how hard it is to listen without interrupting it's a real skill isn't it to to learn and and to master whether it's in marriage or in the kind of work that you're doing in a hospital or as you say where you meet people in the park or at an airport that the skill of listening. I'm always struck by the fact that if God is willing to listen to us and our prayers, why would we not listen to other people? If God's going to be that gracious to us,
Speaker: Why shouldn't we be gracious to other people and give them the honor of listening deeply to what they have to say? So thank you so much for telling us about your ministry in the hospital. God bless you as you do that work. and It's so important what you're doing there, going out representing Jesus in the hospital. So every blessing and power to you as you do that work and pray that as you do that over the next few weeks, you'll have wonderful conversations with people and be able to give out those Bibles and to share your faith with all sorts of people, whether they're about to be discharged to go home or whether, as you said, they are in the very last days of their life on earth and getting ready, in fact, to meet with God. So we we ask for God's blessing on you and that work. Thank you for telling us all about your ministry today. That's the end of Pep Talk for this episode. We'll be back in a fortnight with another interesting guest talking about their ministry on the front line somewhere around the country, sharing Jesus, engaging with the lost and doing God's work for his kingdom and his glory. See you again in a fortnight. And thank you for listening.
