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Ep 8 - Greg Buckley and Stephane Grabina
298 Plays2 months ago
If I had one piece of advice I could give you that could take your shop to the next level, it would be for you to start using Tekmetric. So, are you? Make the change HERE
Greg Buckley and Stephane Grabina enter the confessional in today's episode. They each talk through the challenges of having consistent leadership with staff. They even discuss the increasingly popular topic of the four-day workweek.
00:00 Trade Consistency: No Magic Needed
03:43 "The Process-Driven Coaching Debate"
08:39 "Implementing the Rack Attack Idea"
09:31 "Engagement Essential for Success"
15:24 Campaign Failed: No Calls Received
18:55 Hands-Off Approach Backfires
19:47 Implementing New Store Concepts
22:52 Free January Saturday Oil Changes
28:24 Incremental Growth Despite Implementation Challenges
29:40 Finding Motivation and Connection
35:14 Data Significance Debate
36:17 Unconventional Performance Measuring Approaches
39:24 Elite Diverse Auto Group Accountability
44:49 "Mindset Shift for Better Matches"
48:27 "Car Repair Diagnostics Expert"
52:07 Shop Training Plan Evaluation
54:13 "Wishing for a Dedicated Sarah"
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Event Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
What's up everybody. Uh, on today's episode, I talked to Greg Buckley from Delaware and Stefan Grabina from Maryland and the DC area about the different ways that we can operate a shop. We actually spoke at auto shop answers event in Houston. So we touched base on a little bit of the, uh, details from that meeting as well. I think it was a good conversation. I hope you like it.
00:00:22
Speaker
The following program features a bunch of doofuses talking about the automotive aftermarket. The stuff we, or our guests may say, do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of our peers, our sponsors, or any other associations we may have.
Confessions of a Shop Owner
00:00:36
Speaker
There may be some spicy language in this show, so if you get your feelings hurt easily, you should probably just move along. So without further ado, it's time for Confessions of a Shop Owner, with your host, Mike Allen.
00:00:54
Speaker
Alright, so we're here in Houston recording an episode of Confessions of a Shop Owner, are you guys Catholic? I am. yeah So, bless me, evil shop owner for I Have Send. But I'm here with Greg Buckley of Buckley's Auto Care in Delaware. Stefan Garina of Excluservice. No longer just BMW. Excluservice is just Excluservice. European specialist in DC. yeah Rockville, Maryland. So, Northwest DC. okay ye Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. yeah
00:01:26
Speaker
I wanted to talk about a couple of different things, okay but the first thing I want to talk about is you're here attending the Todd Hayes Experience.
Industry Evolution and Methodologies
00:01:34
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. How's that going for you so far? It's going great. I mean, I did my own little clip. I put it up on the change the institute and you know I'm ready for all the the barbs to come back at me in the arrows. But as I explained, um a lot of, and I told this to Todd, a lot of shop owners, and and but well you grew up with a service station model. And I fall back on this because it's it's just so relatable to me that this isn't a revolution, it's an evolution of what that model was like.
00:02:07
Speaker
And for anybody that was in that business, you certainly understood where sales, service, and customer experience come about. And I feel personally that as an industry, we really have gotten away from understanding what we are all about. When we go from, and and I said this,
00:02:28
Speaker
We go to mechanic technician. what What did the plumber go to? The plumber's always a plumber. The electrician's always the electrician. The roofer's always a roofer. So why are we you know trying to elevate something from common knowledge? and and centuries of what we're known by. um For me, I have not found anything indifferent that I can't implement into my business or make better into my business. So I'm satisfied. You know, I came down with different intentions with trying to, you know, see if this is real, hokey pokey, magic dust and all that. And I'm here to tell you that
00:03:10
Speaker
There is there really isn't I don't think there is a silver bullet in our industry I think what's unique about what Todd has done and look like elf in the room He's one of the most divisive characters in our industry right now. Yeah It's because he's absolutely unapologetic and he's bombastic and he's over the top. Yeah, and that rubs some people the wrong way But I'm speaking He five years ago. Everybody was angry at Aaron Stokes because he yeah came out of nowhere and he was Unapologetic and he was over the top and and before that was Greg Sands. Yeah, so um I Think it's just the flavor of the day for who do we get to hate this year, you know um The methodology that they are teaching there's nothing in it that is
00:03:58
Speaker
you know that we've never heard. We've all been doing this long enough. We've heard every one of these steps. But I've never seen anybody put them all together in a package the way that they do and execute so cleanly. yeah They execute, execute, execute. They're so savage about staying on process, staying on procedure.
00:04:15
Speaker
And all of the, you know, coaching mafia and the training mafia and cadres in our industry say, it's all about procedure and process and sticking your procedures in process. But so few of us or them actually live that out. Whereas that's exactly what they do. Yeah. Period. And also they're doing it for profit to make big, big bucks and they don't hide that and they're not ashamed of that.
00:04:39
Speaker
And I think our industry for a little bit has decided that we should be embarrassed about being profitable, which is a whole other conversation. Yeah, I mean, because you have to understand, you know, we're owners and there's technicians out there that will become owners. And the difference is when you decide to go to ownership, you have a business. The business has to grow. You know you know you could call a car fix, exclusive serve, Buckley's. It's not Buckley's. The name isn't important. It's the business. It has to grow. How do you grow it? All right, well, I have these elements that I have to do as an owner. And if you think diagnosing a car is difficult with your schematics and all that, run an operation that has to feed the people
00:05:27
Speaker
like yourself having to fix the cars. I mean, there is something that you really have to understand. So, you know, you have to think retail. I don't know, I made this clear, I don't know of a business, any business, small or large, that does not retail at some point in their life. Unless you're a unicorn and you are, everybody wants you and there's not enough of you.
00:05:52
Speaker
So I think one of the things that, Stefan, you asked me last night, you said we were at, we were at Adam's Automotive. They were good on a demo on one of their rack attacks. You said, Mike, do you think that this program would work for me? And I said, no, I don't. And it's because you are a specialist and people come from long and far to come to you for your specialized service.
00:06:14
Speaker
And so, ah can it work? Yes. But I think it would be, and they will probably tell you tell you that I'm an idiot for saying that. They probably say absolutely it will work, right?
00:06:26
Speaker
But so I think there's some elements of what they do that I can implement into our environment. Hey there. I'm going to tell you about something that has completely transformed our, our, my shop tech metric as a 20 year shop owner, outdated systems used to slow us down. Everything was clunky from check-in to estimate building to customer updates. It all felt just.
00:06:50
Speaker
Super inefficient. Switching to TechMetric has changed everything.
Operational Efficiency and Culture
00:06:53
Speaker
With TechMetric, you get a powerful shop management system that includes DVI, quick and easy estimate building, inventory management, real-time reporting, amazing customer communication, and it's really easy for your employees to learn how to use the software. I'm talking like a one-day learning curve.
00:07:10
Speaker
On top of that, TechMetric has tons of other tools to make you an even better operator. Stuff like integrated payments with buy now, pay later options. It's a huge asset. Ask me how I know. And recently they've added a CRM component with their partnership with ShopGenie, which I'm a happy ShopGenie customer already. So I'm super excited about that.
00:07:30
Speaker
Obviously, there are a lot of factors at play here, but I want to give you some facts about my business since I made the change to TechMetric. In September of 2020, when I switched to TechMetric, my ARO was $293. In September of 2024, we were $916. That's over 300% growth.
00:07:46
Speaker
Now I'm not saying that TechMetric created all of that change, but I'm 100% saying that I couldn't have come this far without TechMetric. It's a key factor in our growth and success. If you're ready to level up your shop, TechMetric has everything you need. Productivity, revenue, customer experience. Measure up by every measure with TechMetric. Tap the link in the show notes to learn more. you know okay so when i When I drove up yesterday, parked in the parking lot.
00:08:11
Speaker
I didn't really know where to go because I didn't know where everybody was meeting, and this is a huge facility. As I'm walking to their like their front door area, I saw two guys It must have been service writers, but both of them were running front counter to the front desk. And I'm like, immediately I saw these guys get it. They have a speed of service. they have ah There's something special here. There's a culture here. And all it took was just to see that. And then obviously we saw the the rack attack yesterday. And you know again, that's when I asked you, is this something that would even
00:08:48
Speaker
you know, your perspective for a Euro Shop is something that would even work. Because, you know, there's so many steps that extra steps that I feel that we have to take as a Euro Shop that I don't know that we can do exactly that. But it's the It's the sentiment of being able to execute on the idea of that. And that's what I have to go back when I, you know, well, obviously we got another day and a half here, but that's what I have to go back in my shop and figure out what are the things that I've learned here that I can implement into my shop. And it's a lot of it is, you know, the the biggest thing I picked up on is I was talking to Joe, the son. Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
He's like, you just have to be more engaged. Like you have to be willing to be in the shop and pull the cars in and out and put the cars on a lift and take the wheels off to what you got to do to, to implement this. And the first thing, you know, not the person, one of the things that, that came to my mind is I had a buddy of mine who was a shop for a restaurant fixer. So he would go in, restaurants would hire him to be the manager and he would just go in and, um,
00:09:57
Speaker
you know, kind of run things. And I remembered the last couple times I went to see, it's been years since I've seen him. It was before COVID because at COVID he just, he moved to the islands and he's just retired and living over there now. um But he would be an expediter in the restaurant. What that means is the The orders would come in. He would fire off the order to the cooks when the order was ready. It's kind of like what Gordon Ramsey does and and when he goes to fix a restaurant, right? Kind of the same thing. And it's just, you know, we have to have that presence in our building um to be able to do that. And I think that's going to massively impact. So, you know, like, is it key takeaways? um Speed and culture.
00:10:41
Speaker
And again, I don't know that I have the leadership skills to get my advisors to run like that, you know? um Well, so I think part of it is, it's a, it's a hustle culture, right? That they've built. And, you know, they've got to work hard, play hard, make a lot of money kind of mentality. But also one of the conversations I was having with Hayes just a little bit ago while we were eating lunch is,
00:11:10
Speaker
He's a savage. yeah You follow the process, or you don't make it. You get one warning. It's like, I don't know if you if you caught it. Last night when we were there, he was going around introducing everybody. And he said, hey, you're going to be late to the ah take five again. And the guy was like, no. ah He had been late to a take five recently. You get one tardy. And he was just a camera guy. I don't want to say who it was, but you get one tardy. yeah And then you're fired, yeah period.
00:11:43
Speaker
You run to the customer, and if you don't, you get one warning and a reminder. And if you do it again, you're fired. Yeah, you're promoted to customer. Yeah. And you know what? You don't have to make, it sounds terrible. It sounds like evil shop owner, right? Yeah. You don't have to make a lot of examples before everybody realizes that you mean what the fuck you're saying. And yeah, yeah hey, if I work here, I'm going to be a part of a killer good team, and we're going to crush it, and we're going to make a lot of money together, and we're going to give incredible service.
00:12:12
Speaker
but i gotta to bring on my a game yeah but everybody is really good at what they do because if you're not really good at what you do, you don't like the cut. It's kind of the vibe that I'm getting. Yeah. And I think that's a real hard part. It's it's a hard part for me. I mean, yeah absolutely you know, you get it, you get a soft spot and you want to hang on to a person thinking, well, I can change you. I can fix them. I can fix them. Right. In the meantime, you're bleeding. That's why I used to date crazy chicks. Yeah. So, i mean it's so you know, going back to seeing them run yesterday, right? Um, going back to seeing that it was, uh, it was really cool to so one them running, but then.
00:12:47
Speaker
Talking to Joe, it's just like, well, I didn't tell them to run. Like they just know that we have to move fast, but they know that they have moved fast because I don't have, I don't have a problem getting in the back there and getting my hands dirty and me moving fast. I don't know if you saw that, um, one of the young men that was part of the racotech crew that was doing a demo last night, they kept having to slow him down because he was going too fast for Glenn to keep up with his explanation of what was happening. Right.
00:13:11
Speaker
right like He was like, the wheels are off. We need to be going up with this car. like They got the mid-rise. And by the time the wheels are off, they've taken their pictures and done their measurements and everything else. And he's ready to go. I'm like, wait, wait. Glenn's still talking. So they they had to slow it down for us last night, which I thought was pretty funny. So I was pretty impressed with the numbers in terms of marketing, you know what they do. They take 5% of top line. 5% of their target top line. Target top line, right. And then, OK, so it goes amongst.
00:13:41
Speaker
their operations and they dominate with direct mail, which I think a lot of us don't look at. A lot of guys, younger guys will go to TikTok and well, maybe not TikTok now, but yeah is not for this week. Not for this week, right. But they'll do YouTube shorts or Facebook shorts, a thing that's weren't
Marketing and Customer Engagement
00:13:59
Speaker
that, and it's not. you know Definitely direct mail is key. I was impressed by their TV spend, which was interesting because I think that the local market, you can you can actually penetrate pretty well. The fact that you can drill down so tightly yeah on what homes and households and demographics get your ads right ah finally makes TV make sense for a lot of people. yeah Whereas if you it was just broadcast on the cable network,
00:14:27
Speaker
then there was cost prohibitive unless you were really big. you know And it's funny because down in the Millsboro, we got these two smaller channels, W, O, B, C, and there's another one that all you see are local commercials, you know like mom and pop operations. And I'm thinking, well, okay, yeah they're cool commercials, they're pretty slick, they're goofy, right? But I'm watching them. yeah And I go, okay, I got to look in there and they come here and get something to look into.
00:14:54
Speaker
so I mean, so I tried that specific brand that they were using to for Euro. And they told me that they could target to even like BMWs. And so that's what we went after. So I did it for about three months. It was three grand per month. And I had it on a.
00:15:12
Speaker
tracking phone number, not a single call came through on that tracking phone number. So it's, I don't know if maybe the rep I had and the team that they had to represent us just, but it just didn't work for us. Um, you know, cause we used at the time we had call rail, so we use these phone numbers to figure it out and I'd spent all that money and not a single phone call. So, you know, that's, I think that's one of the questions I'll ask them like, Hey, you know, like,
00:15:37
Speaker
how are you guys getting involved with this to figure out what is what isn't working because you know I when I said hey ah this isn't working for me the phones aren't ringing because right the the goal of marketing isn't to get the cars in the doors to the phone ring right right and Then you have to ask the question, okay, well, are they calling when you're closed? You know, but the tracking number has zero. number wouldn't report that Right. So, uh, makes you wonder if the tracking number was set up appropriately or if, or if there was a print, a print error where they had the wrong number on the damn, uh, it could be. And the hope was that since it's, so by the way, it's.
00:16:17
Speaker
the way they're doing it, it's not necessarily that it comes up on cable. So it's the idea is that if you have a smart TV, and when you're using apps to watch YouTube TV or YouTube TV, or, yeah you know, we were going since we're, you know, ah euros, we were kind of going after um the stock market channels, business channels, like Fox News, TV, you know, Fox Business News, things like that. I know you're super conservative. so that Yeah, absolutely. You know, especially in the DC metro area. You know, we bleed right over there. So um
00:16:48
Speaker
You did have Red Skin stuff on last night. I still do. Nice. Commanders. Did I call Red Skins? I'm a Redskins fan, man. I'm a Redskins fan. I grew up Joe Theismann, Art Monk, so I'm just going to age myself.
00:17:07
Speaker
and i come from Before we had the Panthers, that we were Cowboy Country. sir You know, you had to be skinned or cowboys, right? So yeah, anyway, sorry, that was a tangent. i don nowhere so I'll say out of it then, cause I could have kept it going. one down Everybody hates the Eagles though. right it does yeah My wife also an Eagles fan. So you got to see, you got to bleed green Delaware people, man. I know. So terrible. Fighting Irish and in the Eagles. That's it.
00:17:37
Speaker
Um, they're up there drinking water. yes Yeah. ah Sure. and From the crick. Is it? Yeah. From the crick. Yeah. really So, uh, what, s scoyki hey i want to go what was that? I don't even know what that is. It's the river. Oh gosh. don't don't swim it Try to pronounce it. Yeah. Good luck. and Just take a lighter. yeah it's um It's almost as bad as the sand river. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Um,
00:18:05
Speaker
i want to talk I want to switch gears are a little bit. yeah The title of the podcast is Confessions of a Shop Owner. One of the things I'd like to talk about to most people who join me is, what did you fuck up in 2024? Tell me about it and tell everybody who's listening about it so that we can hear your
Family Involvement and Business Dynamics
00:18:24
Speaker
mistakes. How long is this podcast supposed to be? It's like, what didn't I fuck up? well yeah i mean know That's what we should want to do as is business owners and people who are constantly striving for improvement is learn from others mistakes so that we don't make those mistakes and we can make exciting new mistakes, right? so Right. So, Greg, I know that you're 24, you were stretching and growing into having multiple locations, right and also your family was getting involved heavily with the business to a degree that they never have been. And and I let them continue to do it without any
00:18:59
Speaker
interference where interference was definitely needed and so over the course of 24 you know not only did we miss our revenue line that we should have gotten we also missed projections and that really tanked number one and number two fortunately was so strong it was able to hang on or support one but that's not the way it goes so but lesson the that messed up with me was giving too much credit or staying hands off when they clearly weren't really ready for it and and understand what they need to do in order to keep business going. So now in 25, that's a note.
00:19:40
Speaker
we're We're getting back to normal. There's yeah its no more no we hands off. so but They're grasping it little by little. so I have done that as well. where i well i mean In 24, I focused on my big store, my first store because that's where I was trying to implement. the concept that we're learning about here today. And it was a great year. like wait We had a lot of turnover. I lost my store manager. you know He just really didn't buy into the concept and didn't want to be a part of kind of the growth that was required. But we ended up, we were up like 28%, which is pretty strong. good But the other stores where I was not paying attention
00:20:22
Speaker
They're down, ye right? And I think that's definitely a point that I've got to focus on in 25 is figuring out how to have them all actually be profitable. That would be nice. I mean, it's it's it's it's difficult. And at the same time, even like it's Saturday, Thursday, I broke, I mean, I had a huddle before I left that everybody go and I was in Millsboro. And just like in Wilmington, they tell you, well, we don't want you we don't want you around.
00:20:51
Speaker
I don't know. I got to be around. You know what I mean? Can I hear somebody hear something in the background? I heard somebody. Some loud dude's drunk over there and making a bunch of noise. He was in the beer bong at lunch. So the thing is is that when they when they tell you that they don't want you around, what do you do? You know, and but they would give me a good point. Greg, you're an owner.
00:21:19
Speaker
We don't need you in the bay. We need you to have the so set up in the bay. And I'm going like, guys, I've been doing this to my eight years old. What do you think I, um I mean, I got to be part of something, right? Don't put me up in the crow's nest all the times. I just, I won't do it. You know, and I got to learn the balance of being, being there.
00:21:38
Speaker
being present, but not touching. you know i mean so Do you have an intentional plan for what you're going to do different to try to not have that repeat itself this year? Yeah, I'm putting ah things in place that I know work, which i I didn't do for number for Wilmington for the first tour. I let them kind of like go out on their own, right? And they didn't fly away like they wanted to or I wanted them to. They kind of hit the ground a couple of times. They did not fly Eagles fly. They did not fly Eagles fly. Sorry. Dad jokes, I can't help it.
00:22:14
Speaker
so So now, they're on the same path. And and and just yesterday, like I explained, we had the best week com combined ever, just this past week. And and i test I called both shops, we're texting them, and I say, congratulations, this is your best week ever. you know And I go, that's what it means to say yes, this is what it does. And you and I shared a conversation about our our current promotions and how strange that the big promotion that we're offering
00:22:46
Speaker
is irrelevant to most people, and we're getting the revenue off of that. yeah So they go, Stefan, do you know what we're talking about? Oh, OK. So I just opened on Saturdays this month. right So today is our third Saturday open. So um my first Saturday not being there. And the first Saturday, every Saturday in January, we're doing free oil changes.
00:23:11
Speaker
free. Just come at no limits, doesn't matter what kind of car you're bringing, you bring your 6'4 diesel, whatever. and But I also know in my market it's not like I'm going to have a Bugatti come in. On the first Saturday we did three free oil changes. We had 22 cars and did about $15,000 of revenue.
00:23:30
Speaker
on the first Saturday. And you just did three free oil changes? Just three free oil changes. The second Saturday, we had a snowstorm on Friday night. Snowstorm, we had a little bit of ice. Snowstorm for North Carolina. Yeah. Yeah. ah So it was dead until about 9.30 in the morning when people realized that, wait a minute, we can go outside. And we ended up with four free oil changes and $16,000 in revenue on 20 cars.
00:23:56
Speaker
So they' and they're not our normal customers. These are not my regular customers coming in on another day. These are. So how many of those cars that that of the $16,000 in revenue were from carryover familiar in the week? No, that's sales from that. to So for that reporting, like at the end of the month, we count what we collected every day. My service advisor team counts what they get approval on. okay So it was 15,000 of approvals and then 16,000 of approvals.
00:24:26
Speaker
so but So how many cars generated $16,000 in sales, but only four of them were the free oil changes? 22 on the first Saturday and 20 on the second Saturday.
00:24:38
Speaker
So so how come how come only four of the 22 cars got the free oil change? it's just That's all they were due for. Everybody else was there for tires or a check engine in line. so they just did they just did Those other cars were just there as an appointment. So I didn't have a big s sign waving out front that said free oil changes. You can't do it that way. I did ah did targeted digital ad to people who look like my best customers.
00:25:04
Speaker
So it wasn't to existing clients, it was to the community. Yeah, it's acquisition. You know, we changed all of our marketing stuff. It has a splash on it. I know it says now open Saturdays, you know, that kind of stuff. But it's... I mean, it's certainly busy. Anybody can be open on Saturday and be busy. You've got to have the systems in place to convert that car count to sales. And look, my ARO is lower than normal, right? 20 cars for 15,000 is not a killer ARO, but it's not terrible either.
00:25:36
Speaker
so so and so Did you notice a drop-off, any car count drop-off during the week for expanding to Saturday? I mean, compared to December, yes. But January is always slower than December in our market. Compared to last January, we're way up. Well, that's good. so ah can't you if you If you fill Saturday with week we appointments, like they say, oh, youre can I schedule the Saturday instead of during the week?
00:26:06
Speaker
That leaves the week open for new faces to come in. So it takes time i just to fill. I just fill as soon as possible. Oh yeah, as soon as possible. Exactly. I'm just saying. Yeah, it it opens up. so So staffing, how do you staff for that? does I mean, I'm sure, I'm assuming you don't have your entire crew work six days a week. So what we ended up doing is absolutely not a part of the concept that Adams teaches. It's something that I got from my 20 group with Elite.
00:26:32
Speaker
And I think you guys have both either are currently are or have been with the lead. I'm going there next week to ignite. Yeah, I'll see you in rest. Right. It's I have three teams. Each team is equivalent to 50% of my staff. And on any given day, two teams are working and one team is off. So my staff all work four days a week. And my shop is open for customers six days a week. And it's a three week rotating schedule.
00:27:01
Speaker
and every three weeks you get a five day weekend. So you're getting 13 five day weekends a year without using your PTO. Wow, which pretty that's pretty cool. That's what they call the 410 schedule.
00:27:13
Speaker
And so I and changed, I changed all my ads. What's it called? Four 10. So four days, 10 hours a day, 40 hours a week. the woo tas yeah and but wou ja i out of recruiting right exactly like no but I changed all my ads to say a four day work week. And the the volume of resumes that have come in. And to be totally honest, I've been so busy. I haven't been able to keep up with them. I've got multiple resumes that I haven't called for an initial interview, which is a big no, no. Right.
00:27:43
Speaker
Somebody sends a resume and you talk to them that day or the next day and I've dropped the ball on that just because there's
Digital Tools and Data Analysis
00:27:48
Speaker
so much going on. Yeah. That's great. And I'm feeling convicted about that here because they're talking about. Convicted or conflicted? Convicted. We're talking, ah we're using church words here. This is a conventional. Because, you know, you are the CEO of your company. Your job is to recruit, hire, train, and equip. And everything else. Right.
00:28:11
Speaker
is You should be, you know, delegating that out. Yeah, you should be. Or here they'll say, you know, you need to recruit higher training clip and you need to be in the trenches with the wrenches, baby, right? i have And so that's one of the reasons that I've probably failed to implement the concept as effectively as others have. Because we started it last January, so we're year-end.
00:28:36
Speaker
And I think I told you guys we're like 28% up year over year, which is exciting and but it's I haven't doubled like some of these guys have and I think the reason that is because the store manager that I have with me that I brought with me last December or December before last he was like I'll be in the trenches with the wrenches, you go do this other stuff. yeah And he didn't want me in there running his crew, right? And my crew doesn't want me in there running it, right? Because I'm a train wreck, you don't want me on a car, but I can learn how to pull wheels. you know I know how to pull wheels and check fluids and shit like that, but I haven't been out there part of the rack attack crew.
00:29:15
Speaker
and I mean, I think that's, you know, you asked earlier, you know, what are the things that we failed on this year? And I think that's me as engagement with the team. Like I just, you know, I don't know if it's depression or what I just got into a mode. I just go to my office and just kind of.
00:29:31
Speaker
just sit there you know and just watch the world fall apart around me. Just watch the world burn. I have 100% done that before. So that's kind of been my struggle this year. So you know coming to meetings like this, getting energized and meeting up with guys like you, you know this is kind of going to be my fire for for this year. Are there going to be influences, things that are going to influence the the results? Absolutely.
00:29:56
Speaker
But I'm gonna do my damnedest to not allow that to happen. I think the biggest thing um is what really surprised me coming here is talking about being in the trenches with the wrenches. So being part of the crew, being part of the systems, you know.
00:30:12
Speaker
I like being part of that, right? But don't we all have a hero complex? Do we all want to go fix it? Sure, we do. and then But ah don't all business consulting firms teach us to, you know ah you know, train your staff and step away and let them do it? You know what I mean? So it's no, we got to be willing to to get our hands dirty and and ah and actually get our hands dirty.
00:30:31
Speaker
So that's something I'm going to be working on this year. Todd Westerlund keeps looking around the corner. He's nervous because they've gone back into class and you guys are in there. Do y'all want to get back into class? Sure. Okay. Yeah, we can, we're, we're coming up on 30 minutes. We can, we can cut and we'll do another 10 or 15 minutes. yeah yeah right sounds good good yeah right All right. Hello darkness. Welcome back for part D.
00:30:56
Speaker
You've had another three hours of ah the Addams Automotive, tod ho Todd Hayes, Auto Shop Answers, and Dr. Nation. How's the Kool-Aid taste? Let's taste wonderful. Is it great? Is it great for your cherry? Yeah. All right. Still waiting for the guy to jump through the wall. That would be Todd. You know, I'll tell you when um so most of my front of house team at my big store has been down here at one time or another.
00:31:28
Speaker
And so it's funny whenever we get back from one and we do our next morning meeting, they always start it by screaming and clapping really loud. ah So it's, you know, we just think it's kind of funny and fun. You know, it's a good time. So how long does that continue until it just the first day? Just the first day. Yeah. So consistency is really kind of key. Well, I mean, so we have our meeting every single day, right? But I am just not like a cheerleader type personality. Um, I'll tell you that Xander, my, um, my service manager is more that style. He's much more upbeat, positive cat. Uh, and ah not that I'm like a negative Nancy or anything. It's just, I'm not so quite so bombastic. Um, and so it's just, it's good for a chuckle. And then we, uh, kind of move back into our regular cadence of conversation.
00:32:18
Speaker
ah But I had some good feedback from the service advisor that I've got here. He pointed out that in trying to be efficient and get our rack attack average time down under 20 minutes, we failed to do that. We're taking a lot of pictures of green stuff on our DVI.
00:32:38
Speaker
We take a picture of the tread on every tire regardless of whether or not it needs the tires. We take a picture of the oil sticker and the dash every time we take you know the license tag close up so you can see the expiration and the inspection date. We take all four corners, right? We've got like 15 pictures that we take on every car.
00:32:58
Speaker
uh, when they're green. And one of the things that these guys do is they only document the shit that you need. Right. Right. Which definitely cuts down on the time for the DVI. Sure. I mean, if you think about 20 plus times a day,
00:33:11
Speaker
363 days a year. A lot of time. It really does. I mean, we're in the middle of revamping our DVI with creating a lighter one just for that particular purpose. kind And then in terms of measuring tires, how do you, how do you, what tool do you use to measure the tires? The standard? Yeah, the little. Did you ever try to y'all tell?
00:33:33
Speaker
We've had it, and some guys like it, some guys don't. I think it gives a great measurement. It's a visual. It shows four tires, stopping distance, all that right away, and it's like a wand or a stick. And you can instantly see that the tread itself, take a picture of it, boom, I guess, and you're done. So i thought it I think it represents a better entire condition to the client, but, you know, trying to save time somewhere. I think it adds a little bit to it. And I think, you know, the speed is, is one big key, but I also think, you know, we pride ourselves on doing a thorough DVI and then how long does a customer actually spend looking at the DVI? You know what I mean? If, it's if you don't review it with them in real time, I mean,
00:34:24
Speaker
Yeah. Less than a minute, I would think. Right. They're just like, oh whatever. Just tell me what I need. you know um so you know But I guess you have to gauge some customers want the detail. They want to go through everything some customers do. Well, so b I think yeah we are using tech metric version. Yeah. OK. So that's really not a robust DVI solution. It's good. It can be. It can be, yeah. But it's not like AutoVitals, where it tells you how long the client looked at it, what they looked at, where they looked at it. i mean For me, that's, ah you know, that's overload in a sense. I mean, if if I need to have that information at one point, yeah, it'd be great to see well how many people are watching it and why, but measuring all that out.
00:35:08
Speaker
You know, I think it's a little too heavy. So, I mean, that's why we stuck with TM yeah on that thing. so Yeah, you're right. And there's a lot of data you can get from a lot of other softwares, but at the end of the day, does it really matter? You know, I mean, the other people who sell you that product are going to argue that, yeah oh, yeah, no, they're spending more time on this, you know, on the DVI's and watching this and that. And they're going to come up with data that they get, which I don't really know is, it you know,
00:35:35
Speaker
There are several companies that have built themselves around providing more data analytics out of the database than what Techmetrics existing reporting provides. yeah um and i I get that.
00:35:47
Speaker
but if you talk to ah Folks that have a really high volume, really high success level shop, not just here, but in general, ah they're not digging down into the metrics that tight, that deep. They're going car count, average repair order, gross profit margin, yeah hours per repair order. There's only a handful of KPI's that they really watch closely.
00:36:12
Speaker
You know, inbound phone calls, you know, unique inbound numbers is, is I think an important one. I think that was one of the things that was striking that they don't really follow KPIs like we're accustomed to. And I get that, you know, they're looking at what do you say, bottom line, basically, you know, and and you can tell.
00:36:30
Speaker
how many ah r RO's a tech can do to base your performance numbers on him and all that stuff. So, I mean, it's kind of refreshing in a sense when you don't have to use all of that. Because as the owner, you're going, okay, well, it's true. One less thing I got to measure, I suppose. But I'm so used to watching KPIs now. it's Well, you've been involved in coaching companies forever, right? You were a coach for a while. Just from marketing yeah just for marketing purposes, that's all. Well, I mean, you guys have all ah you played in the elite sandbox at some point or another. The volume of information that they want is more than I've seen from any coaching company. yeah they can They can dig really deep into your company if you give them clean data. right But there are dudes out there that flub those numbers, right? Either they don't they don't get them in on time, or they guesstimate some stuff they're not willing to calculate on their own, or you know I get it. Sometimes sometimes I'm like,
00:37:29
Speaker
90% productivity.
00:37:35
Speaker
yeah I can say that I do not I do I don't fudge the numbers on on the on the reports it's just that you know I'd rather be honest with them and say hey okay i'm screwing up here and screwing up there and stuff like that but it's ah it's It's time consuming and it's really like nails on a chalkboard for me. Always has been. you know um When I heard this, I go, that's really refreshing. don't Don't tell me that because I go right back to my bad habits of not measuring as good as I should. you know Well, and so that tendency towards over analysis and too much data is the type of thing that leads to your DVI policy requiring 30 pictures
00:38:17
Speaker
yeah to document the condition of the vehicle, headlights, tailpipes, everything. I've got pictures of everything. right That's a CYA mentality, and I get that, but what percentage of your customers do you really need to deal with that? Yeah, I can think of you know listen to conversations, listen to phone calls. How many times has it occurred where a picture might have said, oh, well, the last time we checked it, you had this much, and here's a picture of it.
00:38:42
Speaker
the last year, maybe twice. Yeah. So I'm spending an additional potential 15 to 20 minutes per DVI to save two conversations. i or I really see the point. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's some efficiencies to be gained in that ah way. If you want to be a volume shop, you know, if you're a small shop and you want eight cars a day and you got two guys and you're looking for a $1,500 ARO or a $2,000 ARO, then do it the other way. yeah you know and There's 100 different ways to scan this cat. You're right. We're all trying to come up with the the perfect solution to everyone's problem or to you know you know try to cookie cutter everyone. And you're right. we're We're all different.
00:39:24
Speaker
That's the thing that I love about it's one of the things that I love the one things that I hate at the same time about my 20 group is Elite is methodology agnostic like you can be um a Very high-level specialty diagnostic shop you can be a euro shop you can be a diesel shop you can be a generalist you can have one small location you can have 20 locations and You can use the Adams automotive concept. You can be a shop fix alkali, you know, whatever it might be.
00:39:54
Speaker
They just want you to be ethical and take action, and they want to hold you accountable for taking action on the things that you said you were going to take action on, and you know kind of advise you through that process, and I appreciate that. That's what I like about themself. I mean, it's it's not one-dimensional for success, you know and whatever approach you take, they're there to help you measure it and make sure it's good. And of course, take care of profits and people. yeah know so At the same time, I sometimes get frustrated because you know I'll be at ah at a 20 group shop meeting and it's a room full of smart men and women who are good operators for the most part. And you're visiting a good shop, like we don't visit shops that are not strong because we want everyone to get value from it. So the host shop has to be a strong operator also.
00:40:44
Speaker
and Maybe this host shop is a BMW specialist in Washington DC and you'll have a generalist in Texas telling you how you should run your business. And there are some ways that they can help you, and there are some ways where it just does not compute. And it happens the other way around, too. You'll have a dude who's got a 25 bay super high volume tire store that's doing $10 million dollars a year in tires, and you have to deal with the four bay Mercedes specialty shop telling him that he should polish his
Leadership and Strategy in Shops
00:41:15
Speaker
floors. Right. you know Again, like you said, I think there's a point to what you're saying, and and I think there's
00:41:23
Speaker
What we have to look at is, okay, what is the common denominator that all the successful shops have, right? And that no matter what or they do or what it is, it's leadership, right? They all have strong leadership, whether it's a tire shop or body shop or whatever, if they're going to be successful, they have to have strong leadership.
00:41:41
Speaker
and I look at these processes, it's not just determining are you going to be a volume shop or not. I think it's just being thorough and quick and efficient, which creates the volume capacity. yeah you know And if if I said I want to be a volume shop,
00:41:59
Speaker
Okay, there's many ways to be a volume shop. Low, low price, in and out, you take the Walmart situation. This looks this is a ah thorough thing that if you build these efficiencies and processes in and you hold people accountable, then you the volume is there for you to take advantage of.
00:42:18
Speaker
you know your capacity increases without you know square feet. yeah So that's what I am attracted to. you know cause it's you know Another way to increase your capacity without increasing square footage is to be open seven days a week. Seven days a week, right. Exactly. I don't want to tell my team I'm thinking of six as I sit here. but Seven, I don't know. I don't know if I could do seven. um Yeah, I'm only three weeks in at this point to be in six days a week. Yeah. And I'm wondering, I've always been fascinated by the the rotating four-day work schedule that we talked about earlier. Yeah.
00:42:55
Speaker
man, I hope it works out because I've sold this plan hard. Yeah. And if it doesn't work out, it's going to be a problem. So it's like fingers crossed. It's going to be hard to recover from that. Yeah. If you got to go back to five days a week, it'd be a problem. Yeah. Cause you got a lot, you'd have to say goodbye to a couple of people. Oh, I'm sure I'd have to do something like that. Like giving somebody a raise and then saying, Oh, nevermind. I can't afford that raise. Right. yeah Right.
00:43:18
Speaker
I interviewed a service advisor the other day. um and He wasn't the right fit for us, that's okay, still a good dude. But he's been a service advisor and service manager of an electrical specialty shop in my market for like eight years. And he gets a salary plus a percentage of, or a certain number of dollars for every billable hour that the shop produces.
00:43:44
Speaker
So it's kind of a weird pay plan for a service advisor. um And their lead technician, who is hourly, was at $60 an hour and he demanded a raise to $75 an hour. And the boss gave him the raise of $75 an hour and went to the service manager and said, I can no longer give you your bonus on the hours that he produces because his hours are not too expensive.
00:44:13
Speaker
So he gave him effectively like a $20,000 pay cut because he gave a mechanic a raise. yeah So you just rob Peter to pay Paul. yeah but Rather than just raise his labor rate and not to cover it. right and this is a mean I've subbed work out there in the past. you know If I had a harness problem and I didn't want to mess around with it, I wanted to focus on stuff that we're better at and sub harness rebuild job over there. And they're really good at what they do and their labor rate is $75 less than mine.
00:44:42
Speaker
That's terrible. Yeah, it's crazy. And you do as a shop owner, you're like, I don't care. I'm subbling it out. Anyways, I'll just mark it up. Doesn't matter. Correct. Fix the problem. And it's a mindset thing. I was like, dude, and I told him, I say, Hey man, I don't think that we're a good match for each other and that's okay. You should go back and and tell your boss, let me raise the labor rate by $20 an hour.
00:45:01
Speaker
Don't tell anybody and see if any customers bark at us because you can raise your labor rate by $20, keep your pay where it was, and no customer will ever say a word because they don't come to you for oil changes. They come to you with their classic car that needs a harness built. Yes.
00:45:14
Speaker
And who else is going to do it? That's probably the only thing with a classic car owner that an enthusiast won't work on is wiring and electrical stuff. Other than that, yeah. And they got boats where they're putting in new consoles and building harnesses. So obviously, these people have disposable income.
Pricing and Expertise in Automotive Repair
00:45:31
Speaker
So that's not going to matter to them anyways. They should be $350 an hour for that. Easy.
00:45:36
Speaker
ah yeah so Just like I want to go shake that owner and be like, bro, come to some training, come to some classes, right or just come to Friday night shenanigans and let us berate you and shame you into raising your rates. I mean, you know, RYR 2025, right? so yeah it's but you know So last week, ah we had a problem with our garage door. okay And it would randomly, as it rolls up, you'd just hear this loud bang.
00:46:01
Speaker
You've only got two doors in your building, right? We have well one big door that rolls up. It's an automatic door. So the door gets broken. Your door gets broken. It's either stuck up because we have to pry it up. And when it's like 12 degrees outside, that stinks. Yeah. um You know, it would never be in a situation where it's stuck down. We'll we'll get it up. Right. But it'd be cold. And that would really stink. So we ended up ah we couldn't figure out what it was. Literally, yeah like we looked at it. What? Because one minute it would come from one side. The other minute it come from the other side.
00:46:30
Speaker
Like the back of it, the front of it, like we had no idea. And so I was like, at that point, we're like, all right, well, let's just hire the garage door company, have them come out. You know, these guys see this crap all day long. I didn't even ask them how much it costs. You know, didn't matter it didn't matter. your business depends on So I had them, um, they came out and within like five minutes of the guy getting there, he's like, Oh yeah.
00:46:53
Speaker
One of your panels is cracked in half. We're like, what? And he says, yeah, look at the top panel. As it gets to this point, you would literally see these two places that would just like do that. Right. And then that's when you hear the loud bang. I thought it was like a spring was about to give out and the spring was yeah like the coil them was about to give way. And I'm like, oh, that's going to sound catastrophic type. failure So.
00:47:15
Speaker
But he knew where to look. and he knew what he looked well he He kind of, he heard it. He goes, he's heard this before. And then he just kind of looked up to every individual panel as it would roll up and keep looking at the panel as it rolled up. And he says, oh, there it is. So we just kept on making the door go up and down until he found it. He found it and he put a ah aluminum brace to go all the way across um the the the whole door.
00:47:37
Speaker
um And you know the bill was $560. Worth every penny. He was there for 30 minutes. Yeah. A piece of aluminum that cost, I don't know, maybe 30 bucks. Yeah. um So I don't want to hear people complain that they can't charge enough when they're doing this. OK, so I get it. there's you know When you're hiring somebody to come out to your house, you want them to fix it right away. right Us, they can if the car still runs, they can just take it from shop to shop to shop until they're happy with what they get.
00:48:07
Speaker
But, you know, like you're the electrician guy. Who's this competition? Who's doing what he's doing? Nobody, right? So um they charge what they charge, but I wasn't dissatisfied with the experience, you know? Yeah, it sucks. I had to pay 500 bucks. But you understand the value of that skill, right? Yeah. um Brian Pollock, who is helping me co-host this on a fair number of the episodes, he has three shops in upstate New York and Wilco Auto Care. And he does troubleshooting and like rescue diagnostics for a lot of the shops in his neighborhood. And one of them is named Carfix, actually.
00:48:45
Speaker
um and But he's always telling me stories about the the diagnostic trips he has to go make at other shops and he goes in it's like they've had it for two weeks and you know they've thrown all these parts at it and yada yada yada and then it's there's a fuse missing right or it's some that he figures it out in 10 minutes but it's $500 yeah sure because you've had it I mean And he's not trying he's not doing it to spite. He's doing it because this is what his time is worth. yeah you know He could be more productive working for his own shop, yes but you're asking him to come out to your shop because your tech spent three hours looking at something and you guys didn't figure it out. And he's got story after story like that. yeah a bitt
00:49:33
Speaker
and and he's in there He's in a part of rural upstate New York. It's not like he's in a major metro. But I mean, I guess I probably don't want people telling stories about the the Stupid shit that we miss at my shops because I'm sure it happens. All right. We all do Yeah, well if he's in anybody in the farm farm community or anywhere in that when? the When John Deere oh, yeah that court just right that's gonna have a whole new market because they're gonna be allowed to go to independence. Yep, which is like That's crazy so You gotta have Reese's. Listen, are you taking a cue off of, uh, uh, what's his name? Oh gosh, Lucas and David with the tic tacs. Cause you know, David, this is for you. I'll sit down there with those two one day and he grabbed these tic tacs and I think the Sprite, Sprite tic tacs. Yeah. and You guys are nuts, man.
00:50:31
Speaker
I'll be sure to send that sound bite. Yeah, definitely. That and opening a um can of Coke, a canned beverage, which makes David see red. He was, yeah so it's ah last night we released that little teaser trailer announcement thing for the podcast.
00:50:50
Speaker
and he was berating me and Braxton Crichter for the quality of the editing. He said that we should have let him do that because the editing makes him so angry that he almost had a seizure.
00:51:02
Speaker
so Who's CD a little, are we? Yeah, I can see that. Oh, God. so what's ah What's in store this year for you guys? where Where are you going for training this year? Do you know yet? Well, this is one elite next week. I don't know if I'll make SEMA. I'm not sure. It's always a bad time of year for me. you know got we It's the holiday season and family coming in and out and all that stuff. And so i' I'm not not really sure. Can I say expo?
00:51:36
Speaker
Okay, September? Was it September? Yeah, last weekend in September. Okay. New, bigger space. We're at the Downtown Convention Center. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So, up okay. ASDA. Walkable to a lot of shopping and bars and restaurants. Oh, right. Also, I got to tell Patty about that one. There you go. There you go. I do. i you I owe you a trip. I do. I really do. Awesome, though. Awesome. What about you, Stav? So, you know, Shop Fix last week, or early in the week, here today. And, you know, again, you know, Shop Fix in April. Quarterly, right? Yeah. and then
00:52:09
Speaker
ah ASDA in September and at some point hopefully in the year I'll have a someone to come out to the shop to do technical training and You know, I'll just have to evaluate that does that make more sense to bring someone out to our shop? And you know, we do it on ah on a weekday, you know just shut down for for for the day for the technicians to train You know, I just I really I'm trying to avoid doing training on the weekends. That's right. How many texts do you have? I Right now, three. okay so Would it be eu you and Greg's techs going to the same training if you had someone come out? No, because they need to go to a business who brews. Yeah. Oh, I want to talk about that. That's a really interesting setup that you've got. You've got a pretty big building. Yeah. And ah Greg Skolnick, what's the name of his business again? Motorwork. Motorwork. They had a fire in the building where they where they were, and he lost his building.
00:53:04
Speaker
And what ended up happening is you share the space now where yeah your business is. And he so he subleases half the lifts in the building, right? Yeah. But so, you know, we it's just under half yeah is what is what they ah they have.
00:53:19
Speaker
and So we, you know, it basically cut overhead by, you know, the like the rent and utilities, utilities cut in half rent, you know, by almost half. Yeah. And, you know, it's really, really helped directly to the bottom line for us, right? But also there's some synergy here, right? We have customers who have European cars, and their other car is, ah you know, Toyota, Honda, or Super. yeah Right. And then they have customers vice versa. So it's a symbiotic relationship. We help each other out. Nice. And they have a really good strong, you know, they have a strong culture. You get a along, you know, their, their, their texts are all professionals. I've always loved their social media presence. I mean, it's very kind of.
00:54:04
Speaker
lighthearted, yeah and kind of very positive. Yeah, that's Sarah. Yeah, yeah she she does Sarah Prattle. She does a fantastic job. Yep, she does. um You know, I wish I had a Sarah on my staff. i mean i'm telling you If I can convince her to do social media for us too, and she would do it, I'd absolutely be glad to pair to do it.
00:54:23
Speaker
uh, obviously she can't serve two masters. So, yeah you know, she, she works for motor work and stays there, but you know, she's really nice. I was a very upbeat person, not just on social media, but in person, you know, like she's, she they're, like I said, they have a ah good culture and she's part of that. Greg's that way. I mean, he's just a ah positive, happy kind of guy.
00:54:46
Speaker
Yeah, he is. But Greg is, you know, he's done a a good enough job to where he's only, he only comes in like a couple, maybe a day a week, you know, so he doesn't come in. So obviously, someone's got to bring that up, right? And he still, is he four days? Four days? Four days, yeah. Okay. Yeah, they're four days a week close up. He was like one of the originators for the four day process or theory or whatever. Well, I mean, his old location was like,
00:55:07
Speaker
Dead-end in the back of an industrial park. Yeah, like no drive-by traffic, right and He was a destination shop and there weren't a lot of very high-level destination
Stereotypes and Personal Remarks
00:55:18
Speaker
Honda shops. I think he was Honda only for a long time. right Yeah, they're Subaru also and and hunt yeah The suit that said the elite guy that was Subaru was Gary and Debbie Chambers in Colorado super repair Okay, and they've got a mammoth shop Yes, and yeah with in Colorado you said yeah, yeah, I mean is not Subaru is like the state car to Colorado it is ver muchs like the other hit is yeah And then I'm seeing my ah
00:55:48
Speaker
This might get edited out, but my ah my sister-in-law who's a lesbian like and their married couple like they just bought a Subaru and I'm like I Think if you she goes oh no't fear lesbians buy a subaru and i'm like you said it not me well i think I think that's like the the standard gift right is right, you know, let's double gets married the state gives them a Subaru Yeah so funny It's a fact ah Stereotypes. yeah and By the way, I love my sister-in-law. now Seriously, they're fantastic. Make sure that doesn't get edited out. you Make sure it stays in. yeah yeah yeah Braxton, call me if you actually hear this, because I bet he uses the AI overlord to edit and clean up and never even listens to what we say. How much are you recording? Braxton, this is you being called out.
00:56:38
Speaker
and i think it's published so okay if It gets published like this. So Braxton is the host of Auto Repair News and he does post-production and editing work for a lot of the Lucas family of podcasts. Tried to suck me in under their umbrella, but I managed to have my own small umbrella. um i'm I'm Lucas adjacent.
00:57:02
Speaker
i'm not totally under that umbrella. So anyway, you didn't want to be under the influence. Well, you know, when you start being beholden to David Roman, oh, I know that shit gets awkward real quick. Yup. You know, I'm not allowed to get vaccines anymore. Um, I have to stop paying taxes, you know, so even all the conspiracy theories, yes there are 10 foil hats all around. So yeah anyway,
00:57:28
Speaker
Well guys, thanks so much for alice great being here. It's my pleasure. yeah on This is my show. Might drag you on again in another year or so. Anytime. Confessions. see Well, yeah I'll have at the Expo, I'll have this all set up, so maybe I'll drag you back in in September. Sweet. Looking forward to it. Thanks, Ellis. David.
00:57:46
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Confessions of a Shop Owner, where we lay it all out. The good, and the bad, and sometimes the super messed up. I'm your host, Mike Allen, here to remind you that even the pros screw it up sometimes, so why not laugh a little bit, learn a little bit, and maybe have another drink. You got a confession of your own, or a topic you'd like me to cover, or do you just want to let me know what an idiot I am? Email Mike at confessionsofashopowner dot.com, or call and leave a message. The number is 704-Confess. That's 704-266.
00:58:15
Speaker
three three seven seven If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to like, subscribe, or follow. Join us on this crazy journey that is shop ownership. I'll see you on the next episode.
00:59:18
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes.